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James Bond: Timothy Dalton Era
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In this episode, Fraser (Satsunami) and Adam discuss the Timothy Dalton era of the James Bond franchise. From The Living Daylights to Licence to kill, the duo discuss what truly defined these films within the series and the impact they left behind.
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Transcript
Introduction and Banter
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chad Tsunami. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chad Tsunami. I'm Chad Tsunami and today I am joined by my very good friend and co-host who indeed has a license to chill. Adam, hello there, welcome.
00:00:32
Speaker
Hello Satsu, thank you for that, that was a very fun intro. It took me ages to thank God. Longer than I care to admit. Oh you're far cleverer than I am because I was like damn I wish I could be a wordsmith like that. I was like a license to chill, license to throw, license to bill. You know, all the good adjectives. Imagine a license to bill. The ultimate power. Is that not just every restaurant? That's true.
00:01:00
Speaker
Every restaurant trades profession. That is definitely a problem I wouldn't want to see. James Bond and license to Bill, he's just a tax man instead of a secret agent. Just chasing down somebody who's not paid their income tax properly.
Cultural Impact of James Bond
00:01:17
Speaker
And on that note, yeah, as you've probably caught on now, yeah, we are talking about a very special franchise that is, yeah, I would say it's very close to my heart. Oh, definitely. Very close, very close to young Adam's heart. And still quite close to mine as well, you know. I still, I still, I still love the franchise.
00:01:36
Speaker
Oh yeah, the franchise is absolutely... I don't know, it's just, it's one of those things. It's a bit like Doctor Who. Probably like the best comparison in the sense that every so often they recycle and... I mean they recycle the character themselves but they always get like a new actor into the fray and they try to kind of rejuvenate it for a new audience and a new timeline. Because this is what I was saying to you before we came on tonight that every James Bond is almost like a time capsule for the era.
00:02:03
Speaker
yeah you're totally right like it is it is they are amazing like cultural artifacts in their own right to look back into like a society's views and norms at the time yeah they're definite like you can definitely tell the kind of thinking at the time when they came out especially with the villains the majority of them like the old ones anyway are like either the russians or some secret evil organization you know
00:02:30
Speaker
Yeah. I mean it all of a sort of change now.
The Timothy Dalton Era: A New Tone?
00:02:33
Speaker
I suppose it brings me on to like the kind of turning point because this was something quite interesting that I read when we were researching these films so before like I go on to that point of course as you've seen today we are going to be talking about the Timothy Dalton era of James Bond which is quite a contentious era isn't it?
00:02:53
Speaker
It certainly is. It certainly was very contentious at the time. And you're right, it still remains, I think to this day, quite contentious. And it does divide opinion about what side you fall on, whether you love it or you hate it. It's one of those eras that I think a lot of people said that it came too early.
00:03:12
Speaker
Because before that James Bond, you don't normally have to look far to see parodies of James Bond, where it's a guy in a tuxedo, he's got the martini, he's very eloquent, unlike me just there. He has his martini and everything. But he was always quite goofy. He was the secret agent with
00:03:36
Speaker
the gadgets and you know he was like jet hopping from country to country and then it got like it had its dark moments I mean especially if you look as far back as Her Majesty's Secret Service where spoilers you know it kind of like shapes his character
00:03:54
Speaker
for the rest of the franchise where basically someone I won't spoil it too much but basically someone close to them at the very end gets yeah just gets killed and it's a very depressing ending but then after that they kind of moved away didn't they from that kind of dark and you know gritty like outlook I suppose is the right word and they then they then made one about somebody collecting diamonds to build a space laser what a recall of the last one
00:04:22
Speaker
What was that then? That was Diamonds are Forever I'm pretty sure. It's something about making a laser out of diamonds to blow up something I can't even remember. I wouldn't be surprised because it seems as if the plots just get more and more outlandish, you know, which is kind of weird for the films that we are going to be talking about today.
Dalton vs. Moore: A Shift in Style?
00:04:44
Speaker
How to put this like they're more grounded in reality. Oh yeah, far away.
00:04:49
Speaker
like don't get me wrong they're not like 100% you know realistic but see at the same time they're a lot more closer to like so it's like if you look at Bond's movies nowadays they're more akin to like the Jason Bourne franchise like I remember when Daniel Craig's first film came out that was the kind of film that everyone kept saying oh it's more like Jason Bourne than it is James Bond you know like more of an action spy film
00:05:19
Speaker
like the gadgets and everything and I think that trend kind of started in these films and it was not well received because before this it was Roger Moore wasn't it? Oh yeah yeah it had been Roger Moore in his oh god how many years was it it was over a decade wasn't it?
00:05:37
Speaker
I swear it was over 10 years. It was something like that. It was not eight films he did. It was like eight films, yeah. It might have been close to 15 years. So he like, he really had, you know, like that defined, I think, Bond for a whole generation of people who grew up with that version of it. Because I'm just thinking of his first film, you know, he was in Love and Let It Die and he's a young man, you know, he's got
00:05:59
Speaker
he was definitely more of a lover than a fighter wasn't he in those films. He always got his ass kicked and he was a terrible spy but it was literally his only job really seemed to be to get the girl in the end which I know technically you could say that for all the films but it seems as if they put it like more of an emphasis on him being like this kind of I suppose like a cheeky chap.
00:06:29
Speaker
bond was just a step on the path to getting whatever woman knickers were like to visit to that point. Well, I mean, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. And I mean, by the time they go to the right page of, I think we said it was in his late 50s. 57, I looked it up. Was it 57? 57. Jesus, that is, what an age to finish on. An old pruney bond.
00:06:58
Speaker
So the interesting thing, when Roger Moore's era was kind of coming to an end, one of the interesting things I read was Timothy Dalton was offered this role a lot, like as James Bond. He was asked to come on to the projects so many times and he never did.
00:07:13
Speaker
I was kind of surprised, but I think the common excuses that he had were, oh he was too young, he didn't think he would do it, or he had like prior engagement so he couldn't do them, and then he got his chance in the, it was the early 80s that the living daylights came out, wasn't it? I think it was in the late 80s. Wasn't it? I think it was in the late, I think it was in the late 80s.
00:07:34
Speaker
thing. I might be wrong in saying that actually but I think it was 82. Yeah because I thought it was 84 license to kill. Yeah it's 89 for license to kill. Yeah it's a very divisive like I've said this before but it's a very divisive part of the franchise where they definitely tried to take it in a different direction and you can you can certainly tell that with it is weird because
00:07:58
Speaker
I feel as if the living daylights, like before we get into all the details and things, I feel as if the living daylights definitely seems
Plot Summaries: Dalton's Bond Films
00:08:06
Speaker
as if it's like a bridge between the universe bond and Dalton's bond. I would say it does its job well in that regard because there are a lot of moments where it feels a bit safe at times.
00:08:19
Speaker
but I suppose that's what they needed to introduce like the new actor compared to what they did with George Lazenby where they just straight up killed his wife and it's like yeah by that I mean James Bond's wife no actually George Lazenby was no that was a brutal method acting they did for George Lazenby yeah that's why he didn't come back for the second film it's like oh Jesus but yeah yeah moving from that like very dark tone
00:08:44
Speaker
So as you can see today we're going to be talking about the Living Daylights and License to Kill, two films that I think a lot of Bond, like would you say a lot of Bond fans would say that these are quite underrated?
00:08:57
Speaker
Oh, well, it depends on your Bond fan, because I do believe Bond is one of these. And it's probably the same with a lot of these sort of big franchises with so many entries and stuff. I believe there's people who like different, you know, lots of different things. Lots of people love Moore's version of Bond, lots of people love Connery's.
00:09:15
Speaker
People love craigs and stuff, so I think it really depends what camp you fall into. Like, definitely if you like Bond now, I would definitely say you'd probably look back at these films and say they are criminally underrated. While, you know, if you maybe preferred Moore's Bond, you might look at these and think that they're deservedly underrated. Sorry, deservedly, like, set aside.
00:09:32
Speaker
I mean, it definitely is a lot, like, as I said, it's a lot darker, I think. Like, I love in daylights, I wouldn't say that's as dark. I feel as if there's a lot of goofy moments in it, whereas, yeah, License to Kill, like, I was rewatching that. Well, we both were for this review. And my God, like, some of them, some of the moments where he offs, like, some of the bad guys is just, how do you explain that? It's just as brutal. Oh, it's brutal. It's brutal.
00:10:00
Speaker
So yeah, without any further ado, we're gonna be, like, going through the films and we're gonna be, you know, we're gonna be talking about different aspects such as the plot, how he fares as Bond, as well as the antagonists and, of course, last but not least, the characters that support him in the film. So I'm gonna hand it over to you.
00:10:20
Speaker
As a challenge, I'm curious to see how you sum up these two films. How would you sum up the Living Daylights and License to Kill? So you want me to do plot summary, like a brief plot summary for both? Yeah, just like... Right, yeah. Okay, so the Living Daylights is a Cold War espionage story.
00:10:40
Speaker
which revolves around the defection of a high-ranking Soviet KGB officer and also the dealings of a rogue American arms dealer and their kind of plan to basically fool the respective British and Soviet intelligence services and basically get rich out of it. They want to get rich. That's sort of their prime motivation out of this, is get rich.
00:11:05
Speaker
For License to Kill, License to Kill is a pure and simple revenge story, which revolves around Bond going out on this path of revenge against this South American drug dealer, drug lord, I should say, he's much more their drug dealer, drug lord, who has grievously wounded one of Bond's close friends and murdered his wife, as in his friend's wife. And yeah, so he goes rogue, you know, he leaves MI6 and he's off on a path of revenge. That's how I'd kind of simply
00:11:33
Speaker
simply try and summarise those two. And sorry I'm just laughing because I'm looking at the picture that I put up for this podcast and I'm looking at how The Living Daylights is rated a PG and over here License to Cow was rated a 15 and there is just such a drastic difference between these plots isn't there? Oh god yeah. Yeah there really is. They are quite like
00:11:55
Speaker
as you say on the east side of the spectrum. As I said, the Living Daylight's plot does, it plays out more like, would you say it plays out more like a Bond film? Living Daylight is far, Living Daylight is far closer.
00:12:08
Speaker
to a classic kind of Bond film and then license to kill certain years. And Living Daylights as well is, Living Daylights is like a much closer to an actual Espian, like a spy film. And if you were to look at like other kind of, outside of the kind of James, cause a lot of times the James Bond films, you know, as much as he is a spy, like they don't always kind of play as spy films, if that makes sense. Because as you say, he's often a terrible, terrible spy, you know, it's not like the Living Daylights is, and it still has it's like moments where it is a Bond film.
00:12:38
Speaker
But I feel it plays much closer to a kind of Cold War espionage, untailed, but yeah, as you say, much closer to a classic Bond film. Because it's still got the kind of, you know, it's got the gadgets, it's got the... I mean, we'll talk about the antagonist kind of later in depth, but the antagonists in this one are very goofy, aren't they? Yeah, they do straight more to the kind of goofy.
00:13:01
Speaker
Goofy side of it. Yeah, I mean there's like one or two of them that are quite formidable but other than that, you know, it's like
00:13:10
Speaker
it's not as serious like I think this came out you know just towards the end of the so as we were saying before a lot of James Bond's are like time capsules based on like you know the time they came out and everything and no more like is it apparent in this film where they kind of discuss like the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the
00:13:34
Speaker
their occupation there and everything and them as you know the superpower that could like change the tide of the war over there or rather the tide of the occupation because they're buying like futuristic guns does that not the yeah they're pretty much buying futuristic for the time weapons yeah and it does kind of i mean it plods along but i think it plods along quite well
00:13:58
Speaker
and I think it does well in kind of incorporating the different like settings as well like I mean you go from where is it it begins again because I know it goes from it starts in Gibraltar like the very first opening scene in Gibraltar and then like the next space Czechoslovakia is Czechoslovakia and then they kind of like have to get somebody across into the border across the border to Austria then you're back in the UK for a bit
00:14:21
Speaker
then he's back to, he goes back to Czechoslovakia and then he goes to Morocco, Tangiers, Morocco? Yeah I think it's Morocco and then Afghanistan as you say and then back to back to finishing Morocco. It's all over the place but like in a good way though like you never feel as if it's unnecessary. I have to admit like the beginning is just so well done I think. Oh it's so good.
00:14:46
Speaker
and I do have to admit, I do laugh every time. So basically, just for anyone who doesn't know, the film starts as like a training exercise for the double O agent. So they all jump out of plane and their goal is they're supposed to like reach this building but all of the soldiers there have got like paintball guns and they're supposed to shoot them and if they shoot them, you know, they're dead quote-unquote but...
00:15:09
Speaker
It's like every time the soldiers like shoot someone and they go, haha, you're dead. And then like two seconds later, because you know plot twist, one of the agents is actually a bad guy and he brings out a gun and he just like shoots him.
00:15:25
Speaker
It was great. It's so kind of over the top but it's just so well done. And the set piece is amazing. Like the way the first agent gets killed off, you know, he has the note on the... he's like climbing up the side of this cliff kind of bit and the guy like hooks on a message.
00:15:45
Speaker
that basically translates as death despise in town and yeah he just cuts the wire and it's just so, you know, it's just such, I honestly think it's one of the strongest starts to a Bond film. Oh definitely. To get tone-setter as well I think for the Dalton era actually. And I mean one of the things that I do like as well is it teases the idea of Bond
00:16:06
Speaker
which I thought was a nice touch you know it's like obviously you know if you pick up the DVD you know it's Timothy Dalton that's gonna be James Bond but like kind of teases the idea of oh who's this gonna be you know you're the guy who like takes off his mask first it's like oh is this gonna be Bond and then it's like oh no it's you know just a random double agent oh what about this guy is that double you know it's like you don't know until like if you were going into this like blind and you didn't know who Bond was it's a good build-up I have to say
00:16:36
Speaker
oh yeah it's such a good honestly i think it's a very strong start as i said though like i feel as if it kind of plods along in some bits like the whole mujahideen scenes and things like i don't know i feel as if like that is where it kind of slogs it doesn't slog too much though
00:16:56
Speaker
I feel as if even the slower bits like when Bond is trying to date the elite female in the film, when he's trying to seduce her for information, those scenes kind of have purpose. Even the scenes that do slog, at least they've got a purpose to them to get from one point to the next. And I do think it is quite well done in that regard. Would you say there's any scenes that do make it kind of plod along?
00:17:25
Speaker
For me, I mean, I can see what you're saying, and I do think it does slow down for bits when it gets there, especially like when they initially land in Afghanistan. I think the pace is still quite quick because, you know, they're captured, but basically bonds captured.
Dark and Gritty: License to Kill
00:17:41
Speaker
him and the lead guy, I think her name's Kharev, I remember rightly. Yeah, they get imprisoned, but they break out quite quickly and then they escape, and then they meet the Mujahideen. And then it does slow down a little bit. For me, and I agree with what you're saying, I think there was points where you would think if it was somebody else being bombed,
00:17:59
Speaker
I think it would definitely, especially those bits where he's like, he is basically dating Kara in Vienna, large parts of that. But I think those scenes work with Dalton because it's a really good character, like it's a really good character study. And you actually get to know a lot about Dalton's bond from those bits in the way that actually he appears like a lot more, a lot more like emotional, like willing to be emotional bond than a lot of the other people like Moore or Connery ever were.
00:18:24
Speaker
so you get that sense but at the same time like you understand that he's basically like he's he's basically like using this woman because he wants to find out like he wants to find out information about her her boyfriend who's the who's like the top level uh KGB officer who's defected um and it and you know he starts to get suspicious of why he's defected and if it's a real defection so he's actually trying to use her to like find out information but those scenes are done really well which i do believe if they'd been in another actor's hands playing Bond they really would have felt like an absolute
00:18:52
Speaker
pace killer and you'd have been like oh my god like the film would have just judder to a halt at these points but i think he carries it quite well i'm just thinking can you imagine like roger mure track like before like i go on to say this like i do like roger mure as a bond like i prefer his like kind of middle stuff like i don't like him at the beginning i don't really like him at the end the kind of those middle films are just right but i can't imagine him doing something like the living daylights
00:19:17
Speaker
like can you imagine Moore doing spy work that's the thing like Dalton is doing Dalton is doing spy work here like Dalton is doing his job when did Moore's bond ever like do his job quote unquote like you know for the sake of doing his job though that wasn't like trying to like trying to get laid
00:19:34
Speaker
Honestly the things that I remember about Mooer's Bond is just every time there was a woman on screen, his neck would like extra snap and go a woman you know it's like oh for goodness sake you know it was the whole like because actually funny enough I'm just trying to think see the female leads in these films they all have like pun names do they? Do you know what they actually do?
00:20:00
Speaker
Yeah, like I just kind of realized that, like Kara, I can't remember her second name, but like... There's not a other name. Yeah. It's not like... And it's the same with them, License to Kill as well, like I can't remember, I know there's... I can't move yeas as well. Yeah, like... Unless I'm completely missing the pun there, I could be missing it, but I don't can't see it after my head. No, me neither actually. Damn, okay.
00:20:24
Speaker
Well, considering they had someone called Dr. Guthead in Moonraker, which I'm not going to go into it too much, but Moonraker's by far one of my least favourite films. I'm just going to throw that in there before we move on. Just the fact it's a blatant copy of the film that came before it.
00:20:43
Speaker
but yeah I couldn't imagine Roger Moore doing something like this I really can't imagine you know because it's not goofy like it's got these funny moments like I was honestly I was really laughing at some of the jokes in this one the first one is when the general is defecting and what they do is apparently this is a real piece of technology although actually
00:21:07
Speaker
Well I don't think the like smuggling a human through it thing is like legit but probably is. I don't know. They would have if they could have probably. Yeah but apparently it's like a thing that like so basically what they do is they to smuggle them out the country they take them to one of the oil pipelines and they've got this piece of like machinery. How to put it? You know it's like kind of thing like barrel.
00:21:30
Speaker
yeah it's like a huge kind of barrel that shoots through the pipe and the idea about it is it's supposed to like cleanse out the pipe from you know from any you know gunge or anything like that and what they do is they convert one of them so they can hide a human inside so it is
00:21:47
Speaker
he puts the general in and he says like oh don't worry general you know our our engineers have been working on this for months and he says how many people have you tested this on and he just says bluntly you're the first and he closes the thing as he's screaming underneath the
00:22:03
Speaker
He's like, ahh! He's just brilliant. I was barely shaking laughing. I cannot stop laughing. They were so funny. And I mean, that's the thing though. It's genuinely got its funny moments. Like another one, of course, is when he confronts who he thinks, or who's been painted as the main bad guy. It's like the red herring, you know? They're saying it's this Russian general that is supposed to be behind it all and he ends up cornering him in his room with his wife and he's like,
00:22:32
Speaker
I think the Russian general says something like, I suppose this isn't a social call. And he says, correct, you should have brought Lily's because he's just brought his wife flowers for their anniversary. And they're just like, oh Jesus. Small moments like that that bring it back to the old ones. You know, like Roger Moon or things like that. It's a small dribble. It's not enough that it's overly silly. It's kind of believable.
00:22:58
Speaker
The bit that always, I was just gonna say sorry, the bit that always makes me laugh. And I don't think you find it as funny. We think we talked about this. We were watching it, but the bit that always makes me laugh is so there's a bit like in the first half of the film where not long after he's met Kara, he manages to like smuggle her basically. He's trying to get her across the Austrian border. And so basically he's got like his souped up Aston Martin and he's just basically trying to like make a run for the border. And he gets, we can start getting chased by like the army and the border police and everything.
00:23:25
Speaker
And, but he's still trying to keep up with this fiction that he's not like a, not a spy. So there's a point where like this police car is like trying to like get them to pull over and he's like, okay, I'll pull everybody. He sets his, like his car has got lasers on his wheels and he basically like cuts like the top half of the chassis of the car off from like the wheel base.
00:23:43
Speaker
And so the border police are like, what the hell? So they break and the top of the car just goes flying off and the staff are dead. She looks at the car and looks at Bond like, what? And then he's just like, oh, salt corrosion. It's so goofy. It just makes me laugh so much.
00:23:58
Speaker
Oh it's such a good... there are like a lot of really like really light-hearted moments I suppose which it is weird because I keep saying this that it's like grounded in more of like a spy film. I definitely think out of the two this is more of a spy film. Oh I definitely think so. Whereas and I'll get to that in a minute but like there's just so much you know so much spy work but you know he's actually doing his job for once.
00:24:26
Speaker
which compared to license to kill like I'm just gonna move on to that because yeah like just to talk about the plot before we go on to talk about the man the myth and the legend himself but license to kill is so much more brutal it like starts off
00:24:42
Speaker
I don't know, I don't know if it starts off as strong as The Living Daylights, but it's definitely more brutal by a long shot. Because The Living Daylights, as I said, it's still, you know, it's still a spy thriller, it still remembers it's James Bond. Whereas the beginning of License to Kill, it begins when the DEA, they find out that a, as you were saying, like a drug lord has basically come out of his hiding hole. But to get his girlfriend back, essentially,
00:25:10
Speaker
And I think that is such an interesting way to introduce the antagonist. He's not stroking a cat behind the monitor or anything. He's not counting these diamonds. He's not got his space station.
00:25:28
Speaker
He's just a very, very horrible man, and that's putting it lightly, but he's just such a horrible man who is just so, like, in the space of just that scene, you see, he's possessive, he's callous, he basically catches his girlfriend, well, quote-unquote girlfriend, in bed with another man, and
00:25:48
Speaker
he just basically starts like punishing her as he says to his men, you know, take the guy out and cut out his heart or something. And you don't see that, but you know, judging by his screams, he can kind of imply that it's not pleasant. Which I don't remember any Bond films starting off that, you know, brutal. I'm trying to remember, but even for the new ones, I mean, well, technically if you include Casino Royale, well, even then,
00:26:13
Speaker
And that was more of an action scene. Yeah, it's not so much brutal. I think the opening scene in Royal is maybe what I'd say like visceral. You know, in the way that it's really hard hitting and, you know, as these two guys are like beating the crap out of each other in this bathroom, like, you know, it's really like, as you say, hard hitting and stuff, but it's not brutal in the way that a bit of License to Kill is.
00:26:33
Speaker
Yeah, because I feel as if Casino is more kind of overtly. You know, like as you said, it's Visceral, it's two guys punching one another and they're just going at it. Whereas for this, it's a lot more calculated. Like, you can imagine he was thinking on the plane ride over, like, oh, what we gonna do? You know, we gonna chop his legs off or something. Because this film gets dark.
00:26:57
Speaker
because what ends up happening is he gets a plane and he ends up nearly escaping until James Bond jumps on his plane and manages to like hook it. They catch him and it ends up that as this is all going on his friend's getting married at the beginning and as you said his friend ends up getting like horribly. It is like a really horrible opening because
00:27:19
Speaker
his friend comes in like after the celebrations are over in the wedding stand he comes in with his wife to celebrate the honeymoon and then they're confronted by his thugs where they've basically killed and god knows what else done to this poor woman and then they tie him up
00:27:35
Speaker
above. See this is weird because in the one hand it sounds like a James Bond you know like trap like hanging over the sharks and usually you know if it was like an older James Bond it would be like always got the laser watch or always gonna get out but this guy just gets absolutely mauled and his leg gets completely gnawed off by the shark you know it's like a very kind of brutal thing and then James Bond like he gets his emotions get the better of him
00:28:04
Speaker
They even say that later on that he was supposed to be in a completely different mission, but he decided to voluntarily stay, which of course upsets his boss, you know, saying, you know, your license to kill, Rogue Credits, has been revoked. So of course he escapes and he just basically just goes rogue and decides to deal with the guy himself. I'm building this up because I love this film, but there are some moments which I didn't remember until you brought them up, which I thought, what the hell is this film doing?
00:28:33
Speaker
you know what I'm gonna bring up because there's a scene where initially and again it says a lot about his character like initially he's just gonna straight up assassinate him he's just gonna kill him off and then it becomes this kind of which is weird I didn't realize it was like it's a bit like an hour in to the film like this is a two-hour film and I think it's like a bit an hour into the film until he actually like meets up with Sanchez and
00:29:00
Speaker
you know like starts kind of pulling the strings from the inside because he really does he gets in his head you know he gets like some of his subordinates killed by you know planting these ideas in his head it's really it's really interesting to see and it's very meticulous like how he does it because there's another horrible scene where he plants money
00:29:20
Speaker
a plant in like this pressure chamber and you know of course Sanchez who is the main villain like you know he's he's shocked he's like how could you do this you know so he like traps them in there and they like burst the pipe so the guy's head explodes like you can actually see it that that's a bit shocked me because i don't remember i remember like seeing the head swell but i didn't remember it blowing up which i can see why this is a 15 like that is
00:29:49
Speaker
It's just such a brutal scene. To put it very bluntly, it is such a brutal scene. And you get other scenes like that, you get people impaled by forklifts, you get people literally, you don't see it but they get, like, grounded into mist.
00:30:04
Speaker
essentially by these like huge machines the plots a lot darker and i think it knows though when to kind of not calm down but you know kind of go slow although the moment so as i was saying before you know like there's some bits that i don't like about it and it was a bit that you brought up when we were watching this film but
00:30:23
Speaker
Ugh, the ninjas. And you might be thinking, if you haven't seen this film, what am I talking about? So basically, when Bond is... In fact, no, sorry. Before we go into that, I'll let you explain this. Because you were the one that really had objection. And it wasn't until I watched it I went,
00:30:45
Speaker
yeah i can i can see why it's
Dalton's Portrayal: A Favorite Bond?
00:30:48
Speaker
there's two there's two scenes from license to kill that i will always that will sear it in my brain one is one is the head explosion i can't remember how well i think i was like 10 or 11 when i really got into the bond films and i started watching them all and i watched this one and i was like
00:31:04
Speaker
10-year-olds, I watched this guy's head explode in the, like, fresh around his chamber. That's forever seared into him. I still find it really hard to, and I, like, you know, I enjoy kind of action films, and I'll happily watch lots of these things, but that's, you know, I always find hard to watch. I think it's because of that, like,
00:31:17
Speaker
That was a romantic memory of when I first saw it. It's horrible. It's absolutely horrible. But that's always the one. And the other scene is this goddamn thing, just because I think it's such a terrible, it doesn't fit into the film at all. But yeah, sorry, anyway, that's that diversion. So yeah, as you said, Bond is basically trying to assassinate
00:31:35
Speaker
uh the the the bad guy is it sanchez yes sanchez yeah so he's trying to assassinate sanchez so he's like basically positioned himself in a building across from like sanchez's penthouse and he's like set some explosives on on on his on the guy sanchez is like a bulletproof window and he's got like he's set up his sniper rifle and he's getting ready to shoot and so the explosion happens like the glass goes down and he's just about to shoot sanchez when this ninja drops down
00:32:01
Speaker
out of nowhere and just like and kicks a gun out of his hand and then basically like another one appears and they both like beat him up basically and like knock him unconscious and then like they drag him back to this deserted hut and then you find out that basically at the same time Sanchez has been a given this like tour to these like um these drug lords from China and one of them one of them turns out to be like a Hong Kong
00:32:23
Speaker
like an undercover agent for like the Hong Kong like narcotics units and he's undercover trying to like get dirt on Sanchez basically and so the ninjas work for him because of course because he's Chinese of course he has to have ninjas working for him
00:32:37
Speaker
You know, don't question it. It just works. So they take on a bomb. But then basically somehow Sanchez manages to track the Ninjas back. So clearly they weren't that stealthy. He's able to track them back to their hideout. And then basically they roll up with an army and blow it up. And then the Ninjas die after one of them does their last...
00:32:54
Speaker
Kung Fu or karate moves or whatever, whatever martial arts they're doing. But yeah, it's not a very long bit, but it just stands out, it's like a sore thumb because you're like, this doesn't belong in the Dalton Bond. This belongs in like the Muir. This belongs in the Muir era of bonds. And it's funny, like, as I was watching, I was thinking about, because we were kind of chatting about this and just what you were saying earlier as well about this like Dalton, the Dalton era, this is kind of set different entity, but also like carrying on trends that had been in the Bond films before. And this is one of them. You're just like, this is clearly a hangover.
00:33:23
Speaker
from the Muir era where it was that kind of, you know, for as great as Muir was as Bond, his Bond was a cartoon character. Like, you know, that was the kind of level he was playing the map. And he did it really, he did it fantastically, like, you know, no shade on him. But that's where that kind of stuff, like stuff like Ninjas belonged in. It didn't really belong in this sort of, like, hard-hitting, like, much more realistic and down-to-earth Bond that Dalton was kind of portraying. So that, for me, it stands like a sore thumb, because you're just like, why? Why is this in here?
00:33:53
Speaker
It doesn't serve any purpose. Cos I mean, at least, see with the old films, like, there is that infamous scene, and, not man with a golden gun, what one is it? It might be Doctor No, but you know the one where it's like, do you expect me to talk? And he says, no, Mr Bond, I... Gold, that's goldfinger. Goldfinger, that was it. Yeah. I knew it was gold something. But, erm, it's like, goldfinger, golden eye, golden gun, you know, same thing. A lot of goldbones, aren't they?
00:34:18
Speaker
A lot of gold. James Bond in those kind of films almost felt like a superhero. And obviously it's like a different time and it's like a different, you know, outlook and like, cinema and things, you know, because it is. He's the action hero. He's always going to survive. And don't get me wrong, he never thought that they were going to cut off Timothy Dalton in these ones. But at the same time, you felt as if he was in a lot more danger.
00:34:42
Speaker
and these ones like especially license the kill it's like he's like hanging like a piece of meat above the so there's a scene where he basically gets called out and he gets found out and there's this machine that's like grinding these cubes of just cubes of narcotics um into powder so they can like funnel it through
00:35:01
Speaker
think it's oil or something? Gasoline. Gasoline, yeah. And he's like hanging over it. And that's another great line where he's hanging over and someone comes to save him and he's like, are you alright? And he's like panicking going, switch this bloody machine off. Such an amazing line. It's so funny because you can see the panic in his face, obviously.
00:35:19
Speaker
these links written off yeah it's you can tell like he's in a lot more danger in these ones even with the ninjas though like that is definitely the bit i think it kills the pacing because it's like you've got the casino you know he's really getting in you know close with sanchez and everything there's great dialogue between the two and then all of a sudden you just get to that bit and it's like yeah ninjas and you're like
00:35:44
Speaker
Okay, okay, fine, fine, we're gonna go back to Moore, aren't we? You know, just, just ridiculously. But, yeah, I think that kinda leads us onto, like, our next point of discussion. That, of course, being the man himself, Timothy Dalton. I know we're kinda touched on it, but... So, between these two films, how would you describe Timothy Dalton? That's his portrayal.
00:36:04
Speaker
His portrayal, I think it's only fair before I start this, I'm just going to lay my cards on the table. Timothy Dalton's my favorite Bond. I think he was perfect. I absolutely love what he did with the character. And I'm so sad that he only got to do two films. So just full disclosure before my unbiased opinion runs rampant.
00:36:26
Speaker
But basically, I found this quote when I was doing some research for this episode. I found this quote from Timothy Dalton himself, which I think really sums up how he played the character of Bond and what he wanted. Because he actually had quite a lot of say in the direction of these films and the direction of actually the franchise under his helm. So he got this quote saying, if you want to believe in the fantasy on screen,
00:36:47
Speaker
then you have to believe in the characters and use them as a stepping stone to lead you into this fantasy world. Now, and what he was saying with that was he was basically talking in direct, you know, talking about the more ones where he was saying that like every single time it was some villain, basically he was out to like for world domination or wanting to destroy the world or whatever. It was always as grandiose, fantastic plot. And you really lost that kind of realism.
00:37:08
Speaker
And it was like a cartoon, like, you know, kind of superhero sort of thing. So he really wanted to bring it back down to Earth and make it this realistic kind of story. And that's why he insisted on having these villains who, you know, while some of them are, some of them in like living daylights are a bit goofy, they are more realistic characters in the sense of like one's an arms dealer. The other one's like this really corrupt, you know, like sleazy KGB like official, which, you know, as much as they are quite goofy, you could believe like these characters existing, like you could believe there's, you know, these people.
00:37:37
Speaker
actually existing in the world and the same with like you know the same with Sanchez and licensed tequila you can totally believe there's this this horrible like nasty I think you use the term like nasty and possessive man that he is just out there is like so they do feel much more realistic and that's what he brought with Bond as well he really brought a character who was really like nuanced
00:37:56
Speaker
and really actually felt like you really felt like this was somebody who operated in this world and just the fact that he played him like such a jaded man like just somebody who'd like seen so much and was just was exhausted was really actually sick and exhausted of what he was doing but didn't like
00:38:11
Speaker
he didn't have any other like didn't have any other ideas what to do and just perhaps he just resigned himself to this world this murky world that he lived in where you know like he lost his wife and you know he was never going to find happiness or fulfillment or anything it was just this but you know he still believes like right i've got a job to do and everything
00:38:27
Speaker
And that's what it was. It was a man who was like just dedicated to his job, even though he hated it. And clearly it was killing and destroying him. And that really came across. And that's, and he was, that's why he was able to show a bond that was far more, far more kind of nuances. I said, and I actually showed emotion as well. The fact licensed to kill is basically him losing control and his anger, like overtaking is just, is the ultimate sign of that, you know, giving into this in a way that somebody like Connery's bond.
00:38:52
Speaker
was just so stoic and like a man of stone like you know never really showed any kind of emotion. Even to the point that I was joking to you before like in the film Diamonds are Forever is the film that takes place after Bond's wife is killed and from like if you didn't have that context there's no way you could ever tell from Sean Connery's performance that the man he's supposed to be chasing in that film was the man who murdered his wife.
00:39:12
Speaker
It literally looks like he's the guy who like dinged his wing mirror. He's just chasing him down to get him to pay like the 20 to 30 pound or whatever 50 pound is to get it fixed, you know. But while a scene like the wedding scene in License to Kill, you can clearly see at one point it like really affects him with it all as he like thinks back to his like dead wife. And it like really becomes like almost too much room. So he's got to get out of there. And that like, how long is that scene? Is it like 30 seconds? Something like that. Yeah. There's a really
Emotional Depth in Bond Films
00:39:38
Speaker
good scene.
00:39:38
Speaker
So much more in that there's so much depth and complexity in that that you really get a sense of this character And so yeah like just building just building this Dalton was really building this bond that was a believable man And you're like cause like this is this world that he lives in and it kind of stripped away it did strip away a lot of that kind of glamour and that sort of like you know like the only kind of mystique of any like
00:40:00
Speaker
God, like, imagine this horrific life of, like, horrible it would be to be like somebody in this situation. So that's what he was really going for. I think he really actually nailed so much of it. Because I do think, like, going back to, you know, talking about the whole plot point about his wife dying, whenever people talk about the Dalton era, they always say, and this is, I think I said to you before, but this is a very unfair comparison, when they'll turn around and say something like, oh, you know, he's just like George Lazenby.
00:40:27
Speaker
you know in the sense that all both of them only had you know a couple of films or in Lazenby's case one film to like show themselves as Bond and then they didn't get another one but I feel as if that's really unfair because first of all like this is a whole Chatsunami episode in itself but Lazenby's film like had this plot point that was essentially brought up in all the other films because I mean even Roger Moore has like two instances where I think
00:40:54
Speaker
I can't remember what film, in one film he puts like flowers at the grave side. I think that's What Your Eyes Only, he does that. And even in The Spy Who Loved Me, that was it. In The Spy Who Loved Me, he's talking to the, I can't remember if she's a KGB agent or she's something like that. She's like an agent. She's Soviet, certainly. Yeah.
00:41:12
Speaker
and I think she says something about marriage or something that really ruffles his feathers and you can see him getting visibly uncomfortable and you know it's that kind of plot point that for some reason you're not up until obviously they rebooted it with Daniel Craig like it's something that's like being quite integral to his character and I feel as if it does give him a bit of depth as we were saying before with like Roger Moore he's a lot more goofy you know he's
00:41:39
Speaker
he's a flirter he's not a spy essentially whereas with Dalton it is weird because he's got like a lot of moments where you can see the cracks in his emotions like one of the things I thought was really interesting especially in the living daylights was how he basically used Kara he was like the main love interest
00:42:00
Speaker
and modern daylights. He begins with flirting with her because she is the girlfriend to one of the main antagonists that defected. I think it's General Koskov. He pretends that he knows her and he's
00:42:18
Speaker
There's something really is quite assertive, you know, saying, let's just kiss, and she's like, oh no, we mustn't. And you're like, oh yeah, let's. And if you look at it in the way that he's just, like, morally, obviously, morally bankrupt, but if you look at it in the sense of,
00:42:33
Speaker
he is doing this for, you know, to track down this guy as a spy. He's quite cold in that way but one of the scenes that I actually thought was quite intricate, like it's a very small scene but there's a scene where, you know, when she gets the cello back? Yeah. So like there's a scene where Kara gets arrested and he breaks into her apartment to like get her out so that basically so that the Soviets don't
00:42:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's the Soviets, isn't it? Or the KGB. I think it's like the Czechoslovakian police, but you've actually got orders of the Soviets. I always wanted to say Soviets for class. But yeah, it's like they're trying to basically keep a tab on her and there's one scene where she says that she really wants her cello and she keeps saying, you know, he keeps going, no, we're not getting your cello.
00:43:22
Speaker
yeah it's quite a nice scene where it's like I know it's meant to be played for us but like it cuts like immediately it's like we're not going back for your cello and then it like hard cuts to him sitting outside waiting for her to get her chair. And I do like he's quipped when they turn trying to ghost you should have picked the violin or something like that.
00:43:44
Speaker
And it just shows that kind of compassion. It's something that's quite surprising because you can definitely tell he is quite an emotional bond. Yeah. But sometimes, as you were saying, sometimes he likes to get the better of him, especially in license to kill.
00:44:01
Speaker
like as I was saying he has another assignment and I think it's Istanbul that Em says you know you were supposed to be there and you're not you know he's got a job to do for King and country and as callous as it is to say like that's what they say oh we have obviously got no jurisdiction here it's you know leave it to the Americans that's what Em says to him leave it to the Americans and he just can't process that he's just like this you know his friend has been killed or not killed sorry but maimed horribly his wife's been murdered
00:44:30
Speaker
would you say it's a different bond in like both films or would you say he kind of keeps the same tone? I think he builds upon it like I think what the groundwork that's laid in Living Daylight is really built upon and kind of comes to fruition in License to Kill and like if I could just jump briefly back to like
00:44:50
Speaker
uh living daylights like i think i really love like the love story quote and quote between james between bond and cara living daylights because i think i think it's one of the best like love stories in any of the bond films oh yeah and it reveals so much about bond and i think it's so much about dalton's bond like because the way it starts if you remember so basically the it starts he first meets her so basically they're trying to arrange this him and another agent trying to arrange this defection of of koskov
00:45:15
Speaker
and basically Kostkov's gonna make a run for it across the street and he's told them, oh there's a KGB sniper who's out to kill me, so Bond is sent there to kill the sniper and so Bond sets up a sniper rifle and that's when you first see, that's one of the first times you see Kara, she's got a sniper rifle in the window and the other is just like, oh there he is, killer and stuff, but Bond refuses to kill her because he then says, he could instantly tell she's not a professional.
00:45:37
Speaker
and here's that line like he's like I only kill professionals and then as well like the other agent's like well I'm gonna report you and stuff and to me though it's actually a great little bit of dialogue with Timothy Dalton that Timothy Dalton's like good tell him like you know and I don't care if he fires me and I'll thank him for it and stuff and it really shows this world weary bond that then is developed on and built upon in License to Kill where you see a man who is just like who just has no control over his emotions anymore
00:46:02
Speaker
And it's just such a, you know, it's like, he's such a jaded character in Living Daylights, but that gets like pushed so much more in License to Killers. This one event just triggers all this like, this hate and this rage and this anger that's clearly just built up inside of him. And he's just, he's been trying to keep her like a lid on with this like cynical, the cynicism and you know, this, just this kind of tone. So I think they actually build upon each other really well.
00:46:24
Speaker
Now I would agree with that. I would say he's definitely a lot more emotional and licensed to kill. He's a lot more hot-headed because in the living day likes, what I like about it, and this might sound weird talking about a spy, but he's very adaptable to his situation. So that scene you were talking about earlier where
00:46:45
Speaker
because i do love that i love the comparison between him and the other agent yeah so basically i can't even remember the agent's name i don't think it's Saunders is it Saunders yeah because he's not even like a fellow i don't think he's a double agent is it no he's not he's like some kind of
00:47:01
Speaker
He is, it's a good point, but he's not a double O agent. Aye, because he is an agent that's been put onto this case, and he makes a huge thing about it, saying, you know, this is my case, or not case, but you know, this is my mission, you know, don't mess it up, Bond. And he scolds him for missing the girl. But that's the thing, that tells you so much about Bond's character in this film.
00:47:23
Speaker
It shows you that he's adaptable to the situation. He's not willing to follow orders if his gut senses that something is off because the general plot of it is that they start blaming a Russian or a Soviet general called General Pushkin and they keep saying that he is the one who's going around killing off spies and things. It's like the cadets kind of dangled
00:47:48
Speaker
in front of his face you know they're like oh you know you've got to kill him you've got to kill this man who is just who is basically killing off your colleagues and things but that's the thing like it's not him spoilers but you know it's like and even it's kind of a horrible scene but you can see how ruthless he is
00:48:10
Speaker
and how he uses the surroundings so there's a scene where he confronts Pushkin and he could easily have just shot him in the back of the head and that would be it but he ends up ambushing him and his wife is in the same room and she's of course terrified and there's one moment where to distract one of the guards coming in because he sets off like a silent alarm he like tears off the woman's you know bathrobe so she's like completely exposed and
00:48:38
Speaker
Like in that sense, when the guard comes in, he of course just sees her giving him the chance to just beat him up essentially, or slam the door in his face and throw him across the room. And that's the thing, it shows how ruthless he is.
00:48:54
Speaker
But I mean, he also throws a towel to her right after. He shows how he's willing to use his environment around him to get what he wants, if you know what I mean, and to kind of get out of trouble. He's very resourceful in that way, I would say. I mean, if you saw that in any of the other Bond films, you would definitely think, oh, it's just like a misogynist thing. If that happened in the Bond, like Roger Moore's or Sean Connery's, I bet you any money there would be a scene where he would raise his eyebrow or something.
00:49:22
Speaker
Exactly, that's why I was thinking there'd definitely be some ogling of what they have to do in that. You're totally right. Whereas when he does that, there's a purpose to it. He does it to distract the guard and then immediately, as soon as the guard's taken out, he throws a towel on her and tells her to get out, go in the bathroom, lock it.
00:49:41
Speaker
don't come out and that's what is interesting about this bond it's not just that I don't want to call him a meme machine but you know what I mean it's not just he's not just there to you know flirt with anything with two legs he's not there to you know he's just got so much more depth to him and it's the same like later on when I mean just in general like
00:50:04
Speaker
Although I have to admit it is quite funny when I'm just thinking see one of his gadgets. So he gets this gadget where he can really send gas from this like keychain but he can also blow it up with a certain whistle. So I think he sings early whistles, eh, rue britannia for it to have like a smoke come out of it and then to blow it up it's like a wolf whistle. Which I have to admit is quite a funny touch. It is a funny guy, he crushes the guy.
00:50:30
Speaker
Can I just say though, I know we're going to talk about the antagonist soon, but can I just say it's great that they finally got representation for the world's first Warhammer player as the antagonist.
00:50:50
Speaker
Yeah, so in case you're wondering what I'm talking about, one of the main characters, or the main antagonist who is selling the arms to the Russians has this whole room. So basically he's got all these statues or modes of himself dressed up as famous, or infamous rather, dictators like, you know, Kingis Khan.
00:51:12
Speaker
Hitler, things like that and he goes into this room and I kid you not it's just filled with like tabletop dioramas with all these mini figures of like famous battles like the battle of Waterloo. What was the other one that he does? He's refined the battle of Gettysburg when Bond rolled.
00:51:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's on. It's so surreal. It's like that episode of Twin Peaks, you know, with this recreate of the Civil War. It's like, what is going on with this guy? And it's just this crazy. I'll come to him in a minute though. Going back to Bond for a second. In License to Kill. See, this is the thing. I feel as if, although Bond is very meticulous,
00:51:50
Speaker
He is definitely a lot more hotheaded and emotional and licensed to kill. Like I feel as if at least in The Living Daylight. Well no, actually. I was gonna say even more hotheaded. But see if you think about it. In The Living Daylight there's a scene where he's meeting up with a fellow agent who gets assassinated right in front of him.
00:52:08
Speaker
he literally pulls out his gun in the middle of like a fun fair to chase the guy down but of course you can't find him because the assassin escapes and then you go like from this major shift from him being very lovey-dovey with you know Cara and everything and oh you're beautiful and oh look at this to no we're leaving the plane tomorrow and she's like oh can't we stay and now she's just like no we're going to war like it gets very emotional but that
00:52:37
Speaker
As you said, it goes back to that idea of he's very weary, you know, he's very weary about his life as a special agent, he's very just tired of it all. And especially with License to Kill, like I was watching or not, well I think it was, I was listening to a review of License to Kill like a while ago and there was a scene they brought up basically saying that it was a stupid thing for him to do. So basically he hides himself on a boat of one of like the main henchmen
00:53:04
Speaker
and he gets like help from one of his friends like one of the other groomsmen at the wedding that he was at and the guy ends up getting caught and killed and they tie him up and they've just like got him hanging basically like you know a fish and you know they're just like laughing that you know he's dead body and gloating you know all haha and
00:53:26
Speaker
basically Bond goes nuts, doesn't he? He grabs like a... so this is what the guy was saying, or the reviewer, he said something like, oh it's stupid because he should have gone back and devised a plan, you know, and all of this, you know. But in the heat of the moment when you see like, when you know your best friend has been killed by this drug lord that this guy's working for and then you see another guy who's done nothing wrong getting murdered, you know, by these guys as well and strung up like a piece of meat. He just grabs a harpoon and he turns around and he says something like,
00:53:55
Speaker
who the guy named the guy who died sends his regards and he just shoots them and then of course he makes his big bombastic getaway and everything and that's what follows but it shows how impulsive he can be. I mean even the thing where, although I hate the ninja scene as well, at least that kind of highlights how dangerous it would have been if he actually killed Sanchez because that's what
00:54:21
Speaker
the guy who captures Bond at that point says he's like I've been working for years on this case you know he gets very angry with him because it's like he's so close to like disrupting the whole organization rather than just one guy who probably would get replaced if he was killed off and it's just interesting to see like he's not considering that he's just considering I mean I think like
00:54:44
Speaker
Is it not Pan the other CIA agent who says that? She basically turns around and says, you know, it's not... this isn't all about your personal vendetta, there's so much more that you're not taking into consideration. And it's an interesting spin on it. And that's the thing though, it's not about someone trying to take over the world, it's not someone... It is the story of a very, very horrible man. And again, I'll get to that in a minute, but
00:55:11
Speaker
yeah it's just this horrible guy who is just causing like all this pain he's basically pissed off the wrong special agent essentially and you can see that he gets very emotional about it bond i mean he gets very and i think he does it very well even going as far as to like threatening you know the
00:55:30
Speaker
Well, again, not girlfriend, but you know what I mean, Sanchez's lover threatening hard on everything until... Because he does, he just explodes at the drop of a hat on that film. I suppose it's quite good for the build-up at the end, like it builds it up and he's, you know, he's... I wouldn't say he's a changed man at the end.
00:55:48
Speaker
But he's a lot happier, I think. Yeah. Oh, definitely. I think he gets a sense of closure, I suppose. Yeah. Well, that's fair for you. Maybe happy's not the right word, but yeah, closure. Although there is one scene. There is one. In fact, two scenes I want to point out at the end of License to Kill. I just don't understand.
00:56:08
Speaker
The first one of course being like when he gets together with the CIA agent there's a scene where like he jumps into the pool and he starts like kissing her and it pans around and there's this like fish statue that winks. I don't get that.
00:56:26
Speaker
I think it's supposed to be like a kind of cheeky nod to the end and everything. I mean, did you get that? Do you know what? It's funny. The more I look at it, License to Kill is bookended. The two bookends at the start and the finish of License to Kill give you no indication of what the majority of the film is going to be like. Because obviously that ending is again more like a classic Bond.
00:56:49
Speaker
getting the girl kind of ending and it's again that winking fish is something that could be could have come out of the more era and even like even the start of the film as much as like you know we have that kind of bit where he's like tells tells the sentiment to cut the guy's heart out and stuff the rest of that opening is very much a classic kind of like james bond like action like opening like action heavy with some kind of crazy stunt in it you know and i don't think it really gives you any if you don't know license to kill by its reputation
00:57:15
Speaker
And you don't know the maturity and the tone of it. There's nothing in that opening that I think is going to tell you really what the film is going to be like. And the ending is the same as well. The ending almost feels like from a different film in a way as well. So it's interesting that like, and I think the opening is really clever for not giving it away. Like the ending, I agree, it's weird that it has that, it is a film. They wanted to have that magical kind of like Hollywood, like nice arc.
00:57:44
Speaker
I mean call me a cynic but see the other bit that I don't like about the ending is when he phones Felix in the hospital and he seems very happy. He's quite chipper. He's very chipper for someone who A has lost his leg and B has lost his wife. Like both in the same, I would assume, week.
00:58:03
Speaker
like a very short period of time it just seems a bit kind of like oh look yay we did it and it's like yeah i don't want to be like the bearer of bad news but did you hit your head as well wouldn't you maybe maybe something on morphine or something in the hospital yeah probably yeah let's just say that's the
00:58:20
Speaker
You know, a perfect ending then. Perfect ending, 10 out of 10. And yeah, speaking of bad endings, nah it's not a bad ending, but speaking of, you know, that.
The Antagonists: Unique and Impactful?
00:58:29
Speaker
Oh god, like where do we begin with the antagonists? Let's start with the living daylights. Like, how would you rate the antagonists and the living daylights?
00:58:38
Speaker
They're not the best Bond antagonists, but I don't think they're anywhere close to being the worst. It's what I'll say. So there's three main ones. So you have Georgy Koskov is the KGB officer who's defected, who's just a really sleazy corrupt
00:58:57
Speaker
and i think the actor the actor plays him well i think the character is the character does feel like a realistic character and has played well i think he's in the film too much and i don't think he works as a as a really primary antagonist i think he would have worked better as a secondary antagonist is what i would say you've then got kind of his body gods
00:59:15
Speaker
I've forgotten the guy's name. It begins with an N. Does it have a name? There is something, I can't remember his name, but like he's this basically pure like muscled guy who's like really athletic and he's kind of a call back to you might say something like odd job or there's the guy from Russia with love. He read Grand or something. I think his name is really physically imposing guys. And I think he does well. I think he does that well of being the physically imposing kind of guy and like giving Bond like a run for his money and like
00:59:45
Speaker
in a fight and they have a, they have a, I like their fight that they have, like their climatic fight in the back of the plane, I think is, is really good. It's pretty, it's pretty tense. So I think he's, he's quite well done and he, he, he does well of what he is a very secondary antagonist and he does that well. And then you've got a Whitaker, I think, who is the, who's the American arms dealer.
01:00:04
Speaker
and I don't... I'm kind of conflicted on him because he is a goofy character but I think there's a lot in there that makes him really compelling as a protagonist and it's because he does appear quite different and it's like I really like
01:00:21
Speaker
a lot of the kind of details they give her about him without so much telling you. They do a lot of showing not telling with him and I think it's really clever. That hallway, so as you said, he has a hallway where he has all these famous dictators and commanders.
01:00:36
Speaker
from history. As you said like Hitler's in there getting his car and being Oliver Cromwell's in there. There's all these different people at Napoleon's in there and like the fact that the faces are all modeled on Whittaker's face I think is a really really clever detail because it tells you a lot about the character and so basically
01:00:52
Speaker
he's like set himself up as this like head of this private army and he like he has this whole reputation he's like this you know like great commander and it was like this like this great military service behind him and you find out that's completely like true like he like he got kicked out of uh west point which is the big american military academy for cheating
01:01:08
Speaker
and he then spent some time as a mercenary where he presumably got up to some dodgy dealings and then he's basically been working with criminal organizations the rest of it so he's built this whole lie and facade about himself and just seeing those like him like projecting himself onto these like
01:01:24
Speaker
quote unquote like great military leaders of history, tells you a lot about his mind and his megalomania and the fact is well that when Bond confronts him he's like refighting the battle of Gettysburg and like winning it for the Confederate stuff tells you a lot about him as well I think which is really clever and I actually really like I love the setup of his like villa and I wish I wish that fight between him and Bond had actually been like prolonged because I think they could have done a lot of kind of like
01:01:47
Speaker
cool stuff in there like there's some really cool stuff like where he's got his kind of futuristic weapons and he's like he has his like gadgets all around so he's able to like get this thing to like light a cannon at one point which i think is quite a cool like guy thing so he's not like the greatest and like the most memorable
01:02:02
Speaker
Villain I would say with ticker but I there's something that draws me to something that draws me to this character I think it's a lot of the way they like Build up like him that the universe around him and stuff I think is just really well done is in terms like world building and character building see I could be shooting myself like in the foot here But I honestly think that there's probably too many villains or antagonists rather and the living daylights. It's probably a fair point like
01:02:27
Speaker
i mean you've of course got general koskov who's the defector you've got general pushkin who is the i mean i think he was supposed to be licensed to kill but i think they scrapped it there was of course the bodyguard who has to be in it you know it's the muscle yeah and
01:02:42
Speaker
And then you've of course got Whittaker and it's weird because I think maybe it's not like there's too many but maybe it's more that there isn't as much focus between them or there's not focus on the right people. I don't have to admit I was laughing. Have you seen Faulty Towers? Oh yeah. Yeah, do you remember the scene where John Cleese says that he fought in the Korean War?
01:03:03
Speaker
and everything and they keep saying, you know, they keep saying to people like, I was a soldier, you know, I fought in the Korean War and then his wife turned round immediately after and says he was in the culinary corps and they poisoned like half a division or something. It's like, jeez, that's what reminded me of like Whitaker when he's like, you know, I just said,
01:03:24
Speaker
Yeah, it's like when he's saying, oh I'm, you know, this great, you know, soldier general. And it's quite interesting because we notice like, see his guards, like he's soldiers, quote unquote, you know, they're like marching around really, you know, exaggerated.
01:03:40
Speaker
and there's almost that need for a ticket and he's villa because you can see even the guard is or the soldier like he marches you know like as I said over the top and then he stands at ease and you can tell like he keeps having to tell them at ease you know you can go away kind of thing and they're waiting for the roach so you can tell he runs a tight ship you know he's very meticulous and everything I've touched on the Warhammer collection
01:04:07
Speaker
That's maybe the best line. I think that's your best line from Chatsunami. Oh my god, I killed me. I mean, it's true though. It's like, he's got all of these models, which, I mean, it puts all my models to shame. No, I don't have a room like that, by the way, I'm not saying. One day. One day, yeah. Yeah, they'll be reenacting the fight of, you know, what, I can't even remember. I wore a hammer right off the top of my head, but let's just insert, you know. Let's just pretend I know what I'm talking about with that, but...
01:04:35
Speaker
But yeah, you've got him who's basically like a massive man-child. You've got... Do you know what I do like though? I do like the muscle guy because what I find interesting about him is he doesn't seem like a gimmick. He's very intelligent, like there's a scene where he infiltrates the base and I think it actually has one of the best psych characters in the film, Green Floor.
01:05:00
Speaker
I remember the first time I watched this, I didn't watch The Living Daylights, The License to the Capitol, I think later on when I was in University, that's when I bought the DVD, so I was like, 30 year university, so a good maybe, I mean what year is it now? It's like the years are going by. Jokes aside, yeah it was a good like,
01:05:18
Speaker
seven years ago maybe or like six or seven years ago was like the first time I'd watched it and I remember I was watching it with a friend and we were just like cheering at see the bit where basically the guy or the main muscle antagonist goes around like donning different accents which is something I forgot about and he does it really well like
01:05:41
Speaker
Initially he's joking and he pretends to be an American tourist and then he strangles the milkman but what I love is he's got like a kind of groat wire and he's um headphones at least I think so I'm assuming so and it's like every time he goes to strangle someone the music from it blares
01:05:59
Speaker
just to make a point that's what he's using and i thought it's kind of a nice touch but what i like is he kills off like the chef and just as he's about to you know infiltrate the place this um just this nameless, well not nameless but this agent comes in called green floor and he puts up like one hell of a fight
01:06:17
Speaker
It's a really well done choreograph fight because it's like the guys are using, this is something I was saying about the daughter there but he uses his environment which I thought was really clever like the antagonist tries to burn his face on the grill which he does kind of but then he pushes him back and he hits him
01:06:37
Speaker
with a pan and then you know the bad guy like throws like a pot of scald and mortar at him and he has to dodge it you know and then he's trying to like kill him with the you know meat cleaver you know it's like a very brutal scene like you know if you think it's you know where I was brutal like that is.
01:06:53
Speaker
He's probably on par, I would say. They're both, you know. They're that desperate scene where he's got the electric carver and he's basically just gonna slice his face. And he's struggling trying to unplug it with his foot. And it is, it's just such an intense scene. But yeah, rest in peace for Green Four.
01:07:13
Speaker
Do you know what it reminds me of that season? It reminds me of when I play Hitman and I'm like, here's my carefully flat right, I've taken this guy out and I'm going to hide his body. And he walks in and he's like, oh shit. You have to go in old guns blazing and just pick everybody up and throw your explosive bottles of milk around. That was amazing. Yeah, so he still gets his milk van costume and he just grabs it.
01:07:38
Speaker
And he just starts chucking them and blowing up the room. It's when he's on the radio and he's like, oh, we've got a gas leak here. Get away from the main building. And he throws an open bottle and he just explodes. We've had an explosion, didn't ya? See, that's the thing. He's got a really good range of accents. That makes him more believable because one of the things that obviously is parodied a lot in James Bond is how the antagonists stick out like a sore thumb.
01:08:06
Speaker
you know, like Jaws, Odd Job, The Man with the Golden Cut, The Scan of Magra, as a... they stick out. Like, you would spot them a mile off and go, oh Jesus, the time is near. Whereas, with this guy, like, he actually blends in, and that kind of gets more credibility to this being more of a spy film. And especially with the Cold War setting, I mean, it's such a good setting as well, because obviously it's history, but, you know, it's such a good backdrop to have this film set against, and
01:08:33
Speaker
like the fact he goes from an American accent to beating poor green flour to a pulp and then yeah as you said putting on the English accent being like yes there's a gas leak please evacuate and then he blows up the rim it's like oh my god get him out of here I just
01:08:49
Speaker
oh it's so good but yeah i feel as if they had more focus on the bad guys maybe but maybe if there was like a scene or two extra because um general koskov is very he's very flamboyant and wittaker as well is quite over the top which makes me think
01:09:07
Speaker
like this is what I was saying earlier when I was saying this is a very safe bond villain to transition because you've got two, you know, you've got two over-the-top antagonists that, you know, they just seem like your typical, you know, bond villains. They don't seem like the serious, oh, they're gonna kill you, like that engine is terrifying. Don't get me wrong, that guy would be terrifying if he came up against them but those two are kind of like,
01:09:34
Speaker
As we've said, considering they have the fight to the end with the futuristic guns and the tabletop simulation and everything, they're not bad villains. They're kind of mid-tier villains. They're not ones you would have in your top Trump stick for this. They're not ones you'd be pulling out going,
01:09:58
Speaker
I choose my Whitaker card you know against like blue fill or scatter manga or you know bad insanity unless your top trump card happens to have like a like a modeling line if it's like modeling then Whitaker's gonna have like a hundred compared to like I don't know golfing group probably has like a 20 or something like you know as a zero because he can't do any fucking modeling with his like robot hands and everything so
01:10:22
Speaker
Well, if he had the chance then maybe he could of. Maybe he could of. We don't know. If it was a mod off. A mod off, yeah. Yeah, Whittaker. Top 10 warhammer players. And I can't believe we're moving on from
01:10:37
Speaker
That's weird because I'm being like, yeah, so we've got a Warhammer player, a flamboyant Soviet, and a deadly milkman. And then we go into license account when it's like, yeah, we've got a ruthless drug lord, we've got... I mean, who are the other... well, basically it's henchmen.
01:10:55
Speaker
really he's like sadistic like crazed henchmen yeah young young when he killed El Toro yeah because i don't i don't think they're as like they're memorable as kind of villains you know like henchmen but no i don't know i don't think they stand out as much i think sanchez just steals the show that's the thing i think he's too good of a villain that he just walks into the room and you're like Jesus Christ this guy is amazing being the villain
01:11:24
Speaker
And there's even like, it's, what I like is he's so charismatic as well. Just purely the fact that, I mean, you could say he's kind of like a parallel to Bond, like he's kind of cold, he's meticulous, you know. He's got very similar traits to Bond, but he also gets very emotional in the sense that, like, obviously Bond wouldn't kill, obviously wouldn't kill people who pissed him off unless it was, you know, for national security or whatever, or if it's for his own safety, but
01:11:54
Speaker
you know it's like the difference is it's like he's willing obviously to go that step further and he's created like basically an empire out of it which is terrifying yeah i mean like there's a scene where you see him pay off the i suppose the el presidente
01:12:09
Speaker
that's it we're of the country that they're in and yeah it just shows like who you know butters the braid in that country it's like it's not it's obviously not the president it's him remember president you're only president for life it's a great like threatening so good yeah
01:12:27
Speaker
yeah just for context yeah that's what he says to the president as he goes to leave because he says his um paycheck is a lot smaller this month and Sanchez basically turns around and says oh well it's because he didn't vouch for me when I was in prison and you know it's just like such a good line when he just rebuts him and says you know you're only president for life and it's like you know that way it's just like a mic drop moment you're like yeah and then there's like the kind of
01:12:55
Speaker
I feel weird calling it a bromance but you know between Bond and Sanchez where it's like Bond is trying to get in his head but he's just so charismatic that like for something to do forget like he's this horrible evil man
01:13:10
Speaker
And then you're like, oh, why isn't Bond working? And then the next scene, you're like, oh, yeah, evil, evil drug lord. Whoops. But no, he does it so well. And he's just so, as I said, he's so ruthless and he's got such great one liners. Like there's a scene at the end where they're driving these oil tankers with all the drugs in them that have been kind of filtered in and smuggled.
01:13:32
Speaker
and they all get blown up and he's got this like business associate from America who is more... I feel sorry for him because he's more interested in you know preserving like the drugs. He spots the money in, yeah. Yeah it's like he's like said to him oh we've got a business deal with like the Chinese and everything and he's like he's more concerned about like
01:13:56
Speaker
the company looking good and the money rather than Sanchez who just wants to make it out alive and you're all killed bond and there's a great line where you know the guy starts screaming at him where i'm thinking why would you scream at this guy and he turns out to says maybe we should start cutting back and cut overhead yeah and then he just guns him down and it's like oh you shouldn't have done that you should not have done
01:14:20
Speaker
It's like, why would you do that? But, yeah, I would say, like, out of the two films, he is by far the strongest villain. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that point you made, actually. Sorry, sorry. I love that point you made of him being like,
01:14:33
Speaker
him and Bond being the same coin, but just different sides. I think that is what makes it so perfect, in that, as you say, they are both cold, calculating men, but with just this irrational streak. Me and you were both laughing towards the end, basically, so they get to Sanchez' big drug factory, and Bond manages to do something that makes it start exploding and it's blowing up. And even as this whole place is blowing up around him, Sanchez still finds time to
01:15:00
Speaker
to get this henchman who's betrayed him and like like scare him on a forklift at this time and you're like uh then just as you said as well we're using guns down this like financial guy who's clearly clearly like a great asset to the business but he's just like i'm sick of his whining like gun him down though it's just it's just a really they're really well done for being how close they are just but obviously they're just in opposition over this like you know over this like
01:15:25
Speaker
that happens at the beginning and I mean it's not even it's like the small things that really sell them as a you know bad guy because I'm just thinking back to see when they're in the casino and it's him with his girlfriend not girlfriend lover you know
01:15:41
Speaker
Like I feel really bad saying like girlfriend because it is like such an abusive relationship. It's not a happy relationship. It definitely isn't though. It's just such like a controlling relationship and that's kind of highlighted very subtly. Well maybe not subtly but there's a scene where they're in the casino and he's got a pet iguana I think and the iguana's got like this diamond necklace on which I think he's lover like takes back at the end but even still it's kind of like
01:16:10
Speaker
it's like small touches like that that kind of shows like disregard for her. It's kind of like, oh look I've got a lizard with a you know it's all blinged out and it's like it's like you're such a bastard. It's like you're such a horrible, horrible person but the guy sells it so well because he's so charismatic and everyone like knows when to toe the line. I mean the only other guy or the only other villain I can think of as well is well first of all I didn't realize that the actor was a guy from Twin Peaks.
01:16:40
Speaker
So I was messaging you actually. I didn't realise either. Yeah, because I don't realise it's, if any of you have watched Twin Peaks out there, it's the character, I kind of remember what his full name is, it's Big Head anyway, that's what he's called in Twin Peaks. But it's the same actor from that. So it's quite fun, you know, seeing that same actor and being like, ah son, you know, yay. And yeah, I thought he
01:17:03
Speaker
he did quite well. So basically he plays, I think, is it like a D.A. mole or something like that? Yeah, it corrupts you. Yeah.
01:17:13
Speaker
gets like paid off and everything and I think he does his job well he's not in it for very long like he's in it at the very beginning and a couple of scenes and then Bond like takes him out in one of the most ruthless ways possible and like my favorite my favorite like Bond killing any of the in any of the films is that one it's so good I'll let you explain it sorry yeah sorry no sorry sorry to go but I just love that one um like
01:17:37
Speaker
So yeah, so he's like a corrupt agent. So Sanchez pays him like pays the guy like $2 million to help him escape and then like capture him, like Bond's friend. Um, and then, so basically a bond manager to track him down and he's in this warehouse. And then like, just as he thinks he's got the upper hand on bond, like a series of things happen and the guy ends up like.
01:17:54
Speaker
the corrupt agent ends up hanging over the same shark tank that Bond's friend got his leg bitten off in, and he's hanging over it, and he's hanging over Dear Life, and Bond's there. And the suitcase with the $2 million is sitting next to Bond, and the corrupt agent's like, well, in that case, it's $2 million. If you let me go, I'll split it with you. And then Bond just slowly picks up the case and just looks over and says,
01:18:17
Speaker
like it's your money you earned it and he just throws the case at him and just like clatters him in the chest and he just like falls straight into the into the shark tank and like gets eaten and it's just like it just it sums up license to kill so perfectly just that one of like Bond's character of like the brutality of the film like like you know how different the film is from so many other Bond films and I think
01:18:40
Speaker
You know, I agree with you with the exception of Sanchez, like, there's not that many memorable, like, villains licensed to kill. Like, Beniko Dutoro has, he's not in it very much, but he has some, like, quite good moments. But I think what's really memorable about the villains and, um, and licensed to kill is how they die. They all pretty, all the main ones have pretty, like, memorable and horrific deaths. So you obviously got that guy who gets, like, smacked in the chest with two million dollars and eaten by a shark.
01:19:07
Speaker
Benico del Toro is like ground up into like red paste, red mist, as we said in the grinder. Yeah, that's horrible. Another guy is skewered on a forklift, driven through a wall, and then Sanchez
Side Characters and Relationships
01:19:20
Speaker
as well. It's a horrific way. He gets like covered in gasoline and then Bond sets him on fire. And he just burns alive. Have I missed anybody? Oh, and then the guy gets his head exploded in the pressure cap. How did I forget that one? I was just waiting for you to say, I was like, did you forget?
01:19:38
Speaker
I don't know how but I did briefly forget that the guy gets his head exploded. I have to admit one of the other things like this is a very minor point but one of the things I really enjoyed was so at the end you know he's covered in gasoline and Sanchez gets lit in fire by Bond but one of the things I actually didn't notice was when he's at the wedding with his friend Felix he gets given like a special lighter that has like a inscription on it and
01:20:04
Speaker
at the wedding like he goes to flick it on but the flame like spikes up you know like but i actually never noticed that the first time i watched it i remember he got it but i didn't remember that and it played really well because even if it was a normal lighter like imagine how close it would have to be come on you're like clicking it going
01:20:28
Speaker
The wind as well just instantly blows out. But as with that it's like it's a huge flame that comes out of it and yeah it blows them to pieces essentially. But it sets them on fire and then he falls into the or beside the tanker that just like blows up entirely. As an aside can I ask you a question? Why would you design a lighter that made that big of a flame?
01:20:50
Speaker
Apart from setting on fire a Colombian drug lord, what other possible reuse does that lighter have? It's like not going to burn your whole cigarette before you even touch it. It'll be ashes in your hand before. And it'll singe your hair and your eyebrows as well. Why else would you devise a lighter like that?
01:21:11
Speaker
Yeah, well, let me put a counter-question to you. Have you ever been to a birthday party with loads of candles on top of the cake? No, I see. No, neither have I, but that's the only justification. The only thing I can think of is it's either faulty or... I mean, I don't know much about lighters, because of course I don't smoke myself, but... Is that a joke one? No, it would have the electric shock thing, would it not?
01:21:41
Speaker
It's like, you know, a practical joke, you stand your hair on fire and they're like, ha ha, we pranked you. They got you. Oh god, imagine that though, like at the very end as he's about to light him on fire, you know, and then the wife and him come out, like the tanker, like, surprise, it's a joke. It's like, oh my god, what have you done? You did this all for me. Oh man.
01:22:04
Speaker
Moving swiftly on. Well, we can't finish off without talking about the side characters. I mean, as I was saying before, I do think the side characters in Licence the Cow, they were alright. I thought General Pushkin, for all he was in, he did a good job. Although I don't know if you would technically count him as an antagonist, maybe?
01:22:33
Speaker
It's kind of like Robbie Coltrane's character in The Brosnan. You think he might be a bad guy, but he actually turns out to be a good guy. Well, morally ambiguous. I'm just trying to think. Of course you've got Q in both films who does a great job.
01:22:55
Speaker
They have a great relationship. Q and Dalton's bond, I think, is the best of that relationship. Especially in License to Kill, they really like... I think that's maybe Q's best film. Definitely. The way they bond in that film, I think, is really... It's actually really touching and it's actually really good. They have some great fun with it as well.
01:23:14
Speaker
because it also shows how much Q cares for Bond. I can't remember if he did it on his own volition or it was Moneypenny that sends him but basically he takes an excuse or he pretends that the reason he's there is always just taking a holiday or he's got a break.
01:23:34
Speaker
So he says, oh, I'll just visit you and see how you're getting on. And you know, it's like, I mean, that was interesting. I remember I was like watching a video on Licensing Kill and there was quite an interesting comment that someone left in one of the videos and they basically said that whenever Bon, like no matter what iteration, whenever Bon designed Q's lab, he basically scolds him, you know, like a teacher in a pupil kind of dynamic. It's like, oh, don't you touch that, you know?
01:24:03
Speaker
Oh don't be silly Bond whereas there's a scene in License to Kill where it's like he turned round to Q when he's pretended to be chauffeur for the casino and he turned round and he says you know oh you would have made one hell of a field agent or something like that kind of level of respect he's not you know criticising them or anything I think that's nice I do think that's a nice touch
01:24:28
Speaker
I saw it described as a father and son relationship. I think it's actually very close to that. It gives it a new dimension, as you say, and actually makes it quite touching. And you're like, oh, you know, it's nice to see. Yeah, I mean, he is very concerned and caring for him. Yeah. Like, going as far as to use his time off to come, to go all the way to, you know, drug lords holiday home. Or not holiday home, but the country. And, you know, give him his
01:24:57
Speaker
you know, giving me his like gadgets and things, which I think is quite neat. It's a nice touch. Dressed up as an old Spanish man. Exactly. That's such a good scene. But he dresses up as an old, yeah, like an old Spanish man with a fake mustache or sombrero. And then he's got like a, like a radio inside, inside of his broom. And then as soon as he uses it, he just tosses it away. And it's like, oh my God, why would you create that? It's a nice touch.
Evolution of Bond Girls
01:25:26
Speaker
Such a nice touch.
01:25:26
Speaker
and of course we can't you know finish without talking about the ladies of both films which I have to admit they are very refreshing like I do think it's nice to see that they're actually competent at like being able to you know like stand up because that was that is like something that's always brought up you know whenever Bond comes up it's like talking about how you know
01:25:51
Speaker
Bond girls were essentially just like eye candy for the old films or you know like with Roger Moore it's like even if you know like they were a doctor or a scientist or whatever they would always be like the prize as it were to you know oh it's the prize to win at the end and
01:26:09
Speaker
you know obviously probably reflections of the times of films like that not very good in today's day and age you know but like i felt as if they gave these actresses kind of a bit more respect with the characters like yeah they were able to kind of stand up for themselves and you know it's like even when like Cara's getting i think there's one scene where the Mujahideen like attack the Soviet base in the living daylights and
01:26:37
Speaker
They tell her to stick back because obviously she doesn't have a gun or anything and this Soviet agent tries to, you know, grab her. And I was thinking back to a film like Octopussy where if I think in that one, like one of the women gets grabbed and kidnapped and she's like
01:26:53
Speaker
Oh, James! Y'know. Yelling after him. Whereas she just kicks him in the face and rides off. And it's like, oh my god. She's kicking ass. And, I mean, she flies the plane. Don't get me wrong, she has her moments where she's kind of like...
01:27:09
Speaker
like when she nearly flies into a mountain and you're like, literally there's a scene where they get rid of the bad guy and they throw him out of a plane and then he goes back to the cockpit and then she's just about to ram into a mountain that's like, why was that scene needed? She wasn't fighting, the cockpit wasn't in danger.
01:27:32
Speaker
yeah just like small things like that but overall like i think the living daylights was good and of course as well with license to kell we've got a she has a cia agent isn't she yeah yeah and she manages like to hold her own and she does her own investigating and things like that like she's not just sitting around which is quite nice and i don't know i i think it's like what do you think about it
01:27:56
Speaker
I can't be ramble with you or something. No, no, no, no, no. No, I think you made really good points there. I've said before, I really like, in the living day lives, I really like the James Bond, Kara, arc. I think it's not perfect by the Churchill Foundation. I think for a Bond film, it's really good. And I think their relationships allow to develop. And actually, it feels more organic and real than any of the sort of maybe any of the relationships that come before.
01:28:23
Speaker
in the Bond films. With License to Kill, I like aspects of Pam Bouvier's character, like the CIA agent, because I think she is shown to be quite capable and resourceful and can defend herself and everything. And she has quite funny as well with some fun lines.
01:28:40
Speaker
my problem with it is I think they then they then force in this kind of like love triangle into it where it's Bond it's Pam and then it's the and then it's Sanchez's quote unquote girlfriend lover you know whatever term for yeah
01:28:58
Speaker
and then it it doesn't it doesn't tote like i think parts of it are interesting but i think the problem is it kind of undercuts her character because it almost becomes she becomes like quite hoppy like why won't he pay attention to me you know and it's like it's a bit like kind of undercuts some of her character and it's it's a shame and i think it does do a little bit of damage to her character and i don't it doesn't feel totally organic as well i think this is something that the criticism that people level at the Dalton films is that the Rome
01:29:27
Speaker
He doesn't, when it came to the romantic side of it, it wasn't the natural fit for his bond in the way that it was the natural fit for Moore, Connery, Brosnan, most of the others. But that was part of the way that I think Dalton was playing the character. I don't think the romantic stuff was as suited to his character, but I don't think, to me, it's not really a detriment to the character. It might be for some other people.
01:29:50
Speaker
But so I think this love triangle just doesn't really like, it's not like a deal breaker. It's not something that I'm like, oh, I really, it's not like that. It's not the ninja scene. I'll say that, but you know, it's something that I'm like, it undercuts some of the work, some of the good points they make on Pambu based characters. That's sort of my feelings on the thing.
01:30:07
Speaker
Because I brought this up with you just before we went live, but one of the things I really didn't like about Lupe's character, you know, Sanchez's lover and so on, all of the above. Again, I'm not an actor. I, you know, like I've never been like an actor in a big like James Bond, you know, blockbuster or anything, but...
01:30:27
Speaker
I think her acting gets worse as the film goes on. I don't know what it is, maybe it's just like the lines, maybe it's just I don't know what it is but it's just that something about it where like that scene you were talking about she goes to she basically goes to Pam to beg her
01:30:47
Speaker
to like help out Bond and again you're right she goes all huffy saying oh why would you pay attention and you know like it is weird because she's like saying things like oh you know oh I love him you must save her uh save him and the thing that like confuses me is there's only a couple of scenes that they've been together the first one was he basically covered her mouth and put a knife jar through it you know that was an introduction
01:31:12
Speaker
So yeah, great start there. Then they're in the casino and she's trying to like warn them off and you know say, you know, oh you should just get a plane out of here and he's like very aggressive saying you know, no I'm gonna do this. Then they meet in the villa and obviously I suppose you could twist it and say you know it's like James is like her way out of that bad situation. So I suppose I can get it in that sense but I see what you mean about the triangle. The triangle is a bit unnecessary in terms of like
01:31:44
Speaker
It's a bit of a weird one. I agree with you on that one. I'm just trying to think of any other characters though that we've missed. The one that I quite like in The Living Daylights is I quite like Saunders, like the other British agent.
01:32:01
Speaker
they actually have they have quite i think him and bond actually have quite a good like again it's quite brief there's not much screen time developed but i think what time is developed i think actually builds quite a quite a good like i quite like the chemistry they have between the two so so on there's this quite like prim and proper and like oh by the book you know and his regulations about bond this is just like
01:32:21
Speaker
world weary like you know like last drag of a cigarette like guy you know who's just like flying by the seat of his pants all the time just boiling cauldron and they play off each other quite well and they actually have some good but there's like so there's a lot of where Bond is basically like tea
01:32:36
Speaker
like Saunders and like showing them up and stuff but there is like a genuine like respect there and you can see it in one bit you know where Bond actually just like gives him actually some genuine thanks and it builds a relationship and then actually to me maybe it's just I don't know if you feel the same way but to me it actually builds up that when Saunders is killed off he's killed off like by imposing henchmen whose name we can't remember
01:32:58
Speaker
But he's killed by the milkman. And for me, I actually built a bit I was like, oh, like, I felt more for the lot, the death of Saunders than I did for like, what other side characters in these Bond films I don't think are that well developed. Yeah. So I quite like what they did there. And I like I like Doctor Love or whatever his name is in
01:33:19
Speaker
in a license to kill like the televangelist because it's kind of funny I just realized bless your heart I honestly thought that subplot was so weird I've got nothing against it but it's like it's just such a weird subplot so kind of just to quickly explain like there's this subplot and license to kill where basically Sanchez is like laundering his money through like this televangelist cult like it doesn't probably pay off does it
01:33:50
Speaker
No, it really doesn't.
Unusual Subplots and Americanization?
01:33:52
Speaker
For all the screen time they put to it, you could have easily cut that all of that out. I mean, don't get me wrong, this character is funny. This character is pretty good. But yeah, I do agree. It's just like a really weird side kind of subplot. I don't get it, but you know. It adds a bit of memorability, I suppose.
01:34:16
Speaker
But going back to Saunders, I think it's really good in the sense that it shows a good contrast between Bond and, as you said, you know, Bond's like the world-weary, you know, do his job and then go home and not think twice about it whereas the other one
01:34:34
Speaker
The Saunders story is very by the books. We make this joke quite a lot whenever we stream games together. We always say, he's a menace, he's a rogue agent, but he's the best damn fan we've got. Just slamming his fist on the table and everything. But that is almost what Bond is and the living daylights.
01:34:57
Speaker
Well, maybe not to an extreme extent, but he is, you know, that he'll do anything to kind of achieve his goal. But at the same time, he knows enough to kind of drain it in.
01:35:12
Speaker
It is quite interesting seeing them both, like, have mutual respect for one another. You know, it's like the ball ends up respecting him in the end and vice versa. And it is, it's a shame, like, how he ends up going out of the film, you know, by getting crushed by a mechanical door. And it's like... Oh, God, yes.
01:35:31
Speaker
That's actually quite brutal as well. You don't see it, but you can see the blood and stuff around it. That, for a PG film, is quite a heavy-hitting scene. I think, other than obviously that, in the Deadpool 4 scene.
01:35:46
Speaker
I think it's a lot more implied with the violence, whereas in License to Kill you see close-ups of people getting mauled by sharks, heads exploding, getting ground into angel dust, let's just say. It really brutal ends. I think that it's a strength to the living daylights that still keeps it as a Bond villain, whereas License to Kill
01:36:11
Speaker
I don't know, I've actually got a question for you. Do you think that Bond, or not Bond, but License to Kill is more Americanised than a lot of the other Bond films?
01:36:21
Speaker
I think, yeah. Yeah, no, I do think so. I think it resembles much more maybe what you could say, quote unquote, like Hollywood fiction movie, a lot of it. I think it has a bit more complexity than some do, but like it definitely resembles a lot more that kind of like the way it's structured and its themes. It's much more that like the air than it is, you know, maybe the kind of classic like British spy. I think that's maybe underlined by the fact that I don't think Bond is in the UK at any point during, I know there's like a scene in London,
01:36:50
Speaker
but I don't, Bond's don't think it's in the UK at any point during that film. He's always, you know, he's always in the America or like the Caribbean or, you know, around that kind of area. So yeah. No, fair point. So kind of summing up like, in one word, or not one word, but in a couple of words, how would you describe like the Dalton era as a whole?
Dalton's Legacy: Ahead of its Time?
01:37:13
Speaker
I think it was a sign of what was to come, but also like too far ahead of its time in the way that it didn't, it clearly didn't resonate. Specialized to go didn't resonate at the time. But if you look at where the Bond franchise is now, to me it's clearly like these two films paved the way for that. I totally agree with that.
01:37:34
Speaker
it's like trying to get over. I mean I suppose it's the same with shows like Doctor Who and things like that where you get a different actor and whoever's like you know running the show whether it be the director of the film or whatever you know and they all put their spin on it and
01:37:51
Speaker
audiences aren't gonna pick up, like, right away. I mean, look at Sean Connery, like, and how much backlash George Lazenby got. I am, like, kind of often a mini tangent, but was he not the guy who did the milk tray adverts? I think he might have been. The only reason I remember that is, so there used to be this advert, like, long before our time, and I'm just pointing that out, we are nowhere near that age.
01:38:18
Speaker
were world-weary men but were not that old. But yeah, there used to be these adverts like decades ago for just basically Capiti's chocolate, wasn't it? It was like milk tree or something and it used to be an advert where a guy broke into a woman's like bedroom, left her chocolates and then like escaped James Bond style and then the tagline was like, oh because the lady loves milk tree, which so you know honestly, bit creepy but you know.
01:38:46
Speaker
A different time, all of that. That's a whole separate thing. And that kind of like, that set him up for being bond, which is a very kind of, kind of very weird thing to consider.
01:38:56
Speaker
I mean the the story that some of the stories about how George Laysen be like blags his way into being Bond are actually fascinating and maybe you save those for another if we do more podcasts I'll save those but they are genuinely really funny and you're like damn the balls on the guy you gotta admire it. Yeah but definitely we need to do one on Her Majesty's Secret Service because it's both a fascinating film and just a fascinating time capsule in general. Yeah.
01:39:21
Speaker
Yeah, it'll be fun to actually look into that again. Yeah, sorry, real and backend.
01:39:28
Speaker
reeling back into Timothy Dalton. Like yeah, I do agree that he was definitely ahead of his time because there was a lot of people who, you know, I think criticized. Like as I said, I didn't watch this film until about six, seven years ago maybe, when I was still in university. And, you know, I was blown away by how good the loving daylights were in Licence of Kill because this is going to be a controversial opinion but I feel as if a lot of the older James Bond's
01:39:54
Speaker
or a hit or miss like there's a lot of them that just drag on for far too long there's a lot of them that just you like come on come on get to the plot you know it's like just it's not like i think it's just the time the films were made if you know what i mean it's like it's not you know
01:40:13
Speaker
It's not compared to like how films are kind of made nowadays, but as I feel as if the living delights and lices to kill like hit that soft spot or just the right spot of you know it's fast paced enough to keep you interested but it's got all these small details that make it a bit more intriguing. Whereas obviously you know the some of the older ones you're kind of like just a bit kind of plodding and slow which is why I was really surprised when I first watched them and I really enjoyed it. I thought they were great.
01:40:43
Speaker
and by far Timothy Dalton is one of my favourite bonds because of that but I think you think the same but I genuinely think it's a damn shame that he wasn't brought back for another film yeah because there was another film that apparently they wrote the script for and
01:40:59
Speaker
According to this is according to IMDB, so it could be wrong I don't know but apparently it was meant to be set in Scotland and Supposed to be something to do with like nano technology. It wasn't even to do with them.
The Unmade Third Dalton Film
01:41:14
Speaker
I'm actually gonna look up the name
01:41:16
Speaker
of it quickly but it was definitely supposed to be yeah it was supposed to be like his you know kind of swan song i suppose yeah up until i think it was the reason i think he didn't come back was because they said it was like too long a period to wait for bond to come back i think he had i think he had sort of run i think he had kind of been ground down a bit with how long the process was and i think he kind of got sick of
01:41:42
Speaker
of waiting because i think as well i read something again this might not be true but i read something that like they they obviously wanted to bring him back this one film but they then wanted him to do more they wanted to do like another three or four and he just was not willing to commit to that longer i think he would have maybe done it if it had been one like if it had just been a one-off one he probably would have done it but i think it was they they they weren't gonna let him just do that he was gonna have to do like another three and he was just i think he was just over it by that point and he wanted to move on and do other things it was such a long gap
01:42:10
Speaker
You know between license to kill and then this new one be made I think it just yeah It's just interest phase in it and you know I gotta give him as much as I'd love to have seen and I'm with you I think it's a crying shame. There wasn't a third one No, I think I think I said this to you But I'm convinced that if there had been one or two more Dalton films I think Dalton would be wouldn't be such like a nice choice to say Dalton's my favorite bond, you know and but I gotta give him credit like, you know, he didn't want to do it and I give I give Sean Connery and Daniel Craig some some like
01:42:40
Speaker
shit for, you know, for doing Bond films when they clearly weren't interested in doing it. So I've got to give respect to Tim Dalton for just stepping away when he didn't want to do it. I think it definitely, like, as I said, as much as we would have liked to have seen him in other films, I think it's better that he walked away on a strong note. Like, maybe not at the time. Maybe people thought, oh, it's too violent.
01:43:03
Speaker
You know, because License of Kill is, from what I know, and I could be wrong on this as well, but I'm sure it was like the least successful Bond film, or one of the many. Probably because it was like too dark, too violent, you know, which
01:43:18
Speaker
It is weird because I can't believe that the director thought that was the tone they were going for and they still added ninjas. I'm still trying to comprehend that but you know, it is what it is. But yeah, I do think that it's definitely an underrated, I would definitely say it's underrated. It's getting a lot more love these days and I think especially with, and this is another old Chatsunami topic as well,
01:43:46
Speaker
but I do think, especially with Daniel Craig, that is the guy I'm thinking of. His name went out my mind for just a brief second, but yeah, Daniel Craig, I think he is probably reviving that interest of the darker bond. He's got his flaws, he does. Again, that's a whole, like, separate issue, but yeah, it's good to see that he's getting a bit of love, Timothy Dalton, I mean. It's good to see that he's getting a bit more love for his stint as bond.
01:44:15
Speaker
And yeah, it's.
01:44:17
Speaker
Definitely two films that, if you guys haven't seen it to everyone who's listening, go check them out. But I would warn you that if you're a bit squeamish to violence, yeah. Be wary of License to Kill. The Living Day Lights is basically your typical violence for a Bond film. You're not punching, shooting, that kind of thing. But yeah, License to Kill gets a bit intense at times, so if you're gonna watch it, be careful. But other than that, I would wholeheartedly recommend them.
01:44:45
Speaker
Yeah. I would say watch The Living Daylights. And if you like what Dalton did and you're intrigued by his bond, like the film and you want some more, then go check out License to Kill. I think if you watch The Living Daylights and you just don't like the direction it's going for and stuff, then it's probably not worth investing time with. But at least give one of them a try. I'd say at least give one of them a try. If you like Bond, give one of them a try, especially if you like the Craig ones and you haven't seen these Dalton ones. Go back and watch them.
01:45:14
Speaker
No, I won't go into that rabbit hole. I was gonna ask what you think, like, compared to, like, the Piers Brosnan era, because that is actually quite an interesting thing. Like, before we wrap up, one of the things that I have heard about, like, the Piers Brosnan films was that when they got to, not License to Kill, what was it? What was his final one?
01:45:34
Speaker
Oh, Die Another Day. Die Another Day, yeah. There were so many, like, die films. Yeah, that was a time. Yeah, it was like half of the films had the one die in it. But yeah, in Die Another Day, I think in an interview he said he wanted to bring Bond to, you know, like a gritty and semi-realistic
01:45:57
Speaker
Oh, you know, and that's kind of how they begin. Like he gets caught by, I think it's North Koreans or something, and he gets tortured and everything, and then like two seconds later it's back to normal, you know, and it's like, okay. Whereas, it seems as if at least with Doton's films, at least there's kind of cause and effect.
01:46:18
Speaker
you know like his friend gets mutilated so he like gets really angry and he's always on age and everything or you know in the living day lights like he's kind of weary about certain things like and this as we said as soon as his son does his guilty he like ends up running after you know the guy with his gun out
01:46:38
Speaker
just curling a gun on a mum or a mum and child. Exactly. They just run away. The poor Austrian mother and child combo just run away. It's like, oh my god, is it? But yeah, I think it's really well done. And if you haven't checked out Timothy Dalton, but you like the other Bond films,
01:46:54
Speaker
Yeah, I would wholeheartedly recommend it and I'm assuming you would be the same. Yep, I concur. It's a very good set of albums, I have
Community Engagement and Outro
01:47:05
Speaker
to say. So yeah, if you want to follow me in any other places, you can follow me on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and of course Twitch under the name Satsanami42. We also have a Discord server where we will probably be talking about this in more detail. There'll be more in a bit.
01:47:24
Speaker
Oh yeah, well they'll definitely be. Now a very deep discussion about like things were probably missed. So yeah if you want to check us out there then please feel free but until then thank you all so so much for dropping by. Stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly as always stay hydrated and we'll see you next week. Bye guys. Bye.