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Episode 533: Susan Orlean on Her ‘Best’ Rejection, Coming Up with Ideas, and Letting the Reporting Meander
416 Plays1 day ago
"You don't have to go to the far ends of the earth, but I'm willing to do that for you, and tell you what I found," says Susan Orlean, bestselling author of several books, including her latest, Joyride: A Memoir.
Look who’s back! It’s Susan Orlean, author of the memoir Joyride about her roller coaster career as a writer and journalist spanning decades from her time at Willamette Weekly here in Oregon to the summit of The New Yorker, from her first book Saturday Night to reaching bestseller heights with The Orchid Thief, Rin Tin Tin, and The Library Book. It’s a book that braids her life story along with hard-earned writing wisdom.
We talk about:
- Using notebook and pen over the recorder
- The quality of her attention
- Resilience
- What is it that clicks with her for a story
- Working through three regime of trust at The New Yorker
- The more you learn of the world the better
- Curiosity as a form of compassion
- Idea generation
- Her ‘best’ rejection
- Why books loom larger for her
- There is no end to a story
- The breeding ground of jealousy
- Letting the reporting meander
- And Patreon questions!
This episode pairs well with:
Eps. 61, 121, and 281 with Susan
Ep. 500 with John McPhee
Ep. 514 with Tony Rehagen
Follow the show on Instagram @creativenonfictionpodcast and subscribe to my newsletters Pitch Club and Rage Against the Algorithm.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Pitch Club Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, you see, Neffers. Sometimes the best idea you can come up with is the thing you wish you had when you were starting out. That's what Pitch Club is at welcome to pitchclub.substack.com. I was such a frustrated freelancer, not knowing how to pitch, not getting any traction. So Pitch Club is that thing that 2010, 2011, 12, 13 of me could have used.
00:00:21
Speaker
Pitches ranging from age inquiries, feature stories, off-the-cuff, unhinged essay pitches, and more. And to celebrate one year of the front runner and one year of pitch club, I annotated my own book proposal overview of the front runner.
00:00:36
Speaker
So you read a little, you listen a little, and I hope you learn a lot forever free. Welcome to pitch club. Substack.com. Come, come. This happened to me where people have come back to me and said, oops, it wasn't recording. And I think, you know, that's not so good.
Guest Introduction: Susan Orlean
00:01:03
Speaker
OACN creative nonfiction podcast, family owned and operated since 2013. The show where I speak to tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell. I'm your host, Brendan O'Meara. And look who's back. Oh my gosh. It's Susan Orlean, author of the memoir Joyride, about her rollercoaster career as a writer and journalist spanning decades. from her time at Willamette Weekly here in Oregon to the summit of the New Yorker, from her first book, Saturday Night, to reaching bestseller heights with The Orchid Thief, Rin Tin Tin, and The Library Book.
00:01:34
Speaker
It's a book that braids her life story along with hard-earned writing wisdom. And it's such a joy to have her back on the show. Show notes this episode more at brendanomero.com where you can read blog posts, search the deep, vast archive of the podcast, and sign up for Pitch Club or Rage Against the for those recommendations. I made the latter a werewolf so it publishes when the full moon hits Pacific Standard Time. Nose to the wind, baby.
00:02:05
Speaker
You may also browse patreon.com slash cnfpod if you want to. Chip in a few extra bucks for a few extra perks and to support the podcast. Podcast is free, but it sure as hell ain't cheap.
00:02:18
Speaker
Shout out to new patron, he of episode 112 fame, author of the book King Kong, among others, Paul Willits of the UK. Thank you, Paul. And thank you for your kind email commiserating after last week's parting shot on episode 532 about the book blues. We'll keep on keeping on.
Engagement with Listeners and Supporters
00:02:37
Speaker
So Susan's back and you're in for a fun one. I actually got responses from the Patreon gang when I sometimes I've put out like call for questions and most people don't reply. But for this one, I did. So there are a few listener questions from the Patreon crew toward the back end of this episode. So was really happy to feature those questions.
Tools for Writing and Interviewing
00:03:00
Speaker
And in this episode, Susan and I talk about yeah using a notebook and pen over the recorder, the quality of her attention, resilience. What is it that clicks with her in a story?
00:03:12
Speaker
Working through three regimes of trust at the New Yorker. The more you learn of the world, the better. Curiosity is a form of compassion, idea generation, her best rejection, why books loom larger for her, how there's no real end to a story, the breeding ground of jealousy, and letting the reporting meander, and also those Patreon questions.
00:03:35
Speaker
You can learn more about Susan at SusanOrlean.com and follow her on Instagram at SusanOrlean. She also has a substack. Look her up. You may also follow the podcast on Instagram at Creative Nonfiction Podcast.
00:03:50
Speaker
Got a fiery parting shot about what I found in an old journal. But for now, please enjoy the next hour or so with the one and only Susan Orlean.
00:04:08
Speaker
Definitely louder than whatever dumb fuck question is that you want to ask. you know, for fuck's sake, at least we tried. I hate this guy. It's exactly that. You know what? i'm I'm not a piece of shit. This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:04:32
Speaker
buts um That's kind of a fun on-ramp. I always love talking about how how how writers and reporters, journalists, like gather their information. like Many use tape recorders.
00:04:44
Speaker
I know you don't. I talked to Will Haygood, brilliant author, this morning for his book War Within a War about ah black soldiers in Vietnam. And we were talking about recorders as well. And he's big on just the classic reporter notebook, no recorders at all, um for similar reasons that you espouse in Joyride. But I'd love to just ah unpack that a little bit because so many people are scared of losing it, losing anything that they that they eschew the like the kind of tried and true notebook and pen.
00:05:15
Speaker
Yeah. Well, first of all, i it's not a matter of judgment. If someone works well with the tape recorder, I feel like that's great.
00:05:27
Speaker
I think part of the nature of reporting is you find what works for you and stick with it. And also, I'm always open if there's something that comes along that seems maybe like it'll work.
00:05:42
Speaker
I'm happy to try it But I return over and over again to the notebook and pen. And I have lots of reasons that i think it works for me, including not being distracted writing.
00:06:00
Speaker
tech and tech issues and am I running out of space? Did I hit record? You know, all of the stuff that is kind of there in your head and to me feels like a distraction. For sure. And I was ah interviewed by a University of Oregon student the other day. He's doing a project for school. And um so I met up with him and he he had his iPhone as his recorder. and And he did this other thing where he put it face down as well. And I almost wanted to say, like, at least have it face up so you can see that it's recording. Because they I didn't, if I'm recording with a digital device like that, i at least make sure I can see that it's operating because yeah, it's, if it's upside down, like, Oh my God, is this catching everything? Cause the worst thing you want to do is have to go back to someone and be like, Hey, I don't have anything from our conversation.
00:06:53
Speaker
This happened to me where people have come back to me and said, oops, it wasn't recording. And I think, you know, That's not so good. that but You've created a problem. i ah But on a more existential level, i feel that I listen harder when I'm not recording.
00:07:17
Speaker
I'm willing to accept the fact that I might miss a few things because there's a limit to how quickly you can write and how many notes you can take.
00:07:31
Speaker
But on balance, I feel that the quality of my attention is higher when I am relying on it than when I'm not.
00:07:42
Speaker
At the end of the day, that's the more important metric. If I miss a quote because I didn't write it down fast enough and I look back and think, oh, shoot, you know that was a good quote and I didn't write it, i I'm willing to take that cost over realizing that I wasn't really paying attention.
00:08:07
Speaker
And i feel like no matter what, if you have a tape recorder running, the temptation to let your mind wander is is kind of irresistible.
00:08:21
Speaker
i mean, it's just the nature of having this object that is doing the listening for you. And I worry about that.
00:08:33
Speaker
Yeah, one part I love that you that you highlight, and this is I've used this as well, is that ah say you are quote unquote done with the interview and then they keep going, and it's so much easier to just flip up the notebook be like, and to your point of that you write about, like, oh, do you mind if i keep taking notes? and like Instead of reaching for this device, be like, hold on, I gotta to take it off hold, I gotta to start a new file and then beep, hit record, and then suddenly you kind of lose that that that almost lubricated momentum. of
00:09:03
Speaker
yeah of that that you just engendered. Yeah, and I feel like that happens so often. That's not a once in a lifetime. That's happened to me time and time again, that when you ease up a bit and you're sort of saying your goodbyes, people...
00:09:23
Speaker
feel relaxed. They feel more comfortable. And suddenly they're thinking about something or they begin just riffing on something. And those moments are really precious.
00:09:38
Speaker
the interruption of saying, hang on let me get my tape recorder going. um You're usually going to ruin the moment. And it's not that you're trying to trick people because there's nothing subtle about taking notes. In fact, it's kind of the opposite. And yet I feel like people are a lot less bothered by the very analog experience of having someone take notes than they are about a device being switched on.
00:10:14
Speaker
Some of it is our natural self-consciousness. Oh, I don't like the sound of my voice. Oh, I feel self-conscious being recorded. um it's It's just another layer of disengagement that you know I feel like when you're trying to do as you know authentic an interview as you can, um anything you can do to help sort of bring the temperature down and have it be very natural and very fewer devices, fewer sort of self-conscious making interferences, the better. i mean, we all know that the minute you turn a camera on, people freeze up.
00:11:08
Speaker
um And to some degree, I think that's very true with taping. There's just an awkwardness that has to do with feeling like you're being recorded by this mechanical device and maybe you feel self-conscious. Do you sound smart? do you you know Are your words exactly the right words? When you're taking notes,
00:11:34
Speaker
people just don't feel as self-conscious. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. at right. It's been out for a little while now. And ah what has been the the reaction that maybe you're most surprised about of readers coming up to you and you know, those little things that they pick out of it.
00:11:53
Speaker
It's really been interesting how many non-writers have responded to it because It certainly is a book that I assumed writers would most respond to, but it's been really interesting that that Some of what I address in the book, it's much more, it it can be applied to many different lives in a way that I hadn't expected. And and that's really been great.
00:12:31
Speaker
As far as the things that people have zeroed in on, that's a good question. i think a lot of it a lot of the response has been to the idea of resilience, of making your own way and bouncing back when discouragement has been there.
00:12:55
Speaker
And that's a universal. That doesn't require being a writer
Resilience and Perseverance in Writing
00:13:00
Speaker
to respond to that. and And I've definitely had people react to that aspect of the book. Yeah, that's always important to underscore because when ah ah when John McPhee has talked about his career and and everyone you marvels at it, as we all should at this point, but he's often like, what you're looking at my career through the wrong end of the telescope. that The fact that he had been doing it for some 60 years in the 30 books and the New Yorkers and...
00:13:28
Speaker
He's teaching at Princeton. He's like, but in when you know when he was younger and in in the grind of it all, there was that degree of perseverance and resilience and dealing with rejection and doing so many pieces for the New Yorker on spec without assignment and then trying to get them sold. The the magnificent McPhee is writing on spec. And so for you to articulate that resilience and perseverance and the discouragement and rejection from the vantage point of your career, which is very successful, outwardly successful bestsellers and this, that and the other, ah that it's really great to hear someone of your stature talk about that discouragement and how you persevered through it.
00:14:04
Speaker
It's not only a sort of a life lesson, because it really is, but it's also to be a reporter requires ah a kind of bit of stubbornness that you know, you're chasing people down who maybe don't want to talk to you and you're digging into stories that at first don't seem like they're going to yield anything. I mean, it's part of the job.
00:14:35
Speaker
So it isn't lost on me that the same person who can bounce back from ah frustrating experience with a magazine is also gonna apply that those same lessons to chasing down a source or pursuing a story that doesn't immediately seem promising.
00:15:01
Speaker
Yeah, and and something that that stuck out to me just in previous conversations we've had and certainly in Joyride is that you primarily, you really refer to yourself as a writer, but rarely a journalist or a reporter. So like where is the identity for you?
00:15:16
Speaker
That's tough one. um On one hand, I feel like it's sort of almost irrelevant. It's it's just a title that you pick. Yeah.
00:15:27
Speaker
But, and I certainly am a journalist, technically speaking. i'm I'm writing factual stories about the real world. And I guess if you were to define journalism, you would say that that, that,
00:15:46
Speaker
is one definition of it. Am i a reporter? Absolutely. you know I consider reporting to be a full 50% of what my job entails.
00:15:59
Speaker
But I think the title that I gravitate toward more is writer because being a journalist, being a reporter, those seem like the tools and the outcome.
00:16:14
Speaker
is the writing. And so that to me is a more holistic description of what I do. And ah I know the the Colin Duffy piece is something that you you hinge on early on and you it's in the appendix and everything. And then there are there are always writers like, you know Gay Talese is so associated with Frank Sinatra as a cold. And, you know, Tom, you know, the falling man and yeah several other writers have like the story that people are known for. what you say this story is the one like when your name comes up that people most associate with you?
00:16:46
Speaker
American Man, yeah, I would say, which which is funny because it's one of the few pieces I didn't do for The New Yorker, but that was that's just a coincidence of timing and so forth. But yeah, I would say, and that that's why I really highlighted it it in the book, because I know that people associate me with that. Part of it is because it's in the syllabus of many journalism classes and many nonfiction classes. So I know lots of people read it as part of their education.
00:17:28
Speaker
And it's been collected many times in a lot of different collections. So that has, you know, further expanded its exposure.
00:17:40
Speaker
but I also think it it um it kind of exemplifies what I try to do with my work, um which is to take something quite ordinary in its sort of presence in the world and elevate it in ah in a way that you maybe wouldn't have considered. So in that sense, that story is
00:18:11
Speaker
a perfect example of what I think I do as a writer. Yeah. You, you, you highlight two kinds of stories that you, um, that you gravitate towards, uh, kind of the hiding in plain sight and who knew when did that, that degree of curiosity and your tastes kind of lock into kind of those two, you know, those two categories?
00:18:35
Speaker
Well, you know, it's hard to say. i think that for a long time i had begun wondering why, what is the common thread between the stories that I write since superficially they don't have much in common.
00:18:55
Speaker
And I've bounced from, you know, a 10 year old boy to a show dog to, you know, a cult in Eastern Oregon to the library, you know, they seem superficially to have so little in common.
00:19:14
Speaker
And part of my curiosity has been, what is it that clicks for me with this story?
Choosing and Developing Story Subjects
00:19:23
Speaker
Why can someone suggest an idea that sounds like the kind of story I do, but for whatever reason, it just doesn't resonate for me? So, you know, I've begun trying to figure that out.
00:19:41
Speaker
And it did seem like these two very different categories were emerging. though the one that was the obvious thing that you had never really thought about like a 10 year old boy. I mean, it's not that's not like I've uncovered an unknown subculture, but in fact, this is as common as the kid who lives next door.
00:20:13
Speaker
But had we ever addressed that as a a sort of nonfiction subject. And the other is the discovery of something that really, you know, a piece of history, of subject or a subculture that you didn't even know existed. And that can apply.
00:20:42
Speaker
i mean, the library book was a little bit of both because on one hand, writing about a library was very much the you know, obvious, everybody knows what a library is, but the largest library fire in American history was very much the who knew the, well, I never heard about that. And I never even thought about that. Wow, that's a whole category there.
00:21:13
Speaker
that I had never considered. you know I'm very drawn to stories that make me think, wow, I never knew such a subculture existed. mean, the black gospel circuit, like, wow, that that's amazing. This whole universe that I didn't even know existed. Taxidermy, and the passion of taxidermists, well,
00:21:42
Speaker
I certainly had never given that any thought before I stumbled into it. So, you know, there's a whole world of of discovery versus this other inverse world, which was, here's this thing that's so common that you never even really think about it, but I'm going to stop and think about it.
00:22:05
Speaker
And over your career, you've worked with, especially at The New Yorker, you've worked with several, a few different you know editors of heads of state of The of the New Yorker, you know be it Tina Brown or David Rednick. Who have you gelled with the most in your arc at The New Yorker?
00:22:20
Speaker
um I've had really good relationships with, I've been there in three different regimes, and which is now sort of remarkable because...
00:22:34
Speaker
People at the New Yorker run it for a long time as a rule. and But I started in the Gottlieb era and there are not that many of us around at this point who started when he was running it. and you know I've had a really different relationship with each of them and luckily very good. The single most important thing in each of the three ah editors in chief that I've worked for is that they've trusted me.
00:23:11
Speaker
And they've trusted me when I've come to them with a story that didn't sound initially all that promising. And they've said, all right, you know you you're passionate about it, give it a shot. And that's been true for all of them, even as in the case with Tina Brown, that's not the way she normally works.
00:23:35
Speaker
She tends to prefer controlling the story ideas and you know assigning people to stories, but she was comfortable enough to say, oh, trust your instinct if you think this is a good idea. Yeah, and she would say, yeah this is going to take you know and pretty much an extraordinary feat of writing to pull this idea off. So then it's just like, OK, the ball's now in your lap.
00:24:05
Speaker
And so you're like, I got to write the shit out of this thing somehow. ah Right. And she, you know, often we would talk about that, which was the fact that these stories And maybe that's why i gravitate to the term writer as opposed to reporter, because they are very much crafted pieces of work that could very easily fall on their face.
00:24:37
Speaker
um And that it requires a real commitment to the idea that this is an important story, even when it's something very slight, youre the reader is relying on the writer a lot more in that case to say, okay, show me why I should care about 10 year old boy.
00:24:57
Speaker
Show me why I should care about a guy who and invented an umbrella. I mean, my life was full before I read this story. So why why is this something I should spend my time on? And that requires the writer to be much more dominant in the role of storyteller.
00:25:26
Speaker
Yeah, you you write early in the book, in chapter one, like I picture a battle unfolding in those first sentences between me and the reader, me waving my hands and insisting the piece is worth reading and the reader grumpily resisting. That battle is pitched, but it's my secret pleasure.
00:25:41
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that that, while that may sound dramatic, I feel that absolutely that I'm in the position of saying, no, no, give me a minute. Give me a sentence. Let me read one more sentence. I promise I'm going to make this worth your while. and you know I've had so many people over the years say to me, oh, I never thought I'd read a book about orchids. I never thought I'd read a story about a 10-year-old kid.
00:26:11
Speaker
And i feel like, yeah, I get it. i understand. i totally understand why you didn't think you would read this story.
00:26:22
Speaker
i have become convinced this is a story you should read, and I'm willing to argue with you about why you should read it. And, but that requires me, you know, paying off that investment you're willing to make. yeah And you know I'm really going to make it worth your while. Yeah. And in in the introduction, you write that writing is a job, but for me, it's always felt like a mission. So in what ways it felt like a mission for you?
00:26:53
Speaker
I think at the bottom of what motivates me is a very optimistic, very joyful commitment to the idea that the more you learn of the world, the better, whether it's subjects that disturb you, whether it's something that surprises you, delights you, that learning about the world is a net positive.
00:27:31
Speaker
And my sense of most of us is that we tend to draw the boundaries of our lives closer and closer as we age or just, that's just the natural human tendency, which is if it's not familiar to me, i don't want to learn about it. If it's not familiar to me, i don't want to be exposed to it. Or i already have my opinion I don't need to learn about this thing.
00:28:04
Speaker
And have the exact opposite feeling, which is life is all about learning. And I'm not trying to change your mind about the subject. I'm fine if you continue to feel that children's beauty pageants are not a good thing.
00:28:25
Speaker
But isn't it better to learn about them And then you can have your opinion and feel that you've earned your opinion and you're coming to it, you know, aware of what you're talking about. That that learning is an absolute in its value.
00:28:46
Speaker
And that my my impulse is to say, going to go out and learn about the world and then teach you what I've learned. And that that has its...
00:29:00
Speaker
absolute value. and it it it really does feel like a mission to say to people, the more you open yourself up to learning about the world, the better it is for an existential reason, which is you're here living on planet earth.
00:29:23
Speaker
And the more you know, and the more you're exposed to the better. For sure. It's like the growth plates of our brain tend to ossify a little bit. And now that we're getting fed algorithmically things that just reinforce worldview and opinion, it's almost more incumbent upon the storytakers and the meaning makers to to go out and find these things and create the empathy machines to learn about.
00:29:49
Speaker
ah the world through these stories like, oh, I never thought of it that way, or I never knew that even existed. And it it kind of will snap us out of our sort of technological complacency in ah in a lot of ways, right?
00:30:01
Speaker
Well, that's really well said. And I think that if there's one a human characteristic that is always a positive, that is curiosity.
00:30:15
Speaker
And I believe that curiosity is a form of compassion. It's a it's a way of saying, i care about the people and things and animals and plants and circumstances that I co-inhabit you know the world with.
00:30:36
Speaker
um I don't have to like them all. don't have to sympathize with them all, but I have to have a fundamental compassion, which is expressed in saying, let me learn about you.
00:30:52
Speaker
And it it it becomes easier and easier to say, ah here's my slice of life.
00:31:03
Speaker
And I don't really need to know anything beyond that. But I would argue that you do and that your life is always better for it.
00:31:14
Speaker
That's my mission um is to say, yeah you don't have to be the one to go to the children's beauty pageants, but I'm willing to go on your behalf and tell you what I found.
00:31:28
Speaker
You don't have to go to the far ends of the earth, but I'm willing to do that for you and tell you what I found. And this is the the whole kind of basic construct of storytelling that not everybody anoints themselves as storyteller.
00:31:48
Speaker
But those of us who do are saying to the rest of the public, I'm you know i'm taking on this this task of learning about the world and then sharing it with you because not everyone has the time or desire means of doing so.
00:32:10
Speaker
and That way you can share in the consumption of the world more fully. You know, that's my job. That's what I do. I'm, i'm you know, I've chosen this as my profession and that means getting on the plane to go to the other side of the world. So I can tell you what it's like to be a 22 year old backpacker in Bangkok. yeah You know, why should you care? um There's no why
00:32:45
Speaker
There's not a why. It doesn't mean because you're planning to backpack in Nepal. It's because, well, your life is infinitely increased by knowing this story.
The Joy and Challenges of Storytelling
00:32:59
Speaker
And there needs to be no reason beyond the richer our experience of the world, the more fully we're alive. And I really believe that. That's why it feels so much like a purposeful effort that i do very joyfully.
00:33:23
Speaker
you know, I like being the one to go hang with the backpackers in Bangkok. But i like even more to tell you about what it was like to be hanging out with backpackers in Bangkok. Yeah. Yeah. and a lot of a lot of writers might struggle to come up with ideas. And you write the wealth you need to acquire as a writer is a wealth of ideas. It's more important than a thick stack of good clips. Those ideas are what make you a writer. So for you, when you're looking to sink your teeth into something, and sometimes you sink your teeth into something and there's not a whole lot there. It's a mealy apple. This isn't good and you throw it away. So how do you curate the ideas and and lean into the ones that really kind of light you up?
00:34:08
Speaker
Well, that's a huge challenge. And um I wanted to write about ideas in the book because I think we we never talk about that. And it's so important. And it's so funny that we don't discuss it. We don't teach people how to find ideas. um yeah And yet it's kind of the secret sauce in being a writer is having good ideas of what to write about.
00:34:38
Speaker
And it also is about knowing when an idea is going to work versus something that might please you, but isn't going to work as a story.
00:34:52
Speaker
And I'm not sure that there is a a really rock solid way to know that. I think it's intuition. It's having something kind of keep nagging at you where um I may come across an idea and I think, oh, that would be a cool story. And I almost intentionally push it out of my head partly to think, am I gonna, is this gonna come back?
00:35:25
Speaker
Or is it just going to get pushed out? It's a little like people who say, if you see something in a store, don't buy it right away. Go home, and if you're still thinking about it, go back and buy it. And it it really is a way of saying, all right, there's the impulse of, oh, this is a cool idea. And then is it going to come back and keep nagging at you where you think, you know, I really want to learn about this.
00:35:53
Speaker
push it away again? Does it come back again? Then can you begin thinking of how you would go about tackling this as an idea?
00:36:05
Speaker
Can you see the path, the various paths that present themselves for research and reporting?
00:36:16
Speaker
And, you know, not every idea, even if it's past those tests, is the best idea in the world, but it certainly needs to stand up to being rejected multiple times where you keep saying, no, no, no, no. no And then there's the part of you that goes, yeah, but, but I really think it's a cool idea.
00:36:38
Speaker
um and then, all right, is this in practical terms? What can I immediately think of that would give me a way into this story?
00:36:51
Speaker
Yeah. Can you point to ah like a good rejection over your career? Like it just didn't, uh, yeah, just like a good rejection that you either learn from or it ended up being serendipitous. it was rejected here and then maybe accepted over here.
00:37:08
Speaker
I would say the best rejection that was the most fortunate rejection was my first book proposal.
00:37:19
Speaker
And You know, it wasn't even a bad idea for a book, but I had chosen it um more because i thought this is a marketable book and less because I thought I'm really passionately committed to learning this story. i This was in the early days of the Ironman. It was a you know very new phenomenon and only a few years old at that point to compete in the triathlon.
00:37:57
Speaker
And i thought, well, I'm going to follow three people as they you know prepare to compete in the Ironman. And at that time, fitness was really...
00:38:10
Speaker
you know becoming a big deal. And as I said, the Iron Man was this new phenomenon. And I had two people already lined up who were coming to it through very different means. And I thought this is it was almost like my own personal algorithm.
00:38:29
Speaker
I thought this like focus groups as a good book idea, but I wasn't really passionate about it.
00:38:42
Speaker
And somehow or another, the publishers I approached, many of them said, it's not quite right for us.
00:38:55
Speaker
And I happen to think that if I were really passionate about it as an idea, i would have somehow made it much more persuasive because the fact is it really was a perfectly marketable book idea. yeah Yeah. So for them to say it's not quite for us was not even really what was going on. I think somehow they just sensed like, yeah, it's a good idea, but it's not on fire for for this particular writer. And I feel really lucky because
00:39:34
Speaker
It wasn't where I felt really excited and really that kind of crazy sense of I've got to figure this out. You know, I didn't feel that.
00:39:45
Speaker
And through great luck, I had a publisher say, look, I really want to do a book with you, but is this really the book you want to do And I just like blurted out, no, it's really not.
00:39:59
Speaker
She said, well, what do you really want to do? And I said, well, I really want to do a book about Saturday night in America. Like, what is Saturday night? What is the American Saturday night?
00:40:10
Speaker
have no idea where the idea came from. i had no idea how I was going to do it. But it truly was something that made me think, I am dying to find this out.
00:40:23
Speaker
And, you know, this publisher said, go for it. you know, we don't really know what you mean, but you clearly are excited about it, so you should do it.
00:40:34
Speaker
And I'm really glad that was my first book and not a book that I didn't feel really excited about. um So it was the, it it was by far the best rejection I've ever gotten that really pointed me onto a path that made all the difference in my professional life. Yeah. and you're bringing up books. There's a moment chapter 11 where you're, where you say writing a book made me feel like, uh, made me feel I was scratching a mark on the smooth face of existence that would endure. I pinned my sense of mattering on creating books. And I wanted to get a sense of like, why is that books and not the trolls of memorable magazine stories, um, that you like kind of pinned your sense of mattering on.
00:41:24
Speaker
Well, matt I love, you know, to me, magazine writing is yeah one of the finest forms. And I am really, really proud of my magazine work. And i feel in many ways I've done some of my very best.
00:41:42
Speaker
work ever doing a magazine piece. I also happen to think that not every story merits a book um and that there are a lot of great subjects that need to be treated a shorter form. So it's not a matter of comparing and just determining that one is a lesser accomplishment.
00:42:08
Speaker
However, books are a an object that we as a literate civilization have elevated and given a kind of permanence that is more concrete than that of magazines.
00:42:31
Speaker
I mean, by definition, magazines are periodicals. They are something that you read and discard. I think writing a book has that feeling that you've contributed something prominent to the canon.
00:42:52
Speaker
um books Books just loom larger. and some of it has to do even with the simple physicalness of a book. Yeah. um That we we hold them in a ah certain esteemed place.
00:43:15
Speaker
I also think my kind of fascination with mortality and immortality and the things that last versus the things that don't, you know, books embody that entirely. um We see in a book a kind of immortality that we don't,
00:43:41
Speaker
attribute to a lot of other things. Yeah. And there, uh, towards the, I believe towards the end, you were, um, you wrote like stories don't conclude, uh, but they do have consequences.
00:43:53
Speaker
And I wanted to get you to kind of unspool that, that yarn a bit more about, yeah, that they things don't necessarily need to fit tidy, but they do, they do have way to have heft at the end.
Navigating Story Endings and Jealousy
00:44:07
Speaker
Yeah. And I, I think, you know, it's one of the great,
00:44:11
Speaker
kind of maturing that I have had, I think, as a writer is appreciating and not being intimidated by this idea that stories, you know, what you tell in a story is a bit of frozen time, but it it doesn't mean the story itself ends. And often,
00:44:40
Speaker
you know, it has the quality of a snapshot. You're sort of capturing something in a particular moment in time, but there is no conclusion.
00:44:52
Speaker
and i think when I was younger, I really felt this, I felt compelled to have a a sort of conclusion that the story amounted to a certain declaration that this is what it means, this is what, you know, and here it ends. And and it was a big deal to think, well, of course that's not the case.
00:45:21
Speaker
I mean, these stories, it's a little like if you write a profile that the person should be dead by the time you finish the profile. I mean, you know, you're profiling someone and their life goes on So if you think of it in that simple term, what you're doing is capturing them at a moment in time.
00:45:40
Speaker
And you're not drawing a conclusion per se. You are sort of putting brackets around this moment. And you don't need to write an end to a story that has that sort of finality because the fact is the story goes on.
00:46:04
Speaker
person continues to live, the subculture continues to thrive. you know There is no end until the atom bomb drops and the world ends. None of these stories end.
00:46:19
Speaker
So that actually relieved me of that pressure to think, okay, how what do I say in conclusion?
00:46:31
Speaker
But that didn't diminish the meaning of the story. this To me, the story absolutely has meaning and has consequence and has something to say, that what it has to say isn't necessarily a conclusion. It's not a math equation.
00:46:52
Speaker
that you can say, and in conclusion, the sum is 11. QED, oh, we're done. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that is a very uncomfortable feeling when you're a young writer to to leave this sort of dangling end to a story. And yet it's also by far the more authentic way to to sort of exit a story is to say,
00:47:21
Speaker
And the story continues. Yeah, for sure. And you also write really ah eloquently about ah feelings of you know comparison and jealousy as well. And then how you've like girded yourself against it by a kind of like pinning it on luck. And you like don't want kind of like shield yourself from from those feelings that other people started to feel maybe towards you. And I just, in in a sense, just how can we and gird ourselves up from the, from those feelings of, of jealousy and envy, you know, as we sort of chart our way through a, through a career?
00:47:56
Speaker
Well, it's really tough. I mean, and increasingly so as the chance to get published um feels more and more difficult and,
00:48:12
Speaker
you know, it seems like fewer people can sort of name their, what they want to do and get paid for it and support themselves doing it. It's, it's a breeding ground for jealousy.
00:48:31
Speaker
I'm jealous um of people. And I don't think that I could write about having people be jealous of me without acknowledging the fact that i similarly have felt jealous of other writers where they've gotten an award that I wish I'd gotten, um you know, and a claim that I wish I had gotten, a story that I wish I had done, you know, it's just the nature of the beast. And i think writers are pretty competitive, yeah you know, in general.
00:49:08
Speaker
I think that there's no solution to that except accepting it and saying, this is part of the it's part of the landscape of this profession.
00:49:22
Speaker
and you just have to figure out how to account accommodate it It's very hard when, you know as is the case for me and for many writers, ah many of my friends are writers.
00:49:38
Speaker
So you are already in a thicket of people all trying to do the same thing. yeah and that's not so easy.
00:49:49
Speaker
I think you have to be honest with yourself and admit that you feel jealousy and that chances are people feel jealous of you. I've had in many ways an incredibly charmed career.
00:50:03
Speaker
i like to attribute it to luck because it's uncomfortable for me to say, well, I worked really hard and I'm good at what I do. And so I got these good outcomes because it's easier to say, well, I just got lucky.
00:50:22
Speaker
I really got lucky. It's not, it has nothing to do with me or my abilities. It's just that I just got super lucky. And and you know, that's a way of trying to say, don't be jealous of me.
00:50:35
Speaker
It's just pure luck and it could happen to you tomorrow. And, you know, I've had some really lucky, wonderfully fortunate occurrences, but the reality is i've been really purposeful and um in many ways, pretty shrewd and smart about how I've gone about managing my career.
00:51:06
Speaker
um And there are a lot of great writers who are not as good at the kind of entrepreneurial part of it And i am I am actually very good at that.
00:51:17
Speaker
For sure. And I've got some listener questions from ah from of the Patreon gang, and I want to spit a few of those at you. I think think they're pretty fun. film So from Masha, who's a journalist who's been on the show, who's written for the Atavist magazine, she says, when you're working with material that spans decades and multiple voices, how do you decide what to leave out so the story doesn't lose its center? Yeah.
00:51:43
Speaker
Oh, that's a huge challenge. and I think that, you know, you've got to always be writing um with an awareness of where the reader is, where you're asking the reader to go. And having too many characters, too many timeframes, you know, people don't like feeling confused.
00:52:14
Speaker
So you really need to have a very firm hand in guiding them um them. There's a simple, i mean, the reality is being a good writer is in many ways just being a good curator or a good editor.
00:52:33
Speaker
um What you want is to gather an overwhelming mass of material and then winnow from there to the really good stuff. And you have to be willing to, you know I mean, the phrase kill your dar darlings is probably the single most helpful guidance, which is not every single piece of information you're in love with should end up in the story. You've got to have great sympathy for your reader
00:53:10
Speaker
And appreciate that they can't go down every single blind alley. You need to help them through the story. And if that means abandoning a wonderful piece of information that you would kill and include, well, you're going have to do it.
Curiosity and Craft Development
00:53:31
Speaker
i She also asks, how do you think about the line between discovering meaning in your material versus shaping it with a meaning already in your mind? Well, I think that those are almost inseparable.
00:53:48
Speaker
First of all, I feel like the meaning should emerge from the material that in fact you that you may be drawn to a story because it means something to you, but that the the really important part of your process is letting the material speak to you and show you what it means.
00:54:18
Speaker
So you have to, I think you need to be guided initially by a sense of why the story is meaningful, but you have to be really loose enough and open enough to be have that expectation undone and let the material manifest to you what it means. And I would say probably that happened to me the most profoundly with my book, Grint and where
00:54:53
Speaker
I was sure that I knew exactly what it was all about, how it was going be structured. And I kind of resisted learning the material that might push me out of where I thought that the book should go. and then I finally just surrendered and thought, look, who I didn't know the story.
00:55:16
Speaker
So whatever meaning I attributed to it before I learned the story, in a sense, doesn't matter. and I've really got to embrace where this material is taking me. So i think, number one you can't have a super targeted reporting agenda.
00:55:36
Speaker
You have to really let your reporting meander because otherwise all you're doing is you're writing an essay and finding supporting material for your bullet points. And that's not what a great book does. You know you can't look just to find the material that supports your premise.
00:55:58
Speaker
You have to let your premise get undone and messy and let it re present itself to you. Excellent. Yeah. And, uh, and this guy ludes to something we talked about earlier, but Krista asks like deep curiosity is at the heart of all your stories. How do you nurture that curiosity and how do you stoke it when it wanes?
00:56:20
Speaker
You know, I feel like curiosity is a muscle that you have to exercise all the time. And the, the,
00:56:31
Speaker
the The most sort of dangerous sensation is laziness and a certain coziness, which is just, I don't want to I don't want to disrupt my comfortable perch by forcing myself into the unfamiliar.
00:56:54
Speaker
But even in your ordinary life, I feel like you've got to, make yourself do that. You've got to practice it all the time, not just in relation to a story.
00:57:07
Speaker
I think if you want to do this and this is your calling, you need to exercise it all the time. And part of the time, it's just merely to get that muscle working, to remind yourself that learning, that going down the alley you didn't see before has the the result of keeping you limber.
00:57:40
Speaker
i mean, that's the thing you've got to do is just always be pushing yourself. I mean, you know, right. I'm moving into a new house and I thought, you know, I wonder who lived here before me. And I, I'm just like pursuing that.
00:57:57
Speaker
There's no outcome. I'm not going to write about it. But to me, that's an exercise of curiosity that is a good, healthy um practice for someone whose job is curiosity and openness. You've got to be doing it all the time, not just when you say, okay, I'm working on a story. Now I'm going to be curious. No, no, no, no, no.
00:58:23
Speaker
You're a writer because you're curious. it's not the other way around. So you've got to make it a part of your daily practice and the way you are in the world. Excellent. And a couple more and two from Kim. One, she says, i subscribe to Susan's Substack and wonder what the benefit of it is ah to a writer who probably doesn't need to build build a platform like the rest of us.
00:58:50
Speaker
You know, I do it for fun. i ah My Substack is a lot about fashion. i love fashion. I've written about fashion, but not in the sort of chit-chatty way that I'm doing it on Substack, um which is just really fun for me.
00:59:12
Speaker
Secondly, i feel like um every form of writing is good practice. for a writer and it's a different form. It's a very personal anecdotal between you and me kind of voice that I enjoy practicing. And I also feel like I have the pride of thinking I'm gonna make this really good.
00:59:40
Speaker
i'm not gonna have it be sloppy and poorly written. i want it to be like a writing, a reading pleasure that it doesn't matter that much what it's about, but that it's something that you read and feel like, oh, that was fun to read. And there were turns of phrase that I enjoyed.
01:00:05
Speaker
So, you know, it really is, it's just fun. it's a way of being in touch with readers while I'm working on a much bigger project. So as I've, you know,
01:00:19
Speaker
dove into this new book, the sub stack gives me a chance to sort of exercise my writing skills in the interim.
01:00:30
Speaker
Nice. And for and the other last thing from Kim, this is more for a at her students. see If you were starting out as a writer today, what would you do differently? And what advice should Kim be giving her students?
01:00:45
Speaker
There's not a lot I would do differently, to be honest. um And that's not, I'm not saying that to be sort of arrogant, but, you know, i believed from the very beginning that I wanted to write as much as possible and that it made sense to take lots and lots of assignments from lots and lots of places and, you know, just learn what it was like to be a writer.
01:01:16
Speaker
Sure, we all dream of writing for The New Yorker, but as a young writer getting started, i thought, let me write for everywhere that I can, you know, just to keep getting better and better and practice this skill that I want to perfect.
01:01:36
Speaker
I think as much as this sounds ah absolutely like the worst advice, I think imitating the writers you admire is a great thing for young writers to do.
01:01:51
Speaker
you know, people used to apprentice by imitating people who were masters at their craft. If you were a shoemaker, you would have an apprentice who would literally try to copy your exact behavior.
01:02:06
Speaker
And rather than, um you know, being scared of that idea of imitating the people who do this well, I think it's a really good thing to do. And that, that's not the same as plagiarism. Right. Yeah. I, think you know, let's be very clear about that. But I think, you know, I actively tried to imitate the writers who I most admired. And the good thing is i never,
01:02:37
Speaker
was good at imitating them. I was always still writing in my own voice. But the practice of trying to imitate them led me to really analyze the way they did their work, figure out how you could do certain things, what transitions look like, how you introduce new characters. I mean, it's a it's how you learn.
01:03:01
Speaker
And i think for young writers, um we've all gotten very scared of the idea of plagiarism as we should be, but I think we shouldn't forget that imitating the people who do it well is how you learn.
01:03:21
Speaker
And and and i would say, secondly, the other thing I would say to students is think about developing story ideas and because that's how you're going to get a job.
01:03:33
Speaker
Yeah, perfect. Really well put, Susan. And um last question I always love ah ending these conversations with is just asking the guests, you in this case, for a fun recommendation for some kind for the listeners. And that can just be anything you're excited about.
01:03:47
Speaker
And so I would extend that to you. Oh, wow. What am I excited about? um Well, i you know, one thing I'm really excited about, which sounds very un- not novel or shocking is I've become a great lover of audio books.
Audiobooks and Closing Thoughts
01:04:08
Speaker
And, um, that might seem anathema to a writer, but of course it's not at all. i mean, audio books are actually bringing us back to the very original form of storytelling, which was oral. Um, and I'm so excited about it because I'm also able to read much, much more then i can if I'm just reading books. So um i would say like digging in, and you know reading listening to an audio book is real reading.
01:04:45
Speaker
So don't think it's not. It absolutely is. And um I would like to encourage people to look at libro.fm where you can buy audio books from your independent bookseller.
01:04:59
Speaker
You don't have to buy them all on Audible. um So you designate which local indie bookstore you want to support, which is a really nice aspect of you know of that.
01:05:13
Speaker
You know, as a latecomer to audiobooks, I'm really excited about it. I i just started reading the Elizabeth Strout book, Things We Never Say. i think I got that title wrong.
01:05:26
Speaker
But I just feel like I have a new friend when I start an audiobook, and that'll keep me company driving around L.A. And believe me, that's saying something.
01:05:37
Speaker
Awesome. Susan, I'm so glad we got to do this, I believe, for the fourth time on mics on this podcast. So it just as always, thanks for your generosity of spirit to come and talk shop. And and ah as always, thank you for the wonderful work that gives us an excuse to keep firing up these mics.
01:05:55
Speaker
Well, thank you. And it's always such a pleasure to talk to you. And I love i love talking shop. So this is really fun. And you're you do such a great job. So thanks for including me.
01:06:11
Speaker
You heard that, right? We've got it on record. We've got it on tape. Okay, good. Yes. Awesome. Thanks to Susan for coming back on the show.
01:06:21
Speaker
She's up there for the most all-time visits with four. I think the record is five, and that might be Bryn Jonathan Butler. He might be the clubhouse leader. Susan nipped at his heels. Be sure you share and subscribe to this podcast and follow the show on Instagram at Creative Nonfiction Podcast. More important are subscribing to Pitch Club and the Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter.
01:06:43
Speaker
Embeds can be found brendanomero.com for those. You may also like to join the Patreon crew at patreon.com slash cnfpod to chip in a few bucks to get access to the Flash 52 sessions and perhaps some bonus video content or and or bonus newslettery kind of thing.
01:07:00
Speaker
Working out the kinks on that, just want to throw something. It might be like a monthly thing, just a bit a a bit something extra with all that extra time I have. I was cleaning out my journal box and moving all my journals to a banker's box with the hopes that maybe some someday they'll all catch fire and I'll never have to see them again. I found my first one, and the first entry is December 16, 1996. 30 years ago. This year, I started cataloging my life.
01:07:25
Speaker
thirty years ago this year i started cataloging my life yeah I read some really painful... Hold on. I read some entries from a ah couple editions after, from when my wife and I started dating, and it is...
01:07:45
Speaker
Oh boy, it is painful to read. Painful. The puppy dog love. ah Oh God, it's so bad. And then there are other things I was wrestling with at the time. and yeah i had just finished college and trying to figure out what my life was going to look like.
01:08:04
Speaker
ah still having roommates. It was a rough time. And I don't like that person I was like one bit. Just really selfish and immature. yeah I'm not so sure. and I'm really not sure why i had any friends at all or anybody wanted to be friends with me. And maybe that's harsh because everybody in their low to mid-20s is a fucking moron.
01:08:26
Speaker
ah But then I came across a journal from 2014 that And I was 34, so maybe a bit further along. Close to 12 years at this point ago, let's say. And I had emailed a mentor of mine, Norm Sims from UMass, to see if he would forward a career question to Michael Paterniti for me, who was writing a lot of brilliant things for GQ, among others.
01:08:53
Speaker
And that's right around the time i was a bit frustrated. That's when the tires were starting to spin in the mud. you know, when I reference, you know an older version of me who would have really loved Pitch Club, like that's the person who would have eaten Pitch Club alive and just be like, oh my God, this is, this is what I needed.
01:09:15
Speaker
Anyway, and and Michael is who was something of a big ass deal at the time, you know, still is in my opinion, but he hasn't been quite on the forefront of late. I think he's just taken a step back or maybe not as public facing as he was if he ever was. I don't know.
01:09:30
Speaker
And he's going to be on the podcast at some point this year. I'd like to think we've been in touch over the last year or so. Thanks Mira Patasson, who was an atavist writer on the podcast. She put us back in touch. And Michael actually remembers this email he sent me. But this is just total coincidence that I have it right here.
01:09:50
Speaker
I'll get to that in a second. So in 2013, 2014, my wife and I were about to move down to New Jersey from upstate New York for my wife's job. It was a tricky time for me as a writer as I was trying to get traction and I was failing.
01:10:05
Speaker
was just really frustrated. i had started the podcast by then, spitting out an episode here and there with no real consistency yet. But it was me at that point metabolizing a lot of the nasty feelings I was having at the time. I've talked about that ad nauseum.
01:10:22
Speaker
Ad nauseum. I was freelancing but not doing the kind of work that Michael was doing. The kind of work that I really wanted to do. It's sad that I'm still not really doing the kind of work, but that's really my bad. Those long-form features, like doing a couple of those a year.
01:10:40
Speaker
Doing the kind of work that typically gets anthologized in, say, a year's best sports writing or something. That's always been the work I've wanted to do on top of books. And whatever. We're not going there.
01:10:52
Speaker
So I had printed this email out and taped it in my journal. ah because he He wrote back. he and it was And it's a good thing I printed it out because I have since deleted this email account and everything that was in it. So Michael wrote. Here we go.
01:11:07
Speaker
Hang tight. And I got this. i I taped it into my journal September 13, 2014. fourteen Hi, Brendan. You don't know me, but Norm Sims passed along your email address. You don't know me. Come on now.
01:11:19
Speaker
and said you are soon to move to and NYC with hopes of working for more magazines there. He also asked if I might have any advice. It's funny. My advice isn't to network, which you probably should.
01:11:30
Speaker
Maybe start by volunteering at 826 or working whatever contacts you have, or to sacrifice your ethics to make a splash. You shouldn't, in other words, write articles about how you conduct all your most important phone calls in boxer shorts or whatever, unless that really floats your boat.
01:11:44
Speaker
What I would do, however, is take every opportunity, large or small, to do something original and kick ass. In other words, whether it's 300 words or 3,000, I'd treat it the same, as if your livelihood depended on it.
01:11:58
Speaker
In the process, I'd certainly try to be more responsive to all editorial comments. I'd try never to miss a deadline. My own thought at this beginning was reduced to this.
01:12:09
Speaker
Make them say yes, or make your editor's job easier. They're really both the same. You're working for a client who in the end needs to be pleased with the job you've done. Your artistry is confined and enlarged by their parameters.
01:12:25
Speaker
Beyond this then, keep working to improve, keep reading everything you can, read outside your genre, all this stuff you already know, I'm sure. But the sharper you are, the more precise, the more able to translate scenes and ideas into compelling words, the better your shot.
01:12:42
Speaker
The mistake, I think, is that sometimes people say to themselves, if only I knew X or Y at Z. Maybe I'm naive, but I've seen so many assignments turned down or killed by friends working with friends that I'm left believing the best work rises, contacts or not.
01:12:59
Speaker
Of course, you can keep pushing to widen your circle a little. That's important. But what should be foremost is this question. Can I show someone a great query, backed by a great clip, that might inspire an assignment?
01:13:12
Speaker
I don't know. I hope that's helpful. It's a really tough business and getting a little tougher, I think. But at the same time, there are all these new platforms, especially online. So keep making sentences for whomever and stay optimistic and treat it a bit like a marathon if you can afford to.
01:13:28
Speaker
And then trust your preparation and ability. Wishing you all the best. Mike. And my gosh, isn't that still the case a dozen years later? I've heard many writers come on the show and echo this sentiment any number of times. yeah Make your editor's job easier. You're working for a client. It's what Tony Rahagan said back on episode 514. He sees editors as clients that he's trying to please.
01:13:51
Speaker
A network can only take you so far, but if you have great ideas, like Susan Earlene just talked about, ah backed up by a body of work, and you are relentless in your querying, you're going to give yourself the best chance. And that's all you can really ask for.
01:14:06
Speaker
yeah I've always been grateful for that email Mike sent, and I'm glad I have a record of it. yeah I wish I had put some of those tactics into practice quicker, because over the next six years...
01:14:17
Speaker
From 2014 to 2020, I'd be working for a landscaping company, Whole Foods Market, a bookstore, not as sexy as it sounds, a wine cellar, not as sexy as it sounds, and finally, an opinion page editor for a more abundant newspaper, about as sexy as it sounds.
01:14:35
Speaker
Now, things are proceeding. Good things have happened the past couple of years. But right now, I'm in the breakdown lane with four flat tires and a trough of despair, a pit, if you will. And that brings me to what I wrote on the cover of this edition of my journal.
01:14:50
Speaker
On the cover, I wrote Make the Climb. And now, at that time, I was obsessed with the Dark Knight trilogy. Great trilogy. I watched it all the time. Sometimes I just have it in the background.
01:15:02
Speaker
And then The Dark Knight Rises, you Bruce Wayne is imprisoned in a pit by bane said to be impossible to climb out of. After many failed attempts with a rope around his waist that I think should have snapped his back in half, but we won't go there.
01:15:19
Speaker
ah After he had done that a final time, he's laying in despair, and ah and in a someone in a neighboring cell was talking to him about fear, and he just says, make the climb.
01:15:34
Speaker
And in the face of the greatest fear of all, the fear of death, make the climb. And many of us are down and we're only out if we allow ourselves to be. And if that's out of your own agency, then that's fine.
01:15:47
Speaker
But I'd encourage you as I am now at the bottom of something, not quite a nadir, but low to make the climb. So stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do interview, see ya.