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Pedram Dara Centering Lived Experience in Psychedelic Care
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In this episode, I’m joined by Pedram Dara, founder and director of Psychedelic Lived Experiences, a global patient-led initiative working to bring lived experience into the heart of psychedelic research, clinical practice, and policy.
Drawing on his own experience as a participant in an MDMA-assisted therapy clinical trial, Pedram shares his journey from patient to advocate and discusses some of the key milestones in the evolution of psychedelic-assisted treatments. We explore the growing recognition of lived experience as a vital source of knowledge and how patient perspectives can strengthen safety, ethics, treatment outcomes, and institutional decision-making.
Our conversation covers the impact of the Psychedelic Lived Experiences Summit, which has brought together thousands of participants, therapists, researchers, and policymakers from around the world. We also discuss the challenges and opportunities of integrating lived experience into clinical systems, the importance of flexibility within therapeutic models, and why long-term therapeutic relationships may be essential for many people undergoing psychedelic treatment.
Finally, Pedram shares his vision for structured advisory boards, training integration, and more accountable systems that place patients and participants at the centre of innovation.
This is a thoughtful and timely conversation about what it means to build a psychedelic ecosystem that is not only evidence-based, but also deeply informed by the people whose lives are most affected by these treatments.
https://pedramdara.com/
https://psychedeliclivedexperiences.com/summit
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Transcript
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Beyond the Trip, a psychedelic therapy podcast with me, Dr. Esme Dark. During this podcast, I'll be bringing you conversations with thought leaders and other inspiring humans, exploring a wide variety of themes relating to the use of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy in the healing of human distress.
00:00:27
Speaker
Whether you're an aspiring therapist, already a therapist, or just simply interested in the emerging field of psychedelic therapy, then this podcast is for you. Join me for a journey into the psychedelic world.
00:00:43
Speaker
Before we get started, I want to take a moment to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the unceded land on which this podcast is recorded, the Wadawurrung people. I pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.
00:01:04
Speaker
Hi everybody, and welcome to this episode of the On The Trote podcast, where I'm delighted to say that I'm joined by Pedram Dara. Pedram is the founder and director of Psychedelic Lived Experiences, which is a patient-led initiative bridging clinical science and lived experience to strengthen decision-making in research, practice, and policy through integrating insights.
00:01:31
Speaker
He's a former participant in an MDMA-assisted therapy clinical trial, and Pedram has advocated for improved patient safety and treatment efficacy since 2019.
00:01:43
Speaker
Combining his background in media and technology with qualitative intelligence and systems design, he's building participant-centered infrastructure that enhances safety, ethics, and long-term outcomes in clinical innovations.
00:01:57
Speaker
He organises the Psychedelic Lived Experience Summit, which I attended and it was really a fantastic resource. I recommend checking it out. A global convening of over 3,000 attendees from 74 countries, unit uniting patients, trial participants, therapists and researchers to centre lived experience and institutional decision making.
00:02:18
Speaker
His perspectives have been shared with policymakers at the US FDA and the European Parliament and featured in leading journals, including Nature Medicine. Pedram collaborates with researchers, therapists, sponsors and regulators to reinforce governance, risk visibility and accountability, helping to shape a future where healthcare advances with rigour, integrity and the people most affected at the centre.
00:02:47
Speaker
There's a lot of shared values between him and I in the work that we do. And so we got into lots of great conversations. We talked about his journeys into this work and a little bit about the MGM-assisted therapy clinical trial. And we talked about the Lift Experience Summit and its impact. The challenges and club of collaborating and also the joy of collaborating and integrating lived experience into different areas of the field. Trial space, also um the clinical space outside of trials as well.
00:03:23
Speaker
We talked about the importance of therapy flexibility and long-term therapeutic relationships within this kind of work. we talked about structured advisory boards, which i think are a really important piece that can be missing in in some areas of this work.
00:03:38
Speaker
And the importance of bringing the lived experience perspective into training as well as into trials and clinical practice. So let's get into it. I'm really excited to have this conversation and I hope to have Pedran back again as well. So at some point you will be hearing from him again, i i am sure So enjoy and hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did.
00:04:03
Speaker
Hi, Pedram. Welcome to the podcast. It's so wonderful to have you here and to be, you know, happy spending some time together. We've been kind of going back and forwards, trying to find some space for a little while now. um And so i I'm delighted to welcome you to the podcast to talk about something really important, i something that you've been really championing, which is the perspective of lived experience in the psychedelic assisted psychotherapy space in research. But also it feels actually really important here in Australia, where of course we're rolling out these treatments um into the community. So yeah, thanks for coming on.
00:04:44
Speaker
Yeah. Hi, Yasmeen. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Excited to be here and speaking with you. Yeah. Awesome. Well, do you want to start by telling us a little bit about your background and how you came to be involved in psychedelic research or psychedelic therapy in this way?
00:05:00
Speaker
Sure. So around late 2018 is when actually I sort of learned about psychiatric therapy as a concept, um but also was around the same time that I was actually learning about my mental challenges. So for me, in a way, putting, you know, like figuring out what was struggling with in terms of the problem,
00:05:23
Speaker
It was also in parallel when I was discovering the solution. So yeah I'm not, you know, like a lot of people I met that maybe like, they you know, they were on SSRIs for like maybe a decade. They tried 10 different things. That's not me. My case wasn't. i actually it wasn't.
00:05:38
Speaker
I was just sort of was struggling in my own ways, not really understanding it. I didn't grow up with mental health culture and education. So like i couldn't really figure out what it was actually a race before I could even take action on it. So not knowing what the problem was, obviously didn't allow me to take action. So just sort of like,
00:05:55
Speaker
suffering in my own world, not knowing what's going on until I sort of like, when I learned about MDMA assisted therapy for PTSD, it was like sort of the first time that like the problems and solutions sort of crystallized both at the same time. And that was around late 2018, which is and around the same time that I learned about the clinical trials of MDMA assisted therapy back in Canada.
00:06:17
Speaker
And that sort of was the entry point for me to get into this world. Yes, because you're based over in Canada, aren't you? And and did maps have a big profile back then? or to head shot no Not all. Honestly, 2018, nobody was talking about psychedelics in general, like, you know, little, not even maps. Like, I mean, there was a few people, of course, those that was then knew they knew, but there wasn't. like So just so you know, so before my case, so there was a phase two site in Vancouver, which I believe that maybe about six participants.
00:06:51
Speaker
And that must have been like four or five years already before my turn. And then nothing was happening. So that was just one part of Canada in British Columbia that ever happened. So one side, one study, and then sort of was just stopped for four or five years.
00:07:05
Speaker
And then when they got to get ready for phase three, they needed for the therapist to complete their study, study their training, they needed to then, you know, obviously do the week long training, but they had to do an experiential case. So it was a requirement for them to do a single experiential case with an actual human participant to then complete the training, which they could then go on and work on phase three.
00:07:27
Speaker
So at that point, they were opening a site in Montreal for them to then work on phase three, but yeah they needed to do one phase two participant open label, which is that end up being my case for them to then complete the training to then go and work on phase three. So no, back then there was, yeah, basically very little activity. There was but now there's like a few organizations in the field. nothing Nothing was around. Nobody was really talking about it as much. So.
00:07:54
Speaker
Yeah, yes so you were really one of the first people in Canada to be the trial. Yeah, so I found out that outside of that, I sort of became the first one ever outside of British Columbia, which is that one province, to ever receive a scientific as part of a clinical trial in Canada. Yeah, I didn't even know myself the significance of it going into it. In Quebec, which is where I did it, definitely I became the happy camera first one.
00:08:16
Speaker
And yeah, so it only like... As I got into it, I actually realized what a big deal that was or, you know, like how lucky I got to actually be selected as a lot. Yeah. And i'm I'm actually really struck by what you shared at the beginning there about like not really knowing what the problem was.
00:08:34
Speaker
And so not knowing what was going on, but knowing that there was some struggles, but then how do you then seek the treatment for something? And I feel like that's a very common thing, particularly with PTSD, because I feel like people think it's one thing, maybe like they've seen maybe in the popular press that it has to be those kind of flashbacks that people traditionally associate with PTSD. And actually it can be so many other things. um and they associate it with with a certain certain type of person maybe. i think it's the know trauma understanding is changing, but it's still, there's a lot of unknowns in the community. So it's interesting to hear you say that.
00:09:14
Speaker
Yeah, like honestly, I thought it's just a thing for soldiers. yeah like Yeah, exactly. yeah That's it. I thought, you know, we go to war and that's it. Like, I didn't even even know. I think i maybe then, of course, I found out about, like, of course, the sexual or assault trauma and things like that. But, like, I think, yeah, most of my understanding, which is when I learned about immunotherapy,
00:09:33
Speaker
and you know served up for PTSD, like the gap that it created in my mind, because they too could could have not been more different from each other. To me, I was like, wow, I thought PTSD was about war and governments and like you know yeah first responders and and regulated world and we like a lot of oversight. And then on the other hand, you have something like and MBMA, which is you know sort of like that.
00:09:54
Speaker
something illegal, something, you know, like it's a drug. And it's just like, how could this even be related? I think that's sort of what piqued my interest at first when I first their started. I was like, what? What's going on here? Like, i almost need to know everything about this.
00:10:07
Speaker
Yeah, I know. It's fascinating, isn't it? And you know and when we think of MDMA, so you know I do mean i do did a talk on this not a so long ago, you know the first thing that people think about is nightclubs, right? But actually it was used in therapeutically first, right? which Which not a lot of people know. i didn't know.
00:10:26
Speaker
Yeah. I don't think I... I don't reckon I knew either until I and started in this work. Yep. Yeah, exactly. um And so you actually, the reason that I heard about you and what you were doing is through the lived experience summit that you created, which was an excellent and is still available to people. We'll talk a bit about that later and how people can access it.
00:10:50
Speaker
But I'm familiar with the term lived experience, but not all of our listeners may be so familiar with that. So do you want to define that, explain what you mean by that, what it means to you in this space? Sure. And it's an evolving thing for me. I'm actually reading a fantastic book called Blindspot and i highly recommend it because it's just sort of validating a lot of things that I sort of was seeing in myself and the field, which is around the sort of disconnect between science and human experience.
00:11:17
Speaker
And so that's really our blind spot because right we're trying to like quantify everything. We're trying to like you know take somebody's life pose an onion, and then we're just looking at one single layer of that one onion. right That's not somebody's full life. right So like yeah human experience, it's it's vague, it's messy, it's hard to quantify. So because of that, scientists don't like that. right So it's just that's why it's been sort of pushed away. And it's like usually anecdotal, and it just doesn't get the attention.
00:11:44
Speaker
It's nothing new about psychedelics in this time. It's just how the world works. You know, this is everywhere. you look at everywhere. I think since we brought academia to the world, you know, back before universities perhaps, like,
00:11:56
Speaker
You took a job because of your father's lived experience or your own lived experience. You had to go somewhere, you learn something and that became your thing. Your expertise came from your experience. Right. And then universities come around and then now expertise comes from the title. Right. The the letter is the alphabet soup that comes after your name. Right. Not so much of that. So once we went that direction, now it's created this gap. between the human experience and, you know, sort of the science that we sort of need both. It's like a coin, right? So if you're just looking at it, you're just looking at the one side, but it's not the full picture, right? So the way I understand lived experience now is that first of all, this there are two different types of it. So as it relates to this conversation, so there's your lived the experience of, let's say, having some sort of a health indication or a diagnosis, mental, physical,
00:12:46
Speaker
um And then what does that what that's mean? right So like somebody has PTSD. right So like what does it mean to go through the process of finding a therapist, finding a psychiatrist, trying one SSRI, trying another SSRI, trying five more SSRIs, you know doing one more dark therapy, then doing EMDR. than another that like Just like five years of just figuring out how to even care for that, that by itself is a very unique type of with the experience, which is yeah mainly around the problem.
00:13:13
Speaker
So like, what is it? Is it depression? Is it PTSD? Is it back pain? Whatever it is, right? That process of just figuring out how to live with this thing, how to find solution for this thing, it's already one form of lived experience. Then the second form is sort of when you took on some sort of a solution. So somebody who's been on SSRI for 20 years, now they have lived experience of living with depression, but also have lived experience of taking a standard of care for 20 years, which is let's say some sort of an SSRI. So those are two different sort of unique lived experiences that in this case can be very useful. And at times you could just need one or the other, or sometimes you need both. So depending on what phase of developing a solution is, I would say if it's in the early phases of developing the solution for PTSD, then you probably want to tap into the lived experience of a whole bunch of people with PTSD diagnosis.
00:14:06
Speaker
And then as you go on and decide what the solution is, let's say you decided you want to try psychedelic acetic psychotherapy as a solution. solution Well, then it would be ideal to now also go speak to people who have been experiencing psychedelic acetic therapy to be go, like what does that look like? right So like really depending on where you are in the process of developing a treatment, I think you could tap into different forms of lived experience.
00:14:29
Speaker
Yeah, brilliant. And, you know, i'm i don't know how much you know about um what's happening in Australia with the lived experience movement here. I think you did say you knew a little bit about this. In Victoria, the state I live in, there was um a huge investigation into our mental health system.
00:14:48
Speaker
and And it's been going on, it was going on for quite a few years. And then they produced a report about changes to the mental health system. And one of the major things that was we need to bring lived experience perspective into service design, service development, right? And so that's been a big focus here. It's still tricky at times and it's not perfect, but we're really, the government has really put the focus on that area. so Oh, yeah. I would say Australia is probably one of the leaders in that. And there are a few countries that are doing well. I would say UK is doing well. Generally, like, northern European countries do better around that. And then Australia. So, like, actually, Canada of canada better than... United States is not not at all. I would say it's way behind on that. Canada is slightly better.
00:15:33
Speaker
ah so I would say, yeah, but the the downside of that is that what I've seen, and I've spoken to those working in Australia in the field, that is like... Also, like it's how you do it over there, you know and you speak to a few experts there. They feel like there's a lot of lip syncs around it. There's a lot of like, OK, make sure you just you throw that name in your application. So it's just little like, OK, we got that. So it's still a bit tokenizing, right which to me, it's still better than not doing it at all.
00:16:00
Speaker
right if you Even if you're just doing something, even if you're putting something out there, it just proves that governments are realizing that expertise that comes through academia It's not enough.
00:16:13
Speaker
It's needed, but it's not enough by itself. right You could be the world's best psychiatrist and you still have no idea what it feels to have addiction and to sleep on the street one night.
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah. Right? you know, and now you have a patient who's struggling with addiction and and then he comes to you and then here you are with your crazy salary and love, you know, like good life and like you're in the probably one, 5% of the world.
00:16:41
Speaker
And what helps therapy is apparently a therapeutic alliance. So how do you expect someone who's been homeless and struggling with drug addiction to develop therapeutic all alliance with the 1% of the world. It's just the gap is so much that there's no way they can actually truly connect, right?
00:16:59
Speaker
But if you take a psychiatrist resident and you have them go spend time with you know people that are on the street instead of sitting in a university class, well then something changes.
00:17:11
Speaker
Absolutely. i couldn't agree with you more. I think it's so, you know, it's so important. And i feel like here in Australia, you know, we are rolling out MDMA assisted psychotherapy for PTSD, of course. And and there's a lot of research trials. You know, there's not, there were when I started in the research space here, there wasn't many MDMA assisted therapy research trials, but there's more now.
00:17:38
Speaker
So we really need to be talking to people like you who've had the experience of going through those trials because the trial protocol is, of course, what's being rolled out to help understand and to build service delivery, right? yeah i am But I'm not sure that it happens enough. it's There's always room. I think in Australia, I have to say,
00:17:57
Speaker
The best places that I've worked are things like the Youth Mental Health Services. They've really got it they really I have to say, like Headspace, shout out to Headspace. They're really good at that. i'm But there's ah the adult mental health system. um I think there's still a lot of work there.
00:18:13
Speaker
Yeah, and in the addiction space, I think also is things are better. But you know again, I think while we are at the question of what is actually lived experience, i also want to mention that at times people feel like, oh, that means peers.
00:18:25
Speaker
like It just means like, oh, connect someone with TTSC with someone else with TTSC. Yes, that is definitely peer support. It's definitely one way, but it's just one thing, right? like To me, lived experience is just...
00:18:37
Speaker
not enough for someone to actually have experience of going through a treatment or let's say a mental health situation. That's an entry entry point. To me, it's the same way, right? It's like you even if you go become psychologist, you go and study, you get a master's in psychology, let's say, but you just still have to go get your license, right? So getting the master's is the entry point, but you still have to apply for the exam or licensing, I'm assuming, right? Before you can call yourself that, right? So to me, it's kind of like that, right? So so one so that's it's enough for someone to be like, okay, I've been struggling with depression. I've been trying SSRIs. I know about this.
00:19:13
Speaker
That's the entry point just for you to you know say, I have some lived the experience. But the magic happens when you can take that experiential learning and translate it into something that actually the scientists and the researchers and the physicians can actually understand and do something about it.
00:19:29
Speaker
That piece of the puzzle is missing, right? You still don't really have a good way of translating and bridging these two worlds, which is sort of what I'm trying to focus on these days. It's like, yes we don't just need more lived the experience input. We actually need more bridge building between sort of the clinical science and lived the experience, right? Because we have to learn how could we turn our insights into actually something useful.
00:19:55
Speaker
Yes, yes. And so there's lots of things I want to ask about this, but what do you think that might look like in terms of how, what that bridge could become and how lived experience perspective could shape the, maybe be the design, the delivery of these kind of psychedelic assisted therapy trials. Let's focus on the trials to start with for the easiest place to begin. yeah So I would say the easiest thing is thinking through where are decisions made? Like yeah every time there is a table where decisions are made at that table, well, there should be a seat for, well, not there should, there must be a seat for a lived experience, right? Even if that means a single person, two people, five people that hopefully a board of advisory board of people with multiple different experiences, right? Because even within the lived experience, you could have lived experience with psychedelics that went through
00:20:45
Speaker
well for you, you could have lived experience with a treatment that didn't go well for you, one that was sort of so-so, one that like it helped but also hurt, right? So like hopefully you have some sort of an advisory board and then maybe a representative, right? So that they're sitting at the table. So if there is a PI, a psychiatrist sitting there, if there's a psychologist sitting there, if there is a neuroscientist sitting there, well, hopefully somebody will live the experience more than one is also sitting there. So it's just a balance, right? So because in that way, they can always bring that perspective that otherwise they wouldn't. Because they have all these other professions, they have so much to think about and worry about and things to do. And these are some of the things that came from interviewing these experts for the summit I learned myself. Like even the ones that I thought share a lot about it,
00:21:31
Speaker
they admitted why it keeps going down the priority list, right? Because they have to do so much other things. So it's understandable for them that they can't be thinking about all the things at once, right? So like a yeah medical professional is going to think about all the things that have to do with medical world. The psychotherapist might think about all things have to do with the therapy framework, right? They can't think of like, how about the curtain? How about, where's the bathroom? How about...
00:21:55
Speaker
the the blanket type, how about getting the caregivers involved, how about like millions of other things that they just cannot be thinking about, but someone with the experience can't think about those things. So they can be like, oh, okay, cool, how about that?
00:22:09
Speaker
Oh, but we didn't think of that. And then they'll be like, oh, right. Where the bathroom? Yeah, that's important. We should think of a bathroom. Okay, wow. You know what I mean? And this doesn't stop coming out. There's research on this. I was part of a research where they discovered this was one of the key things for participants, the location of a bathroom.
00:22:25
Speaker
Oh, yeah. You know, and it's not in the conversations when they're making those decisions because they don't have representative, right? So it only afterwards that that somebody has to share the feedback and they're like, oh, and then they're like, okay, the next one, hopefully we can fix that.
00:22:38
Speaker
So it's just i around decision making. Every time there's a decision being made that, Because think about it, in the end, who are the main stakeholders, right? So the trial participants and patients eventually are gonna be the ones that have a lot to gain and a lot to lose.
00:22:53
Speaker
yeah to To the psychiatrist working on the study, to the psychologist, is another Tuesday at work. To the individual, it's their entire life, right? So when it works well for them, everything's at a stake, right? So it doesn't really make sense to them, decisions being made for you that impact you, but you had no representation there.
00:23:13
Speaker
So it's like living in a society is called democratic, but you don't have members of parliament that represents your area, whatever your system is. So it's just kind of like that. So it's like, it's really a dictatorship, if you ask me, you know, yeah because that because the individuals have no representation. So some people who decided that they have all the power because they have the money and the job title and whatever, make all the decisions that impacts everybody.
00:23:37
Speaker
yeah right So in a way, we need to bring back some more of democratic way of making decisions into the psychedelic trials too, I would say. Absolutely. And I think, ah um I don't want to take on too much of a side, I don't think this is a side quest, but you know yeah the system of academia and the way in which Randomised control trials are the gold standard for for good reasons, but I feel that they don't fit so well with the kind of human therapeutic research. And I could do a whole hour talking about that, but I feel like that's where...
00:24:13
Speaker
the lived experience voice needs to to come in but also people like like like me as a as a therapist who's also been involved in research trials is really important for us to and we do i i certainly sort of encourage the more qualitative interview human-based research side of things and you know i have to say at the at the clinical psychedelic lab the big trials i've worked on they have done both which is really important but that's just one side of it yeah that's just one side of it and um There's so many other areas. We had a bathroom issue in our first trial and it was, you know, we're working with what we've got at the university too, right? So that's, we were very lucky. We had a beautiful space, but the bathroom was pretty far away from where the dosing room was. And that was actually great for some people and not great for others. Yeah.
00:25:02
Speaker
And I'm glad you say that because that's a great example of when you know you can't really standardize this. This is why having a lived extremist advisory board is a necessity because even if you just have one representation, right?
00:25:14
Speaker
And that one person might be okay with walking extra to the bathroom. Well, then what? Now we're going to make that decision? And based on that one single person? Probably also doesn't make sense, right? So so you know what I mean? So we need to find a way that we could hopefully make better decisions. I think our decision-making process is what needs to improve more than anything else. And more representation, of course, helps with that because it's just more data, right? Exactly. And more opinions. You know, something I've seen, i worked for many years in refugee mental health and so in Australia, and we had a lot of advisory board models that would sort of feed into um
00:25:50
Speaker
different service delivery development etc but sometimes you end up with just the same people sort of to because they enjoy it because they have time or whatever and and they become the only voice from a community and that's not helpful either so it's quite important i think to do what you're saying to kind of spread um they do have different opinions and and and and spread the load as well because the other thing that i've certainly come across is that people can feel quite burnt out when they're the only lived experience person in in a space. here absolutely Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, I think um sometimes you actually, like I myself, met I think the input I can bring is good in certain areas, not so good in certain other areas. Sometimes knowing too much is not actually good.
00:26:36
Speaker
Sometimes you really want like someone's fresh experience, like, you know, someone who doesn't know the field. Like I right now know too much. So for me, I actually have to work more on system level things rather than my own individual.
00:26:48
Speaker
So i' I'm trying to now move away from my own individual ideas and the way that I thought things should be run. And I'm more at the system level and see like, how can I incorporate more? Which is why the summit came out, right? Because i' otherwise I could have just put something on and I'll just talk about things myself, right? So I think.
00:27:04
Speaker
That's important. Sometimes you just want to know someone's experience who doesn't even know what MAPS is, who's never heard of Rick Dublin's name, who's never been to a conference, who's never like listened to a podcast, they like you know but du they were just a PTSD patient that learned about this study and they're just like, that is very unique, right? But then you also want sometimes maybe input of someone like myself because I've spoken to so many other people because I get some of the system level stuff. you So you see what I mean? So like that's where if you just bring me, i don't think it's good enough. And the same way if you just brought the other guy, right? So hopefully, again, that's why we need we need to widen that, right? So that we can we can have more perspectives.
00:27:42
Speaker
Yeah, and as we're here, tell us a bit about the lived experience summit and bringing that together because um it was really fantastic to join for some of it. And you know I bought the package and I'm watching all the videos back at different times. And it's been a really great resource and actually um a lovely bit of feedback that I don't know if it made its way to you was from one of my colleagues who just really appreciated and felt like so much of what was being shared are things that we as therapists have intuitively thought of and felt. And so to have that kind of put out there in that way was really, really moving and and and affirming for a lot of us.
00:28:23
Speaker
Thank you for sharing it. Thank you, first of all, for being a part of it and joining it. Yeah, I've heard a lot of that too. so And the way it came out is that, so after I finished my own experience of participating in the study, you know maybe within a year or so, I just got approached by, like again, that time there wasn't just that many people like myself. So I got approached by others and I was offered to like, oh yeah, do you want to come share your story of this experience or this conference or that? So I began sort of like being this like public speaking I would say activities that I never had done before. right so but you know so I would go to conferences and I would just you know like either speak about my experience or I would check how other conferences are. And then eventually I started noticing how this tokenizing thing, I started noticing either the conferences that I was going to or the discussions that I was a part of, either leave the experience had no place at all, or you know like there was no patients and trial participants' representations. Or it would be like, oh, we have 160 therapists and doctors talking. I guess we need one patient there, right? Oh, here's a panel with six people. And then maybe we just need a single patient there, right? So i just realized that ah it was just being a best case scenario. I think someone told me it's like 90% of the time it's just not happening. 5% of the time is tokenizing. 5% of the time is actually done well.
00:29:41
Speaker
right So I noticed that 90%, yet that was just like completely missing. So I started looking at every major psychedelic organization from pharma to training to nonprofits. And I tell anyone to go check on for yourself. When you look at their advisory boards the nonprofit board or whatever board,
00:30:00
Speaker
there is absolutely zero representation of people with a risk. It's like it's 0.001 if there is. Right. So it's like it just doesn't exist. So it's just MDs and PhDs, MDs and PhDs or some business guy or some policy guy. i Right. So it's just.
00:30:17
Speaker
And then in the end, I was like, wow, like it's it's kind of crazy that everybody is like the whole field is built around what's going to happen to these patient populations. But then. me Where are the patients themselves? Like, why are these all these people just talking about us as if we're just a bunch of numbers?
00:30:35
Speaker
And nobody really knows what their story, especially when they're quantifying it. It's like nobody even knows what this is. Everybody's a part, this is some random participant number. You don't even know the name of this person. You don't know anything about their lives. And then people go on stages and they just talk about these as if,
00:30:49
Speaker
It was their own life. And I was just noticed this gap that I was like, wow, like, you know, I just feel like we're not paying enough attention. We're not really systematically capturing. We're not doing. I found out that none of the health regulatory agencies, they don't require qualitative research. Everything is quantitative. So qualitative work is just basically an x expense. It's an extra expense. It's not required. So nobody does it. Or at times they don't really want to know.
00:31:14
Speaker
Doing quality work reveals certain things that perhaps, depending on what agenda do you have, what kind of paper do you want to publish, you may not want to know. You may just want to show, you know, a distorted version of truth that fits with your agenda. Whether that age agenda is you're getting a drug approved or you're getting your PhD done or whatever the case is, there's some other agenda that you're trying to like,
00:31:39
Speaker
sort of like paints the picture towards your own narrative. So once I realized that and then I was like, okay, well then sort of what ah what could I do with that? I realized that the best I could do is instead of like doing more advocacy work around just psychotherapy as a solution for mental health, I realized that actually I needed to zoom down on this area, making sure that we're paying enough attention. And then by doing that is when I realized actually the bridge building is what was missing. I realized that it wasn't that we just needed to have these people. I realized that these people need to be talking to each other more.
00:32:11
Speaker
Like there should be more therapists talking to patients. There should be more trial more child participants talking to neuroscientists, right? And that just doesn't happen at none of the conferences that I went, right? um I was usually the one, right? so like And I was like, okay, if these people are not really talking to the end users or the customers or the clients or whatever you want to call them, if they're not talking to them, well, then how can you innovate for them?
00:32:36
Speaker
yeah yeah except Yeah, exactly. it's so It's so important. And so you put that you put the the summit out there, right? And so I'll put the link that so people can have a look and they can sign they can still sign up and and watch the videos. But what are the some of the most kind of meaningful things that you and surprising moments from kind of gathering all that information that you learned? Yeah, I mean, I think...
00:33:05
Speaker
solve the, I share maybe the surprises. So one of the surprises for me was, or something that perhaps just needed to happen was that because this conference, so maybe I'll just a little bit share more. So originally I wanted the conference to be only about patients and trial participants. I was like, I just want a conference where like all the speakers, all the talks, everything is on live the experience, right?
00:33:25
Speaker
Going through that process is when I realized, oh no, We need the experts too, right? Like we need two sides of the coin. Like I can't now, and otherwise I'm just going to make the same mistakes. I'm just going to double down on one side of the truth and dismiss the other side of the truth. So if anything, I realized this needs to be more about bridge building. And at times I actually got criticism from people. Like, oh, I thought this was supposed to be a lived the experience. How come you have all these therapists and researchers involved again, right? So some people didn't even understand it, right? I think those that didn't pay enough attention didn't actually watch the talks, probably anyone that judged it but by the cover. Usually that comes from those people. But those that did engage with it, they realized why.
00:34:02
Speaker
Because now I'm talking to the ones and I'm like, can you tell me why are you not doing this? What are the systemic issues? Why is this not happening? Or areas where this was happening, let's say in Australia, well, Paul, tell us, how is that happening? right Like, you know what's working over there? or Imperial College, you know Sarah, tell us what are you doing there? So there was actually pockets of this work that was happening already that this allowed a way for others to find out. We're like, oh, if they could do that at Portland VA, I guess we could also do that where we are. If they're doing that over there, maybe we could also do that. So I realized that this could also reveal both the gaps and the systemic issues as well as the opportunities.
00:34:42
Speaker
The solutions. And the solutions sometimes. or knowing like well yeah for Especially when it's global, right? Okay, what is the work in Australia? Could we do that in England or vice versa? And so and then you so that's the reason I decided to then sort of split it. those So I ended up with 27 patients and trial participants and 27 mostly therapists and researchers working in the field who I thought that they care more about this topic. But the surprising part was that because the conference wasn't organized by some big name and organizations behind it, it was fully independent and grassroots, is that
00:35:13
Speaker
the way these experts who normally had seen them speak at many different conferences around the world, they all spoke differently. They spoke as if like they didn't care somebody was watching. you know like yeah I felt like they were more themselves, right? So like they with the words they use, the way they would talk, kind of I felt like if like their shoulders were down, they were not worried about like,
00:35:35
Speaker
oh, like this is, I don't know, my you have a sponsor, what does this mean compared to what I'm working on? so Because it was coming from the community, actually, know, sort of like bottom-up approach. it So the surprising fact was that people were more themselves.
00:35:48
Speaker
um yeah that was That was sort of unexpected for me because I had seen them speak in other conferences. I'm like, wow, I've never seen you speak this way this way. Yeah, yeah, of course. And isn't that, that's the beautiful thing about doing this kind of interview, i guess. It's a little similar to the way that I do it on the podcast, you know, and I think yeah it's bringing out something that I've been sitting with, which is.
00:36:13
Speaker
it's it's interest yeah There is this kind of split between the lived experience and the professionals and the psychologists and the academics. And then also as well, you know, and in sarah in ah a lot of therapists come from that kind of wounded healer place where maybe they have had their own experiences, either with themselves or with a close family member. It's extremely common, but it's also not spoken about publicly that much. That's it. and And in the UK, where I trained, it was, i mean, this was a quite a long time ago, to be fair, it might have changed. It was 20...
00:36:49
Speaker
Plus years ago now, I feel old. and But when I trained, it was discouraged for us to share about our own experiences of mental health. and Even people that I know um had to kind of go through extra processes when they went to work the National Health Service because they had a history of mental health problems and they were becoming a psychologist.
00:37:11
Speaker
And so that's the systems level creating more separation, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. And I think, yeah, that that's definitely. So my favorite is actually, I call them professionals with the experience. Like those that, the the wounded healers, those that like, you know, like I love to work with the be a physician who is who also struggling with PTSD, right? Because that person would get you. That person is the perfect person to work with because they've been on the two sides, right? So they know something about it. So, but like you said, the systemic issues are that they got to worry about their license. I don't want to say something and now that, right? And then at times, actually, there are no, you know, you know I've spoken to now, I have most of my friends are now healthcare professionals that we license. and So I asked them, a lot of them, they're like, no, there isn't like there's actually any rules. Even a psychiatrist friend of here in Canada, he told me, he's like, I could totally tell my patient that I'm unnecessary and I'm depressed and all of that. There's no law or rules that it stops me, but it's just not common practice.
00:38:09
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Right? So I don't want to be the one that is going to now do something. And you know what I mean? So like, actually, the regulations are not really systemically stopping. It's just more the the culture around it, the way people have been doing it, the sort of a status quo that it stops that. And I think it's one of those things let's just call self-disclosure right therapy language i think it's just there's time for it and place for it i don't think it will it's one of those things that you should standardize for or against right as yeah you know i think it's just something between the two if you think it's in the it's going to help with the process then it makes sense you know in my own experiences there were times that i inquired about my own therapies in this study and i asked them personal questions and they answered and ah it did help me made me feel closer to them right but but yeah But they only revealed it in the sort of benefits of my process.
00:39:02
Speaker
Exactly. so And and that that's hard to standardize. Yes. But that's, I think, comes from, hopefully that's the kind of stuff from experience, from training as a therapist that you learn, because absolutely you wouldn't want your therapist, probably feel really unsafe, actually, if your therapist was like, yeah, I've got the, you know, yeah spilling the guts about their life. Yeah, for sure. Right? But I think i' interesting in the psychedelic work that I've done, i've probably have shared a little more of myself than i would in my general therapy practice, particularly around my own experience with the psychedelic therapy that I had as part of my training, because that
00:39:44
Speaker
feels really important to be able to say, yes, I've been on that couch where you are I've had the same psilocybin that you had had. We did that as part of our trial, as i'm that I think you know. um But I wouldn't share like the deepest, most painful, difficult parts of that, which which were part of that too, right? Yeah.
00:40:03
Speaker
Yeah. Because it's not all of fun games. No, for sure. I mean, yeah as far as clinical trials are concerned, I do want to mention that, you know, this is another thing that I realized through this process. Like every time i say leave the experience to people means different things. like A lot of times people feel like, oh yeah, but I'm taking MDMA in a festival too. Like I've heard this from therapists. Yeah. yes that as if they know what it feels like taking MDMA. Obviously off record, right? They're like, oh, I've taken MDMA. I know what it feels like. I'm like, you're taking MDMA in Coachella has nothing to do with taking MDMA in a clinical trial or amniotic as a psychotherapy for PTSD. With an infection.
00:40:36
Speaker
Right? Like it's just, no, no, just the first of all, the the intention is therapeutic, not party, not friends. It's like, who knows what you've been to. And, and you know, and the whole process of going through your clinical trial process, like consent form and showing up and these hundreds of things you got to do. That's a very unique, like back to types of the lived experience, the lived experience of going through clinical trial by itself is very unique.
00:40:59
Speaker
right It's not the same to get MDMS as a therapy for PTSD in Australia as part of the, let's say, the scheme that you have versus as part of a trial. Same country, it will be two different lived the experience. The one that you $30,000 and get it privately out of pocket today versus, let's say, the ones that are the infraclimates or first responders that might be a trial, right? So even in the same country, right the same regulator, same treatment, same compound,
00:41:26
Speaker
The two experiences are different because I met people here in Canada where so I got it through a clinical trial. I met someone here, got through a special access program, which is similar to what do you have in Australia. and and ah And when we speak about each other's experiences, I'm like, what?
00:41:41
Speaker
How is this the same treatment? Like yours was like so different. You had so much more that like they had a lot more wiggle room around like things they wanted to do, whereas in the trial is very strict. And that's if you got the active.
00:41:53
Speaker
Yes. Getting placebo? Well, I don't think there's ever going to be a healthcare professional out there who's ever been to reclinical trial and has received placebo. So most we have no idea, including myself, what it feels like to go to reclinical trial process, all the things, and in the end, end up with placebo.
00:42:13
Speaker
Like that by itself is another form of unique experience. Back to being surprises. One of the surprises that came up in the summit was that, like revealing this, what does it feel like even to have that lived experience, to go through that process. And then they tell you, well, you got to wait two and a half years before you can get that thing again. And it was like, well, I'm not going to, I just gave you a year of my life. I'm not going to wait another two and a half years, right? So like that by itself, yeah. Like you said, this was a special case of someone, right? it was a COVID time and all that. So,
00:42:43
Speaker
One of the surprising things happened, I think this panel is available. Since you have access, you should definitely watch it. So like it was a panel of ah phase three of MD-mastasis therapy for PTSD. So someone receiving placebo where they didn't like the experience versus someone receiving placebo, we thought they got the real thing. like These two experiences could be far from each other. It couldn't be farther from each other, right? Wow. Same trial.
00:43:05
Speaker
And then we have the psychiatrist from the site and um and then we had, let's say, the chief scientific officer of the company. So like this had never been done before. This outside of the summit or conference organizing would just never be done before. it would just be like, oh, that's too risky. You're not going to, you know, like the the lawyers will probably not approve anything like that. But like we made space for that. And for this one individual who who I just spoke about their case, for them, they just having that panel where they felt like the people responsible for this experience were there and they're still dare to validate, let's say, their experience was healing myself. So organized this panel as a way of like teaching people about this experience. Next thing you know, it's like, I'm crying, they're crying. like It was a deeply emotional experience because you just felt like you became this place for this individual to really feel validated that like their experience matters and perhaps they could have done things better
00:44:01
Speaker
You know, right? So these are some of the surprising things that came out of the summit that I just think like once we made that space for it, these sort of things showed up that like I could have never planned for. Yeah, absolutely.
00:44:13
Speaker
oh my goodness. I can, I just, you know, i my co-therapist and I, David Spector, were the two people that had the most placebo cases on our trial.
00:44:24
Speaker
So almost all of the people I worked with had placebo first, not all, but maybe I don't know, 70% of the people i took through um ah out of about 30.
00:44:36
Speaker
And, um you know, it's really challenging. Some people do think they got the real thing, which I find fascinating. Same. I know. With psilocybin too. Like it's really interesting, you know. i'm But...
00:44:51
Speaker
Some people found it really useful because they felt that they had longer to get to know us. people Particularly people where there was a lot of complex trauma in their background. um But of course, there's huge disappointment and people have to come off their psychiatric medications for these trials. And there was a lot of challenge. And so... I know that the clinical psychotic lab is really trying to avoid placebo trials. I'm not sure. I haven't watched Paul's interview. I'm not sure if he spoke about that with you, but he's really trying to not do that where where he can. I agree. Yeah. I think yeah I used to say it's borderline unethical. Now I gained the courage to say it is actually unethical. Like yeah we just need to stop taking people with serious mental health issues and then give them a hope of some sort of, especially treatment that has received public and media attention. If this was something no one has ever heard of, okay, sure. But something that like, like imagine being someone who received a placebo and then you hear the news and the headline when it's talking about this as a revolution. You're like, oh really? But I didn't get that.
00:45:58
Speaker
like that's not that's that's That's deeply hurtful to that individual. and Because you're like, what? was like and And this is somebody who's already struggling. Like now they have to feel like, you see how unlucky I am? I guess, yeah, I should really take care of my life. I guess I shouldn't really live here. Look, even when I try to heal myself, I end up in like, it just further goes back to those suicidal thoughts to like, I guess I shouldn't be here.
00:46:20
Speaker
You see, somebody was deserved it more than me. hey Thanks. And exactly. And I think, but I also, I think, um, You know, I learned so much from it as a therapist. And one of the things that I actually learned was that for me, if I'm working with somebody, i do want longer term therapy before I dose them. Absolutely. Because I do think...
00:46:43
Speaker
if For some people, even the ones who were disappointed, it was actually, it felt safer. and that you know So that's it a it's been a learning, but I agree. I think it's um unethical. I think it it speaks to this problem of randomized controlled trials designed originally for medication being used with people, not a pill. you know we're kind of wicked and They're designed for...
00:47:07
Speaker
pill only kind of treatments that don't involve psychotherapy, that are not relational. And so I wrote an s essay about this a million years ago in my doctorate. It's like one of my passions is like, actually, how do we change that system? And I don't think we're there yet. And I think it'll still be a long time. yeah Listening is there right. I highly doubt it. Whoever is...
00:47:28
Speaker
sort of approving these protocols if they actually ever even spoke to five people who received PlaceZero to know what it feels like. I doubted that person would be able to sign off on that protocol, just just listening to five people. Like if they actually watch some of these talks that I put together and these panels, like they'll just realize very quickly that this is cruel and we should stop doing that. Or at least you need to be a lot more careful the way that you're presenting it, your consent form, the way you're recruiting for your study. There's so many other pieces and the way you're like, like the the the public image of it, like all these things you have to really take into consideration.
00:48:03
Speaker
and and And then also what is called the crossover, right? So like if you're going to then give them the active, then that you want to minimize that period as much as possible. Not like, you know, like six months or 12 months or 18 months, you know, it's like some someone may not have that. And as like you said, but there's also people who I did interview who did receive placebo and they felt like it was okay. They felt like they got double the therapy because they were able to like wait a year and then they had more time. And they felt like by the time they did receive the active dose, they actually be sort of appreciated more. So it goes back to again, how big of a perspectives existed in sort of the spectrum of these lived experiences. And we can't just take one and make all of the decision based on one type. And we really need to like,
00:48:47
Speaker
bring them all together. And that's where hopefully your MDs and PhDs could help with solving the problem, right? This is what I tell people. I'm like, I'm giving you the data, use your fancy job title and your academics. Like you should be solving that problem, then not me. Like my job is to just tell you this problem exists, go solve it, please.
00:49:07
Speaker
Yes. yeah I'm joking, but obviously we have to solve it together. but Yeah, we have to solve it together. But also I think ah hopefully when things are you know moving out of trials, these some of these things can become easier, right? Like we're not going to be using placebo in the general population. But at the moment in Australia, the way that the system is working is that it is still...
00:49:30
Speaker
quite restrictive in the amount of sessions that you can have. However, there's much more flexibility. So clients are coming to see me um with doing, at the moment, I've got two people who are potentially interested in doing psychedelic therapy at some stage, but they wanted to work with me long-term first to feel safe and then...
00:49:50
Speaker
And that's the flexibility when you're not in a trial context. Exactly. Exactly. And I think um if you ask s me how the the best way to make these treatment expenses work is actually the most expensive way, unfortunately, right? yeah Because the best way would be that you would never take someone off the street and give them psychedelic therapy, whether it's in a trial or a clinic, I would argue.
00:50:13
Speaker
Like the best model would be that the individual is at your clinic or center already. So they're receiving their standard of care. They're already there. Let's say you're PTSD patient and you're receiving yeah EMDR or whatever, you know, the therapy you're receiving at the center.
00:50:29
Speaker
And now you're hitting some wall. Things are not working for you. you're not getting the results that you're reaching. Right. Let's say what we call treatment resistance. right Right. I don't like that label, but let's just so that people understand. Right. So when they're arriving to that point,
00:50:42
Speaker
Well, then now might be a good time, kind of like how antibiotics work. Like you don't just give someone Cipro day one, you try with like a smaller, you know, like safer antibiotic. You're like, let's see what happens. If that killed the infection, or okay, good. If not, they keep bringing bigger guns, right? So treat this little bit like that. So i actually don't think that makes sense to like even give somebody psychotherapy right after that.
00:51:03
Speaker
I don't know. i would just say, I don't know. It really depends on the context of the individual. But I do know, I think based on what I've seen in myself and others, is that if the individual was already at their center, already have support there, the there's some history, they've already worked through some things, they're somewhat destabilized to then go through this experience. If you see it as the closest thing to a surgery, Well, you don't just put someone through a surgery without knowing that they're somewhat stable to go through that, right? so yeah so so But that can be done at the center. Once they feel like they're stabilized, to now go through this sort of experience, which by itself could be destabilizing, right? Which, quite not any destabilization is bad because if you're stabilized in your depression thoughts, perhaps destabilizing you out of that is a good thing. Let's check this thing, right? But once you let it settle,
00:51:54
Speaker
Well, then what happens? Well, then now the individual goes through the experience and then they they're back in the same system. They're still remain at the same clinic and the center. i'm not I'm not calling this preparation and integration. This is pre preparation before preparation and integration after integration yeah in that what we normally call preparation integration, if that makes sense, right? It just means that- yeah you're so You're still going to be dealing with the same team.
00:52:17
Speaker
You're part of the same system. You just happen. And that's how regular medicine also works, right? I have a primary care doctor. I have, let's say, family doctor. And I go to my family doctor. Now I need a need for a specialist. And now the specialist shows up, does some things. Let's say I once had, a actually during my my trial, I ended up with some gastro in the middle of the study. And then in the toilet, I fainted.
00:52:42
Speaker
Like I just have no memory of it. And I just have, you know, my daughter was a small, I guess something she brought up from daycare and i I broke my nose. you know it's the ouch oh tear I don't remember and I went to the surgeon.
00:52:56
Speaker
appointment was three minutes. that So I went to the normal doctor. He's like, no, you need to see this surgeon. like He knows what to do, whatever. right And this guy just walked through the room for three minutes, just did something to my nose and walked out. He didn't talk to me. like He didn't care. He was just so specialized in this one thing. right but But I could have not just gone to him right out of the street.
00:53:16
Speaker
I would have panicked. I'm like, what? like you know so I needed something before. I knew I was at this hospital already. had one regular doctor. I knew that this guy going to come do something on me and and then I'm still protected and supported, right?
00:53:29
Speaker
So kind of, I think this is the way to do psychotherapy would be the same way so that the individual knows that even if now they're not stable after the therapy, they they have that support.
00:53:41
Speaker
It's the same care, the same people, so they can continue, right? Unfortunately, that's the most expensive way to do it. Yeah, yeah, that's right. but But I think it makes so much sense to me and I feel that that would be a really great way to do it. And I hope it's kind of where we're going. There'll be different versions of that, I think. um But in a way, I guess the clients who I was speaking about are kind of doing that. Like they' they're here, they're working with me and then we'll well we'll transition into that space later and then come back to me maybe or not if they don't want to, right?
00:54:11
Speaker
That's fine too. Not everyone needs lots of therapy afterwards, but some people do.
00:54:17
Speaker
So i want to ask as well ah to take us back into this kind of track, you know, what you've been advocating for lived experience for quite a few years now, what's been some of the challenges that you've kind of come up against? And you talked about tokenistic kind of use before, which I think is something really important.
00:54:39
Speaker
Like what's not tokenistic? and And we've covered some of that, but maybe that will kind of flow bit more into the challenges question as well. Yeah, I can actually say so. I think this also is connected to what you asked would be surprising. So to my surprise, after doing this conference, to the the summit that I did, the people and the professionals more interested in what I was doing ended up being pharma.
00:55:02
Speaker
More than anything else, to my surprise, here I am thinking hey surprising other therapists and training organizations and clinics and all these other people are going to care more about this. And why would pharma care about this? Turns out like not one training company actually reached out and say, yeah, you know what? We're training psychedelic therapists. Makes sense that they have access to this, right? Like we're literally training them how to hold space for people. No, yeah they didn't. And then pharma shows up, like the most like classic pharma, what new pharma offer. They're like, you know what?
00:55:35
Speaker
You're doing something very interesting. We need more of this in the world. So this came to me as a surprise to me that I was like, oh, okay, I guess... my my understanding of the world is really distorted, you know, so to my surprise. And so so I think, yeah, so one of the best ways that this, the challenge was this, that I actually, it's not knowing where this could work and not know. So like I actually, for many, many years, i was actually feel like i was putting my attention in the wrong places.
00:56:03
Speaker
Right. like Like this summit experience actually proved to me, like, who are the people and professionals that actually care about this versus those that just talk about it or those that, you know, so like to my surprise, there were individuals and organizations who I considered my supporters and people that I felt like they they deeply care about this. Right. And they i got less support from those and I got more support from let's say certain individuals and organizations that I trying to stay away from because I thought they had money agenda or they didn't care about this work and they ended up caring more.
00:56:38
Speaker
That's interesting, isn't it? I know. Wow. I'm also surprised by that, but also it's like, it's a good surprise. I know. i'm I'm really glad. Like, I'm really glad that they were interested. So I think ah that was, you know, so one of the best ways is now, so I'm helping some of these companies now develop let's sort of advisory board of people with experience. So as they're developing, the especially those in the early phases of developing new, let's say, um drugs for for any sort of health indication, it's like, well, then let's start doing this right off the bat. So the challenge is, I think the lack of,
00:57:12
Speaker
So the main challenge is, so if I'm on the other side, let's say I'm a psychologist, I'm a psychiatrist, whatever, I have a license, there is that there is a licensing board, there's ethics, there's governance, there's like like like, you know how to deal with those people because they have to do things in some standard ways.
00:57:28
Speaker
The flip side on the other side of the table with people like myself is a wild west, right? Because there's no one organization that represents us. We don't have a licensing way. we ah you know Everyone can't say anything. So it's like in a way, it actually makes it harder for people to it event want to incorporate this because they don't really know. like They're like, should I pay you for this? How much should I pay you for this? Is this even actual expertise? like So we don't really have. So in the future, what I've been hopeful to develop one day is that we have locked something like a College of Physicians or let's say College of Psychologists. for people who live the experience. So hopefully one day we could standardize a level of training and certification for these people, right? So that they could be like, let's say someone could be like, oh, I want to go more work working in policy. Well, okay, here's maybe some training specific to that. And then here's how you should speak about your story, right? If somebody wants to work in research, then for them to learn like, okay, what should you say? What should you not say? The expectation bias, and other that like like I said, like it's not enough for someone to just have that experience. They have to go learn some other ways to like again like knowing like what what remains my experience and what can actually be translated into something useful so I think some of the challenges that we're currently missing this this link between between these two right like taking the experiential and finding a way to so which is sort of what I'm working on I'm like I think as a result of this summit was I and identify the area where this could actually happen so I'm sort of actually trying to solve that problem right now
00:59:00
Speaker
That's great. So inspiring. And so, you know, and also, you know, I think the other thing that I think is really important is just from my forays in this world, a little bit in the mental health space is making sure that any kind of lived experience practitioners who are working or employed, say, in a space that and also have support, right?
00:59:24
Speaker
Because and i think that what you shared, like what's your story and what's useful and also what do you feel okay to share about your story? Because I've also seen...
00:59:35
Speaker
i'm in places that shall remain nameless, ah people kind of being taken into a place where they're asked to share way too much, um then that they feel safe to share and and in a way that doesn't feel appropriate, that then they're not given that support or training on how to how to work that out.
00:59:52
Speaker
yeah Exactly. And I've been on those panels myself. I've been with those people where they went on stage, they shared something. I myself too, right Because it's, again, it's like these were, it's so much easier to go on stage or a podcast or somewhere else and talk about your work.
01:00:07
Speaker
But yeah. not so easy to go on a stage on a podcast on Star Wars and talk about the dark night of the soul and your you know your suicidal thoughts and like all sorts of challenges that someone might be feeling. right So like at times, even I feel like the organizers, right whether this is a research organization or a conference or a nonprofit, they don't really understand. To them it's like, oh, well, I'm just bringing another speaker.
01:00:30
Speaker
I'm like, no, you're not just bringing another speaker. Like, it's not the same, right? So like, so like maybe you, if you're going to have such a panel, if you're going to have, you know, that individual, do you really have some support for them afterwards? Right? Like, you know, could they call somebody? Are the peers that are available? You know, so like these are some of the challenges again. So like the the problems are not actually known enough to the more professionals for them to really know how to grasp it at the event.
01:00:57
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. you know When I started this podcast, I was talking to everyone about it and quite a few people said to me, or you know would be great because the the premise of the podcast beyond the trip is to kind of really elevate the importance of psychotherapy. Actually, that was the original thing as a part of not just the dosing, as a part of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, because there are a lot of whispers or shouts in the field about reducing it. to just the dosing and a bit of supportive something, supportive presence. And the way that I work and that we work in the clinical psychotic lab ah is much more psychotherapy focused. I think it's really important.
01:01:35
Speaker
And so a bunch of people said to me, Maybe you should get some people on to talk about their experiences, you know, some, some trial participants or clients.
01:01:45
Speaker
And I haven't done that. And I haven't asked you today about your experience only because I'm, I mean, you're so welcome to share anything that you want to, but I i but I don't know, it's always such a tension for me because I enjoy hearing that. It's really, really helpful.
01:02:01
Speaker
But it feels ethically tricky for me because of some of the things that I've seen when it's gone wrong and the pieces I've picked up with clients who perhaps... done something like that or it just it feels ethically complicated yeah yeah let's put it that way and I agree I'm with you even even in the work that I'm doing myself I feel like again it's just we haven't understood the ethical considerations around that how do we do it at times unfortunately it becomes like a testimonial right like especially in the retreat space even if it's a legal retreat somebody goes there and then six months later three months later they're giving a testimonial about their experience in the sort of the honeymoon phase when they haven't really reintegrated in their life again. You know, like even that, like when should you share your story? We don't know.
01:02:44
Speaker
Even if you were to do that, is three months enough, six months enough? Should you could wait 12 months? like Like, you know what I mean? Like there's so much unknown even, even if for someone. And I've done that myself. Like I look back the first time I shared my story, I think it was like,
01:02:57
Speaker
maybe around less than six months and I feel like now I have i so i watched that time I was like oh my god Kendall Lachey did that like I knew nothing about this experience like I had just come out and I needed a bit more time to actually let it settle and actually be really you feel what just happened right so yeah I think it's very ethically complicated And again, because there's no guidelines and rules or anything around it, and at times people actually get exploited. And this is both on the positive side and the negative side. We've seen it in the field on both sides, right? When somebody had a positive experience and they got exploited because of that, you know, now they become like a brand ambassador for a company or a retreat.
01:03:35
Speaker
On the flip side, you had someone where you went really bad for them and then the journalist and the media loves that. And then now they go and exploit their suffering, which if you ask me, that's probably the most disgusting thing someone could do to take somebody else's mental health challenges and suffering and exploit that to build their newsletter or social media following or whatever they're doing. Or that podcast. Or podcast or whatever thing is. Right. So like. That's probably the most evil thing someone could do under the name of patient advocacy whatever. And we've seen that. But I think, unfortunately, again, because we haven't had a place where these people could be represented, where these people know where to go and what to do, then it's a bit of a wild west. And of course, with that, people people get taken advantage of. People risk themselves. And yeah, fortunately, we've seen all of that. And we haven't really figured out how to solve those problems yet.
01:04:26
Speaker
No, because it's also useful for people to hear from people who have sat in a medicine session and had a dosing, a little bit about what it's like. And, you know, I shared a little bit about my experience because I thought, okay, that's mine. I'm happy to do that. You know, that feels safe and okay to me. Yeah.
01:04:46
Speaker
But i yeah, i mean, there's there's plenty of podcasts that interview clients, you know, people interviewing their clients. And I really enjoy listening to those, but I just don't feel that I can do anything like that. That's not my aim at all. yeah Yeah. Yeah. No, I get it. That's fair.
01:05:01
Speaker
Yeah. i'm And is there anything? So we're coming up to the end soon, but there's probably more questions that I didn't get to. I sent us a big, long list there. So is there anything that we haven't talked about that you really want to share um that you think would be helpful?
01:05:16
Speaker
I mean, yeah, but I just want to leave a message. For those that working in the field, the professionals, I just think, yeah, my advice is unsolicited advice is do more listening. like just Just listen more to those that you're trying to serve. you know like um ah As long as they're not just working in a vacuum somewhere in the lab and closed doors and just like open the doors, offer a seat, go out there, speak to people. like like like They need to listen more than reading. There's a lot of reading the papers, there's a lot of reading the headlines, but not enough of actually listening.
01:05:51
Speaker
And that's for them. And I think for those of, you know, people with lived the experience, whether patients and child participants, I would all, yeah, just be like, be careful, first of all, like, you know, that you want to talk about this. This is something really you want to do. You know, you can't really go back when something is online, you know, it's online and all that. Like, really make sure this is something you want to do with your life. And then,
01:06:10
Speaker
figuring out maybe what area do you want to do this? Is it more in the policy? Is it more in research? Is it more in practice? Is it more in education? Like figuring out where it's sort of like your story makes sense, right? And, you know, maybe maybe you're a first responder. Well, then maybe it makes sense for you to do more live the experience advocacy for first responders, right? So like trying to they connect somehow to your own personal story and then finding your own unique voice to do things like that and getting involved locally, wherever you are, to see what are some opportunities to do that. And of course, um Psychedelic Experiences, which is the initiative that I run, is a platform for them to, if they feel comfortable to share their stories and be a part of what we're doing, then of course, they're more than welcome to get in touch. Yeah.
01:06:52
Speaker
and And yes, I'll put the link to that in the show notes. There's some really great resources. And what's next for that with you? So I'm organizing this year's conference and i'm probably going to make some chip sort of changes to the formatting. So I'm literally just working on that as we're recording this. And be i'll be I'll be announcing that all in April, hopefully.
01:07:13
Speaker
Great. That's really exciting. I'm so glad to hear that. Can't wait. And um I'm ah still enjoying the ones from the first conference. So thanks so much for your time. It's been so wonderful to have you on on the podcast. And um I feel like I could keep going with this conversation. That was such an area of interest for me. So hopefully we can talk again. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. We can always do a part two. Yes, exactly. i've done a few of those actually. it's been It's been really nice. For sure. Yeah, no, thank you for having me here and yeah, for for inviting me and it's been a p pleasure to connect with you.
01:07:51
Speaker
No problem. Thanks for listening. if you're interested in following along on the journey with me, check out my Instagram or website details listed in the show notes.
01:08:04
Speaker
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