Transcript
johngrimsmo: Good morning and welcome to the Business of Machining, episode 391. My name is John Grimsmough.
John S: And my name is John Saunders.
johngrimsmo: And this is your weekly dose of manufacturing and business theory and two friends who just like to talk about cutting metal.
John S: That you're going to say therapy theory.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, sometimes I do, but I am ah have no interest in cutting wood.
John S: I like that.
John S: I Oh, hard, like hard pass dead organic.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: the Although, well, yeah.
johngrimsmo: I mean, it's beautiful. I love it. it's I just, I can't measure in only sixteenths of an inch.
John S: Right. I've become friends with a guy that I know through the organ world.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: So my dad is an organist, blah, blah, blah. And he has a, he's our age. Like we have actually have a ton of similarities, like a great guy. And he has an organ building company in the New England area.
John S: and And, you know, for years has done stuff the OG way, but then they just got it an avid CNC. So I've been talking to him, he's for sure rolling on his own, but like ah weighing in here and there on that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: um But, you know, he just, he'll send me texts and photos and memes of like wood and it just, you know, hard unsubscribe all day long. Yeah, it's disgusting.
johngrimsmo: A hundred percent.
John S: It's actually all beautiful to sort clear.
johngrimsmo: We're just joking, but yep.
John S: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So how are you doing?
John S: you see Do you see the typo on our new lathe on Insta?
johngrimsmo: No. Oh yeah. I did on the, yeah, on the label.
John S: I mean, you would think Viva and China have like nailed down some like Americanisms or Englishisms. So I understand if you open the the instruction book in this peculiarities, but literally on the top of the seven by 14 lathe, it says speed control, S -P -E -E -T. So yeah, there's that.
johngrimsmo: so So how is your new lathe purchased?
John S: ah It is it is crunchy and grindy and I like Garrett or Grant was using it. and I'm just like, I'm sorry. We all like laugh It'll it's fine for like for what it is.
John S: It's great.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: Yeah No, I mean like the cross and frankly is probably just stiff because of the China or it like the Cosmo, you know, whatever that is um It really is fine for for the for what you want.
johngrimsmo: I didn't even think about like a gearbox spindle. Is it? But all of it, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Totally.
John S: I
johngrimsmo: Worth the cost of admission kind of for the for the job at hand.
John S: Yeah, totally, totally.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John S: like But we were joking, because we have, yes, I was, ah good, what going on, and I... It doesn't matter whether I do a good job or not.
John S: What I realized was, okay, so now we need to switch into that, like spend money, not time mode. So for example, we have a quirky problem where we're trying to turn some S7 parts on the Willeman.
John S: And when you buy tool steel that's not been precision ground, like the normal tool steel, it's all oversized so that you can turn it down. So one inch S7 that is like 1 .04 inches, it's at 30, 40 ,000 oversized.
johngrimsmo: Mmm. Really? Whoa. Okay.
John S: And that doesn't fit in a one -inch collet on the Wilhelmin. And so we have ordered one, but it has to come from Switzerland. So that'll be seven, 10 days. And so I don't have that kind of time right now.
John S: Like we need to start, we need to tackle through something. So that's when it's a no brainer.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John S: So I just put, you know, a large quantity of material in the McMaster cart or large dollar amount compared to what we normally spend on McMaster material.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: um Because tomorrow we have it, if it's in the collet, we can do what we need to do for testing and move on, which is great.
johngrimsmo: okay
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly. I hear you.
John S: Yeah, how you doing?
johngrimsmo: Doing good. Making a slow, steady progress on VL stuff. I got some current updates for you today. And my hard mailing tools just came in.
John S: two so did learns We actually had to order more rego stuff which I'm fine with because we just keep
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: I mean, happy with it. So it's kind of like, okay, like just buy more.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: Great.
johngrimsmo: Yep, yep.
John S: Um, so I'm waiting on a four millimeter comp there, but go ahead. What'd you get?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I also am waiting on a four millimeter collet, but I have one on the shelf and I i was just looking in the rack on the current and I'm like, there's a four millimeter collet. Ooh, I don't use that tool. I set it up for a thing two years ago and I've never used it.
johngrimsmo: So take that, taking that.
John S: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um So that's, that's good. So the tools literally just came in today. I had about five minutes to, you know, unbox them and look them um under the microscope and they look pretty nice.
johngrimsmo: look So I got the Maldino tools, you got the and NS tools, both carbide and mills for hard milling, right?
John S: Mm hmm.
John S: Correct.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, and I'm excited to get it running.
John S: Good. Yeah, no big deal though.
johngrimsmo: One of the ones I got was a high feed end mill, two millimeter high feed for flute.
John S: I mean, it's just Oh, yeah.
johngrimsmo: It looks glorious. It just looks really, really nice. And I got, you know, the stubbiest stick out and it just looks great. with their special coding for hard milling.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And I've heard from various listeners and Instagram people that the coding really is really is magic.
John S: Yeah, I will be switching out for that, but as I've so now said multiple conversations, we have that YG1. It's meant for hard milling, but it's it's a $30 end bill.
John S: So it's not at the level of performance or repeatable. There may be other attributes to the NS Multino level of coding or quality grind accuracy, but what's...
johngrimsmo: Yep.
johngrimsmo: carbide substrate, like.
John S: Funny is that it's, we've now hard built a fair amount with it, time in the cut.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: um I shouldn't say fair, 20, 30 minutes, but you know you run you run a ah three -eighth inch end mill in 4140 at, you know, bad feeds and speeds after 30 minutes.
John S: it'll It'll chip or show some wear.
johngrimsmo: For sure.
John S: This thing was brand new and is cutting phenomenally.
johngrimsmo: No way.
johngrimsmo: I should try some.
John S: So I'm not, I had been sort of focused on thinking about working up, spending time working up and testing this tool. And now I'm more just like, Oh, I'm just going to re -affix it, run it, like move on.
John S: Like I'm not even, it's not a project anymore.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: It's just a task.
johngrimsmo: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, and I kind of proved that with our current to board tools, they're not for hard milling, but they are the they're for running fast and steel kind of thing. um And they definitely die pretty quickly hard when hard milling, but they get the job done for however many minutes at a time.
John S: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: But to prove the theory, right? Like I need time, not wasted tools or like I need this done now so that I can answer the question. I can then order the tool.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um So the Maldino tools took two weeks to come in.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: They did come from Japan. So I have to sort of plan that into my you know future purchase schedule. And looking forward to that next couple of days.
johngrimsmo: Hopefully I'll get to a test them out.
John S: Do you ever, do you cut much steel, steel for 140?
johngrimsmo: only only 4140 for fixtures
John S: It's similar. Yeah. Okay. Garrett, I gotta to give him credit. We are switching, ironically, from a Mitsubishi or Maldino inserted face mill to a Haas tooling one that we get phenomenal.
John S: We've got some phenomenal results. um I feel like I have to say this just to make sure it's clear. There's no relationship or sponsorship. like I'm not shilling for Haas tooling. We're just using it.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: um and So we weren't getting great vis a service finish on this particular feature like we were on the other identical inserts or even the same tool elsewhere. And he said, well, the way we were running the Maldino, and this is a finish cut with a small diameter inserted face mill and 4140 steel, some of it's Yeah.
John S: And, uh, basically punchline was we're running it at a thousand service feet a minute, which, yeah.
johngrimsmo: and steel.
John S: And, you know, even the insert box sort of said, Hey, high end in steel is, I forget, six, seven, 800, maybe an 800 service fee in steel is to me hot, but, um, thousand gives us the, and I don't, I don't think it's.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: transitioned into a burnishing, maybe it has. So far though, the tool life has been great too. We actually use that fair amount. So I thought that was interesting.
johngrimsmo: nice Yeah, I've been definitely playing with speeds and feeds and and getting more aggressive on some of them, especially more time consuming ops, um like surfacing our titanium handles. I'm finished surfacing them at 600 SFM.
John S: Inti.
johngrimsmo: ah ti Yeah.
John S: Oh, I thought that was like the 325.
johngrimsmo: max yeah totally even like 150 is kind of your baseline like run everything 150 sfm you'll be okay and tie but for these finishing cuts where i'm only cutting 2000 material uh with the ball mill like the core the 45 degree of a ball mill uh i'm like how fast can i go and i was asking mike at milterra who makes this particular eight um eight fluid end mill and he's like keep keep going until it doesn't like it
John S: Yeah, like full stop.
John S: Hmm. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And so I'm going at 600 SFM, 2 ,000 per rev, maybe a little bit slower. um And to the upper tooth, maybe maybe so I forget, maybe one for finishing, two for roughing, one for finishing.
John S: Do you stop her tooth? Okay, ooh, okay.
johngrimsmo: And I'm getting like 4 ,000 minutes of tool life out of it, which is loads.
John S: Oh yeah, that's insane. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And even then it still looks brand new, but it's starting to smear just a little bit and like. You know, it's going for that ultimate finish, I'm like, after 4 ,000 minutes of cut, I'm okay.
John S: So the military is Zadara, right?
johngrimsmo: Is it all right? Yeah, same people.
John S: Do they own their, do they have their own PVD chambers?
johngrimsmo: They do not, they don't code anything unless requested.
John S: Oh, so it's their naked tools.
johngrimsmo: Yep, un -coded, yep.
John S: Interesting, okay.
johngrimsmo: They have thoughts on that. And they're like, why bother?
John S: Yeah, I guess for Ty, as sharp um as you want that edge, I hear you. I would also think that the higher service footage of coding could play a big role.
johngrimsmo: Absolutely.
John S: Huh.
johngrimsmo: As we are about to see with our fancy hard milling end mills with fancy codings, right?
John S: Yeah, touche. Yeah. But it's got me kind of on this culmination of this improving things at Saunders, better fixtures processes, heart grinding, heat treating, really loving ah loving that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: And then I'm looking at some of these fixtures that I had originally thought we could not Easily or practically hardened because of the complexity of them and now I'm like Screw it.
John S: I'm just gonna heat treat it and then hard mill the whole damn thing. Excuse me um Like who cares like it'll work I think And you can relieve a bunch of areas so that you're only having to critical hard mill pads in certain areas but that would be so much easier than trying to build multi inserted fixtures where you have pads that you can grind and I
johngrimsmo: ye Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: Even if we had, I kind of regret not buying our Okamoto as the CNC version at this point, but even if we had it, it wasn't going to be able to grind, com like you can't grind pockets, if you know what I mean.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John S: Like it's a big still gonna be a big wheel, all that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, cool.
John S: So anyway, hard milling.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, as long as flatness is the key, like with a making a big steel fixture, heat treating it, it's going to warp and do weird stuff maybe, and then hard melt to fix it.
John S: That's one of the things we're about to find out on the round stuff is we have a new part that we do want to heat treat and it's got and a fair amount of material removal and just doing some reading. A2 and S7 are supposed to be resistant to heat treat warpage, but um yeah, we're gonna find out.
johngrimsmo: Really?
johngrimsmo: really
johngrimsmo: Cool.
John S: This could be a, okay, gotta to go back to the drawing board. We'll we'll see.
johngrimsmo: And these are for internal fixtures to hold parts that you make to sell.
John S: those ah Those parts are not, but TBD.
johngrimsmo: Okay. TBD, or puck chuck stuff, or whatever, but I know you talk a lot about making internal fixtures.
John S: Yeah.
John S: Yeah, that's been a bunch of the stuff too.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Yeah, I mean, we use 41 .40 for our fixtures, or PP7, P9. P -19, P -20, P -20.
John S: Yeah, p20 is a steal.
johngrimsmo: I think that's what it was. That's our main tombstones, and but mostly 41 -40, and it it just just works great.
John S: Right.
johngrimsmo: It's such a good fixture material.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: you know
John S: We actually threw some 17 -4 pre -hard in the Nat McMaster cart because I wanted to have some 45 -hour protocol stuff that we could use that will be hard enough, that'll be that hard without heat treating.
John S: So um I might reach out to you because I know you tur turned that a bunch and I've never, I don't think I've ever turned it or touched it.
johngrimsmo: 17 for or okay Got it.
John S: Yeah. The 74 that's at 45.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah, that's what we turn all the time.
John S: So it's like, is it the H900 state or something?
johngrimsmo: Yep, exactly Yep all day every day And we do some milling on it, too.
John S: Yeah. who
johngrimsmo: It just cuts like butter. It's just beautiful I mean, it's a stainless steel and stainless steel by itself choose up tools eventually but Yeah Nope, nope, it just it does tools eventually
John S: okay
John S: Okay It's not like the 304 where you end up though, like just all the sudden hot war gardens and tears stops, okay Yeah, so how's um what's the current updates how's it feel going I
johngrimsmo: So current updates, what was it last week? We had the tool changer issue. I posted the video, the Instagram thing, where it was dropping tools. um And then we replaced the belt, got it all tensioned, put it back together.
johngrimsmo: Seems to be working great. We got about two days out of it, worked great. And then it started dropping tools again.
John S: No.
johngrimsmo: And we're like, oh. And then Angelo and his guys um found out that the belt that they had installed had stretched or loosened or something. So there was some play in there.
johngrimsmo: And there's no like torque spec. How do you tension a belt from two sides with wedge screws? And it's kind of weird. But then he was tapping on the upper belt and he's like, this is tight. Like a drum, like you can hear it ding.
johngrimsmo: And then, so they tighten the bottom one to kind of get that same tightness out of it.
John S: yeah
johngrimsmo: And now they're pretty happy with it. And then it started working again and it worked all weekend. We got like a 30 hour run out of it nonstop. And then come in Monday morning, sweet, everything worked. And then it go to do the warmup routine and run the first program.
johngrimsmo: And it grabs the probe, puts the probe away and it dropped the probe.
John S: Oh, John.
johngrimsmo: And we're like, what?
John S: and
johngrimsmo: So the probe tip smashed, probe's laying on the ground. I'm not into work yet, so Angela's dealing with this on his own, trying to figure out what's going on. And then you once I got in, I was like, okay, let's let's call Kern and see where we went wrong.
johngrimsmo: Because the belt that we replaced is the Festo belt. it's It's the belt for that part.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Did we miss a step? Did we not do something right? um And after putting up that first video, I was like, here's the problem. We fixed it. Yay. I felt obligated to film this part two. ah I guess we didn't fix it. Here's what we learned. And talking to Kern, basically we didn't home it or align it properly when we put it back together. Cause it's a big gantry and there's some play in it and you can install the rails a little bit left to right, or you could tilt the vertical axis a little bit side to side. and
johngrimsmo: We're like, let's make it vertical. So we use the level, and we made it straight up and down. But the the tool change of frame is not necessarily level to the ground. It doesn't need to be. It doesn't have to be whatever. It just has to be square to itself.
johngrimsmo: And so talking to Kern, Christian and Kern on the phone, you move the whole gantry to the side against hard bump stops, because we're sitting there looking for limit switches, can't find anything. And it's hard bump stops, and it sees a voltage spike in the motor when it hits something hard.
johngrimsmo: It's kind of the clear path method.
John S: Yeah, our hard stop homie.
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um And once I push the axis all the way to the side, it's supposed to bump at the top and the bottom, and it's only bumping at the bottom with a solid quarter inch gap at the top. And that quarter inch, now we have problems on the top.
johngrimsmo: That's where the probe is. It is off center. You go to grab a tool from the top, and it's a quarter inch off. And you go to grab a tool from the bottom, and it's perfect.
John S: Sure.
johngrimsmo: So this is starting to make sense. I love when things make sense.
John S: Agree.
johngrimsmo: um So then we played around with it and played around with it and shifted the lower rail over a little bit and then also kind of bumped it, you know, loosen everything up and got it bumped so that both sides were touching perfect, tightened everything up, checked it a whole bunch, grabbed a bunch of tools and everything looked right.
johngrimsmo: And now it's been fine. Like, I think, I think we did it right now.
John S: Oh, good. You were telling me I sort i was like waiting for the next shoe to drop here.
johngrimsmo: it Well, the other thing, the the probe works fine.
John S: That's great.
johngrimsmo: Which is a blessing. Like we have the same probe in our speedio. If I had to, I could take it and steal it. And like the current cannot run without a probe. It's just, I use it way too much.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Speedio, I'd get away with it. It's fine. um
John S: Yeah, but it's also, I'm so resistant to to that, these process these days, because it's like, I'm not criticizing you here, but it's like, don't screw up two machines.
johngrimsmo: yeah Totally.
John S: Like you're creating other problems.
johngrimsmo: But like if I had to.
John S: i Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um So yeah, that was, I mean, that was all day yesterday was, was diagnosing and fixing, and then recalibrate the probe, go through that whole procedure.
John S: Good. I'm sorry.
johngrimsmo: And, uh, and that works great.
John S: Good.
johngrimsmo: And now the current's like, what problem? I'm i'm fine. I don't know what you're talking about.
John S: So it's the whole thing's a quarter inch. I mean, quarters along that six foot distance.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: That's strange.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Yep.
John S: Got it.
johngrimsmo: So I don't know if it's shifting over time, we'll keep an eye on it, but um now that I know the homing routine and that if you simply push the axis to the side and see how close it is to the bump stops top and bottom, that tells you a lot.
John S: Yeah. Good.
johngrimsmo: So that's good, we learned a lot. And it's, you know, the the side effects of doing your own service is you don't know the rules. We we never, I guess we didn't ask for the white paper on the aligning the tool changer and there probably is one.
John S: right so that's a great segue can we can we kind of break the uh what's it called in the movie they break the third wall or something here um but but we got a really nice letter from a long -time listener and i really i won't read it quite for verbatim but um there's always a struggle here because i don't
johngrimsmo: So yeah.
John S: Certainly don't think anyone wants to listen to you and me pat ourselves in the back. That's not the point. But I do think there's some aspect of sharing, ah whether it's inspiration or just motivational to but amongst the group, or the listeners and so forth. But says, Hello, John and John, hope all as well. We have a lot of new projects in my day job.
John S: that are bringing back stuff to us occurred to me several times that the two of you have a unique and valuable skill set that's not only relevant to my job to many ah others as well and that skill set is and there's four bullet points learning how to do blank with no background or training recognizing ah approaching ideas with a blank slate in an open mind recognize value you when taking significant risk like buying a current or buying the horizontal and objective reasoning even if it's a newer or younger person in of the shop saying, hey, maybe it could be this that's causing the problem.
John S: And he goes on, the traditional approach of kind of asking, you know, the suit and time, machine tool vendor, how to do it, but it seems that your approach of, hey, what if this great idea, could we make this work, um is inspirational and and opens up more doors and has resulted in the business being like, goes on accolades like that.
John S: But um it's nice, like, yeah, right?
johngrimsmo: I really appreciate that. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, that's that's my day to day. What's what's weird about that?
John S: Right.
johngrimsmo: But no, that's true.
John S: And I enjoyed, I watched, I think most of your current video, you know, look, you guys all had a candid conversation internally. Like, should we have just spent the five grand to buy the replacement? Like, I'm not saying we always make the right decisions for sure, but I do know.
johngrimsmo: ah
John S: Well, go ahead. Sorry. you Yeah.
johngrimsmo: ah So I got nothing. You're you're right.
John S: um That idea.
johngrimsmo: and And sometimes like business is not so clear cut. Like you do have those internal conversations like, should we do this? Should we do that? I'm going to go this way. And it's very easy from the outside looking in to be like, God, why didn't you do that? You should have done that.
johngrimsmo: but You just make a call.
John S: Yeah.
John S: But that's what he's sort of saying was he plans with, please give some consideration to the topic of traditional versus non -traditional as it relates to, well, he says reshoring. But um you know that idea of of how do we um make what we need to make with the tools that we have.
John S: And you know I've been through this process, not privately, but it hasn't been something I discussed as much on the bomb.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: But looking at, um ID, OD grinders, looking at other ways of sort doing some critical talk stuff, looking at those crazy like roku Roku machines, and then realizing, okay, coming back, I've had kind of some fun.
John S: like I think there's actually some pretty realistic ways that we can do this with the tools we have.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: um In this case, it wasn't even so much for the goal of bootstrapping. There is something to be said for Hey, fewer machines, fewer stuff to maintain footprint, cost real estate costs, capital costs.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: Um, but I also would have happily looked at what we need to, and frankly, we made at some point, but, um, it was just, but it was more about the new tool holders, new, we're looking, we're talking to a company right now about custom gauging stuff so we can measure what we're doing, the and NS tool stuff, um, all that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And that's exactly where I'm at. We talked about last week about buying an EDM, you know, I went down the rabbit hole and like, this could be awesome.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It could change our lives. And then you pause on it for a little bit. You have your fun with the research. And I love that stuff. You learn everything that the internet wants to tell you. And then you kind of like sit on it for a little bit. You're like, that's a lot of money.
johngrimsmo: And can we do it without spending a dime? You know, can, can we accomplish much of that?
John S: Right.
johngrimsmo: Most of that, uh, with what we have. And it got me to rethink about things, you know, actually, if we.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: put this over there and that over there and we get this, you know, a couple hundred dollar tool, then maybe, maybe that's all it takes, you know, without taking the hassle and the time and the effort and the money of learning a new thing and, you know, banking the, the, the farm on it, you know, and, uh, hoping it'll work.
John S: Yeah. Right.
johngrimsmo: And meanwhile, after I told you last week that that um we're not going to get medium, then Spencer Webb had like a great podcast but about EDMs.
John S: but the
johngrimsmo: And I'm like, oh, right. I forgot about that.
John S: Oh, that was that was a great podcast. I think that was also as much a cautionary tale though It's like oh those like trinkets were eight hours and it consumed four pounds of wire and they're not always you know, they're what do you call it what the guy says like they are ah They're lights out until they're not Yeah What appreciate the kind words there I don't I guess I don't
johngrimsmo: For sure. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly.
John S: I remember vividly kind of just swimming upstream and learning this and tackling this, not caring what other people thought. And you lose some of that as you get into, you get more experienced, you get more jaded, you go through more things.
John S: But yeah, it's kind of like, oh, I'm going to figure out how to make this work. Like it's kind of like, I think some of the, some of the machine tool vendors that have sold us a higher end machines, I don't think really thought we were a real customer at first, not because they were trying to be rude.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
johngrimsmo: Totally.
John S: And then it's like, no, we're here. We got it going.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: Like, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So on our high -end machine, on the current right now, I'm running a Fjell handle P11 to be the 11th prototype.
John S: Nice.
johngrimsmo: I haven't made a handle in like two or three months. And I've been kind of racking up some changes. I'm keeping a really good changelog, a Google Sheet about, you know, revision number, date, Fusion CAM file number, Fusion CAD file number, and then what changes I'm making so that I can look at each one and go, this is P10, this is P11, what's the difference? And I have documented, like, bearing pockets deeper, bigger, slower speeds and feeds, you know, a slower chamfer, so it should better look better kind of thing.
johngrimsmo: And that's been really helpful. So I'm running a handle right now. And i've I've run these specific toolpaths. I've run them before. And then I was running them today, like 20 minutes ago.
johngrimsmo: And the current stopped mid -cut. Coolant's still spraying.
John S: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: I can't tell that it stopped.
John S: Hmm.
johngrimsmo: And then so I turn the coolant off. Spindle's off. It's stuck in the middle of a cut. B -axis tilted to 45 degrees and like in a cut. um And it says block format incorrect on the hide and hide control.
johngrimsmo: And it's basically trying to change spindle speed mid cut.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And I was like, what the heck? I've run this toolpath before. Why is it doing this? And I go back. I look through the code. I'm like, yep. It says S9000 whatever M3, M03, which should work.
johngrimsmo: Maybe you need M3 first and then S um to change the spindle speed. but for some reason it didn't like it in the middle of a program but the Camplete post was putting it there for some reason so i don't know but digging in fusion it turns out there's the rpm you want and then there's the ramp spindle speed and they were different normally i never even think about it i don't care i don't even know what it's for really but it was like 8 000 rpm is what i want and 91 72 is the ramp spindle speed
John S: Mm -hmm Yeah But that's sus like what was up with it something's weird what changed hmm
johngrimsmo: And for some reason that caused a problem. So I just made them both say 1000 and post it again and it's running fine.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, something's weird. But I almost never, I think I've seen it before a couple of times, but I almost never really have that issue.
John S: Weird. Yeah. Huh.
johngrimsmo: So yeah.
John S: You know.
John S: All right. You want to hear the punchline to my three and a half day debacle last week.
johngrimsmo: Oh yes.
John S: Um, I'm going to phrase it in a way that makes it sound like it wasn't our fault, but I, I share in the responsibility to for sure. Um, the vendor changed the material on us.
johngrimsmo: Start over, remind me what we're talking about again.
John S: The precision interpolating two bores five inches apart, they get they in the machine
johngrimsmo: Yes. Right.
John S: using the probe to the extent that that's accurate. They show perfect. um The deltronics pin, which is only checking the interpolated diameter, phenomenal within a tenth of what I'm looking for.
John S: And then when you try to hard gauge the part or you try to measure offline, which is a little tricky for us to do, it's consistently nine tenths to 1 .8 thou off, somewhere in that like a thou and a half range.
johngrimsmo: Wow. Yep. And, and as we left last week, you were hoping that it was a clamping issue or a ah material moving in the vice, something like that.
John S: which was incorrect, it was not that, but that was close.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John S: And I have to tip of the hat to, well, Alex here, who came up with that idea, which helped lead us to then Lawrence, who was the one.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: At this point, I actually thought I understood, well, they switched it to a cold finish product that had stress in the skin of the material.
johngrimsmo: No way.
John S: Now, we were removing, um a This part looks like an oversized candy bar If you will and we were removing the top obviously and then all this other see your four sides plus the top um In a significant portion of everything so it was just a small part that left in the bottom And what's happening is that small part in the bottom with the cold finish skin?
johngrimsmo: Good. come
John S: um Which I quote -unquote know but wasn't expecting in this way to first of all I didn't realize that they had switched it we had switched and the spec slightly for other reasons, and then I didn't realize that included this change.
John S: Once we saw it, ah it clicked.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John S: But yeah, as soon as you cut that skin off on up to the part, like relaxed or moved and distorted, and that's what caused the hole to be out.
johngrimsmo: Huh.
John S: And so it's like a super easy fix.
johngrimsmo: No way.
John S: I don't love our fix, but it'll be fine, and we'll fix it. you know We'll get to Fortnite for you.
johngrimsmo: What metal is it?
johngrimsmo: And it switched to a different 4140 or is it cold?
John S: Yeah, there's a bunch of different conditions and states you could get it in, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Really? all All I know is 4140 and 4140HT. That's all I know.
John S: Oh yeah, the pre hard stuff. Yeah, and 440 plate is, well, I don't want, at the risk of making generalist statements, it's always a hot roll product, but we, in this case, we're looking to get some more consistently sized stuff out of bar, and that's what led them to provide this, but it was also then a cold finish, and it's um whatever.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John S: um Classic amateur mistake in that, like, you know, stress and material will cause it to put it all over the place. This was such a small amount. and But it it explains all of the behaviors, explains why it was probed perfectly when it was still clamped um and so forth.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
johngrimsmo: Mm hmm.
John S: So.
johngrimsmo: And then you unclamp it and it relaxes and moves and oh, yeah, I mean, it is a learned skill to understand what material wants to do.
John S: Bingo. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And I find myself learning it more and more with experience, you know, both, but how the end mill wants to cut it and how what it wants to do after that. And, you know, where the chips want to go, but, but like how the material wants to move, especially when you got like a five -axis thing or you're tapping it off or whatever, you're constantly thinking like, where's the rigidity?
johngrimsmo: Where's the chatter going to go?
John S: Right.
johngrimsmo: Where's the, two you know, how's this going to look afterwards? um on the unwillman parts, I see it daily. I'm like, how much can I get away with? How thin can I make that thing before the whole thing just chatters?
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And you're guessing, and then you gain experience, and you're like, that didn't work. And then you try it again, like a tooth out tab, it's not gonna hold anything, but you know, 10 ,000 maybe, I don't know.
John S: Yeah.
John S: Well, unlike we've all done it, you work apart. Obviously if I have access, it's great. Cause you can do that, but like you do certain areas, you've rotated, you come back. Um, I've even done the kind of Christmas tree water line apart where I'll like literally leave a bunch of a rough justice.
John S: The first little section, do some criticals move down. Obviously that can still be affected by how the overall material moves, but it gives you the built -in stability while you're at don't just work on the top of it.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: Yeah.
John S: Um, I would have long -term list of questions. I haven't heard about your Dura vertical in like a year.
johngrimsmo: yeah That's funny.
John S: She don't. Okay. See lonely.
johngrimsmo: She is ah solid. I haven't touched it. I mean, a few little things, but um it runs every day. It makes ah the bevels of our Norseman and the handle topsides of our Norseman handles and the clips, all three ops on the clip, actually, every day, just probably averaging, I don't know, four to six hours a day consistently.
John S: Okay.
John S: Got it.
John S: Yeah, just does its thing.
johngrimsmo: Just runs, just runs.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: That's great. And it's like the most reliable machine ever. It just runs.
John S: Yeah, it just runs.
johngrimsmo: It just runs.
John S: No maintenance issues, no.
johngrimsmo: Not really. We got to change the oil in the ATC. I think we've been saying that for about five years now. um
johngrimsmo: There's some sort of ATC chiller, I think, which is probably the same system. I don't know. It just works great.
John S: Yeah, just runs.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: That's good.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: good oh Well, since we were just talking about um precision and measuring and so forth, I don't remember already if this was Laney Tech or Renzetti or, oh no, it was, or Silo's Garage, one of those guys, tip of the hat to all you guys.
johngrimsmo: Again.
John S: um I'll see if we can get the the link to this in the ah Podcast notes um it is or you maybe you can just google it 50 tidbits by Dave Arneson and Dave Arneson I believe is a big deal or maybe the the deal at precision instruments aka air bearings calm and these are 50 tidbits I think about
johngrimsmo: Ah yes, that was Robin.
John S: Making, I don't remember if it's like just measuring or making good ah parts or precision parts. obviously I just think I'm not gonna read all 50, but.
johngrimsmo: Pick a couple.
John S: um Yeah, so I mean, number one thing like cross check what you're doing with a lesser accuracy gauge. um Push on your indicator stand to see if the needle comes back to the same spot. 60 degree centers are a gift from God. Ground services go to better go together better than lap surfaces. Always stone your ah parts. um Everything is rubber and when you measure micro -inches.
John S: thermal stuff, coefficient expansions, um screws, things bend, collets need to be used on size, just all these sorts of things that are, because I was, I mean, I think it probably came through on the podcast, I was going some soul searching where I'm like, do we have a ball screw issue?
johngrimsmo: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: um Do we have some fundamental problem? have Has that been contaminated other parts which didn't make sense because we know we would see that but you also trying to keep an open mind.
John S: So I have this now pinned on my desk because it's a really good thing to to just look through.
johngrimsmo: yeah Yeah, I need to post it too. So I was listening to Spencer Webb's PFG podcast and Robin came on for a little tidbit. And he he mentioned that list like under his breath in about two seconds.
johngrimsmo: And then, so I DM'd him and I was like, Robin, can I can i get the link to that?
John S: Thanks Robin.
johngrimsmo: Cause I went to the website airbarings .com. learn more about precision instruments. I've never heard about them before. They have some really solid articles on their website that are quite enjoyable to read.
johngrimsmo: They're like PDFs. It's like a magazine page of tidbits of like surface grinding cylindrical round parts on a hundred hundred year old surface grinder and making it perfect. And like, this was supposed to be one of them, but this is this 50 tidbits is not in that list.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And I looked at a bunch of them. Um, before I found out it's not there.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So then Robin sent me the link and then he posted it and then it kind of went from there.
John S: Good, okay, I sent it to you too, but a really good, just good resource.
johngrimsmo: Perfect.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And I like learning, um, things like that from people who are very experienced that, uh, that are good at doing that kind of stuff. Like I don't think I'm the kind of guy that can come up with a list of 50 tricks at blah, blah, blah.
johngrimsmo: My brain doesn't work that way.
John S: Right.
johngrimsmo: I don't reflect enough to pull them out of my hat like that.
John S: When these guys look, I still, um, I'm proud of what we, what we've become in the parts that we make, but I still very much respect and look up to. The forgive me, Robin, the older gentlemen like Robin that had been around the block and the young guys like silo and even out of the machinists that are, you know, those guys are incredibly sharp.
johngrimsmo: Absolutely.
John S: and Um, and I'm grateful to soak up knowledge from them.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
johngrimsmo: Absolutely, and they take, um They take a whole new meaning to precision and desire for consistency and accuracy and precision, and and that that resonates with me deeply.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So those those guys and many more, Spencer and others, I listen when they talk.
John S: Yeah.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: you know And I hope to be the guy that that can can carry that legacy on, you know like be that that source of information.
John S: Yeah.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: because I love amassing this information and testing and tuning and I forget if I mentioned it last week but I learned a new lapping technique from Robin on Spencer's podcast where like I've made the cast iron flat laps um with the diamond lapping paste and I would use it kind of more for fun than for actual production.
johngrimsmo: So we have these cast iron lapping plates and we'll we'll lap things. We can go down to 3 micron or less and make things very flat. We've got our monochromatic light source and we can check it and it's like super fun.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And so Robin offhand under his breath kind of mentioned ah that using a piece of paper on top of here and you put some lapping paste on top or some lapping slurry on top and you just give it a couple strokes and Spencer was like blown away.
John S: Oh yes.
johngrimsmo: And I was listening to this at 9pm at home and I'm like, all right, honey, I'm going to work for a little bit.
johngrimsmo: And let me tell you, that is the next level trick of lapping parts flat to get them shiny.
John S: Yes, that's what it was was, the mirror.
johngrimsmo: In the mirror.
John S: Okay, explain like I'm five. yeah You've left a part, you have a lap. What's the paper trick?
johngrimsmo: So basically you put a piece of paper on top of your flat lap, even if it's wet and dirty, whatever, and you put a bit more lapping slurry on top, and it embeds into the super soft paper, the little diamonds just kind of float there.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And then you just do a couple strokes, um as much as you need kind of, of your part on this, on top of the paper that's on top of your flat flat flat surface.
John S: Yeah. Yes.
johngrimsmo: And it just, it just, um, It's like a cushion. you know it's ah it's a There's a word for it.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: That's a polishing step. It's not really lapping anymore. Now it's just polishing. And the paper is just the carrier. So I didn't actually use paper because Spencer suggested something.
John S: Mhm.
johngrimsmo: I used filter paper from the paper rolls behind our current. Just cut a little corner off because it lasts longer. like Paper disappears right away with water.
johngrimsmo: right
John S: Sure.
johngrimsmo: um
John S: Oh, that's right. They were talking about that right in the rain paper.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John S: Uh, that is obviously liquid resistant.
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And, uh, anyway, let me tell you, it just, I, I made an absolute mirror. There are still some deeper or scratches that I haven't gotten out yet, but it is wicked reflective.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And I did.
John S: Oh, the dude, your, your posts, when you were tricking the audience with a reflection baller baller.
johngrimsmo: the
johngrimsmo: That's the one. Yeah, exactly. That's the part I made. And then I also did, you won't be able to see it on camera, but the the pivot on both sides of my prototype Fial, I lapped those ultra flat and then polished them and they're absolute mirrors.
John S: Hmm.
John S: It's awesome.
johngrimsmo: Um.
John S: So the nickel recap for, for me and for folks that don't know much about lapping, let's just say you have a hockey puck. That is your work piece.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: Um, or maybe we'll say it's like a dinner plate. Cause you want it to be a little bit bigger. And normally your lap is smaller and I'm not going to go into all the convex concave like ball.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John S: complexities of lapping but basically a lap is softer material it could be wood or brass or aluminum and then you pour some diamond slurry and that diamond is actually going to embed in the soft lap and it forms this like sort of temporary sandpaper and yes the lapping compound those diamonds or whatever they are will break down but they are going to form that sandpaper and you're going to lap and then and put that flat you're going to project the shape of your lap into your dinner plate.
johngrimsmo: Mm hmm.
John S: um And there's, again, but important details about whether you want a convex lap or kind and how you condition the lap and all that. But then what you're saying is right when you're done, you don't change grit or microns level of coarseness.
John S: You actually just lay a piece of paper down on top of your dinner plate and you just give a couple more strokes.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: Or you play the dinner plate. The paper goes on the lap, not on the work piece.
johngrimsmo: Correct.
John S: And then you would just sprinkle some more liquid diamond slurry and just give it another go.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, on top. Yeah, and give another go.
John S: You don't need to clean the lap or condition the lap.
johngrimsmo: Not necessarily, no.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: It's like mine was still dirty underneath.
John S: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: um And the dirty lap my cast iron laps in part some cat like um I'm naturally lapping cast iron away as well as the loose diamonds are kind of rolling around. And you you develop this kind of darker slurry.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So the part I'm lapping I can never get it like really clean shiny because just the little contaminants and you can wash your laps and that helps but and then you put the clean paper on top with some clean slurry you have no contamination from underneath you still have a very flat base surface your you' original lap and then I was able to lap my little 0 .350 inch pivot um using 3 micron diamond face and it is like ridiculously shiny
John S: Yeah.
John S: Sick.
John S: That's cool.
johngrimsmo: So I'm going to keep playing with that.
John S: oh Right.
johngrimsmo: So the pivot that I have has a chamfer on the outside and has an engraving, our logo engraved on the middle. And when you add the paper step, you're adding a compliant layer with little fibers and everything. So it definitely rounded all of the corners ever so slightly.
johngrimsmo: The surfaces are averaged flat, but every dip, every radius.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um So the paper trick loses your flatness.
John S: Sure.
johngrimsmo: to to a point, but for a bigger object or a solid object or something, like your corners might round out, but the main part stays stupid flat.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So.
John S: Well, it's like three micron. It's like, give somebody six months and they're not going to take two thou off a part with three micron. Like it's just nothing interesting.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. So I love lapping. It's really fun. And then we do production lapping every day on our lapping machine, which I also don't really talk about, but it's awesome.
John S: Fun.
John S: Oh, sure. Sure.
John S: Yeah. It's cool.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I love flat.
John S: Um, I got to run. It's also weird. I think this is like the six fifth or sixth one we've done in the afternoon. It's definitely a different vibe than doing it in the morning.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Yep.
John S: Uh, cause the big day ahead of us and now I'm like, not actually got to run kids are like my wife's going to a school meeting and like yeah, sorry.
johngrimsmo: Like definitely.
johngrimsmo: That's fine. Well, yeah.
John S: I got a couple of things, but I'll see him for next week.
johngrimsmo: Sounds good dude.
John S: All right. See you. Have a good one.
johngrimsmo: Okay. Take care. Bye.
