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00:00:01
Chris Dyer: Show Up When It Matters
13 Plays2 hours ago
In this episode, Eric talks with Chris Dyer, leadership expert and author of Moments That Matter, about a simple idea that most leaders miss: not every moment carries the same weight.
Organizations often try to treat everything as urgent. Every meeting matters. Every email matters. Every interaction matters. The result is exhaustion and noise. Yet when people look back on their careers, their teams, or their leaders, they rarely remember the routine moments. They remember the times someone showed up when it truly counted.
Chris shares the experience that sparked the book. After selling his company, former employees told him something unexpected. They did not talk about policies or processes. They talked about how the organization showed up during crises, personal losses, and difficult transitions. Those were the moments that defined the culture.
The conversation explores how leaders can recognize these moments before they pass, why physical signals like anxiety or urgency often indicate that something meaningful is happening, and how organizations unintentionally erase important moments by standardizing every response. Most people are not failing because they lack effort. They are failing because they are spreading their attention evenly across things that are not equal.
They also discuss culture as social learning, the danger of tolerating small deviations from standards, and the responsibility leaders carry to draw clear lines when something matters. When leaders show up decisively, people remember. When they do not, the absence is just as memorable.
At its core, this is a conversation about discernment. About presence. And about the discipline of knowing when to step forward and when to get out of the way.
Topics Covered
- Why people remember big moments, not routine interactions
- The difference between trying to be perfect and being present
- How leaders unintentionally dilute important moments
- Recognizing the physical signals that a moment matters
- Culture as a process of social learning
- Why standards are set by what leaders tolerate
- The danger of treating everything as urgent
- Showing up decisively when values are tested
- Supporting employees during crisis and transition
- Letting teams handle the small things on their own
- The role of visibility in building trust and reputation
- How organizations lose meaning when every response is standardized
- The discipline of choosing where to invest your attention
Episode Links
- Learn more about Chris: https://chrisdyer.com
- Chris’ new book, Moments That Matter: https://chrisdyer.com/moments
- Good to Great by Jim Collins: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Great-Some-Companies-Others-ebook/dp/B0058DRUV6/
- The Great Game of Business by Jack Stack: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Game-Business-Expanded-Updated/dp/B00UB28XJ2/
- The Inner Game of Tennis by W. Timothy Gallwey: https://www.amazon.com/The-Inner-Game-of-Tennis-audiobook/dp/B0012FK22S/
For more episodes: https://unfoldingthought.com
Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com
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Transcript
Chris's Multifaceted Journey
00:00:02
Speaker
Chris, thank you for joining me. Where does today's recording find you? I'm in Orange County, California, and it finds me very well. Thank you. Chris, how do you describe yourself? God, that's an interesting question. How do I describe myself? I don't know.
00:00:17
Speaker
ah Like most people, i you know, a human being with a lot of different titles and a lot of different, I guess, layers depends on who you're talking to. But on a professional level, I'm someone who just...
00:00:31
Speaker
seems to have somehow luckily followed the wind into a couple different things and been very fortunate to have had businesses, have new businesses, to be a speaker, to be an author. And most of that just happened out of me being curious and willing to say yes and to go try things.
00:00:50
Speaker
Um, not out of some master plan that I wrote down, you know, 20 years ago that I've been executing on. It's more like, oh, that looks interesting. Let's go try that. I think that's kind of been my guiding thing of like, does it excite me? Do I want to do it? Do I get joy out of it? If it does, cool, let's go do it. And if not, then, you know, let it go.
Starting a Business Post-9/11
00:01:10
Speaker
What are some of those things that you have been interested in and you know, those things you've been willing to say yes to? I said yes to starting a company back in 2001. ah was working for somebody else that I didn't like and, you know, just sort was taking that safe route of, I have a mortgage and I have a car payment. I'll just let somebody else worry about the business and I just take a check. and And so September 11th happened and that was like my, hey, dummy, like you're supposed to be doing this other stuff. And that was like, okay, I have this idea. Let's go wrong with that. And that did that for 20 plus years and then sold the company.
00:01:46
Speaker
Along that way, someone asked me to be on a podcast, like in a studio, in ah in a real radi a radio station kind of a scenario. And the guy who ran the ah that studio said, you know, hey, that was interesting. You should actually have your own show. And I'm like, okay, that seems interesting. And I did that for 10 years, it you know, most, except, you know, COVID and all that, like most of the time in an actual studio and bringing in guests or sometimes virtually.
00:02:15
Speaker
And because I did that, like a publisher came and knocked on my door and was like, hey, do you want to write a book? And I'm like, don't tell my fifth grade, you know, English teacher because they'll laugh that I would ever be an author. But like, sure, that seems interesting. Let's go try that. i mean, it just those are like the kinds of things that kept happening. And um same thing with speaking people. Someone came and asked me like, hey, we heard your company does cool stuff with culture. Will you come talk to us about it?
00:02:41
Speaker
I was in front of six HR folks in the back of a Best Western having a pancake breakfast and like talking to them about culture. And 15 years later, I'm doing this. That's like my full-time job, you know? So just, I think people ask you to do stuff and you say, I'm sure I said yes to a thousand things that and didn't go anywhere, but I said yes to those things that
From Business to Broadcasting
00:03:03
Speaker
did go somewhere. And I think that's, that's the thing i always try to remind people of is like that first step is saying yes.
00:03:09
Speaker
You said that you got asked to be on a podcast because your company worked in culture or was it the radio show at that point? um So I got asked to be on the radio show because of some of the things. We were named one of the best places to work in our area like year after year. And I think someone else who was focusing on leadership was like, hey, you guys are keep showing up on this list, coming let's come tell us what you're doing.
00:03:34
Speaker
Come talk about it. um And so, anyways, when they asked me to be on, to go do a radio show, I went back to my team and like, this guy wants me to do a radio show. And they were oh my gosh, you have to do this, Chris. And I'm like, what are guys talking about? You know?
00:03:51
Speaker
were like, you read these books, you come back to these conferences, you tell us all these things. And like, we appreciate it, Chris, but like, you need an outlet to go talk about that stuff over there, like
Innovative Management and Challenges
00:04:00
Speaker
to another audience. And I was, oh, all right. You know, and they kind of jumped at it.
00:04:05
Speaker
You mentioned writing a book and i read, as I mentioned before we started recording, The Power of Company Culture. You have published a second edition of that. I think that was a few years ago, if I recall correctly. And I believe you had a second book as well.
00:04:24
Speaker
You talk in The Power of Company Culture about your business and the radio show and all of that. So before we get into your speaking and your interests and all this, would you mind giving me a little bit of background on what your company did?
00:04:43
Speaker
And I'm really curious about the radio show as well. And then we can talk about the book and so on. Yeah, so my company was a background check and a human capital company. We did, ah yeah if you're hiring somebody, then we were there to help you with assessments and drug testing and background checks and all the compliance and the whole thing.
00:05:06
Speaker
um and And so it wasn't a particularly sexy ah company. I mean, it was just boring old compliance and making sure you know criminals didn't end up getting access to your money or to your children or things like that.
00:05:20
Speaker
Um, and, but I think the interesting part of that was i learned, you know, about 2009 that how I was running the company was wildly flawed.
00:05:33
Speaker
I had a very antiquated, and I would say a very traditional view of how to run a company how to manage people. And when the recession hit in 2009,
00:05:45
Speaker
bake the company was not able to help me. They all just essentially stared at me and said, tell us what to do, Chris. And i was like, that's not the kind of company I want.
00:05:57
Speaker
Like when when when when you know what hits the fan, like I want to people who are coming to me with ideas that are, you know, motivated and and have ownership and and, you know, the capacity to help me.
00:06:13
Speaker
You know, I don't need a bunch of robots who can just help me during the good times. I need, you know, good thinkers and people are passionate about saving the organization when we hit the bad times. And so I totally retooled the organization and totally changed how I operated. That's the most important story is I, as the CEO, totally changed my operating system and how i what i what I did and what I cared about and how I spent my time.
People First Philosophy
00:06:40
Speaker
no longer spent my time kind of helping sales and kind of helping marketing. kind of Instead, I spent all my time, like, how do I help people meet better? How do I help them get their work done more efficient efficiently? I and became the person who had the virtual machete out and was helping them cut through the crap every day instead of, like, how do I come in and tell you how to do your job?
00:07:03
Speaker
You know, we hired you to do your job. You go do your job. I'm going to help you. Like you're in 500 meetings all week. Like how do we cut that down to 200 instead of 500? Like how do I help you be more efficient? Like that became my job.
00:07:17
Speaker
And so i just thought I was doing the right thing for my company. Turns out that I was considered a crazy person. I was doing these things that nobody else would ever think of doing. That I was this outlier.
00:07:30
Speaker
And I just thought it was common sense. I thought it was it was what I was seeing the best organizations do really well. And so that just kind of caught fire. And that's how I was offered the radio show. That's how I was offered the book.
00:07:43
Speaker
And the rest is history. Were there books or speakers or thinkers or anything like that that helped you figure out
Influential Leadership Books
00:07:55
Speaker
what your new model or approach should be or the things you should try out?
00:08:01
Speaker
Sure. So something like the, think of some books like ah Good to Great, where I was okay with being, company being good, but how do you make it great? And later on, my North Star became, i want my organization to be the best place that my employees will ever work in their career.
00:08:22
Speaker
They may not be with me forever. They may not stay the whole time. I'm not looking for people to be lifers necessarily, but When they're on their deathbed and if someone says, where's the best place you ever worked, they're going like that company, Chris's company. that that That's what I wanted. and And that's now what I help organizations do.
00:08:39
Speaker
When I'm there speaking, when I'm consulting, I'm helping organizations create the best place their employees are ever going work. and And the good news about that is we all can do that.
00:08:51
Speaker
It's not like there's only one gold medalist and only one company can do it. and Then there's a two second place. and we all can achieve that goal if we want to. um the The Great Game of Business by Jack Stack, that really taught me about the value and what can happen when we are radically transparent at work.
00:09:10
Speaker
So when you actually give people your P&L, you actually tell people how the business is run, you actually show them the goals and we were we're wildly transparent with each other.
00:09:22
Speaker
It's amazing how they have better ideas. It's amazing how they're actually able to help you when they actually know what you know, instead of us holding all that, you know, as some sacred cow away from everything else that they're that they're doing.
00:09:37
Speaker
um ah There's a The Care Principle, Chester Eldon, and there's just's tons of great books out there that really got me thinking about how do I do things differently?
00:09:49
Speaker
um And and that was this that was the starting point, right? And then it was, we developed that into a system and then we began working with hundreds of other organizations and saw it worked for them.
00:10:01
Speaker
We had Walden University actually did a major research study and proved that the seven pillars that i we had identified were actually the correct seven pillars. that that's That's what organizations do need to focus on to be successful.
Empowerment and Learning from Mistakes
00:10:13
Speaker
um so that But it kind of layered over time, but like those were the those were the starting points. How much did this retooling involve changing your habits and behaviors?
00:10:27
Speaker
And then how much did it involve changing the people who were in your organization? Or we there are, I'm sure, other things, Chris, therere processes, technology, whatever else. What what went into this?
00:10:40
Speaker
So the most important thing i always want people to remember is that with any change or in any focus here and any goal of us wanting to have a great culture and a great company.
00:10:52
Speaker
And even if you're like, I just want to make a lot of money and I don't care about my people, even if that's your terrible view of the world, it still works. This is still applicable. um Hopefully that's not, but like it still works.
00:11:04
Speaker
It's people first. We have to figure out how to help our people first. And then we figure out what are the processes that will help our people do their best work. And then what are the tools?
00:11:18
Speaker
And last, what is the technology? And yet we have seen this time and time again. We are seeing it right now with AI that people are coming in and saying, here's this great new technology.
00:11:30
Speaker
It does has all these cool tools. Figure it out. And then article after article and study after study, the productivity gains are not there. They're not seeing, they're not getting input. a bunch of CEOs went and fired a bunch of employees and had to hire them back because the AI didn't do what they thought it was going to do because they're not starting with the people.
00:11:52
Speaker
Right. That's that's the most important thing. So I had to start with what are the things that I need to think about and do for my people? First, before I worried about all the other parts, that was one half. Now, the other half, ah to address your question, like, what did I have to do differently?
00:12:12
Speaker
And what i figured out pretty quickly, um and this is actually a lesson I got from you know therapy, was you can only do your 50%.
00:12:25
Speaker
can't make anybody else do their part. Now, I have the luxury. I would guess we all have the luxury in any relationship to stop that relationship. It's a lot easier. I probably let an employee go than it is to get a divorce.
00:12:37
Speaker
But, you know, you you in any relationship, you got your part. And so are you doing your part as the best you can? And what I found was that when I really upped my game and I was delivering on my 50 percent,
00:12:51
Speaker
how much better my employees got, how much more they showed up, and how much more they did the things that I wanted them to do as a part of their
Coaching for Team Growth
00:13:00
Speaker
50%. And so what it's pretty common for us to be under-delivering as a leader and yet expecting our people to be outperforming and to be delivering as more than that 50%. And that's just not going to work.
00:13:14
Speaker
And I'll give you the biggest example of this was that I stopped telling people the answer to questions. If what I want from people is great ideas and i want them to think about things and I want them to come up with solutions and I want them to be actively integrated into the business, I can't just give them the answer every time because then they don't know how to get to the answer the next time on their own.
00:13:40
Speaker
They're just using me as the crutch.
00:13:43
Speaker
If someone came to me was going to make a million-dollar mistake, yes, I would stop them and give them the answer. But, like, I was willing to let them go make a $15,000 error just to get a learn. I was willing to let them go screw it up. Potentially, like, going to down the wrong path, and I would, you know, I'd ask them questions. i they They'd be like, I think this is the way I should go. Great. Go try it out. Let me know how it works. And they would come back to me. and didn't work.
00:14:05
Speaker
I screwed it up. This got messed up. Okay. How are you going fix it? I went through that very painful process for a year and then I never had to do it again. i had the most people were totally understood how to do everything. They understood how everything worked. They understood how I wanted things done.
00:14:22
Speaker
And, but I was like just giving them the answer. And so when times got tough, just go to Chris and ask him how to do it. The bad news is is, I don't know how to do everything perfectly.
00:14:36
Speaker
i'm My one brain is not the actual correct answer for all questions. and And so they actually came back with better answers and better solutions over time.
00:14:48
Speaker
I could tell you a story about what happened in COVID, because this sort of massive shift that we had ah during that time. But it that was the kind of the really big shifts I had to think about. As you're talking, you're reminding me about the inner game and let's see who developed that.
00:15:05
Speaker
The book, The Inner Game of Tennis was written by Timothy Galway, if I recall correctly. And then there were couple of gentlemen who... developed that further and there are some models and some tools that they built upon that one that I'm a big fan of is called grow and it's a coaching tool a focusing tool essentially but as you're you're describing your situation and like you said you know you got a really painful year you're reminding me that
00:15:39
Speaker
I think it was McKinsey, maybe, that studied these coaches. And they found that with this approach that they took, you know, some of the things were active listening, not telling the players what to do, but rather when a tennis coach was coaching a tennis player, instead of saying, no, step like this or twist the racket like that.
00:16:03
Speaker
If they said, well, what did you notice? And they ask them to bring out of themselves what, you know, they already saw or the way that they already understood things, rather than trying to put, if I take and put into your mind, Chris, the words that describe what the way that I see things, you know, you just receive my words differently because you see the world slightly differently. You understand the game of tennis or whatever we're talking about.
00:16:32
Speaker
I think it was McKinsey that studied these coaches and they found that when they took this approach from the inner game and they applied them in sports where the coach didn't actually play the sport, that the athletes performed better.
00:16:51
Speaker
And I think I recall that they took these tennis coaches and they had them coach golf and skiing, you know, like moguls and slalom and I don't know what else.
00:17:04
Speaker
And because the coaches weren't able to say, you're supposed to be doing this, Chris, they had to just ask them questions more or less. And, you know, if the athlete said, well, what do you think I should do in this situation? You know, I'm way oversimplifying this, but you could imagine situation, Chris, where someone in accounting comes to you and they say, how am I supposed to process this thing?
00:17:29
Speaker
And because you don't know, you say, well, how do you think you're supposed to process it? And then when they give you an answer and you don't know if it's a good idea or not, you can say, well, why don't you give that a try? or you can say,
00:17:43
Speaker
I don't know, but do you think that really makes sense? And as you're talking, you're reminding me of this. This is an approach that I'm a big fan of. And, you know, whether you use the same labels, right, of the inner game or active listening or whatever else, I find that if you have the right kind of culture, the right kind of people where you can over time habituate people to, you know, I can go to Chris and I can bounce ideas off of him and I can tell him I've run into a wall and I'm trying to go over around whatever, but,
00:18:24
Speaker
I'm just not solving this, but he might be able to talk it through with me. Right. then you hopefully don't have to have all the answers, but you can at least be a reasonable person and say, i don't know, but have you thought of this? And then hopefully they end up finding solutions that are actually better because they're closer to the problem.
Agile Methodology and Leadership Insights
00:18:46
Speaker
Yeah. And that's actually the reason why Scrum and Agile has been so effective in, especially in software builds, because they actually bring those teams together and they don't just have a team of developers.
00:19:00
Speaker
It's often a team that's got one number of sales, a member of accounting, a member of customer service, couple programmers. Like they understand the whole need of the client across all these different departments.
00:19:12
Speaker
And so, you know what the heck does someone in accounting know about the the software? Well, they don't, but they know that the person wants to be able to download their invoice in a PDF. and Like they understand like certain challenges the developer would never have thought of.
00:19:27
Speaker
And that's why those those shops that run that program are so effective because they've got these perspectives that are 360 degrees around. And so you're bringing up a great point.
00:19:38
Speaker
I just had to get out of the habit because when I started the company, there was five of us in a little tiny office. And I was the only one that knew how to run the business. And they would just come and ask me how to do the thing. And in the beginning, I was, that was the correct model because they didn't know anything.
00:19:55
Speaker
i just never undid that bad habit. and didn't realize that I was training them to just not even think. It was just go ask Chris. And, and, and I love that example you gave because I have made the joke.
00:20:07
Speaker
I coached for many, many years. I coached water polo, swimming, soccer, basketball. mean, so many youth sports and, uh, competitive sports. I did junior Olympic swimming and, um, I have jokingly said, you put me on any sport and I i'm ah i'm i can go and coach them.
00:20:25
Speaker
I don't need to know. I mean, I can go look it up. I can get the rules of the game. The whole like Ted Lasso and he went like from being a football player to coaching soccer. Like that's not that crazy to me like that. I i would have been that crazy to say, sure, I'll do that. i don't know anything about that because a good coach is a good coach.
00:20:42
Speaker
You know, maybe not at the professional level, that's not going to work. But like, I mean, I have thought I could go coach in the NFL. Like I could figure it don't need to have actually done that thing. Getting the most out of somebody and helping them achieve their best or some level of like the right process is the right process. And you don't necessarily have to have the shared all of the shared experiences, maybe at the most elite level you do, but like, I think your point is very well taken that it's more about helping someone see it for themselves um and helping them through that than anything else.
00:21:16
Speaker
As you were going through this learning process and the transformation of sorts for your own business, you know, I realize this is just one case, but you so you described it as, I think, a very painful year.
00:21:32
Speaker
What was the experience like or what do you believe the experience was like for the people that worked with you? I'm sure that they were, went through it a bit of an adjustment. I just, I remember during that time that it was so ah such an acute problem. We were trying to save the business. We were trying to deal with the recession.
00:21:53
Speaker
I was trying to totally change how we do things, and I didn't really have time to say, hey, everyone, how do you feel about this? It was like, this is what we're doing. Get on board or get out. Like, you know, and they ultimately saw it was for their benefit and and it was better. So they did.
00:22:12
Speaker
but You know, in hindsight, it was like, I probably should have been measuring satisfaction, or I probably should have been asking them, like, you know, those kinds of questions, but I didn't. It was, you know, sink or swim kind of those scenario.
00:22:25
Speaker
um But, you know... We were trying to be... the the first thing that we did was being radically transparent. And so we were telling them what we were trying to do. We were telling them why we were trying to do it.
00:22:39
Speaker
We were telling them when we tried something and it didn't work and we here's how we fixed it or here's what we did it instead. And so they were very aware of of all of this. And it wasn't like they just showed up and all of a sudden their deaths were in a different position and they didn't know why. like I mean, everything was...
00:22:57
Speaker
We were over communicating along the way, even if we weren't asking them how they felt about it. One of your responses to me was that you you realized you always start with the people, then process, then technology.
00:23:10
Speaker
And so how did you come to that realization? As I looked at the best organizations, I went and studied a lot of them, talked to a lot of mentors, lot of great leaders, people whose businesses did great, and asking them like questions about what they did and how they did things and what they did more probably more important than what they didn't do.
00:23:34
Speaker
became very apparent that the best leaders and the best organizations were thinking about all of their problems and all of their um initiatives and all of that, like through the lens of people first.
00:23:49
Speaker
And so i I started there and I was like, well, that's clear that the best organizations think about everything through lens of their people first.
00:24:01
Speaker
and that's your employees. It's also your clients. It's also your vendors. like Any of the people involved in your making your organization run and be successful. And then from there, it was like, okay, but then what was step two? And as we asked those questions, it just became obvious it was process.
00:24:18
Speaker
Yeah. Good organizations had good processes. they had They had thought about those things. Now they challenged them and they came up with new ones and they changed them. And it wasn't like, this is how we do things and we'll never change.
00:24:32
Speaker
but they were really clear with people on, we know what good, we know what a, if you're a nurse, we know what a good shift looks like. We know what are the steps, what are things you're supposed to do, when you give medications, when you check on, like there's a pretty well-known process here like, when do we do things and how do we keep patients safe and all, right? Like those, it's not like it, you don't just show up to be nurse and then like figure it out.
00:24:59
Speaker
You know, like there's some level of process in there. And so you just, it seemed natural to me that that was the order. Right. And also looking at it from the other end, what were were the organizations who were struggling the most?
00:25:12
Speaker
What were they, what were they doing? And they were ah starting with technology or tools every single time.
00:25:23
Speaker
Right. And so that's just, so I sort of created this like people that like greater than the process, greater than tools, greater than technology, you know, model. And earlier when you brought up this order, if I can call it that, you said something to the effect of, and we're seeing problems with this today with AI. So I'm curious,
00:25:50
Speaker
whether it's specific examples or not, what is it that you're seeing? Are you seeing that people are just, you know, saying the executives go away and they come back and they say, we're going to be an AI first company? Or what, what, what are you seeing nowadays? Yeah.
00:26:06
Speaker
There are just some things that never change, it feels like. um And this is one of them, right? They go in the room, the boardroom, and they go, ah how are we going to do this? And they open the door and they go, hey, everyone, now you're doing that. And then they shut the door and then, okay, but why? And what are the goals? And how we supposed to do it? And How does this impact me? Why is this good for me?
00:26:27
Speaker
um and there was ah an example of an ah executive who said he they fired like 80% of their staff or something like this because they wouldn't adopt the AI.
00:26:38
Speaker
and he basically said it was easier to fire all those people and rehire new people who would do what he wanted, which I thought was like, what an example of like terrible leadership. And if you couldn't figure out how to work with your current people,
00:26:52
Speaker
And instead I had to hire people under the, like, you will, your new job is you will do this as a way to get conformity. Wait until the next initiative and all those people that they got, that came in new, or they're all going to get fired.
00:27:07
Speaker
Right? That's just like a really bad way to make But that's like, that's how people do it. they They don't want to spend the time working with people to help them get where they need to be. Because it's like a little bit harder.
00:27:19
Speaker
It's better, but it's a little bit harder. and look Like anything good, right? Eating well, it's a little bit harder, but it's better for you. Exercising, it's a little bit harder, but it's better for you. And it's the same thing.
00:27:32
Speaker
Helping your people, you know, first is a little bit harder, but it's going to get you the best benefit. I had this gentleman, Kyle McDowell, on. He wrote...
00:27:44
Speaker
the The name of the book, i have it right down here, is Begin With We. And essentially, it's 10 principles. They all start with we. You know, we will do this. We are like this, you know.
00:27:55
Speaker
And i liked the book. I really liked talking to Kyle. But I recall at one point him saying something, and please do tell me if you disagree or if there's there's nuance to this, but we were talking about responsibility, or I don't recall exactly what it was.
00:28:15
Speaker
And he said, none of this stuff is mysterious or hard. it's It's actually quite obvious. The hard part is actually doing it.
00:28:27
Speaker
You know, if it's getting in shape or whatever, it's, you have to eat right pretty much every day. You have to exercise whatever form that takes. You have to do it every day. And I feel like some of what you're saying is Some of these things are rather obvious when you put in the time or you've tried a number of different approaches, whatever.
00:28:49
Speaker
And it's not a matter of these things being new necessarily, you know, as a good leadership, if I can broadly characterize it as this. It's more a matter of, are you willing to stick to it for that painful year, perhaps in your case?
00:29:04
Speaker
Probably the best way you know to kind of recapture what he was saying is that people like us do things like this.
00:29:17
Speaker
And that's really an important distinction that you have to figure out. Again, if you look at the best organizations, Let's take Disney, for example.
00:29:29
Speaker
How Disney operates and how what they do and how they treat cast members and how they talk and the little the secret language. and even Even down to their insane dress code.
00:29:40
Speaker
You can only have one set of earrings. and like yeah there's like They're very just prescriptive of like what they expect from people who are front of house, let's say, who are actually with are on guests and all of that.
00:29:52
Speaker
and And you can like that or not like that. You can say, that's not for me, and that's okay. But they're very clear that people like us operate like this.
00:30:04
Speaker
And they have ah a particular view of the world. They have a particular outcome that they're trying to get. And it's for the benefit of the organization and for the benefit of the guests who come to their parks and their hotels and all of that.
00:30:19
Speaker
Again, you as the employee can decide if you're good with that or not. And so what's awesome about Disney is they're so upfront about it. They are wildly transparent. They tell them, they train them, they talk about it.
00:30:31
Speaker
like It's interesting, they're talking about doing a huge retraining for a lot of cast members right now because a lot of them were hired very quickly. they They lost some really long-term employees because of COVID. they made it and They made a big mistake by laying off a bunch of them, not knowing what was going to happen.
00:30:50
Speaker
And then those a lot of those people didn't come back. And so they had to hire a lot of fresh faces. And they're saying that they don't have quite the guest experience that they're wanting that they used to have. and so But again, it's like they had to do it so quickly. They probably were cutting corners a little bit with people like us do things like that.
00:31:10
Speaker
And, but when when you're that honest and then the employee signs up and then they've gone the first couple days and weeks and months and like, you know, it's pretty clear. Are you, are you one of us or not?
00:31:23
Speaker
And if you continue to say yes to that, that question, you're going to continue to be happy in that organization. And if the answer is no, that's when your three months comes up, it's time you need go get another job, right?
00:31:38
Speaker
That's the only a real way for organizations to operate is for them to be, and Netflix is another a great example of like, I think if they won't rehire, like if they wouldn't rehire them, like after what they know after the three months or whatever that time period is, like if they say, if I wouldn't rehire them now today, knowing what I know about them after they've been here, they need to go.
00:31:59
Speaker
And I give them a really nice severance package and all of that. But like, they're ruthless about if you're not someone like us, like this isn't, you don't follow this prescription, then it's not a right fit.
00:32:10
Speaker
You've said the word, I think we've both said the word culture and it's in the title of one of your books. And you, you know, I think when you say, you know, people like us, that's more or less the way that I will characterize some of the unconscious and, you know, the, the social learning aspect of culture.
00:32:34
Speaker
as opposed to values, which have to be stated, but can be interpreted in a number of different ways. But I'm going to, before I throw something, you know, too out of left field at you, can you, would you mind describing your book, The Power of Company Culture, and then tell me how that kind of plays into either the consulting you do or your thinking today?
00:33:04
Speaker
Sure. So the book um is really three parts. It's what do you got to do to at least be good? what are the What are the basics of a good culture? So you mentioned values, statements, and you know like how do we be clear and how do we figure out who we are what we care about, and communicate that to our people? So what's the baseline of like good culture? Yeah.
00:33:28
Speaker
And if you want to stop there, you can stop reading at the at the end of the part of one. I mean, that's like that you want to do that. Now, you're never going to be the market leader. You're never going to maximize profit, performance, or productivity. But you at least know what to do not to suck.
00:33:43
Speaker
Part two is what do you have to do to be great? that's all my research and that's all the case studies with NASA and VaynerMedia and Caesars Entertainment and like all these big companies that but i went and did some work with and and really dove in and um to understand them at ah and a really deep level.
00:34:02
Speaker
What do you have to do to be great? And that gets into the seven pillars that I mentioned. So what are those seven things? How do you how do you do them? Give you good examples of them. I even give you like different different ways to do it. So in the recognition pillar, tell you what Caesars does and then I tell you what I did. And they're really radically different. But it's just you need to figure out how to do it for yourself.
00:34:26
Speaker
The last part of the book, the third part, is let's say you agree with me. Let's say you think this is correct. Let's say you've made it this far in the book and you're like, Chris, I'm going to do this. I'm going to make my team or my company or my division or my department or whatever it is you actually have authority over.
00:34:44
Speaker
I'm going to make it the best it can be. How do you actually get people to change? And so the third part is really the change management piece of how do we deal with cognitive biases? How do we deal with helping people understand change, deal with change?
00:35:00
Speaker
How do we talk to each other, get better feedback? like All the messy human stuff that we tend to screw up. That's what that's about. And what's interesting is that is actually the most ah up-to-date relevant thing that I'm dealing with or I'm talking to organizations about right now because they're going through so much change.
00:35:23
Speaker
My most popular keynote and the thing that I'm helping organizations the most with right now is thriving through relentless change. and And I'm using that toolkit from that third part of the book. So you might say, I have a great culture or I'm good to go. i just need to know how to deal with all this AI stuff. Well, go buy the book and go to the section three.
00:35:44
Speaker
you know And you could just read the change management part and that would be fine. um Because that's really the the thing we're we're struggling with right now. um In my new book that comes out in in March, um I'm targeting something else, you know, for leaders.
00:36:00
Speaker
But that's really the the crux of the work that I've been doing in the last really the last two or three years. But especially in the last year, it has become acutely the number one thing that organizations are screaming for help with.
00:36:15
Speaker
is how do we help? How do we deal with all this change? Why is all this change happening? And how the heck do I get my people, you know, to to to make a hard left turn so we can keep the organization going?
00:36:29
Speaker
Has your thinking about change changed since you've, you know, written your books or changed in the last year as people are asking more for this kind of work?
00:36:40
Speaker
Not really. um it It's still, again, there are some things that just don't ever change. You can bring an AI and change how we do the work, but like the change management piece is still the same.
00:36:53
Speaker
Humans are still the same. the All of this, these problems are still the same. You know, it was it was a different problem 10 years ago than it was, you a different problem five years ago. And now it's a different problem today, but it's still the same problem when it comes to the human beings involved.
00:37:11
Speaker
And, you know, so, and I would say the biggest thing is that we want people to change. We want people to do something.
00:37:23
Speaker
So I'll give you a really silly example. Let's say you um where did you happen to walk into a room in some building. You don't know me. i don't know you.
00:37:35
Speaker
And i open up a door and it has a very dark room in there. And I say, hey, will you come in this room with me? You should say, hell no. Because you don't know what is in that dark room. You don't know anything about anything. Like, you have no context. have no information. And yet, and yet, that we do this all the time at work.
00:37:59
Speaker
Like, hey, I'm in accounting. You don't know me. But I need you to do all these things for me. And you're like, I don't know you. I don't know what you want from me. Like, I don't know what what a success looks like. I don't, mean you know, and maybe get forced to do it because your boss said so, but like tons of resistance.
00:38:16
Speaker
But if we move people up the level of understanding, again, this is being transparent, this is spending the time to explain things to people, this is starting with people, we will get more engagement.
00:38:29
Speaker
So if you kind of think as like an X and Y graph, you know, and like think about a nice little, like you're back to geometry class or trigonometry or whatever, right? The bottom left is like, I know nothing and I'm going to do nothing.
00:38:44
Speaker
You might have told me you want that report, but I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. I'm not going to that dark room with you. No. Now, if you, if if someone else walks in the room and goes, oh, hey, I see you met my friend, Chris. He's a really nice guy. And I'm like, yeah, I'm sorry. I introduce myself.
00:38:59
Speaker
I can't find the light switch. I lost my glasses. Like suddenly you're getting more information and it makes little more sense about why I'm asking you to come in this dark room and help me. Like, and some other friend told you I'm a nice person. Like, you know, you might still be a little cautious, but like,
00:39:13
Speaker
More information suddenly gets you to move, just to do something for me, to to change your behavior, to do something. And that that's literally what we focus on. How do we help people deeply understand?
00:39:26
Speaker
The more we can help them deeply understand. Not everybody wants to deeply understand. That is a ah problem. ah Sometimes they get to a certain level of understanding and they don't want to go any farther and their engagement level gets stuck.
00:39:40
Speaker
And that might be okay at their position. It also might mean that they need to go. They may not be the right person in that job anymore because they're not willing to go farther with their understanding. But I, again, controlling my 50%, I can try to help them become a deep expert in whatever it is I'm asking or whatever it is we're dealing with so that they will be more engaged and want to do more.
00:40:03
Speaker
that's start with that right there's a million other tricks and a million other things to deal with but like they got to understand if you want them to do something you i forget how you put it earlier chris but think maybe you were talking about disney and saying you know they're very upfront with who they are what their expectations are do you think that it's fair for me to assume that a lot of organizations don't know who they are.
00:40:34
Speaker
And that's part of the reason that you get hired into a job. And then it turns out that it's a very different experience from what you were sold on or that from year to year to year,
00:40:48
Speaker
our approach, at least as dictated by the executives, seems to change based on whatever business book they read recently. It's that they don't kind of have a foundation or a North Star that it sounds like maybe you had at one point, certainly as you started to change.
00:41:04
Speaker
Yeah, and and those things happen. And i always suggest to people that if if they don't feel like they're in the right place for them and that they, again, they're doing their 50% to bring up those concerns, to to be the best teammate they can, to navigate, there's always going to be changes and like, you know, maybe an executive is going to want to go in direction you didn't want to go, but like, are we still doing something I can get behind? Are we still a good company? You know, think it's not, they want to go left and I would have gone right, but like, we're,
00:41:39
Speaker
That's okay. Like, you know what mean? there's There's a level there. But like, ultimately, if you think this is not what I signed up for, or this is like, you know, this company is just constantly getting in its way because it's like whatever book they read this month and they can't.
00:41:53
Speaker
If you have the ability to go find another job, go find another job. Like, we we have a very short time on this earth. You should be happy. We've spent way too much time at work.
00:42:05
Speaker
Like, do not waste your time. Now, I understand there are some people that don't have maybe the ability to get on their job easily. Maybe there's a limited so supply of those types of jobs. Maybe where they live, there's a limited supply.
00:42:17
Speaker
There's a whole equation there. But if you can, and go find something else. Go do something else. As long as you can you feed yourself and your family and your responsibilities, like, you have to weigh all those decisions. But again, like,
00:42:31
Speaker
all things being normal, if if you're not happy, then go find some... This is a saying that I all' say all the time in my keynotes. What you are not changing, you are choosing.
00:42:45
Speaker
you don't like it, and you're not choosing to fix it or to change it, whose fault is it? It's not the executive's fault. They're going to keep doing what they're doing. So, I understand there are situations where you can't change and you're stuck in that company. You may be...
00:43:02
Speaker
my My wife's a teacher. Like, you know, they get put into school and like they're in the classroom and like they may not like us or maybe take a long time to make a change. that you know, you may work in the military and like you're in the division and you get a new sergeant. Like you can't change that. I get that. is We don't all have the same level of freedom.
00:43:20
Speaker
But as much as you can take control of that, you should. I forget where I encountered this saying, but you said kind of a a variation of this. And it was, it is, if you see something that is not up to standard and you don't fix it, you've set a new standard.
00:43:43
Speaker
And i think we could apply this in any number of places, but you said something earlier about If you as the leader are you know not delivering or you're not doing your job or up something along those lines, and you're expecting that everybody else is doing exactly what you say or whatever, then it's going to be hard for them to follow through or live up to your expectations and
00:44:14
Speaker
You just remind me of that. And I think of this quite often because I try not to be, I don't know, Chris, what we would call it, OCD or anal or something like that about there's the right that. There are right ways of doing things because sometimes the right, quote unquote, right way in my mind is just one way of doing things, right?
00:44:34
Speaker
But I think when we get together in organizations, come back around to one thing you said, people like us do these things or act in these ways or whatever else.
00:44:46
Speaker
That becomes really important that, you know, like culture is one way of describing culture is a process of social learning. You know, you, this is a very stupid example, but I use it often.
00:45:00
Speaker
Like Chris, you or i don't have to touch a hot stove. to know you just don't touch a hot stove. We have been told that other people have touched hot stoves and they say, oh yeah, you don't want to do that.
00:45:17
Speaker
You don't want to learn that lesson. We actually learned that lesson from them, you know, from the the group of people around us and certain, you know, groups, if you have a culture, weak or strong culture, as in cohesion, you know, that that there are strong standards or weak standards, at some point, if you have a culture, then some of these questions, they don't come down to morality or ethics. They don't come down to laws or whatever else. It's just people like us do these things.
00:45:53
Speaker
And so if you see something that's not up to standard and you let it go, you've now started that process of social learning that we are the type of group that will let things not be up to standard.
00:46:09
Speaker
in in my In my new book, ah Moments that Matter, it comes out in March. anyone's interested in ah March 24th and after, you can go grab it on Amazon. Prior to that, you can go chrisdyre.com slash moments to put in your email. i'll happy to let you know when it comes out or learn more about it. But you know part of the part of the crux of the book is that um we have to show up in the big moments.
00:46:39
Speaker
we We are often told, as as you sort of alluded to, like trying to be perfect in every little moment or trying to make everything count and make everything urgent to make everything, you know, a mountain to climb.
00:46:53
Speaker
and And what I have found is that nobody remembers any of the Tuesday 10 a.m. m meetings that we had. Nobody remembers any of the millions of interactions that I had with them, but they remember when I showed up big in a big moment, when something big happened.
00:47:10
Speaker
And I said, no, no, no, people like us don't do things like that. and or Or that's not right and we're not going to handle. A client treated an employee really poorly and i and I said, that's not okay. And I called the client and said, do that again and you're not going to be our client.
00:47:26
Speaker
right Like I put a line in the sand, and when I showed up big or my leader showed up big for their people in those ways, that's what people remembered. And so that when those when those things happen, you've got to show up.
00:47:42
Speaker
And you've got to also release that feeling that you need to get everything right all the time. And instead, you need to be more present about when is a bit when is this a big moment?
00:47:53
Speaker
you know, they always say, don't set don't sweat the small stuff. That's cool. Another way to say that is, make sure you freaking show up when it's something big. Make sure you're ready.
00:48:06
Speaker
Make sure you show up on your your horse with your flag and your your giant sword for your people. And you're like, I'm here and I'm going to help you with this. And we're going you know, we're going to take care of this. And then the little stuff, you just shut up and let them do their thing, right? Let them figure it out and get out of their way. And and what I find is that leaders are really struggling to do that right now because they feel overwhelmed.
00:48:30
Speaker
unclear about what's happening. they felt They feel inept about the tech technology technological changes in AI. they don't they feel like We're in that place where, remember like when interns were like reverse mentoring senior executives on how to use Facebook or how to use yourself? We're back in that kind of mode again.
00:48:51
Speaker
where the young kids know how to use the stuff that they are. I just did a LinkedIn post about this. Like 64% of leaders say they wish they could ask for help, but they feel like it makes them look bad.
00:49:03
Speaker
So we're in this really weird spot of we need to show up big in in the right spots and get the help that we can get and and really think about um what our people need from us and what they don't.
00:49:16
Speaker
Have there been experiences that you've had in, you know, the last year or two or however long it's been that helped you decide that moments that matter were, that that was the thing that really needed your attention?
00:49:36
Speaker
So I tell this story um in my keynotes and also in the book. It's the opening story in the book. um I had some former employees that I ended up having dinner with.
00:49:50
Speaker
And they had done really well. They got good bonuses from me selling the company. The new company loves them, has given them promotions, has given them raises.
00:50:00
Speaker
They have more opportunity. They have its a bigger organization. They have a lot more up more mobility. They have all kinds of great opportunities, right? And from where I'm sitting, like, they're doing great.
00:50:13
Speaker
And what was interesting to me is after we had had a few drinks and had dinner and, you know, a little little, they got a little more courage or a little bit less filtered.
00:50:26
Speaker
They said some version of, to me that they were still mad at me.
00:50:32
Speaker
And I was like, what do you mean you're mad at me? Like you guys are doing great. And they said, no, we're mad at you. We're still mad at you for selling the company. And I'm like, And I'm not arguing back with them, but you're doing so great and you got all this stuff and blah, blah, blah, blah. blah And they said, no.
00:50:48
Speaker
And one of the guy one of the the the employees said, listen, so there's nothing wrong with the new company. CEO's great. The company's great. The people are great. But the work's not the same.
00:51:03
Speaker
And I was like, and I... Okay. and then the other employees, former employee said to me, I would give back all of the money and all the titles and everything to be back working in the old company.
00:51:18
Speaker
That was the best of times. And so it was like one of the best, worst compliments to get. And and they weren't saying this about me personally. like I mean, I had obviously ah something to do with it, but like they were talking about how we operated as an organization and how we thought about things.
00:51:37
Speaker
And that had shifted. That had changed. And they were still in a good organization. there was something We're not unhappy, but they knew that it was different. and And so it took me like, I'm really taken aback by this point. and so It was probably had too many glasses of wine, but like, it took me a minute to like figure out what are you really saying here?
00:52:01
Speaker
And what I got from them was they said, do you remember when We talked about what happened during COVID. that We talked about what we did during the recession. We talked about what we did for employees when they lost their power when in Texas, like in the winter. We talked about what we did for employees when um someone important in their life passed away. like and And I was like, oh you're you're talking about specific moments.
00:52:29
Speaker
And they were like, yeah. like The organization showed up in moments that were really big. And they didn't say this, but I think what they were trying to say was their new organization was just sort of responding to all moments equally and doing their best. And there were good, nothing wrong. and We're not complaining in any way.
00:52:50
Speaker
But that's different than, i don't always get the little moments right, but man, do I get the big moments right, because that's what people remember. And that really, that was the shift I needed to go, ah,
00:53:05
Speaker
This is, again, this is just me getting, we started the conversation off with this. This is me getting lucky and going, and just going, that's interesting. Let me run down that path. And and i ended up writing a book and it turns out that moments matter every in every part of our life.
00:53:24
Speaker
So my other books have all been like business books. This is an elevated, yes, it's about business, but it's also about how you show up for your spouse, or your partner, for your kids, for your neighbors, for your community, right? Like anywhere in your life, you got to know when you're in a moment, you need to know what to do. And then you got to figure out how to make sure that the people you care about know what you did so that they know you're going to do that for them too.
00:53:54
Speaker
doesn't do any good to like show up for your friend if none of your other friends know that you're a really good friend. It's not about bragging, but like if other people know that you're a good person, then they're more likely to maintain that friendship or that relationship with you because they know who you are and what you can't. People like us do things like this, right? It's another way of kind of proving that to people.
00:54:15
Speaker
If I'm not asking you to give away too much of your guidance in the book, how do I recognize that it's one of those moments? It's a good question.
00:54:27
Speaker
um you So
00:54:32
Speaker
our body is actually telling us that we're about to enter a big moment and 99% of us completely ignore it. that' That's the headline, okay?
00:54:45
Speaker
We get the racing heart and the sweaty palms and the the nervous feeling and the like, do our bodies react and we take that as stress.
00:54:59
Speaker
But it's not stress. This is your body telling you. This is it getting excited and it getting in tune with, uh-oh, something big's happening.
00:55:11
Speaker
And what we typically do is go, I'm stressed out. I can't handle this right now. I can't deal with one more thing. I don't want to have this difficult conversation with my wife right now. or I don't want to have this.
00:55:23
Speaker
I don't want to tell my neighbor that they're being a jerk to the other neighbor. like what And we just shove it down and we don't deal with it. our bodies are telling us through one of many different physical responses that, hey, you could be in a moment right now.
00:55:40
Speaker
And so that's the first thing is to start being in tune with, when I start to feel this way, why? And that's like, in the book I suggest, take 30 seconds, do some like little breathing, a little tiny meditation and just say, more is this a moment?
00:56:00
Speaker
is this a big deal for me? Is this a big deal for somebody else? like Like, if it's tomorrow, I'm going to be like, I don't we remember this thing. Well, then, no, it was a small thing. But if I'm like, no, like, geez, seems like a big deal for Eric. Like, he's probably going to talk about this next week and next month and next year. Like, this is a big thing.
00:56:23
Speaker
I can't just run past it and ignore it. Or, If I found out that someone really important in your life, just got diagnosed with cancer, I could ignore it. I could send you an email. I could text you.
00:56:38
Speaker
I might pick up the phone and call you. Or if like you were in the same town as me, maybe I might offer to go have coffee with you or go have a beer and like talk to you about it. There's a different way for me to show up.
00:56:50
Speaker
if I know it's a big deal to you, or if I know it's a big deal for me, and there's there's just two ways to think about it, right? Am I in a moment or do I know someone who's in a moment?
00:57:00
Speaker
So that's the first step. Then there's like seven different types of moments and you've got to figure out like what you got to do in those different types of moments to show up correctly.
00:57:11
Speaker
But the first step is always just like, am I even in a moment? And that's where most people fail. Did i understand you correctly earlier, and forgive me but for not recalling exactly how you put it, but did I understand you sort of saying that there's a like a German philosopher or somebody who said something like, we...
00:57:39
Speaker
shaved the top of the mountains and filled in the valleys or something along those lines. And, you know, and I thought of that when you were saying something to the effect of, you know, we just don't have those moments anymore in the, you know, your former colleagues or employees were saying that. And I was maybe making some assumptions as you were talking about this, but it,
00:58:03
Speaker
sounded to me like whether it was in that situation with the new ownership or if it's generally in other companies, it kind of sounded to me like you were saying, we miss the opportunity to have to to deliver upon one of these moments. And sometimes the reason is because we have
00:58:25
Speaker
instituted our, you know, we have our own behaviors that we have, you know, fallen into habits or whatever, or we've instituted processes to negate lows, you know, to get rid of the, to to mitigate all of the bad things. But what we've also lost in creating a lot of process or these kind of muted responses to things is we've gotten in the way of delivering upon the opportunity to show up in these moments.
00:58:57
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, and I'm sure there was intentional things that went away when the new organization, you know, took over things completely. And that's to be expected. And that's not a criticism of them. And you they have their own way of doing things.
00:59:10
Speaker
um And there's probably employees in the organization that thinks they're the best place that they're ever going to work. I mean, it's just, you know, so it's, um, it's just that I, you, the bigger you get and the more you're doing and the more responsibilities you have and the more people you're managing, the more intentional you have to be to make sure that those big moments that you show for them and And I just want to keep reiterating, like, you're going to screw up a thousand moments.
00:59:41
Speaker
You're going to screw up things all the time as a human being or as a leader or whatever. But don't let it be the big ones. The most the the the more you can do to get those right, the mass forgiveness you get about all your other screw-ups and things you didn't do right.
01:00:00
Speaker
But if you miss the big stuff, nobody cares how many little things you did good. Nobody cares. I mean, look at look at Boeing.
01:00:11
Speaker
Boeing had millions of flights that landed correctly with no problems, great safety records. And then the 737 MAX had problems and they did not deal with it very well. We had two crashes and suddenly i won't get on the 737 MAX. Like I do not trust them. I wouldn't for like a year and a half. i would If I saw that was my plane, I changed my flight.
01:00:34
Speaker
I would not get on one of those. they had two two crashes. They did everything correctly. All those flights, millions of... cret and i But two planes go down? They got those two big moments wrong, and we saw that they did not handle the problems with that plane the way they should have.
01:00:54
Speaker
And they've gotten that rectified. I will now get on the 737 MAX. But there was a period of time when, like, all of those little good deeds did not matter. right? Because they they screwed up the... Maybe they had nothing to do. It was a terrible mistake that the planes went down. But ah how they reacted, everything they did after that showed that they really did didn't... They couldn't be trusted in that time period. And so that we see that and inside the organizations all the time.
01:01:23
Speaker
When something big happens in the... You ever seen that meme where Homer Simpson like disappears into the bush? like That's how employees say their leaders act when something big happens.
01:01:34
Speaker
And that's not what they need. There are a thousand ways to break something. There are very few ways to do it right or to put things together, you know, however we want to phrase it.
01:01:46
Speaker
And, you know, thankfully, if I have a conversation with my child or my spouse or an interaction with a colleague, while I can, in the terminology I was just using, I can do something wrong or break something.
01:02:02
Speaker
And yet I can turn around pretty quickly and say, i can recover. You know, in in some respects, I could say, I'm sorry, or i made a mistake or whatever. Thankfully, we can do that.
01:02:13
Speaker
But I think some of what I'm assuming comes out in the book is also, hey, you know, you're going to screw things up. But the next moment maybe is how do you respond to screwing it up or things not going right?
01:02:30
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But, you know, we have to like deal with our mistakes and deal with our transgressions and all that stuff. But, i you know, i just the the grace that you get from people when you have shown up for them in a big way, you know?
01:02:52
Speaker
And we never took advantage of this. It was never like, it wasn't calculated, but, you know, we used to send big, giant, ridiculous flowers, you know, when someone had someone in their like very close life, their life passed away and they had to go to a funeral. And then it was a little subjective how we tried to figure that out. It wasn't like,
01:03:11
Speaker
you know we for let that to each leader to kind of figure out, was it someone really important in their lives or, you know, are or just their old friend from high school or something, right? But if they felt like it was someone like really, there's a really an intense moment for that employee.
01:03:24
Speaker
It would send a giant, like the thing on the easel, like the giant flowers, like from the company and, you know, like it's specifically from their team. And they remembered that, right?
01:03:36
Speaker
Like the fact they they they spent the entire day asking answering questions about their job to all of their friends and family. The funeral was like, who was that from? Who was that giant? And it was, oh, that's from our company. Oh my, I can't believe they did that. And so like the day sort of became about something, ah even though we weren't trying to like take away from that, but like that employee was having a slightly positive experience little experience inside of a very negative one.
01:04:05
Speaker
and it was like, but us just trying to show up for them and, and to tell them we care about them and we support them. And dude, I had so many people write the most incredible thank you notes for us doing that.
01:04:16
Speaker
And we were just trying to do it to like, really, we, you know, that was a big moment for them and wanted to show up for them. Hands down. That's it. There's no other, nothing else tied to that.
01:04:28
Speaker
But I can tell you the outcomes of that were how much they cared about us doing that, how appreciative they were. And I know that when someone called them up and said, hey, I got 25 more cents an hour for you over here for the competitor down the street, that gave us a level of insulation. We didn't do it for that reason. But I know as an outcome that that that happened.
01:04:50
Speaker
right because people knew what who we were and what we cared about, what we who what we were going to do. They were going to take the risk that someone else, even if they were going to pay them a little bit more, was going to do that kind of thing for them too, you know, in the next company.
01:05:04
Speaker
And so... Again, that's why you got to show up and you got to make sure people know about it. um if If you want them to know how to act and what you're going to do. Because hopefully everyone else on the team is never going to have to have that experience. Hopefully none of them have a really important person die in their life like while they're working for us.
01:05:24
Speaker
Statistically possible. But hopefully that never happens, but they know how we would react if it did.
01:05:33
Speaker
because what we did for the other employee on their team. So it's just, you there's so many ways to do this stuff. There's so many ways to like, think about showing up in an authentic way that's true to you or true to your company or whatever. But you just gotta, you gotta recognize that and figure out what you gotta do.
01:05:51
Speaker
The book will come out around the time the this episode releases. I forget the exact schedule, but whether it's the book or it's you, Chris, or or somewhere else, where should I go to learn more, connect by the book or whatever else? And if you were going to leave me with words of wisdom or something to think about after today, whether we've talked about it already or not, what would that thing be?
01:06:19
Speaker
or if you're interested in connecting, I'm happy to connect with anybody um on all of the social media platforms. um So if you hang out somewhere, I'm there. You can also go to my website, chrisdyre.com slash moments if you want to learn more about the book, ah the new book.
01:06:37
Speaker
um You can also find all my social stuff there. And um yeah, as far as like what what to leave you with,
01:06:48
Speaker
One of the things that I really had to learn that we did not get to that I think helps in everything that we've talked about today is what you focus on grows.
01:07:05
Speaker
So if you focus on what are my best employees doing, if you focus on what are my best clients care about, if you focus on why do my best salespeople do so well, if that's what your focus is, and well how do we meet better and how do we create great, you know, what are my best leaders doing?
01:07:22
Speaker
If that's what you are focused on, you're going to get more of those behaviors, more of those kinds of people. Because, again, you're sending that signal that you what you care about. If you walk around looking for problems, focused on the people who aren't performing, focused on why these two salespeople can't meet their number, and now you're like all over them, and you're putting them on a pip, and you're in all their calls, and you're getting CC'd on their emails, and you're you're just going to get more of that crap.
01:07:54
Speaker
And when we when we really put our attention on excellence, which is why I told you I want you to make this the best organization that you know people ever going to work. When you put your focus on excellence, people rise up.
01:08:09
Speaker
that sort the the The level of mediocre, it rises up a bit, right? And the people who can't keep up, it's either very clear that they cannot keep up and you know what you need to do,
01:08:24
Speaker
Or what happens more often is they self-select out. They go find another job. They quit. They leave because they're like, there is no way I'm ever going to make it in this company. If this is the level of excellence, if that's what you're going to do, i better go find another job where I can just kick it and make it easy over there.
01:08:41
Speaker
And so almost never had to fire the underperforming salesperson. like They would come to me and be like, I just i i can't do this. Because because i'm we're like ignoring them. like We're good.
01:08:53
Speaker
We're talking about how do we get more resources? How do we help our top three top salespeople? Like, how do we? And I'm like, this one person over here, like, you can't figure it out. Well, maybe it's not the right job for you, buddy.
01:09:05
Speaker
So we started to deal with it. But like our first focus was always what's working, what's good. And how do we put our more attention, more resources, more energy, more conversation around that?
01:09:20
Speaker
Everything else just seemed to fix itself. Most of what you've said today, Chris, reminds me of a lot, which I really appreciate because that gives me the opportunity to ask you, well, what do you think about this? And, you know, what's your approach? And and that does as well. But I know that I can't keep you here all day. So there is more to learn or hear about, whether it's reading the book or or checking you out in your social media channels. So that is what I will do. And that's where I'll leave it for everyone. So Chris, I really appreciate you being here. I've enjoyed the conversation. And although I have not read the new book yet, I have read The Power of Company Culture and I enjoyed it. So thank you again for being here, Chris.
01:10:04
Speaker
Thanks so much for having me it It was really enjoyable to spend some time with you.