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Axel Burlin: Beyond Brain Rot
18 Plays15 hours ago
In this episode, Eric talks with Axel Burlin, author of Beyond Brain Rot, about internet addiction, algorithmic feeds, and why so many well-intentioned attempts to “use your phone less” quietly fail.
Axel shares his own experience growing up online, from video games and forums to endless scrolling, and how a breaking point during college led him to rethink not just his habits but the assumptions behind them. Rather than relying on willpower, blockers, or dopamine detoxes, Axel outlines a mindset-level shift that reframes algorithmic feeds as something fundamentally misaligned with how we want to live.
The conversation explores how modern platforms quietly replace boredom, reflection, and community with hyper-stimulating content that feels productive in the moment and hollow afterward. Eric and Axel also discuss responsibility versus system-level blame, how brain rot differs from ordinary distraction, and what it looks like to keep the useful parts of the internet while removing the rest.
They cover:
- What “brain rot” actually refers to, both the content and the outcome
- Why algorithmic feeds are different from intentional internet use
- How gaming, social media, and short-form video hook attention differently
- Why most screen-time fixes fail after a few days
- The hidden opportunity cost of scrolling
- How feeds contribute to loneliness and the erosion of community
- Practical ways to remove algorithmic entertainment without going offline
- What a healthier relationship with technology looks like day to day
This episode is a grounded conversation for anyone who senses they’re spending too much time online but hasn’t found an approach that actually sticks.
Episode Links
- Axel Burlin: https://www.beyondbrainrot.com
- Follow Axel on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/axel.burlin/
- Beyond Brain Rot (Axel’s book): https://www.beyondbrainrot.com
- The Anxious Generation (Jonathan Haidt): https://www.amazon.com/Anxious-Generation-Rewiring-Childhood-Epidemic/dp/B0C9N2L56X
- Bowling Alone (Robert D. Putnam): https://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Robert-D-Putnam-audiobook/dp/B01N94FW0P
- Alienated America (Timothy P. Carney): https://www.amazon.com/Alienated-America-audiobook/dp/B07MDLH6WB
For more episodes: https://unfoldingthought.com
Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Axel's Journey
00:00:03
Speaker
Axel, thank you for joining me. Where does today's recording find you? ah Thank you so much for having me. I'm ah in New York City right now, just in my apartment. I'm really interested in hearing about you so that I can understand what led up to you writing your book, which of course I have
Internet Addiction and Its Effects
00:00:22
Speaker
here. We talked about that. So beyond brain rot and you talking about internet addiction and all that. So tell me about yourself, Axel.
00:00:30
Speaker
So just growing up, I was born around 2000 and just coming of age when the Internet was taken off the smartphone. I feel like my generation is really one of the first ones I grew up with all these technologies and social medias right in our starting in our formative years.
00:00:49
Speaker
And like many, I got very kind of addicted to my phones, to the internet, social media. Video gaming was huge for me. I was kind of in a gamer clique in high school, so I would just play like hours every single day to the point where...
00:01:04
Speaker
You know, i didn't really have that many hobbies outside of what I had to do in schoolwork, ah any sports I played. But outside of that, my life was pretty much just chronically online. And I think that's a pretty common experience.
Impact of COVID on Internet Use
00:01:18
Speaker
But I really started becoming mindful of it later in college, especially during during COVID. When um ah it was just, I mean, everyone experienced it. Your entire life was basically online. You just get out of bed, go to your screen, do your work whatever, just socialize on the screen, et cetera. And then it started just getting a little bit like a breaking point. And I talk about in my book,
00:01:42
Speaker
um going in the shower one night and being like, wow, I just wasted my entire day ah like scrolling mindlessly. like Is this what life is really about? Is this how I want to live going forward? And basically became determined to try to reform my my online habits because it was sucking up every free moment of my time in my life and it wasn't existentially fulfilling.
00:02:07
Speaker
So I tried you know, I just kind of went through all the common methods of trying to reform my screen time. So I would, would buy it like, buy one of those boxes like a phone box where you put it in and lock it for a period of time and it's kind of rudimentary stuff like that and then downloading various software app blockers and just reading countless books on on the topic watching that uh those netflix movies about how bad social media is that type of thing and just getting getting really into the topic
00:02:42
Speaker
um But finding that nothing was working, i would always kind of relapse into my my prior habits and just start binging once again. And then I um finally kind of pieced together a a sort of theory slash method that quite different from any other ones on the on on the on the market, but based more like a kind of a word-based psychological framework very that that actually freed me, allowed me to kind of define what the problem was in my life and then how to get rid of the problem. And so that worked worked for me and it was really...
00:03:22
Speaker
quite miraculous, I thought. So I wanted to, at that point, it was, I just decided I should share it with the world for anyone else that it would help.
The Subtle Impact of Internet Addiction
00:03:30
Speaker
What did your life look like? You know, when you say something like, and I do recall this in the book, you know, you got in the shower and you're you're thinking about this,
00:03:41
Speaker
it Was it day after day of things like with other addictions where you would put aside, i don't know, actually interacting, quote unquote, with your friends or your family, you would put aside, I don't know, eating or leaving the house. What what did your life look like as a result of this addiction, if I can put it that way?
00:04:03
Speaker
Yeah, so i won't I wouldn't go as far as saying comparing it to like a drug addiction or something of that level, which is really like a chemical dependency that can completely ruin your life and mess up all your obligations and stuff like that. But I think internet addiction can be kind of nefarious in the fact that you can you do your bare minimum obligations like you...
00:04:24
Speaker
yeah You can get good grades in school and do your assigned homework and do basically what's expected of you. But the time for yourself, where like your free time, when you can kind of strategize your next move, try to get ahead or be productive or be creative or we really just have hobbies and time to be human, that's really what gets replaced by this very low-value kind of brain rot activity.
00:04:51
Speaker
which is um which is why I can kind of suck up so much valuable time of your life without you really realizing it and without without the alarm bells going off that that are saying this is not how you should be spending your time. like this yeah Do you see you see what I'm saying? Where it's kind of like a slow little paper cut effect versus having like a real kind of drug OD type severe situation.
Addictive Nature of Video Games
00:05:16
Speaker
When you look back, Do you see sort of turning points in your life? Like, oh, I can see that I started down this road when I got a smartphone or when I started playing Quake or i don't know what you were doing.
00:05:36
Speaker
Do you see something happening in your journey that kicks you off down this path? Yeah, I mean, I think video games ah can be incredibly addictive. don't know if you're a gamer or ex-gamer at any point, but I remember like sixth grade, I went to, joined a new school and it kind of fell in with the gamer crowd, which, which,
00:06:00
Speaker
um a lot of fun i mean it's a it was a fun crowd and but we ended up just gameing started gaming a lot and like playing ton of video games together where it's sort of like a sort of social but you're also just playing on your own screen at the end of the day and you're not you don't really care what the other what your people people are saying it's it's uh more of a and gaming and then gaming can get really addictive especially when you're when you're younger i think and you have a little bit less A little less perspective on saying, oh, like my, my guild, my fantasy guild is not the most important thing in the world or like my ranking in the leaderboards is not that, uh, that important ultimately. And it's just the way those are designed. And then the,
00:06:43
Speaker
And then video games kind of associate with like a ton of forums that are related to them. And so you get into the kind of forum lifestyle, comments and all that. You just get really
Behavioral Addiction and COVID Awareness
00:06:54
Speaker
into that and YouTube. And so it's really like, a ah for me, I'd say my digital gateway drug was gaming. But I also think it's very likely that I would get into you know I think it's a very widespread problem where people that are just on social media a lot will get kind of drawn in as well because it's very habit-forming.
00:07:16
Speaker
I would consider, like du going back to what you said earlier, but I would definitely consider a kind of a behavioral addiction and there's you know, there's definitely some debate in the psychological community of what gets included as like a psychological disorder in their manuals and stuff. But it's been kind of on the cusp of the internet and internet gaming disorder has been on the very like kind of edge of psychology. But I think it's very habit forming. And yeah, that's kind of a long winded reply your question. I forget if it was before we started recording or maybe at the beginning, you know, you were dealing with this during COVID as well. And so were there changes or increasing intensity that you lived through at different points in your life?
00:08:00
Speaker
covet obviously was a kind of a breaking point because you have no there was nothing like no friends hang out with no interruption it was just kind of a non-stop digital experience and i think a lot of people felt the same way there's a lot of content around screen addiction addiction came around covet period like some of those documentaries and and books that came out post 2020 when people really, I thought the kind of tone shifted around then of, oh, maybe this isn't all just fun and games. It's like this can have kind of nefarious consequences.
00:08:37
Speaker
Do you recognize when you look back that there are missed opportunities or you know, relationships that were lost or something of that nature as a result of, you know, internet addiction, I guess.
00:08:56
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's really just an opportunity cost question. i think that there's huge opportunity costs. I think my life would be a lot better now today had i been grinding since that back then or if you have to put it bluntly but um just yeah i mean i'm sure i would have read could have read ah ah thousand more books or something like that and gotten lot smarter understand tons of topics i could have learned new language and
00:09:26
Speaker
gotten and really good at drawing or painting or just a lot of or built you know different relationships just the whole trajectory of your life really over time I mean it's like that cliche of like excellence is a habit and you are what you do every day that it really compounds and adds up so if you have you know if you're If you're scrolling for like four hours per day, which is a very is actually relatively tame versus some of people's screen times I've seen, that that will just compound it. where like that That amount of time, is it's incredible what you can do with that time. And to do that every single day will have a compounding effect.
00:10:05
Speaker
So I think it's just, there's a lot of opportunity and potential and changing your habits now to be a little more optimistic about it um because your future, your future self will thank you.
Personal Experiences and Parenting Dilemmas
00:10:16
Speaker
When I think of something like smartphone addiction or internet addiction, One of the immediate visuals that pops to mind is like a parent not paying attention to their child. And part of that is probably because of ah some of our age difference here, but also because I'm a parent.
00:10:36
Speaker
And, you know, around 2010, for example, I was, i had at one point one of the top 10 most followed accounts on Twitter in its early days, for example.
00:10:49
Speaker
And I had a decently popular blog on digital marketing. And, you know, I can remember specific experiences of just feeling like it was really important.
00:11:03
Speaker
that I'm doing this thing on my phone or that I'm keeping up to date on people are checking things. You know, I think I was, i really don't know, but if you know much of the history of Reddit, you know, one of the things that's one of the stories that's told about Reddit is that they created, i think hundreds of fake accounts and then would generate activity from those accounts in about the first year or so to make it look like it was a really active place.
00:11:33
Speaker
And when I think back to the time when I came upon Reddit and was really heavily using it, it's right about that same time. And I think I must've been one of the few real people on that service.
00:11:52
Speaker
And And then you think like, wow, what did I get out of that? Or what's the opportunity cost? And so coming back to the visual, you know, the the the thing that immediately comes to mind is like,
00:12:09
Speaker
Did I miss an opportunity to show my child that I loved them, you know, or that to be present. And there are plenty of things that we could have done better in this or that in life, you know, so I don't beat myself up over it. But as you're talking, right that's the sort of thing that I think about is like, yep, I've been there.
00:12:32
Speaker
I mean, you can kind of blame yourself for it or you can shift some of the blame to the platforms and say, wow, Reddit was really hooking me with their They're fake accounts. As you started to ask yourself these questions and realize there's more to life maybe than what you were experiencing, did you...
00:12:51
Speaker
place the blame on yourself? Did you say, nobody's going to solve this but me? what were What were some of those thought processes or even the sense of responsibility that you felt at the time and maybe even how you feel now?
Quitting Methods and Individual Responsibility
00:13:08
Speaker
For me personally, I was very much blaming myself for the wasted time because it's really it's just like a, you know, it's like a screen. I should be able to get myself, peel myself off the screen. So I definitely saw it as an individual problem. and that's why I saw that's why I saw all of these sort of individual level solutions and um apps and and and different ways of quitting dopamine detoxes on your own. And um another point is when you blame the system, I mean, I'm sure there's some people out there that love their
00:13:39
Speaker
that love spending three hours a day on TikTok and scrolling. And maybe that's what they, they want that ah in their life. And and it's at that point, more power to them, like if they desire that, but a lot of people don't want that, but they feel hooked. Like they feel like ah addicted to it, which is how I felt like I didn't want to spend my time that way, but that's how it ended up happening.
00:14:01
Speaker
So I guess the real, the sustainable solution is almost an individual level thing where if you, some, some sort of solution that way, and I'm happy to get into my actual method and stuff like that.
00:14:13
Speaker
You talk about this a bit in your book, of and we've referenced some of these things, at least sort of a name or, or categorization, you tried a number of quitting methods or methods to limit your use of the internet, social media, whatever. So I'm curious if you want to go any further into things that you tried, you know, like locking away your smartphone and apps and all that. I'm curious about some of those things and where they succeed or fail or
00:14:49
Speaker
whatever else, but then also what that taught you about what worked for you and what you advocate in your book. Yeah. So I'd say one of the main issues with a lot of these quitting methods is just a kind of failure to define the problem, like a vague, like a vague feeling that screens are bad. These social media platforms are bad, so we have to to try to avoid them. But yeah,
00:15:14
Speaker
Problem is if you kind of put a barrier to yourself, let's say you block yourself from YouTube and, you know, lock yourself out of there. There's going to come a time, maybe in a couple of days where you need to ah figure out how to change your tire and,
00:15:29
Speaker
the YouTube video would really show you like how it will demonstrate how to do it or some other thing that you'll want to watch on YouTube. And then you're going to end up going on there and removing the blocker, which happened to me a lot where you there's kind of these certain edge cases where you want to see something and Also, just the fact that, you know, all these methods, you start out really strong, like you can do a doping detox for like one or two days through sheer force of will.
00:15:58
Speaker
But then in a few days, you're going to feel like maybe you have to have like a lazy day or you have a hard day at work and you're like, I deserve to treat myself. And then you binge on your platform of choice.
00:16:10
Speaker
And it's just not a sustainable solution that I've found. And so I kind of tried to adjust those premises with my my theory, which I'm happy to jump into. But ah what is your approach or what's your theory?
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah, so the first part of the book is really about defining the problem, which I specifically call algorithmic entertainment because it applies flies broadly to a lot of different platforms. It could be your social media feed, the explore page, reels, TikTok, YouTube recommended list, or just Really, LinkedIn homepage is basically an an algorithm that's presenting you entertainment that you didn't search for yourself. You didn't ask for it and you don't have a practical purpose in doing it. So you're basically outsourcing your like your locus of control is going from internal search base to an algorithm showing you stuff and you're just consuming it. Reacting.
00:17:11
Speaker
Yeah, so that's kind of my broad moral approach of what the problem is. And then you just define what you list out all the problematic platforms that are entrapping you. And I mean, that that's also not getting into the whole incentive structure of the the algorithms is against. It's one of the few technologies that's against your own wishes as of the consumer, because it basically wants your engagement in time for ad revenue.
00:17:34
Speaker
versus to achieve your goals. Like if you ah go on Amazon to buy a product or something like that, it's sort of aligned with your wishes. But it's a digression. That's ah ah the first part of the book gets into lot of that stuff.
00:17:48
Speaker
um And then the second part is... quitting this, quitting this stuff or cutting it out of your life that sucks up so much time. And that's where you have a approach different approach and methods. Once you have the defined, the problem that you want to cut out of your life, then you can choose which method you take. And i basically turn it on its head and say, why would i why would I want to use the algorithmic entertainment in the first place? Like, what am i stopping myself from?
00:18:19
Speaker
doing and that's sort of what i could you know like the willpower method of quitting a habit is i need to stop myself from this desirable treat that's through force of will right but if you examine what it is that you're stopping yourself from and say is it really a treat like what what am i resisting here and that's what i did for these algorithmic platforms where i through just sort of introspection i kind of thought of you know pleasure i think it's more pleasurable my life is more fun because of it um social value like i think i would get some clout on social media or get in with the trends uh boredom just like if i feel i think it would cure boredom and make things more interesting and then knowledge where i
00:19:12
Speaker
think that the algorithms give me information and insights that make my life better.
Immediate Gratification vs. Future Goals
00:19:19
Speaker
And, but if you kind of debunk the reason, these, these sort of carrots in your mind that are drawing you into using them again, then you don't, no longer need to stop yourself from doing it because you see that it's a pointless activity that you don't crave.
00:19:36
Speaker
If I'm hearing you correctly, it's sort of like, you know, that, that piece of cake or whatever it is, you know, we're recording around the holidays, right? So that, that cookie, that whatever it is that you could have, those holiday treats do taste really good.
00:19:55
Speaker
Right. And Axel, you could eat sugar all day long today, but if you, you know, give into it, if I can, say that without thinking about what do I really want in the long term, you know, then it's hard to find a balance where you can say, you know what, do I have to cut out all alcohol for my life? Do I have to cut out all sugar? Do I have to cut out all forms of entertainment or fun or whatever?
00:20:28
Speaker
Maybe not if I keep clear in my head what I really value or where I really want to go. And so, you know, it's not like if we go with the food thing, it's not like you have to stop eating those holiday treats and just hit the gym eight hours a day every day because you're going to lose something in your life doing that too, um unless that's all that you value.
00:20:57
Speaker
But if you know that you value something like living a long life and looking in the mirror and feeling like you're decently in shape or whatever it is, then you can have some of that sugar today.
00:21:14
Speaker
and tomorrow and whatever else without, you know, just giving in completely. And I realize they're not the same, but I think that's some of what I hear you saying is rather than holding yourself back, understand where it fits in and why you are on Facebook or on YouTube or whatever else.
00:21:37
Speaker
Yeah, and i I would also say oh kind of my point is even just the short term value that you think you might derive that you're from the feeds is not what it's made out to be. It's almost like you're psychologically think, oh, I have a free moment at work. Let me go check the feeds.
00:21:57
Speaker
And why instinctually, why, you why do you do that? It's because i think you think you see value in doing that. You think you're going to gain value. Maybe that's information that you think you're going to get, you know, in valuable knowledge from it or.
00:22:14
Speaker
um that it'll be pleasurable. And then if you, but if you really consider, is that, that behavior pleasurable or does kind of stress you out? and Right. It keeps you occupied rather than, you know, teaching you something really actually entertaining you.
Algorithmic Influence and Brain Rot
00:22:32
Speaker
Your book is titled Beyond Brain Rot. And I was curious if you use the term brain rot because you see this as a ah something you can identify that is separate from some other terms that we have used if it's an outcome that is different from what you might experience if you weren't using the internet or social media or whatever and then
00:23:05
Speaker
whatever the definition is of brain rot, do you see that as being different from plain old distraction? Yeah, so in the book, I mostly use brain rot as ah term for the content itself. So if you think of something like skibbity toilet, people call that brain rot. It's like, you know, that that I don't know if you're familiar with that meme, but and and I don't need to go in detail, but it's like the guy the guy in the toilet bowl and the animation.
00:23:32
Speaker
He's that example lot. But I mean, there's a ton like the Italian brain rot content um and I use it. In that sense, there's also the the separate sense of what it does to you mentally, like the mental degradation in the sense of brain rot, which is just a nice ah kind of nuance to the term. But and i use it as sort of the content itself.
00:23:55
Speaker
But to define the content itself, I would just call it Most simply the stuff you regret consuming afterwards, but you can't look away in the moment. So something that can kind of trigger primal parts of your brain or it's like a, you know, maybe it's um some startling weird content or so sexual content or just some of the, or violence or a drop talk show gossip that you don't want to watch, but you would find mesmerizing.
00:24:32
Speaker
And that's, it's incredibly good that type of versus stuff that you feel uplifted about and the type of content that you enjoy, like a real piece of art.
00:24:45
Speaker
So it is kind of an internal classification of what you feel grateful for having consumed versus almost consumed against your will because it's so stimulating. if somebody just says brain rot, then...
00:25:02
Speaker
the first thing that I think about is the outcome. And I feel like what you mean is both, but yeah a lot of what you described is, you know, you you're, you're kind of bundling them together and saying, this is what contributes to that outcome.
00:25:18
Speaker
And we've talked about algorithmic feeds and all that. And we we will probably get into some of that because I'm really curious about
00:25:26
Speaker
you know, some of your specific solutions, but am i hearing you or thinking correctly that When I think of the outcome that, you Axel, you have brain rot or I have brain rot or someone's experiencing brain rot that and it's fair for me to think of that outcome. And then we may say you get there because of the algorithmic feeds or or content or whatever.
00:25:55
Speaker
So I think if you were to consume brain rot content all day, you will experience brain rot yourself. So if you assume this hyper stimulating,
00:26:06
Speaker
stuff you regret watching afterwards you're not going to be uplifted or enlightened like if theoretically and this is how it all ties to algorithms but theoretically if what the algorithms showed you was you know a lecture by einstein or some touching poem and that was its kind of highest use was to kind of have this uplifting stuff that you really enjoyed then you might not experience brain rot but ah the way that they're set up their incentive structure is to keep you watching and hook you within the next ah you can kind of instinctually feel when a you know piece of this short form content will it's basically hooking your baser instincts and it's like a race down your brainstem because the most
00:26:54
Speaker
you know, the most biologically or psychologically attention-grabbing content is that kind of primal appeal that is lower than your know your prefrontal cortex, which is more, so you're not you're not getting stimulated by math equations on your feed, for example. You see what I'm saying? Where it necessitates this sort of downward pull because of it's a competition of what's the most attention-grabbing. So in the end, the brain rot emerges as, and that's when it gets really crazy is the brain rot production getting more and more effective with these, you know, AIs can spew out this AI slop stuff that is like really mesmerizing and weird and creepy, but you can't stop watching it.
00:27:43
Speaker
And it'll just keep going that way or or it'll just keep going that way until this kind of extreme brain rot is like just dominating our lives. And then we will experience the outcome of brain rot.
00:27:54
Speaker
Do you think that with, I believe, generally rising diagnoses of things like ADD, ADHD, probably plenty of related things,
00:28:08
Speaker
Do you think that, like, what do you see as the interplay between some of those things where maybe, i don't know, but I'm going to guess that, you know, somebody with, you know, hyperactivity, impulse, you know, control disorders or whatever, that they would fall victim at a higher rate?
Mental Health and Demographic Impacts
00:28:32
Speaker
to, you know, brain rot sort of content. Whether you agree with me or not, I'm wondering about the interplay. And or if you see some sort of contribution, like maybe Axel, you, I'm not meaning you specifically, you individual person listening to this,
00:28:52
Speaker
Maybe you have only the my most minor impulse control issues, but we have rising diagnoses of some of these in part because the algorithmic feeds create that, you know, they form that habit. They just make it worse. Whereas 40 years ago, that person that had only the most minor impulse control issues never would have had a problem, maybe.
00:29:20
Speaker
Yeah, obviously I'm not a psychologist or anything like that, but just looking at the in you just look at the incidence rates of these mental illnesses for the youth, I mean, just skyrocketing.
00:29:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I know there's a lot of arguments about what whether that's just a reporting thing, like do are do people more likely to go to the therapist and get a diagnosis? But if you look at something like a suicide attempt or suicide itself, that's not just something that gets diagnosed. That's that's a real action that happens.
00:29:57
Speaker
And that's skyrocketing too. So there's really, it seems like a mental health issue crisis that is happening in the past 20 years and there's haven't seen a compelling argument of what else could be responsible for that spike with weather and and it just makes and it feel it makes intuitive sense that something like ADHD could be exacerbated by these fees that are switching from five second, just completely contextless, five second hyper stimulating clips where you're just your your tension is being um yanked around. It can't be healthy, especially for young people.
00:30:35
Speaker
Do you think that the issue is greater? with certain segments of the population. You know, I don't mean necessarily to focus on the United States, but if that's simple enough, you know, in the United States, that the issue is greater for men versus women, or it's maybe it's not greater. It's just different.
00:30:59
Speaker
The experience is different. The outcome is different, that it's different between high income and low income, city and rural. black, white, whatever it is, do you see the experience and the outcomes as being greater or lesser or different between different groups?
00:31:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's a good question. I think on the the gender split, I think the sort of I mean, if you read like the anxious generation or something by height, he notices that men are more interested in the video gaming aspect and more likely to be video game addicts ah and women more affected by his social media, which is an interesting hypothesis. I don't know how true it is, but just like that's the, what um one example of ways it could, but I think
00:31:52
Speaker
I think it's unique in that it really affects everyone, like um high income, low income, anyone that has access to a phone with a, with a where you know, it can be affected by it. I don't really...
00:32:08
Speaker
think that it is probably that big of a of a asymmetric impact i will say there's probably if your parents are better at uh keeping you from these at an early age maybe they're more educated on to not let their ah kid have an ipad at age two or something like that or um, or, well, maybe not just iPad specifically access to TikTok on their iPad H2 or something. Um, that's going to maybe cause some asymmetries there, but yeah. What do you, what do you think?
00:32:42
Speaker
I, I think that you identified some of it that, you know, there's, a difference in the experience but also the outcomes or different groups and of course there's when you look at sort of a venn diagram overlap or if you look at a bell curve distribution you know there are things like the average man is X height and the average woman is Y height.
00:33:14
Speaker
And then somebody goes, well, I know a lot of women that are taller than the average man. So that can't be true. It's like, well, there's a lot of overlap. If you put those two bell curves, you know, one on top of the other,
00:33:26
Speaker
they they What you're looking at is where is the peak of the bell curve and you know how how far apart are those two peaks? And then also you go out to the outside of you know the far ends of the bell curve.
00:33:42
Speaker
And that's where you see, you know, you can go, you know, two standard deviations, three standard deviations, whatever it is out. And all of a sudden you're like, wow, for every hundred men that are this height all the way out there at the top, there are only two women or whatever the number is. And so there's a lot of overlap, but You can measure to some extent these things and find that on average, as a group, men are going to be drawn to things like, I think you sort of referenced it only offhand, but you know, adult content, pornography, whatever else, because on average men are more visual and drawn to novelty
00:34:30
Speaker
then you're probably going to find that whether it's pornography or videos of car crashes or who knows what, that men are going to be drawn into kind of the extremes of those things. Whereas on average, women are going to be drawn into the extremes of you know, group dynamics, let's say, you cyberbullying type stuff and things about appearance, for example. That's not to say that there aren't men who don't get into cyberbullying or I don't know what, but on average, I think the experience is different.
00:35:11
Speaker
And if you or I were a doctor or we're dealing with our children or something of that nature, You have to really get down to what's the specifics. What are the specifics of that person's situation?
00:35:24
Speaker
But all things being equal, I think that then I can start to, because I know, i believe that there are these differences like that, then I can start to make assumptions about, testable assumptions too, that about what the experience and the outcome might be like for different groups. So as you were talking, one thing that came to mind is There's a book called Alienated America. I think it's by Timothy P. Carney.
00:35:55
Speaker
And I have it on the bookshelf behind me here somewhere. And broadly, what he talks about in the book is that
00:36:06
Speaker
Poverty in America is much more associated with poverty of community than we tend to recognize.
00:36:17
Speaker
And so like if you think of the sort of stereotype, Rust Belt, Midwest, whatever it is, town where there used to be manufacturing or something of that nature, and the manufacturing left 50 years ago or 20 years ago or whatever, there's very often what you find is it's not just that there are a lot of people who you know barely scrape by, but also that when you look at the people who are financially well-to-do in those communities versus the people who aren't, the people who are doing better financially almost always have a community.
00:36:57
Speaker
whether they go to church or they have a strong friend group or they've had family that have has lived there for you know whatever, they have people that they can rely upon and that help them feel anchored.
00:37:11
Speaker
Whereas people at the lower end of the income spectrum of any age or skin color or, you know, political leaning or whatever, almost always they don't have ah like that church community or whatever it is.
00:37:26
Speaker
They don't have a lot of friends. And so what might the experience be like? And then what might the outcomes be like for some of these different groups? I can start to make assumptions. And my assumption would be somewhat related to i think what you were speculating on briefly that it's harder to be drawn into you know a tiktok feed or instagram you know doom scrolling instagram reels or whatever if i have people have a community where there are sort of standards and that that's not quite as welcomed.
00:38:09
Speaker
And they're i'm I also have other opportunities like, hey, we are going to go and do something together. And if I'm right about this, then I start to think about what might our country be like in 2030 or 2040 or And things do change. The world is very complex and dynamic and there are all these black swans and whatever else.
00:38:36
Speaker
But if I had to say what the trajectory would be of certain groups or certain things, I would say that it's probably a lot harder for people who are low income, for people who don't have communities, for men.
00:38:52
Speaker
To build the positive things in life, like a relationship that will lead to, you know, children or marriage or whatever, you know, the the the things that we see as being long-term net positives, I think is probably a lot harder.
00:39:11
Speaker
And then you have a rich get richer and poor get poorer sort of scenario. Yeah, just what I would add to that is I think the the fees and algorithms and internet in general can kind of lead to an atomized existence where it'll break down the communities we used to go to after work
Community Decline Due to Digital Engagement
00:39:30
Speaker
for fun. i don't know if you've heard of Bowling Alone, that oh yeah book or movie where...
00:39:36
Speaker
you know, the phenomenon of your, your bowling league. And that used to be the common go-to activity and, or like the Rotary Club or any of these kinds of community-based, even church attendance or religious communities, stuff like that has also been marching down and recent years. So that's a little bit of depressing fact that as you mentioned, like the communities are really important for getting you out. And, um, but overall it's, it's, uh, the community organizations are not looking that good at it right now. And I think part of that is due to the feeds and the social media, which counterintuitively, despite connecting you with everyone really can lead to very more lonelier existence.
00:40:20
Speaker
So, I, it's a bit of a shift in the conversation here, but I really want to make sure to get to this before we're done. What does your use of the internet or, you know, smartphones or whatever look like today? We talked about gaming, you know, I'm curious, you Do you have social media apps on your phone? Do you use social media at all?
00:40:48
Speaker
Do you game online? What does now that you've gone through this, what's right for you today? Yeah, so i say i I still use the internet and my phones. I'd say I just use the the healthy parts of it in my view. So I've cut out the algorithmic entertainment. So I'll still text my friends and check my emails use google maps use uh you know really everything except for mindlessly scrolling the algorithmic feeds and i do i actually just remade my social media just to promote my book which is very ironic but i i i don't use it i don't like scroll it i just post stuff on there to try to
00:41:37
Speaker
to fish out the people that need it, uh, need the book from in there in the, the target market is the people scrolling the feed. So I kind of go on there for that purpose, but, um, and it's surprising the amount that it'll,
00:41:52
Speaker
slash your your screen time just by cutting out these algorithmic feeds, like it's hard to appreciate how much your time is really, because it's what kind of injects these sort of random side quests that you might feel yourself like rabbit holing is almost always presented by a an algorithmic recommendation. So if you can really cut that out, it'll cut your screen time down from like, you know, at least half of what it was. So I'm very happy with it And then most of all, I just feel like,
00:42:21
Speaker
the screen time I do have, I like choose to do it. So I, it's something that I want to do. So if I wanted to watch a Netflix movie, i would go and do it. Um, it's just not like I'm getting stuff. I didn't really know I wanted to see until I saw it. And then it just like so takes up your time and it'll keep happening because there's so much content out there and there's always going to be something that, that hooks you.
00:42:46
Speaker
Does this extend, at least for you, to things like using an ad blocker so that when you are reading the news online or whatever it is that you're doing, that you also see less distractions, even though they're not necessarily in a feed?
00:43:04
Speaker
they could pull your attention away from what your focus is at the time? Yeah, I mean, I i haven't i don't use any ad blockers. I haven't really had as much of a problem with the just like out old school advertisements, I guess.
00:43:20
Speaker
But I definitely see less of them because I'm not on the feeds and those they're like ad driven ah feeds. so um But it's a good point. I think it's definitely worth looking into. Yeah.
00:43:33
Speaker
I forget if you say this explicitly in the book, but if you don't, I believe you at least imply that you don't have social media apps on your phone.
00:43:46
Speaker
Is that right? Well, I guess you wouldn't have if you didn't have the accounts until recently, but even now it sounds like you have no need to have Instagram or whatever on your phone because Because you would be going on Instagram to say, hey, I have a clip or I'm looking for the right people to reach out to.
00:44:05
Speaker
And you could do that just as easily on your laptop as you would do on your phone. And probably easier, actually, on your laptop. Yeah, you can use the browser version of all these different apps, um which we're, maybe this is my own technical mishap, but the Instagram doesn't let you upload a Reel on the browser app, so I'll literally have to like install the app, put it my Reel, and delete the app again. so it's a little annoying, but I feel like I'm just in a sort of weird case where i trying to advertise my book on there, even though it's not really where I want to be. but
00:44:41
Speaker
When we stop recording... I'll talk you through some of that being in digital marketing, you know, for 20 plus years now and having a podcast and all that, then I can help you with some of that hopefully. But the one reason I was so curious about this is because You know, the, i was early into social media in a lot of respects. and And mean, like but not just social media, but I was using website analytics before Google analytics existed.
Social Media Usage and Privacy Concerns
00:45:17
Speaker
i taught myself having a bachelor's degree in German of all things. I taught myself to code websites, you know, basic HTML,
00:45:27
Speaker
when WordPress didn't exist. And so, you know, I was just right before a lot of the things that we use nowadays and that are very common.
00:45:40
Speaker
And so then adopting the new thing, you know, whether it was Facebook came around or whatever. mean, I... was advertising for clients of mine within probably a year of Facebook advertising being a possibility, you know, and I was working with Microsoft on some of their social media when you couldn't have a company page. Pages didn't exist on Facebook.
00:46:12
Speaker
And so you this new then this new thing of like you could take a photo and then that was social media was actually that was a lot less attractive to me the the text-based social media was the thing that I binged on more or less in its early days and so that gives you maybe a little bit of timing perspective but I got to a point where
00:46:46
Speaker
I was disillusioned with social media. I had privacy concerns much earlier than we were sort of, sort of widely talking about them much earlier than Cambridge Analytica and all that stuff.
00:46:59
Speaker
And some of those were just stupid, like who really cares to find personal data on, you know, someone like me, I'm just one of hundreds of millions, you know, billions of people.
00:47:15
Speaker
But, you know, that was on my mind. And eventually I got to a point where I realized that if I have Facebook or Twitter or whatever it is on my phone, that anytime that I'm just killing time, and I think you were sort of alluding to this when you talked about boredom, you know, I get in an elevator and the elevator ride takes 90 seconds in total, you know, or I'm waiting in line at the grocery store or, you know, I'm just walking between meetings at work.
00:47:47
Speaker
Anytime that I might otherwise you know, have to just deal with myself or be bored or whatever, I'd be pulling out Facebook or something of that nature.
00:48:01
Speaker
And then instead of spending 20 seconds just checking your email or texting your friend to say hi or whatever, you find that it's five minutes later and now you're late for the meeting.
00:48:15
Speaker
Or you're standing in that grocery line and you look up and the cashier it's like, dude, you coming through or not? you know And i so I just got to a point where I was like, it's is it that big of a deal if I still have accounts, but I just don't use them on my phone?
00:48:36
Speaker
And you, you know, you can, i think it really matters. Like what are you just through force of sheer will? Are you keeping yourself away from this thing?
00:48:50
Speaker
or is it that you're just trying to remind yourself or to ask the question of, is this that important? You know, so I can go and log into the social media site or service of choice through my browser on my phone, but that slightly higher friction causes me to, it's not worth it.
00:49:11
Speaker
And so now The only social media that I have on my phone, as long as we think of, you know, the standard sort of platforms, is if I'm traveling, I will typically install Instagram because I'll take pictures of, you know, whatever it is I'm seeing and I'll share that sort stuff. But it's only when I'm traveling.
00:49:32
Speaker
Now, I do risk that I open it up, not just to post, but I get sucked in, of course. But that's my choice. And I've gone through, you know, well over a decade of this already.
00:49:44
Speaker
And then I use with the podcast. i use social media much more than I used to, but I recognize, I think I'm just maybe be quicker to become aware of getting sucked in.
00:50:02
Speaker
So right I open up LinkedIn and I intend to look at some posts from people that I'm connected to so I can do my best to, you know, comment back or keep a relationship going or whatever, because that's the way that we stay connected is in LinkedIn.
00:50:18
Speaker
Or, you know, the sort of general situation of, I don't know about you, Axel, but my father and my mother, now that I think about it, are connected to people that they never would have remained connected to because of Facebook.
00:50:35
Speaker
And, you know, so I will intend to keep that relationship going or further my business or whatever it is. But oh yeah, all the time i can find that I really needed to just be here for three minutes and now it's 19 minutes later or something and it takes away from running the business.
00:50:57
Speaker
I'm a little bit later to dinner with my kids or whatever else. So I was really curious about what your experience is like because for me, that thing that I talk to people about is like just get it off your phone.
00:51:09
Speaker
you know You can get sucked into YouTube shorts or something, but I think if you build the habit with one thing, it becomes so much easier to just say, guess I really don't need the next thing, even if it is available on your phone. What would be really nice is if they if Instagram or Facebook had a a little toggle that said, i do not want to see algorithmic recommendations from complete strangers on just like the homepage, but they...
00:51:37
Speaker
There is no option for that. Like they will literally, because it's their business model really is to get you on their explore page, looking at this stuff. And if you look at their, their, the stat in in my book that i is actually from Meta's antitrust trial, like they it only of their, they basically revealed that only 7% of top user time spent on Instagram is actually consuming accounts they follow like content from the accounts they follow the rest is just like this the amount of time on the explore page or random stuff that you know like um in the sands it's 17 on facebook but it's it's it's crazy and the majority of time on facebook is now spent watching video which is crazy right like it's like those those video feeds is now over 50 percent
00:52:29
Speaker
If somebody has question about, am i spending too much time online? and And I'm going to put it broadly at the moment, but you might have specific recommendations depending on if the person's issue is gaming versus whatever, but just broadly,
00:52:47
Speaker
If somebody questions, should I cut back? Do I have a problem? Whatever else. Is there a small step that I could tell them they should take that it's like, hey, just try this and see if it makes your life better?
00:53:04
Speaker
For me, it's just identifying these algorithmic entertainment platforms or sites that you use or anywhere where you're passively consuming so this sort of short form content or any form content from an algorithm that you didn't.
00:53:20
Speaker
Because you can cut that stuff out and you're not cutting out anything that you're seeking yourself. It's just something the algorithm than shows you. which I kind of agree with go over in the book, but if you can just try to cut out, you know, the endless, the endless Twitter feed or, you know, the Instagram explore page, or really, i mean, as we mentioned, it's so easy to get dragged in, just getting that off your, your, your phone, trying to put you some distance between these fees and your everyday life is a, will make a huge difference.
00:53:52
Speaker
If I was to simplify it down to a statement, like all things being equal, do this. A general statement could be something like be intentional. But i think the more specific statement could be something like. It's interesting because I'm trying not to. Axel, I'll tell you this. I'm trying not to just say don't use social media.
00:54:17
Speaker
yeah i mean but because the thing is that um even social media is not like is youtube social media that can definitely waste your time like there's that's i've found i've found the common denominator denominator as like the algorithmic recommendation um Yeah.
00:54:35
Speaker
Trying to think of also another way, good way to distill the, the message. But another way of thinking is just considering in line with being intentional, considering why you use these, like what,
00:54:49
Speaker
consider what a reason you do use them. Is it because you've always sort of had these feeds around like what value has it ever given you in return for the time you spend and just examining that? Cause that's really what, how your brain rationalizes spending all this time on the, on the feeds.
00:55:08
Speaker
What does the future look like, you know near future look like for you with your book and
Book Promotion and Axel's Online Presence
00:55:15
Speaker
this topic? I think, unless I'm wrong, this is your first book. Maybe there'll be more.
00:55:20
Speaker
Are you mostly doing podcast type virtual stuff like this? Are you hoping to go speak at universities? What what does, like I said, the near future look like?
00:55:33
Speaker
Yeah, so it's my debut book. um And so it's only been out for a little over a month and now, actually. So I'm am still in marketing mode trying to get it get the word out there online. Also trying some physical stuff. I'll probably, maybe I'll make some little pop-up stand and sell books on the street or somewhere offline.
00:55:52
Speaker
My, uh... If you know those little little lending libraries with like the like free books to borrow, my mom my mom has just been putting my book in a bunch of lending libraries and gotten like 20 have been taken.
00:56:07
Speaker
a little, you know, guerrilla marketing strategies try to get the book to take off. But I appreciate you asking. I love that idea. Two questions then to round this out. where should I go to follow you learn more, you know, whether it's learning about you or the book or this topic or connect with you.
00:56:27
Speaker
And then also whether we talked about it already, or there's a topic that you want to make sure is at least stated. Do you have any final words of wisdom or things that you would recommend? I keep in mind.
00:56:41
Speaker
You can find my, me on, Well, Instagram, though that's ironic, but Axel Berlin is ah Instagram. he could i made a website called beyondbrainrot.com and you're going to start doing a newsletter at some point.
00:56:56
Speaker
um And overall, I would just recommend, I also have my book here too, checking out the book. where I kind of distill distill my argument more articulately in ah were ah book form. so And it's a lot of the themes that we just talked about.
00:57:14
Speaker
You know, I forget if we said the... you know the length i guess but people can probably tell if if they're on the video that it's a fairly short book it's about 100 pages which i don't remember if you state this anywhere but results in pretty quick read so you could read it on a standard domestic plane flight or you know in an evening or whatever so I think getting you getting your message out there really benefits from the fact that you could have certainly gone a lot deeper in referencing studies or other writers, thinkers, whatever. But I liked the fact that your book was really kind of just long enough to let me think about the topic and hear from you.
00:58:05
Speaker
but also if I'm really interested, then I'm left wanting more. So I thought it was a great book. And you know i'm I had forgotten that it was just published within about the last month or so because I think I've had my copy probably for two or three weeks. So, well, Axel, I appreciate you being here. i think you told me this was your first podcast. And once I read the book, I was really interested to talk to you. So thank you for joining me today. I appreciate it.
00:58:33
Speaker
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Thank you.