In this episode, Eric talks with Tamsen Webster—message designer, strategist, speaker, and author of Find Your Red Thread and Say What They Can’t Unhear. The conversation explores how ideas spread, why so many messages fail at the point of first explanation, and what it takes to create understanding and lasting change without coercion.

Tamsen explains her work as an “English-to-English translator,” helping leaders, founders, and thinkers transform complex or technical ideas into something others can understand, believe, and act on. She and Eric dig into dual-process thinking, accelerated perspective shifts, how adults actually learn, and why messaging must speak to both the analytic and automatic parts of the mind.

They cover:

 * Why most ideas break at the moment they’re first explained
 * The role of intuition, felt experience, and the “automatic brain” in making meaning
 * Why storytelling works, and why it’s not enough without a clear underlying argument
 * How foundational principles (axioms, first principles, endoxa) create common ground
 * Why leaders and founders need a reasoning model (ITBA) and a narrative model (Red Thread)
 * What Tamsen is learning from her doctoral research in adult learning and accelerated perspective change
 * How to avoid triggering resistance while preserving agency, transparency, and consent
 * Why some changes happen instantly while others require long processes—and what makes the difference

This episode is a deep look at how people understand new ideas, how belief shifts happen, and how to communicate change in a way that sticks.

Episode Links

 * Tamsen Webster: https://tamsenwebster.com [https://tamsenwebster.com/]
 * Message Design Institute: https://messagedesigninstitute.com [https://messagedesigninstitute.com/]
 * Find Your Red Thread: https://amzn.to/3Kn9yVW
 * Say What They Can’t Unhear: https://amzn.to/49MFWf3
 * Follow Tamsen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamsenwebster/
 * Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman: https://amzn.to/48FMHif
 * Owen Fitzpatrick: https://owenfitzpatrick.com [https://owenfitzpatrick.com/]
 * How Minds Change by David McRaney: https://amzn.to/49bMMKD
 * The Ancient Art of Thinking for Yourself by Robin Reames: https://amzn.to/3IUtBur

For more episodes: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com

Tamsen Webster: Making Ideas Make Sense

In this episode, Eric talks with Jason Keath—founder of Social Fresh, longtime creative strategist, and author of The Case for More Bad Ideas. The conversation explores why creativity is misunderstood, why most organizations limit their own creative potential, and why truly inventive work comes from consistent practice rather than inspiration.

Jason explains how he approaches idea generation, why “bad ideas” matter, and what people get wrong about brainstorming. Eric and Jason also dig into discipline vs. inspiration, the value of keeping an organized idea archive, how constraints unlock better work, and how AI fits into the creative process.

They cover:

 * The counterintuitive nature of creativity
 * Why variety, environment, and “brushing up against life” matter
 * How Jason uses lists, patterns, and saved ideas
 * Why most corporate brainstorms underperform
 * How to bring more creative permission into your team
 * The difference between creative insight and creative execution
 * How AI can help and why it falls short without human direction

Whether you’re a marketer, writer, strategist, or just someone trying to think more creatively, this conversation gives you a grounded, practical way to strengthen your creative practice.

Episode Links

 * Jason Keath: https://jasonkeath.com [https://jasonkeath.com/]
 * Social Fresh: https://socialfresh.com [https://socialfresh.com/]
 * More Bad Ideas newsletter: https://www.morebadideas.com [https://www.morebadideas.com/]
 * The Case for More Bad Ideas (Jason’s book): https://amzn.to/3XFah82
 * Jason’s article “How To Be More Creative”: https://jasonkeath.com/more-creative/
 * Seinfeld on the Pop-Tart joke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itWxXyCfW5s

For more episodes: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com

Jason Keath: More Bad Ideas

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum talks with strategist and thinker Steve Kozel about the tension between our craving for certainty and the messy reality of complex systems. Steve—Director of Strategy and Marketing Technology at Osborne Barr Paramore—shares what he’s learned from years helping organizations make better decisions in conditions that can never be fully predicted.

They explore what strategy actually means (and why the word itself often obscures more than it clarifies), how fear and risk aversion shape corporate culture, and why “best practices” often kill the very innovation they promise to protect. The conversation moves from agency life to complexity science, Plato’s Allegory of the Cave, Ken Wilber’s idea of “transcend and include,” and the cultural fragmentation of modern life. Together, they examine how individuals and organizations can think—and act—more clearly when faced with uncertainty.

Topics Explored:

 * The many “altitudes” of strategy — and why most strategists never reach the highest one
 * Why true strategy demands choice and risk
 * How fear of failure and craving for certainty distort business decisions
 * The contradiction of wanting scientific proof while avoiding experimentation
 * Lessons from complexity science and why interdependence can lead to stagnation
 * The shift from geographic to affinity-based communities and what that means for culture
 * Identity, ideology, and the loss of foundational “pace layers” in modern life
 * What Plato, Roger Martin, and Ken Wilber can teach us about thinking in systems

Links:

 * Steve Kozel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevekozel/
 * Richard Rummelt – Good Strategy Bad Strategy: https://amzn.to/3JckbKJ
 * Roger Martin – Playing to Win: https://rogerlmartin.com [https://rogerlmartin.com/]
 * Robert Wright – Non-Zero: The Logic of Human Destiny: https://amzn.to/4nOuLXt

For more episodes: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com

Steve Kozel: The Myth of Control

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum talks with Greg Bergdorf—founding guitarist of the Grammy-nominated, gold-record band Zebrahead—about creativity, reinvention, and the mindset behind mastering more than one craft.

Greg reflects on his journey from garage rehearsals and backyard keggers to international tours, and what it was like to walk away from fame to build a new life in real estate. He shares how lessons from music—persistence, collaboration, and curiosity—translate into success in any field, and why hard work still beats talent when the two meet on stage or in business.

From building one of the first fan email lists in the mid-’90s to producing independent films and mentoring new musicians, Greg shows how reinvention isn’t about starting over—it’s about carrying your mindset forward.

Topics Explored:

 * Learning persistence and adaptability through music
 * How early marketing instincts (fan mailing lists, DIY promo) shaped later business success
 * Transitioning from global touring to local business life
 * The balance between art, family, and self-identity
 * Lessons from producing music and coaching creativity
 * Teaching the next generation: work ethic, passion, and patience

Links:

 * Greg’s website: https://www.gregbergdorf.com [https://www.gregbergdorf.com/]
 * The Bourbon Brothers Band: https://bourbonbrothersband.com [https://bourbonbrothersband.com/]
 * Connect with Greg on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/greg_bergdorf
 * Zebrahead official site: https://www.zebrahead.com [https://www.zebrahead.com/]
 * Episode with Ryan Hogan: https://unfoldingthought.com/36-ryan-hogan-the-recruiting-industry-is-broken/

For more episodes: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com

Greg Bergdorf: From Guitar Riffs to Real Estate Pitches

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum talks with Dr. Lance Mortlock—Managing Partner for Industrials & Energy at EY Canada, adjunct professor, and author of Outside In, Inside Out and Disaster Proof. Together they explore how leaders can create clarity and resilience in a world defined by uncertainty, disruption, and accelerating change.

Lance shares what decades of advising executives have taught him about why most strategies fail—not because they’re wrong, but because they’re poorly executed—and how his “diamond framework” helps organizations balance external insight with internal capability. The conversation ranges from the evolution of AI and scenario planning to why balance, adaptability, and courage define the best leaders and companies.

Topics Covered

 * How Lance’s work as a strategist and adjunct professor shaped his writing
 * The continuing impact of AI on organizational design and decision-making
 * Why humans remain essential for understanding—beyond data and knowledge
 * The “Outside-In / Inside-Out” diamond framework for strategy and execution
 * The role of balance: vertical (external vs. internal) and horizontal (strategy vs. execution)
 * Why 90% of strategies fail and what great companies do differently
 * How resilience and adaptability separate good organizations from great ones
 * Lessons from Hari Budha Magar’s Everest climb on leadership and perseverance

Resources Mentioned

 * Visit Lance Mortlock’s website: https://www.lancemortlock.com [https://www.lancemortlock.com/]
 * Follow Lance on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-lance-mortlock-01b36b22/
 * Lance’s first book Disaster Proof: https://amzn.to/4qDroV0
 * Lance’s most recent book Outside In, Inside Out: https://amzn.to/47rsXOm
 * James Barrat’s Our Final Invention: https://amzn.to/43UqMk0
 * Nick Bostrom’s Superintelligence: https://amzn.to/4osxsOA
 * Max Tegmark’s Life 3.0: https://amzn.to/3WIThNJ
 * Double amputee Hari Magar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hari_Budha_Magar

For more episodes: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com

Lance Mortlock: The Outside In, Inside Out of Business

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum speaks with Mitch Joel — entrepreneur, author of Six Pixels of Separation and CTRL ALT Delete, and host of the podcasts Thinking with Mitch Joel and Groove: The No Treble Podcast. Mitch shares his perspective on entrepreneurship, creativity, and why “success is the anomaly.”

They explore how Thinkers One is democratizing access to thought leadership, why change—not stasis—is the natural state of business and culture, and how our relationship with technology and media shapes what it means to be “social.” Mitch also reflects on his decades-long journey across marketing, music, and digital innovation — and how curiosity, humility, and a willingness to “show your work” are essential to staying relevant in a world that never stops shifting.

Topics Explored:

 * The myth of the “entrepreneurial mindset” and why success can’t be replicated
 * Why Thinkers One exists and how it redefines access to expert thinking
 * Escaping stasis: how to stay curious and open to change
 * The balance between longform depth and shortform accessibility
 * The philosophy behind Thinking with Mitch Joel and the art of asking better questions
 * What creativity and bass playing have in common
 * How to rethink “social” in an age of constant screens

Links:

 * Mitch Joel’s website: https://www.mitchjoel.com [https://www.mitchjoel.com/]
 * Thinking with Mitch Joel podcast: https://thinkersone.com/blogs/six-pixels-of-separation-podcast
 * Groove: The No Treble Podcast: https://www.notreble.com/podcast/
 * Thinkers One: https://thinkersone.com [https://thinkersone.com/]
 * Mitch’s Six Pixels of Separation: https://amzn.to/4qDUJyx
 * Mitch’s Ctrl Alt Delete: https://amzn.to/436zVWC
 * Susan Orlean on writing: https://www.susanorlean.com [https://www.susanorlean.com/]
 * Empathy and fiction study: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3559433/
 * Patrick Tanguay: https://pkty.ca [https://pkty.ca/]
 * Tom Webster’s The Audience Listening: https://amzn.to/4qvmJ7w
 * Colman Swisher’s appearance on From There to Here: https://boldrfutures.com/from-there-to-here-podcast-featuring-colman-swisher/
 * Jess Villegas’ The Leader’s Commute: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-leaders-commute-podcast/id1712720351

For more episodes: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com

Mitch Joel: The Entrepreneur’s Mindset and the Danger of Stasis

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum speaks with Rory O’Neill—emergency physician, coach, and creator of the Coach Rory Soccer YouTube channel (with more than 50,000 subscribers). Rory blends the discipline of medicine with the craft of player development, offering a rare dual perspective on learning, leadership, and what’s broken in U.S. youth soccer.

They discuss how early habits from baseball shaped Rory’s approach to medicine and coaching, why building from the back isn’t just a tactic but a philosophy of learning, and how systemic incentives—money, structure, and culture—are distorting development in the U.S. game.

From the economics of clubs to the myths of burnout and multi-sport participation, Rory unpacks what he calls “the matrix” of American soccer and why true progress may depend less on talent than on how—and why—we teach.

Topics Explored

 * How baseball and discipline shaped Rory’s medical and coaching philosophies
 * Why player development in the U.S. is structurally misaligned
 * The hidden incentives driving youth clubs and closed-league systems
 * What “promotion and relegation” actually mean for development
 * Objective vs. subjective measures of progress in coaching
 * The myth of burnout and the debate over single-sport specialization
 * How cultural context (Argentina, Iceland, England) changes the meaning of “fun” and “work” in youth sports
 * What it really means to “wake up and see the matrix” of American soccer

Links

 * Rory O’Neill’s YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@CoachRorySoccer
 * Rory’s club Keystone FC: https://www.keystonefc.com [https://www.keystonefc.com/]
 * Rory’s corners video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EWg8v6PUp8
 * Rory’s 3Four3 podcast appearances: https://343coaching.com/podcast/soccer-by-3four3/ep-344-rory-oneill-how-to-discern-well-coached-teams-from-the-rest/ & https://343coaching.com/podcast/soccer-by-3four3/ep-367-us-coaching-licenses-another-credentialism-scam-or-education/
 * How UEFA is funded: https://www.uefa.com/running-competitions/financial-distribution/our-business-model/
 * Rory’s video “The Do’s and Don’ts of Soccer Parenting”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLRkOW-v-ck

For more episodes: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com

Rory O’Neill: Inside the Matrix of American Youth Soccer

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum speaks with Jeff Meredith, Associate Creative Director at RKD Group and longtime writer for rescue missions across the U.S. Over the past two decades, Jeff has interviewed more than a thousand people who’ve experienced homelessness, addiction, and recovery—gaining rare insight into what drives collapse and what makes renewal possible.

Jeff shares what he’s learned from the front lines of homelessness: how family breakdown, trauma, and addiction often intersect; why accountability and forgiveness are essential to recovery; and what the most successful rescue missions do differently. This is a grounded, compassionate look at the human stories behind one of America’s most complex social challenges.

Topics Explored

 * The changing face of homelessness—and why women are now the fastest-growing group
 * What drives addiction and how recovery really works
 * How childhood trauma and family breakdown shape adult outcomes
 * The interplay of mental illness, accountability, and hope
 * Why recovery requires both compassion and structure
 * How faith-based missions rebuild lives physically, emotionally, and spiritually

Links

 * Connect with Jeff on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-meredith-ab97b34/
 * Episode with Andy Bales: https://unfoldingthought.com/20-andy-bales-from-poverty-to-purpose/
 * The Biology of Desire: Why Addiction Is Not a Disease: https://amzn.to/4nl7MTa
 * $2.00 a Day: Living on Almost Nothing in America: https://amzn.to/46yZPEk

For more episodes: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com

Jeff Meredith: The Stories Behind Homelessness

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum speaks with Bob Hoffman — author of Adscam and The Ad Contrarian — about the uncomfortable truths at the heart of digital advertising.

Bob explains how adtech evolved into one of the largest surveillance systems ever built, why marketers mistake data quantity for quality, and how political deregulation is quietly eroding online privacy.

They unpack the illusion of precision in behavioral targeting, the billions lost to fraud and waste, and why empathy and ethics—not algorithms—may be the only path to rebuilding trust between brands and the public.

Topics Explored

 * How real-time bidding turns personal data into a global broadcast
 * Why the online ad economy rewards fraud more than performance
 * The quiet rollback of digital-privacy protections in the U.S.
 * How measurement and “attribution” distort both marketing and democracy
 * What Arielle Garcia’s revelations say about Google’s control of ad trade groups
 * Why marketers keep believing in bad numbers
 * What honest advertising might look like in a post-surveillance world

Links

 * Bob’s website – https://www.bobhoffmanswebsite.com [https://www.bobhoffmanswebsite.com/]
 * Irish Council for Civil Liberties report on real-time bidding – https://www.iccl.ie/news/iccl-report-on-the-scale-of-real-time-bidding-data-broadcasts-in-the-u-s-and-europe/
 * Arielle Garcia article – https://www.mi-3.com.au/18-06-2024/ex-um-privacy-chief-lifts-lid-google-has-captured-trade-associations-and-holdcos
 * Pentagon Pizza Twitter story – https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/06/16/pentagon-pizza-account-israel-iran-attack/84229144007/
 * Don McMillan video, How Marketers Twist Statistics – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbOpD2b55s4

For more episodes, visit unfoldingthought.com [http://unfoldingthought.com/]

Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com

The Ad Contrarian, Bob Hoffman: How Marketing Lost Its Mind

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum speaks with Martin Bihl — writer, strategist, podcaster, and self-described “recovering ad man.” Known for his sharp wit and reflective takes on marketing, media, and the human condition, Martin challenges conventional thinking about creativity, capitalism, and the culture of business.

The conversation explores how advertising both reflects and shapes our shared values — from branded playgrounds to the myth of the “creative genius.” Martin shares his experience navigating agency life, why he created The Agency Review to critique the industry from within, and how his contrarian curiosity fuels his writing and podcast You’re On Mute.

Together, they discuss the interplay between thinking and doing, why “strategy” has become theater, and what we might learn by viewing business less as a machine and more as a story — one that tells us who we are and what we believe.

Topics Explored

 * Why marketing isn’t just persuasion — it’s identity construction
 * How capitalism commodifies attention, meaning, and play
 * The myth of the “creative” and the illusion of originality
 * Why the line between art, commerce, and morality keeps blurring
 * The difference between thinking strategically and theatrically
 * How irony and sincerity coexist in modern branding
 * The role of critique — and why we need more of it inside the industry

Links

 * Connect with Martin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martinbihl/
 * Visit Martin’s website: https://www.martinbihl.com [https://www.martinbihl.com/]
 * The Agency Review: https://the-agency-review.com [https://the-agency-review.com/]
 * Martin’s article on thinking and doing: https://www.martinbihl.com/business-thinking/i-think-i-can-alternative-business-strategy
 * McDonald’s milkshake story by Clayton Christensen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXYm-CVzPQ0
 * You’re On Mute podcast: https://www.martinbihl.com/youreonmutethepodcast

For More Episodes

Visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com

Martin Bihl: This Playground Brought to You by Miller Brewing Company

The Unfolding Thought Podcast asks a provocative question: Why do we—and the groups we form—think and act the way we do? Although we may feel we understand ourselves and others, much of what drives our thoughts, choices, and behaviors remains hidden or overlooked. Through candid discussions and multi-disciplinary explorations, we reveal those unseen forces—biases, contexts, and patterns—and show how they influence individual and collective dynamics.

If you’re a leader or an intellectually curious mind looking for deep, high-value conversations, join us. We’ll challenge common assumptions, illuminate new perspectives, and spark meaningful change—helping you navigate relationships with greater clarity, innovate with confidence, and connect more authentically with those around you.

Eric Pratum

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