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Sailors Grave: Building Dunetown, A Unique Brand & Community Connections
833 Plays3 months ago
Chris and Gab Moore are the visionaries behind Sailors Grave Brewing, the East Gippsland brewery that's different in pretty much every way you can imagine: from the artwork designed by a British children's book illustrator and unusual ingredients to the amazing partnerships they've forged throughout their home region and further afield.
We invited them on to tell us about the impending arrival of Dunetown – the brewery and venue on their farmland near Cape Conran that will see them bring their original vision to life – as well as their pre-brewing life in Sydney hospo, their focus on sustainable practices and the importance of staying true to yourselves.
Before the chat with Chris and Gab, we outline our intentions for the weekly podcast and have a chat about some of the latest news from the Australian beer scene. Look out for a special guest who's very excited about the upcoming Blackman's Point Break Brewery Invitational too!
Links referenced in the show: Two-part mini-series on voluntary administrations: https://craftypint.com/news/3489/the-secret-brewer-voluntary-administration & https://craftypint.com/news/3490/the-secret-brewer-voluntary-administration-part-ii
Article on the state of play in beer, Shift Happens: https://craftypint.com/news/3500/2024-mid-year-report-shift-happens
Seeker's Tiny Tins: https://craftypint.com/news/3522/seeker-take-flight-with-tiny-tins
Holgate Brewhouse's People's Choice: https://craftypint.com/news/3521/vote-for-holgates-25-years-of-beers-peoples-choice
Sailors Grave Brewing: https://sailorsgravebrewing.com/ Point Break Brewery International: https://www.blackmansbrewery.com.au/point-break-brewery-invitational/
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Transcript
Introduction to Crafty Pint Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello, I'm James Smith. And I'm Will Zabel. Welcome to the first episode of the Crafty Pint podcast. James, why are we doing this after all this time? Many reasons will. I think, you know, it's something we've definitely discussed for a number of years. um And I think maybe I certainly was wary of doing so until we had the confidence that we could do it well. um And we've got some ah other other help on on board now.
Meet the Producer: Matt Hoffman
00:00:29
Speaker
so Shout out to our producer and editor Matt Hoffman, who many in both the Brisbane and the Melbourne beer scene will know for his ah time behind the bar. Yeah, for sure.
Why Launch Now?
00:00:38
Speaker
um and I think another reason for for doing it now is yeah we've seen over the years the change in the way people consume media, whether that's through social media, whether that's through people wanting to read less and listen more. um We're not pushing out into everything. i mean Will, how's your TikTok account going that you launched a few years ago for and for an article? uh, awfully in terms of followers, but it has destroyed my attention span and ensure that I can only consume media through podcasts. There we go. It's it's beneficial. Are you producing anything on there? No, no, just, just destroying my capacity to listen.
Podcast Goals and Format
00:01:13
Speaker
Yeah, so maybe we'll get there at some point, but one step at a time. So yeah, I mean, I think with the podcast, it's a chance to tell longer form stories. Even people within our team don't necessarily want to sit down and read one of our bigger, longer, you know, 25 minute reads or whatever. But I think people will listen to listen to a podcast. um And I think another reason for doing it has been the chance to, even though we're sort of a small core team, we do have some amazing freelance contributors around the country.
00:01:39
Speaker
who have some great local relationships and great um local knowledge. So this is a chance for them hopefully to sit down with some of their mates in the beer industry um and and sort of go deeper and tell their stories. So, you know, and I think sort of highlight the fact that we are a, we might, you know, you and I might be based here in Melbourne, but we're a publication with a national reach. So I think there's there's plenty of plenty of reasons to get involved. um Yeah, in terms of the nuts and bolts of that, so we'll have guests on every single week, episodes are out on Thursdays and we'll have this sort of introductory chat at the start which gives us a time to reflect on the news of the week and what's going on and then we can go into the longer chat with interesting people from all over the beer industry. um And I think you know it might sound a little bit illogical but you know it's no be no surprise to anyone in the current climate for both and brewing and for media. You know with good beer hunting I argue to be the world's best known beer publication going on in definite hiatus and this month that um
00:02:36
Speaker
things are challenging and certainly the Crafty Point team is the smallest it's been in five or six years so it might seem weird that we want to add another element to what we do but we actually feel I think this could be a more efficient way of going deeper on certain stories rather than trying to commit a writer you know to a week or two is investigation you get the right guests on you ask the right questions and you know you you can sort of you know maybe get somewhere in less time so to speak um And I think the other thing is, you know whilst you know the we are the the two sole remaining full-timers at Crafty Point, we do have some amazing contributors around the country. And I think, as we were discussing before, this is a good way to to get them involved.
00:03:16
Speaker
Yeah, so not every episode will be hosted by James and I. We'll also ah give it give the reins, the keys, I guess, the microphones over to team members. We've already recorded a couple of episodes in Brisbane with some really exciting people in the beer industry there. And um so it gives us a chance to tell national stories still and also, I guess, create a dynamic kind of team where everyone sort of has their own approach which we're really excited about. I think sort of yeah tell national stories from a local perspective like someone on the ground who knows these people intimately you know and and and has a really good knowledge of their local landscape because we've got some great writers out there who might only send us two or three articles a year but if they can start adding you know two or three times where they sit down with someone they know really well who's got a great story to tell
00:04:05
Speaker
um that I think, you know, that's going to be a more sort of, but you know, positive and and interesting way that I was trying to sort of, you know, beam people in. And Will, who is who's our main guest for the first episode?
First Guests: Chris and Gabba Moore
00:04:16
Speaker
Yes, so Chris and Gabba Moore from Sailor's Grove Brewing. They were a very easy first two guests to choose. They've got a really exciting story to tell, but also they're currently building their massive they're big bloody shed I think Chris calls it which should be open by the end of summer so they're really excited to talk about that and how they'll be sort of even more ingrained in the Gippsland community than they are already. Yeah and I think it's it's a chat that touches upon sustainability they're putting some interesting parts to the brewery in there to allow them to do some even more unique stuff with some of the local um other Gippsland businesses
00:04:50
Speaker
They'll be chatting about how to build and maintain
Industry Challenges and Innovations
00:04:53
Speaker
a unique brand as well. So there's loads of good stuff in there for people, whether your fans are their beers or whether you're in the industry and want to sort of get a bit of insight from their, I guess, unique approach to things. In terms of a discussion of recent news, I think we've decided we'll sort of breeze through it a little this week, given we've had so much else to talk about before we get to the main interview. It's bad to start on a downer as well. Bad to start on a downer, but essentially things do remain tough for a lot of people in brewing and hospo. Yeah, I mean two new recent VAs with Valhalla last week and then also Mighty Craft, probably one of the more significant ones but also maybe one of the more obvious ones to come potentially. It does this feel like sort of the laces step in a sort of long drawn out sort of descent there but I mean certainly voluntary administrations we addressed that in a two-parter towards the end of last year trying to sort of broaden out and deepen the discussion around um I guess not so much an issue but something that's very much been part of the story of
00:05:48
Speaker
um craft beer sadly over the last couple of years um i guess at the same time though i mean much as they seem to be the articles that people flood to like there is you know we we see that from spikes in traffic every time there's a closure or sale or what have you there's still a lot of you know good stuff going on there are businesses that are that are thriving that are going well there's a lot of positive stuff happening out there as well i guess which we try to address in uh um peace shift happens sort of look i guess trying to balance things and say here's Here's how things are on one side. Here's how they are now. um Having said that, you know, we were hoping that maybe the start of the new financial year would see the, you know, some of the, some of the darker side of the industry slow down which hasn't been the case but um but certainly, you know, and I think, you know, you've, we've we've also found
00:06:33
Speaker
some of the interviews we've been doing, some of the coverage, it hasn't necessarily what you'd have been expecting when we got into writing about beer. I mean, we've bumped up against a few and NDAs when trying to research stories, which doesn't feel very crafty. It used to be a lot easier to get people on the phone. All of the hour you can email questions via someone else or things like that is is ah much more common. But you know, on the sort of, I guess, the positive side of it, in terms of innovation, it doesn't feel like that that's dropped off at all. And I would sort of argue that it's picked up, if anything, like whether it's ingredients. We wrote a really fun story about a new yeast from La Lomond and also Scarpment Lab out of Canada. and And just the sort of way businesses are doubling down on innovation, bringing new products to life and the excitement that's still causing within the industry is a really cool thing to watch. yeah like say Whether it's ingredients, whether it's process, whether it's helping people become more efficient or whatever, there is all that stuff going on. I'm i'm not sure whether it's people's nature or whether it's the algorithms of social media and that mean less people are you know looking into these these articles, but certainly there is... ah wealth of amazing stuff going on and you know we certainly are doing our best to try and you know bring all those stories as well and there was one that you really enjoyed this week about and something that Seeker from Wollongong do. Yeah so that's a very fresh story at Seeker they've decided to put large beers into 250 milk cans which isn't a common weight by craft beer really anywhere in the world but the idea being that
00:08:05
Speaker
you know as a small independent brewery what they're good at is making oat cream ipas and pastry stout and big flavour forward beers and they want to still do that and they want to provide it in a way that maybe doesn't break the bank to use their words but also you know in a way that's a bit more enjoyable like yeah enjoyable in the middle of the week or any day of the week like you get these big beers and you don't want to drink all them so it's not just a sort of cost of living decision it's also a decision based around
00:08:36
Speaker
you know making beer those kind of beers more accessible and the tasting paddles for that for the the home yeah exactly flight uh a flight they're calling it which which i think is good it's interesting people love the idea or hate it like there's the comments sort of divided down the middle some people are sort of be people within the industry saying why has no one done this before other people saying this would never work Some people are saying, I've wanted to buy beer like this for my whole life. Why do I have to you know buy a 15% stout and a 440ml can? yeah So it's really cool to see that kind of innovation still really go on the forefront.
Crafty Pint's Collaborations and Community Support
00:09:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah for sure. And you'll be all these articles that we've discussed are on the beer news pages of Crafty Pipe. We'll also include some details in the show notes.
00:09:20
Speaker
um So, yeah, I mean, essentially, you know, we'll be looking at everything going on in the industry, um the good and the bad, and but never the indifferent. um And and yes, so um and before we get to the the main chat with with Sailor's Grave today, um one thing you we'd love to mention, which I think is a really and positive story for just craft beer. Generally, um you may be aware that Hallgate Brewhouse, and they're closing in on 25 years of brewing. the full quarter century, which few independent breweries have made it to. Yeah, it's remarkable. and So they've been releasing 25 limited release beers for the year, and we've partnered with them on a People's Choice for this. So we have, I think, 14 of their old recipes that aren't yet part of the 25 beers lineup.
00:10:09
Speaker
um and you can now vote for your favourite to be re-brewed today, and one winner who like picks the winning beer will get a brew day and a bunch of other stuff from Hallgate at some point in the future, so you'll be able to find that on the Crafty Pint website and socials. I heard that Paul Hallgate is going to only paint pick the wheat beers though. so i say as to It has to be a wheat beer. Why tell a heifer Weissen or a dunkel Weissen, I believe, is that is the only options that are going to make it. So enjoy the chat with Chris and Gab at Sailor's Grave. We're very lucky to have an advertiser for the first episode that's in the middle there. It's courtesy of Blackman's Brewery and their upcoming Point Break Invitational. We've got a special guest in there from the beer industry. who I won't give them away either. but we'll We'll see which listeners can spot them. Maybe they are. They are um they do have a fake name. ah So yeah, we're really grateful for their support and for the support of anyone, whether it's breweries, bars, bottle shops, ingredient suppliers, readers through our Crafty Cabal membership program who support what we do. If you'd like to help our independent journalism continue, then you can support us too. Details are in the show notes. So here's Chris and Gav from Sailor's Grave. um Enjoy the chat and we'll see you every Thursday from here to Eternity.
00:11:37
Speaker
Okay, we're here with k Chris and Gab from Sales Grove. Thanks for joining us. Pretty momentous time for you guys at the minute. Do you want to tell us a little bit why? It's a momentous time for Sales Grove. It is. It feels more chaotic than momentous to be honest, but we're building a giant shed. So a new brewery out on the farm. So a lot bigger than the old brewery, lots of new kit, new bar. um Hopefully it's going to be beautiful. I mean, it was always the plan to have the farm brew. But um when we got started, I think nearly eight years ago, it just didn't happen. It just couldn't happen. We just didn't have enough money at the time. And so we had to kind of move into the old butter factory, which has been our home for the last seven years, which has been a great home.
00:12:26
Speaker
But it's really great to realise the original dream of like having the farm very. And this farm is Junetown? Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to explain the name? Well, that's what we've coined it because um the location is in between the um tertiary and secondary dune. And so we called it Junetown. Yeah, sort of in the lee of a couple of dunes, the shelter there on the coast. And it explains exactly where it is. So it's close to the family farm, but also your spiritual home of Cape Conan. Is that right? Yeah. So it's um in between Marlow and Cape Conan is on the family farm. um And and that's actually where we got the name Sailor's grave. um So between the 20s and 80s, there was like a little sea shanty
00:13:21
Speaker
um town down at Cape Conran, where lots of families had little shacks. And um when I was growing up, there used to be a bar set up in the jeans. And so when we lost, I'm still sure. Oh, yeah. Literally a table and a keg, basically. But I used to pass my dad um back and forth forwards from the beach. And um so when we moved back, I don't know that kind of sense of freedom and that, you know, time of a non nanny state or where you could do whatever you want.
00:13:59
Speaker
really spoke to us. So that's where the sounds grave came from. And so you're moving the entire operation out of the butter factory or have it going to have two bases? No, we definitely won't have two bases. We would fall apart yeah to do that. um No. So we're building a whole new brewery. So we have to get the new one up and running before we close the old one. But yes, we'll be shutting down all bus completely. and moving the kit from there or a whole new? site It's a whole new kit. It's exciting kit actually lets us do a lot of the things we've dreamed about doing as far as using local grains, connecting with local farmers in a much more meaningful way than just, you know, local seaweed or local fruit, you know, a more substantive way. Yeah. So there's parts of it that are sort of built to allow for that or how I imagine it's very customized.
00:14:45
Speaker
It sort of is. It's kits that's been done before plenty of times. So it's it's a ah four vessel kit, but it's got a cereal cooker. So, you know, you often see it can be either used for doing lagers, doing decoction. You can move the mash to the cereal cooker and cook it. But it can be used for adjunct brewing, which sounds like an industrial thing, but it's not. I mean, I could go on about adjunct brewing a little bit if it's not too boring. But Go ahead. Yeah, cut it. If it's boring, cut it. I mean, a cereal cooker, one, it lets us use local raw grains that aren't being malted, but we will be malting our own grain as well and making a lot of mistakes and the cereal cooker will let us make mistakes and still be able to process that grain. But there was a great story I heard about a small corn farming family, heirloom corn farming family in
00:15:34
Speaker
the states um who, you know, they got too small for basically supplying the large scale supply chains there and opened a brewery. And they really wanted to replicate a simple beer with provenance, I guess is the thing. So they talked about how, you know, when the German immigrants came out to the US um and stu wanted to start brewing and replicating pilsners, they struggled because of these high protein six row barleys that they had to work with. And so they put in corn and it wasn't, corn wasn't done to make a cheap, you know, to cheapen a product was to balance out the protein levels. So there's this sort of backstory of um the American light lager, which actually has integrity and they wanted to do it with heirloom corn. They started working with corn breeders who'd been for a hundred years, had this hundred years corn trial breeding lower and lower oil corn. So they could just use it straight off the farm.
00:16:28
Speaker
They grew their barley, they grew their corn, but they're making an American light lager. And for me, that's that's an exciting kind of direction for craft beer. It's not about the product being weird. It's about the integrity of the ingredients, making something simple. Yeah, there's a big swing back, I think, towards that as well, people understanding that you know, flavors we thought were simplistic were actually more nuanced and things like that. I think there's a reason corn might be in a beer and it's not just to to to make it lighter. yeah Yeah, to make it lighter. Albus is um a corn town. They've been growing corn there for probably, I reckon, 100 years. Corn and maize.
00:17:05
Speaker
corn amaze and um a really long time ago, my grandfather and a lot of local farmers set up a corn cooperative, a seed corn cooperative, which is still going today. And they're one of like the world's leading corn researchers. So there is heaps of research crops that are essentially being fed to cattle afterwards. Strange crops. Yeah, but we've got the privilege of being able to use that corn yeah in beers and you know test them out in new kind of...
00:17:40
Speaker
beer styles and things like that. so So it's a long answer to this special hint. A cereal cooker lets us, you know, that that one piece of equipment lets us tap in more to the both the heritage and the local kind of product, I guess. so it's That's exciting for us. We've also bought Voyager's first one tonne malting system. OK, I was wondering where that might end up. Yes, it's been sitting in their shed, I think, for couple of years. They have been using it a bit, yeah. Yeah, so we'll be um taking that. So that's really exciting and scary. And we're going to stuff it up a lot. yeah luckily with nice but him brad did along the way as well yeah yeah But we're not selling it, luckily, so we're just making beer out of it. But I think it's pretty amazing, like there's a lot more focus now on um
00:18:24
Speaker
the the world of grain, like in beer. yeah And um using different grains can encourage different types of farming, which is sort of better yeah over time for the planet. And I guess it's something that Stu's been really pushing. And it sounds like you're going to be able to do that in a more localised way yes within Gippsland as well. Because I know Stu was very keen to sort of get more localised molting set up. So there's less of that sort of miles of actually bringing grain from, you know, to have to bring it to the riverina and then send it back out. So is that that's the plan. Yeah, and Stu's being from when we first met Stu, we went up and checked out Voyager when they were quite young. And he's always been so supportive of our kind of so maybe silly dreams. It seems silly dreams or far-fetched dreams. He's just like, yeah, no, go for it. Go for it, you know.
00:19:09
Speaker
And is it to sort of explore different flavours? Is it to work with more local farmers? Is it to sort of like educate people about these different sort of grains? I think we've always been about trying to create a really a provenance based beer product. And we have tried to do that as much as we can within the constraints that we have. But, you know, the four ingredients of beer, grain is a very big one and we haven't had that kind of connection yeah so that is been banging on about us for years that's the biggest driver for us is um creating a real local product yeah and in terms of dune town what about the hospitality side of it so what um you're hoping to open before summer or definitely i yeah because i i we will be open before summer yes
00:20:00
Speaker
Now, we're right in the thick of it now. It feels pretty nuts, but yes, it will be open. There will be a hospitality site, beautiful looking bar that we've collaborated with local designers and tradespeople on. And it's going to be lovely, big outdoor space, a food offering that we're still arguing back and forth about. Discussing. discuss But it will be it'll be great. Yeah, it doesn't feel that yeah amazing at the moment because they're in the thick of, you know, the stress of it, but it will be great. Very much feels like build it and they will come because we are really remote. So we're taking a ah big punt and just go, well, if we create this really beautiful thing, then hopefully people will come and visit them. Like they're, you know, installing how many taps, 16 taps.
00:20:49
Speaker
Yeah, 16 taps. Four Luka taps. Four Luka taps, that's right. Which is a huge, pretty indulgent. Yeah, I think it's the thing of, whenever I'm feeling stressed, I just get out this photo of this shiny stainless steel, looks like a 1950s coffee machine Luka font with the Luka taps on it. and and for Everything feels all right again. I know when he's pressed to, he's looking at the picture of Luka. But, I mean, you're reasonably, um I guess, sort of, au fait with Hossberg. I mean, how many, sort of, sailors grave hubs do you have around Gippsland now? Like, you could, but you you had a few pop-up places, you've put your place in Mahit, you know, so you have got... So we have three um outposts, yeah one in Minyan, one in Lake Centrance and the Orbost Tap Shack. And we have a pop-up the summer. Summer.
00:21:38
Speaker
um And because, the reason we do that is because we are really remote, and Gippsland is really, really big. So we want people to be able to access our brand, you know, meaning is a really great one because it's like only a couple of hours from Melbourne, um and then Bay Centrance. And then so we can access people with our brand all over Gippsland. It's like a late line of sailors. It is. Melbourne sort of follows the coast, doesn't it? Follow the dotted line. yeah Have you found acceptance because eight years since the first beers were out? I know you had made the South East beer to sort of try and win over locals in the pubs and stuff, but how's it going in terms of being embraced? And we're just about to release our mid, our kind of
00:22:26
Speaker
how Great northern. Great southern there. Great southern, yeah. um I won't say better, but different, yeah. But our three and a half. Interesting, great. It's called the skipper. Skipper miss, yeah. Skipper mid. It's always skipper mid. But anyway, bit of a plug there. yeah um Acceptance. Look, you know, there's the, what's really interesting about living regionally is you You can have this idea that it's a very monoculture kind of environment where people are all have one particular view, but the country is really diverse. So there are people living together, rubbing shoulders, knowing each other with extremely different viewpoints. And that's part of the reason we love living in the country.
00:23:11
Speaker
But along with that comes, you know, some people are going to love us, some people are not going to love us in the country. So acceptance is mixed, but it's still our goal to be bigger and bigger in Gippsland, more than any other goal. That's our biggest goal. so and Does it help having the the generational sort of family history there with your family gap? Does it help? it I don't know, You're not sort of, you know, fly-ins or whatever. No, well, I actually have a a different last name to what I grew up with. So a lot of people still don't actually know that I'm from there. We should probably be better in the country as well. Yeah. either way You're one of those. Yeah.
00:23:56
Speaker
I don't know. i I also have roots in Orbust. My grandfather's from Orbust strangely, so I grew up in Melbourne. Me too. What's the story? my I've told you many times. My grandmother's grandfather ran the Butter Factory. Yes, that's right. yeah is out it all It all comes back to Orbust. It does. What's the centre of the universe at one point? It will be again. Yes, it will be. It is the centre. We like to think that. yeah Yeah, no, I don't know. It's acceptance is a, is a, is a very complicated three dimensional thing. um But we want more of it. Yeah. Yeah. But are you within sort of, you know, the sporting clubs, local clubs, pubs? More and more. Yeah. So it's actually the bottom pub in Orbost has been bought by a really great bunch of young people who have strong ties to the sporting community.
00:24:46
Speaker
in Orbos but they're just great young people and they're really supportive of us as well and you know it's people like that advocating for us which is really important. yeah You do have to really chip away at it though and it has been you know a long long road and you know sponsoring the local world club and but um we're getting there and we're starting to sell heaps more in Gibbs land which is all always been our hope. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that has to be the the long-term, I guess, growth trajectory for craft beer has to be winning over locals wherever you are, yeah as opposed to trying to do some sort of blanket takeover of the country. So, yeah.
00:25:24
Speaker
that the What I want is it for our beer to stop being seen as the special occasion beer, but I want to see people starting to take slabs out of the local supermarket and not just like, um you know, a four pack when the visitors come. yeah Yeah. No, I agree with the local thing. It's funny. We do. We've always tried to sell, even though we're quite small in volume, sell geographically really widely. And it is it is a weird casting the net wide and then pulling pulling back into Gippsland kind of approach but and even export. You want to build integrity and acceptance from as many people as possible and it helps you locally, but the goal is always locally.
00:26:09
Speaker
I guess Junetown will assist with that, giving you a bigger hub. level In terms of practicalities, and capacity, what's the times when it opens? Well, we had to design design it for both winter and summer. So the last thing you want is a massive room with five people in in the middle of winter. So it's it's quite an intimate indoor space that is maybe 40 or 50 people if you packed it out with a, yeah. Beautifully done. I think anyway, but that all opens up into a massive outdoor space. So in summer, you know We'd hope to have not huge 150 people there, you know kind of thing but that's a lot of people for out our way. Yeah What sort of numbers do you get for your um big weekends like the deep in the weeds? What's the numbers? Up to 300. That was 500 last year. Yeah Yeah
00:26:57
Speaker
yeah Yeah, um and those audiences are coming from all over. So that's like hyper local, Grady Gibsland, Melbourne and also interstate. so But we do get a lot of um people who are coming through on the Sydney to Melbourne route and will come, you know, especially that the Coast route to come and visit us. so the much longer, but much better drive. It takes an extra day or two, but it's 100% worth it. yeah And hopefully we're open when they cruise past, get the occasional, I've driven a long way and you're close. And in terms of and beers we be doing, like, you know, some new, some Junetown specials, or it allow you to, move you can have barrels in there like it.
00:27:42
Speaker
A little bit of everything, I think. yeah We want to continue to do interesting beers that are really drinkable. that We've always done really things with interesting ingredients, but they're pretty, we think, we hope very drinkable beers. But again, it's sort of coming and back to that focus on being finally able to focus on grain a bit more. And I guess moving with the times being a lot more um simple beers, simple lagers, simple ales with integrity. But also diversifying outside of beer as well. So I think one of the first things we'll do is a non-alcoholic beer, but um definitely diversifying into other drinks as well. And that's kind of what we're really wanting to do. like
00:28:26
Speaker
maybe like carbonated hopped waters but also mixing them with like John or kombucha or you know people who don't drink alcohol still want a really sophisticated um drink. And I think that's kind of the future. yeah So we need to kind of branch out into that as well. And have you got trials for those kinds of things underway already, or is this it's too much to add on when you're already building a new brewery and venue? A little bit dabbling, but that's going to be a big focus once we are up and running. Yeah. Yes. Cool. So we'll take a quick break and be right back.
00:29:08
Speaker
G'day listeners, Will here. I'm very excited to talk to you about a new beer festival on the calendar. It's called the Point Break Invitational. It's coming to Torquay in August. And to chat about it is my very good friend, the Bellarine Peninsula's most famed, most well-known and most respected beer writer and gossip columnist, Milo Appleby. Milo, welcome to the show. Well, I'm really excited to tell you and all of your listeners about this amazing festival, my very dear friends at Blackmans Brewery. They've been smashing out sensational beers for almost a decade now down on the surf coast and they finally brought brought it together to create their own beer festival.
00:29:53
Speaker
It's something I'm very excited about. I think there's going to be nine breweries involved, even some international names. There's one here I can see from the USA called Firestone Walker. I hear they're quite a ah big deal. And importantly, every one of those breweries coming along, they're all going to be bringing a couple of beers, one of which quite uniquely is brewed especially for the festival. Now, this is what we call in the trade a real showstopper. Now, the event, of course, is named after the action-packed bank heist thriller Point Break, which famously ends at Torquay's very own Bell's Beach. You probably remember the famous line, death on a stick out there, mate. That's right. So in the spirit of this sort of film homage, we thought it might be fun to introduce your listeners to a new way to think about beer pairing, not just the usual pairing beers with cheeses or fondues or dodgy kebabs at 3am.
00:30:50
Speaker
No, we want to pair beers with some of your favorite movies. So I'll tell you what, how about you pick the beer, something from the festival, and I will choose a movie pairing for you. What do you think? Oh, Milo, that sounds like such a good time, you know. So I've i've grabbed here. I've got a beer from a Hop Nation. It's their American Red called The Buzz. It's been a sort of member of the Hop Nation lineup since the early days. It's it's won a trophy at the ARBAs. It won a bronze medal at the World Beer Cup just a couple of months ago. it It's multi. It's full of those.
00:31:26
Speaker
American hops, it's punchy, it's piney, it's really delicious. Let's enjoy it, eh?
00:31:37
Speaker
That is spectacular, William. I love your choice there. Just rolling that around my palate, I'm getting a real tingling warmth going on. A hint of ah spice and and is that some sweetness, potentially some some fruit going on there as well? I think, you know, much like bouncing a tennis ball against a brick wall, this is a beer that you could really enjoy on your own. ah But perhaps it's better shared with a partner, William. I i think there could be no better pairing for this beer than the coming of age classic, American Pie. Wow. but There you go. Now that's a movie that takes me back.
00:32:18
Speaker
Well, there you go. A fun new way to think about beer pairing and movies. So I'd love to see you, Will, and all of your listeners, your wonderful listeners, down at Blackmans Brewery on the 17th of August for the Point Break Brewing Invitational. Tickets are on sale now. ah You can snap them up by visiting blackmansbrewery.com.au. Great. I can't wait to be there. gee Cheers. Cheers.
00:32:50
Speaker
And we're back with Chris and Gab from Sailor's Grave. ah We've sort of focused on what's next for Sailor's Grave a fair bit, I guess to sort of take things back. And maybe a lot of even your fans don't necessarily know that you were in the hospitality game before launching yeah the brewery. So um do you want to tell us a bit about the restaurant you ran in Sydney? Well, our background is actually landscape architecture. That's where we met a really long time ago at Uni and we were in Sydney working on landscape architecture. We had the opportunity to run a pop-up bar for Pure Blonde actually. Yeah, to design and sort of deliver a pop-up bar. And now you're designing your own for Pure Blonde as well. It was called The Pond and it was a three-month pop-up and then so after that was delivered for Pure Blonde we took over the restaurant and opened up the Commons Local Eating House. It was a sweet deal actually. I've seen the same place where you'd done the pop-up. Yeah it was a beautiful old 1840s sort of hand-hewn convict hand-hewn sandstone double-fronted building in Darlinghurst with a courtyard full of plants and a beautiful building that for the pop-up and we kind of
00:34:04
Speaker
said oh if we put a bit more effort into this sort of more permanent more put about some of our own money into the fit out can we just take it over afterwards and yeah we did yeah with no experience. Unplanned and then like hey let's run the restaurant. Sort of yeah. I knew some people that were working on the project so we had an in there but we had also had a couple of good dinner parties and we thought We can do this. We can do this. We can have a restaurant. And I think the best thing to do in business is to, and I always say this, is to just jump off the pier because then you have to swim and you'll work it out. Our first night in that internet, because we're in the kitchen as well. We employed chefs. We, we naively put an ad out in an Italian language newspaper or global for an honor.
00:34:56
Speaker
thought we'll get an honor in the kitchen. And a very old Italian woman, she's over 60, Anna, what a legend. She was a chef, not an honor, but a chef, took pity on us. And ah a French chef called Danielle, who had these amazing charcuterie and butchery skills, photos from the 70s with a big hat. And, you know, Sydney's a young chef's game, so he wasn't working in anything interesting at that point, but got those guys in. But on the first night, we got the dates wrong. So we had our kitchen hand and just us two and no other chef. And the kitchen hand just had to teach us how to run the pass and on that first night and kind of do it. So hilarious. Yeah. We did a Petru Cucher talk a couple of months later, and we'd actually got from the library um how to run a restaurant. Idiot's guide. How to open a restaurant. And he did this whole talk about um using that book. It was quite useful. It was very useful. That really is jumping off the pier. How many people did you have in on that first night when you were like learning? It was a party, opening party, so it was huge. industry night for There was a lot of marketing because there was a lot of press and a lot of attention on it because it was to but you know had all this marketing budget behind it that wasn't ours. We had mentors as well. um yeah so but it was In the end, we ended up running the restaurant for three years oh years and ended up selling it to um
00:36:30
Speaker
ah staff member. yeah Yeah, but it was great. It was all, again again, that restaurant was all about provenance, all about, you know, we had a great relationship with a great butcher we're still friends with now who, you know, he's been to every farm that every animal comes from. Feather and Bone in Sydney. um Grant and Laura were running that. um And, you know, he would Supplies with the whole beast and butcher it immaculately But you know that was great for him because people only wanted the steak say but we would buy the whole beast And we would use every cut sometimes on the blackboard There was only like one meal you could get out of one little cut that would go up and go off um But it was yeah, it was about provenance simplicity
00:37:11
Speaker
trying to be unpretentious and celebrate ingredients and and we kind of took that that attitude towards food. It definitely is has sort of informed how we think about beer as well. Yeah. But also when we had the restaurant, it was definitely the the start of craft beer. So we had all the craft beer that was around New South Wales sorry is and stone and wood. done wood, four pines. And like I think we were one of the first customers for Young Henry's. We were actually serving at the table out of growlers. Yeah, we'd get growlers and filled up from the keg. Oh no, they would bring the growlers. They would bring the growlers. And so we definitely saw the start of craft beer and we're like, the love this and we're really interested in this. So um after we sold the restaurant we decided to do a three-month tour of the US s to kind of check out what was happening over there. and I don't know if you brewed at all like any home brewing or... Yeah home brewing. They did open a restaurant with that.
00:38:15
Speaker
Yeah. I think you asked the wrong question. Oh, clearly not. No professional brewing before that. And like I'm brewing a lot of science continuing to read. I still read, still study now and go, oh, was I doing that all that time? You didn't reach out the idiots guy to brewing? No, we didn't. But it was a really conscious decision to, we had two options. One was to go through the but education system. or to do a tour around the US and meet lots of brewers. And there's pros and cons of both approaches, to be honest. It was very freeing the way we did it, but it means you have a lot of catching up to do technically as well. You had two young kids in tow as well for the tour. But we met a lot of brewers and The one thing that we noticed was that, yes, there are fundamental science behind brewing, but there's also lots of different ways of doing it. And that was so freeing for us. It was like, well, fuck it. We can just do it our own way, you know? That's great. And so that was three months on the road. And then how soon after you got back did, I guess, the wheel stop moving to another year. Another year. But it was probably a whole year before we opened. Yeah.
00:39:34
Speaker
Yeah, and we did try to open our brewery on the farm in the exact same location that we are now. um but Lots of barriers. Anyway, we got there. Yeah, there was just too many barriers, but it was I think was about a year since we got back. Yeah. And I guess, I guess one of the key stand out things to say the grave is how the brand looks, it's very different, you know, I guess, it which carries through to the beers and, you know, the partnerships you do. um How did that sort of come about? So where did that that concept come from and, how you know, have you sort of carried that through over time? um I guess, I mean, it's funny, we read back over our original notes for our mission, I guess, if you like, and it was amazing how true it still was to what we believe now. And it was always about
00:40:22
Speaker
the You know, the people, it sounds kind of trite because it's... we've said it so many times, but about the people of the area, the actual physical landscape and produce of the area and and our relationships to those people and those that produce. And it's always, we've always done heaps of collaborations, even with its if it's with a guy who has lots of lemon trees, not just a you know a business collaboration. We've always tried to work with the people and the produce of the area. To the limits we could, you know as we've discussed, you know the grain was a big,
00:40:56
Speaker
stand back. But even working with um Uncle Bruce, you know, again, that's it's about establishing a relationship and telling a story. We want to tell stories through beer um to people who might might be interested, might not be, but might have had no exposure to that story as well. So, yeah, telling stories through relationships with people and produce. Yeah. And it's not just being, I guess, partnerships with producers. You've also made a play or I guess common throughout the beers foraging, I guess, you know, showcasing the actual um landscape, you know, the local, and yeah, I guess native produce as well. I think we draw a lot of inspiration from our environment. And, you know, I think that's where what sets us apart a little bit from, you know,
00:41:44
Speaker
ah city breweries is that we have so much around us that inspires us and we can draw on that. And um that's definitely one of our biggest inspirations is the environment. What's been the most of extreme ah sort of example of forage? I know there was the drive back up to Canberra one time to dig up. so Yeah. Up to the side of a road. There's a theme sort of hanging off cliffs. Rose hips. and That was rose hips. Yeah. um Great rose hips. Road to Canberra. Yeah. I don't know, like I do a lot of stealing or foraging of um salt bush, coastal salt bush. And um so I get up very early and go for very early swims to get that. And that goes in our seabird. um genital Core range beer. Yeah. I have to put weird things in core range beers to make life hard. Don't forget the salt bush tomorrow.
00:42:42
Speaker
Yeah, as seaweed, we do a lot with seaweeds and really want to do small things. I'm really obsessed with seaweed. Still believe in umami beers. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. it It still fits in with the idea that beer can be subtle but have interest, you know. Umami is this kind of elusive thing and you want and elusive flavors in beers. Yeah. Do you think that's partially why you've managed to cut through internationally as well? I know i know you spent a fair bit of time in Japan and it seems to be a market um that's
00:43:15
Speaker
um um a market that people are interested in what you're doing there um do you think it's up because you're telling an Australian story in a unique way or what's what's sort of driving that? I think so I think you're right I mean we sort of hoped that we wanted to go to Japan because we felt those ideas would be appreciated there you know that idea of reverence for um uh produce and and for the the kind of backstory of produce I guess would be appreciated there so And I think they are. It's interesting. I mean, Japan's quite a small craft beer market at the same time. It's growing. It sort of feels like I said a tipping point at the moment. um But that that general idea seems to fit with Japan. So yeah, I think you're right.
00:43:57
Speaker
And I guess aside from the the unique flavors and some of the collaborations you've done, um and tell us a bit about the story of how you came to have the look and feel that you do for Sales Grove as well. We did um heaps of research. We actually just did a lot of Pinterest um searching and we actually found an artist who lives in England, Cornwall, Joe Lyward, and we flew him out before we opened and he spent some time with us and he actually just came out No, though how many times has he been out? He's been out three times. three times yeah The second time I was during the bushfires we had to actually had to evacuate him. Yeah, the road closed and the fire was coming and he was trapped with us and then it opened for a bit and he just got the hell out. you know And then he came again this summer as well um and so we've developed a real relationship with him and
00:44:49
Speaker
um He's kind of stuck with this for life now. and He never did anything in the sort of food or drink space before, had he? No, no, he's a children book illustrator. Yeah, he did. He kind of major, I guess, at when he was at art school in children's book illustration. He does a lot of illustration now, all sorts of stuff, yeah but that was his background. Yeah, this whimsical, naive kind of thing, you know. What was it that caught your eye from his working? Yeah, it was his naivety and... i'm Very unpretentious, very kind of a simple gestures and timeless. We wanted the album to be as far away from BR labels as we could get it. um Or the classic, What You Think Is. And um one of the BR labels that I love the most is actually our Southwest Draft, um which is
00:45:40
Speaker
a real take on a classic Beowulf. It's got like the oval, and um but it's gone through the sailor's grave. And he did two versions, didn't he? Yeah. And it was um the full wonk that we... went Really wonky and less wonky. Like, we've got to go full wonk. Full wonk. So Taylor's Grove style is full wonk, basically. ah but it's But it's carried through to everything about the brand and it seems to yeah be what help you connect with a lot of people, I think, as well. and you know it
00:46:11
Speaker
just the liquids itself, the look, the feel, the events, everything feels, you know, part of a holistic whole, I guess. That's good to hear. I mean, that's, we would hope so. But yeah, it's, it's hard to know from the inside. But that it feels like that from the inside, too. And with the membership club, Deck Hands, I know you do a lot of work with that, Gabby, like, is it, is that part of that as well, kind of connecting with people all over the country? Or how do you sort of Yeah, the Decans really started out as a COVID. And oh, wow, I was like, hand printing boxes for that. And it was just a way of kind of like getting beer out there. But it's been a really great way of kind of bringing people into the brand as well. And it gives us a really fun opportunity to push our artwork onto them as well. So It gives Gav the opportunity to do her. Gav's doing some amazing printmaking, so it's been great for her to really develop that style. It's our favourite pack of cards for camping. It takes a bit of adjusting, but once you're in, you'll switch the clubs for clams or whatever. I'm making a new set as well, which is over a four-year period. So each year, so we've got the deck hands and we've also got the barrel gang membership. So with each barrel gang, which is four beers a year, they also get a print that goes with the beer. And at the end of the four years, that will be the suits of the deck of cards. So yeah, it's like it's a really long term relationship that we have with our members.
00:47:58
Speaker
and it I'd love to hear a bit more about how the two of you sort of um work together you know within the the business as well, like who brings you know particular parts of Sailor's Grave together and yeah how you sort of may manage that being you know together in life and together together in business living on a remote farm. Yeah, I mean, it's not. easy I think it is that's the problem isn they like the magic of Sailor's grave is what happens between me and Chris, like, you know, the creativity and, um, you know, each BR is kind of a discussion. Yeah. And it's a creative process between us, whether it's the look or the taste or the, you know, a relationship with somebody we know. Yeah. Like if one of us was removed from that citrus from the brand, yeah it would be a completely different thing. Yeah.
00:48:54
Speaker
And I'm actually happier now to take off the overalls and not the beard because it's not very nice underneath. Take off the overalls and the beard, you know, and sort of hide more in the brewery. I'd love to hide in the brewery. And Gab can talk to everybody. You know, that's the goal, isn't it? Is it true? Just clients recovered and just let everything work on around you. Yeah. I mean, GAB does so much work in relationship building and I kind of tag along for that a bit.
00:49:27
Speaker
I'm a hustler way back. But, um, yeah, I also think that, you know, as a woman in the industry, it's really important to, as much as I don't always enjoy it, um, put myself at the front of the business. And so people will see women, you know, yeah talking about beer and, you know, it's not always just men. and Men with beards and overalls. Back with the beard. Yeah. Yeah, but I think and there's a few brands out there have managed that to be both founders, you know, or you know but you know certainly. but It has very much always been the the Chris and Gab show, I think. It's never one without the other. you know don't Yeah, good, good. Yeah.
00:50:12
Speaker
what's the one thing you wish you'd known when you'd started out in the business? What's the one bit of advice you'd have for anybody in in the brewing world? And what's the one thing you'd love to see for beer in Australia above all else? I should have given you the heads up earlier. We're calling them the crafty three, but yeah' we're still working on sponsorship. We're having to sell that too. It's like the past, present and future. It's good you sprung it on us. You'd probably get something good. For me, they all come back to, again, kind of sound like a wanker. um to people and place, like how important your local, I think you underestimate how important your local place is with the people and where you live. You know, I wish I'd known how important that was. You know, I sort of had a hunch, but it's sort of when you start the brewery, it's come and conquer the world and spread wide, but you know, then you start to realize that more and more. And I like
00:51:07
Speaker
Oh, the three again. The one thing you wish you'd known at the start is, you know, I guess you're saying is the importance of being part of or supporting your, or winning over your local community. Yeah. I think, I think I sort of half knew at the start, but I wish I'd known how important at the start it was that in the end, it all comes back to your local, whatever you like to call your local, but your local community and the people and the place and how you are connected. Yeah. It's a challenge when your community is a third of the state. Yeah. I'll challenge you on an advantage actually. Yeah. Well, one bit of advice you'd give to someone in your situation or someone getting into beer now, someone else in the bill would be the one thing that you've learnt over the last eight years. Yeah, definitely don't try and be something you're not. It doesn't matter if you think there's a market for what you are, that's all you've got. If you try and be something you aren't, then
00:51:59
Speaker
yeah i I feel like you're on a path to failure. You might be on a path to be a failure if you'd just be who you are as well, but you know. I think um if you're thinking about starting a new brewery, you we really got to think about what you're bringing to the conversation. It's not enough just to make a good pale ale. If you are not bringing something new, then and you want to be in the industry, just get a job at another brewery because like we don't need at this point a huge amount of new breweries coming into you know the industry. Unless you've got heaps of backing. You can do a good payload and you'll be fine. Yeah. And if you had a magic wand and you could ask for one thing for craft beer in Australia in the future, what might that be?
00:52:51
Speaker
Well, apart from a greater excise. I would say excise relief. yeah yeah That is really boring, but it yeah it is such a barrier that so many craft breweries hit at a certain point. Costs are so high. If that were if that relief were expanded, it enabled people to get over a certain hump in growth, which is really important. and I think also craft washing as well. Um, just more visibility about that. I think a lot of people don't really understand what is independent and what's not, even though everyone's working really hard yeah on that. Um, I think the average punter at the Orbost, um, foodworks, they don't know that yet. Everywhere. Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:37
Speaker
yeah Yeah, we'd all like to see that as well. A bit more transparency and honesty. Never goes amiss. Yes. Well, Chris and Gav, thanks for joining us on the Craft with Art and Podcast. Thanks for having us, guys. No worries. And we'll let everyone know when Junetown's about to open later in the year and get ourselves down there. Yeah. It's going to be fun. Awesome. All right. Cheers, guys. Cheers.
00:54:03
Speaker
The Crafty Pint Podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, craftypint.com and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our socials. We wouldn't be able to produce the podcast or the website, events, or festivals we run without the support of the beer industry, whether that's suppliers, bars, breweries, or bottle shops. If you'd like to support the show or partner with the Crafty Pine in other ways, please reach out to Craig via the details in the show notes. And if you're a beer lover who'd like to support what we do, you can join our exclusive club for beer lovers, the Crafty Cabal. Visit craftycabal.com for more. And until next time, drink good beer.