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00:00:01
Ken Boynton: Making Communication More Human
30 Plays14 days ago
In this episode, Eric talks with Ken Boynton—storyteller, communication consultant, former actor and voiceover artist, and co-founder of Message Glue. Ken has spent decades helping leaders, teams, and organizations communicate more clearly and more humanly across stages, screens, meetings, and moments that matter.
The conversation explores what “storytelling” actually means in real organizational life, why most communication fails before it ever reaches the slide deck or script, and how performance anxiety, rigid frameworks, and over-engineered systems often get in the way of genuine connection.
Ken shares stories from his career in theater, voice acting, corporate events, and executive coaching, including how near-death illness reshaped his sense of meaning and led to the creation of Message Glue. Together, he and Eric unpack why being thoughtful matters more than being polished, why listening is harder than speaking, and how effective communication starts with allowing people to be themselves.
They cover:
- Why storytelling is less about structure and more about perspective
- The difference between performing and communicating
- How over-reliance on slides, scripts, and systems breaks human connection
- Why “being yourself” is not vague advice but a practical discipline
- What theater, improv, and acting teach us about leadership communication
- How virtual and live events have changed attention and expectations
- Why good communication often means removing friction, not adding tools
- How fear, self-consciousness, and power dynamics distort messages
- What it means to swing the camera and see from another point of view
This is a thoughtful, grounded conversation for leaders, communicators, marketers, facilitators, and anyone who spends time trying to help ideas land with other humans.
Episode Links
- Connect with Ken on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kenboyntonmessageglue/
- Message Glue: https://www.messageglue.com
- Message Glue storytelling video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml03wwZ1LFA
- Ken’s book Blip: https://amzn.to/4oMO3wv
- Jerry Seinfeld’s stand-up special I’m Telling You for the Last Time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Telling_You_for_the_Last_Time
For more episodes: https://unfoldingthought.com
Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com
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Transcript
00:00:02
Speaker
Ken, thank you for joining me. Where does today's recording find you? Well, quite literally in the basement. um But mentally, this has been one of those weeks where almost everybody I've talked to has...
00:00:21
Speaker
Instead, something to spark thoughts of perspective and ah reminders to keep your perspective as wide as possible. and And I like to talk about it as where you put your camera. Swing your camera a lot around to different points of view just to...
00:00:42
Speaker
keep from getting stuck in one particular way of thinking. So, and being stuck in one particular way of thinking is also a nice way to say I'm in the basement. Would you mind telling me a bit about what it is that you do?
00:00:56
Speaker
Yeah, I wonder about it myself sometimes. Exploring it verbally is probably a good idea. i'm We landed on it because, well, i like I'll jump back to the beginning, but I won't take forever. um I have a degree in theater, studied acting, and spent most of my performing career as a voiceover artist. So doing commercials for radio and television,
00:01:24
Speaker
and then a lot of video games. um So of like the Halo series and Destiny, those big games, i've I did quite a bit of work on those. And as my daughter told me when she was young, I'm at my friend's house and she wants to go back and kill you again. so um So played a lot of diverse characters across that. And,
00:01:51
Speaker
And it wasn't until I started, my wife and I started MessageGlue, which is a communication consulting
00:01:59
Speaker
agency, I guess. And we basically help people communicate more effectively. She's done a lot of teaching in the past and a lot of coaching. And I've done a lot of writing. So we just put those things together To help people shape their thoughts and focus them and and deliver them in whatever medium they need to.
00:02:23
Speaker
So it might be video, it might be on stage, it might be in meetings. We've had teams come to us and say, one particular person, really bright, has trouble.
00:02:35
Speaker
you know, getting engaged in meetings. Can you help him And we've done giant events. You know, i think my largest audience is 15,000. thousand So we're they wrote and directed stage talent. So,
00:02:51
Speaker
And in my mind, it's all the same. We're just helping people communicate more effectively. And and media helps, microphones help, big screens help. um And so working with those kinds of production teams, we make those meetings, whatever, one-on-one or one-on-15,000.
00:03:08
Speaker
fifteen thousand more effective and meaningful for the people who are having them. And so it it really changes a lot. I'm working on a meeting now that'll be a conference, 2,000 people maybe, another one that'll be virtually 5,000 attending um on their screens.
00:03:33
Speaker
umm I'm also doing some work with ah internal communications teams, ah just helping with little stories, you know, articles or whatever for their intranet that employees need to understand and respond to. So in my mind, it's all the same. It's just humans communicating with other humans. And and the the deliverable doesn't matter as much, well, the medium doesn't matter as much as the deliverable, which is effective communications.
00:04:03
Speaker
on the bigger end in terms of audience for your work, is there a common thing that you're doing either today or in the recent past, like, for example, writing a keynote speech?
00:04:16
Speaker
And a lot of keynote speech writing. Yes. Um, And a big part of that is, know, one of the things we have coming up, I write the keynote speech for the leader, but then it's making sure that those elements and tendrils of that make their way into everyone else's presentation so that the audience sees all the connections and we help them along the path to greater understanding and And those are really based on what I think is fun about that is a keynote speech in itself doesn't sound that exciting, but it's a keynote speech for, you know, Martha or Bill or whomever. And that person's unique personality is what drives people.
00:05:05
Speaker
the way it's delivered and, you know, how the content is shaped. And, and that's one of my favorite parts is helping them shape their thoughts, but also,
00:05:17
Speaker
avoid some of the pitfalls of, how shall we say, illogical or awkward storytelling. Because humans recognize it right away. we Something's weird, or I just lose interest and check my phone.
00:05:31
Speaker
And so that's, you know, the big challenge is to make sure that that human connection that's made at the beginning lasts all the way through. Is there a common type of work or is there a place that, you know, in your recent past, you do large amount of work that shows up in conference presentations, for example, or are you really spread across a lot of different communications media?
00:05:58
Speaker
Well, and in the very recent past, um keynote speech, a ape proudly very brief one minute and seven second, uh, explainer video for a very cool scholarship program.
00:06:16
Speaker
Um, these short communication articles, um, emails and announced, even some Slack announcements. So, um,
00:06:28
Speaker
I just don't, I had this conversation with somebody I worked with who like apologized for it not being the thing you actually do. And I said, the thing I actually do is help people communicate. So it doesn't matter to me if it's a keynote or if it's a, I see it all the same because at its very, and I have, if somebody wants to dive deeper into this, I have a video on my LinkedIn page about how we at MessageGlue look at storytelling Because it's really that, it's really connecting humans together. how do we How do we make sure we're connecting the human beings to each other in a meaningful way?
00:07:07
Speaker
And that is, that kind of macro, I swing my camera way back to make sure that I have, that's always in my mind so that I don't know get stuck on the things that usually happen to people, especially in bigger companies where they have all these internal pressures and someone needs to say, yes, but from a human standpoint, let's look at it.
00:07:31
Speaker
Is there a way that we can make sure we maintain that while you're being compliant with whatever corporate pressure you have on you? So in the clients that you tend to work with,
00:07:44
Speaker
If your work has to go on so on somebody's budget, would you be more likely to show up in a communications team if they have one that's separate from a marketing team, if that makes sense?
00:07:57
Speaker
um Yeah, it depends on... And some marketing teams and communications teams are under the same organization. So um we really...
00:08:12
Speaker
the Because it's collaborative and because everybody's input matters to how, especially when you're an external person and there's an internal team, all of that information is really important. So we embrace all of the collaborative part of it. So it's it doesn't really matter where we show up. I've had CEOs bring me in and tell me what they want and then go make sure everybody else follows it. I've had communications teams bring me in. had agencies bring us in as a subcontractor to be what we call the keeper of the story to make sure that it's going to align throughout an event or a rollout or a strategy or whatever it is. So, yeah, it's hard. I mean, because you have a marketing background, which is
00:09:04
Speaker
You could help me. One of the hardest parts about this is about this particular niche that we've landed in is referrals are really the only way that we increase our business because once people have it they see the value and want it more.
00:09:24
Speaker
Um, but it's hard to quantify against the existing structure. Um, and I remember, you know, on past things where people said, no, we don't need, we don't need that. We don't need anybody to develop content for the CEO. They just do their own thing. think well you know, and they're doing a disservice to their people because there's no transparency to what it is that they do. So yeah that's, uh, and, and those are the things that you go well, okay, then if you don't need us, you don't need us.
00:09:56
Speaker
I was really curious about, you know, where does your work fit? And given what you were just saying, I think,
00:10:09
Speaker
It's not as simple as straddling, you know, a line between marketing and communications. But also I had wondered coming into this, how much a client or even you might think about your work as not necessarily being marketing or communications or something else, but maybe something like leadership, because communications and storytelling is a big part of leadership.
00:10:35
Speaker
It is that I have clients who work in leadership and it's really not what we do. Although there have been plenty of conversations where I've had with leaders where I've said,
00:10:46
Speaker
hearing what you just said, i you are you sure the audience wants to hear that? um And breaking it apart for them and from the standpoint of somebody who's listening to them and not inside their own head and helping them think about it in a way that now it's communication. It's a thought. It's not communication yet, but it's on its way. Let's make sure that it's the right kind of communication. So in that way, I guess I get a little bit involved in it.
00:11:14
Speaker
One of my favorite moments, I had a friend who connected me with a ah guy who had a corporate communication, very successful corporate communications company.
00:11:25
Speaker
And the he said, tell me what you do. And I described kind of basically what I'm saying to you, to him. And he said, oh, well, you do the hard part.
00:11:39
Speaker
And I thought, okay, great. And what good is that to me? Because it's cocky to say it like, well, we do the hard part, other people can't do it, which is pointless and silly to bring up and hard to market.
00:11:55
Speaker
And And not everybody wants the hard part. And I had a conversation with somebody who's just starting out in a small one-person agency for now. She was curious about some of my thoughts about it. And I just said, you don't need a lot of clients are huge clients. You just need people who come to you and trust you. And so the challenge is not to market yourself like crazy. you have to Find those people.
00:12:25
Speaker
Find your people. And they'll refer you to their people and that'll help you grow. um And if you get to a certain size, it becomes a different marketing exercise. But But we did, we realized if we traditionally tried to market ourselves that it wouldn't have worked because it turns into a conversation about, well, you do this, but you don't do that.
00:12:49
Speaker
and But you don't do do, you don't do full event production. No, we fit into a place between here and here. can't you just hire an event company then? Yeah, they don't have that.
00:13:01
Speaker
People usually don't. um ab but Do we need it? i think you do, but some people think you don't. and And it becomes that sort of, you know, ineffective moment of stonewalling that feels like, okay, well, let us know, you know, how it goes. And if you need help in the future, we're around.
00:13:21
Speaker
You know, I might be wrong here, but as you're saying this, I'm thinking about the difficulty of outbound sales or, you know, really push marketing, traditional advertising, digital advertising, whatever, when you either need to be able to differentiate yourself from marketing similar products or services, or you really truly do have something new and different because in this probably in a way that I was not thinking about comes back around to issues of storytelling and communications generally. But, you know, at times you need to leverage the audience members existing mental model or their understanding of the world and meet them where they are so that then you can
00:14:16
Speaker
I guess, earn the right perhaps to open their eyes to, well, you are a new or different thing. And so when you said referrals, then i was thinking, okay, that at that point, I suspect that you know, people, birds of a feather flock together, sort of, you know, and so if you have a client, doesn't matter what their role is, CEO or otherwise, who gets it, so to speak, then they probably have some people who also are likely to get it and may also have a similar need, regardless of whether you fit into certain categories or labels.
00:15:00
Speaker
Yeah. And I don't know that I'd use the phrase get it because it's really, a I know that in an effective moment with a client that I just make their lives easier and I help them make what they're trying to do a little better or a lot better depending on what it is we're doing.
00:15:20
Speaker
And that I think that they're the ones who, ah oh, this took a load off of me. It's something that I don't normally do. And it was a lot easier. and And my wife, who, you know, helps people be their very best in any communication scenario, same thing. They're more comfortable.
00:15:40
Speaker
They don't, you know, it's it's they they know how to to work with their very human, you know, nervousness or trepidation or whatever people go through when they're in a meeting with people or if they're on a stage.
00:15:57
Speaker
And if we can make their lives easier and make the communication better, than then i think that's when we get referred on to somebody else. Because it's, it's a I mean, it's it's really the same way you work with anybody. You know, if you think about the people that you do business with, I go to that guy for my car repair because he's fair and he's good and he's fast, you know, and they're and they're nice people when you when you see them. And all those things matter, and I kind of look at it that way, that we just, we we meet it where they are. We make incremental progress with the effectiveness of their communication.
00:16:37
Speaker
Sometimes it's not incremental. Sometimes ah it's it's a big move. Sometimes it's not. But it always, I mean, we can always get better, even if we're really, really good at it. We can always improve.
00:16:48
Speaker
So we know there's always room. You know, when you meet a new CEO, for example, or or larger company, and you are going to be working with them on that, I 67 second explainer video or a conference presentation or whatever it is that you're working with them on.
00:17:11
Speaker
What do you look for in their style or their communication, you know, their their affect or their presentation or language, whatever else?
00:17:22
Speaker
And when you do look for those things, you know, how does that impact what you might or might not accomplish with them? Well, we go in knowing our its fingerprints are all unique, you know, and everybody's all everybody's unique. you know we have lots of similarities. We share human psychology. There's a lot of similar things that we do that make us all the same, and yet each of us is is individually different.
00:17:54
Speaker
And we just, we love people. Like, we're the kind of people if we go on a vacation or even on a job, we talk about the people we met. Not, you know, wasn't that a beautiful place to be?
00:18:05
Speaker
um And so it's, I'm just always interested to know what perspective that this person is coming from and what it is that, what do they want to improve? um What lights them up?
00:18:21
Speaker
um You know, one guy one of my favorite ah CEO relationships He would just book two and a half hours of my time.
00:18:32
Speaker
I'd turn on my phone recorder, and he'd pace around the room and just spill everything. Frustrations, desires, the needs, of the wants, what this, and that was a particular conference. what he needed, what he needed from his people, what he needed from the attendees, everything just... hoa And invariably, by the end, we had a nice, simpatico kind of working relationship. Invariably, by the end of the about two hours...
00:19:01
Speaker
I would say it sounds like these things this is where we're headed and and if this works it'd be great and uh and that it sounds like underlying it is this story that's causing tension and you know and and at that point he would either say and both are great yes let's continue from here or no because and some new element comes in that I haven't heard yet um and then fills in the picture even more it's like Sometimes, and if you ever have chat GPT, draw something for you. you know It's like waiting while it's just a blurry mess. you know and was it Is it going to come out and be what I want it to be? And in that, I kind of thrive in that blurry mess.
00:19:47
Speaker
um Because I know at the very basis of it, there's a human being who wants to accomplish something. And every great story...
00:20:01
Speaker
is that's what it's about. And in that desire and need and movement toward what it is we desire or want or need to achieve are all the things that make great stories, challenges and comedy and drama and falling down and picking yourself up. And, you know, and there's always a climactic moment and there's always a denouement that, you know, fades off toward ah the next episode or whatever. um Because we're humans. That's what we do. So when I remember that, it helped me just keep my mouth shut in and listen for all the elements of the story. Because putting them in the order, that's in our DNA. Not all of us do it or want to do it, but I love doing it. Yeah.
00:20:50
Speaker
Is there a process that you typically follow to either identify the story or to improve it? Or are there frameworks or I guess processes and frameworks might be the best way for me to phrase this at the moment.
00:21:10
Speaker
Are there processes or frameworks that you typically lean on? but Well, this is the hard part ah in some ways because um everybody's different. So...
00:21:22
Speaker
Sometimes it's, you know, if it's a a leader who puts one of his people on it, there's another filter. There's still a story, but it's kind of once removed from that main character if if that person's going to be putting out that communication.
00:21:43
Speaker
not to find my way through the filter or even around the filter, but, you know, bring the filter. You know, let's let's find out all of the this perspective and then let's take that understanding and I guess understanding is a good way to say it. Like, I understand what what you need and what you want and what everything is and how does that align with what your leadership is trying to do.
00:22:12
Speaker
And generally, people are willing to share that. And and so the framework really... And I think when you said we try to talk about we're new and different, we're not. We're old and different. It's like, have a human conversation. Just talk about it. And we're all you know we're always under ah and NDA because even if we haven't signed one, you know we'd be idiots to go out and say, I had a meeting with so-and-so company today.
00:22:39
Speaker
Um, so all of it is, it's confidential. Just tell us what you need because our goal is to make it easier to achieve that. So, um, so the framework really is let's sit down talk about it.
00:22:53
Speaker
are there ways that you generally put together a story, you know, something like the hero's journey or, you know, in advertising or sales or whatever you have, AIDA or talking about what's in it for me or something else of that nature? Are you a, either a fan of certain messaging models or frameworks or is there something you've, you know, patched together yourself?
00:23:23
Speaker
there's always going to be overlap with the systems that people have come up with because we're human beings and it's the same kind of pathway we're trying to get to.
00:23:35
Speaker
i just look at those systems as a shortcut or a mnemonic to remember what I need to get to. And I don't, i I find I can find all that out just having a human conversation. And if I don't structure it first, don't,
00:23:52
Speaker
then there's, to me, a possibility of more discovery. So i i want it to I don't want to get into answer these questions three.
00:24:04
Speaker
You know, i want to get into... It's like you started out, like, where do you find yourself today? It could be about anything. Let's just start having a conversation. We know why we're here.
00:24:17
Speaker
We're intelligent people. Let's just explore it from dead on and then start swinging the camera around and looking at from different perspectives. So I don't...
00:24:30
Speaker
And again, that makes it hard to market. um But I just haven't had success with those systems. And in some ways, we're kind of like my wife and business partner and bosses coaching business. um When people would say, well what is the system? And the system is that she works with you to help you be better. um And people would say to us afterwards, well, you're not.
00:24:56
Speaker
You know, I took a thing from so-and-so and it was based on traversing an arc back and forth on the stage and all these things that had nothing to do with, you know, I worked with a guy who made $10,000 a day coaching executives all around the world.
00:25:17
Speaker
And it was ah horrible to watch because he was working with somebody who spoke English as a second language and basically trying to make him act like an American. it was some years ago, so it wouldn't happen. Hopefully wouldn't happen today. But ah afterwards, he decided that the guy couldn't do the keynote.
00:25:37
Speaker
It was major, giant Las Vegas keynote. Couldn't do it. And my portion of the show, I wrote a play that he was in um that was in the middle of his keynote where we had a family, they were actors, one guy was a celebrity, came in And I wrote and directed the play.
00:25:57
Speaker
And he came out after his little keynote rehearsal and said, he won't be able to do the play. He can't, he there's no way he can pull this off. and And the guy came to me, the major global CEO, and he goes,
00:26:12
Speaker
Ken, I don't understand why what he's saying to me. And I said, just be yourself. You clearly have a really big track record of success. Just be you.
00:26:26
Speaker
I wrote it for you after having two or three conversations. Just be you. And i think a lot of times that's what people need is permission to just be themselves.
00:26:37
Speaker
But if you go in saying, here's our system, you have permission to be yourself, we kind of sound silly. What has been the trajectory or the path of your career? Because, you know, you didn't start out with this business. So were you doing that voiceover work and were you acting or whatever else for some portion of your career before beginning this work?
00:27:02
Speaker
Always writing for other people and for myself. And when you say writing... writing you know emails writing writing uh writing for projects like um you know i had one client i wrote a lot of radio for somebody i wrote a lot of tv for i did write a book um songs um songs for me songs for clients played in bands um Wrote jingles, just about everything poetry.
00:27:38
Speaker
um Two short films. One went to Sundance, ah written in iambic pentameter, ah like Shakespeare did. um And, you know, about a year of Hollywood craziness and wrote screenplays.
00:27:53
Speaker
So I've written just about everything imaginable. And earlier when I was younger, I was doing more, doing a lot of voiceover work and a lot of acting for, ah TV commercials and for corporate videos. So I was telling stories someone else wrote and helping to make them more believable and, and better. And, uh,
00:28:18
Speaker
collaborating with the directors and that kind of thing. So I feel like it's almost the same thing, but, um, that I'm doing now, except I'm the one writing them. And, and it pays off because I, I wrote some videos for,
00:28:34
Speaker
a couple of bigger companies few years ago, and then I'd read them the script. And I'm just, I'm going to read it to you because you're not you're not going to experience it on a page. So close your eyes. I'll describe what the visuals are, and I'll read it to you. And then I'd read it, and then they'd go, well, I really like your voice. Can you voice it too? And I'd go, sure. you don't I'd change the offer to go, I'll write it and produce it and voice it for you so that um it's all packaged as one price instead of saying, yes, that'll cost you extra.
00:29:03
Speaker
Um, but it's, it was all, it all kind of felt the same to me. I realized a few years ago, oh, I've just been, I've been telling stories in whatever form, 30 seconds to however long, of course I did plays too, um And I told from, so I know what it feels like to tell them, but I also know what it feels like to, them once I started directing, I know what it felt like to do it so I could help direct it and learn about all the pieces so I could help oversee. You know, I i was a creative director for a few years for big events because I could do all the jobs.
00:29:43
Speaker
And I thought, well I've never done all the jobs at once. um I'll do that. So, um but yeah, it it really informed. What we, how MessageGlue came about it was after near-death extravaganza, is what I call it. and And my wife and I just said, you know, let's just take a look at what we've been doing and what we want to do and create a company where... We get to spend as much time together as possible and and do what we really love and find people that we really love to work with.
00:30:19
Speaker
And that's really what drove 15 years ago starting MessageGlue. Well, now you said near-death extravaganza, so it sounds like the specifics might be different from some entrepreneurs, but it sounds like in the broad strokes that you had a similar motivation to a lot of entrepreneurs.
00:30:42
Speaker
You know, for me, for example, I just don't want a boss. And, you know, but there's also an aspect of it that can i do what i really want to do?
00:30:54
Speaker
and we could even bracket that and say, well, is this what you want to do in the moment or is it what you want to do as an accomplish in the long run or whatever else? But I'm just going to simply say, can I do what I want to do and still take care of my family?
00:31:10
Speaker
You know, and so it sounds to me like you had, again, broad strokes, similar motivations to a lot of entrepreneurs. Is that right?
00:31:22
Speaker
Yeah, guess in I mean, I had that I don't want a boss thing a long time ago, although I did It was more like, I don't want to i don't want one boss. like I want a whole bunch of project bosses.
00:31:36
Speaker
um I want the variety the the the variety pack of bosses. um And I'd been on my own for a long time. um Started a publishing company first for music.
00:31:49
Speaker
And so I'd kind of been used to that. I'd never really, it'd been so long since I worked for anybody that had always been subcontracting. And been pretty successful at it. And then it was really us saying, let's try to find...
00:32:09
Speaker
something that feeds this weird niche niche talent. We have um talents that we have together that allow us to to work together and and make a living doing this. And so it's, you know, I guess and in some ways, yeah, it's similar. And it also was a little more urgent because...
00:32:30
Speaker
um You know, was it but took me about eight months to recover from—it was just that H1N1 pandemic that killed 2% of the people. And I was apparently sitting on that fence that separated the 2% from the other people, and I almost fell backwards over into the 2% side. So— Um, barely survived it and, uh, took a long time to get back to normal. And then during that time, just having these conversations and going, okay, well, you know, how do we see, how can we have, you know, our life take care of our kid and be, um,
00:33:10
Speaker
And do something for fun. And do something meaningful kind of became the main thing. Like, I want relationships with people that are meaningful and and that we enjoy. and And we've been pretty successful at finding those people over the last 15 years, which is really nice.
00:33:29
Speaker
And some of them are really close friends now. Clients started out as clients, and which is really nice. Yeah. I wish you well at that. Anytime you want to throw some ideas around, I'm happy to to help. I love helping other people.
00:33:46
Speaker
As I did a few weeks ago, saying with this young woman who's starting her own agency, just thinking through all of the stuff that I've been through and and fallen on my face in, because I didn't plan it very well. I just kind of dived into the pool and went...
00:34:03
Speaker
Let's exploit my talents. I'm funny. I'll do stand-up comedy. I can play guitar. I'll sing in clubs. I can write. I'll get some clients. and i'll I'll be in a band. I'll write some songs. And let's see how it goes. you know I didn't have a real structure and didn't have a family at the time, so that probably helped.
00:34:22
Speaker
How long ago was this, the H1N1 and then founding your business? 15 years. it was right on the, basically, yeah, just as, as Message Glue, uh, was born from the ashes. Yeah.
00:34:36
Speaker
Right. Okay. And it does change, you know, I wrote a little book that, about the, well, friends said, you you write, you have to do something with this. And I went, I just want to get better.
00:34:51
Speaker
But I did end up finally just kind of writing a fable. um Because it's, ultimately, you end up in a carpe diem kind of place if you come out of it with any kind of a positive attitude.
00:35:04
Speaker
And so I did write about my book's called blip. It's basically about how very, very, very short, um, our lives are when you compare them to the life of the earth, because the earth will,
00:35:21
Speaker
You know, it's got a 6 billion year lifespan and we're at about 4.5 billion. So basically the Earth is 75 years old if you think about it. um and But taking that number and the the the percentage of...
00:35:38
Speaker
time of that that we live is a really funny number it's like 0.000000 you know 213 percent of the life of the earth and that amused me at the time and so i was trying to do something with it and it ended up being a fable the first half is about the court history of the world and and the way we behaved through it. And then the second half is a random kid being born who does the math and goes, huh, that's not a very long time.
00:36:14
Speaker
So it's a fun little tiny, and it only takes 20 minutes to read because, as I like to say, if you're going to write a book about how short life is, it shouldn't eat up a bunch of your life to read it. That would be disingenuous.
00:36:26
Speaker
Has there been an evolution of your business then in this time? Because it sounds to me like while there is a there's an essence to your work or there's a through line, the through line feels much too clear or specific.
00:36:47
Speaker
You know, there, there is an idea you what you are what your work is, who you are, all of that, that it feels to me has been there throughout your career or your life potentially.
00:37:02
Speaker
But I'm guessing in trying to find, you know, what people are willing to pay for, basically, that there must have been a journey that your business has gone on.
00:37:14
Speaker
Yeah, we tried to fit into normal, you know, that's a creative director role or writer role or speaker coach role we, you know, and so that's definitely evolved. we're We're really in a place because we also now, my wife's side of the business is a a lot of content producing content.
00:37:35
Speaker
for events, organizing, not only helping people with content and shaping it, but organizing everybody too and kind of stage managing all of the players so that everything gets done on time at the same time. um But I think if you look back on how those...
00:37:57
Speaker
you know we're still in some ways it's just exploiting the talents that we have. And in another way, we're just back to our regular old value proposition of we make it better. We make the communication better. We make the experience better. We make the process better or more comfortable. Maybe better is not the right word. Maybe that's too arrogant, but we make we make the communication more effective. we We help make the experience more comfortable and more enjoyable and, um, and that's, those are the people that we keep coming back to working with over and over again because they're like, oh, they'll be,
00:38:36
Speaker
They'll be fun. Because there's an element in that communication business, especially the event side of a little bit of theater. lot of people that worked in theater move over because there's more money to be made in events. And so there's a sense of, I want it to also be fun.
00:38:55
Speaker
And after near-death experiences, like, I want it to be meaningful and I want it to be fun. Yeah. i want it to I want it to matter because, you know, I don't have a ton of time to for things that don't matter.
00:39:10
Speaker
in All of the work that you do given that you've been doing this, you were doing it, or at least in the form of message glue, you were doing it well before COVID, you know, pandemic times.
00:39:24
Speaker
Have you noticed any difference in the way that people pay attention or listen to or otherwise receive the messages or communications that you work on?
00:39:37
Speaker
Well, I mean, what's different, what was big different at the time was virtual events. um And now afterwards, you know, yearning to get back to live, but also understanding that a virtual aspect of it is also important, especially for companies that have people spread all over the world.
00:40:02
Speaker
So there's been an evolution in how things get delivered and and And we have tons of ideas that at the when it first started, we thought, oh, this medium, there's so much you can do with it. and And talked about it. And at the time, the clients we were working with weren't really ready. It was just like, I hate being on camera, um you know, um and it wasn't.
00:40:28
Speaker
I want to be on stage. I want to do it the way I've always done it. I don't like this. And, and now it's evolved at a little more to be accepted and looked at more like, you know, television production really. And,
00:40:46
Speaker
And I always see, we always tell people, you, your people, you know, your, this is my laptop that I'm shaking on right now. We consume so much rich media on our laptops, whether it's YouTube or television or movies or whatever,
00:41:09
Speaker
that is compelling and really great storytelling and, um, some cases really great acting. um but compelling stuff that draws us in. And when you slap somebody, you know, up on a screen and they're a tiny square talking and there's a giant slide with 15 bullets on it, you know,
00:41:35
Speaker
who Who wants to watch it? It doesn't matter what's being said or how important it is. We've been conditioned. i used to always say to you know to clients, too, we have this in our hand all the time. It's full of rich media experiences. We have to give our people...
00:41:54
Speaker
A sense that we get that. We get what they look at all the time. And and that's all we that's a budget thing sometimes, but also a sensibility thing. Because the tools tend to be PowerPoint and, you know, i think on my screen talking to you, I'm this big, but you're a little bigger.
00:42:16
Speaker
As we talk through these things and I've been on and helped with content on zoom events where, you know, the slide is the whole screen and there's a tiny square and you can't really see the person and it's the human that matters, you know, it's, um, and if you're going to have that slide there, then let's have,
00:42:36
Speaker
movement let's have ah you know let's progress the story in the image that's sitting there and taking our attention or trying to take our attention so and the short answer is that was obviously the long answer the short answer is yes it's evolved but i think it has a long way to go because there's so much potential You're reminding me of, think it was Marshall McLuhan who said that first we define our systems or tools or whatever, and then they define us.
00:43:08
Speaker
Does that sound familiar? That does sound familiar. It sort sounds me like you are at least touching on that, that, you know, the large slide might be easy, common, whatever, however I might want to describe it, but that there are times when that's not really appropriate for whatever your goals happen to be client. is that right?
00:43:37
Speaker
And it started as basically, you know, Back in the day, you know, there was note cards that people would stand on stage with and read their speech and flip their note cards, you know, as they talk through it.
00:43:52
Speaker
And companies then had PowerPoint. And I remember one company, it was a pretty big pretty big deal because they'd reached this ah quite a large revenue milestone.
00:44:07
Speaker
And the speaker was out there for about 20 minutes. And the slide had lots of colors and things on it, but it had basically everything he was talking about. And he talked through it one section by section, section, da-da-da-da. And at the bottom, you know, revealed the number that had been there for the last 20 minutes.
00:44:30
Speaker
And no one applauded. And afterwards, he was really angry. goes, what the hell? And go, okay. We need to talk about a reveal. we need to talk about theatrical devices that you are not using that could really make it more fun. you know, timing, rhythm, reveal, all the things that make schtick funny and make communication meaningful and have been around.
00:44:56
Speaker
Humans have been using them since we had drawn cave walls. um' You know, cover it with an animal skin and go, blah, blah. I found a river, you know, and everybody goes, oh great. Um, all of that has been around forever. And, and then we don't, for some reason, use it to our advantage. And, um, and I'm not great at,
00:45:19
Speaker
understanding that when I'm sitting in a room with people like, you know what you could do? And, uh, and I get a lot of eyes rolling, like, you know, well, that's going to require that we rehearse.
00:45:31
Speaker
Our CEO doesn't have time, you know, and you go, well, okay. We, we try to make it better. We know how to make it better. And, and we will,
00:45:45
Speaker
We will say it and hope sometimes it works. How much do you find that just good communication, whatever the medium is or whatever the goal is, that people not executing or delivering upon that is due to them just not doing the things that they already know versus not being aware?
00:46:12
Speaker
that, you know, for me, for example, i knew that I used to say the word, um, a lot when I was speaking extemporaneously.
00:46:23
Speaker
And I was aware of it People had told me it never really bothered me because I knew that when I had something prepared, I didn't use very many filler words like that.
00:46:37
Speaker
But then when I started recording, it did really start to bother me. So I was aware of it. In the moment, I didn't really notice it, but I still chose not to work on it. So then I would go to a conference or whatever else.
00:46:53
Speaker
And if I got off script, then I'm sure it came in quite a bit. And maybe that bothered my audience. Maybe it didn't. But that's just an example of how much is it that people aren't aware of how they're showing up, whether it's in how they write or they're speaking, their PowerPoint slide design.
00:47:15
Speaker
And they're aware of it. They're aware or they're not aware. And when they are aware, they're just choosing not to do the work. That's certainly part of it. And I think part of it too is that there's so many pressure on the people that help the people that go on stage.
00:47:30
Speaker
And if the people and that are going on stage won't rehearse or they're too busy or there are too many crucial things they need to deal with, then these people have to protect them so that their time isn't impinged upon. And so then you don't get a lot of Growth or improvement in how they, that's one aspect of it. Another aspect of it is it doesn't matter to us if you say, um, or, you know, or the things that people say, these are human things that we do when we communicate.
00:48:02
Speaker
If you're on stage or you're on camera, there's a certain amount of self-consciousness that's going to come in And it's really at that point, i we just say, just embrace who you are.
00:48:16
Speaker
If you pull yourself out of what you're trying to say to worry about your gestures or your ums or your you knows or your and stuffs, now you're not thinking about what you're trying to say.
00:48:29
Speaker
So, you know, that's what my wife teaches always that, you know, just if you are thoughtful about what you are communicating, then we will believe that and we will listen to you.
00:48:43
Speaker
And it's really that simple. That's the great actors are focused and thoughtful and we want to know, we want to see what's in their heads and watch them do the thing they do.
00:48:56
Speaker
And when there's some self-consciousness or weirdness about it or I'm afraid to take a drink of water because, you know, I was told only take a drink of water after 10 minutes, we were completely pulled out of being a person who's trying to communicate.
00:49:11
Speaker
And that's one of the downsides of having rules for things that humans do. Because what works for this guy does not work for this person. And so I, yeah, I would i wouldn't worry about your ums, is basically the gist of that.
00:49:31
Speaker
Well, I think at the same time, though, you know, some people will say that you haven't really learned to speak a language until you've learned and the equivalent of a. So, you know, in English, you're thinking, you say um or r or whatever when you have to, you're speaking and then you have to think for a second.
00:49:54
Speaker
And so I got my master's in German, lived in Germany. My German was very good. Except that I never worked on my American accent.
00:50:10
Speaker
But even thinking about that, while my German was very good, sure, I made plenty of mistakes. I never really got to the point where I could do the equivalent of that. You know, I always thought about what I was saying.
00:50:30
Speaker
Now, I was fluent. It was natural to me. But there was a split second where my sentence was put together before I spoke.
00:50:41
Speaker
And but it was so fast that to me it felt completely natural, just like speaking English. And, you know, when i remember one time that someone was telling me, you know, well, just to speak more fluently, really for you, Eric, you need to work on your accent, but you also just need to speak faster.
00:51:03
Speaker
And it was really hard. This has come up in several conversations recently. So it's on my mind. It was really hard to explain to this person. That's how I speak in English.
00:51:14
Speaker
I take a split second to think about what I'm going to say. And as a result, they it might feel to you like there's a lack of flow or not spontaneous or whatever it is.
00:51:29
Speaker
But for me, that also gives me a better shot of you know, saying what I want to say. And I, and so part of how I'm thinking about that for us, you know, let's go with a presentation of some sort, and though, as we've talked about, you work in other media
00:51:55
Speaker
If somebody really wants to become a keynote speaker, then there are probably certain things that, you know, this or that is getting in the way of you effectively telling your story or convincing people or whatever. And I'm not saying that universally you cannot use filler words or pause or whatever. I i really don't think that there is a that there is a model.
00:52:22
Speaker
that everyone can follow to become a paid keynote speaker. But at the same time, you certainly look at people and say, we could make that better. And if part of making it better was your CEO client has not figured out how to naturally use a or um,
00:52:46
Speaker
And instead, you know, while while while accomplishing their goal, then they kind of, I realize it's not exactly binary, but sort of, they have this binary choice of, well, just keep doing what you're doing and it could be better, but it's not, you know, or work at it.
00:53:08
Speaker
And then all of those things that are might otherwise be distractions from effectively communicating this message or whatever it is, those will feel so natural to the audience that it's no longer a distraction. It's part of that communication.
00:53:29
Speaker
as we say in improv, yes, and ah and i would I'd swing the camera back around inside, looking out from your eyes and not worry about any of that because you're thoughtful, so you're communicating well. You paused. I made myself listen to whether you paused while you were just laying that out to me just now. And yeah, you did a couple of times, but that isn't, it wasn't distracting because i was listening to what you had to say and I was interested in what you had to say.
00:54:02
Speaker
And I would say to, you know, a person who thinks you need to speak faster or slower or less ums or, you know, to go to say to that person, You need to listen to this human being communicate to you instead of trying to make them a different person in your mind. Cause now you're not listening.
00:54:22
Speaker
Said I'm 42 times. Yeah. What was my speech about? don't know. You know, you're, excuse me. It's, um, and we see that a lot with, uh, you know, work for a lot of global companies and,
00:54:38
Speaker
And when you're in the trenches with somebody, like especially, uh, um, introverted speakers from other countries who've been told how they need to be loud or they need more energy or ah all of these. And where those comments are usually coming from, and one of the ones he worked with, this guy was unbelievably brilliant.
00:55:02
Speaker
And he was from a country where his boss is from the Midwest and he was an ex-jock and he needed him to be in better shape. He needed him to be more aggressive. He needed him to stand up and to challenge people. And he needed to you know, he kept saying all the, he basically needed him to be a different person.
00:55:24
Speaker
And he goes, he's really smart. He knows his stuff. And we worked with him for about a month. And, uh, he was so happy. i remember when told him, just be yourself.
00:55:40
Speaker
Ignore his perspective that you can never meet because you're not an ex-football jock from the Midwest. Just be you and be comfortable being you. Big change in that guy, I noticed, you know.
00:55:54
Speaker
and And it's incumbent upon, I always want to just go right to the manager and say, listen to that person. Because yes, their rhythms are different. Yes, their accent might be a little thicker than you want it to be. And it might be hard for you to understand them. So listen harder.
00:56:12
Speaker
And, you know, there's a reason that person is with your company. Listen to them a little more with a little more effort and with a wider perspective and get a sense of where they're coming from.
00:56:24
Speaker
And the meaning will be clear. You know, I used to joke about my, have you ever heard that thing where if you're, some constellations, they say if you look at them, you can't see them. Like Cassiopeia is one of those that you kind of know where it is, but then you look to the side a little bit.
00:56:42
Speaker
And the guy that did tech work on computers that I worked with, and he, I'm not sure where he was from, super heavy, heavy accent.
00:56:53
Speaker
And I thought, oh, man, I'm not going to be able to understand him. And then one day I thought, oh, wait a minute, maybe it's like that star thing. if I just listen off to the side, like I don't try to hear individual words, I just take it in slightly skewed off to the left or the right.
00:57:12
Speaker
And then I could, then everything was clear. And I thought, oh, and so I have a sensibility or ah a sensitiveness to that because I, I just want to say, you know, I know people are under pressure. I know that they have stuff from their boss. But in a moment with another human being, you got to remember, that person isn't me.
00:57:31
Speaker
i I need to take a moment and let them be them. And it makes for more meaningful, I think, communication. One-to-one and in meetings and certainly on stage and Well, yeah, that and that was exactly what I was thinking, is that as soon as you get in front of people, you know, the, think this came up in a Seinfeld episode and some of his stand-up, but it's, you know, based on studies or whatever that, know, but the way that Seinfeld put it in one of his episodes of his show is that... I saw a thing, actually, a study that said speaking in front of a crowd is considered the number one fear of the average person.
00:58:13
Speaker
I found that amazing. Number two was death.
00:58:19
Speaker
Death was number two. This means to the average person, if you have to be at a funeral, you would rather be in the casket than doing the eulogy. And so it doesn't really matter for a lot of people if you're speaking in front of four other people or if it's 4,000 other people that, you know,
00:58:39
Speaker
Yes, i I do think that there are lots of things that I suspect you would look for well, what are you really trying to accomplish? And does that need to be a 60-minute talk or a five-minute talk or who knows what? Does it need slides or does it not need slides? How's the lighting? I don't know what. But maybe one of the big things is is the person thinking about the fact that they're giving a talk and they're on stage and that's what they're thinking about and they're not thinking about you know, they know their stuff. This guy who's really brilliant, does he just, does he know his stuff? Or if you're, you know, a struggle on a podcast is not performing for the audience, but rather having a conversation.
00:59:24
Speaker
And can you, I would say, and I would love for you to tell me if you think differently, one way that I would put it is, can you you know, stop trying to perform and just talk about the thing or just be who you are. And then if you can do that, the cadence of your speech, the PowerPoint slides, the lighting, whatever else that will mostly come after.
00:59:55
Speaker
Yeah, I wouldn't say stop trying to perform, because that is a tough command to follow. I would say just be thoughtful about what you're saying, just like you are anytime.
01:00:11
Speaker
I'm working with some executives. that This is one of my favorite case studies ever, because I did an experiment— And i want it was kind of for me a little bit, but also I knew it made the speaker really comfortable. But the same thing, he needed more energy. um he needed to really rile these people up. And his boss wrote his speech in all caps, and he was supposed to read it And I'm not a designer, so I can remember serif, sans serif, I think it was block letters. So in bold type, capitalized, it's like a magic picture book where you start seeing shapes. It's hard to discern individual words.
01:00:55
Speaker
And he goes, well, there's a speech I have to give. And I said, okay, well, let's hear it. And he goes, and he started to do it. And he was so introverted and so low-key. And I said, what's our goal?
01:01:06
Speaker
And he said, the goal is for everybody to get excited about this new offer. I said, okay. And so we didn't change any of the words because his boss wouldn't let him.
01:01:18
Speaker
So I said, can you change your intro just a little bit, do you think? And he goes, yeah, let's do it. I just don't tell him. So he said, hi everybody. I'm here to tell you about a really super exciting edition that we have to our portfolio.
01:01:36
Speaker
And um for those of you who know me already, you know that this is me, very excited. And for those of you who don't know me, this is me, very excited." Deerge laughed, and everything after that was all information about the thing.
01:01:59
Speaker
And he was so happy, because it let him be himself. with a little bit of comedy writing in it. But, you know, those are the other things we have in our quiver is the, you know, the theatrical devices that have worked forever.
01:02:17
Speaker
um So, pull those out and insert them where they don't impinge upon the the who that person is. Somebody else giving that speech...
01:02:29
Speaker
wouldn't worked, but he had to, and that's who he was. And so we, you know, and, and that's the, he was thoughtful about all of it.
01:02:40
Speaker
And that was his version of thoughtful. And just by being able to be his version of himself, boom, success. And so i even, I kind of, you know, bristle a little bit about, you know, a keynote speaker has to learn this, this, this, and this. And, there are going to be tons of people in somebody's ear over time at presentations. And, and, you know, my advice is don't, don't listen to them. Just be you, be thoughtful and be you. And you're going to be fine.
01:03:11
Speaker
And one guy would always go like this on stage. I just, I just love everybody in here. I, you, and it, and the audio guys, Hey, don't hate your laugh.
01:03:25
Speaker
And,
01:03:28
Speaker
And he goes, oh sorry. You know, and he goes, and you can't put your hands up there. And he turned looked at me and his said, Don't listen to that. do Hit your mic.
01:03:39
Speaker
that's That's how you express this enthusiasm. So what? Boom, boom. Drop your mic on the stage. I don't, you know, that's a $100, $200 microphone. You know, everyone's, belief you're going to feel it in the room.
01:03:53
Speaker
You know, but some guy yelling at you is, then now he's self-conscious about every gesture that he's going to make, you know, and I just think, oh, wow. you be quiet but unsound run run sound because you're great at it you know make sure everything he says is clear and you know just have your hand on the fader if he starts gesturing wildly so you can lower the impact but let's work with who he is he's not on stage all the time um and yeah so these are the things over time where you just get
01:04:25
Speaker
You know, i i I don't miss being in the room because some things that I just write for and I don't go do ah or or I'm working with clients on individual writing things. And I don't always miss being in the room because there's a theatrical spidey sense. I talk about this with my wife where because of our training, you can feel something's wrong in the room.
01:04:51
Speaker
And I don't always know exactly what it is right away, but you just walk in and go, and so I don't, I don't always miss up. If I'm not on something, I'm like, oh good. I don't have to get an ulcer on that one.
01:05:06
Speaker
I'm really curious. i don't I don't know. Well, I don't know if this ties in exactly, but I'm really curious about not just one-way transmission of information, but also i forget if you said your wife does more of this or if you do more of it, but how much you get involved in helping people, teaching people to listen rather than to just wait for an opportunity to speak.
01:05:41
Speaker
and for the sake of of completeness, I guess, I will say, I imagine that this can show up not just in a one-on-one conversation or presenting on stage and dealing with Q&A, but probably also you mentioned, you know, Slack messages or whatever it was.
01:06:05
Speaker
There's probably also an aspect of this that some of the feedback that an individual or a company might get might be asynchronous. But there must, seems to me, still be an aspect of your work or your wife's work or both where in order to make that communication better, you have to work with them on listening and not just waiting for that chance to speak.
01:06:33
Speaker
And it's, yeah, it's, I mean, everybody has a connection to it. There are certain things like,
01:06:42
Speaker
that come from training, but we all have human relationships. We all know how to listen. um And if we start at knowing that, then, and we do cross over into this sometimes, it's mostly when there's a panel um thing, or if there's a presenter who introduces another one and they have little bit of banter and then the one leaves. um And it's uncomfortable...
01:07:12
Speaker
because they don't really know how to be in that space and not be doing something. Without the training that we've had, we're perfectly comfortable being quiet on stage. In fact, it's a huge part of acting to be still and to be listened. but But if you're self-conscious at all, then it's weird to be standing on stage while someone else talks.
01:07:33
Speaker
And there's so many aspects to what makes a panel work. But that's a big one is to say, you know,
01:07:43
Speaker
stage-wise and, you know, theatrically speaking, if I turn and look at the person speaking, then if the audience looks at me, i throw their focus to the person who's talking. And we at in theater is called throwing focus.
01:07:57
Speaker
And then i look at the monitor or the moderator when they are talking or whatever it is. And then if everybody does that,
01:08:09
Speaker
then the audience knows who to look at. So that's a big thing there. And then, and whether or not you're going, okay, I need to be ready to talk about semiconductors as soon as Joanne is done saying what she's saying, I'm still throwing focus to her, even though I might have a little bit of mental turmoil until the moderator goes, Ken, tell us about the semiconductors. And then, oh oh, this is the part I know and I can be thoughtful about. And I know everybody's throwing focus at me.
01:08:38
Speaker
But if you don't have any of that training, some people feel like, oh, I'm uncomfortable sitting like this. and i you know And then they do something different, like mess with their shoe. or And that it steals focus.
01:08:52
Speaker
And so you can have that conversation to say, here are ways to help people. each other be more successful by just helping the audience know where to look, whether you're listening to them or not.
01:09:05
Speaker
But it'd be great if you were, because it's always more effective to say, before I say something about Semiconductor Choyan, the idea that we're going to be able to make all of them in Pennsylvania as a result of what you've been doing is just huge. And...
01:09:24
Speaker
Then the audience is like, oh, these people have some sort of chemistry. So there's lots of ways that we interpret what's happening on stage um beyond just knowing how to listen.
01:09:37
Speaker
You know, and then you get into with panels where and there was a, for a while I thought we'd have to always say, if you can give a one word answer,
01:09:51
Speaker
then that'd be cool. Because it's like, whoa, you've asked me in my question now and I get to pontificate. And I remember a CEO one time, somebody goes, do we because of the thing and we're doing, are we going to do it? No, no, no.
01:10:06
Speaker
And goes, no. Huge laugh, huge physical reset of the room where the energy is different in there now because everybody reacted to something at the exact same moment, which is another theatrical piece of of basically a reveal, but it came on a joke like the money before that I talked about. If he'd revealed that and everyone saw it at the same time, they would have applauded.
01:10:32
Speaker
Because we if we experience it all at once and it's something we're happy about, that's what drives standing ovations. You know, there are ways that we can manipulate for the good of all using, you know, theatrical devices to our advantage.
01:10:51
Speaker
So, and and so panels, I mean, there's always something you can do to help an audience and to help the people on stage. Stay connected.
01:11:03
Speaker
Even if you know that that COO who has to talk next is not thinking about what's happening on, at least he's throwing focus. Coming into this conversation, my idea of your work was that you, not exclusively, but predominantly, do things like write talks and or produce some aspects of events. I recall in a prior conversation, you talking about developing a presentation as in the, you know, the visuals, the PowerPoint or whatever it was.
01:11:45
Speaker
And I might have thought other things I don't recall, but early in now this conversation, you expanded my understanding of that a bit.
01:11:58
Speaker
And so Some of what I'm wondering now is if somebody, you know, who, who would call you? What kind of situation would someone be in? What's their job to be done that somebody could listen to you and me and say, you know, maybe i could use that.
01:12:24
Speaker
It's usually off something known. It's usually off one of the things you named or that somebody goes, oh, I need a writer or, umm you know, one of the things that a client said a few years ago was like, I really like that you not only are helping us communicate, but you seem to really understand our business.
01:12:43
Speaker
And I got a call from somebody a while ago on a project who said, well, they need somebody who can write, but they also really need somebody who understands their business. And I had done a project for him before, so I like, oh, i understand their business. Oh, great. and i then So it it usually comes through something known, unless it's ah a referral where, you know, we hired him for this, and then they did this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and then, oh, great.
01:13:10
Speaker
You know, we can use all that's in that bag. But... Comes back to that, yeah, the who would call you the way that you phrase it, which was wonderful, which is basically it. Why would I call you?
01:13:23
Speaker
i'm and it's,
01:13:28
Speaker
it changes you know, it changes with every referral. I had a client I talked to just a couple days ago who just said, i need this. um And I know I can,
01:13:42
Speaker
i I put a post on LinkedIn last week or so about these three cool varied projects that I did this year. ah One of them was the 67 second video and then some songs I wrote um for Microsoft. And then um I helped a client with his book, getting his book ready for publication and really editing chapter by chapter. And So I just posted, this is a really fun, varied kind of year, you know.
01:14:11
Speaker
And the guy who's i helped with the book just immediately posted, i use you for everything. It's like, whenever I need to bounce an idea off, I call you. and And those are probably certainly the most fun because then the person on the other end is open to...
01:14:31
Speaker
well, what do we want to do with it? You know, well, I have to give this keynote, but, and sometimes it's like, they're going to, somebody's going to write it for me. And if I, can I give it to you to look at it and just make sure it sounds like me, you know?
01:14:45
Speaker
So it's really, yeah I mean, once a relationship is made, then it's easy to, know that they can really, you know, come to us with anything. um And then hopefully if somebody's referring us, they can say the same thing.
01:15:03
Speaker
You know, just ask them. Do you have some sort of industry or vertical specialization or places where you excel? Or have you been able to, you know, succeed or make it work without being too focused in one area or another?
01:15:22
Speaker
I'll answer it this way. My job is to get that knowledge out of the head of the person who needs or the group that needs to communicate it or the company into the heads of their audience and the hearts of their audience in a way that makes them feel compelled to do business or partner or whatever it is that they're trying to achieve.
01:15:46
Speaker
The specifics of what they do is known to them. And I don't, I learn it through the process, but I don't necessarily need to know it ahead of time because that's again, I'll yank my camera back to the very, very edge of the theater. It's a human group of human beings who are trying to accomplish something. And that story is, that's what we do. That's what our great stories are made of. So it's not a murder mystery. In this case, it's ah you know it's a healthcare vertical that needs you know to expand into a new market or whatever it is. It's still at its very basic.
01:16:26
Speaker
They're just humans who are trying to make something happen. And there's a cast, you mentioned Seinfeld, you know, and the and that cast, you people talk about the magic of that ensemble.
01:16:41
Speaker
And then other shows where you go, I thought of it would go, but it never did. it didn't make it, you know. and um Sometimes the cast isn't right. The idea is great, but the cast isn't right. And um I asked a one client who ah was a ah larger company and their CEO was leaving and they knew who was going to take his place. And she said, what do you think? what do you think it's going like? And I said, well, it changes the chemistry of the cast.
01:17:06
Speaker
So it's going to be really interesting. because you're still essentially trying to do the same thing, but now you have a different cast. So when these kinds of things that we're working on, we have to take that into account and find that, how to convey that new chemistry. So, you know, I just, I look at it as...
01:17:29
Speaker
It's a human endeavor, basically, is what it comes down to. So ah how do we how do we shape that so that it's a human endeavor that also means something to the people who are watching it?
01:17:41
Speaker
Or being told it or reading about it or whatever? Two questions. The first one being... is there somewhere that I should go, whether it's your website or LinkedIn, we're connected on LinkedIn, thankfully, and so that I can continue to better my understanding of you and your work.
01:18:04
Speaker
And then the second question, are there things that we didn't touch on that we should, words of wisdom, or things that you would recommend that I be thinking about?
01:18:17
Speaker
I'd love to have a longer conversation with you about what you're trying to do, just in case any of my experience as an entrepreneur would be helpful.
01:18:32
Speaker
um i just get a lot of joy out of that, of helping other people to think it through. And some of the details that I didn't discover until much later, like you know, struggling with the bookkeeping aspect of the business and then finally turning it over to someone.
01:18:49
Speaker
And the next year, revenue doubled. You know, things like um an entrepreneurial coach that I worked with who just said, you know, work in your unique zone of talent, hire everybody yeah for all the other stuff.
01:19:03
Speaker
Um, you know, these are didn't advice that didn't come from me, but, um, but came from other people that helped me think about it differently. Um, she also said to me, um,
01:19:17
Speaker
Your brand is, um i can make it, I make it better. And I said, yeah, again, it makes it hard to market us because it just sounds arrogant. That's what we want and that's what we do and that's what we can do. But it's hard to go into somebody and go, yeah. Where you are, oh yeah, i can make you better.
01:19:40
Speaker
um So it's that's that's odd, but it was it was helpful to think about it that way. So anything that she shared, and there's another entrepreneurial coach too. So when but when we have a longer conversation about that, I'm happy to share all that stuff with you.
01:19:55
Speaker
um As far as contacting us, ah I would suggest, ah there's a video on my LinkedIn page about storytelling.
01:20:07
Speaker
It's, don't know, two or three, for maybe four minutes long, but it's pretty, i voiced it. Save money on a voiceover calendar. Excuse me. Um.
01:20:19
Speaker
But it's very simple, just line animation that lays out how we think about storytelling. um And then, of course, messageglue.com is where um there's a focus on storytelling there, mostly from the aspect of writing and and coaching or facilitating storytelling.
01:20:44
Speaker
And so there's a ah part of the page that's dedicated to Anna and part that's dedicated to me. um And people have given us great feedback on it. I don't know how much...
01:20:58
Speaker
if we get any traction from it, but um that's there to look at. um'm And over the last couple of years, I've posted a lot of stuff on LinkedIn. So all of it written by me and not by AI. So um in fact, I did post something recently ah maybe a year and a half or so ago, maybe longer, where I had an AI-generated picture of myself and said, I realize now after all these years, that's what I am.
01:21:29
Speaker
I'm an AI. Clients prompt me, and then I give them what they ask for. um Usually now after using some AI tools, I think faster than...
01:21:42
Speaker
Faster than the yeah sometimes. Without those crazy illogical, please take three of the fingers off that eight-fingered guy that you just drew.
01:21:53
Speaker
um So yeah, those two places are probably the best. little more personality and some testimonials on the LinkedIn site, um but a decent overview on messageglue.com.
01:22:06
Speaker
And the email's easy, can at messageglue.com. So that's another easy way to reach out. Well, I appreciate you being here. And considering that we have a few minutes after I stop the recording, I may pick your brain briefly on podcasting and all that. But I appreciate you being here. Thank you for recording with me, Ken. This has been awesome. Absolutely. Thank you, Eric.