Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to PDA Life, the podcast brought to you by the PDA Society, where we'll be exploring the highs and lows of pathological demand avoidance. I'm Rachel. And I'm Sarah, and we're your hosts.
Speaker: As the UK's only PDA charity, we're bringing together PDAers, carers, clinicians and researchers to answer the questions which matter to you most. Hi everybody and welcome to this podcast episode brought to you by the PDA Society. My name's Sarah and I'm your host for the session. I'm delighted to be joined by a very special guest today. I'll do introductions shortly. We're going to be digging into what parents of PDAs need to look for when seeking their own therapy, so therapy for themselves as parents. um
Speaker: As parents or carers of PDAs, we know that you know parenting a PDA child can be massively rewarding but equally, it comes with its own unique set of challenges. As yet, there's still academic and clinical debate about PDA in general. So there may be challenges with not being believed, having that massive uphill struggle to actually be heard. You may be being criticised by well-meaning family or friends about your parenting style and you should just put some boundaries in place.
Speaker: or you may have guilt about trying to you know support your child in a world that expects them to be neurotypical. So I am delighted to be joined by Christine McGinnis, who is a licensed therapist based over in sunny California. So welcome, Christine.
Speaker: Oh, thanks for having me. I'm so excited. It's so great to be here. I i have learned so much from the Society UK because... you all are like the pioneers. I mean, you're the founder of it was from in the UK. So understanding PDA has been such a challenge for me personally and professionally because that is my caseload is all neurodivergent families and adults. So it's been such a wonderful resource. So I just wanted to thank you for that. Lovely. And it is great. You know, we're seeing a massive increase in the number of inquiries that we're getting from the US. And I know that PDA North America as well is doing some great work. So, yeah, it's really lovely to see. OK, so hopefully what we're going to do then over the next sort of 30 to 40 minutes is help parents and carers who understand and recognise the right therapist for you personally. So I guess the opening question really, Christine, is can you briefly explain what PDA-informed therapeutic support actually means in practice?
Speaker: Definitely. so we're going to differentiate here. There's the PDA-informed therapy for the kid. That is its own discussion. And I would say that's definitely a great topic for a podcast because there's so many different interventions that can be used with the children themselves. But parents truly need their own support.
Speaker: Anytime you are a caregiver of something that is misunderstood by the larger society, you're going to be dealing with enormous amounts of trauma, technically. I mean, if you want to look at it that way, you're not going with the flow. You're not you're not parenting in and in a... normal accepted way, which can be really triggering because a lot of parents then will say, oh, you should try this, you should try that. Not having lived a day in the life of a PDA parent, that can be really triggering and upsetting.
Speaker: As you had outlined it perfectly in the introduction, PDA-informed therapy is just that, is the understanding of PDA in children and adults, and that it is a nervous system response, that it's not manipulative, that it's not a child being defiant or trying to harm. I mean, there's manipulation involved PTA, but mostly to calm that nervous system response, not to hurt anybody or to get their needs met in a way that is trying to harm an adult. Like there is a lot of misunderstanding because of externalizing behaviors that PTA kiddos can have that the the child is is willful and disobedient and needs to be put in their place and
Speaker: clear boundaries. And if you just set up your parenting just like this, it would work perfectly. That's going to be a huge fail for a PDA parent. And they're going to go in there with those tools and they're going to be incredibly overwhelmed. and in fact, you're probably going to see the behaviors increase as the dysregulation of the child increases. So we're talking about really finding somebody who thankfully, like you said, PDA North America here in the States has been doing an incredible job training therapists, trying to get them to understand what this neurological response is and how we can support kids best.
Speaker: Parents need somebody who get the kid so that they can explain to the parent, hey, it's okay. And also affirm their experience. It's not just about the child. We do want to affirm the child. We do want to support the PDA kid, but we can't then say to the parent, but you have to give up your whole life, subjugate yourself to this program that's going to you know, make things better. I think that's also where this has gone a little awry and parents are feeling super overwhelmed with all these decisions they need to make and not feeling supported at all, leaving, being left out in the cold.
Speaker: And I think that's the space that therapists need to meet for parents is understanding the unique challenges of being a caregiver. Absolutely. and And I guess that sort of feeds nicely into the next question, which was why do so many parents of PDA children struggle to find the right therapist for them as a parent or a carer?
Speaker: Because if you think about it, I even look back and kind of cringe at myself. I've worked with parents and families. I was a school counselor in America you know from the start of my career, in my early 20s, before I had kids. And I think about the advice I would give parents. and It's embarrassing, really. you know It was rooted in research and all evidence-based practices, but it wasn't rooted in reality of what it being a parent was like.
Speaker: um and raising a sensitive child who needed a lot of co-regulation for me, I now I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I said some of the things I said. Those things are still being utilized and talked about today.
Speaker: And they're incredibly harmful to PDA parents because, you know, in America, we have a great debate about ABA and I'm not going to get into that whole discussion, but a lot of ABA practices are really harmful to PDA kids. You know, behavioral analysis. Yes, we're going to change in shape and we're going to. That sounds great, but if you're not understanding the nervous system response of a PDA kiddo and you're not understanding the fight flight response, you're certainly denigrate anything a parent says. You're going to be like, oh, you should just try this program or that program. And then the child's going to get worse and the parent's going to be really overwhelmed and confused why that didn't work.
Speaker: And so there is like, I mean, it's a lot of research, a lot of deep dives. I mean, for me, I learned three years ago that I was PDA. I'm sitting there and I'm like, oh my God, this is it. Oh, this is why I'm you know considered cantankerous, I guess is the word as an adult. But as a child, I was negative and difficult and, you know, all these wonderful words. But I was an internalizer. I didn't do the extreme externalizing behaviors that probably would have got me more attention. It just got me anger from adults. And I was seen as, you know, manipulative and all those other negative words. So, yeah, I think if parents are are getting conflicting information, they're getting not helpful information. If they're with a therapist that that also doesn't connect with them, you know, even if I meet a PDA parent, like I do consultations. So if I meet with a PDA parent and we don't have that flow or that click to our communication, it's not going to be really helpful either. i want them to feel that initial safety.
Speaker: You know, when you meet a good person a person that just fits that goodness in you, that you're just like, oh, yeah, you get it yeah They need that, too. And that's that's and that's just intrinsic. That's not something we can define or like say, oh, a therapist needs to be like this. And it's it's really just finding that person that makes them feel safe.
Speaker: Absolutely. And, you know, and we've spoken about how important it is to get somebody who understands PDA as a therapist. and What are potentially some of the risks of working with somebody who doesn't understand PDA?
Speaker: Oh, that could be really harsh because they're going to recommend the the traditional parenting interventions that you would do with a kid that's going off the rails. You know, if you're seeing ah a kiddo that that's struggling, say, with drug addiction and, you know, you might.
Speaker: do some really like intense interventions of, you know, setting clear boundaries and not ah not having discussion about it. You set the rules, like teaching parents to be firmer parents.
Speaker: You do that with a PDA kiddo. They're going to go off the rails. They need the opposite. They need collaboration. They need to know meaning behind punishments. They need to actually be talked to like even a nine or seven year old needs to be talked to like an adult and communicated as such because they don't see hierarchies. But they're going to be confused by you're talking to them like, okay, little kid, like you're going to do this. you know They're going to get overwhelmed very quickly with that. And that language is going to create uncertainty in them and make them really scared.
Speaker: Why is mom talking like a weirdo? like What happened to her? Where did my mother go? you know and getting this advice to say certain phrases and say certain things and do it like this. And suddenly they become a different person and the PDA kid is going to freak out.
Speaker: That is going to terrify them. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because I was thinking of it more from the perspective as the parents, you know, they're not going to be getting what they need. They're not going to be getting their needs met from the therapy.
Speaker: But then there's a knock on effect of following the advice of somebody who doesn't understand PDA. Yeah. And you've just made things 10 times worse. You've just thrown a whole can of petrol on the fire. so Well, and you know, that leads into also I think there's a twofold job and in and therapeutic work with PDA parents, which is not only are you helping them with their nervous system response, which is greatly triggered by all this stuff that's happening in society to them, to their child. but also you' are dealing with them not knowing what to do. So there's it is a lot of psychoeducation and how to support PDA.
Speaker: What are some of the things that work? What are some of the things that help? I feel like parents, when they come to me, not only do they want the therapeutic support and the trauma work that we'll talk about in a minute, but they also just want concrete tools.
Speaker: What do i do? How do i work with this? How do I handle a child who's who's physically stronger than me and is and is hurting me? Simple, like basic things that are, you know, just innate in the in the relationship that they need to create. So I think it's, yes, it's complicated. It's not a simple,
Speaker: it's it's it's a lot of work and a lot of research and a lot of learning. So if we move on then and have a think about what to look for in a therapist, um you know, I know when we chatted before, you spoke about attunement. What does therapist attunement actually look like for a PDA parent?
Speaker: So when they meet, I mean, hopefully they find somebody who's willing to give them a free consultation. i There was a great debate in a therapist Facebook group last week about it. at the you know The moderator had to close the group because people were so inflamed about it. But I really think that it's essential for PDA parents to be able to meet the person.
Speaker: What are you feeling when you talk to them? Do you feel safe? Do you feel like they hear you? Are they cutting you off mid-sentence to tell you more information that you need to know rather than fully hearing the problem or concern? Are they ah are they really like feeding you back with,
Speaker: Wow. Yeah, I'm hearing that. I also hear this. And and hearing what's also under so underneath what the parent's trying to share. It's hard to put this into words, what attunement looks like. I like to demonstrate it for other therapists, like how you affirm. Because it's really like letting the parent know, this is an experience I understand.
Speaker: And I'm not going through your exact one, but I can see why this is causing so much change. stress for you and why you would need therapeutic support. You're giving them that understanding that you get it, that yeah you're in it with them, that you're in the trenches with them, that they're not alone anymore, that they're not doing this by themselves.
Speaker: Yeah. So you've mentioned a few things there that we'd probably call green flags. are there any other sort of green flags that You know, you could recommend, you know, sometimes you just get that instant connection with somebody. Sometimes, you know, it's the rapport that they build with you very quickly. um And you you do. Well, certainly I feel it, um you know, but are there any other things to look out for positive things? And then we'll we'll think about some red flags potentially.
Speaker: So I think it's really like they understand PDA. So when the parent's talking about it and the therapist reflects back to you, they're not like, oh, well, that sounds like a kid that's just trying to get, you know, trying to get your attention. Maybe you should look at it from that perspective. Oh, they're dismissing. I'm actually giving you red flags, but they're you know they're not they're hearing they're hearing exactly what it is. So the the PDA parent is explaining what their child else is doing, right? They're explaining the behaviors at home, what's happening. And like here's a great example. Parents will frequently say this. I'm frustrated because the school said they're doing great at school and then they come home and I'm like, yep, because all day they have been masking and pretending and, and, and the parent will say, oh my gosh, that's exactly what they said. Mom, I have to pretend all day to be good kid. Now I get to be bad kid. And I'm like that. And then suddenly we're off on a, you know, off on a roll. Like I'm seeing exact, I'm reflecting back literally what's happening in their house because they're,
Speaker: Yeah, that's what PDA kids go through every day. That's what I went through being a PDA or myself. So I know what that is. I know that feeling of keeping it all in all day. And then you get home and you're a raging crazy person because you've you've had to fake it. You had to pretend you had to. You, oh my gosh. I mean, the hierarchy is having to, yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. When I was young, you had to shake hands and give eye contact and be polite. And teachers could be rude as anything to you, but they you had to be polite to them. There was a lot of that misattunement between you know adults and children when I was younger. And it still exists. And so it that's the green flag. they they They immediately, you're reflecting back and then this happens and they go, yes, that.
Speaker: Yeah. You get it. They can give you concrete examples of stuff that is happening in your life, in your real world. Yeah, I mean, and that is just so validating and reassuring as well. Just, oh.
Speaker: Reassuring. I think that's another huge green flag. You get off the call and nothing's changed in your environment. It's all exactly the same. But you now are reassured that you're doing the right things, that you're supporting in the best possible way. A lot of times parents have great instincts and they know what they're doing is right.
Speaker: And they'll come in for coaching because I do coaching too, where they can just drop in, meet with me for, you know, an hour session, drop out. It's not like, you know, therapeutic, but it's more, Hey, we're realizing he dropped a friend group. And is that bad? and I'm like, well, why? And then we go into why? And I'm like, no, that friend group was using him. Oh my God. He's actually smart. He's getting rid of them. Oh my gosh, this is great. And the parents like, we thought so too. Oh, but we hear like they ditch a friend group. Now suddenly there's a problem. I'm like, Oh no. And Stuff like that, like really just getting reassurance that their instincts are correct. Parents are really smart.
Speaker: They know their kid. Yeah. Gosh, you must see such a lot of emotion because, you know, when somebody validates your experience, it's just like, you know I think I just burst into tears. I see a lot of that well quite is emotion.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. I do. i start crying sometimes because it does feel validating to have somebody mirror back like, yeah, we're all in this. This, yeah you know, it's really. When you've not been believed for so long, potentially to have somebody actually believe you and say, i hear you. I know what you're going through. Wow.
Speaker: Huge. Well, and that you're not a bad parent anymore. And that's therapy in itself. That's therapy right there because sometimes they do meet with people who are shaming them.
Speaker: You know, there is a lot of shame involved in, oh, you're not doing clear, constructive feedback and then you're not then initiating the behavioral intervention. Like, oh my gosh, you're parenting. Oh, you know, they get that from schools and from other people and other parents. Yeah. So I guess the red flags really are the exact opposite of the green flags that we've just talked about. That's great. Yeah, we're not even understanding it, like completely missing the boat, like being like, oh yeah, it sounds like you really could use some parenting skills.
Speaker: Yeah. that Excellent. Oh dear. So and moving on to sort of training and clinical clinical orientation, what types of training or approaches tend to align well with PDA informed support? Yeah.
Speaker: I love trauma-informed approaches. Parts work is a wonderful intervention. There's several ways to do it. IFS is like the buzzword right now, internal family systems, but that's it's been around forever. So there's structural disassociation, which is Jana Fisher's, Jenea Fisher. I can never say that poor woman's name. She has a wonderful model that addresses that. Looking at ego states, looking at... um EMDR work. I'm also certified in EMDR.
Speaker: And there is trauma behind this. All the reasons we just outlined, schools are invalidating them. Their child is having externalizing behaviors, yelling or or punching or fight flight but you know expressions that then are alarming to a parent and scary. And so they're experiencing trauma.
Speaker: and And then if you look at historically, if you, let's say you grew up in a household that was alcoholic and chaotic, and there was a lot of yelling and you're now with a child who in theory seems chaotic and your body's going to feel that again.
Speaker: and it's going to be doubly, doubly harmful. They're going to feel it twice. And so I do really recommend trauma work for parents, especially to explore previous themes that have come up in their life that would make someone yelling at them actually really a flight fight response for them, D responds for them because the whole goal is to co-regulate and actually be able to be calm and be able to be like, yes, I see that you're I see you're inflamed. I'm going to go in the next room because I know that keeps you calmer. I'm going to walk away like staying in that tone of voice and being very real rather than. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. If they're freaking out, the kid is certainly not going to feel any better. And that episode is going to go on for a long time as they keep feeding off each other.
Speaker: So for me, the goal is making sure the parent is in the strongest possible place to come back and be able to co-regulate. And when I see parents do that work,
Speaker: And then they come in into session and their voice is calmer. Even explaining a situation that was upsetting with the kiddo is like, yeah, I'm frustrated. They wouldn't go to school again, but they're like, yeah. And they're talking in this totally different tone of voice. And then they're like, and then I was shocked because usually that would go on for a week, but we talked and we had a good talk about it. There was something going on in the classroom and I validated them. And then they went to school today. It was so great. I'm like,
Speaker: See how that is. It's amazing. Look what you did. And you know, it's so fun. It's so fun to see them like slowly uncover like their worry, their fear, their anxiety, their panic and replace it with, yup, this is my kid, but I'm here and I'm here for it.
Speaker: Oh, it's for me, it's, it's incredible. And it doesn't solve the problem. Like I don't want people to think this is Pollyanna time. Like everybody's all better now. But it really improves the situation greatly when the parent has that level of support. Yeah.
Speaker: Brilliant. Lovely. um How much does lived experience like yours matter in a therapist? i i had really blame yeah I don't want to say, oh, you have to find a PA or, you know, I think it's huge in that.
Speaker: I can also like really tell a parent, yeah, yeah, that you're right. That's what's happening. And I can tell you why, because I had that experience. However,
Speaker: Lived experience only goes so far because that's just my lived experience. I didn't live Johnny's lived experience. I'm not even a boy. So I don't know what his lived experience is like. I didn't grow up in Omaha, Nebraska. Say I'm coaching someone across the country. I don't know what their stressors are. I don't know what their life looks like. So lived experience is helpful. And I think, honestly, lived experience training is huge. I think people who have lived through this experience have do have PDA themselves. Training other therapists is...
Speaker: so valuable because you can give that real deep insight that others can't. But for a therapist, I think you just need attunement, empathy, and a deep understanding of it.
Speaker: You know, I consulted with a therapist last night, a child therapist who was looking for more parenting skills stuff to hand off. And I was like blown away with how intuitive they were and how they saw like this expressive arts could work and how they could do these team things with the parent and the child. Like,
Speaker: And they don't have PDA. And it was beautiful what they were sharing. i was like, oh, I want to be with you all afternoon. That sounds lovely. Like, yeah you can tell she really got it. And she's not PDA herself.
Speaker: So, you know, I don't think it's required. I think it's just you have to be that kind of person that really embraces someone else's experience, too. And take it all in, not just...
Speaker: have that that that, you know, the flat affect of a therapist where you're just like, where you're separate. You gotta be all in with a PDA family. There's no, you're the therapist and you're over here. There's definitely more adjoining that I think is necessary, way more than the lived experience piece. They can get that from me. Other therapists can come get consultation from PDA, you know, lived experience therapists, but they they can definitely do the work if they attune well.
Speaker: Lovely. and Thinking about nervous system awareness, you talk about reading your own nervous system. What does that actually mean? Oh, for me, I learn very quickly like if I can work with someone or not.
Speaker: um If I'm feeling activated, if i'm feeling like if I'm feeling anxious in the presence of another person, there's something. It's not about them. It's about me. i first of all own it. It's recognizing that I'm having an experience that's causing anxiety.
Speaker: you know disruption in my own system if i'm having that i will tell a family wow what you just brought up brought up a whole bunch of stuff for me too oh i gotta take a second let me contain that and put that aside so i can be present with you we have to be aware of our own our own responses because if they cause counter transference and then we're putting on what we're feeling onto the parent And so it's something that therapists, you know, we're trained in it in school about countertransference, but I don't think we somatically notice it as much as we should.
Speaker: i do. i mean, and that's just my experience as a PDA or autistic ADHD is I feel everything. So I will feel what you're feeling. which can be extremely productive in therapy because I can mirror it and give it back to you and let you know I'm seeing it and why. But there's also the other experience where I'm feeling what you're feeling and it's causing a response in me.
Speaker: I need to be aware of that and I need to recognize it and I need to share it with the client. If it's something big, then I need to take a minute. You know, or join with them. Like ah a good example is grief. I have a client who lost their dad. i lost my dad. We're sitting there crying about the experience.
Speaker: They, at the end of the session, you know, I teared up. I'm not sobbing with them. They're sobbing. I'm tearing up because I'm thinking of my loss of my own dad. At the end, I'm thinking i'm i'm sharing with them. That made me tear up. I'm i'm you know listening to hearing about your dad because I lost my dad too. And then suddenly we're together like, oh, you did so you know what it feels like. Oh, that feels so much better to me.
Speaker: Great. Now we're in it. And so, I mean, this is unique to you know to autistic and ADHD clients needing to know you understand it, understand the meaning behind it. I think that's really important. And my nervous system is the one that explains it to me.
Speaker: It gives me the information. Yeah, so for people who are perhaps not as in tune with their own nervous system as as you are, what might a yes or no response feel like in the body?
Speaker: So a great one would be you have a welling. Like if you have that feeling, you know, I wish I could describe it, that feeling when someone makes you angry or upset and suddenly your whole body goes like tense or you're or you're you're finding yourself clenching your hands or you notice that when you're anxious, your palms sweat and suddenly the client shares shares a story and um your palms start getting sweaty.
Speaker: These things are happening to people all day long and they're just not, in like you said, as in tune to their you know nervous system responses. But there really are somatic cues that we give off all the time.
Speaker: And really starting to notice what's happening in the therapeutic setting is, I think, so valuable for therapists to do. Because what are you bringing in? Because what if what information are you sharing that's tainted by your own experience? Yeah.
Speaker: You know, like what if that child started crying about their dad and suddenly I was incapable of providing therapy to that because I recently lost my dad. I would have to check it because I would want to be, you know, as effective as I could be.
Speaker: Yeah. um We mentioned briefly before about the fact that it can be so helpful to have what I would call a chemistry session with the therapist beforehand to see if you're going to be compatible. and If a parent only has, say, 15 minutes to have that sort of initial therapy,
Speaker: chemistry meeting what should they prioritize asking what's your belief system about pda therapist says what's pda maybe that's not a good shape yeah red flag right flag um or they're like or what they share doesn't feel comfortable to the parent you know i really do think what do how do you feel about neurodiversity You know, I think those questions are really important because it should align with the parents' belief on it.
Speaker: You know, and again, i don't have like a distinct answer what that should be. I think each family gets to decide what it is works best for their family. And so they might not know what that is. And they might be completely lost. Like, I don't know what to do with this, but the therapist should be able to answer that question comprehensively. I guess if they're not comfortable answering it, then that's quite telling in itself. They should have their own framework. They should know.
Speaker: ah with PDA, i don't I'm not necessarily a gentle parenting person. I actually believe in having some boundaries, but I also believe in having meaning behind them, like having family discussions, having a family framework of what our goals are, what our needs are, and discussing that. So I would go into that with a family and explain what my belief system is unsupporting.
Speaker: Yeah. And that's so important because that's not necessarily something I would have thought of, but go prepared with the questions in mind that you want answers to. Because 15 minutes will go like that. so Yeah. yeah john This is the other thing I'll recommend. Don't go into the whole story because...
Speaker: Again, that's the therapeutic session. You're not going to get your questions answered. You're going to give the therapist information, but they don't need to know that. They need, you need to know what, who they're about. And I think that's more effective than even saying, oh, so Johnny's having these problems. It's, you know, at home school life is going well though, but there's some issues with peers. And then they go into a whole story. It's eating up that time where you could be finding out that information.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm so busy listening to your answers. I'm so intrigued by all. It's absolutely fascinating. It is. I fascinate on it too. So I get you. Oh, yeah. it's So incredible.
Speaker: So what are the signs in that short call if it is a good fit? We've covered some of them, but anything else you'd like to add? I think it's just, you know, understanding how they work too. I mean, if you know your family's really got a lot going on and ah if they have like a 48-hour cancellation policy, I don't have that.
Speaker: I have a 24-hour please let me know policy because I am so... packed, I really would like to fill it with somebody who needs some some information. But i don't I don't penalize. I don't say to parents, oh, you you can't make it today because your kid's home throwing up. like I'm not like, oh, sorry, that was your session time. we really i work with them on it. So I think there's a lot of things like, what are your parameters? what are your you know If you you have somebody who's really rigid about boundaries, about 48-hour cancellation,
Speaker: and you know emergencies happen in your family really quick, you really should be with somebody who's like, well, we're going have discussions about that. Obviously, repeated cancellations will be a problem. But if it's a one-off, I'm certainly not going to you know penalize you for it.
Speaker: Yeah. So I guess looking at websites in advance, that sort of thing, because I guess you can tell a lot from the tone and sort of messaging in websites as well. If the terms and conditions are the first thing that you see before you see me that's probably quite telling. Well, and read them. Like, don't go into the like a lot of times people will take up time asking me questions that are right on my website. Like, what's the cost of your sessions? How can I pay you? Like, don't take your time up with that. You want to get to know the person, go to their website. It's all there. And if it's not there, that's another tell.
Speaker: Anybody who doesn't post their rates. Sorry. PDA people need upfront. You need direct. You need honest. You need straightforward. Yeah. I would be careful with anybody that's kind of, you know, not giving you everything right away.
Speaker: Lovely. Okay. Um, and, um, What mistakes would you say parents commonly make when choosing a therapist? Cost, unfortunately. i mean, I would rather you get a really incredible you know, expensive session, then spend six months with somebody who is, you know, through your health system, but they're not understanding you. They're not getting it They're confused every week. Every week you come in, they're not even sure your name or whatever it is. If they're overwhelmed and they're not knowing you, you wait your time is money and your your life is important. And I know it's expensive to go out of, you know, the
Speaker: for us in America at a network or for you going out of your national health system. But I think it's really worth the money with somebody that you really gets it because in a few sessions you could have everything and you know, you're good, you're good to go. i you know, I think be careful of not, you know, people spend any amount on their child, but they don't spend it on themselves. Yeah.
Speaker: You're important. You're the front line. You're it. So, and I know that's not fair. Some people like I provide pro bono, I provide, you know, low fee sessions, finding somebody who does that, if you can't afford it, like really researching people who do this kind of work for low fees, I will definitely provide that if the family needed it. So yeah it's, it's doing that sort of research to find,
Speaker: Find the person that that really will help you and invest in it. It's well worth the money for to have that framework for your family, I feel. Or find groups. like Be creative, too. like It doesn't have to be one-on-one therapy.
Speaker: Honestly, finding a group with other parents in it that's PDA-informed, whoa, that could just be a game changer. So don't limit yourself just to individual therapy. That's really good. Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. Fantastic. Fantastic. So unfortunately we may get it wrong from time to time. um And we may choose somebody who it turns out isn't as good a fit as we thought. So what would you say to somebody who feels like, you know, maybe I'm the problem after they've had a bad therapy experience? You are never the problem. It is our job, our job to make sure you feel safe, secure, and okay.
Speaker: And if you're with somebody who's making you feel like you're the problem, They're the problem. um that's not It's our job to be 100%. You could come in a session any which way you want. I'm supposed to support you, not the other way around. So if you're if you're walking away with that feeling, you're with the wrong therapist.
Speaker: You are never the problem. That is our job. That's why we're here. So yeah, if you walk away feeling that way, Yeah. And a polite email saying, thanks, but no, thanks. That was not what I needed. And you can leave.
Speaker: Don't. And that's a one another thing I hear a lot like, oh, I didn't want to text you. Like we we had a problem with our payment system and a client reached out. Oh, my God, you charged me twice. I didn't want to tell you. I'm like.
Speaker: Didn't want to tell me. That's horrible. Let me go fix it and send you the money. What what do you mean you to want to tell me? Well, I don't want to hurt your feelings. I'm like, that my payment system is broken? No, tell me. so or even things like, well, you really missed it last session. I shared something with you and you didn't get it.
Speaker: I love hearing that feedback. Thank you. That's huge. That's really helpful. Or that there's just a huge misattunement. I don't think you and I click. Great. Let me give you some referrals. Maybe there is somebody that has, I'd rather you be with the person that you really get help from.
Speaker: i think that's the thing. It doesn't have to be me. It could be anybody, but I want it to be that person that you really click with. So if it's not me, tell the therapist. It's okay. we We can handle it. And if we can't handle it, we shouldn't be in the biz. Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, brilliant. I cannot believe we've been chatting for 30 over half an hour. So we're probably more or less at time. So but if parents take away just one or two things from today, what should they be?
Speaker: Find that person that makes you feel supported and reassured. That is the biggest element to supporting a PDA kid is you feel better. You feel calmer. You go back into the ranks, ready to fight another day and supporting them and helping them get their needs met.
Speaker: So that's the key. If you leave that session feeling Oh, okay. I'm on the right path. Oh, I got a new tool today. Oh, good. Okay. I have something else I didn't know. Oh, I didn't know that about hierarchies. Oh, okay. Good. Now I know that i I can just set things up a little differently in our family than other families do. Okay. Good. You know, things like that.
Speaker: Yeah. That's all you you really need. Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Well, it's been an absolute joy chatting with you. If I ever need therapy, I know where I'm coming. so Yeah. Nah, too late. We've become friends. Oh, it's just been absolutely fascinating. Yeah, the time has gone so quickly. And, you know, I know that, you know, our listeners will benefit massively from that session. I think it's just been so reassuring and helpful. um Lots of information in there to go away and digest and massively appreciate you getting up at the crack of dawn to fit in with our timetable. So.
Speaker: It was definitely a joy for me too, Sarah. It was so much fun. I really, to to be able to connect with ah a a whole society that has affirmed me, feels like such an amazing gift. So no, this was fabulous. I loved it too.
Speaker: Thank you. And we'll pop some links and places where you can go if you want further information in the show notes. So look out for those. And again, Christine, just thank you so much. It's been absolutely brilliant.
Speaker: Oh, thank you, Sarah. It was a joy too for me.
