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Dr Marg Ross: Edge of life: Part 2
188 Plays1 month ago
Welcome to Part 2 of my interview series with Dr Marg Ross, clinical psychologist and Chief Principal Investigator of Australia’s first psychedelic-assisted therapy trial exploring psilocybin for end-of-life distress.
Marg has trained therapists and medical professionals around the world in psychedelic-assisted therapy and palliative care, bringing a deep interest in cultural rituals, altered states of consciousness, and the meaning-making processes that arise at the end of life. Her work is also informed by learning from Indigenous medicine practitioners, shaping a more expansive understanding of healing and human distress.
In our conversation, we explore psychedelic therapy as a profoundly existential experience—one that invites awe, perspective shifts, and deep personal growth. We talk about the importance of preparation, the cultural and relational dimensions of suffering, and what her research reveals about how people can transform their relationship to death and dying.
We also reflect on the role of documentary in capturing these intimate journeys, and what it means to witness this kind of care in practice.
Find Marg at
https://www.studioimmersivetherapy.com.au/
Edge of Life Documentary – out on Apple TV
Paper on Trial results - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40858059/
Keep in touch with me at
Beyond the Trip Podcast available anywhere you listen to Podcasts:-
https://open.spotify.com/show/5g1sms2EXq72NW64nVQhzC?si=ff3548af32e84bf6
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BeyondtheTrippodcast
Insta: dresmedark
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-esme-dark-627156a0/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Beyond the Trip' Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Beyond the Trip, a psychedelic therapy podcast with me, Dr. Esme Dark. During this podcast, I'll be bringing you conversations with thought leaders and other inspiring humans, exploring a wide variety of themes relating to the use of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy in the healing of human distress.
00:00:27
Speaker
Whether you're an aspiring therapist, already a therapist, or just simply interested in the emerging field of psychedelic therapy, then this podcast is for you. Join me for a journey into the psychedelic world.
Acknowledging Traditional Custodians
00:00:43
Speaker
Before we get started, I want to take a moment to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the unceded land on which this podcast is recorded, the Wadawurrung people. I pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging. And I extend that respect to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.
Clinical Trial Insights with Dr. Marg Ross
00:01:04
Speaker
Hi everybody and welcome to this episode, which is the second part of my conversation with Dr. Marg Ross. This is ah part two, so if you haven't listened yet to part one, i would really recommend heading back and listening to that episode before this one.
00:01:23
Speaker
This interview took place about a year, just less than a year after the first one, and in this episode, she's able to discuss more about the results of the clinical trial that she was mentioning in part one.
00:01:37
Speaker
So, Dr. Marg Ross is a clinical psychologist and was the chief principal investigator of Australia's first psychedelic-assisted therapy trial, exploring psilocybin, assisted therapy for end-of-life distress.
00:01:52
Speaker
Marg has trained therapists and medical professionals around the world in psychedelic-assisted therapy and palliative care. She brings a deep interest in cultural rituals, altered states of consciousness, and the meaning-making process that arises at the end of life.
00:02:10
Speaker
Her work is also informed by learning from indigenous medicine practitioners. um And this shapes her more expansive understanding of healing and human distress.
Impact of Psychedelic Therapy on Existential Experiences
00:02:23
Speaker
In this conversation, we explore not only the results of the the trial that we spoke about in part one, but we also explore the fact that psychedelic seup therapy is a profoundly existential experience, one that invites awe, perspective shifts, and deep personal growth.
00:02:43
Speaker
We talk about the importance of preparation, the cultural and relational dimensions of suffering, and what her research reveals about how people can transform their relationship to death and dying.
00:02:56
Speaker
We also reflect on the role of the documentary that she was a part of and what that was like in in her work and in capturing these intimate journeys that the participants went on.
00:03:09
Speaker
And we talk about what it means to witness this kind of care in practice. I always really enjoy my conversations with Marg, so I really hope that you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it.
00:03:23
Speaker
Marg. Welcome back. It's so so lovely to have you back on the podcast. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me again. i um Yeah, I think we we went, what, nearly two hours?
00:03:37
Speaker
was a marathon. Yes, yes, but still not enough. And I think, you know, when I was listening back to that episode, I realized that in that I said, I'd love to have you back on once your results are published and you can talk about the results of the trial a little more. And so many things has happened. We recorded that last episode back in April. And so now we're in January 2026. And it's been a huge sort of almost a year, 10 months for you, right? Six months, don't even know what that is. But it's been a big time. Lots has happened. Yeah. So you've published the results. You've also, there's a documentary that's been released and you've been spending time in
Trial Results: Mental Health Improvements
00:04:23
Speaker
Brazil. So yes, yeah, it's been a year. Let's start with the results.
00:04:27
Speaker
Yeah, well well... They were out. It's kind of like giving births in a way. um um Yeah. So, what can say? we We were elated. um Obviously, a small Phase 2B study, we had 35 participants who were diagnosed with terminal illness, um stage 4 cancers or um advanced non-malignant diseases. And, yeah, they were...
00:04:55
Speaker
um experiencing depression or anxiety you know sufficiently that it was impacting the quality of life and we uh basically did a randomized control um placebo control trial double-blinded so we had no idea they had no idea what they were getting uh for that first dose and then we followed them up for about six seven weeks and then we offered everyone an open label dose just ah in the event that they got the placebo and and weren't able to experience the full treatment. So that also allowed us to to do a one-dose versus two-dose comparator. And even though it's not as clean as, say, placebo-controlled experience, you know, the the active against the the placebo in a blinded experience, you know,
00:05:46
Speaker
it still gave us a lot of information. So we were absolutely thrilled with our results. We had big reductions in depression, anxiety, demoralisation, hopelessness, um and big increases in spiritual wellbeing and quality of life. So we were elated and obviously mystical experiences. We're off the charts. ah So, you know, this are just all round really, really happy and obviously their results were significant but our effect sizes, you know, which sort of looks at the magnitude of change that took place for people, we had enormous effect sizes, um which was great.
Role of Music and Participant Transformations
00:06:26
Speaker
And, you know, again,
00:06:28
Speaker
um all the kudos to the participants who who worked their asses off, they confronted very, very difficult terrain. ah and so worked with it in such a way that they could weave it into something so meaningful and deeply personal and um and profoundly transformative for them um as they faced their mortality. So, um yeah, and, um yeah, we had some qualitative results that that have also just been published as well, um experiences of music in a psychedelic um state.
00:07:05
Speaker
and um how music is experienced um with psilocybin. So we did a lot of qualitative interviews around that. And we also spoke about how people really shifted their perspective on their illness and dying the the before we weekally interviewed them before and then after they had had um psilocybin. So, yeah. was a lot of data. It took us a long time. So I was relieved I was drank quite a bit that night when I was accepted at publication. I bet. was celebration. Yeah. and great So, yeah, it was it was phenomenal. But, you know, that it it was just kind of the the cherry on top, the real the real transformation and the real um learning that took place for me was with the patients in the room and watching them through this process.
Integrating Scientific and Indigenous Perspectives
00:08:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:02
Speaker
Yeah. I remember being really struck by way you talked about it. I saw you speak about some of the findings at the NAPS conference, Northern Australian Psycho-Lectic Science that we were both at. And was just so deeply moved by the way that you talked about all of that actually. And I bawled my eyes out, by the way, all of your presentations. As so many other people.
00:08:27
Speaker
No, it was great. It was beautiful. But but it's it's it's, you know, the research data is so important for many reasons, but it's the human side of it that you were talking to and sharing and sharing that is so powerful.
00:08:42
Speaker
yeah The thing that I really, you and I think, you know, it's wonderful to see things, you know, the benefit of hindsight. And I was very new, obviously, to a complete babe in the woods when I started. You know, people were like, oh, yeah tell us about psychosis and therapy. And I'm like, I don't know. I just got here. So, you know, having gone through that now and i um a couple of studies and and doing PAP privately now,
00:09:08
Speaker
um I realise we're sort of this real thing in the West about striving for certainty. We need to know. and um with her the the The experience ah of PAPs, you can never, i shock the the answers are so profound and they're so expansive and it's, you know, the thing I've come away with is this.
Psychedelics: Treatment or Spiritual Journey?
00:09:34
Speaker
I'm very very much more relaxed about trying to know or explain or or have certainty around things. Yes.
00:09:41
Speaker
to To sort of say now, I don't, ah I think it's not a treatment. I think it's an existential experience, very profound one.
00:09:54
Speaker
ah don't want to call it a treatment for depression or anxiety. i think it's an existential experience and the side effect is that it can improve your mental health. Yes.
00:10:07
Speaker
That's the way I like to keep at it now. Yeah. Yeah, i I agree with you. i think because maybe the thing that's causing the distress is maybe some or part of what's causing the distress is maybe some kind of existential injury or spiritual kind of injury in some way.
00:10:26
Speaker
You know, think... I think that's a really important frame for it, you know. And I think we we we want to call it a treatment and it fits within our medical models to do that. Yeah, absolutely. But actually there's a real tension, you know, also doing psychedelic assistive therapy privately and there is a real tension because people come to to us with this kind of ah quite medicalised often, you know, that they've they've seen understandably been given the diagnosis and that's why they're there and that's why they need to get the treatment. But it's it's not really, sometimes I feel the first part of preparation is like, well, it's not going to be like when you have an antidepressant and just go home, you know. Absolutely. There's actually a lot more to this. Yeah.
00:11:09
Speaker
and that's And that's the problem with that. It's just become this, you know, like we' we've now put it in a consulting room. Yeah. But it's, you know, it's wild. Like, we have no idea where it's going to go as, you know. the So, yeah. um and But you're right. i mean, we we have to speak both languages. We need the that Western kind of, you know, biopsychosocial model way of understanding it in this framework, right or wrong, whether we agree with or That is just something we have to learn and properly.
00:11:43
Speaker
But I've realized how how essential it is to not let go of um
00:11:52
Speaker
where it came
Dr. Ross's Research and Indigenous Practices
00:11:53
Speaker
from. um Yes. And I want to ask you all about that in a moment. But I actually just want to say massive congratulations um on the results and bursting this baby that you worked on for how many years in the making? I think it's seven years in the end. I've been, seven years. Probably, yeah. And you breathe it. Like you just, you can't, like you sleep, you wake up, it's there, there. What if I don't do? You know, when you I'll never be a chief investigator ever again. and And love to all my friends who are chief investigators because, God damn, that was the hardest stuff I've ever done. um
00:12:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. yeah yeah Yeah. It's a huge job, isn't it? Yeah. I work as a therapist. I would never do that again, though. It's huge. It's huge. Your names on, your signatures on everything. that You're in charge of all the boring stuff that that doesn't get talked about.
00:12:49
Speaker
um but Yeah. Yeah. yeah Yes, like it yes i can imagine. and yeah and And, you know, I i was really, i loved how you spoke about kind of measures around wellbeing as well, not just the kind of looking at looking at improvements in wellbeing, not just ah mental health getting better. Because I think that's also a really important facet that I think is is good to highlight.
00:13:13
Speaker
right and it It is. so you know Yeah, we... we we think it's just about kind of ah editing out depression, editing out anxiety depression.
00:13:26
Speaker
or muting those symptoms, the symptom reduction, and I think I said this in the talk, you know, we can, we can mute your symptoms. You just sedate the apple ah or you give them something that blunts it, doesn't get to the core of what's going on. And so for me, it's, it's so much more ah in terms of the, the growth and the enriching experiences that, that, you know, people can come away with and it's profound. So i think, you know, to, to say it's a, It's a treatment or it's a, you know, that that implies symptom reduction.
00:14:00
Speaker
um But I actually think psychedelics are not about symptom reduction. They're about transformation. Yeah. And when you're talking about transformation, it means obviously, and again, it's sort of saying it to you, you know this, you're and you're a leader in this field. the the but that The importance of preparing people for this, it's a quest. yeah It's like, yeah.
00:14:28
Speaker
they're in their personal myths and they're, you know, this sort of rich kind of, um I guess, archetypal, symbolic remix of of events and this very vivid experience.
00:14:41
Speaker
i um yeah Yeah, I think that that so much needs to be said about how we prepare people for transformation um yeah and can we move away from just crunching this into numbers. um Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I think that I i completely agree with you. and I've spoken about it on here before. It's a very different frame of preparation in many ways, right? But I think it's important, you know, seeing it as that hero's journey or heroine's journey or just a human's journey into like something really hard and then coming out the other side differently.
00:15:18
Speaker
Having like a different person, you know. And that the the beauty of that as well, i think is, which sort of occurred to me later on, is that we have this idea that if I just do this, it'll be fixed.
00:15:30
Speaker
If I just get rid of the depression, i've i've I've made it. I'm there. We never get there. Like we can reduce things. We can change things. we can But, ah you know, the idea of ah of a quest is ongoing. Yeah.
00:15:44
Speaker
The story continues. ah You may learn, you may grow, youll but the story continues. You still have to do work beyond the dose day. And that's one of the first things I will say to people is that the the the dose day is one day.
00:15:56
Speaker
It's not going to be completely and magically change absolutely everything. There's work to do. It's effortful. um And it continues and it may spur on another journey again taking your life into a different direction or whatever it is but a sense that that it's ongoing um that you're not just going to get the magic result ah which yes is an important part of our ah preparation with people who come in with that idea 100% yes I think it's really important into and
00:16:35
Speaker
What are your but reflections from, you shared something, but like from a personal and professional space having now birthed this into the world?
Indigenous Wisdom and Psychedelic Therapy
00:16:46
Speaker
Like what do you, what was what was hardest about it and what most surprised you about it?
00:16:52
Speaker
Oh, God. We're supposed to keep this to half now. I don't know. Sorry. she I'm not good at that. say oh look i I've been left with, in a nutshell, the main bullet point of the presentation is this. I've been left with much more in the way of questions than I have answers.
00:17:11
Speaker
And how glorious, you know, it completely eludes, you know. ah The more you search, the more you ask. Yes. I've just become more and more curious about it. But also I kind of I think I've relaxed ella my need to feel like I've done it in a certain way or, you know, I have the certainty around it or I can...
00:17:36
Speaker
um Yeah. Yeah. So I think I'm i'm pleased that it's done. I'm very happy that we were able to to offer the treatment and we were able to witness phenomenal humans, um beautiful, yeah incredible participants.
00:17:54
Speaker
um And like what a privilege to learn from from them. So that was that was phenomenal. But yeah, completely um yeah completely changed and and dismantled.
00:18:07
Speaker
who I was. That in addition to spending time in South America, um yes working with Indigenous teachers as well. Let's talk a bit about that because because we're talking just, you haven't, when did you, you have only recently come back from Brazil, is that right? you just Yes. Recently. yeah So I did. i been I've been three years in a row now ah for for a short period, but ah one of those times being in the Amazon, um
00:18:38
Speaker
and and ah up in the northern areas of Brazil in Acre. um And then, yeah, but more recently, not in the Amazon, but with Indigenous teachers, and it was, ah you know, really, really profound. that the way that they understand this is so different and uh quite um initially a bit jarring a little alarming i guess um to that to to western mind and then if you just kind of go okay you know i'm just going to put the western mindset to the side and really immerse myself in this and it is it was phenomenal um
00:19:22
Speaker
And very difficult to to wrap a linguistic wrapper around it. um Yeah. And and all I'll say is i I don't think, because I went there in a way kind of to kind of integrate all that I'd witnessed in the study. I mean, think these...
00:19:38
Speaker
Participants coming out, you know, taking their headphones off, taking their eye shades off and saying, I just saw my dead husband. I just did da-da-da.
00:19:49
Speaker
Oh, my God, I saw myself getting reborn again and again and again. i didda yeah so And you're witnessing this all the time. You're like, why is that? So i had some integration to do as well. Yeah.
00:20:01
Speaker
and and The idea of integration. Well, it was an interesting one because I was like integration kind of this thing where you go, okay, well, it's going to help me grow and expand and whatever else. it It didn't do that for me. It completely dismantled me.
00:20:18
Speaker
And what I thought I knew. yeah So coming back, it was a ah very interesting experience, but I was is extremely fortunate to see a little of how you know, what I could understand because obviously can sometimes ask questions that you don't know. like it's it's It's a difficult way to sort of how it can translate. But, you know, from what I could ask about and what I could observe and have the privilege of listening to in terms of how they understand there the the altered, you
00:20:59
Speaker
you know space It's completely different. You know, we would go, oh that person had an ego death. They don't see that. at all. It's a completely different experience. so ah um And and the the way that they kind of navigate that that space that people go and you when they're in the altered state.
00:21:21
Speaker
And it's for them it's like another world or another ah way of being in existence. And so I don't think we have it as such a um
00:21:35
Speaker
ah I don't think we give it the same reverence Yeah. In the West. Yeah. i think it's so much that... we could say about this, right? And I think that that kind of ah in the field, you know, people like Simon Raffel at Onaya are kind of bringing the Indigenous wisdom and Western science together, which is, but you know, and it's such a beautiful thing. And and it's hard sometimes to kind of yeah dance that dance.
00:22:04
Speaker
um yeah And, you know, so many of the concepts maybe we don't have the a words for. No, they're what they're talking about. We don't have the same black literal words or concepts to understand each other. they Exactly. Our frameworks don't match. So when they say something or offer a teaching and it doesn't fit or you're you're trying to compute it and you're like, oh, God, you know. way it' so How do I do that? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, that there it just made me go, oh, God, we don't know.
00:22:35
Speaker
There's so much. We just don't know. Yeah. yeah And I think we can know the safety parameters and all the practical aspects and that kind of thing. But um the way that they ah understand that landscape is is very, very different. Yeah.
00:22:54
Speaker
Yeah. yeah And I think, you know, I think it's it's really great to see more and more people talking about this and and bringing that kind of, trying to bring more reverence. I think you're right. I don't think we have traditionally had that same reverence or maybe the ceremonial aspects have been missed. But I think more and more I hear people really wanting to bring that into the work here in Australia and there's great people kind of championing that from the Indigenous perspectives here. But but also, you know,
00:23:26
Speaker
I think there is something really important about kind of holding that space of reverence and and ceremony and and the mystery, you know, like ah someone comes out of earth and said, I just sat down and and I had tea with the gods, you know. yeah I was like, okay, great. i Amazing. What was that like? You know, like yeah tell me about it. and we like to have We don't have a response at the ready in our Western training yeah as a psychologist, you know.
00:23:54
Speaker
ah Yeah. Or we have a response that is completely inappropriate if someone had said that to us in a waking state. So we don't understand it. I don't think we have a good language around it i don't think we have a good framework. We still have a lot to to to learn in that way and to
Multicultural Views on Psychedelic Experiences
00:24:11
Speaker
learn how to hold that. But, um yeah, yeah it's so it's, it's it again, where we we have so much to learn. We've got to get outside of our framework.
00:24:24
Speaker
We really need to. Yes. Because I think whilst there are some concepts and things that maybe be ah you know that they don't feel clear, then don't translate clearly, there's ah there's plenty there's a lot that we can hold with kind of reverence and care and learn from each other, I think, or learn from them particularly. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know I think, yeah, we can...
00:24:46
Speaker
in holding that space and and uh and and it's okay to understand different ideologies even if it doesn't you know kind of vibe with with you you know but to to understand it's that's just one way of understanding it um yes there are there are many yes and totally you know and even you know i had the very good pleasure of sitting with anthropologists jeremy nabby who wrote the cosmic serpent and um and You know, Luis Eduardo um Luna, who is yeah one of the OG ayahuasca, I guess if you you could call him that. ah But he's also an anthropologist. So, you know, he's used to ah straddling those worlds.
00:25:33
Speaker
And um yeah and we we do, we need to be able to, I know I said this earlier, but we have to understand um how it could potentially exist in this framework, but understanding other frameworks as well.
00:25:43
Speaker
and not have that usual arrogance that we have in wisdom and Yeah. Yes. And that usual maybe, yeah, i I think it's so important. I mean, I would argue that that's important across the board in our treatment of human distress, actually. 100%. Not just in psychedelics, but, you know, correct. the present point. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
00:26:09
Speaker
ah A very, very long time ago, i did my PhD research looking at the different ways that people understood their experiences when they'd been diagnosed with paranoid delusions. Okay.
00:26:25
Speaker
so interviewing in a very multicultural city in the UK, interviewing people from all these different backgrounds about how they made sense of what had happened to them. And, you know, some people had thought it was the gym spirits kind of jumping in and kind of and taking over. Other people thought it was a brain issue. Some people thought it was their thoughts. and And so many more perspectives. Yeah. Fascinating.
00:26:48
Speaker
It is, isn't it really if We don't allow for that. how do How do we allow for that? We don't. Yeah. Not enough. Not enough. way No. And so how has, I mean, this is very early for you, but you've been over a few times. Do you feel that that time in in the Brazil and in the Amazon as well has like shifted your practice
Connection with Nature and Personal Growth
00:27:10
Speaker
in the West? And i'm is there anything that you want to share about that?
00:27:15
Speaker
Gosh, it's a hard question. Only because I think there's a it' sort of still I'm failing in in that way um
00:27:28
Speaker
way. I she oh yeah think 20 years when I figure it out. um ah mean Gosh, I think... um Just the importance of of kind of getting out of this absolute certainty of the way that, okay, yeah, I've studied this and this is the way it is. and ah You know, I sat with my yes teacher and who is Indigenous and and he has this beautiful way of teaching. It's not like you'll sit there and there's no curriculum because I said to people, I'm going to do a residency and they go, oh what are you going to study? I'm like, I don't know.
00:28:08
Speaker
yeah yeah I just have to go and sit with him. And while I'm with him, you know, because it he's from an oral tradition, so we'll be sitting or walking and um and then he'll talk to me or then he'll offer some insights or a teaching or ah so it doesn't happen in that that that way with people.
00:28:33
Speaker
books and and and a curriculum or anything like that. so And I remember sitting with him and we were just what looking at the beautiful forest, like it was stunning. And um and I had a head full of ideas and questions and blah, bla blah, blah. And I was sort of waiting for him to speak and he just...
00:28:51
Speaker
Look, and he said, oh, gosh, yeah look how beautiful this is. you know These are all people. i so So all the yeah so someone who embodies animism.
00:29:05
Speaker
Not that they think there's people in trees, with but but, you know, that that spirit and ancestor, you know, can, you know, ah embody a tree or, ah you know, water. um I recently read that, I think sometime last year that somewhere in Ecuador there was a, you know, ah legal a case where a body of water was actually recognised as a as sentient yes being ah and it had um a number of lawyers kind of ascribed to it in order to protect it.
00:29:41
Speaker
So it was actually given personhood status. And this is very, very in line with... what my experience of um Indigenous, particularly my my Indigenous teacher and how he he thinks about things. But, you know, that whole beautiful just sitting with him or going for a walk and it was a different quality of attention. If you look at trees or things or whatever and and think that this is some kind of ancestral spirit. You have such a different relationship yeah to animals, to the natural world. And when you're around that for a while, which I was for three months, and then I came back to Melbourne, I was like, oh God. on um
00:30:33
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. it was It was jarring, to say the least. so so So how that is, and it's only very fresh, so so how that is translating to my work and um my profession it and and who I am is is is sort of still unfailing. I would say I'm trying to encourage people to...
00:31:02
Speaker
turn up the the colour a little bit on their relationship with the natural world. I think there's experiences of awe in that. ah really was very inspired by Dacher Keltner, the Everyday Science of Awe.
00:31:18
Speaker
yeah um Fantastic book and it's got some wonderful examples of of research where people have gone on walks and, you know, with a specific instruction versus just go on a walk and take a selfie, you know. There's this other group that were instructed to take a selfie with ah something and really notice the details in in ah things on their walk, you know, li yeah veins on a leaf or this or that. And they found this fantastic kind of book and a quality in the selfies that that group took compared to the other group. You know, if they took a selfie, it just had them selfie in it and they were smiling or whatever. But the other group who had been given an instruction to really take note of these ah details, ah that they were actually much smaller in the selfies and there were big trees behind them or a body of water or, you know, ah that they looked like they were connected ah to something larger.
00:32:14
Speaker
And they experienced, you know, a high quality of life, um ah you know, less distress. So there were some very interesting findings that came out of those moments of just everyday awe, which are easy to to to do. We just don't do it.
00:32:30
Speaker
Yes, I had one last night actually. i was it was interesting because I think we spoke a little bit about this, um about awe in our last episode. I was listening last night just to kind of getting ready for today and yeah and then I got a text from my housemate saying, you need to come outside, the southern lights are on, showing.
Documentary on Dr. Ross's Work
00:32:47
Speaker
And I went outside and the whole sky was so bright oh and I took some incredible photographs. And it was it was just that pure moment of of absolute awe. And I was like, this feels quite apt given this conversation that I thought we might have. yeah i do I do like it. I think, yeah, I think that's probably one of the, it's but yeah, the the um the aurora um that you saw, was it the aurora or?
00:33:14
Speaker
Was it there the southern aurora? The southern aurora, yeah. Yeah. So gorgeous. was. Yeah. It was beautiful. And it was very bright last night. Yeah. And that moment of just kind of like, oh, that's when you kind of forget who you are.
00:33:29
Speaker
um Or remember that you're connected to everything, right? that's yeah Yeah. That interconnectedness. And I think if we can, given where we are and on in the the timing of the planet and climate crises, I think it's really such an important thing what you're talking about, both animism and these experiences of awe, because if somebody sees the river as a sentient being or they look at a leaf and they really, really look at it and notice all the the lines in it and and everything that lives on a leaf too, for example, they're going to have much more of a relationship and want to take care of it.
00:34:07
Speaker
Absolutely, absolutely. And seeing the beauty of it. And that beauty which inspires, know, beauty inspires devotion. But if you can just yeah connect to it. ah But we just don't allow ourselves to have time. we live in a box. We travel in a box. We get to another box. And we stay there. And um and there meanwhile, there's this is phenomenal way of outside. And so I think that that was a reminder. I was dismantled, I think, by the work. Yeah.
00:34:33
Speaker
had a lovely ah and very gentle invitation to, to I guess, ah ah reconnect. But but um the way the my teachers spoke about it was kind of a remembering but but also ah not remembering to connect but to remember to remember that you're not visiting nature, we are nature. You're in it.
00:35:01
Speaker
You know. Yeah, we are. We are it. Yeah, we are it. Yeah. We are the land. We are the water. Yeah. So, ah which is mind-blowing again and it sounds so simple, but when you live in it and and be immersed in it, yeah, it's some it was phenomenal. Yeah. Wow.
00:35:21
Speaker
Wow. ab I want to ask you a bit a bit about the the documentary, The Edge of Life, which actually kind of has come out yeah fairly recently as well. It's the end of last year, right? November? so yeah Yeah. How is it having that out in the world? Yeah.
00:35:39
Speaker
Yeah, we had Lynette Woolworths, who was the director. So she yeah followed us for about three years and followed up with a number of our patients and also interviewed Justin Dwyer and myself um extensively over that time.
00:35:56
Speaker
And then it was through Lynette and her connections with the Yawanawha people that we went to the the yeah Amazon. And we spent time in Matricia. Amazing. And we were invited to have ceremony there with their medicine man, Mooka, and um it was just phenomenal. So we spent probably eight days there and it was just the two of us and the cameraman, Bentley Dean, who is an incredible filmmaker in his own right. And we had just just a life-changing experience. And to see...
00:36:30
Speaker
ah You know, won't give away the spoilers, but just to see the yeah transformation in my colleague as well and and dear friend ah was just phenomenal. So um I think Lynette is one of those people that was never scared to go near death.
00:36:50
Speaker
We had a lot of people who were interested in doing documentary type work with us, but we needed two very important criteria to be met. And that was one how were they going to be with our patients?
00:37:03
Speaker
That was actually, that was probably first, second and third. could um Could we trust them with our patients? And also two um can they talk about death and not flinch from that?
00:37:17
Speaker
ah And she was, she loves talking about death. She yes says, she's very openly spoken about an immediate experience that she had herself. And and so so she's very interested in the in the topic of death and it wasn't also just about psychedelics. It was much more about, you know, meeting mortality and the ways you can do this. And obviously our, um our,
00:37:41
Speaker
ah story yeah and and working with our patients and their journeys and and then our journey as well and and particularly Justin's journey so that was um it's yeah it's um it was sort of weird we we went to a screening of it in Sydney there was about 100 people we were oh my god because you know you just don't feel like it's just you and the camera as you know if few of you in the room That's it. And then when people are watching it, you're like, oh, my God. um Yeah, so she did a beautiful job.
00:38:13
Speaker
Yeah. She beautiful We're very happy. I hate watching myself. I actually vowed and declared I wasn't going to watch it, and then Justin actually said, you have to watch it. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. With him, right? Like he probably would have wanted you to watch it with him. Well, he actually watched it on his own. or He had a link, and Lynette sent me a link, and I said, like god I can't, I can't. She's like, Mark, please, you know.
00:38:35
Speaker
I was like, all right, because I I hate, you know, it's like, you hate hearing this voice. And and anyway, it was beautiful. It was incredible watching our patients again who have ah since died. um ah Yeah. and And reliving that. And it was ah just beautiful. And obviously we're we're still in contact with Mukha and and um and yes the the village. So, yeah, it was life-changing.
00:39:05
Speaker
Amazing. So beautiful. And I will make sure that I put links to your papers, ah papers but the sounds a it and and somewhere that people can watch the documentary. Do you know where where people are able to watch it at the moment? I don't know for sure. i know it had a bit of a run...
00:39:24
Speaker
I think that the cinema run is finished now. I think it's either going on binge or Apple TV, I think. Okay, great. um great yeah so it's I'll just put the details in and people can look couldn search for it because I think it's some going to be lots of listeners that really want to want to listen to that and and watch it. and So beautiful. And I can only imagine the weirdness of watching yourself on screen in that way. you know i do know a little bit about that from the one on about our trial. You did it.
00:39:52
Speaker
Yeah. yeah i am I was only in it a little tiny bit. So actually, I think it was a lot easier for me to watch it than some of my colleagues. and yeah But actually, I was really, really moved by watching our participants. um Yeah. Really.
00:40:08
Speaker
It's about seeing them again. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, I think, yeah, when you're Yeah, yeah just to see them, and to speak about it because usually we just see them in therapy, right, and then you hear them yeah and their reflections when you're not in the room.
00:40:25
Speaker
Like, what was that? Did you, like, how was that for you? That's right. Yeah. It was, I think it was, I mean, it was really moving. i I found myself kind of really getting teary and and it were none of my participants were featured in the documentary, but they were people who I knew of from other therapists and they did follow one of us and then they went she didn't and get included in the end. um yeah but But it was just, I think I'm just constantly,
00:40:57
Speaker
am amazed at the bravery that these people have, you know. um These are people who were deeply, deeply anxious, you know, that was the trials about generalised anxiety disorder and to really kind of step up and face that experience of dosing and the quest or the, you know, that journey into some really difficult places. Yeah.
00:41:19
Speaker
It's amazing. That is the hardest when they're when they're already so anxious, know, To then go into a place where yes it's going to be difficult and it's going to make you anxious and and how they approach that and is extraordinary courage.
00:41:38
Speaker
Extraordinary. Yeah. And... Yeah. And it was, you know, yeah, I found it because I wasn't in it very much, I think, and a really beautiful way for me to show my colleagues and friends what I had done and the work that I had done in a way that maybe they hadn't understood before.
00:41:56
Speaker
So I'm sure that will be the case for you, right? Yeah. ah yeah yeah I'll put notes to more all of that in there and make sure people can find it and find and find your papers and So one final question, Mark, if that's all right.
Supporting Those Facing Mortality
00:42:14
Speaker
Sure, sure. Please. because Because this is going out as part of, this episode will be going out as part of a special series I'm doing on and psychedelic sleep assisted therapy at the end of life. And so do you have any final comments for people who are facing their own mortality or walking alongside somebody
00:42:33
Speaker
who is facing their mortality? Is there anything that you feel would be important to share about meaning, connection, being human? um i think, yeah, all those three, they're all important. meaning harry I think, you know,
00:42:53
Speaker
if you can, yeah for for people who are dying that they are often, so mindful of trying to look after everyone else and take care of their responses and and you know they often keep things to themselves because they don't want burden um others often the the most frequent thing that i hear is i don't want to burden them i don't um and they hold stuff and they're terrified you know or they're they're feeling lousy or they feel like shit or they feel angry or or
00:43:26
Speaker
or whatever and they can't tell anyone because they are protecting them out of out of love. But what happens is that they end up feeling desperately alone with some very difficult um experiences. So to just be able to hear that and not try to fix it with some glib, positive, oh, pink fighty,
00:43:52
Speaker
They don't want to hear that. That that drives them mental. like They hate it. um It's that the idea that we've got to try and fix it or that we have to try and make them
Living Fully Amidst Mortality
00:44:02
Speaker
feel better. They're dying. how We can't fix that.
00:44:05
Speaker
ah Death does not need fixing. Start there. um And just being with them in the trenches Whatever that is.
00:44:17
Speaker
um And reminding them of who they are because they've lost so much already. There's a massive assault on their sense of identity. Massive. um there you know They slowly lose their roles. They lose their stamina. They lose health and vitality and and so forth. So to remind them of who they are, just treat them like, you know, I remember i had a um ah young man I was seeing who just desperately wanted to be one of the guys again and but had this friend who's like we're gonna get this fundraiser for you on Facebook and it's gonna be this and and he's like no please don't I can't but he didn't want to be the special person he already had a cancer that was very very rare and very very special kind of he didn't want to be the special case he just wanted to be
00:45:05
Speaker
you know, him and the guys, one of the guys, um, yeah, you know, talk shit about work, you know, talk, talk about footy, do the, you know, have a few beers. Okay. I can't join you because I'm, but, but you just, you do it like ah complain about your boss. do Just be, be with me.
00:45:23
Speaker
Um, yeah, that you can just be or with them. um no And that ah because people are like, oh, I've got to say something really clever or let's have these really profound conversations. that For 95% of it, it's not that. It's just being with them.
00:45:42
Speaker
Let them talk. Yeah. Let them dictate the agenda. Don't try to fix it up. They're crying, let them cry. If they say it sucks, go, yeah, it must suck. I hate this for you. Or whatever, you know, how can I, know, you want me to cry with you? you want me you let's, or whatever. else Yeah.
00:46:03
Speaker
get Let them kind of dictate some pace a bit ah and don't try and fix And I'd have to say so for anyone, I've had an extraordinary week. my ah but My first mentor and my boss who hired me at St Vincent's, who was basically my teacher about death, was found dead this weekend.
00:46:28
Speaker
Really? and Oh, my goodness. I went, oh, my God, it's staggering. We think we have time. Yeah. Yeah. You just, yeah. of that Yeah, I'm really sorry about that. But it's the reality of life. It's it's reality. she was She was, you know, she would have been fine with it happening ah in lots of ways because she was so okay with death.
00:46:58
Speaker
Yes. But. ah Just, you just think you've got time and yeah. So don't say that to say have a sense of urgency in your life, but if you've got a choice to do something or wait, if you can do it now, don't definitely do it.
00:47:18
Speaker
That will be my final. words it Thank you, Mark. Words from the age of life. yeah i yeah Yeah, thank you, Mark. Such important reminders, right? Like, I... um I think my my job as a bereavement counsellor, that was probably my key takeaway. You know, i did sort of set meant several years early on in my career actually.
00:47:44
Speaker
And yeah, it made me, that's probably the reason I moved to Australia because I wanted to it. Yeah, right. To see what it was like. And I was like, I'm not going to sit around and, you know, I need to do this now. You just don't know what's around the corner. Yeah. just Fantastic. Yeah. I love hearing stories like that. I'm like, but yes, the people who just kind of go, yeah, I'm going to grab life by the yeah Yeah. Yeah, there is. a hint And I'm going to do it. I'm not going to wait.
00:48:08
Speaker
ah Because that I've seen, you know, and again, to end on this, but the number of people, I've seen, I don't know, thousands, but with people who work, work, work, work works sacrifice thinking that they're going to be rewarded with a good retirement only to get a devastating diagnosis maybe two weeks before they're about to retire or just afterwards. Yeah.
00:48:31
Speaker
um Yeah. And they didn't live. And that is the biggest regret that I hear. People regret things that they don't do more than the things that they do. Yeah. 100%. So it now. Do it now, folks. Don't wait.
00:48:47
Speaker
I love that. Well, I think that's a really great spot to end, Marg. Yeah. We'll send people off with some of that wisdom. And thank you so, so much for coming on again and taking time. We didn't keep it to an hour, but we tried. We tried. We got 40. We're a little bit over half an hour, but that's okay. That's all right. I knew that would happen. yeah um But, yeah, it's really lovely to have you on the podcast and great that we were able to get you back to share those results. And I'm sure people will be really excited to hear those. And I'll see you again soon. I'd love to have you on some other time. And yeah I'm sure I will see you outside of the podcast in human fo will in yes three z soon. have a wine. Yes, please. Thank you.
00:49:33
Speaker
All right. Thanks, Mark. Take care. Thanks. Bye. Thanks for listening. If you're interested in following along on the journey with me, check out my Instagram or website details listed in the show notes.
00:49:49
Speaker
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