In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum [http://inboundandagile.com/] sits down with Jes Deaver [http://jesdeaver.com/], an architect and storyteller who uses interdisciplinary thinking, film, and science fiction to help communities envision better futures. Jes talks candidly about her journey from working with specialty cameras on film sets to exploring architecture through personal and collaborative projects, including the meaningful partnership with her architect father.

Jes shares fascinating stories of how she uses storytelling to make architecture relatable and exciting to the public, discussing her belief that everyone is an expert in architecture through their lived experiences. The episode also dives deep into the concept of positive constraints—how limitations like building codes or project parameters can inspire creativity, leading to extraordinary outcomes like the unique "eclipse" feature she designed in a home.

We also explore Jes’ work on public projects, her recent talk "Brave New City" at SXSW, and how embracing entropy and continual change have shaped her personal growth and professional innovation.

Topics Explored:

 * Jes’ path from filmmaking to architecture and the intersection of these fields.
 * The power of storytelling to demystify architecture.
 * Positive constraints in architecture and creativity, inspired by J.J. Abrams' "Mystery Box."
 * The role of architects in imagining and shaping long-term futures.
 * Jes' approach to making architecture accessible through immersive storytelling and multimedia.
 * Why embracing entropy—introducing deliberate chaos—can foster creativity and personal growth.

Links:

 * Connect with Jes on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jesdeaver/
 * Email Jes: jes@jesdeaver.com
 * Jes' Website: https://www.jesdeaver.com/
 * Jes' SXSW Talk, Brave New City: https://schedule.sxsw.com/2025/events/PP147385
 * Jes on Architette Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/041-jes-deaver-deep-dive-on-residential-project-offbeat/id1664012857?i=1000666628133
 * Jes on TALKdesign Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@talkdesignpodcast
 * Jes on Imaginary Worlds Podcast: https://www.imaginaryworldspodcast.org/episodes/blueprints-for-utopias
 * Brave Architecture: https://bravearchitecture.com/
 * J.J. Abrams' TED Talk on positive constraints: https://www.ted.com/talks/j_j_abrams_the_mystery_box?language=en
 * Spaceman in Bohemia by Jaroslav Kalfar: https://amzn.to/43hGLYl
 * "Spaceman" film based on Spaceman in Bohemia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceman_(2024_film)

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]
Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

32–Jes Deaver: Imagining Our Architectural Future Through Science Fiction

Eric Pratum speaks with Hugh Massie—founder and executive chairman of DNA Behavior—a behavioral insights company that helps individuals and organizations measure and leverage natural behavior patterns to drive financial performance, cultural alignment, and leadership effectiveness.

Hugh shares his journey from chartered accountant in Australia to global entrepreneur, explains how “financial DNA” and “business DNA” were born, and reveals how behavioral insights can predict profit, optimize hiring, reduce friction in business processes, and guide strategy in even the most complex environments.

This episode explores not only Hugh’s unique approach to leadership and entrepreneurship, but also how DNA Behavior has developed psychometric tools that are transparent, scalable, and able to identify performance-driving traits across teams, customers, and leaders. Hugh’s vision of behavior as a predictive tool—not just a descriptive one—is reshaping the way businesses understand their people.

Topics Explored:

 1. From Accountant to Behavioral Pioneer: How Hugh’s dissatisfaction with a purely financial world led him to psychometrics and human behavior.
 2. Hyper-Personalization in Finance: Why understanding a client’s behavioral profile was the cornerstone of Hugh’s wealth management success.
 3. The DNA Behavior Origin Story: How a coffee shop conversation and a curious team member launched a decades-long mission.
 4. Behavior Makes Money: Hugh’s research linking six core behaviors to profitability in Fortune 500 companies.
 5. The Rise of Digital Behavioral Scanning: How DNA Behavior is eliminating friction and profiling hundreds of millions of people without them ever taking an assessment.
 6. The Future of Behavioral Science: Why Hugh believes behavior is “the last frontier” in business optimization.

Links:

 * Connect with Hugh on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hughmassie/
 * Check out DNA Behavior: https://dnabehavior.com/start
 * Leadership Financial Value Creation Capability Research: https://kb.dnabehavior.com/gene/leadership-financial-value-creation-capability-research
 * PwC Report: 45% of CEOs believe their businesses won’t be viable in a decade: https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/news-room/press-releases/2024/economic-optimism-doubles-yet-almost-half-of-ceos-do-not-believe-their-businesses-will-be-viable-in-a-decade.html
 * Play Bigger (book): https://amzn.to/4djaViL

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

31–Hugh Massie: Reaching 1 Billion Annually with Behavioral Insights

Eric Pratum sits down with Kari Zeller, whose journey began as an Air Force officer confronting the critical realities of aircraft maintenance during wartime. Kari explains how her leadership evolution from the battlefield to the corporate world shaped her approach to organizational mobilization—a distinct departure from traditional change management. Together, they explore why aligning strategy, structure, culture, and human engagement is essential for successfully navigating complex transitions, including mergers, acquisitions, and shifts in organizational eras.

Kari also addresses today's pressing leadership challenges around AI disruption, accelerating technological change, and the profound psychological aspects of human transitions, urging leaders to foster genuine trust and co-creation rather than control and coercion.

Topics Explored:

 1. From Battlefield to Boardroom: How Kari’s military experiences shaped her views on leadership and organizational mobilization.
 2. Beyond Change Management: Why traditional strategies often fail and how mobilization creates lasting organizational transformations.
 3. Human Messiness & Performance: Embracing subjective human experiences as a pathway to real organizational success.
 4. Co-Creation in Leadership: The importance of genuinely involving teams in authoring the organization's future.
 5. AI and Organizational Uncertainty: Preparing teams and strategies for accelerating disruptions from AI and quantum computing.
 6. Psychological Transitions: Effectively navigating the human dimensions of major change, from grief and loss to successful integration into new organizational realities.

Links:

 * Connect with Kari on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kari-zeller
 * Visit Kari’s Company: https://www.tgn-consulting.com/
 * Some of Kari’s thoughts on AI: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/introducing-leaders-our-new-non-human-peer-kari-granger-eo9uc/
 * Is this our Buffalo Moment? https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/future-work-augmentation-human-connection-competitive-kari-granger-uoaac/ [https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/future-work-augmentation-human-connection-competitive-kari-granger-uoaac/?trackingId=o8WAWMOfSe%2BDp4mjLBIVmg%3D%3D]
 * Kari discussing ontological vulnerability: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0FIA29Wm6Q
 * Radical Hope by Jonathan Lear: https://amzn.to/44mA7lY
 * JOEY Restaurants https://joeyrestaurants.com [https://joeyrestaurants.com/]
 * It was in Neil Postman’s Amusing Ourselves to Death, where the discussion of the difference between Orwell’s and Huxley’s visions of the future occurred: https://amzn.to/44uDUxB
 * Kari’s podcast on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/leadership-impact/id1438805019
 * Adam Wallace’s episode: https://unfoldingthought.com/18-adam-wallace-overcoming-constraints-to-capture-value/

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]
Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

30–Kari Zeller: Humanity’s Buffalo Moment

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum talks with Derek Mulhern—a consultant often working with nonprofits and associations to align their strategic vision with practical human-centered solutions. With over 15 years of experience in organizational strategy, team alignment, and board governance, Derek shares powerful insights into why many organizations struggle with effective change implementation and how true transformation hinges upon understanding and addressing interpersonal dynamics.

Derek discusses why simply applying "best practices" often misses the mark, leading to burnout, frustration, and organizational friction. Through stories and real-world examples, Derek illustrates how to better approach organizational change by grounding it in clear, shared experiences rather than abstract metrics alone. He emphasizes that transformation becomes truly sustainable when changes become ingrained in the culture, mindset, and everyday experiences of an organization’s people.

Topics Explored:

 1. Beyond Best Practices – Why standard solutions often fail to produce meaningful change.
 2. Human-Centered Strategy – The importance of aligning strategic goals with the lived experiences of people in your organization.
 3. The Experience of Transformation – Why true change is more like an ongoing journey than a clearly defined destination.
 4. The Pitfalls of Misalignment – How hidden assumptions and unspoken expectations derail organizational effectiveness.
 5. Visioning for Reality – Effective strategies to define and articulate clear, achievable, and shared organizational visions.
 6. Managing Overwhelm and Conflict – Practical tools and exercises Derek employs to manage team dynamics and interpersonal conflicts.

Links:

 * Connect with Derek Mulhern on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/derek-mulhern-bb674214/
 * Derek Mulhern Consulting: https://www.derekmulhern.com [https://www.derekmulhern.com/]
 * Discussion with Jeremy Nulik: https://unfoldingthought.com/jeremy-nulik-how-vision-shapes-strategy/

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]
Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

29–Derek Mulhern: The Human Side of Organizational Strategy

On this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum sits down with Alan Fine, renowned coach and one of the originators of GROW. Alan takes listeners through his unexpected journey into coaching, from a childhood tennis tournament to shaping global leadership strategies. The conversation delves into how coaching is not merely about asking questions, but also about creating environments where people can safely explore and harness their own potential. Alan emphasizes the importance of choice, focus, and how our inner dialogues influence performance.

Listeners will discover that the simplicity of effective coaching tools often masks their profound impact, making them accessible to anyone aspiring to be more effective in their personal and professional lives.

Topics Explored:

 1. Alan Fine’s personal journey: From asthmatic childhood to renowned coaching expert.
 2. The true story behind GROW and its practical application.
 3. The inner game and overcoming interference to improve performance.
 4. Why listening is the most critical skill for leaders and coaches.
 5. Democratizing coaching: Empowering everyone to have impactful conversations.
 6. Making mindful decisions: How to control focus and foster peak performance.

Links:

 * InsideOut Development: https://insideoutdev.com [https://insideoutdev.com/]
 * Alan Fine’s book You Already Know How to Be Great: https://amzn.to/4ivG3wb
 * GROW episode: https://unfoldingthought.com/grow-business-meditation/
 * Make Choices So You Have Choices® by Rob Clem: https://amzn.to/4hQtgEr
 * The Four Agreements: https://amzn.to/4iHPsBS
 * Winning Through Enlightenment: https://amzn.to/4jmO8o3
 * Taller people live further in the past: https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2009/05/18/104183551/the-secret-advantage-of-being-short#:~:text=It%20may%20be%20that%20our,What%20a%20strange%20idea!

28–Alan Fine: Exploring the Inner Game to GROW

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum sits down with Sheila Burkett, a tech entrepreneur whose background spans finance, racing, historic redevelopment, and digital innovation. Sheila’s career started at Edward Jones, where she advanced from intern to general partner, gaining insight into technology and leadership along the way. Sheila went on to co-found Spry Digital, leveraging open-source technology to empower small and medium-sized businesses with the digital solutions they develop

Sheila’s journey illustrates how embracing risk, nurturing resilience, and championing innovation can lead to opportunity and impact. Sheila is also a vocal advocate for women in technology, emphasizing the critical role of confidence-building and community support to foster inclusion in STEM.

Topics Explored:

 1. Career Transitions – How Sheila navigated major career shifts, from Edward Jones executive to race car entrepreneur and digital agency founder.
 2. Importance of Open Source – Sheila discusses why open-source software is vital for empowering businesses and leveling the competitive playing field.
 3. Leadership and Learning – Key moments and philosophies that shaped Sheila’s approach to leadership and continuous learning.
 4. Resilience in Entrepreneurship – Sheila’s insights into embracing failure, nurturing innovation, and maintaining transparency during challenging times.
 5. Women in Technology – Barriers, misconceptions, and Sheila’s advocacy for greater inclusion and confidence-building for young women in STEM.
 6. Systems and Culture – How Sheila applies her technology and marketing expertise to build efficient operational systems and positive workplace cultures.

Links:

 * Sheila Burkett on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheilaburkett/
 * Spry Digital: https://sprydigital.com [https://sprydigital.com/]
 * Crystal: https://www.crystalknows.com [https://www.crystalknows.com/]
 * National Center for Women & Information Technology: https://ncwit.org [https://ncwit.org/]
 * Dream Hoarders by Richard Reeves: https://amzn.to/4bW4UaP
 * Andy Bales’ episode: https://unfoldingthought.com/20-andy-bales-from-poverty-to-purpose/
 * Kimberly Beckley’s episode: https://unfoldingthought.com/25-kimberly-beckley-rethinking-beauty-school-dreams/

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

27–Sheila Burkett: From Corporate Tech to Racing Cars and Digital Innovation

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, host Eric Pratum chats with Mandy Hoskinson—a digital marketer and agency founder whose journey took her from UCLA’s nascent social media team to founding her own agency in Los Angeles. Along the way, Mandy led social campaigns for marquee brands (like CBS primetime shows, the LA Olympic bid, and more), using her holistic, multicultural perspective to connect data and storytelling. She shares how seizing the right moments (and sometimes pure luck) catapulted her from being an intern dabbling in “the new Facebook events feature” to orchestrating global campaigns with large, diverse teams. Now at the helm of Zolay, Mandy offers high-level strategic social media, bridging her passions for community-building and operational data.

Topics Explored:

 1. From Art & Anthropology to Social Marketing – How Mandy’s unique UCLA degree and global curiosity shaped her approach to communications.
 2. The UCLA Flood & Crisis Comms – Early in her career, Mandy landed in a real-world crisis scenario that taught her the power of facts and quick thinking.
 3. Scaling Strategy & Data – Why Mandy believes every brand needs both “heart” and a CRM-level view of their audience if they want to see real ROI from social.
 4. Building Communities – As President of Social Media Club LA and VP of SMC Global, Mandy talks about how local chapters can support marketers’ careers.
 5. From One-Woman Shop to 12-Person Team – Lessons learned in the transition from freelancing at home to opening an LA studio, including the pandemic pivot.
 6. Cultural Sensitivity in Content – Why certain words, trends, or jokes can backfire, and how Mandy’s multicultural background helps clients navigate complexities.

Links:

 * Mandy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandahoskinson/
 * Zolay: https://zolaystudio.com [https://zolaystudio.com/]
 * Social Media Club Global: https://socialmediaclub.org [https://socialmediaclub.org/]
 * Social Media Club Los Angeles: https://www.socialmediaclub.la [https://www.socialmediaclub.la/]
 * Air Force Blog Assessment: https://web-strategist.com/blog/2008/12/31/diagram-how-the-air-force-response-to-blogs/

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

26–Mandy Maddela Hoskinson: Evolving with Social Media

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, host Eric Pratum welcomes Simplifying Beauty founder Kimberly Beckley, a lash artist, salon owner, and soon-to-be academy director with 20 years of beauty industry experience. Kimberly isn’t your typical beauty professional: she’s driven by the idea that real success comes from running a human-focused, sustainable business—not just chasing trends or hustling 24/7. Kimberly opens up about:

 * Her own journey from corporate environments to entrepreneurship, seeking a healthy work-life balance for herself and her staff.
 * The hard truth about the 37% annual attrition rate in cosmetology, fueled by beauty schools that fail to teach real business fundamentals.
 * Why she believes enhancing someone’s natural beauty is about far more than aesthetics; it’s a confidence boost that can ripple through every area of a client’s life.
 * The parallels between beauty-school promises and the broader higher-ed “sell”—and how a lack of practical training can leave people saddled with debt or a failing business.
 * How her new academy will offer not just technical skill-building but also the strategies you need for running a profitable business while maintaining boundaries and sanity.

If you’ve ever been curious about how a heart-driven entrepreneur can rewrite the script for future generations—this conversation is for you.

Topics Explored:

 1. From Corporate Burnout to Lash Artist - How Kimberly transitioned from a stifling 9-to-5 life into cosmetology—and why she wanted more autonomy for family and self-fulfillment.
 2. Why Beauty Schools Fail Aspiring Entrepreneurs - The reality behind beauty programs: great at teaching state-board skills, terrible at teaching business fundamentals.
 3. Building Confidence vs. Selling Trends - Kimberly explains why she’s big on “there she is again” moments—helping women recognize their authentic selves.
 4. Cutting Through the Hustle-and-Grind Myth - Strategies Kimberly uses (like 90-day reset periods) to avoid burnout, stay profitable, and set boundaries, proving you can love your work without sacrificing your life.
 5. Parallels to Broader Education - How the “bill of goods” about limitless earnings in beauty school mirrors the promises some traditional universities make—without giving students the “blueprint” for actual success.

Links:

 * Simplifying Beauty (Salon Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/simplifyingbeauty_salon/
 * Email Kimberly: kimberlybeckley@simplifyingbeauty.com
 * Connect with Kimberly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberly-beckley/
 * The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz: https://amzn.to/42qGemI
 * Traction by Gino Wickman: https://amzn.to/426FxzX

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

25–Kimberly Beckley: Rethinking Beauty School Dreams

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, host Eric Pratum chats with Ted Wright, the unstoppable force behind the word-of-mouth marketing agency Fizz. Whether you’ve sipped on a Pabst Blue Ribbon after hearing it was suddenly “cool,” tried chocolate milk as your new post-gym recovery hack, or embraced Intel’s early dual-core chip for gaming, there’s a good chance Ted’s work was behind it. Ted insists that the most human brand wins, so his focus is on finding the right story—one that’s authentic, interesting, and relevant—then allowing everyday advocates to share it.

Topics Explored:

 1. Why Story Matters More Than Ever - Why no amount of paid ads can replace a friend’s recommendation and how 8 in 10 Americans distrust brand statements.
 2. A.I. and Word of Mouth - Ted’s take on how new technology can boost but never replace genuine human conversation.
 3. Backstory of Big Successes - How PBR broke into the hipster scene and chocolate milk became the surprise champion for recovery drinks—all through word-of-mouth.
 4. Math + Art = Great Marketing - According to Ted, marketing starts with data but culminates in creative storytelling that triggers real conversations.
 5. Advocates vs. Influencers - Understanding the difference between intrinsically motivated brand loyalists and pay-to-play online personalities, and how each shapes your brand’s future.

If you’ve ever wondered why certain brands become overnight sensations while others burn millions on ads with little return, Ted’s stories and insights will reshape how you view marketing’s real engine—conversations that spread person to person.

Links:

 * Ted Wright on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ted-wright-3266b73/
 * Fizz (Ted’s Agency): https://fizzcorp.com [https://fizzcorp.com/]
 * Ted’s book: https://amzn.to/4lensrk
 * Ted’s Story-Target-Goal triangle: https://fizzcorp.com/strategy/
 * June Wedd at American Dairy Association Mideast: https://www.linkedin.com/in/june-wedd-0193b29/
 * Neal Stewart: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nealstewart/
 * No Logo by Naomi Klein: https://amzn.to/3DQGIu0
 * Chris Brandt at Chipotle Mexican Grill: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-brandt-90b7636/
 * Chris Ullman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisullman/
 * Audacious by Mark Schaefer: https://amzn.to/3XzF6vf
 * Billy Mitchell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/billymitchell1/
 * Sarah Neely: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahmeredithneely/

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

24–Ted Wright – The Timeless Power of Word-of-Mouth Marketing

In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, host Eric Pratum welcomes Jeremy Haselwood—a dynamic marketer, speaker, and two-time author who once poured his heart into making it big in the music industry. Reflecting on experiences from rap battles to marketing consulting for Fortune 500 clients, Jeremy shares how he discovered his “why,” found balance after years of full-throttle hustle, and now helps organizations plan and execute with true purpose.

Topics Explored:

 1. Rap Hustle to Marketing Muscle: Discover how sleepless nights, on-stage setbacks, and raw ambition in Jeremy’s 20s sharpened his resilience and shaped his approach to business.
 2. Finding Your Edge: Learn about Jeremy’s EDGE framework—Eliminate Distractions, Discover Yourself, Generate Goals, and Enact Discipline—and why it’s a game-changer for anyone in transition.
 3. VOSTEK Planning Model: Vision, Objectives, Strategy, Tactics, Execution, and KPIs. Jeremy explains how this model helps teams get clear on goals and avoid “the devil you know” approach to stuck processes.
 4. Owning the Initiative: Why large organizations often flounder with new tech (like AI) or big ideas—because no one officially owns it. Jeremy’s method of assigning true accountability.
 5. Purposeful Marketing & Self-Care: Balancing relentless drive with well-being. Jeremy reveals how he now ensures that hustle doesn’t mean burnout, and why nonprofits and for-profits alike must focus on people over process.

If you’re ready for a candid, uplifting conversation on bridging personal passion and professional purpose—plus strategies for turning big goals into real results—this episode will spark fresh motivation and clarity.

Links:

 * Jeremy’s Website: https://jeremyhaselwood.com [https://jeremyhaselwood.com/]
 * Jeremy’s books: https://www.jeremyhaselwood.com/books — Finding Your EDGE & The Digital Fundraising Blueprint
 * The Jeremy Haselwood Show (Podcast): https://www.jeremyhaselwood.com/podcast
 * Chris Voss’s ‘Never Split the Difference’: https://amzn.to/4bVl9VS
 * RACI Model (Project Management): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_assignment_matrix

For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com [https://unfoldingthought.com/]

Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com

23–Jeremy Haselwood – From Rap Dreams to Purposeful EDGE

The Unfolding Thought Podcast asks a provocative question: Why do we—and the groups we form—think and act the way we do? Although we may feel we understand ourselves and others, much of what drives our thoughts, choices, and behaviors remains hidden or overlooked. Through candid discussions and multi-disciplinary explorations, we reveal those unseen forces—biases, contexts, and patterns—and show how they influence individual and collective dynamics.

If you’re a leader or an intellectually curious mind looking for deep, high-value conversations, join us. We’ll challenge common assumptions, illuminate new perspectives, and spark meaningful change—helping you navigate relationships with greater clarity, innovate with confidence, and connect more authentically with those around you.

Eric Pratum

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