In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum speaks with Shawn Kemp, a product leader, startup advisor, and artist whose journey spans the worlds of technology, entrepreneurship, and creative expression. From his early days at Microsoft working on Xbox and Silverlight, to co-founding mission-driven companies and engaging deeply with food systems and transparency, Shawn brings a rare blend of systems thinking and emotional insight.

Shawn opens up about the impact of early trauma, the pursuit of success, and the ways he’s learned to prioritize meaning and presence over prestige. He shares his current focus on creativity—not as a career pivot, but as an honest way to process and express the messiness of life.

Topics Explored:

 * Reconciling Past and Present: How early experiences shape identity
 * Creativity as Meaning-Making: Art as a tool, not just an output
 * Food Systems and Transparency
 * Letting Go of Performative Success and Pursuing Fulfillment

Links:

 * Connect with Shawn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawnkemp/
 * Shawn’s art: https://shawnkemp.art [https://shawnkemp.art/]
 * The Non-GMO Project: https://www.nongmoproject.org [https://www.nongmoproject.org/]
 * The Glass Castle by Jeannette Walls: https://amzn.to/45XbkW8
 * Educated by Tara Westover: https://amzn.to/4e9aOqj
 * J Allard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jallard529/
 * Lakshmi Gopalkrishnan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lakshmigopalkrishnan/
 * Bext360: https://www.bext360.com/
 * Clarence Birdseye: https://amzn.to/3TsCg8O
 * No More Gold Stars: https://amzn.to/3TsNJ8k

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

Shawn Kemp: From Xbox to Facebook to Blockchain to Art to Non-GMO

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum speaks with Bob Knorpp, consultant, speaker, and longtime host of The Beancast, one of the earliest and longest-running marketing podcasts. Bob brings a sharp perspective on how podcasting, advertising, and marketing have evolved over the last two decades—and what hasn’t changed.

Bob shares his journey from agency life to running a consultancy and hosting a podcast that has endured since 2008. He explains why format and consistency matter more than chasing trends, why authenticity always beats adtech gimmicks, and why we should think differently about metrics—shifting from scale to influence, from quick wins to long-term impact.

We also explore mental models behind podcasting and marketing: why executives misunderstand podcasts as a “numbers game,” how creators can navigate between art and business, and what it really means to build an audience today.

Topics Explored:

 * Bob’s journey from agency CEO to podcast host and consultant
 * Why The Beancast has endured with minimal format changes since 2008
 * The tension between scale, influence, and long-term success in podcasting
 * Why authentic host-read ads outperform pixel-driven dynamic ads
 * The trap of executives demanding short-term ROI from long-form mediums
 * How audience commitment differs between podcasts and social media
 * Mental models: how marketers and business leaders frame (and often misframe) the value of podcasts

Links:

 * Visit Bob’s website: https://www.thebeancast.com [https://www.thebeancast.com/]
 * Connect with Bob on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/knorpp/

Bob Knorpp: What 17 Years of Podcasting Teaches You

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum is joined by Courtney McAra, founder of Mustang MarTech, to explore the art and science of marketing operations. Courtney shares her journey from a startup generalist to a highly specialized marketing ops consultant who’s helped teams at places like SurveyMonkey and Marketo bring order to chaos.

She breaks down the critical components of a functioning marketing operations infrastructure—from clean folder structures and naming conventions to lifecycle management, compliance, and campaign execution. Courtney also discusses the real-world challenges teams face when scaling their MarTech stacks and offers practical advice for avoiding common pitfalls.

Whether you’re deep in the weeds of a Marketo instance or trying to align marketing with sales and product, this episode is full of useful, actionable insights.

Topics Explored:

 * Courtney’s Journey: From lean startup teams to SurveyMonkey and Mustang MarTech
 * What Marketing Ops Really Is—and Why It Matters
 * Taming Wild Databases: Clean architecture, folder structure, and segmentation
 * Lifecycle Strategy: Lead scoring, prioritization, and CRM integration
 * The Mustang Methodology: Cloneable, scalable, and measurable frameworks
 * Why Good Ops is Invisible but Critical
 * The Human Side of MOps: Communication, trust, and long-term collaboration
 * MarTech in 2025: Trends, AI tools, and the expanding MOps ecosystem

Links:

 * Courtney’s Company – https://www.mustangmartech.com [https://www.mustangmartech.com/]
 * Connect with Courtney on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/courtneymcara/
 * Scott Brinker’s MarTech Landscape – https://chiefmartec.com/2025/05/2025-marketing-technology-landscape-supergraphic-100x-growth-since-2011-but-now-with-ai/
 * MOps-Apalooza – https://mopsapalooza.com [https://mopsapalooza.com/]

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

45–Courtney McAra: Taming the Chaos — Marketing Ops

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum speaks with Michael Whitmer, Vice President at Look East and a longtime strategist in the food and agriculture space. Michael has spent more than two decades helping food brands and commodity organizations communicate clearly, build credibility, and connect with consumers on what matters most.

They discuss how food intersects with identity, why consumer trust in institutions has eroded, and how organizations can communicate values—not just facts—to earn that trust back. Michael shares lessons from his work with the Illinois Soybean Association, The Center for Food Integrity, and other organizations shaping the future of food production and sustainability.

Topics Explored:

 * Building Consumer Trust in the Food System
 * Why Facts Alone Aren’t Enough: The Power of Shared Values in Communication
 * Lessons from Agricultural Commodity Marketing and Checkoff Programs
 * Transparency, Traceability, and the Role of Narrative in Food Branding
 * How Food Connects to Identity, Emotion, and Belief
 * Trust, Misinformation, and the Importance of Dialogue
 * The Future of Food Integrity and Responsible Communication

Links:

 * Connect with Michael on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelawhitmer/
 * Michael’s company Look East: https://lookeast.com [https://lookeast.com/]
 * The Center for Food Integrity: https://foodintegrity.org [https://foodintegrity.org/]
 * Related episode with lan Fine on the GROW: https://unfoldingthought.com/28-alan-fine-exploring-the-inner-game-to-grow/

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

44–Michael Whitmer: Food, Trust, and the Stories We Tell

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum sits down with Gini Dietrich, founder of Spin Sucks and creator of the PESO Model©—a strategic framework for aligning paid, earned, shared, and owned media to build reputation and deliver business results.

Gini shares lessons from her work advising brands, training communicators, and building a thriving media and education company. She explains how trust is built and broken in communications, what it takes to sustain content over time, and why PR needs a seat at the executive table. We also talk about the mindset behind showing up publicly and consistently, even when it’s hard or slow.

Gini’s insights are practical and refreshingly grounded. This episode is a valuable listen for anyone responsible for messaging, marketing, or media strategy.

Topics Explored:

 * What is the PESO Model—and how does it create business results?
 * Why communicators must learn to speak the language of the C-suite
 * The long-game of building thought leadership and trust
 * The Spin Sucks origin story and lessons from building community
 * Challenges and opportunities in earned media today
 * How to know what’s actually working in communications
 * Balancing transparency, authority, and discipline in public content

Links:

 * Gini Dietrich, Spin Sucks, and the PESO Model: https://spinsucks.com [https://spinsucks.com/]

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

43–Gini Dietrich: Building Trust and Growing with the PESO Model

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum speaks with Peter Kelly-Detwiler, an expert in global energy markets and sustainability. Peter discusses the dynamic interplay between technology, economics, and policy shaping the energy sector today and into the future.

Peter addresses critical issues like the complexities of integrating renewable energy sources, the role of AI and advanced software in optimizing grid efficiency, and the geopolitical forces impacting energy markets. He also shares insights into cutting-edge developments such as modular nuclear power, advanced geothermal technology, and innovative storage solutions.

Topics Explored:

 * The Evolution of Global Energy Markets
 * Sustainability and Energy: Defining Practical Solutions
 * The Role of Technological Innovation in Energy Transformation
 * AI and Advanced Software Applications in Energy Grid Management
 * Challenges and Opportunities in Renewable Energy Integration
 * Geopolitical Impacts on Energy Markets and Infrastructure
 * Emerging Technologies: Modular Nuclear, Geothermal, and Advanced Batteries
 * Strategies for Future Energy Resilience and Adaptability

Links:

 * Visit Peter’s website: http://peterkellydetwiler.com [http://peterkellydetwiler.com/]
 * Connect with Peter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterkellydetwiler/
 * Peter’s talk on forecasting challenges in energy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dveBB-xXs0
 * IPCC reports on climate and energy: https://www.ipcc.ch/reports/

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

42–Peter Kelly-Detwiler: The Future of Energy and Sustainability

In this solo episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum explores the decline of album sales in light of Rick Beato’s recent video on the best-selling albums of the 21st century. Rather than attributing the change solely to streaming or market fragmentation, Eric frames the issue through the Pace Layers model—offering a more nuanced explanation for why physical albums have faded and why that doesn’t mean music is in decline.

He walks through the origins of the album format, how it became embedded in our culture, and why innovations like streaming reshape not just delivery methods but how we define and experience music itself. This reflection goes beyond nostalgia to reveal what truly happens when old standards fade and new systems emerge.

Topics Explored:

 * Why we’ll never again see albums sell like Adele’s 25 or Linkin Park’s Meteora
 * The problem with comparing physical album sales to digital streams
 * What Rick Beato gets right—and misses—about the music industry’s evolution
 * The Pace Layers model and how it explains slow vs. fast change in culture
 * How streaming disrupted not just formats, but the cultural foundations of music
 * Why losing a familiar standard doesn’t always mean losing something meaningful

Links:

 * Rick Beato’s video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lel_J1-zxmU
 * For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

39–Rick Beato, Pace Layers, and the Evolution of Music

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum is joined by Ian Mai, an ADHD and impulse-control coach dedicated to helping people understand and transform their impulsive behaviors into strengths. Ian shares his deeply personal journey—from confronting internet addiction and infidelity to achieving meaningful and sustainable recovery through ADHD awareness and inner strength training.

Ian outlines the psychological foundations of impulsive behavior, describing how emotional disregulation, dopamine-seeking, and conditioned responses play crucial roles. He provides practical strategies for building emotional resilience and impulse control, emphasizing mindfulness, intentional discomfort, and honest self-reflection.

This conversation goes beyond ADHD to explore how impulsive behaviors affect relationships, career success, and self-worth. Ian’s passion and clarity around these topics offer valuable guidance for anyone facing similar challenges or looking to understand those who do.

Topics Explored:

 * Ian’s Personal Journey: From addiction and impulsivity to awareness and coaching
 * Understanding ADHD and Impulsive Behavior: Emotional regulation, dopamine, and conditioned responses
 * Practical Strategies for Managing ADHD and Impulse Control
 * Relationship Dynamics: How impulsivity impacts marriage and family life
 * Transforming Shame into Inner Strength
 * Cultivating Mindfulness and Intentional Discomfort to Build Resilience
 * The Importance of Being Comfortable with Misunderstanding and Authentic Self-Expression

Links:

 * Ian’s Company: https://www.ianmai.co [https://www.ianmai.co/]
 * Connect with Ian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-mai-inner-strength/

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

40–Ian Mai: Mastering ADHD and Impulse Control through Inner Strength

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum talks with Ryan Scott, Head of Product at DNA Behavior, a company focused on delivering precise behavioral analytics using AI and machine learning. Ryan outlines his career growth from finance intern to AI innovator, highlighting how behavioral insights can dramatically improve business outcomes.

Ryan discusses the innovative ways DNA Behavior utilizes AI—from predicting communication styles and job titles based on minimal data, to automating client interactions through advanced chatbots. We delve into practical applications of AI for businesses of all sizes, the challenges of integrating AI into existing workflows, and how AI is reshaping organizational structures and personal roles.

This episode offers invaluable perspectives on the power and potential of AI-driven insights to enhance customer relations, streamline operations, and future-proof businesses.

Topics Explored:

 * Ryan’s Path: From finance student to Head of Product at DNA Behavior
 * AI and Behavioral Analytics: How DNA Behavior is leveraging big data
 * Practical AI Applications: Enhancing client relationships and communication strategies
 * Automation and Efficiency: Tools and tactics for integrating AI into business processes
 * Predictive Modeling and Machine Learning: Advanced techniques for business insights
 * Challenges and Best Practices in AI Integration
 * The Future of Work: AI’s impact on organizational structures and personal roles

Links:

 * DNA Behavior: https://dnabehavior.com/start
 * Connect with Ryan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanwadescott/
 * Microsoft AI Training: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/training/courses/ai-900t00
 * Sanebox: https://www.sanebox.com [https://www.sanebox.com/]
 * n8n Workflow Automation: https://n8n.io [https://n8n.io/]
 * Wonderchat AI Management: https://wonderchat.io [https://wonderchat.io/]
 * Episode 31 with Hugh Massie: https://unfoldingthought.com/31-hugh-massie-reaching-1-billion-annually-with-behavioral-insights/

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

41–Ryan Scott: The Intersection of Behavior & AI

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum sits down with David Greer, entrepreneurial coach and author of "Wind In Your Sails: Vital Strategies That Accelerate Your Entrepreneurial Growth." David shares powerful lessons from his journey—from building and exiting a successful software company to confronting and overcoming alcoholism, and eventually shaping a fulfilling career coaching other entrepreneurs.

David explains the importance of strategic clarity, intentional quarterly planning, and the value of aligning personal strengths with professional goals. He emphasizes the critical balance of personal resilience and high performance, offering practical advice on how entrepreneurs can better manage their businesses, their teams, and themselves.

Topics Explored:

 * Navigating Addiction and Sobriety: David’s transformative personal journey
 * Strategic Planning and Execution: Using clear, actionable plans to drive growth
 * Entrepreneurial Challenges: Transitioning from startup phase to scalable organization
 * The Importance of Written Goals and Accountability
 * Balancing Self, Family, and Business for Sustainable Success
 * Coaching Entrepreneurs through Organizational and Personal Obstacles
 * How Personal Growth Impacts Professional Performance

Links:

 * Wind In Your Sails book by David Greer: https://www.amazon.com/Wind-Your-Sails-Strategies-Entrepreneurial-ebook/dp/B01E9NQI9Y
 * Connect with David on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjgreer
 * David’s website: https://coachdjgreer.com [https://coachdjgreer.com/]
 * Rockefeller Habits and Scaling Up by Verne Harnish: https://scalingup.com [https://scalingup.com/]
 * StrengthsFinder Assessment: https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/home.aspx

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

38–David Greer: Building Entrepreneurial Clarity and Conquering Addiction

The Unfolding Thought Podcast asks a provocative question: Why do we—and the groups we form—think and act the way we do? Although we may feel we understand ourselves and others, much of what drives our thoughts, choices, and behaviors remains hidden or overlooked. Through candid discussions and multi-disciplinary explorations, we reveal those unseen forces—biases, contexts, and patterns—and show how they influence individual and collective dynamics.

If you’re a leader or an intellectually curious mind looking for deep, high-value conversations, join us. We’ll challenge common assumptions, illuminate new perspectives, and spark meaningful change—helping you navigate relationships with greater clarity, innovate with confidence, and connect more authentically with those around you.

Eric Pratum

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