Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
The Significance of Bioshock 2 || Bioshock Month
48 Plays5 days ago
After an ominous invite to the depths of PodPack City, Satsunami dives deep into the world of Bioshock. Featuring guest co-hosts from Casting Views, RoboticBattleToaster, Howdy Beans and Game Club Pod, this is one month that you will want to submerge yourself in. So grab a podcast Plasmid and listen to us somewhere beyond the sea!
In this episode, Satsunami is joined by RoboticBattleToaster to discuss Bioshock 2! Set ten years after the first game, does this sequel bring something new to the table? What do the duo think of Sofia Lamb's collectivist ideology? And what would Andrew Ryan think of Zoom calls? All of this and more in our latest episode of Bioshock Month!
Check out RoboticBattleToaster here!
This podcast is a member of the PodPack Collective, an indie podcasting group dedicated to spreading positivity within the podcast community. For further information, please follow the link: https://linktr.ee/podpackcollective
Where to find us:
Check out all of our content here!
Support Us:
Patrons:
Super Pandalorian Tier:
- Battle Toaster
- Sonia
- Ghostie
- Cryptic1991
Red Panda Tier:
- Greenshield95
- Danny Brown
- Aaron Huggett
Free Members:
- Middle-aged Bodcast
- IRIDYSCENZIA
- Rob Harvey
- Aaron (Super Pod Saga)
- Billy Strachan
Use my special link zen.ai/chatsunami and use chatsunami to save 30% off your first three months of Zencastr professional. #madeonzencastr
Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr
Stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated!
Recommended
Transcript
Satsu's Ocean Adventure
00:00:02
Speaker
Okay, Satsu, don't panic. You're stuck at the bottom of the ocean in a crumbling city that's about to sink at any moment. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Wait a minute, what's that noise?
00:00:15
Speaker
Oh my god, it's a monster! An unspeakable creature here to destroy my microphone and all that I hold dear! It's a- Wait a second, is that a toaster in the diving suit? Greetings, Satsu! Nice night for a walk, isn't it? What in the heck are you doing down in the pod pack city? Well, god forbid a toaster has hobbies!
00:00:34
Speaker
I mean, yeah, that's fair. Anyway, that's not the point. The whole city is about to crumble into the abyss. They're retaining the reputation it once had. and At this rate, there won't be another one after this. I feel like there's a metaphor in there for something, but I can't quite place my finger on it. Look, the main thing is, we get out of here in one piece. Yeah, just as long as we avoid the crazy religious cultists, jazz singers, and sinister moth people in diving suits.
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah, that's fair. Especially the sinister what now?
Introduction to Bioshock Month with Robotic Battle Toaster
00:01:09
Speaker
Welcome to Bioshock month. Hello everybody and welcome to the second episode of Bioshock Month. My name's Satsunami and joining me within the, well, quite rustic setting of Podpack City is none other than the one and only fantastic streamer himself. It is Robotic Battle Toaster.
00:01:30
Speaker
Toaster, welcome back. Apologies for the mess. but Thank you very much. It's a good to be back. Although I will say, yeah I think you're going to run out of wet floor signs at this rate. Got a mop anywhere? Because I think that biosphere is having a bit of a leak. Yeah, I think Dan took the last of them when he abandoned me last week. You know, I'm not bitter. I swear, I'm working through it. Breathing exercises, hitting signs everywhere everywhere I go. Great stress relief. But yeah, no, as I look for a mop, how are you doing today?
Reflecting on the Bioshock Series
00:01:59
Speaker
I'm doing grand, thank you very much. Got a nice mug of tea and yeah, looking forward to diving into the lore of Bioshock 2.
00:02:06
Speaker
too Yeah, and what an episode this is going to be because last week Dan and I talked extensively about all things are Rapture, all things Bioshock. We even compared Rapture to Crypto Bros. That was a very weird tangent, but trust me, listen to last week's episode and you'll understand where I was going with that. But yeah, today we are flashing three years forward all the way from 2007. God, I feel old because yes, we did grow up in the 2000s and even the 90s as well. So we were living through the prime of gaming when this came out. And yeah, three years later from the iconic Bioshock in 2007, we got
Bioshock 2: Big Daddy Experience
00:02:49
Speaker
the sequel. Now, out of curiosity, before we dive in, because we have a lot to talk about with this one, what is your experience with the franchise as a whole? Well, firstly, I think we're going to need to make some sort of counter for how many nautical or diving-related puns that we say. i imagine it's going to be dinging quite a bit. But yeah, no, I have played Bioshock 1 2 to completion. The only game I haven't completed is Infinite, and that's because the amount of technical issues I kept having at one level. But I loved the atmosphere that they made for the game. It felt so claustrophobic. And like on the main menu, when the pristine Bioshock symbol slowly starts to decay and rust.
00:03:30
Speaker
Such a nice detail. Honestly, it's not often I praise a game for its art direction, but oh my god, this game totally deserves it more. It is just such a, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, it's just so beautiful looking and the way that they make it feel so dilapidated and everything, and it makes you feel like you're actually there within the walls of
Why Did Bioshock 2 Falter?
00:03:54
Speaker
Rapture. And of course, they decide to thrust you back into that dilapidated world in Bioshock 2, which, say when you played the first game, did you say you played the sequel when it came out? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I played Bioshock 1 to completion. Absolutely loved what they did with the ending. And yeah, then as soon as Bioshock 2 came out, which as you say was three years later, course jumped on that because, I mean, you got the chance to play as a big daddy. Those absolutely nightmarish, horrible abominations that you had to fight in the first game armed with plasmids and little shooters and whatever weapons you can strage together. And they've got a giant drill and the ability to absolutely wreck face. Of course I wanted to play as one.
00:04:35
Speaker
Because i have to say, from what I remember, i don't actually think this game was as well received when it came out. By no means was it a bad game. I think everyone was hyped and very curious about, as you said, playing a big daddy, which if anyone out there is listening and they've played the first game, you'll know how utterly horrific they are to fight this big lumbering hulk.
00:04:59
Speaker
inside of a diving suit you just hear the low groan and you're like oh dear my time has come it's time to meet my maker so of course think people were curious and as far as i remember and correct me if wrong here but i think this was the first bioshock game well i think it's the only one of the series to be fair that ken levine wasn't directly involved in it was 2k madden that took over this one correct it's quite interesting to see because there's a bit trepidation, isn't there, that when you have such a successful game that I think a lot of people can go as far to say, oh, it's a piece of art in the game and sphere, that when they take over and they say, okay, we're writing our own story, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, you're like, oh, I don't know how this is going to go. But see, at the time, you think people were overly critical of this game, just in the general sense? I mean, I know that it did receive a lot of critical praise. It didn't get as much as Bioshock 1. I remember that much. It was sort of, I guess that is the issue with making sequels to games is you have got to somehow match the expectations of the first game, hit all the same notes so it feels like it's a continuation of the story, but...
00:06:12
Speaker
have it different enough so it doesn't feel like people are just doing the same thing over and over again. And of course, depending on the type of fans that you have, that's going to be either very easy or very difficult. I think it sold more than, i think it was like 3 million copies or so back in 2010, which is that not bad. now is That is a fair number. That's the kind of numbers I dream of, of people downloading this episode. You know what mean?
00:06:35
Speaker
It's like, three million? Don't mind if I do, come on. But if I had a CEO of Chatsunami, they'd be like, no, no, no, we want those numbers up to six million. but Yeah, put a zero behind that, and then you'll be happy. Yeah, and that's when you and I will build our...
00:06:50
Speaker
underwater civilization just off the coast of the uk i'm sure nothing will go wrong with that can i have mine on the surface and just say it's underwater what you want to commute or work from home actually yeah can i have a just like a bathysphere put me on a lake somewhere yeah oh put me in the lake district yeah i'll be like your um inland branch of compact city i'm just thinking of atlantis having an embassy and just its just being like hello I mean, it could work. It could work. But I tell you one thing, if anybody would hate working from home, it would definitely be Andrew Ryan. Yeah. The parasite says, no, you will get back into your office and work. No, says the man in Zoom. your Trousers are for the working man.
00:07:35
Speaker
but have some very harsh criticisms. What I'm saying is, thank God he didn't live long enough to see Lockdown. I mean, brutal end, but still. but Oh, yeah, he he really has to up his golf game, though. Yeah, true, true. It was a hole in one. In fact, no, was a hole in several. But anyway, listen to last week's review to get that very subtle joke. Would you kindly get your facts right? Very true. Would you kindly take yourself off mute?
00:08:00
Speaker
Is a worker not entitled to his morning commute? You know, we might never know. Anyway, sorry, before I make more working from home jokes based on Andrew Ryan, I want to see that sitcom. But anyway, sorry, that's a side note.
00:08:13
Speaker
Andrew Ryan enters politics. Ayn Rand, who's that?
00:08:18
Speaker
Anyway, back to
The Pitch for Bioshock 2
00:08:19
Speaker
Bioshock 2. Apologies. So yeah, it was quite interesting to read that Ken Levine wasn't as involved in this one because think he was working on something else and then he ended up moving to Bioshock Infinite, which was quite interesting. thing in itself but that is of course next week's episode trust me we have a chunky episode for you on the horizon but what was quite interesting and I don't know if you came across this in your research but I came across a quote from I think it was one of the lead developers and this is something that completely blindsided me it was someone who worked on the original game and then he got recruited to head the project for Bioshock 2 one of his pitches, I was actually, in a way I was curious, but I'm kind of sad we never got this version of the game.
00:09:05
Speaker
The quote reads as follows, they say, My original pitch was that you'd play a former little sister in an underpowered return to rapture, full of fertile trauma that would be uncovered as you went. Very Silent Hill. But I was told, I don't even remember by who, it could have just been Marketing Person x We think Bioshock can be a big shooter franchise like Gears of War or Call of Duty. And I thought, good lord, why did you hire me? Yeah.
00:09:33
Speaker
On the one hand, it would have been completely different. It would have been a total departure from what we ended up getting. But I can see why. I'm not saying they're right, but I can see, given the state of the gaming landscape, why they went in that direction. Yeah, I think they were trying to just ride the wave. But if they tried to make it into a fast paced first person shooter, I think that would have completely ruined the feel of the game. You're a big daddy. You are not supposed to be able to sprint, slide across floors. You are a guy who's, if you notice this, his hands, he's got an extra knuckle on his fingers, which I find very bizarre. yeah
00:10:11
Speaker
Yeah, when when he does the thing with the plasmids and everything and he opens his hand and flexes it, he's got an extra knuckle along his fingers. So his hands, they're extended. His fingers are elongated. it's just like, ugh. But the setting of Bioshock does not make me think fast-paced, wall-running, rooty-tooty, looty-shooty. It makes me think it's dark. You're entering effectively a graveyard of a city. yeah It was a dream. It was an ambition. And it has gone completely to hell. Doesn't scream...
00:10:38
Speaker
Soap, where are you? Or Captain Price or anything else like that. Personally, i would have liked to have done the return as a little sister because I think that would have been interesting. I'm not sure how they would have worked it in to the plot, but they could have done it based off the first game. But that would have relied on the player having the good ending because, of course, in the bad ending, you harvest the little sisters and then take Rapture for yourself. In the good ending, you free the little sisters. So I think it was like too dependent on how you first played it. Yeah, no, that's totally true. i think that it would have been fascinating to see it play out, but I don't know. It's an interesting one because it would have definitely been a completely different game, especially if they went the more Silent Hill, Resident Evil kind of route where you're fighting for your life and... Again, it would have been cool. It would have been, especially if they had a big daddy or a particular type of big daddy be like a pyramid head. Especially if it was like, you how the modern big daddies, they don't have the same issues as the deltas or the alphas. It would have been really cool if the little sister returned back to Bioshock and found her old big daddy. That would have been an interesting sort of, oh, crumbs.
00:11:47
Speaker
What do we do now? can. kind of reminds me, and I'm not going to spoil it, but it reminds me of a particular DLC in Bioshock Infinite where they do something around Rapture, that's all I'm going to say, and you have to play as a character who is severely underpowered, so the game encourages you to be quite sneaky. Their version of Plasmids, I think called vigors where it's like you drink them and again it's exactly the same thing just a different name different brand you know pr nightmare it's things like you have to turn invisible when you have to kind sneak around and try and avoid big daddies and things like that because you are not powerful enough to take them head on and i feel as if something like that could have worked maybe because there's a lot of really tense moments in that where it was like jesus christ i am not built for this I'm gonna die. But maybe something like that, that could have worked. But yeah, in 2010, I think it would have gone a completely different direction for sure. i don't think it would have been in the same lines as what they thought many years later when Bioshock Infinite came out, I think. they would have still been struggling to envision it and try and marry it up with the gameplay elements because remember this is the first Bioshock game that had online multiplayer and it's not the first type of game to do this because was it not Dead Space 2 that did that they had an online multiplayer as well at the time I honestly don't remember. Because so I know that Dead Space 3 had multiplayer.
00:13:20
Speaker
I can't remember if 2 did. think it had a shooter
Combat Mechanics and Big Daddy Thrills
00:13:23
Speaker
one. I'm sure it was that. Because if you think back to 2010, that was the era of, oh, online gaming. And you had your CODs and you had your Gears of War and things like that. And your Halo as well, of course. which again, I'm not justifying these companies saying, oh, it has to be a big dumb shooter, but I can see why in a business perspective, they thought, right, let's make it a shooter. Personally, though, I don't think that Bioshock works as, mean, it's a good shooter, it's a fun shooter, but I don't think it works primarily as that. Yeah, I like the upgrade mechanic behind the weapons. I liked that was nifty. And the fact that you had to, if you wanted to get the best out that weapon, you had to spend three of those stations to get it there. From the first game, you see a big daddy, you have to really weigh up the odds as to whether or not going to tackle that thing. You have to make sure, okay, right, I've got my plasmids, I've got my health at max, got lots of ammunition, let's go. Whereas in Bioshock 2, you feel like you're the size of the big daddy, but you're as squishy as the character from the first game. which it doesn't go well with the first person shooter element because the amount of times that I've been like, I'd get in a firefight with a couple of splicers and then next thing I know, it's like I've gone through two or three of my first aid kits. And this is with a lot of upgrades to my health pool and the armor upgrade that reduces incoming damage. It's like, what? is going on here yeah that is definitely one of the things that i was shocked at when i first played this because i saying this to you before we started recording tonight that when i played this i thought okay i'm just gonna play an easy mode i'm gonna have an easy time i'm a big bulky big daddy that'll be fine And then I found out very quickly that I was getting swarmed by all of these splicers. I was getting the Robocop experience. I was just getting basically brutalised in every single level. I was like, how am I not more tanky? And away you are by like, I don't know, a millimetre of health or something. like a tiny amount but that's it there's definitely moments of this game where you think they do this great they do that great but then other moments you're like oh they could have maybe put that in the oven for a wee bit longer and thought it out yeah it got to the point where the first time i got the shotgun i thought oh yeah, you know, the doom music started kicking in. It's like, yeah, I've got a double barrel shotgun. I'm going to teach you splicers to fear the big daddy. Run up to a guy with a shotgun, fire, and he's left on like a quarter health. And then he fires back and I'm left on half health. And it's like, oh God, this didn't go as planned. Even when I got the shotgun upgraded to maximum. So you've got six shots per reload. It's, I think the second one is that it's focused. So does more damage. And the third one is that occasionally adds a Tesla effect. Even then, the shotgun was the weapon I went to as a weapon of last resort. I primarily stuck with the rivet gun because I upgraded that bad boy to maximum and the ability to just fire a cheeky rivet at an enemy, set them on fire and hide behind cover giggling whilst they run around trying to wonder who shot them. Yeah, real mischievous. It's just the thought of a big daddy hiding behind a bin like, hee hee hee. It's like the next episode of Dennis and Menace, he's got his little slingshot there and he's just like, hee hee hee hee. Gnasher sitting on his shoulder.
00:16:40
Speaker
yeah No, was going to say. See, without any further ado, though, because i feel as if we've got a lot to sink our teeth into for this episode, I cannot wait to get into this. Are you ready to ding, dive in, and talk about the good, the bad, and the slightly bizarre of Bioshock 2? If you mean by the sort of Cthulian-esque horrors that the Splice's faces are, then yes, absolutely. And of course, on that note, we will be right back after these audio logs.
00:17:09
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami, a variety of podcasts that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and general interests. Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises. Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime.
00:17:34
Speaker
So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all good podcast apps.
00:17:45
Speaker
As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated. Greetings! My name is RoboticBattletoaster. You can find me over on Twitch and Discord. More social media platforms to follow. I play a wide variety of both multiplayer and single-player games on PC. You can even pick what games I play over on my Discord channel. My channel is a place to chill out, nerd out over video games, and have some fun back-and-forth banter. I hope to see you there!
00:18:10
Speaker
Now, without any further ado, back to Chatsunami. Ta-da! You know, I swear to God, those audio logs get longer and longer every episode. Oh, sorry, we're back. So, welcome to the Circus of Values. Apologies. No, that's right. I couldn't remember the theme of that. was like, do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do, and I'm like, that's not the theme that's just a Circus theme. Get it together, Satsu. Come back when you've got more money, buddy. you that's Ken Levine? What? Yeah, the voice of the clowns, Ken Levine. You're kidding. Holy hell. It's something i don't think I brought up last week, but yeah, Ken Levine. Ken Levine?
00:18:46
Speaker
That's twice you've blown my brain today with voice actors in Bioshock. Yes, because
Behind the Voices of Bioshock
00:18:51
Speaker
before we... started recording we decided to look at the cast list because I'm going to be honest in Bioshock, Bioshock 2, even Bioshock Infinite, the voice actors, absolutely fantastic. But Toaster didn't know and I completely forgot about it slash forgot to mention it last week that Armin Shimmerman who also plays Quark from the Star Trek series Deep Space Nine also plays Andrew Ryan so cannot believe it. I mean what was it you said about a Ferengi? A Ferengi. Person who hates capitalism is being played by a Ferengi. The rules of acquisition do not support this action.
00:19:27
Speaker
Yeah, please Google that if you don't understand what we're talking about. It's the biggest oxymoron ever and we love it. He's such a good voice actor and a good actor to boot, so that's a huge Armin Shimmerman shout-out of the episode. Come to Rapture, Rapture's fun. Come to Rapture, don't walk. Run!
00:19:46
Speaker
can actually imagine i can imagine andrew ryan dancing to that like yes i am great aren't i atlas just fuming in the corner anyway bioshock 2 so let's talk about the story first because this is the meatiest part i feel because we definitely have a lot to talk about with the gameplay with the characters let's get the story out the way so bioshock 2 started in a way that i genuinely did not expect You're literally just put into the boots of a big daddy right in the get-go.
Bioshock 2's Dark Opening Scene
00:20:18
Speaker
You're walking through this very opulent party. i want to say it's 1958, where it's literally like a year or so before Rapture Falls, and has it has its kids say, never-date, it's big meantie bee under the sea. You're walking through halls with your little sister, and then you turn the wrong corner, and your little sister gets attacked.
00:20:38
Speaker
So you start fighting them off and then, and quite possibly one of the most disturbing moments, as we talked about last week, one of the main power-ups that you get is something called plasmids, which allows you to use certain elemental power. So you can shoot lightning at your hands, you can shoot fire, you can use telekinesis. It's like really cool. You've even got wind. Honestly, you're basically the avatar underwater. You've got bees. Don't forget the bees.
00:21:04
Speaker
Don't forget the bees, yeah. In the words of the iconic Nicolas Cage, nothing. the bees they're in my eyes anyway i can't pass up that opportunity mock nickel's cage anyway so you've got them but one of them that i always forget about when i talk about these games is the hypnosis one so in the first game It was power-up that if you throw it at a big daddy or... think you can use it on the splicers, but I'm not 100%. But definitely the big daddies, you throw it at them, they basically follow you, they become trapped under your spell and whatnot, which makes it easier for you to ofmice and mend them, take them out the back or yell at them, insert any allegory here. but
00:21:44
Speaker
But when you get it done to you in the beginning... it's not so nice, is it No, I felt so bad. I had to put down the controller. I didn't even start the game. This is the opening cutscene, by the way. You get it done to you. and I was like, oh my god, is this what I've been doing to big daddies all this time? I felt terrible. I was genuinely like, oh my god. Basically, you get confronted by the antagonist of this game, Sophia Lam, who is the resident psycho. We'll come on to her soon, don't you worry. And she basically hypnotises you and says, GG, now shoot yourself. in the head and of course you've got no choice she forces you to take a gun and shoot yourself in the head in front of your little sister exactly yeah that is horrific because she's like that's not your daughter it's my daughter kill yourself and it's like oh my god oh my god what is this game and then eventually you get revived and honestly It's like, it's a really, I know I've gone into detail there, but it's such a visceral opening, isn't it? It is. It's the way they sort of portray the power of the Big Daddy straight away. You're walking along, you hear the little sister scream, and your Big Daddy just runs over to a balcony, sees these guys grabbing her and trying to pull her away and trying to surround her, and she screams, and your Big Daddy just leaps over the balcony, nails one guy to the floor with his drill,
00:23:03
Speaker
Clubs the... He takes out like three guys in unarmed combat. Well, say unarmed combat. He's got a drill for an arm. So, yeah. And then gets taken out by a cheap, dirty trick of, oh, yeah, take your helmet off. Here's a handgun. Yeah, shoot yourself. I love the way it sets it up and then goes 10 years later and then you respawn. And it's like, wow, what the hell just happened?
00:23:26
Speaker
You wake up in the, think it's the Vita chamber, their excuse for, oh, this is how you revive in this world. old And it's like, yeah, can just suspend my disbelief and respond. You don't have to say I'm the same person coming back. But yeah, you come back with a Starbucks in your hand. You're like, what's the news? It's 1958. No, it's sleeping for 10 years. Oh, okay. It's 1968. Things look shit. That crack in the window didn't always used to be there. Did half of Rapture always look flooded? Why am I seeing bubbles going out the window? That's not good.
00:23:59
Speaker
They turned the little sisters against us. I miss them. I just want them back, etc. blue butterflies everywhere for some reason yeah that was weird we will get on to that but that was weird uh-huh as you said when you go through there's a kind of almost paradox isn't there that everything that looks familiar in the sense of oh yeah there's the cracked windows and the flooded city and dead bodies but at the same time there is something slightly off about it you know it's like going into your house and someone's moved something just to the side and you're like okay something step in here something feels off and not in the oh yeah the horrors of rapture because obviously you would be terrified if you were in rapture but something feels off and as you said when you get in and you start talking to dr tannenbaum who is the resident creator of the little sisters i have to say i was surprised because i thought she got out in the first game
00:24:52
Speaker
Apparently, that is the whole premise of this game, and this is assuming that you got the good ending in Bioshock, that once you get out of Rapture with the Little Sisters and everything's hunky-dory, only, hold on a second, no it isn't, because someone's kidnapping small girls and bringing them down to Rapture again to recreate Little Sisters. Of course, Tenenbaum ends up going back down, being like, hold on, how dare you steal my idea? Actually, no, she wants to save them. I just want to point that out just now. I don't want to be like, she's like, how dare they copy me and violate my copyright? Plagiarism. How dare they? I can draw the line of experimentation.
00:25:29
Speaker
But copyright infringement. Ooh, boy. Where's my bathysphere? So, yeah, she plunges down and she does try to rescue them and tells you that Rapture is a completely different place ever since it got taken over by the absolutely lovely and delightful Sophia Lam, who is an utter psycho. Did we play the same game? Just the descriptors you use, the absolutely lovely. Yes, I say that with such facetiousness.
00:25:55
Speaker
but but The absolutely, totally nothing wrong with her. She just likes butterflies and she wants everyone in Rapture to be a big happy family. mean, what's wrong with that except utterly everything? She is such a fascinating character, and I was a little bit nervous going into the second one because I have to say, after playing the first game, and obviously nothing well compared to the first game, the first game is so iconic. Yeah.
00:26:27
Speaker
and the football sphere of the individual with objectivism that man was driven by essentially free but selfish goals you know it was all about the individual needs over the collective it was this idea of a laiszfae market and whatno Yeah, you are defined by your own objectives, your own failures, your own successes. That is all you. Whereas Sophia Lam decides to go for the more cult approach.
00:26:55
Speaker
Uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah, there's not much I can say about it. Protect the Lam. Yeah, protect the Lam. Here's some nice imagery of a butterfly to distract you from the fact that she is utterly insane. Yeah, she talks about the idea of Rapture being family, she literally calls it the family, that people almost have this religious indoctrination towards her. And, you know, you can honestly pluck any cult from history and apply it to Sophia Lam because she uses very similar tactics, doesn't she? Oh god, yes. I mean, she started gaining power back when Andrew Ryan was still alive because I believe that she was brought down to rapture because people were starting to suffer. They missed being on the surface. They missed sunlight. They missed being able to go outdoors. And Andrew Ryan didn't believe in stress or depression or mental illness. He just thought it's weakness however if dr lamb can appease the people or appease the masses and allow them to keep working then that's a necessary evil but then of course she started growing her power base she started helping people and she started actually openly challenging andrew ryan with some of his points yeah in hindsight it was a pretty poor decision on his part wasn't it Oh, the entire rapture thing was doomed to fail from the start because funny enough, the point we talked about earlier, it's all about objects and individualism. So you take all these people that are looking out for themselves only and you put them in a city at the bottom of the ocean where it's basically like a completely caustic environment where if you make one mistake, that person's going to take advantage of it and you're going to suffer because of it. And the amount of sort of backstabbing that goes on, i mean, you can even hear it in some of the audio logs that you find later on in the game. Yeah, you've literally got a priest later on that preaches about this idea of, yeah, we're going to work for the family and everything, and you have to be all in on this, you have to be on board. Come on, guys, don't make me look weird in front of Sophia Lam. There are so many people, even the good characters in this, are indoctrinated by her. You've got Grace Holloway, who you meet later on, who is a former singer, and if my memory serves me, off screen of course, but we find out that she hates us because she blames us for taking Eleanor away and being possessive over her, because obviously that's what Big Daddy is. A Big Daddy is created to protect the Little Sisters, and in turn we end up breaking her jaw, which affects the way she can sing, and she's brought up in this very poor area of rapture, but she has this almost fanaticism. about wanting to try and bring you down. It's something that we will talk about later, the idea that you can save certain characters to affect the ending, but, you know, if you save her, she's not your best friend or anything, but at the same time she's like, okay, I can still accept that while I'm a fan of... Sophia Laham, I also don't think as badly of you as I used to, so thumbs up, don't worry, I'll help you out here, there and everywhere. So even the good characters in this are, well, maybe except for one, of course, being Sinclair, who, what I found funny was, you know how Sinclair is supposed to be the voice in your ear that guides you through this version of Rapture?
00:30:15
Speaker
And he's got an almost southern drawl, which I found quite funny because apparently in the first Bioshock game, Atlas had a southern drawl. And yeah, apparently so. But then when people were playing the test version of it, the beta, they were like, oh, this guy's creepy. He's very untrustworthy. And that's why they changed his voice to an Irishman. a fake Irishman as well because he drops that accent as quick as he can at the end.
00:30:42
Speaker
Oh yeah, 100%. But they changed it to Irish because they thought, oh, he sounds more trustworthy like that rather than speaking like a cowboy. But this guy, they immediately gave him, maybe it's not a southern drawl, but you know that kind of type i yeah and And I thought that was quite interesting that it almost subconsciously makes you think, especially after the first game that, all right, when's he going to bit betray us? What's he going to do? You're just expecting it.
00:31:09
Speaker
But that moment never comes, which is great. Oh, yeah. Every time he's like, oh, I think you should try this. i think you should I was like analyzing every single sentence. It was like a sort of Noire style thing. I was standing there with my big daddy in a trench coat with a fedora. We're looking at the notes going, he wants me to do this. Now, what part is this going to benefit him? And how is this going to get me killed? h um Well, Rapture's already fallen to hell. So i don't need to worry about that. Okay, maybe he is just trying to...
00:31:36
Speaker
help me which is bizarre someone trying to help a big daddy but it's just weird the whole fact that what you said with grace she does actually i think it was like her first message back to you was like yeah when you walk out the room she goes well you too and you know you leave and then she thinks and she goes a monster doesn't do that you took the key you had every opportunity to kill me but you left A monster doesn't do that. A man does. And then when you're getting ready to leave the area, yeah she goes, I'm going to have to have a talk with Dr. Lam because if she's wrong about you, then what else is she wrong about? Thank you for opening my eyes, stranger. And it's the fact that I wish there was more development with Grace and the fact that We don't know. Well, we know what happens at the end, of course, but we don't know what happens to her throughout the rest of the game. It's just such a sort of criminally underrated point because the entire time leading up to it, it was building up the, oh, yes, this is Grace. She's the soul of Dr. Lam's movement. She's the whole soul behind it. And the reason why she's so protective of Grace.
00:32:40
Speaker
the little sister Eleanor is because she can't have kids herself. That's why she looks after her so strongly, why she has such a reaction to Eleanor going missing and then some point later ah finding her with you. It's just, ah, so, they could have done so much more with the character later on. Yeah, because I feel as if, And obviously, kind of know why they couldn't really do much with her if you did shoot her and, you know, moved on. But yeah, you don't really get much after that. It's kind of like a bookend, isn't it?
00:33:09
Speaker
At the end of that chapter, literally, it's like, oh, right, okay, we've done the Graceland. And then you go to the next bit and you have to fight other people like Stanley Poole. And all right, fought move on. And then the final one, of course, is Gil Alexander. And trust me, I'll definitely be returning to these two particular ones because they are fascinating, both of them. One's a deplorable mess who has no humanity left in his body. And the other one's ge Alexander. Yeah.
00:33:36
Speaker
but All the Bioshock fans out there, you know what I'm talking about. You know. but Yeah, going back to Sophia for a second, because you're right, her whole doctrine, which ironically enough, although she preaches this idea of collectivism against the idea of objectivism, is almost objectivist in its own right. And that's the thing. You can't really have a true collectivist movement like this without having a figure. head you know without having people telling you what you should be doing what you shouldn't be doing but agreeing to the core tenants because as far as i know and please correct me if i'm wrong here there's not really council of the family there's not a group of them it's essentially just sophia lamb saying do this do that you like me so you know it's a valid thing that i'm telling you and all the spicers are like yeah you
00:34:29
Speaker
That's true. It's like, yeah, I helped you back in the day. I was there listening to you. I stood up to Andrew Ryan. He put me in prison. I stand up for you. And yeah, so it's Sophia Lam as the head of the mafia. Then she's got her, well, lieutenants also so underneath her. It's like Grace and the Wales brothers and. Yeah, it's definitely a case of she's at the top of the pyramid structure. and it's so insidious just picking them something you said they are the she helped people win they but at their lowest because it's something that i thought was interesting especially but the first game where you see that fontaine was ah
00:35:06
Speaker
huge advocate for helping the poor people of Rapture, Fontaine's House of the Poor and all of that. Initially you think, oh that's a very altruistic thing to do, it's very charitable, it's very nice, and then you realise, wait a minute, why is someone pouring all of this money into something like this if you're not getting anything out of And the reason he was doing that was to build a reputation and to build himself as a figurehead of this movement. So when the day came that he had to overthrow Andrew Ryan, yeah, he's in the perfect position.
00:35:40
Speaker
And it's exactly the same. i would argue it's actually worse with Sophia Lam. It's a lot more insidious. Yeah, because all these people are voluntarily coming to her to say, I'm feeling terrible, I don't know what to do, I'm poor in this supposed utopia. I mean, if you feel bad in the real world watching all of the 1% go around in their super yachts and whatnot, imagine being isolated from the rest of the world. No opportunities, no communication with the outside world, slowly devolving into a tyrannical system, and then you see your neighbour crawling on the walls with the sickles, you know?
00:36:16
Speaker
That doesn't help either, to be fair. it Must be a Monday. Yeah, just getting the paper like, morning, Jim. How's the kids? Oh, in the orphanage. Wait, uh-oh.
00:36:26
Speaker
I'll tell them tomorrow. Just close the door. Just search the bins for a pint of milk. Oh yeah, here we go. You know, as facetious as I'm being there, that is pretty much life with places like Popper's Drop and just all of these places that are just, they look even worse than the rest of Rapture that's been through a civil war and all of this devastation. And I mean, you know why, but even still, you can definitely see the class difference between them. And one of the things that I found very fascinating was how Sophia was very charitable even before she got arrested.
The Rise of Sophia Lam
00:37:03
Speaker
So she would play poker with a lot of the residents of Rapture, the poorer ones especially, and she would purposely lose so that she had to give her money are away. oh it was better than that she would win money from the other players and then purposely lose to give everyone's pot to that one individual again as you said it's insidious the way that she's inserted herself into this society because on the one hand you might be thinking if you're coming into this new and think well what's wrong with that she is helping a society that has been abandoned and is only interested in capitalism and all and the rights of the individual as opposed to the collective. But at the same time, that is how she got so much favour with the denizens of Rapture, especially later on where she is now essentially a cult figure, she is dictating what people should be doing. And it's gotten to the extent where, as we said before, she has started kidnapping young girls who I don't think are even little sisters to begin with, but that doesn't matter. She's just sending what is known as the Big Sisters up to the surface, which are absolutely terrifying. So for Dr. Lam, I do genuinely believe that when she was first introduced to Rapture, she was a force for good. Yes. Genuinely believed that she had the minds of the people in her best interest. But then, of course, if you're in an environment where these people that you're trying to help are constantly getting worn down, burnt out, trodden down on, and they just unable to do anything about their situation, I think it just bred extreme measures in her, which is why she effectively devolved from clear thinking psychiatrist to
00:38:49
Speaker
I'm going to use this to emotionally manipulate people to throw off the shackles of oppression and turn Rapture into one big family. Essentially the Brady Bunch underwater. I've never seen the Brady Bunch, by the way. but If it was underwater, then I'm assuming that's what it would be like, only with more drill arms. But anyway. Yeah, I suppose you could argue, though, that that is the curse of Rupture. That it is the promise of a utopia. It's the promise of something better for the people. And then all of a sudden, you've got this very corrupting influence that everyone says they can do it better. You know, it's like a YouTube comment section. It's like,
00:39:29
Speaker
Everybody says, no, if I was in charge, I could do it better. So, you know, you've got Andrew Ryan fighting against Fontaine, and you had Sophia Lam, who was locked up, and she wasn't able to do a lot behind bars. But, I mean, thank God she wasn't turned into a big daddy. That would have been the whole thing. but Yeah, at the same time, is just terrible how someone who's coming in as a force for good is just totally corrupted by that. And as I said, that leads on to the whole thing about the big sisters who they get sent to the surface to basically manifest Sophia's machinations, as it were, to bring these children down to infect them and turn them into little sisters so that they can, yeah, just rinse and repeat. No pun intended, but rinse and repeat. apply and demand. Yeah, just ah create the sins that she criticised Andrew Ryan for. She's just completely trying to rebuild Rapture, but in her vision. And I have to say, the Big Sisters are quite possibly one of the most terrifying things I've seen in a Bioshock game. Oh God, yes. They are the compasses
00:40:35
Speaker
complete opposite of a big daddy because they're supposed to be growing up little sisters and unlike big daddies which as you know from the previous game in this game they're slow they're lumbering you can hear them before you see them they are really tough to defeat now big sisters have probably the same armor stats as a big daddy but they're also so much faster they're like a cross between a big daddy and a spider splicer lot the player big daddy but an actual big daddy yeah we are just squishy sponges yeah our diving suit is made of cardboard and duct tape hopes and dreams yeah yeah
00:41:12
Speaker
but They are scary. And the way that they introduce them to the area, it's like you have rescued all the little sisters in the area. The big sister is coming for you. And you hear this shriek and your vision goes red. And regardless of where you are in that area, she will appear and she will hunt you down. And the only way you can escape her is by leaving that area or killing her if you've got the weapons to do so. Because I ended up setting up all the traps in the world and it still doesn't help. I was like, oh God.
00:41:42
Speaker
I'm getting my ass kicked. They are so tough. They're probably the toughest enemy in the game. yeah. They are substantially tougher than the big guys that have got the muscle strength upgrade and the bone density upgrade. Because those guys, you can take them down with fire. But with the big sisters, I found the... I think it was either... Oh, God, I can't remember if it was armor piercing or anti-personnel rounds on the heavy machine gun. That was the way to deal with them. Whilst they're spin kicking their way across the wall faster than Sonic and grabbing the odd splicer to have a convenient protein shake while they just stick their needle into them, drain them of their blood, recharge their health and throw the corpse at you. It's like, good Lord, what is happening? Yeah. There's nothing more I can add to that. I'm just like, yeah.
00:42:25
Speaker
like, she just ripped that guy's neck open with a syringe and now she's back at full health. Oh, no. They're like the demonic ballerinas of the sea.
00:42:36
Speaker
And I don't mean that in a nice way. I really don't. They are...
Big Sisters: New Challenges
00:42:40
Speaker
Honestly, the design for them is absolutely fantastic. As you said, the build-up, because I think the first time you meet one, you come across a little sister, and it's like, oh, cute as a little sister. And then all of a sudden, the big sister just grabs her and runs by you, and you're like, what the...
00:42:55
Speaker
What the fuck was that? It's like, what the hell? You find a big daddy that's dying. You come over to rescue her. And then all of a sudden, big sister comes in. John Cena's you into a corner and runs off. It's like, ow, my hip. What's going on? And when she runs across the big glass wall, smashing it and cracking it as she runs, and it's just like, oh, boy. I know what's going to happen now. And then the entire room just floods with a tidal wave of water.
00:43:22
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Is it bad that I wish there was a game of Bioshock where you're in Rapture, but you're one of the poor schmucks that have to try and repair the place and keep it up and running? Almost like Viscera cleanup Daytail, but you've got to actually fix and repair Rapture. Because when she did that and the entire area filled with water, because I'm an engineer by trade, was just like, oh man, the damage that's going to cause to every single connecting tunnel, concourse, anything that's connected to this room that you've just turned into, well, I would say an underwater swimming pool. But, yeah. I'm just thinking of the poor janitor slash engineer, and he just looks out and he sees them smashing the window, and he's just like, that's it, I quit, I'm out of here. I mean, near the start of the game, you do actually see a big daddy repairing one of the sections of Rapture. He's outside with a rivet gun, and he's like patching up a hole and stopping the water coming in. Of course, it doesn't help the fact that you go into the next corridor and you find that same big daddy dead, and it's like, what the hell happened? here? Is there a xenomorph in the vents? what that That was the quickest off-screen death ever. I mean, that is terrifying because you're kind of conditioned, iron ironically enough, the would you kindly conditioned to fear the big daddies. And this is something I brought up last week with Dan, that back in 2007 when you saw a video game that was more shooter action oriented it was always the big muscly protagonist and they always put a face to the game whereas for bioshock if you look at that and even look at this it's the picture of the big daddy this is what you're walking into good luck enjoy try not to get drilled on the way is absolutely terrifying and they are so iconic So again, it's a about like, and maybe it's just because I've seen the recent Jurassic Park, but have you seen Jurassic Park 3 by any chance? 3 was the one with the Spinosaur. Spinosaur. Yeah. disorder yeah did da did did did da did did da did did da That's That's my foot. Oh, no. they just look up and it's just standing there staring at them like, hi. He's using my minute. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's a cross between that and, you know, Worf from Star Trek, where basically, and the reason I brought up Jurassic Park 3 was in that there's a particular scene where they have the T-Rex, and the T-Rex in the first two films, where they're the iconic dinosaur, you know, they're the, oh, shit hits the fan whenever you see them. And it's a bit like Worf as well in Star Trek, where it's like, he's the muscle and everything, and you nobody can defeat him. Yeah, bum, bum, bum. I'm getting there, I'm getting there. I'm getting there. Ex to doubt. Ex to doubt. but la but Hold on, hold on. Don't shove me at the back the show yet, please. In the third Jurassic Park, you have the, as we said, the Spinosaurus that snaps the T-Rex neck and immediately establishes the Spinosaurus as the next big threat. And as I said, it's kind of similar to Star Trek, but the only difference is they use the trope so much that they make Worf look really weak.
00:46:24
Speaker
So, it's like yeah yeah i don't think it has the same impact but it's that idea here that you have this not villain but more an antagonist that is really bulky keeps killing you and you know his presence is so fierce but then as soon as you see one of them dead that you haven't killed you're like oh this is not good As you said, is there a xenomorph in the vents or what's going on here, guys? Okay, yeah, your use of the word antagonist for the Big Daddy, I don't think they are antagonists.
00:46:54
Speaker
Because if you think about it, you're the foreign element in Rapture. Because in the first game, you, well, I would say spoilers, but you've already listened to them go through Bioshock 1. So yeah, you blew up a plane to get to Rapture. So you're the outside influence. So if anything, they're just part of the ecosystem. Yeah. Oh, actually, blowing up plane, that goes nicely onto the first time you're walking outside of Rapture when underwater. There's one particular section where you go between some ribs of a creature. If you look up above the ribs on a section of cliff that's above you, you can actually see the tailplane assembly of that plane that your character brought down however many years ago in the first Bioshock game. Oh, that's cool. I made a point of making notes of that when was like,
00:47:38
Speaker
Ah, cool. Alt-Tab. Open up Word. It's like getting the camera ready. Neat. I'm in danger. Yeah, okay, maybe antagonist is the wrong word, because you're right, they are serving their purpose. I feel as if they, and again, this could be a whole episode in itself, but the Big Daddies are probably the most tragic figures. Oh, God, yes. Because, again, this is spoilers for later, but you find out that, ironically enough when you said the foreign element, that you find out later on that you were a normal guy, a deep sea diver, you're going down, and then you're like, huh, that city wasn't there but before?
Stanley Poole and Johnny Topside's Transformation
00:48:13
Speaker
What's going on? So you dive down. you end up getting into Rapture, you get this nickname Johnny Topside, and everyone's like, oh look at this guy from the surface, he's so cool. And then, of course, Andrew Ryan's like, nah, don't trust him. He's a spy for the parasite. Yep, so he locks you up and everything. And then, again, i actually watched a video on someone talking about Bioshock 2, and they brought up the very interesting point of who's fault
00:48:39
Speaker
is up because the reason you find out is you meet a very detestable man called stanley pool now he is vile he is disgusting basically he was a spy employed by andrew ryan who goes to see sophia lamb he infiltrates her network and essentially gets it arrested and he tries to use up all her money instead of going to the poor he there throws all these lavish parts feeds for people.
00:49:05
Speaker
And of all people, God bless her, Eleanor finds out, but she's only a little girl. So he says, yep, I'm sorry, I can't have you spoiling my plan here. So he ships her off to the little sister orphanage where she gets turned into a little sister. Sophia Lam's locked up so she can't do anything about it. It's absolutely horrific. But then that's the reason why you get bonded to her. But he is one of the reasons that you get turned into a big daddy. So the you might think when the time comes to pull the trigger that, oh, he deserves it and everything, but in and that video, it actually got me thinking that, although he's an utterly deplorable human being, is it his fault? Because, i mean, he was the one that wrote the paper calling you Johnny Topside and everything. Ultimately, it was Andrew Ryan that said, oh, I don't trust them and everything.
00:49:51
Speaker
But then if you think about the wider society under there that encouraged them to turn people into big daddies, and eventually you get turned into Subject Delta, maybe that explains why you're so squishy, but even still, I don't like it.
00:50:07
Speaker
There's the Alpha series that's before you. They're the ones that if they lose their little sister, they either fall into a coma or they go on to a murderous, unstoppable, homicidal frenzy, which is why they're used as, well, shock troops later on. But I think you are still ah very much a prototype, which is why, as you said, compared to the other Big Daddies, you are a lot more squishier. Again, I don't like it, but I guess that's why. Yeah.
00:50:32
Speaker
He's saying, yeah. You can make it that. Well, I'm saying when you can make that excuse. I'm not directing that at you, Toaster, being like, I mean, if you want to say it, that's fine. But it's absolutely horrific. But again, this game just gets you thinking about the bigger moral implications. As I said, Stanley Poole is just deplorable and you have every right to just put a bullet in him and walk away. But then you think, Is it the right thing to do? He's the product of the environment because he was in an environment where the only way that you can progress is by growth. And that growth is going to come at a detriment to someone else. So when he gets the person's trust and basically convince them, yeah, I can infiltrate Dr. Lamb's circle and convinces her that it's like, oh yeah, I'm writing papers, but they're being suppressed. And she says that she'll fund his book as he gloats. Little does she know the book's going to be about her. It's like, even at that point, was like, she's offering you a chance to progress, but because it's not enough, you still do that. And then all of a sudden he gained people's trust in her circle, gained her trust. And then so when she was arrested, all of a sudden he had all this power, all these resources at his disposal, and he just went totally drunk with power. And then we had the whole situation with Eleanor. And then of course, we have the situation and later where to cover his tracks at Dionysus Park, he sabotages a water inlet valve, which floods the entire place, killing everyone in there.
00:52:00
Speaker
So, hey, Yeah, he's a product of the environment. I mean, at the same time, the only thing I can think of to justify it is that if you leave him there, there's no way he's getting out on his own. There's only so far a sleazy con man can get on his own against all those splicers and big daddies. And God forbid if he comes across a big sister, he's dead. You know, he he's essentially trapped in there. I don't think the big sisters or the big daddies would pay any attention to him because he's not a threat to anyone.
00:52:28
Speaker
And of course, the splicers wouldn't see him as a threat because the splicers are the ones that are following Sophia Lam. And the only person alive that knows about his betrayal is Sophia Lam. So according to all the splicers, they'll probably think he was someone who survived what happened at Dionysus Park.
00:52:45
Speaker
He'll probably be some sort of hero or i would say martyr, but he's still alive. Out of curiosity, did you kill him when you played through that? No. So spared him. No, same. Because just the way he behaves when Dr. Lamb says, yeah, he's the one who gave you up to Andrew Ryan. He's the reason that you are who you are. And he's the reason why you can know you're a big daddy and you can no longer return to the surface. You can take your revenge. It's like, well, revenge isn't going to do anything.
00:53:10
Speaker
We don't know his backstory. We don't know what he was like before. Like, was he born on rapture if he came down from the surface what's he like on the surface clearly as someone who he lacks self-confidence if the fact that he's able to basically change his mask so frequently to fool dr lamb who's a psychiatrist she's trained to look for things like that yeah i spared him i didn't kill any of the kill or save characters which is actually a great segue into talking about girl alexander the great alexander boy i did not expect that whatsoever There's not a lot that phases me or surprises me in these kind of games, but oh my god, Bioshock keeps delivering that front time and time again, and especially when we finally come across Gil Alexander, because I have to say, getting to him was really, really annoying.
Gil Alexander's Downfall
00:54:01
Speaker
There was a lot of back and forth and trying to get through doors that you could easily have pushed through, and it's like...
00:54:06
Speaker
No, and no, you need the right thing. And it's like, oh, come on. You need this specific plant, never mind the fact that you walked through walls covered with the stuff when you came into the chamber. But nope, you need this specific four blooms. It is very irritating. And again, we'll definitely touch on that in the gameplay. But yeah, what were your thoughts about that with Gil Alexander? Because I feel as if we've both got some very spicy thoughts about this. I find it interesting. It played into some thoughts that I had about Adam and what it is and how it affects people early on. um You've got the people that are taking plasmids, the splicers. So they've clearly, they've been taking Adam and splicers have been referred to as drug addicts. in the game by other people who are not splicers. I think it was, you know, the voice in your head from the train. But what makes them degrade mentally so quickly? Because with Gil, his logs where he talks about, I think it's his personal logs he's recorded, not the ones that are explaining...
00:55:03
Speaker
ah Yes, hello, I'm not me anymore. I'm someone else. But his private logs where he's talked about how he has just had a massive dose of product atom or something. I think he called it product atom or element atom. And he can feel himself slowly being driven insane by it. So It's awesome in the sense of it unlocks the genetic memory of all the people that are there. So all the things they have learned, all the things that they have experienced. So take samples from people who are like, yeah, the best and brightest, put them into one person, bang, you've got a genius. But it makes me wonder...
00:55:37
Speaker
how that information comes across. Is it like, for example, you've got a piece of tracing paper, you've written the letter A on it, you put another piece of tracing paper over the top, you write the letter B on that. And then same thing again with C and D. And then you hold it up to the light and ask someone to tell you what letter they see. Is it something like that where the identities are sort of conflicting each other? Is that why he's been driven absolutely balmy? And what the f*** is with the physical mutation? Why is he a giant slug?
00:56:07
Speaker
That was the moment I was just like, oh, what the hell? I had to put my controller down. I was like, oh, goddammit, Bioshock. When you go out on your excursions outside of Rapture, you can actually see some of the little worm-like creatures that they implant into the little sisters to get the atom. And it's like, he looks nothing like that. I mean, the only similarity is the fact that he has a tail. So is it a case of Aliens Resurrection, that weird alien-human hybrid? Is it like that with him? go...
00:56:37
Speaker
God, very weird. Because they do that very cool slash horrifying sci-fi trope of it's like the monster inside the glass case, but it's filled with liquid and smoke and things like that. So it's like you can't see it fully, but you can see the outline.
00:56:53
Speaker
Actually reminds me of, I don't know if you've ever seen it, the Children of Earth special for Torchwood, the Doctor Who spinoff, where they have an alien race that wants to take a particular percentage ah of kids from Earth and everything. They're absolutely terrifying. And although you get to see them kind of up close eventually before that they keep them in a big glass case and it's filled with this very poisonous gas to humans but for them it's how they breathe and you can't really see them and because of that they are just absolutely terrifying and it's the same here it's like you see this formerly great man who don't get me wrong he still has a great mind but it has completely degraded
00:57:31
Speaker
Because this is the same guy who made the security system for Archer. He made the Alpha series. yeah He made the bonding protocol for Big Daddies and Little Sisters. He made so much, even through shade at Dr. Suchong, which I find quite funny. He's like, yeah, I don't like his methods.
00:57:50
Speaker
It's like my middles are great. That's why they call me Alex the Great. It's like, oh, you're so up yourself. I love it. Yeah, he is a well-established inventor, creator, whatever you want to call him. In Rapture, earned his place up at the table. But again, something that I found interesting was that because he feels guilt over certain elements, that Sophia picks in those insecurities and says, oh, you should do this, you should do that. So by the time he joins the Rapture family, as you said, he's just now a slogan. the jar and you have to try and decide whether or not you can kill him or you can spare him it's just it's absolutely horrific it is that moment where you're sitting there thinking surely the best thing for this guy would be to put him out his misery because with grace you know she's just misguided she's been manipulated by some for stanley you know as we spoke about he is just a product of his own environment gill is just oh my god he has literally become the monster of raptor and i think that's something similar that they expand on in minerva's den when you have to try and find an ai program called the thinker and don't worry but we'll be talking about that in a couple of weeks with the fantastic the galaxy of the game club pod so definitely stay tuned for that but it's just it's a fascinating direction isn't it i it is and it made me think of i think it's called dishonored in the second dishonored game you find that genius who's made lots of clockwork soldiers and lots of really advanced technology for the age yeah where they're still burning whale oil and you get a sort of similar thing there where you can either kill him or render him harmless by reducing his intellect It's a sort of similar choice. I spared Gil just because, yes, the recordings of the past were saying, don't kill me. I don't want you. That's not me anymore.
00:59:41
Speaker
Please kill me. But in his current configuration, iteration, form, he doesn't want to die. So it was almost like, do I accept... the words that are recordings as gospel and ignore the living creature that's in front of me pleading for its life because a recording of it in the past said, oh no, that's not me anymore, kill me. Or do I listen to the actual creature that's alive in front of me and yeah wants to survive? So yeah, I spared it. Yeah, it's such a difficult decision, isn't it? It is.
01:00:12
Speaker
And again, it's so rare for a game to make you feel like that, where you think, oh, yeah, I'm just skipping along, la-de-da. Because even, i think the worst decision that you had to make in the first game was whether or not you wanted to harvest the little sisters or save them, which, again, that returns in this game, where you can choose to harvest them or rescue them and then get more Adam from them. And, yeah, again, there's not really a reason to harvest them, because the amount of Adam that you get on top of that is... kingdom minuscule. I'll be honest, I don't know how much Adam you get by harvesting them, because I haven't harvested a single little sister, even in Bioshock 1.
01:00:50
Speaker
Yeah, me neither. Because that's the discussion we had last week as well, where, as psychotic as this may sound, please bear with me, we felt that the game didn't go far enough with the moral quandary. Because it's one thing to say, oh, are you a monster by harvesting these londres? little sisters but if you don't make the consequences more consequential then it's not really a moral quandary it's just like all right i'm not gonna harvest them if the reward's not as great but yeah feels as if it's a bit heavy-handed that oh are you going to be a monster and it's like well i'm in hell
01:01:25
Speaker
but's like what's one more more I've literally carved my way through like 30 people to get here. They might be levels of insanity, but they're all living, breathing people. And I've just carved through them all. For some reason, they're all talking about exit stage left and everything. It reminds me of my friend Adams. I think critique...
01:01:43
Speaker
is probably the right word of Uncharted, where, you know, in that game, you kill, I don't know, hundreds of unnamed NPC grunts and everything, but when it comes to a named character, it's like, no, I'm not a monster. And you're like, you clearly are.
01:02:00
Speaker
It's like, the mountain of corpses behind you begs to dither. It's that age-old trope, isn't it, of... Yeah. I'm not a monster. Or the Batman. I don't kill people. I just drop them off of really tall buildings. It's like, yeah, that's killing people. It's hard to find a game that handled that black and white divide better than Spec Ops The Line. Oh, yeah. God, can you imagine if they did that in Bioshock?
01:02:25
Speaker
Oh, I'm killing these splicers. Oh, yeah, they're trying to kill me. And just just cuts to just you're in rapture before it went to shit, just shooting people. It's like, oh, oh, oh no. It's not very choice for this. Yeah.
01:02:37
Speaker
but I mean, actually, no, that's perfect. When you play as a little sister at the end and you get to see what things are like from their perspective.
A Little Sister's Perspective
01:02:44
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, no pun intended here, but that is eye opening, isn't it? Uh-huh. It's like, oh my god, what's happened to them to make them think that this is the case? Yeah, as you said, there's a bit the end where you play as a little sister briefly, and they see the world woods as it used to be, you know, pre-Gone-to-Hell Rapture. Everything's golden and opulent, and whenever they see a dead body, they see them quite beautiful-looking with angel wings. What I loved about the angel wings as well, because whenever you see them in the first game, and especially in the second game, they say... look, Mr. Bubbles, it's an angel.
01:03:21
Speaker
and you're like, did you watch It's a Wonderful Life again? Every time a big daddy revs up his drill, angel gets his wings. Literally, but... Let's take this for a spin! Thank you, Clarence!
01:03:35
Speaker
and My favourite movie aside, you see them lying there very peacefully, almost like s Sleeping Beauty-esque. And they've got the, and if I never actually realised that until now, it's like the chalk outline of wings. Yes, it is.
01:03:49
Speaker
Very much like a forensic body. You know, like, you've got the chalk outline. And obviously it's to imply that, oh yeah, they are an angel in the little sister's eyes, but also... indeed And then, you know, when they stab them with the needle to extract the atom, that's when they kind of see the world briefly as what is. Well, I don't know if that's more for the player or for us.
01:04:12
Speaker
I think it's going to be for the player, because I imagine if they had those moments of lucidity every now often, they'd be a lot less... I'm gonna get the light from her belly. It's almost like a sort of we happy few moment, but instead of a downer, it's we have a little sister. How can you tell? She's drinking someone's blood. do you know what i didn't realise with that, actually? I saw a scene where they harvest the atom and then they start drinking out the back. all of it yeah i was like the hell and then when you look closely you can see it's been purposely designed to be you know like a bottle yeah i remember looking at that thinking what the hell drug rats would never reptar would not allow it reptar wouldn't put up with this there's a baby not entitled to his nap time no since the man upstairs etc etc sorry
01:05:03
Speaker
You must drink blood from angels. See, this is why I got fired from my job at Nickelwoodian, but anyway. They just didn't see my version, okay? They didn't see it. The un-aired version of the Rugrats. Come on, guys, we're going on an adventure. Underwater, Tommy? What the hell? Yeah.
01:05:22
Speaker
Anyway, yes, that uncut version of the Rugrats movie aside. yeah yeah Honestly, it's just so juxtaposing, isn't it, that you've got this image of innocence, and I know that's why they have the Little Sisters, because originally, as we spoke about last week, there were supposed to be slugs, and then they were like, what if we have a dog in a wheelchair?
01:05:44
Speaker
but Then they were like, no, that's stupid. Yeah. They went through different iterations for the Gatherer class of NPC, and then obviously they landed on the little sister design. There was supposed to be a little brother design as well, but they scrapped that, I think, for the better. i think that would have a bit too far or too much. But one thing that i thought was interesting is, in that particular sequence you're talking about, you have to get Eleanor's big sister suit. But when the little sister sees it, she sees it as a dress. Yeah. Yeah. golden, very pretty dress. But when you cut back to reality, it's of course the suit. And again, it's just that whole thing about innocence in this totally despicable place. Did you notice that when the little sister looks at your character, she doesn't see you as a person wearing a diving bell suit? You look, you know how like they did the whole with colour theory, like if you use these colours, they're more warmer, they look more positive. yeah Instead of using these more sharper colors, when she looks at you, you see yourself as basically you look like a hero, yeah like a knight.
01:06:46
Speaker
And like I wish you could have gone around and had a look for other big daddies to see how they see them. Because, of course, if they see the rest of the world as some sort of distorted view, how do they see their big daddies? Again, it feels as if it's a bit of a missed opportunity, doesn't it? It does.
01:07:03
Speaker
I suppose, on the other hand, you could argue that, yeah, maybe it would have taken the impact away from that scene if had too much ah of it, but considering the amount of time we spend with Little Sisters, before we talk about the finale and everything, because i feel as if, although we've skirted around it and talked about at the very beginning. Can we just talk about the gameplay and some of the slightly more negative elements of this game?
01:07:27
Speaker
Yeah, sure. And apologies to, again, ding on the punnometer to bring it down. But I feel as if, on the one hand, the gameplay is absolutely fantastic in this game. And I think that's one of the things that the developers wanted to focus on. They wanted to build upon the combat and things of the first game. And thank God you can shoot and throw plasmids at the same time. Because, my God, were you as happy as I was when you could throw lightning and shoot someone?
01:07:53
Speaker
but Oh, yeah. It's just like, I'm just going electrify the water that you're standing in whilst firing a grenade in your general direction. is so satisfying. I was so happy. I was like... So beautiful! be you And you can definitely tell with the layout of these levels that they're a lot more open, aren't they? It's not just narrow corridors, although you do have your narrow corridors still, but you have these open places, and can't remember for the life of me which part of the game it is, but you know where it's, you're almost in this bar slash shopping district.
01:08:24
Speaker
I know the one you're talking about. It's like you can weave into the shops and the bars and things and you can go upstairs. It's before you go to the church because that's the place that she floods trying to kill you. Yeah, floods trying to kill a person in a diving suit. Several times, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
01:08:41
Speaker
They didn't think that through. don't think... its like It's just the Austin Powers of yeah revenge plans. It's like, water. Damn, he's good. yeah All you've done is you've made me have to jump to try and get to the loot that's now floating in that water. I have to admit that did annoy me when you had to go through the water and it's really, really slow.
01:09:00
Speaker
And I know why. That's how walking underwater works. That's how physics works. But was like stomping angrily going, God damn you, Sophia Lamb. This is one thing added to the list of things you pissed me off for. Yeah, it's when they went for the sense of urgency of she's flooding the place. You got to get out of here, kid. You got to go now. And then you get partway around and then the entire place floods. And it's like, why was there the sense of urgency? I'm in a diving suit. Yeah, I can understand that pressure can kill me and everything else in reality. But my suspension of disbelief is somewhere on the surface wondering where I've gone. It's the fact that the urgency stops when you walk out into the parade of shops and the restaurant and the bar and everything, and you're just surrounded. I mean, yeah, when she is flooding the place, you can actually see splicers that are there just on their knees praying.
01:09:47
Speaker
And it's like, are you trying to pray to her to stop? Or are you basically praying to go, it's deliverance. It's rapture for the rapture. Because, know, they floated upwards. All I'll say is those fishermen are going to get a nasty surprise that day. Yeah, it's like, what the hell is this? Daddy, daddy, I've got one. I've got a... yeah Some bubbles float to the surface and then a city's worth of people just pop up. Like, uh, who do we call for this?
01:10:14
Speaker
Daddy, I've got a water rabbit. Wait a minute. but yeah Why does that fish have a sickle? It's like, oh, oh no. It's like, oh, I've got someone. Oh, this is a big one. oh And then they pull it up and it's just a diving helmet. It's like, oh, what the is that? Meanwhile, on the sea floor, some big daddy's like, oh, goddammit, it's coming out of my paycheck.
01:10:34
Speaker
but My uniform. Mr. Ryan's not going to be happy about this one. Shucks. I don't know why he speaks like that, but I just like to think there's a sitcom out there where it's like, oh boy, my first day as a big daddy, better not disappoint. It's like, oh no. For some reason, could just, I don't know why, but I can just picture a big daddy doing like a goofy voice. He's locked his rivet gun or his drill outside in the water and he just goes, gosh, I've got to send you straight to hell. Oh no. Oh lordy. No, goofy, no. Welcome to the family.
01:11:06
Speaker
That would be even more terrifying. Replace the ah big sister sound with Mickey Mouse, yo. It's like, oh God, Mickey's coming. But anyway, yes. Negative points of combat. Why do I have to smash a window?
01:11:18
Speaker
like Oh no! You thought you could escape copyright infringement? Under the sea, under the sea, you're not safe down here. It's just like, you know, is it Sebastian the crab slash lobster? Just tapping the edges of the glass. Just like the suffragettes used to do. Just like, so slowly but surely, with this toffee hammer. I bet you didn't realise you were going to get a history lesson, but... It's like, yes. Just hitting the corners, bam. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding
01:11:47
Speaker
Anyway, if you'd like to hear our full rendition of what we think Rapture should have been for £5 a month on Patreon. No, I'm only kidding. but I mean, there is Patreon, but no, for legal reasons, that's a joke. Jokes aside, I do think the combat was definitely ramped up in all the positive
Weapon Balance and Challenges
01:12:02
Speaker
ways.
01:12:02
Speaker
I just think it's such a shame that, again, as was said countless times, we were so squishy. I feel as if it took away from the impact, and I know it's a balancing thing. You can't be a super mega tank throughout the entire game, and people would go, oh, the game's too easy. And it's like, those are the people that ruin it for the rest of us, but just Take the point. Yeah, I think it was designed for almost arena combat. It felt like they added too much to certain aspects of it. Like the harpoon gun, for example. I used it once the first time I picked it up because a splicer walked around the corner and went peekaboo. I panicked and pin cushioned to the guy to the wall. And that was the only time I used it. Because it was like, why would I use a harpoon gun when I have a gun and a rivet gun and a shotgun? And a grenade launcher. And a machine gun.
01:12:51
Speaker
Why would I use this? Oh yeah, you can lay electric tripwire traps. Oh yeah, like the rivet tripwire traps. Oh no, not like those. You can't pick those back up. Oh, so if I want to go through the area that I've just trapped to stop splicers from spawning, I have to then use some of my conventional ammunition to shoot the traps that I've placed to stop them from hurting me. Yes, and the fact that it's like, I liked the different ammunition types, but it felt like at points there wasn't enough of each type. The amount of times, oh yeah, I've got loads of rivets. Fine, cool, awesome. I have three heavy rivets. Okay, what about shotguns? Oh, you've got 12 or so standard shells. You've got two
Hacking Minigame Improvements
01:13:32
Speaker
phosphorus. And I think if you look in the bottom of your bag of holding, you've maybe got one slug. Okay, cool. Awesome. Yeah, it almost feels like because the overcompensated is too much of a good thing that you almost don't have enough to actually have fun with it. And again, it reminds me of when you have the drill, and I was so excited to use the drill, but I don't know about you did you feel as if you weren't using it as much?
01:13:59
Speaker
See, I did a test when, so at one point in the game, I think
Gameplay Frustrations
01:14:05
Speaker
if you hunt around, you can find this upgrade, or this plasmid upgrade thing, that basically massively upgrades the killing potential of your drill. However, it means that as long as you have this plasmid ability equipped, You cannot use any other weapon, just the drill. I found that I used that for a little bit and then got bored because the amount of things that were like, aha, I'm incredibly far away from you and I'm in it's an elevated position so I can just go and shoot you with this gun. Meanwhile, I'm jumping up and down incredibly angry at them, trying to hit them with this drill. It's like, it just come a little bit closer to the edge just come a little bit closer i used it maybe five or six times and then outside of that or outside of the scripted points where you have to use it for breaking down walls or anything i didn't use it honestly i don't blame you initially i thought oh cool we get to use the drill and everything and then when i first use it on the splicer it felt like that scene from austin pibbers you know when they send the guy down the trap door Yeah. And he just keeps screaming, oh my God, I'm in so much pain because it takes so long to kill anything. And I think eventually, you know, if you upgrade it, that's all fine and good. But at the very start, you're like drilling this splicer who should go out two hits.
01:15:17
Speaker
And you're just standing there like, okay, when's this guy going to die? And they're still shooting you whilst you're doing that. I'm like, I've got lunch at three. Can we wrap this up? but he He's like, oh god, I'm in so much pain. And then when you take it away from them, like, haha, I was just joking. You're like, what's the point of the drill then?
01:15:33
Speaker
It felt a bit disappointing. And again, same with the, as you said, the harpoon gun was useless. There's a couple of other guns that think they introduced in Minerva's Den, but again, the fact that you can't get them in the main game... It is kind of rubbish, but I think it would have probably over bloated.
Emotional Depth in Character Transformations
01:15:50
Speaker
Although, speaking of gameplay mechanics, what were your thoughts on the hacking minigame this time round? I am so glad it wasn't playing Plumber.
01:16:00
Speaker
ah because when I first played Bioshock 1, I was like, okay, I can sort of see the connection. We're an underwater city that's using yeah suspension of disbelief, sci-fi technology. Okay, yeah I can see that. But yeah, moving it to the actual hacking minigame, I really did like that. And I like the fact that if you got it in the blue section as opposed to the green section, it does additional things. If you messed up and it was just like, oh, it's just in the white section, fine. You just get a bit of a shock, but no, problem if you're in the red section or security kicks off and you have a bad time. But yeah, the first thing I would do when I went to an area is I'd hack the cameras, hack the health stations, then hack the shops. Because if you leave a splicer wounded, they'll go to the health station. And if the health station is hacked, it'll kill them. if you hack the cameras, they'll summon helicopter drones, which I don't know if they change something about the helicopter drones between one and two, but in two,
01:16:54
Speaker
My word, they were useless. It's like they make a lot of noise, buzz around like an angry lawnmower, and then shoot vaguely in the direction of where the person is. Maybe, maybe not hitting the wall around them. Count this as a warning.
01:17:06
Speaker
Yeah, this is my 562nd warning shot. The next one will hit. ah This is my 563rd warning shot. Don't let me catch you here again. Yeah.
01:17:17
Speaker
That guy turns around and slips on the brass from all the shell cases. Whoa. but Don't come back.
Moral Choices and Consequences
01:17:23
Speaker
Sorry. I can get... I bet you didn't accept it.
01:17:28
Speaker
Oh, so I forgot to put down the sign. but It's like, oh, caution, wait for... oh God, we need this to be a series now, but anyway. Yeah. The goofy tales of rapture. The goofy... Oh, like it. I like it. Hold your rapturous applause. Oh, stop now. Hey.
01:17:46
Speaker
I would watch it. That's all I'm saying. I would watch it. I'm sure Levine, if you're listening, we've got ideas. At Robotic Battle Toaster, at Chats and AmiPod, you know, and reach out to us. but ah anyway sorry jokes aside the only other negative thing i would bring against this game gameplay wise is oh my god it got repetitive at times i don't know how you felt about this but see the little sister bits where it's like oh you've got three little sisters on this floor and see when that number kept going up and up i was like and i have to and you don't have to you can leave them alone alone but at the same time i was like oh i'm gonna have to do
Sophia Lamb's Manipulative Reign
01:18:23
Speaker
actually if you want the best ending you do have to risk them damn it yeah i had a similar thing when it was like okay cool right yeah when i started playing to refresh myself with information for the podcast for some stupid reason i tried playing it on much harder difficulty because was like yeah i can do this oh yeah it's no problem i can't yeah no yeah i could do this and then i got to dionysus park and i don't know what it was specifically about that level but it kept crashing left right and center And the amount of times I was having to do this one section where I had to save a little sister, take her to this area.
01:18:57
Speaker
And it was a big open area where there were no cover points, no choke points, just in the middle of a T-junction. And the amount of times it was like, okay, do your thing. Wait, everything comes to kill me. Okay, killed them all. Cool, right. are we done? No, you've got to find a second angel. Oh, okay. It reminded me of this game. It's an old game series called Painkiller. Really cool game where basically your character was, yeah you and your partner were killed and the devil takes a soul and basically God says, okay, right, if you go into hell, kill the devil's generals.
01:19:30
Speaker
and I will rescue your partner. And the basic gameplay mechanic was, you go into an area, all the doors shut, waves of creatures come at you, you kill them all, doors open, you proceed. It felt like that for the little sister, apart from the fact that every so often she would scream at the top of her lungs because someone walked over to her because I was busy getting shot at.
01:19:49
Speaker
Yeah, that was so annoying. i ended up, I had to just surround her with traps and I was like, ah, there go all my rivets for the month. It's just like, yeah, because it was annoying how tanky some of the splicers felt. And I'm not talking about the brutes or, you know, the chunkier ones. I'm talking about the ones that were just citizens of Rapture. And forgive me wrong, they're probably zonked out in plasmids and Adam and whatnot. But was just like, oh, for God's sake, just stay down. It was really, really frustrating. It didn't feel like, you know, Doom. I know this is going to sound like weird comparison, but you know Doom where that is a perfect example of the power fantasy games where it's like, although you've obviously got your hard bits in that, you are the threat in that game. You are the one that's progressing forward. You're ripping and tearing your way through the game. Even with something like Halo, for example, again, although there's hard bits in that and we don't talk about legendary mode in it, halo 2 getting sniped from afar you do feel as if you are the super soldier the hero that kind of thing the big bulky person and this it feels as if you're constantly asking for an ibuprofen or a paracetamol for the headache you keep getting every five minutes yeah they feel more tanky than me yeah exactly you're literally in a 1920s flapper dress and you're in a
01:21:07
Speaker
so You're in a three-piece suit with a Phantom of the Opera mask on. I've shot you with an incendiary rivet and you're on fire. Why are you still alive? I don't know, he believed in himself or something. The old anime trope, I don't know. Power of friendship, apparently. I mean, the one moment I have to say i found quite heartbreaking slash clever, and this is something, again, we talked about last week about the idea of environmental storytelling, that this
Ideological Downfalls of Rapture
01:21:32
Speaker
game... i have to say it does build up upon as well, where are there is a guy who says that he dove down to Rapture to try and find... Oh, yes. Yeah. And I genuinely didn't realise this until I was re-watching it and refreshing my mind, and I was like, oh my god, that was... heartbreaking where you come across these audio logs and the guy's like I'm gonna find my daughter and and remember the last time I found an audio log like this in the first game and you literally see a couple who have overdosed in pills because they realized that their child had gotten turned into little sister and they just couldn't take the guilt and the shame of it they just decided to kill themselves it was horrific But then, of course, there's one moment where you fight this big daddy and you have to get the little sister to rinse and repeat and do what you've always done. But it's the only time that you kill a big daddy and it's got a name. And that was heartbreaking when you're looking down at this and going, why has that big daddy got a name? It turns out the little sister was his daughter. So in a kind of bittersweet way, you think, oh, at least they got together.
01:22:37
Speaker
in the end but at the same time it horrific that a father went down to rapture to try and save his daughter got forcibly turned into big daddy bonded with his daughter and then was just condemned to stalk the halls of rapture it's horrific Then it's a case of how much does he remember? How much does he know about her after the process? Because yeah it's like she's not going to know a damn thing about him at all. How much is he going to know about her? Because with the guy who's helping you along the entire mission, what happens to him at the end? Is it something like that for them?
01:23:12
Speaker
And if so, does that mean that every moment that they're walking around escorting their actual daughter, they're sort like not in control, but they are aware. like, that's my daughter, but she doesn't know who I am. That was heartbreaking. Again, between that and, as you said, Sinclair, unfortunately, getting kidnapped. Oh, God. Yeah, and I felt bad as well because I'm like, oh, I called you Atlas
Bittersweet Ending and Moral Reflection
01:23:35
Speaker
2.0. Turns out you're fine. Yeah. But yeah, his death, well not death, but I suppose spiritual death, let's say, is just horrible where he's begging you to put him out his misery because he's been turned into one of these monsters. And it's a bit, kind of spoilers from a nervous den, so skip ahead a couple of seconds, but I'm pretty sure that they come across a cure for big daddies. They manage to turn certain ones back and reverse the effects of Adam, but
01:24:04
Speaker
Again, I'm not going near any of those slicers or big daddies who are stomping the ground. So yeah, he didn't have a chance, unfortunately. It's such a damn shame. And with what was going on with the entire area as well. And the way he was describing it, what was happening. I can hear her in my head. I can't fight it.
01:24:23
Speaker
I remember who I am, but it feels like there are walls growing between me and who I am. It's like he's losing himself whilst fighting this thing. And the fact that when he's actually fighting it and you can see he's fighting it, if you notice his movements are more human as opposed to Big Daddy, he leans on the glass. He's actually really struggling. And so all the other variants of the Alpha class Big Daddy that you met that were running around in a blind rage, just trying to close distance with you so they can murder you. And then it's like, yeah, I have to run. I just have to get away from you. And he runs off with the key. Because ironically enough, it is the pain perfect summary of and maybe it's a bit on the nose but as the perfect summary of what it must feel like to be in a cult that idea or obviously without the diving suit but you don't need a diving suit for a cult unless it's a very very very weird cult in terms of cult standards but that idea of as you said that he feels as if oh she's in my head and everything and that cult concept of isolationism because let's face it if you're in rapture you have been cut off from the outside world by andrew ryan who at that point had turned paranoid and he just didn't want anyone from the outside coming to his quote-unquote perfect utopia and which was absolutely horrific
01:25:39
Speaker
But then of course, as we said before, they got driven into the arms of Sophia Lam, who essentially created this rapture family movement and said, don't worry, you're safe with me, I know what's best for you. And it's that idea of, both literally and figuratively, they are hearing her voice and her doctrine saying, don't worry, I'm here, I know what you need. Even though, does she? Not really. Maybe it started out as good intentions, but I'm going to be honest, the game starts with her in 1958 telling you to shoot yourself in the head. So I'm going to be honest, she's not a very nice lady.
01:26:16
Speaker
I think she did start with good intentions because... Don't forget the part where you're introduced to her as the player character in Bioshock 2. Things are already on the decline because the fact that, of course, we've already had the whole situation where Stanley Poole has killed everyone at Dionysus Park. We've had the part where Eleanor has been abducted and turned into a little sister. So we've already had the moment where we broke. the jazz singer's jaw. We've already had all those events happen, so there's already been a lot of development for her. But one thing I did notice is that as the game progressed, her attitude towards Eleanor became less of she's my daughter, she's the savior of rapture, to you know, she is an asset. She is my asset. I won't let you corrupt her. And the fact that at one point in the ending moments of
01:27:09
Speaker
the finale as it were she's berating your character or the player character effectively giving her humanity so you wanted her to be the savior or the utopian the first utopian of rapture and you wanted her to have no independence no free will and no humanity because she's easy to control if she's just everything for everyone nothing for me so essentially what you're saying is it's the scene where kettle meets pot yeah Yeah, it's like, how dare you try and get back to my daughter? How dare you? I know it's your imperative because of what you've been programmed to do so, but she's not yours anymore. She's mine. She's raptures. And the fact that she keeps referring to her, but doesn't refer to her like a mother would talk to her child. It's like ah someone talking to a prized possession. And that is evident, in my opinion, when she's more than happy to smother her to get to you. Yeah, she's a very toxic mother. And that's underselling it here.
01:28:11
Speaker
She is. I know I've been facetious, or read as I've been facetious about saying, haha, she's not a nice person. But in all seriousness, that is just the cherry on top of the absolutely abominable cake that she has created. And I'm not just saying that because I'm hungry. She is just this utterly vile human being who, again, as you said, starting from, oh I want to help these people to, I know what's best for them.
01:28:39
Speaker
I am the mother of Rapture. I will lead them out. And as you said, I will use my daughter slash asset to create this wonderful new Rapture family to usher in a new age. Say with or without subject Delta, I genuinely don't think It would have lasted, even if Subject Delta wasn't there to stop her. I don't think that the Rapture family would have survived. I think they would have just cannibalised themselves.
01:29:05
Speaker
Not literally, of course. I agree. Again, as I said at the start, the idea of a true collectivist society. i mean, look at something like Star Trek. Apologies, I don't know why I keep referring to Star Trek. I think it's because of Andrew Ryan, but anyway...
01:29:19
Speaker
But the idea in that is it's a utopian society, it's governed by group of people talking about the best interests of, well, in their world, the Federation. In this case, it the Rapture family and Rapture as a whole. The fact that you have one person dictating what they should be doing for the betterment of the collective... And I mean, I suppose you could draw parallels to the real-life events going on at the time with the Cold War, where you had the Soviet Union, who, as we know, are very famous for their collectivist ideology of saying, i mean, you've heard the memes in Soviet Russia, etc., that everything belongs to everyone kind of thing, and the more and more you go into that ideology and philosophy, the more you realise that concessions have to be made for it to work, and in this case it is dictated by the ramblings of this utterly... Again, I was going to say Madwoman, but I think the scariest bit is she's lucid. She is all there. So she kind of knows what she's doing. She's cold-hearted. Yeah, because could maybe slightly argue that towards the end, Andrew Ryan was paranoid. He was going absolutely insane under the pressure. Again, no. unintended of running this society and losing control but with Sophia that is just what makes it so insidious that she knows throughout the entire way what she's doing that she is purposely manipulating these people who were at their lowest points in their life and she doesn't care And again, as you said, that horrific moment where she just smothers Eleanor because she's acting like a child, throwing its toys out the pram that, oh, if I can't have Eleanor, then neither can you. And she does it so that it severs the bond between you and Eleanor as the partner system. It's a horrific scene because there's nothing you can do. You're trapped behind the glass and you're just thumping it and you're watching this girl that you've protected all this time and you've been trying to get to because you can hear her in your mind and everything and she is the reason I don't think we mentioned it but she is the reason why you came back because she harvests some of your Adam and DNA she puts you in the Vita chamber you pop out with the jazz hands going okay let's go Rapture it's 1958 again I know I made that joke but it's still hilarious you have the party hat on and everything I slept through my alarm ah five more minutes I'll be fine laughing What's five more minutes between friends? Yeah, it's just absolutely tragic watching it. And then, of course, that leads on to the finale, where, as we were talking about before, you do the little sister section. And one thing i find actually horrific, this is the moment where you actually see the consequences of your actions throughout the game. So as we spoke about before, with Grace Holloway, with Stanley Poole, and with Gil Alexander, you get the choice whether or not to kill them or spare them. But then also you get the choice whether to harvest the little sisters or spare them as well. And that leads to one of three endings. You know, you've got the good ending, you've got the neutral ending, which is, eh, it's alright.
01:32:27
Speaker
And then you've got the bad ending, which, oh man, we'll get to that. One thing I didn't notice, because I'm exactly like you, Toaster, I have not had the heart to play through and harvest the little sisters, but apparently, say after you complete that section and you give the big sister suit back to Eleanor, do you know she acts differently? in that cutscene. I didn't realise this because I just always assumed you give over the suit and it's like, oh yeah, that's a nice ending. Apparently, if you give her back the suit and you've harvested all the little sisters, what she does is she harvests you. Well, you as the little sister, oh yeah.
01:33:00
Speaker
It is actually horrifying because at that turning point she learns essentially from your actions throughout the game because you're bonded and everything and think she's got a bit of your Adam because they establish that you can carry the memories of someone if you take their Adam I think and they talk about that with Gil Alexander because they pump him full of Adam from all of these amazing creators and things from Rapture and that's again why he's so bloody and insane inside of a tank but Yeah, she sees what you've done throughout Rapture and she's like, oh, well, if my dad says it's okay, go.
01:33:35
Speaker
And then harvests the little sister. And apparently there's a scene where she breaks you out and recovers you. And if you've sacrificed the little sisters, then she'll be a lot more aggressive and quite bloodthirsty. Hashtag blood for the blood god.
01:33:52
Speaker
Huh. Yeah, but if you've, like you and I, you rescued the Little Sisters, then she's a lot more, again, she still helps you and everything, but she's not as bloodthirsty in comparison, which I genuinely never knew until I looked up again. I was watching what other people were saying about it, and they're like, oh, did you know this? And I'm like, what?
01:34:11
Speaker
No. I think the only part I know about her behaviour being different is at the end when Dr. Lam is drowning and if your little sister is evil, she just watches her drown. Well, would you believe there is a way to get the good ending but still let her die? Is it the neutral ending? No, it's like the good ending, the neutral ending, and I think...
01:34:32
Speaker
think the bad ending has two paths so there's a flow chart to say if you rescue so many people and you don't harvest the little sisters or you do harvest them it's really interesting again i never knew that either i was like i am learning so much today Kind of thing. But yeah, it's absolutely crazy the detail that they put into it.
01:34:53
Speaker
But yeah, I was in the same boat that I watched her save Sophia Lam. But yeah, that ending's horrific when you just watch her drown and you're like, oh. I mean, to be fair, she again, she blew up a tunnel to the two people in diving suits. She did more than that. Yeah. Are we going to get to that part, or you want spoil part of it for people? No, go for it. What? You mean the part where she blew up the whole of Rapture? Yeah. So, basically prevent you from escaping with...
01:35:21
Speaker
you from escaping with your little sister from escaping with Eleanor to the surface. At this point, your character, the player character, is dying. It's not something that happens in-game, so it's not like you have a health debuff that slowly goes away or things like that. It's just when you enter an area, your character doubles over, you get a funny visual effect on screen.
01:35:40
Speaker
You carry on um because your connection, like the Alpha Big Daddy's, your connection with your little sister has been severed when she smothered Eleanor to death because basically it's tied to when her heartbeat stops and then of course resuscitated her. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't care about technicalities. She died. So ergo, you die. Whilst you're basically trying to get to this little escape vessel because that's what Sinclair was getting to, she is getting her cult to plant explosive charges on the supports for rapture. And of course, on the tunnels leading to the the escape vehicle. So she happily sacrifices Rapture with all the survivors on there. It doesn't matter if they're like part of the cult or not, or just people who have had too much Adam and are a little bit insane. It doesn't matter. She kills them all to try and stop you and Eleanor escaping. yeah At that point she's gone from, as you say, she's aware of it because if she was insane she would have just killed Eleanor. She would have smothered her and then kept the pillow down, not revived her at all.
01:36:39
Speaker
But she did that as a tactical use to get to you and then revived Eleanor. So she was perfectly aware of what she was doing and she didn't hesitate for a minute. She got spec ops aligned flashbacks and went, oh hell no. And it's a big... It's bittersweet feeling, isn't it? Because I know that particular part of Rapture was designed to be sunk.
01:36:59
Speaker
Is it Persephone, the jail? I think so, yeah. Yeah, it was designed to be blown up and sunk into the depths where it couldn't be recovered whatsoever, which, again, is horrific to think. that you put all the prisoners there just ah sink them all. Because prisoner, of course, is a very loose term in this game.
01:37:17
Speaker
Because, of course, you could just be someone who fell out of political favour. You could just be someone who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yeah, so there are going to be, by I'd say the bell curve of statistics, but yeah we'll call the ballosphere curve of statistics, that there will be some innocent people in there. And it is. It's just horrific. I know that sounds like such a, oh, Satsu is obvious, it's horrific, but it's the fact that, again, going back to this idea that, and this is exactly how cults work in real life, you know, that you've got all of these people who are saying, oh we know what's best for you, and, you know, they're targeting them, and then eventually they lead them into very dangerous as underselling it here they basically kill them but they kill them under the guise of this is what you have to do for the protection of our particular society the one that comes to the mind of course and this one that's been kind of compared to this the cult for jim jones the kool-aid guy even though i think technically it wasn't kool-aid but as a whole episode for another day you've got that you have the the names escaping me but there was the cult in japan as well you know the very infamous one that caused the sarin attacks and that's why you don't have bins anymore in the underground and public places there because they don't want a repeat of it it's such a powerful thing to be able to influence the mind of the vulnerable in the disenfranchised and the fact that she is selling this as this is a last resort but you're doing it for the family it's okay I'll stamp your coffee card on the way out don't you worry it you'll be fine and it does seem almost in a way very religious as well because know the irony of it being called rapture is a place where are the best of the best escape and they I was gonna say rise but technically they sink down into rapture for this better life. And all these poor people have been duped. Well, I wouldn't say duped because I think Andrew Ryan had a vision. He had a vision, he had intentions, but humanity, unfortunately, and again, you don't need us telling you this, for the most part, a lot of people can be very selfish or very driven by their own goals and such that will clash with other people. So to have a society of, ironically enough, individuals with individual thoughts, with individual feelings, it's just going to cause conflict, it's going to cause clashes. So then alternatively you think, well, the flip side of that surely must be that Sophia Lam being this collectivist and oh, it'll be great guys, it'll be swell to work together. it isn't.
01:39:50
Speaker
It's almost, I don't even know if authoritarian collectivism exists as a term, probably does, or something similar, but you know, that idea that she is dictating how these people should live their lives, and it is so true.
01:40:02
Speaker
tragic because at the end of the day, splicers are terrifying and everything, but at the same time... they are people. Yeah, they're people. They had hopes, they had dreams, they had everything ahead of them. And because of the selfish ideology of a few rich people...
01:40:18
Speaker
that they have been plunged, again, no pun intended, but they've been plunged into this world of despair. And then when they got a second chance, their second chance is in the form of someone who would happily take the reins of where Andrew Ryan left off. It would even go as far to kill her own daughter and sink Rapture just for another chance. And it's tragic. It's a story of tragedy, isn't it? yeah These people that came to Rapture, of course, as you say, Andrew Ryan made this and environment for a very specific type of people. Humanity is a massive spectrum and he has made an environment that would benefit one specific mindset. So when they start coming up with ideas of plasmids and things that allow you to be faster, be smarter, be better, be stronger, all of a sudden the people that can afford yet because they've started doing well, can use these to get even further ahead, which means that people who haven't got access to these things all of a sudden can't compete.
01:41:16
Speaker
yeah Effectively, they get priced out of the market, as it were, but across the board. Just to see the degradation that these people have gone through, especially considering, you think about it, they are stuck underwater. The bottom of the ocean. They can't see sunlight. The noises that this place would make every time there's like a creak of pressure shifting, an area heating up non-uniformly, the sounds of just knowing that at any moment if there's sort of a hole breach or just like a pinhole shape-sized hole, you're dead.
01:41:45
Speaker
And then throw onto the fact that everyone who's around you is out for themselves in various degrees. Then you've got Professor Lam arrives and she starts looking at helping people. She comes down with good intentions. And I think there is actually an audio log you can find where she, you know, because you talked about religion. I believe she actually does introduce religion down in Rapture. And that's what makes Andrew Ryan act.
01:42:10
Speaker
That's why he gets her arrested because he tries to have a debate with her. But all that happens with the debate is it fires up her supporters. So that's when he gets her arrested and incarcerated, which of course makes her effectively a martyr. Like, oh, look how they're treating this woman who came down from the surface to help us. It's trying to give us a lifestyle where we look out for each other.
01:42:33
Speaker
And he's incarcerated her, which I think is, you mentioned plays very nicely into the villain from the first Bioshock game. It's... Everyone that's down there is a product of the environment. And funny enough, so are the player characters from both 1 and 2. Very true though. Speaking of religion...
01:42:52
Speaker
It is almost like Divine Intervention, isn't it? By Sophia Lam and the fact she's called Lam. And her whole theme is butterflies, which are reminiscent of the idea of rebirth. And that is exactly what she says in one of the audio logs, that you're metamorphosising into something better to make Rapture better. And that's why you see all the butterflies sprayed across the walls. Where they got the paint, I don't know. i think there's a B&Q down there or something, but you know...
01:43:21
Speaker
and Next to the Goofy store, apparently. But yeah, you've got that imagery and, of course, her literally being called Lamb, a creature of spring and rebirth and everything. And oh, look, it's her leading the way into this new age. So, I mean, the writers are very clever people. You don't have to... me say that realise it, but they are very clever in the way they did this.
01:43:45
Speaker
But it's that idea that she is almost this religious figure, that she is at the top of the chain, that in a place where they are all desperate, she is going to be their saviour, ironically enough from Rapture, because Rapture was supposed to be the saviour, and then when they realised Andrew Ryan wasn't really following through, and as Fontaine slash Atlas put very, very well... you're going to need someone to clean the toilets anyway. You're going to need an underclass to support this. So how can you have a society of equal intellectuals who think for themselves, who do things without any kind of government or authority overreach and whatnot, and not have checks or have an underclass that supports them or serves them or whatnot, and Again, it's the same here, but the only difference is Sophia Lam tries to make it as if she's all about the people. So she makes it look better. What I'm saying is she has a better PR team.
01:44:42
Speaker
She's not the Messiah. She's a very naughty psychiatrist. True, exactly. That just summarises it, doesn't it? ah But that, of course, speaking of that, that brings us on to the finale finale, as it were, where our actions lead to three particular endings, where essentially in all three, and again, this is the biggest spoiler warning you're going to get here, but in all three you still come across the same outcome more or less but with slight variations and I remember at the time this was slightly criticized do you remember the reaction to the ending of this game being I wouldn't say it was overly oh everyone's complaining about it but I thought there was quite a ah minor backlash as it were I don't recall there being a backlash for that. Not as much as there was a backlash for Mass Effect 3. Oh, yeah, no. That's still the king of backlashes, yeah. Yeah, I can't recall there being a massive backlash, but then again, that could just be me. I mean, I think, to be fair, it's probably because back in the 2010s, there was more of a... You know, like, the angry video game nerd and those kind of creators? Aye. It was those kind of over-the-top... oh my god, this is the worst thing ever, and there wasn't really a desire to be objective or to say, well, this didn't work, but that worked, and e etc, etc. Whereas back then it was all, oh, this is the worst thing ever, oh, it's terrible, oh, it killed my childhood, oh, it kidnapped my daughter and took her to rapture. You know, you're like, steady on, it's not that bad. But...
01:46:16
Speaker
i think there's a minor difference because i think the two variations is you either decide to, well I say decide, you either pass away or you give your Adam to Eleanor and you can spiritually live through her and and she absorbs your memories and thoughts and things. But when I say minor difference there's two differences and the good ending think think you pass away peacefully for the neutral ending you have a choice between whether you're gonna pass away peacefully or you just give the adam over and then the bad ending you don't get a choice you just get the adam sucked out of you it's just that's a you don't get a choice and it's very brutal the way they do it because you're just stared at and it's horrible but yeah before i go on what are your thoughts on that ending So the only time I've seen the bad ending is from a YouTube video because I've saved everyone and I've rescued all the little sisters because no one gets left behind. But it's interesting to see how they're not massive changes, but how small changes in like attitude, behavior, feels of the character and how they interact with you at the end can change the entire mood of the scene. In the good ending, when she you know talks to you, basically says it's all going to be okay, and she puts your arms across your chest and extracts your atom, and your vision goes black, and then your vision comes back, and it's you looking at your diving suit from her perspective, and you look peaceful with your arms crossed and everything else, and then she looks up across the horizon at the sun, and the tone shift is real.
01:47:51
Speaker
Yes. I mean, it's better than the bad ending, as you said, where I think they changed the very peaceful and serene sunset from a thunderstorm, and, you know, she gets the Adam out you, she looks in her reflection looking very devious, and then she just looks across the ocean as if, oh, I'm going to kill everyone in there, and you're like, and oh no, oh no. Oh dear, should have been a better dad. So that's the summary of Bioshock 2. Be a better father, otherwise you're going to get splicers and big sisters.
01:48:20
Speaker
That's a lesson of the escape-namoid-looking. But that's the thing, though, about the good ending. And again, something that I think we briefly touched on when we talked about the ending for Bioshock 1, because it's the idea of when each protagonist from 1 and 2 down into Rapture, the only way they are going to come out with the moral high ground is if they embody the best of each ideology. So for example, in terms of collectivism, you could see that in the perspective of when you rescue the little sisters, because you have no reason to save them, you're just trying to survive there. And that is where objectivism comes in, that you're there for a selfish reason. In terms of Jack, it's because you've been brainwashed and now you have to survive. And the second one is because you will literally die if you don't find Eleanor and you're driven by this programming to go through and you do everything you can to survive you know that's a very objective that you're not taking pleasure in it but you're doing it to de defend yourself for your own survival but in terms of collectivism when you look at the little sisters you don't have to save them but if you choose to save them you're not just doing that because you think oh it's the morally right thing to do you are giving these little girls a chance to be happy You're giving them a future, one that, unfortunately, a Rapture would have never given them because Jesus Christ.
01:49:46
Speaker
Sophia Lam would have never given them that future. Andrew Ryan definitely would have never given them that future. But the fact that you have that ability to be the best person, to be, ironically enough, to be the lighthouse of Rapture under there, to show the best of what Rapture could have been, that is the only way that you're going to come out as... the better person whereas if you go through and you follow your selfish desires of saying oh i'm gonna shoot grace i'm gonna shoot stanley i'm gonna shoot gill well the girl one's debatable but you know what i mean yeah you should then because oh they slighted you etc it's quite
01:50:21
Speaker
quite a basic way of thinking about it and it's something that Bioshock 1 and 2 does absolutely beautifully and it does absolutely fantastically that it forces you to think about what you're doing. It forces you to say why am I making this decision? Am I making this decision because the game's telling me to? And ironically enough, it goes back to the first game of a man chooses, a slave obeys. It's not just saying, oh, you're a man, you should choose. It's literally saying to the player, man or woman, no matter what, you have to choose your path. You cannot be dictated by, ironically enough, what the game's telling you. You know, it's telling you to do these things, but should you follow through with it, the decision is yours. And the fact that at the end of the day, and the bitter, bitter irony that Rapture was created as a
01:51:09
Speaker
place of freedom only to then rob people of that freedom and the only people who do get that freedom are the protagonists and the little sisters of course it's just like a beautiful bittersweet ending isn't it yeah you either become a product of rapture or you rise above it the thing that i really like is that you're a big daddy a statistic with sort of like a slight deviation. This happened from my personal experience. When my dad had a motorcycle crash, he was wearing his full leathers and he had a crash helmet. And when he was thrown from his motorbike, lots of people ran over to the other side of the accident, but only one person went over to check on him because, of course, you can't see any facial features. You know it's a person but you don't see them as a person it's a similar thing here with the big daddy they have dehumanized you because yeah you can't see their face they can't speak they can only make this groaning noise they are basically completely alien to you but if you play to better the scenario you are the most human inhuman creature in all of rapture i mean that is actually a perfect point there I remember recently i had started noticing in certain films, and this is something that's been going on for a while, where a game or a television series or a film wants to dehumanise the villains. So for example, the Stormtroopers in Star Wars, or even recently I watched The Hunger Games. And I don't know if you've noticed this. I don't know if you've watched The Hunger Games, sorry, I'm just assuming. I haven't, I'm afraid. No, I've literally just watched them recently.
01:52:42
Speaker
In the first film, they've got these soldiers called Peacekeepers, who are basically the stereotypical soldiers dressed in white, but you can see their faces, and that brings a somewhat human element to them. But as the films go on, and I don't know if this is the same in the book, but they start to put them in helmets. And again, i was really interested by that because I thought clearly what they're trying to do, because you're going to expect that they're going to get blown up and everything, but it's a way to dehumanise them. Whereas the heroes, obviously, they don't have a mask. They are completely, they're on the poster for God's sake. but
01:53:17
Speaker
ah You know, they show them, same with Star Wars and other things, that their faces are clear, you can relate to them as heroes and whatnot. And it's ironic as well, because even though you play as a human character in the first game, you never see his face.
01:53:32
Speaker
And again, it's the same in the second one, that you never see Subject Delta's face, and I suppose for good reason, depending on what they did to him. But at the end of the day, you summarised it perfectly there, the fact that he is considered this almost inhuman monster. Because even look at the introduction, the people cower from him. They recoil in disgust as if, who let this guy in without a tie? But I know, now I want to see a big daddy in a tie, you just like, evening. Yeah.
01:53:59
Speaker
He's just got a magnetic bow tie he clips on his front. Well, I would only let him in if he could spin up. Put it on the end of the drill, yeah. Yeah, what's your credentials? wo Okay, then. Yeah, it' as you said, it's the fact that the Big Daddies are so synonymous with the series because...
01:54:15
Speaker
When you think about where Bioshock Infinite took the series, and again, this is something we'll talk about next week, but the way that Bioshock Infinite took the, oh, let's make Booker the focal point of the cover, whereas in Bioshock 1 and 2, it's Big Daddy in the front, and they have been so synonymous with being the almost mascot of the series that it's really hard to separate the Big Daddy from Bioshock, ironically enough. It's like the little sister being separated from the big daddy. It's like it just doesn't work without it at times. And to have this, as you said, faceless hero have so much emotion put into him. And again, it doesn't have a speaking role, does he? No, same thing for Bioshock 1. Your character it doesn't speak. You are Gordon Freeman of Bioshock. Gordon Freeman of Rapture. You have no voice and you must crowbar.
01:55:04
Speaker
Yeah. but Or wrench. Yeah. ah It's true, though. It's like you... Yeah, it's true. It's amazing how much they managed to achieve with a silent protagonist. And I know in their technicality, Jack does have one line of dialogue or two, like in the very, very beginning. But other than that, you're right, he doesn't speak throughout the entire thing. But it's just beautiful what they achieved.
01:55:27
Speaker
And again, it's such a beautiful game. I could honestly gush about this game for another few to be fair. I'm just really surprised at this game because this is one that I did not expect to enjoy going into. I'd heard mixed things about it. Again, not bad things, but just mixed things that people said, oh, I didn't like this about it, I didn't like that. They'd improve things like the gameplay elements and you also had a built-in GoPro camera where if you recorded yourself using different platforms, plasmids and things that help upgrade them and I thought that was pretty neat compared to the Peter Parker scenario in the first game where you're carrying a camera and you're like, didn't, neat. But I was pleasantly surprised because I thought, oh, this will probably be cash grab from the studio, it's going to be more of the same and don't get me wrong, there's definitely repetitive elements and there's a lot of the same in certain areas but I feel as if for what they have here, It's definitely a worthy sequel and I feel as if it's the perfect end note for Rapture because I don't think they could have made a Bioshock 3 and set it underwater in Rapture again. No. I feel as if they had to end it there. No, I agree because what would you do that hasn't already been done? You've explored the whole thing with Adam and the little sisters and the moral choices behind rescuing or harvesting them twice.
01:56:47
Speaker
You've gone through rapture at various forms of decay and breakdown. The city is basically a mausoleum. The dead walk, but they don't know they're dead yet. You couldn't really do anything in there that wouldn't just feel like it's puppeting or pulling parts from Bioshock 1 or 2.
01:57:06
Speaker
Even if you had it set in the high days before things started going wrong, what would you do there? Because it's already been covered by side text and plot and audio logs in one and two and leaving what happens there to the imagination of the player is better. Because if they try and make it so it's like, oh yeah, no, no, this is what happens. This is the narrative. All of a sudden it's like, oh, well, okay. It's like with horror movies. You don't reveal the monster. You let people's imagination run with it. You can imagine a sort of, you know, Les Miserables, but underwater. When actually it's just like, no, they had a town meeting and Andrew Ryan threw this person in prison. Oh, okay. I don't think they can do another one in Rapture. There's no big bads anymore. Sophia Lam's gone. Andrew Ryan's gone. Atlas is gone. Who's left in power? Maybe, yeah who knows? Maybe Gil. Yeah, ah true. And I mean, even the thinker technically is there in the DLC, but I think you pretty much put that out a commission by the end of it and you escape with Dr. Tenenbaum, which I have to say that is the only minor disappointment I had with the game where you meet her at the very beginning and she's like, oh, save the little sisters. And then she just disappears. Yeah. And I mean, it is cool she is in the DLC, but it's just kind of weird that she appeared and then she just said, I must go. My little sisters need me. Yeah, it was such a crowbarred in appearance because it like the way it happens, this person's trying to break into this barrier. You kill the person.
01:58:29
Speaker
She opens the barrier it's like, oh, it's you. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to rescue the little sisters. And then all of a sudden, Lam is like, oh, Subject Delta's here, we need to get him. And she's like, oh no we're in trouble, we need to go. And it's like, you've just condensed effectively an entire interaction. How did you get back down here?
01:58:45
Speaker
How did you get back into Rapture? Why did you come back? I mean, I know you're trying to rescue the little sisters, but... Was there just a bathysphere waiting for you? Yeah, yeah. Did you get back out to that lighthouse? And, you know, it's like, ding. Oh, yeah, the number two bathysphere to Rapture, please. I mean, you wonder if Sander Cohen's still rocking about down there.
01:59:03
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, if you hadn't killed him in the first game, he's definitely still down there, but yeah, hopefully not. As we mentioned before, Rapture is a place that was always destined to fail. And I know you could argue from a philosophical point or if I was in charge of Rapture, it's like,
01:59:20
Speaker
Nah, you'd still fail. I think any human would fail because to look at something in hindsight and say, oh, we could have done this, we could have done that, it's the most human thing, ironically enough, that you can do to say, alright, let's correct our mistakes by doing X, Y, Z, when the mistakes have already been made. And to have a society that, again, was forged with good intentions... It was never going to work, was it? No, I don't think I'd survive down in Rapture just because I like helping people.
01:59:49
Speaker
I'm selfless to the point of I would stay up stupidly late, making sure that people are right, sitting in chats with them and helping them out. I would get taken advantage of so much in Rapture. It's a society that obviously is built on rewarding people for their ideas and individualism and... If you are going to be selfless, then nine times out of ten, it's because they've got an ulterior motive to back it up. As we said with Fontaine's House for the Poor, it was just to build his clout with Sophia. With Dr. Lamb. Yep, with Dr. Lamb as well. It's to build her clout as well. I think even Sinclair, does he not have something where he works with certain people? absolutely. Sinclair makes and sells plasmids and he'll buy the syringes and the ejectors in for dirt cheap, sell them to someone for a higher price, and then he will buy them back at a really not a great price and then sell them to the supplier. And you can actually find an audio log about this from different people's perspectives. You can find it from Sinclair's where he goes,
02:00:53
Speaker
oh, yeah, this place is great. there All these rubes that are doing this and I've got these guys that are doing this. I sell these for cheap, sell them really expensive, buy it back from them cheap. and then if you go to of the apartments, you can find an audio log of someone going, ah, Sinclair is such a schmuck. I buy these things off of him. Yeah, he prices me a little bit, but I make double the amount I need to. I sell half to this guy for a really high price and sell the rest back to Sinclair for a little bit above board. he's such a rub. This is the easiest job ever.
02:01:23
Speaker
It's like, man, everyone's just shit-talking each other. It's just social cannibalism, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Everybody's just out for themselves. There's no moral fibre. Again, that's the thing, though. It's all fine and good if you think that, oh, you have this world-changing invention or whatever, you're going to advance humanity, you're going to help humanity, but nine times out of ten, it's delusions of grandeur, or in order to get it to a point where it is going to benefit people, they're going have to step over a few people to do it And that is, ironically enough, both our selfishness and selflessness is what makes us human. It's that distinction of deciding when to do something for yourself versus when to do something for the betterment of somebody else. And it's always an internal struggle for everyone going through life, but in the extreme side for people of rapture, you're going to be leaning into the more selfish side. not going lie. You're not going to be thinking, oh, well, I'll give this person my last eve vial. I'm going to give them my last thing of currency so they can go to this. It's a value. You know, they're going to look out for themselves. And that's just self-preservation at the end of the day. And that is just so horrible to think that these people, again, I know I talked a about it before, but they have been reduced to practically animals. Yeah, because they're locked in a contained environment where the only supplies that are there are the supplies that the people who control the ability to make them provide. Yeah. Was it in the first game where you've got the garden and Ryan poisons it? And it's like, that's providing food and oxygen for people down here, and you did it just to spite us? What the f*** is up with you? What is your deal, man? It's like, you need to breathe as well, right? Yeah.
02:03:06
Speaker
A man chooses a slave breathes. That's not how that works, Mr. Ryan. It's like, uh-huh, uh-huh. Your moral crate gives you about an extra two minutes of breathing. Well done, Mr. Ryan. You screwed it up for everybody. No, you're completely right. They're so stupid. But again, yeah, I suppose you could argue that, oh, it's because he was paranoid and everything, but I very much doubt he's got a really long straw going up to the surface. They can just breathe through it.
02:03:31
Speaker
yeah, that'll be fine. It's like, yeah, no. Again, it's a society where they all want to, no offence to them, they want to cut off their noses despite their faces. Are you kidding? Some of the splicers don't even have noses. Did you see the inspiration behind the splicers, actually? They looked like deep ones from Lovecraftian books.
02:03:49
Speaker
Well, I Apparently, and this is something again that Dan and I were talking about last week, and I genuinely didn't know this until looked into it. Apparently, they're based off of, I think it was a thing called Project Facade. Ken Levine had seen these people who had their faces reconstructed from the First World War. Yeah, and he'd based them off of these particular people who had gone through completely unimaginable horrors and hardships and their faces had been disfigured. And he took that idea and implanted it into the Splicers who, you know, because they're drug addicts there, that they're shooting up an Eve and everything, that their faces are contorted and everything, that they're just monstrous visages. When I say that, I don't mean to demonise them or anything. I mean it in the sense of they have become something that they obviously weren't before. They were just living their lives. They weren't affected by anything like this. And then as soon as Adam was found, I think that was a game over for Rapture, as soon as Adam was discovered. Maybe Rapture would have survived a little bit longer without it. Yeah, it would have kept things on more of a sort of semi-even playing field. Yeah. Because we don't know what the long-term effects of Adam are, because, of course, they find it from slug-looking creature that they have to implant into a host to gather up stuff to make it. I mean, hell, we know sort of what happens.
02:05:12
Speaker
See Alexander the Great. Yeah, the great sea slug. yeah Yeah. Come one, come all. Oh my God. Have you seen the whole, I am the glob go glab galab? Yep. I am aware. That's what he looks like.
02:05:26
Speaker
Oh God, you're right. I'm not even going to try and explain that to the Pandaloodians listening. You can Google that. Yeah. Oh, on a slightly lighter note, when you were in his research facility, did you find the glowing multicolored unstable teleportation plasmid? You go into this one area where there's lots of cash and some expensive alcohol. On the desk, there's just this plasmid container that's just basically it's like a modern day RGB computer that's dropped in a vial. It's just going through the color spectrum like nobody's business. You interact with it and it disappears. Yes. No, I don't...
02:06:02
Speaker
yeah Yeah. And I love the fact that you can follow it around the facility and you can eventually get a plasmid from it. But I love the fact that it teleports to different places. You can see this splicer looking up at Confusion as this plasmid container just appears in front of him and chases him down a corridor. It's crazy. And you get, I think it's a shop discount upgrade where you get 20% off all shops, which is a very weird coupon.
02:06:25
Speaker
But yeah, I spent way too long chasing that thing around the facility trying to find where the hell it went. I have to say it is a bit annoying sometimes when you get lost in this game. I mean, it's better than the first one, but there are some moments where you're like, where the hell am I? And then you hear the big daddy groan and you're like, well, at least found another little sister. Oh, and unless it's one you've already cleared, then all that will happen is the big daddy will just walk around banging on the pipes, getting all upset and grumpy. Oh, that broke my heart. As you said, they knocked the pipe then they go...
02:06:55
Speaker
And then they walk on the door like, aww. And it's like, aww, I feel bad. Does she hide the lotto system behind your back? Yeah, it's like, let's go, let's go. Mr. Bubbles? No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, I'm Mr. Bubbles. Don't look at Mr. Bubbles too. No, no, no, no, please. Pull out some keys and just jingle them and go, keys, keys, keys. Luke, it's a bunny. Yeah. Do you want to find an angel? As a kind of closing point. A very morbid closing point though. Yeah. What are your final thoughts on this game? I'm glad that it got a remaster. It really deserved it.
02:07:26
Speaker
It was really fun to play again because i hadn't played it since it came out. So yeah, the last Bioshock 2 I played was of course the one that came out in 2010 and I haven't touched it since. And i was like, man, I don't remember any of this. It's like I could have sworn there was one part here where you you go through an area it's like a vending machine it's got two buttons and the left button has got a human face on it and the right button has a big daddy's face on it and if you push the human face button you got a shock and if you push the button that has a big daddy face on it and you got treats.
02:07:57
Speaker
i was like I didn't find that but I have a vague memory of that so it was nice to slip the diver's suit back on and clomp across the sea floor again. As I said before, Pioshock is one of those games that I've always known about. I got the ending spoiled because it's so popular in the gaming pop culture sphere, let's face it. Would you kindly? And so on. And I remember watching a playthrough of it years and years ago thinking i will never play these types of horror shooter games. Boy, was I wrong when I got older, but I finally played it this year. i thought this is incredible. incredible game and that's the reason that inspired this month because is just such a fantastic game and a series as a whole. So when I played the sequel I was not expecting it to match anywhere near the same levels as the first one and in some regards yeah I can understand why it doesn't but I think for what they did for the world of Rapture and Bioshock as a whole i think they did a fantastic job. I think they introduced a lot of very interesting core ideas into the franchise. I think even Ken Levine has said himself that he likes the ideas that they came up with because you think, oh, is it canon? Is it non-canon? I think it is theoretically theoreticallycanon It's just kind of a shame that there were no, and again, I know why, it's because the characters weren't A, invented by Ken Levine, or B, invented at all at the time. So they had to invent new characters, you know, that were always in the background, but you've never heard of them until the second game.
02:09:30
Speaker
And it's like, but surely there would be some talk about it. And again, you could argue that's because she got locked up for a couple of years by Andrew Ryan's goons, but Yeah, I do think for what they did, it is a fascinating look into the opposite side of, oh, what if Rapture, but collectivist. And yeah, we can agree that it doesn't work either.
02:09:50
Speaker
But it has such a beautiful ending, a bittersweet ending, but just such a beautiful ending. And I mean, it tugs at my heartstrings, the whole father-daughter relationship. Same with the first game, the ending for the first game absolutely got me. You know, I was in tears. I was like, this is so beautiful vote especially for the second game where although you've rescued your daughter and given her a better life and the rest of the little sisters it was just a beautiful way to end the rapture chapter of this series and i don't think it could have done it any better to be honest As I said, there's some minor moments that i didn't like, and again, while I love the remastered version, i think it's great, I was in the same boat as you that I kept crashing a lot more compared to Bioshock 1 remastered and infinite. For whatever reason, it was always Bioshock 2, and it made me dread having to do those little sister missions, because after every time they harvested out of body, I would save. You've done one body save. Okay, you've done another body save because kept losing so much progress and it was so annoying. I know what the problem was. was a memory leak issue. That's insane, isn't And if you save the game, it effectively would clear the issue. So it would still accumulate over time, but it was only on that one mission. Such a pain.
02:11:09
Speaker
is again it's probably the worst part of this game and again it's not a fault so much of the game itself in terms of the story and the characters and whatnot it's an optimization issue i don't know if the console editions are any better i'm not hard i'm not sure i'm afraid yeah because i played on pc as well i i mean i've got it weirdly enough i've got the whole collection on xbox but i don't know why i just decided yeah let's play on pc because i've been sitting there gathering digital dust so i thought screw it Let's go. Let's do it. Absolutely fantastic game. Absolutely fantastic series. ds If you don't mind spoilers and you've been listening to this going, oh, I want to try this series genuinely, I'd recommend the first one, but I would especially recommend the second one because it's just a fantastic end to the series. And I say end as in the end to the Rapture series because next week, of course, we will be joined by Luke from the Howdy Beans podcast, where we'll be discussing Bioshock Infinite length...
02:12:07
Speaker
That's all I can say. In sheer length, there is a lot to sink our teeth into, so I cannot wait for you guys to hear that. But saying that note, Toaster, thank you so, so much as always for a returning after our Living in the Warhammer Universe episode, and B, just joining me for this fantastic month of Bioshock. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for having me on, and please, please, please make sure that you take a parachute with you when you go up into the clouds. and I'll try.
02:12:37
Speaker
um try. I'll do my best. But yeah, before we enter this bathysphere that is very conveniently placed right beside us because Dan stole the other one. Again, not bitter.
02:12:47
Speaker
but Before we escape and rise up from this dilapidated pod pack city, where can these fantastic Pandalorians find your contents? So you wonderful beans can find me on Twitch at Robotic Battle Toaster. I'm a variety of content creator there and I play a little bit of everything. And at some point, I do need to drag you back to some mech warrior at some point so we can show people you doing a satsu. That is true. Yeah, I do like doing a bit of interior decorating.
02:13:16
Speaker
Yeah, as long as it's not my rear armour. True, yes. and For context, I pressed the wrong button and I nearly shot Toaster in the back. It's like, what does this button do? And you just saw this beam of energy energy go right over you. I was like, oh no, I'm sorry. That was a railgun. Why did you fire your railgun? I'm sorry, it's my first day.
02:13:36
Speaker
ah And yeah, if you want to listen to more episodes from ourselves, then you can check us out at our website, chatsanami.com, as well as all good podcast apps. I also want to give a huge shout out to our Pandalorian patrons, Robotic Battle Toaster. You may have heard of him.
02:13:52
Speaker
Sonia, Ghosty and Cryptic 1991. Thank you all so, so much for supporting the show. And if you would like access to exclusive episodes, commentary tracks, bloopers, early access, as well as Toaster and I's rendition of Living in a Goofy Rapture, then you can... You can indeed, for the low, low price of £1 a month, for legal reasons, that last thing I said there's a joke, not about the £1, the goofy rapture is a joke, then you can indeed check us out on our Patreon page, patreon.com forward slash chat tsunami. This podcast is, of course, a member of the Podpack Collective. For more information, check us out on our Twitter slash X page at Podpack Collect.
02:14:33
Speaker
But until next time, thank you all so, so much for joining us. And if you'll excuse me, Toaster, I think it's time to get in this bathysphere, pull the lever, There we go. And yes, as we rise to the top of this... Oh god, it's exploding. Oh dear. Ah, I left my CD player down there. Your CD player?
02:14:53
Speaker
but Yeah, look, I've got futuristic sci-fi tech from the alright? I thought you were going to say your Walkman or something. I that was the 80s, but still. Oh no, no, no. Don't bring a Walkman underwater. mess with a magnetic cassette. Then why would you bring a CD player?
02:15:08
Speaker
It's shiny. Ah, true, true. Wow, that city really is sinking, isn't it? Oh, God. did Did you see that giant squid just then, or was that me? You know, to be honest, I've kind of been blocking out all of these eldritch hoarders that have been going by us. Pretty sure I heard one of the moth people go by us, but... Oh, yeah, you as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, there's one down there. that she She's, um, Satsu, she's swimming up after us. She's gaining on us, Satsu. And on that note, guys, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay Keep hydrating!