Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
A Second Principal Perspective!
45 Plays4 years ago
Newly appointed Gunderson Middle School Principal Pam Lindemuth comes into the podcast arena, sharing her perspective on multiple topics. Hiring, paperwork, relationships, and how she handles working with individuals are all discussed as she shares her opinion and inspires the people around her. Listen and follow along as you will benefit from engaging with the hosts discuss different ideas and viewpoints on all educational topics as they provide their insight and “perspective” in hopes of having a greater understanding of their profession. Join administrator Robert Hinchliffe and teacher Abigail Peterson as they examine different educational topics from various points of view. Take the challenge of looking at a topic from another side and see if your opinion may change. In the end, no matter what side you are on, it’s all about perspective. What’s yours?
In this episode:
- What would cause an elementary based person to move up to be the principal of a middle school?
- What characteristics does Pam Lindemuth look for in her employees?
- What is her goal for the rest of her career?
- What inspires Pam to be "all in" for kids?
- Rapid fire - nine answers that will make you think how you are as an educator.
Connect with Abbie and Robert
Instagram: www.instagram.com/ItsAllAboutPerspective2021
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Its-All-About-Perspective-102961565105781
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ItsAllAboutPer2
Abbie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kindergarten_chaos/’
Robert on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pryncypalwithay/
Robert on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RobertHCCS
Pam Lindemuth on Twitter: @lindemuthccsd
Gunderson Middle School: www.gundersonms.com
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:09
Speaker
Welcome! You are listening to It's All About Perspective with your hosts, Abigail Peterson from Kindergarten Chaos and Principal Robert Hinchliffe. Join us as we discuss education from various points of view. Take the challenge of listening to see if your opinion changes. But no matter where you stand on the issues, remember, it's all about perspective.
00:00:32
Speaker
Hello and welcome to It's All About Perspective. This is episode nine and we are super excited because again today we have another guest. So Robert, will you please introduce our special guest for this episode?
00:00:48
Speaker
I will, I will. I would like to welcome someone that I greatly respect as a colleague. She's a person that I trust and confide in all the time because she keeps it real with me, which I need. And also she is the brand new principal of the brand new school in Las Vegas, Gunderson Middle School. So I want to say welcome to Pam Lindemuth. Thank you very much for being here. Yay. Welcome Pam. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. I'm honored to be here.
00:01:15
Speaker
So I want to have you on, not only because we're very close colleagues and we talk a lot about education, but we are also very different in our styles.
Pam's Leadership Vision and Style
00:01:25
Speaker
And so I think it would be good for our listeners to see that.
00:01:30
Speaker
there are different leadership styles out there that can be successful. So I thought that was important because I don't want to, of course, make people think that my way is the only way by any stretch. And you're much more successful than I am, I believe. So I think it's important to have you on here and share kind of your way.
00:01:47
Speaker
to help people, teachers out there or other admin so they can see that there's not just one way, there's multiple ways to get the top of the mountain. So to begin, I guess, first of all, why don't you tell us with the new middle school, kind of your vision and kind of what you're looking for in the teachers that you've hired? Sure. So I've been asked this by multiple people that have interviewed with me after interviewing, we typically have a team interview, 15 to 20 of my teachers join on average.
00:02:15
Speaker
every interview that we conduct and often candidates ask at the end what my vision is for Gundersen. And I tell them first and foremost it's relationships. Relationships are key to me. Relationships with staff, each other. Relationships with our students and relationships with our families. And so I feel like that is the core of who we are.
00:02:40
Speaker
After that, really looking at how we form structures and processes within the school to support relationships.
Importance of Relationships in Education
00:02:48
Speaker
I have told multiple people and I've been very open about it that I didn't have a very good middle school experience. In fact, I would say my middle school experience was incredibly poor. I went to school here in Clark County and I really didn't have many relationships with adults on campus.
00:03:07
Speaker
There's really only one teacher that I can think of that I had a good relationship with. And Robert actually knows who she is. Small world. She was, I believe his first principal. Yep. She hired me from Washington state. Yeah. And she was my, uh, seventh and eighth grade reading teacher. And I became her student aid in ninth grade at the time middle school was seventh through ninth. And, and she was my only significant adult relationship in middle school and
00:03:36
Speaker
Without her, I would have probably completely failed middle school, not just academically, but really emotionally. My parents got divorced. I got boobs. It was terrible. Everything about middle school was terrible for me. I think it is for everybody. The pressure and peer pressure was difficult.
00:03:57
Speaker
And so having that relationship with her was really critical for me.
Gunderson's Motto and Decision-Making Focus
00:04:01
Speaker
And so I, I first and foremost want to make sure that our kids have multiple adults to connect to and feel connected to, and that they know they care about them, that they can trust them, that they have a safe place to go to. And then of course, after that, really having passion about what you're doing and knowing how to teach
00:04:24
Speaker
Not just that tier one instruction, but after that, really being able to differentiate for our kids and meet them where they are. Our motto is grit, grace and grow. And I really firmly believe in those three words. Our kids need to have even us, we need to have that, that grit to be able to persevere those difficult things that sometimes don't come easy, that take more than one try. We need to have grace for ourselves.
00:04:48
Speaker
and for those around us. And no matter where we are, we should be able to grow. Those are the key pieces, the key components for me. The other thing that's really important to me is I have talked with every single staff member about a principal that I really admire. Never met him, but I do follow him on Twitter and I read his book and his name is Hamish Brewer. He's a middle school principal out of Virginia and he
00:05:15
Speaker
wrote a book called Relentless. And so one of the questions I've asked every person that's interviewed after they've watched his TED Talk is, what are you relentless about? And that's important to me because I want to know what is most important, whether it has to do with school or personal. What is it that you are relentless about? And I share with the staff that I've hired that I am relentless.
00:05:38
Speaker
about making good decisions first for kids. This isn't about the adults on campus, it's about our kids. And we do things that are best for kids. And I always keep that at the forefront when I'm making really important decisions. And so yeah, that's the base of who we are at Anderson.
00:05:55
Speaker
That's awesome. I just want to interject. You both come from elementary school backgrounds. Pam, you're moving to middle school, which is a new experience for you.
Professional Relationship and Experience Sharing
00:06:05
Speaker
But I have got to know, where did you guys meet along the path? In what meeting did you guys connect? And please tell us that. I've got to know. I'll go in and I'll start. I was a literacy specialist at Wright Elementary School up here in Mountain's Edge.
00:06:24
Speaker
And Robert came in as an assistant principal. And I feel like we really connected because of his strong beliefs in RTI first. So the school was not doing well in terms of intervention, very specific interventions, tracking that data, changing our interventions, really looking at our practices in tier two and tier three. We really didn't have a tier two or tier three defined.
00:06:50
Speaker
And so he came in and took over that process to his credit really asked me to be involved in that and taught me that piece. And I knew that I was going to be going through a leadership program in the next year and asked him if he would be willing to be my mentor through that leadership program, which he did. It was happened to be the same program he had gone through. So he was familiar with the intensity of that leadership program, which was pretty intense.
00:07:19
Speaker
And so that's how it started. And then we have just continued to develop our friendship and our collegiality throughout. I mean, goodness, I think it's been 15. A long time. 12 years. It's been a while. Yeah, a long time. You're one of my longest relationships probably in my life. It's just funny. You've been around the longest family. Yeah, yeah, in a lot of ways. I remember longer than I've known my husband.
00:07:48
Speaker
Yeah, I remember walking in like the first time into right. And that morning you were holding an RTI meeting. And it was just structured differently, of course, than the way we went to. And you know, Pam was doing her best as a literacy specialist for sure. She was
Pam's Journey and Growth as a Principal
00:08:06
Speaker
phenomenal at that. I always say Pam knows more about literacy than any human should know.
00:08:11
Speaker
And she's going to disagree with me on that and be humble. But it's true, you do. But then from there, like you can clearly see like Pam was the leader of the school, she was almost like the second AP. And so she just became the person that I would confide in. But then if you remember this, but when you were going through a cohort, I was like, I'll bet you you can't beat my score.
00:08:30
Speaker
Oh, I remember everything as a competition with Robert. Right. Well, yeah. And she didn't, but that's okay. But it was just fun from there because, you know, when you love, I love Adam and I love talking about it, but when you see someone who wants to be in as much, as much as Pam did too, or likes as much as I do, that's like my kind of person. So we kind of bonded and we worked it right. And then of course, after she got through, I was gone from right. So you became the AP there.
00:09:00
Speaker
But it got me thinking though, when I was at right in the AP, I was way different than I am now. I was much more structured, more firm, like I'm checking things, I'm checking them twice, and I'm going to let you know if they're not there. And I've kind of evolved into big picture now. How have you evolved kind of since you started admin?
00:09:22
Speaker
Very much the same way. I mean, I just don't let the little things matter as much as I did in the beginning. I think I compare it to my journey as a teacher. I look at my first year as a teacher and every little thing bothered me or mattered. And I feel like I micromanaged my own classroom. My 38 fourth graders had to be in a perfect line, do the perfect thing. And you ease up as you get more comfortable with your craft.
00:09:50
Speaker
And I think the same thing has happened. I also had the luxury when I became an administrator, there were two APs and a principal who were very seasoned at right. And so I had the luxury of tapping a lot of experience. And so I had a lot of things happen my first year as an administrator. We lost three students. I went through, you know, an expulsion process, which doesn't typically happen in an elementary school. Just a lot of things happen in my first year.
00:10:19
Speaker
And so I was really grateful to have two very seasoned administrators who had been both at the elementary and secondary level and had, I think between them probably over 20 years of experience. And so that helped me kind of ease up a little on some of those things that I could have been really crazy about the little details and I wasn't. And I think some of that just comes with experience and confidence as you learn what's important and what isn't.
00:10:48
Speaker
you learn how to cut the fat and say, this is not that important. I'm just going to let that go. But this is important. And I always stay grounded in my belief about instruction and knowing that that is really what my strength is, is instruction in the classroom is my favorite place to be as an administrator. I'd much rather be sitting with kids in the classroom.
00:11:08
Speaker
Learning right along with them and celebrating the things that teachers are doing because they're working their butt off. And so those are the things that I focus on rather than those those detailed paperwork kinds of things.
00:11:19
Speaker
So I have a question for you coming from elementary and going into middle school. So what do you think that you are bringing to a middle school that other principals who maybe are used to being in a high school model or even middle school, but have never had experience in an elementary school?
Transitioning from Elementary to Middle School Administration
00:11:41
Speaker
I'm so excited to see your journey because I think that's phenomenal.
00:11:46
Speaker
So what do you think that you're going to bring from an elementary perspective to the middle school? I mean, I've never been a middle school principal. So I certainly don't know what it's like to only be a middle school principal. But I definitely feel like I bring a sense of community and family to a secondary campus. I didn't have that as a middle school student by any stretch of the imagination. And so those are really the only comparisons I have. And so I feel like I bring that.
00:12:16
Speaker
This is my ninth year as an administrator, so I do feel like I bring just a variety of experience in general. I do feel like I really understand what it means to differentiate, and I don't know that that always happens on
00:12:30
Speaker
all secondary campuses. I'm sure that there are plenty of pockets out there where it does. But my experience has been that it doesn't always. And sometimes we're just teaching to that accelerated class or that regular class. And so I don't like that. My goal would eventually be that we have all accelerated classes and that we really differentiate at a very high level.
00:12:52
Speaker
regardless of who's in that classroom. I don't like pigeonholing kids at such a young age. So those are some of the things that I will bring. You know, it's been a learning curve, learning about master schedule and things like that, but those aren't things that are going to stop me from doing the important business that I know needs to happen regardless of the level that we're at on our campus.
00:13:13
Speaker
So let me ask you a really insignificant question, but I really want to know the answer. So I couldn't wait to go to middle school because you got to have French fries at lunch every day if you wanted French fries. You know, you got to go up to the cafeteria and you had all these options, which in elementary school you didn't have. So what's the one thing that you're secretly looking forward to in a middle school campus? You know, honestly, it has to do with the age. I'm really excited to get to talk to
00:13:43
Speaker
teenagers. I've got a special place in my heart for those kinders and those first graders, but they don't always get the jokes. And I will tell you, I probably need to brush up on some of my pop culture. I am not going to lie. I thought that my husband was going to die when I didn't know who Marshmello was. Okay, so here's a tip.
00:14:07
Speaker
Are you on TikTok? I'm not. You have to just so you can kind of catch up on this. See this middle part? You probably don't get that reference, but there's a bunch of talk on TikTok and pop culture about millennials always having a side part and all the cool kids now have the center part. So I'm like,
00:14:33
Speaker
Yes. So jump on TikTok and you'll learn some new pop culture quickly. Robert, I feel like you should be right there. You got teenagers all over the place at your house.
00:14:45
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know anything about TikTok. I don't want to. They tell me stuff I don't even understand what they're talking about. So going back to middle school, it's been interesting because you having had middle school students and being elementary based
00:15:02
Speaker
It's a very different culture in middle school. And you and I talked about that. So what are some big ideas that you are going to try to accomplish at Gunderson that you feel like could really change the trajectory of middle school? Because I know one of your goals is basically to just that to change kind of how middle school runs. So
Building a Relationship-Focused Team
00:15:27
Speaker
Like, what are your big ideas? How are you going to make middle school the most amazing experience for kids, and not just status quo like it might be in a lot of other schools? Well, part of the reason that I even applied for this position was because I had the ability to hire every person on campus. So it starts with staffing, and really finding people that have the same vision and beliefs and philosophies that you do, which I believe at this point, I've done, I've hired 64 staff members. And
00:15:55
Speaker
Honestly, every single one of them are exactly what I want and need in that position. That is a unique opportunity. And so I'm going to go right back to relationships. Every single one of them values and understands relationships, which is key and critical. You can find some on a campus, whether it's middle school or high school that believe in that, but not all. And sometimes you get this attitude, well, I teach my content. I don't teach kids.
00:16:25
Speaker
And that is not how we're going to do business at Gundersen. And so that's part of it is the staffing.
00:16:33
Speaker
But also really looking at, and you'll understand this Robert for sure because you have a similar model is how do we create a school within a school and build in those SEL lessons and talk to kids about growth mindset and what that really means. And that'll be a part of our structure as well. So we'll have, instead of houses, we're going to have dens because we're the Gundersen Grizzlies and we'll have six dens and our kids will meet in smaller den meetings once a week.
00:17:00
Speaker
I've added 25 minutes onto our school day so that we can have seven periods a day. And if our waiver gets approved, we'll have eight periods on Wednesday and that eighth period will be 35 minutes long. So kids will meet in smaller groups with teachers to talk about those things. What does it mean to have grit? What does it mean to persevere? You know, what does it mean? What does honesty actually really mean? And how do you take responsibility for your own actions? Listen, we make mistakes. It happens. I make mistakes all the time.
00:17:28
Speaker
But you own up to it, you learn from it so that you don't make that mistake again. And I have hired an assistant principal who truly believes in her heart about restorative justice practices. And so we
Addressing Learning Loss Post-Distance Learning
00:17:40
Speaker
will use restorative justice on our campus as our first line of, I don't want to call it defense, but our first line of intervention for kids when they make a mistake.
00:17:51
Speaker
And instead of having an in-house room, we're gonna have a reset room. Whether you need to reset for an hour or you need to reset for a week, we'll have a place for you to go to really think about what we need to do to make better choices and repairing the harm and practicing circle ups and really looking at the core. What does it mean to fix what we've done so that we can do better the next time? And it's nice to have a partner that believes the same.
00:18:19
Speaker
Right, right, right. So one of the things that I think for next year that we as admin are going to run up against is I think next year is going to be even more difficult for teachers, because the students are going to come in not where we would hope they would be. So
00:18:38
Speaker
How do you in middle school with your schedule combat that? I mean, fifth graders are going to come in hopefully at sixth grade level, but of course they've missed so much time. Distance learning isn't fantastic, although the teachers have done an amazing job. One of my fears is that
00:18:56
Speaker
kids are going to come into second grade and they're going to be mid to late first grade level. And a lot of teachers have never had to work with students who are below. That's not so much my problem, but district wide, I think that could be. So how are you at middle school going to combat what they're calling as, as learning loss? Yeah. I mean, the, the research is showing that there's not quite as much learning loss as people think there is. However,
00:19:21
Speaker
We, because we added an extra period onto the day, we have a hundred minutes of math every day instead of 50. So my expectation in hiring those math teachers has been, and I'm going to tell you, it's not easy to find good quality math teachers. That has been a challenge. We're almost completely staffed outside of math.
00:19:39
Speaker
but really understanding that we have to have time built into our math schedule for kids to be able to have practice, stations, small groups. And it's difficult to do that in 50 minutes. And so we have 100 minutes in math sixth, seventh and eighth grade, no matter their level. So that will be one piece, but really hiring staff that understand how to differentiate. And that has been a key piece of hiring and making sure that teachers understand
00:20:07
Speaker
those pieces, we will have some tier one materials that are consistent across the school. I'm not a fidelity person, but I still want them to have those materials available to them, building in common preps, building in PLC time every single week. And then we will do something called cohorting. And so kids will travel through similar teachers so that those teachers have an opportunity to talk with each other about kids and what their needs are.
00:20:37
Speaker
and plan interdisciplinary lessons so that they understand the connections between BLA, math, science, social studies. So those are some of the key pieces for kind of catching kids up in general. I'm more concerned about the social emotional piece of our kids returning. You know, there's a lot of trauma our kids are going to be experiencing. And so I have two phenomenal counselors at this point. We've been super picky about our third and we haven't found the exact fit yet.
00:21:04
Speaker
But our counseling offices are located where our kids are. They're not in a separate building in a separate office. There's 600, 700s and 800s and our counselors are in the building with the kids. So if they need assistance or help, let's get them that so we can get them back to class so that they're emotionally doing well.
00:21:24
Speaker
So going back to this year, when you were in elementary school for the first half of the year, what did you find the most difficult piece of being admin with distance learning this year was? Because I struggle, opening a new school is different, of course, your school was established. So we had a hard time just establishing staff relationships and being able to work together. But at your former school, your staff was set.
00:21:49
Speaker
What area did you find the most difficult being admin this year as a distance learning principal? Kids are present if they show up for five minutes. And that doesn't mean that they're getting everything that they need to get. So the teacher's teaching it, but if the student's not there and they're not getting it. So that by far was probably the most frustrating. Our model of distance learning isn't truly what, if you look at like our NVLA model for
00:22:17
Speaker
Online learning, that's not what we did. We tried to recreate a day online, which didn't work for some families, didn't work for some kids, especially our little babies, our K-12 kiddos, because they needed to have an adult next to them or near them all day long. And that's not feasible for some of our families, especially those families where they have two working parents or it's a single parent and they're working all day. And so they had to send them to the Boys and Girls Club or they had to send them to a rec center.
00:22:46
Speaker
And here you have a teenager running that program or running that room and they don't know how to help that kid either. And so that to me is probably the most frustrating because I don't know that that tier one instruction necessarily occurred for so many of our kids. The teacher gave the instruction. The teacher provided engaging lessons and learned breakout rooms and
00:23:07
Speaker
figured out how to have kids participate in various ways. But if the kid isn't there and they're not present for the lesson, that doesn't really make a difference. And so that was frustrating. Yeah, on paper, it looks like they were because all they had to do was show up for five minutes or term one assignment and then they were present for the entire day. So that was a struggle for me. And how do you combat that? We call parents, we do home visits.
00:23:34
Speaker
We have them bring their Chromebook in because for whatever reason they can't log in or the Chromebook isn't creating a charge or whatever the issue is. So you try to combat that as much as you can. Your counselor does well checks, does a lunch bunch, everything you can do, but they still aren't attending all the lessons. And we'd have them attend maybe in the morning, but not the afternoon. After lunch, it was really difficult to get kids
Dealing with Strong Personalities and Social Media Presence
00:23:58
Speaker
back.
00:23:58
Speaker
I'm curious about how you as a principal deal with strong personalities among your staff. So Robert and I have talked about it in a previous episode. So I'm just curious your perspective kind of principle versus principle. Yeah. So when you have a really strong teacher, sometimes you have a really strong personality that goes with that. It kind of goes hand in hand.
00:24:21
Speaker
And so you have to choose your battles. You have to choose what's most important. And then I go back to what's best for kids. So is this something that I'm just going to have to swallow and move on because they're doing what's best for kids? Is this something where I can pull this person in, close the door, have a quick conversation and say, knock it off? Is this something where we're just going to have to say, I really admire you professionally, but we're going to have to agree to disagree. I would say that some say I have a strong personality, but I also really learn how to
00:24:51
Speaker
massage situations to work for both myself and our kids. But again, to me, it goes back to kids. So let's leave the ego or check the ego at the door and let's talk about what we can do for kids to make it work. What about social media? How do you feel about teachers and social media? I'm not a fan of airing dirty laundry anywhere. And so I've already told our staff, you know, you need to lock it down.
00:25:21
Speaker
because we live in a community that's probably, I stalk every candidate. First thing I do when somebody applies for a job is I look on Twitter or Facebook and see what I can find out about them. And I have found some interesting things. And so those are conversations that I'm pretty direct about with staff, and especially those that decide they're going to friend every parent or community member.
00:25:45
Speaker
and then say things that perhaps they don't want to say. It's unfortunate, but I've seen some people getting some hot water by saying things that they shouldn't say on social media. And it's the same lesson we give our kids, right? And that's once you put it out there, it's there forever. Somebody can screenshot it, save it. And I've seen outside of education, I've seen some careers and some lives really damaged by something like that. So always proceed with caution.
00:26:13
Speaker
What about specifically education social media content? So I think I'm pretty sure I know some teachers that you used to work with that have very specific education content social media channels. So how do you feel about that? I know, I know, I mean, obviously I worked with Robert, so he knew the extent of my social media and I know his thoughts on it. So I'd love to hear your thoughts.
00:26:42
Speaker
on it. If we're promoting things that are awesome strategies for other teachers, I think that's wonderful. I mean, if that's the avenue we're going down. We had some teachers at my previous school that created their own content, created their own curriculum. They were on teacher paid teacher, shared lots of things with other teachers. I think that we're inspired by other teachers to do better, to know better. And so I think those are awesome.
00:27:07
Speaker
You and I agree in a lot of things, but we are very different. What is the area you would say we're the most different in? Cause I know what I think I would say, but what would you say? Details. I would say you're not a detail oriented person. I probably am a little bit more, but I think, you know, this is, I'm going into my 24th
Leadership Style Differences and Reflection
00:27:26
Speaker
year. I think every year I become a little less detail oriented, but those do matter to me a lot more than they matter to you. I also think you're a little more blunt than I am.
00:27:37
Speaker
I tend to deliver things a little, you know, a little softer, I would say, than you do. See, that is interesting. Cause I was going to say, you're much more direct than I am. And you, uh, you will stab people from the front if it's important to you.
00:27:54
Speaker
I tend to do that on a one on one basis. Right, right, right. And say, you know, some interesting and pointed things. You tend to do that in masses in front of a group. Yeah, if you if someone's, if someone slaps me publicly, then, you know,
00:28:13
Speaker
I tend to have poor judgment and will will do it back, which is never a good thing. But yeah, it's interesting because, you know, I used to be very detail oriented. And now I'm not a more big picture. But I always value the fact that you have no problem, for what I know with difficult conversations with
00:28:33
Speaker
with staff members. And I am more of the, I will sit here and try to dance around it until you can reflect enough to understand why I'm not happy. And you're just like, I'm not happy because I value that about you. Yeah. I don't like to flirt around stuff. I'm just going to get to the, you know, the meat of it, the point of it, and just say it like it is. And sometimes, you know, that can be hurtful to start off with, but I need that person to understand what my perspective is. I also feel like,
00:29:03
Speaker
When that happens, I kind of go to an emotionless place because it's probably more of a protection for myself. There's various ways that people describe that, but the easiest way for me to deal with hard conversations, and I've had to have a lot of those over the years, but I need the person on the receiving end to understand the severity of what's occurring and that it either needs to stop or they need to leave.
00:29:27
Speaker
And as somebody who is also a direct person, I appreciate that because I would rather somebody just be very direct with me and just tell me exactly then for me to surmise what they mean. You know, I kind of like don't want to have to figure it out myself. I want you to just tell me directly if you're happy or if you're not. And if you're not, tell me what it is and I'll address it or you know.
00:29:53
Speaker
See, and I think I, like with Abby, when we were together, you know, like Abby, there were times I had to tell Abby, like, you can't do that. I think I adapt more to the people and that's my way. I don't know that that's, there's no better way by any stretch, but we do what works for us, but I just find it so fascinating when I, when I, you know, reflect and think of you or our other colleague that we talk to a lot, how we are different in a lot of ways on those conversations.
00:30:22
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And I think it depends on who the person is we're speaking with too. You have to gauge who you're speaking with and say, is this really worth it? And that's another piece too. How much juice am I going to squeeze out of this? And if it's not worth the squeeze, then why do it? But again, if we're hurting kids, I'm going to tell you right now, you're going to know about it. And I'm the type of person, I don't want you to beat around the bush.
00:30:51
Speaker
Just tell me if there's a problem, I need to know what it is and then I'll handle it and I'll handle it how I'm going to handle it, whether you like it or not. How well do you think adults these days
00:31:04
Speaker
can accept responsibility. So what I mean by that is are you fine? I'm finding in my career as it goes along that, uh, you know, like when I have to be talked to from our boss, if it ever happens, which it does, um, I just say, you know what, you're right. It won't happen again. I accept that I did that. Have you found that a lot of people can't do that? I think it has to do with how reflective we are, right? Or how like, I don't like to make mistakes.
00:31:33
Speaker
And so if I have to be spoken to about something, which I don't usually have to, I don't like it. And so I'm going to correct it if it's something that I know is a real problem. But I think so much of that goes back to personalities. And I think teachers in general are, most of them in my experience, they're perfectionists. They don't want to make a mistake. They want to do it right. And so how open are you to feedback? I found some are very open and some are very closed. And so.
00:32:01
Speaker
It varies from person to person, for sure. So when they're really closed, how do you deal with that? And the reason, like, if people are out there listening and they can't reflect, I want them to have an example of if you can't reflect, then, you know, this could happen. It's going to go back to grow. You know, if you can't reflect, it's going to be very hard to grow. Um, or if you're constantly on the defense and that wall is up.
00:32:26
Speaker
Then you have very little room for growth, or if you only want to be reflective on your terms. And I've definitely worked with people that way and some fabulous educators. But that doesn't mean you don't have room to grow and that you don't make mistakes. We all do. It goes back to that growth mindset, you know, and not everybody has it. And so those are tough. Those are probably the toughest.
00:32:47
Speaker
And I think one thing that the last year has taught us is that we don't know it all. We don't know it all because who would have ever thought that we would be teaching online? I know many of teachers that have said, I didn't sign up to teach online. I didn't sign up to teach from home. And so I think definitely this last year has proven to us that we don't know it all. And there's always room to grow and there's always room to advance.
00:33:15
Speaker
I agree. Absolutely. So again, going back to it, I think to like looking at this year.
00:33:22
Speaker
What's your perspective on on testing and data? And where do you lie on that? I mean, I know, of course, that's why I'm asking you. But because you have the people that can't reflect and then you have going kind of coming off what we're talked about, they can't reflect. So then, you know, in a normal year, you throw data in front of people and they can't reflect. Where do you kind of lie on that with respect to just teachers and looking at data?
00:33:48
Speaker
I struggle with just taking a test on a computer and using that data. I think to me and Robert, we've talked about this before, it's just getting the best that we can get out of what we have left this year and kind of regrouping next year with our kids. Even those formative pieces of data that we have, there's no solid guarantee that that's exactly where our kids are. I mean, you do the best you can with what you've got.
00:34:16
Speaker
But when I look at like map or aspect data, I struggle with that. And you have to take it with a grain of salt. You know what I mean? I know the aspect will be in person. And so at least we'll have some sort of a gauge on how our kids can perform on their own independently. But we had multiple situations where we had to ask a parent several times to step away from the computer because they were assisting.
00:34:41
Speaker
Where do you, because at your last school, you, I mean, you guys were ranked very high in our, in our system. And, and that's a testament to you and the staff, of course, where do you land on the way that schools are ranked in our system, the star system, you know, with a hundred points possible, because at you'll probably talk about this at your previous school, growth is hard. And, you know, growth is a big component of this system. So how do you feel about that?
Views on School Rating Systems
00:35:10
Speaker
I wish it was more growth than anything. When you look at just general proficiency, if you have kids that are coming in two, three years behind, there's only so far you can stretch a rubber band, right? And so I wish that growth were a larger portion or percentage of that because I feel like that really shows the business we're doing. However, it's difficult at a school that's already very high performing because again, how far can you stretch a rubber band?
00:35:36
Speaker
So I struggle with the ratings in general. I know it's just part of who we are and it's not something that we can avoid. It's a one part of a puzzle, which is what I always told our staff. It is not the end all be all. And I know that those scores were important to them because it was their reputation and part of their identity. But I always let them know that for me, that was one test, one piece, one part, that the picture was so much bigger than that.
00:36:03
Speaker
It is, it is. It's hard though, you know, because let's just say that you're, you know, your former school dropped to four stars. That would bring upon a lot of challenges to you within the community, that community. So it is just one piece, but the bad part is, is that the public only sees that piece.
00:36:22
Speaker
They don't see how well you have made this kid grow or taught this kid how to overcome adversity. So one of the things that I struggle with is that the public doesn't get the full picture based upon that one score. And if that one score is not up to their standards, if they care, then that reflection is right back on you, which may or may not be fair. I think that just comes with communicating with your community, though.
00:36:51
Speaker
You know, I've seen principles out there where it's not a 5 star school. It's a 3 or 4 star school and they are. You know, really working hard and making gains in other areas and really pointing those those pieces out to a community. Because you're right what all that they see or here is what is published on. The front page of the paper or on the CCSD parent page or whatever it is.
00:37:15
Speaker
And so some of that has to do with your own communication system. And I know that, you know, some of your girls are at a high school where the principal is really good about communicating very clear, you know, what's happening. And so I think some of that's on us. So yeah, this is one test, but I want you to see the other things we're doing that are, are really awesome as well. True.
00:37:36
Speaker
So we always end our podcast with, uh, what we call rapid fire. If we have a guest, uh, Abby went first, I went second. So you are fourth, which is awesome. Quick questions, just what comes to your mind. You can expand upon it. You could not. So here we go. Who inspires you in your life? My daughter first and foremost, and then educators that are out there professionally, educators that are out there.
00:38:04
Speaker
really grinding it out on a day to day basis and making a difference despite, you know, whatever the challenges are. So the next question is who inspires you in ed? And I know right now you're big on Hamish Brewer. So why does Hamish inspire you to be relentless? He's all in. Then he, he repeatedly says, I would go through a brick wall for my staff and my students. And I'm, I'm a very loyal person and I am the same as Hamish in that aspect where
00:38:31
Speaker
If our staff is out there doing that, then we should be doing the same. I will go through a brick wall for staff and students, particularly staff that are out there all in doing everything they can for kids. There's not much I won't do for them. What annoys you the most about your job? Paperwork. Those are the pieces and the parts. If there's so many hoops to jump through for, for piddly things, you know,
00:38:55
Speaker
Having to buy supplementary materials, I have two pages I have to fill out to buy one piece, one material, which has to then be approved by my boss before I can send it into the bond department to then have it approved for submission for payment to then order it. That's just one example. It's just there's so much paperwork and every Friday there's another survey to fill out. Those are the little things that just take up a lot of time when I could be spending my efforts on something else.
00:39:25
Speaker
Kind of a side question there. What percent of our time do you think we spend on items that do not affect student achievement? Well, at 50%, if not more. I would agree. I would say if not more. What do you want from your colleagues in middle school or just in general? What do you want from your administrative colleagues? Openness, a willingness to share and collegiality, true collegiality. And that doesn't always happen. What do you hope to accomplish the rest of your career?
00:39:55
Speaker
I have six years left. I hope to build up Gundersen to be a middle school that I want to send my own daughter to. What do you want most from your employees? All in. I want them to make decisions that are best for kids, not for themselves. We're not in the business about adults. We're in the business of kids. And I will do everything I can to shield them from the parts and pieces of the district that they don't need to know about. So they can do that, but to truly be all about kids.
00:40:25
Speaker
What is one lesson or piece of advice you receive that you can share with everybody? Uh, check your personal stuff at the door. What is your favorite memory or accomplishment during your career? It would be my first year as a teacher. I started in January. I did my student teaching in the fall and, uh, Richard, uh, came to me and I did a readers on a writer's workshop and Richard, a fourth grader came to me in March and he said I was Norton at the time.
00:40:54
Speaker
And he read a Matt Christopher book, which he wrote books about sports. And he said, Mrs. Norton, this is the first book I've ever read cover to cover. And he had a tear roll down his eye. Best. That was by far the best memory. And there he did that because he had the opportunity to truly read a book cover to cover. He had never been given that opportunity before. Awesome. Last one. If you could change education in one way, what would it be? Take the politics out of it. Take the politics out of education and make it about
00:41:23
Speaker
what it should be, which is kids. And that doesn't happen nearly as much as it should. We have people making decisions about education that have no business making decisions about education.
00:41:34
Speaker
That's a great, great answer. So, you know, I think you're amazing and I appreciate everything you've done for me and with us in our careers. And I appreciate you being here. It's always a pleasure just to get to talk, uh, education with you. So as in a personal and professional manner, thank you very much for our, our very long relationship and maybe we have many more. Yes. I've got six years left to talk education. And after that, you know, you can hire me as a CTT and we can talk about whatever you want.
00:42:04
Speaker
I love it. Thanks, Pam, for joining us. It's been a great conversation for me to be able to just kind of sit back and listen to two admin share kind of their, especially your vision, but knowing what Robert has already shared about you to me. So I am excited to watch your journey at Gundersen. I think it's going to be amazing. I love your grit, grace, and tell me the last one again.
00:42:32
Speaker
grow. That's right. Yes. I love those. I, those are amazing.
Closing and Social Media Information
00:42:36
Speaker
So I look forward to watching you. I think people can find you on Twitter, correct? Yeah. Linda Muth CCSD, I think is what my handle is. I remember, right? I created it so long ago.
00:42:47
Speaker
Linda Muth, which is her last name. CCSD. When you get a chance to share Gunderson's website as well because you've got some amazing things already going on there. Yeah, it's just www.GundersonMS.com. It's pretty easy. My Twitter handle is LindaMuthCCSD. That's awesome. Thank you for joining us today, sharing all your wisdom and all of the amazing things that you plan to do at Gunderson. But always remember that no matter where you are or where you stand on the issues,
00:43:18
Speaker
Do you know what to say, Pam? It's all about perspective. Thanks for joining us. See you next time. Bye. Thanks for listening to today's podcast. We would love to hear your perspective on this episode. Head over to our Instagram page. It's all about perspective 2021 or our Facebook and Twitter page and share your opinion.
00:43:46
Speaker
Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review on whatever platform you're listening to this podcast. And one last thing. Remember, it's all about perspective.