Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Kindness and Creatures: A Conversation with Valiant Game Studio
8 Plays1 minute ago
In this episode, Satsunami is joined by the CEO of Valiant Game Studio Anna Högberg Jenelius to discuss her latest deck builder game KreatureKind! In a game all about debate rather than combat, how does it get its message across? Is a game developer responsible for using their voice for a good cause? And how does the current gaming landscape reflect this? All of this and more in today's episode of Chatsunami!
Check out Valiant Game Studio here!
Buy KreatureKind here on Steam!
This podcast is a member of the PodPack Collective, an indie podcasting group dedicated to spreading positivity within the podcast community. For further information, please follow the link: https://linktr.ee/podpackcollective
Where to find us:
Check out all of our content here!
Support Us:
Patrons:
Super Pandalorian Tier:
- Battle Toaster
- Sonia
- Ghostie
- Cryptic1991
Red Panda Tier:
- Greenshield95
- Danny Brown
- Aaron Huggett
Free Members:
- Middle-aged Bodcast
- IRIDYSCENZIA
- Rob Harvey
- Aaron (Super Pod Saga)
- Billy Strachan
Use my special link zen.ai/chatsunami and use chatsunami to save 30% off your first three months of Zencastr professional. #madeonzencastr
Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr
Stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction with Anna, CEO of Valiant Games Studio
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:16
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chatsunami. My name's Satsunami and joining me today is none other than the fantastic CEO herself.
Challenges and Role as CEO
00:00:28
Speaker
It is Anna from Valiant Games Studio. Anna, welcome to Chatsunami. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Yeah. How are you doing today? I'm good. a little bit stressed or, I don't know, a hangover stress maybe from releasing my latest game a couple of weeks ago. But apart from that, I'm doing really well. Thank you. Yeah, I'm glad to hear that. Well, I'm glad to hear that you've released the game and everything, not the stress. Yeah.
Overview of Creature Kind Game
00:00:51
Speaker
That would be a terrible way to begin to say I'm glad to hear that But no, absolutely Because as I was saying there You're indeed the CEO of Valiant Games Studio That honestly has such an extensive list of games to your name Because, and i hope you don't by me saying I was having a look earlier to see the kind of games that you had made and one of them which actually is the reason that you and I crossed paths on social media was your latest game Creature Kind which is a is it right in saying a deck builder type game Yeah, Deck Builder, Car Battler. Honestly, I don't fully know where one begins and one ends, so I usually use both those. Roguelite, unlike many other games in a genre, it's more wholesome and it's approachable, it's very colorful, and I want to be inviting to new players um because I feel like a lot of games in the same genre, they might look a little bit daunting when you first see them. Like if you're new to Steam, you might not start with Slay the Spire.
00:01:51
Speaker
So I just wanted to lower the bar a little bit and... make it easier for people to get into this type of game. Oh no, absolutely. And I have to say, as someone who has played it, thanks to yourself graciously giving me a key to it, it such a surprising game. And I mean that in all the best ways, because as soon as I saw I wasn't sure what type of game it was going to be. i knew it was a deck builder and everything. And I thought, is it going to be like these other ones have come out but the thing that really took me off guard and again in all the best ways was the fact that it wasn't a violent game if that makes sense the core of it is that you're playing as a character who's trying to restore magic or mana rather to the world's
00:02:36
Speaker
I thought, right, okay, are we going to be battling monsters? Are we going to be diving in fist first? But then when I saw it was all about using these cards to essentially debate in a turn-based combat style, and used combat loosely, I mean verbal combat. yeah But I thought it was so unique and of course the characters were so vibrant, I loved the designs of them, the music as well, that lo-fi track because I am a sucker for lo-fi, not gonna lie. So I've got to ask, what was the inspiration behind making it the way it's
Evolution and Themes of Creature Kind
00:03:12
Speaker
turned out? Because am I right in saying that the alpha version had swords and things? It did have a sword in the beginning, but there was sort of ah an angle to it. There was also a reason why there aren't any a swords anymore. So to take you back from the very beginning, it actually started when we, I say we, because then I had two people working with me in the company. Right now I'm only one person working full time, but I work with freelancers. So we working on our first game called Pendula Swing. And we were sitting at lunch and we saw this article about a young girl who had found a sword in a lake.
00:03:42
Speaker
In the real world, a girl had found a sword in a lake. and i was reminded of another article that I read just a couple of months earlier about another girl who had found a sword in a lake. And I was like, what is going on? This is very random. And clearly there must be some magical explanation for this, right? like we started together sort of build this sort narrative of what's going on. Why are these girls finding swords? And like, of course, they're chosen by some deity. And then later when it was time to make the next game, we sort of kept spinning this story basically and sort of seeing where where it took us. And what I came up with when we started pre-production was basically that the swords they enhance whichever inherent abilities you have. So like if you're a very empathetic person, your empathy just goes on steroids. Or if you're very good at hacking, you become a better hacker. or whatever it is. like It was meant to be you become a better fighter because it's a sword. But you know new times call for new heroes, so they didn't need big burly guys with swords anymore. They needed empathetic fighters who could save magic instead or save the world in other ways. But it turns out when you make a non-violent game, having swords in the game, it didn't really work out basically. So no one understood really what the game was about.
00:04:52
Speaker
So the swords were removed and the story was quite reworked as well. So in the beginning, was more like monsters in our real world were starting to come out and start to wreak havoc.
00:05:02
Speaker
So like the actual yeti in the Himalayas was coming out and disturbing the peace of the people there. So you sort of went to different continents and met different cryptids from different cultures. but just didn't really click it and really work out and also at that point it was more linear and there was a big bad that you had to come convince in the end it was basically going to the un and saying hey can we please do something about this but then i realized in the real world there isn't really a big bad that you can sort of defeat and then everything is going to be fine that's just not how the world works so that's why i wanted to make it more about winning influence instead like building a movement so that we all together work towards the same goal so that's how the game works now instead
00:05:42
Speaker
So it's a fictional world instead because it just gives so much more room to play around with.
Environmentalism and Humor in Gaming
00:05:47
Speaker
And also, yeah, like I said, it's about building this movement, about recruiting more and more people to your side, both playable characters and also just talking to all these different magical factions and getting them to understand importance of now conserving mana and taking care of magic so that you don't run out of magic entirely. So it has shifted over time. It's always been a non-violent game and it's always been basically essentially an environmentalist game, but it's just the packaging has changed and the swords are now gone because that just, yeah, don't make non-violent games with weapons because people get very confused.
00:06:19
Speaker
That's a lesson learned. Yeah, because I have to say, when I was researching this game, I was looking going, huh, that's interesting that you still have swords. And then, of course, when I was playing it, there's obviously no hint of a sword. Honestly, I thought the combat and things, if you can even call it combat, you know, because it is gameplay wise, it's combat.
00:06:39
Speaker
But I thought it was interesting the way that you had split it up. So for anyone who isn't quite aware, and trust me, you will probably be buying a copy after this episode. please do yeah please honestly it's a great game but it's split into three separate and again they use it loosely to say attack types you've got the emotional debate you've got the intellectual show one and you've got the logical one is that right yeah rational factual and emotional yeah That's the one, thank you. The characters that you're debating against, their health bars aren't just, well, some of them are one long bar of health, but some of them are split based on the different types of debates that you can have against them and how effective that's going to be. So essentially it breaks up
00:07:29
Speaker
the combat and it breaks it up rather than just saying oh i'm overpowered i'm just gonna click the one that gives you minus 500 or whatever points you can't really do that and it paces you out and it makes you think right what am i going to do here am i going to use this card am i going to use that how am i going to build the deck i thought it was genius when i was playing it because initially I was like oh I'm not sure about this because I'm so used to having one health bar in turn-based games but then i realized actually that is perfect for this type of game that it's allowing you to breathe with these characters it's not just you're mashing the button going okay I'm going to do this I'm going to do that it allows you to get to grips with the game it allows you to get to grips with the setting and everything again I'm not just saying this because you're here but It is such a fantastic way that you've built up the game, especially the characters as well.
00:08:23
Speaker
I thought the characters and the artwork as well was done absolutely brilliantly as well, because it really gives you a feel for this fantasy world that at the same time has a small sense of familiarity to it. It's not like you're saying, oh, this is Whimsyland, right? You step in and you're like, oh, this is completely different. I don't know what I'm doing here. You've got the urban areas. It almost reminded me at some point so of, you know, Coffee Talk? Yeah, yeah. Where it's like the hybrid between that fantasy element and obviously not all of the stages are modern, but you know, you've got the streets and things and the big.
00:09:01
Speaker
grey skyscrapers in the background. Yeah, I just, I thought it was so interesting that you had characters who, again, going back to what you were saying about this environmental message, that they were using their mana and magic for just the silliest of reasons, that it wasn't even, oh, I'm going to conquer the world, or oh, I'm going to do this. It was like, oh, I'm making a spell to make better cakes, or I'm making a spell to make a great song, those kind of things. And I thought i was just really clever and really well. Well done. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for all of this. bill I feel like barraged with positive feedback here. I really appreciate it. No, but I like i feel like since it's about environmentalism, basically how we treat our world today, I feel like grounding it a little bit in our world and like making it modern. So sure, it's Mothman and it's Goatman and a Yeti and stuff like that. It's cryptids and monsters and some of them are mythological monsters as well that we might know from ancient Egypt.
00:09:58
Speaker
But still, I want it to feel contemporary, like I want you to empathize and really connect with the characters. And also I want it to be funny. I want it to be lighthearted and tongue in cheek because I think that's the best way of sort of relating to it. Because it's so easy when it's about environmentalism and it's about sustainability that it feels very heavy. and You maybe even check out a little bit because it just gets so, so dark. So want it to be fun. And yeah, like I said, like you talked about, if you find there reasons for using magic and using mana to be silly, then hopefully maybe you reflect a little bit on our world. Like, what are we using our resources for? Is it always really that? Do we really need to do everything that we are doing? And on a little bit more serious side, I also wanted to give a little bit of a toolkit for if you meet people who you disagree with, how can you meet their arguments?
00:10:42
Speaker
So there is a little little bit of a serious side to that as well. I find that humor or keeping it quite lighthearted makes it easier for people to actually listen and actually keep playing the game so hopefully i managed to reach that goal oh no totally funny enough one of my friends who's also a fellow podcaster marie from the two girls one reusable cup podcast she also runs a sustainability podcast and trust me if she's listening to this she's probably way to download this game right now to be like, I'm going to check it But one of the things that we had talked about as well when we were talking about her podcast in particular was, yeah, just that idea of what you were saying there, that it's quite a heavy topic when it comes to environmentalism and sustainability, but it's also so important. yes
00:11:30
Speaker
And it's trying to reach that balance in between because... And again, not getting into the nitty gritty too much, but there's a lot of internet discourse where people really don't want to listen to certain things or a lot of things, especially for sustainability, it gets muted or buried under other content and things. It's such a shame because obviously it's important. But again, the way that you've incorporated that message into this game is absolutely fantastic.
00:11:59
Speaker
Kind of sidestepping the game for a second and don't worry, but we will come back But I was looking at your other projects and your other games and I saw that you also did something called BioSquare. First of all, I want to ask a bit about that. How did you come up with that and such?
00:12:15
Speaker
And also, has sustainability always been a core theme that you've always tried to incorporate into your games and any projects? Yeah, to answer your second question first. yeah For me, sustainability is... care about a lot of social issues of all kinds. We have a lot to improve in our world and I'm a little bit of an optimist. I think that we can together make the world better for everyone, kinder and more inclusive and so on. But I think sustainability is pretty much the most important issue because if we don't have a world that we can have it, then nothing else matters.
00:12:48
Speaker
So it's it sort of trumps everything. And I think also that games, they are entertainment and I think... to a large extent they should be. And we do need escapism as well. But I do feel like we have such power as game developers to be part of the narrative in our society. and Like we can shape the way we talk about certain issues. If it's in a more optimistic, fun way that I chose to do in CreatureKind, or if it's a game more about sustainability, like maybe more serious, more of an educational game. We have such a strong voice and I think that we should use it.
00:13:19
Speaker
I usually try to incorporate some more serious issues into my games, even if it's sort of more under-served. Because it's hard not to. I want to, as a writer, it's hard to not talk about the issues that I find most important because that's what art is. We should use art to talk about what some people consider politics because otherwise I think art is kind of meaningless. The point of this is to question now authority and so on, in my opinion. Mia, to answer your first question, so BioSquare is a game that is way more actually realistic and actually more educational, I suppose.
BioSquare and Real-world Initiatives
00:13:50
Speaker
The point is to mimic real world projects, primarily from the UN, but also other organizations that are working in the Sahel region in South Sahara, in the Sahara Desert in Africa. So the point is to sort of show how to reforest and like take care of the lands there and stop the spread of the Zara Desert. There are many really good and really successful projects in that region, thanks to the Great Green Wall, which is a flagship project from the UN. And what we also want to do with the game is to support these projects through the game. So you will not only learn and sort of use the same methods as they use in the game, but also you will be able to learn about the actual real world projects and be able to donate to them. And part of the proceeds will go through the projects and so on as well. This project, I didn't actually come up with myself.
00:14:37
Speaker
I got to know the brain behind it a couple of years ago, and I've chosen to sort of jump on and use my knowledge and network and so on as a game developer in Valiant to try and get that project off the ground. Full disclosure, it has been a little bit hard to get funding. So we're working on that right now to sort of really get the project started for real.
00:14:55
Speaker
we We are in talks with several different organizations working in African continent, We're really hopeful and we hope that we can soon really kick this into gear properly so that we can start making the game. Honestly, that is absolutely fantastic.
00:15:08
Speaker
It is just such an important thing. Again, going back to we saying before, it is just such an important topic. to address and especially through the medium of both game design and something that is also educational because if you look at a game like just off the top of my head something like sonic the hedgehog where you've got at least with the older games you had this semi-environmental message of a blue hedgehog find this scientist and everything but the message kind of gets lost in the spectacle of it you know it's like you can't really sit someone down after playing sonic and go now what have you learned today? I mean, some people might, but but, you know, at the same time, these kind of games are just so important to be out there. Out of curiosity, because I know you've been doing this since, is it right in saying 2017?
Game Industry Changes Post-COVID
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah, so with Valiant, I've been, Valiant has been around since 2017. I personally have been indie developer for two years before that. I said a small company before that was the sole proprietorship, but I've been a game developer for... A few more years even beyond that. 14 years personally, Valiant, since 2017.
00:16:16
Speaker
so thousand and something Do you feel as if, say from when you started to especially nowadays and definitely in a post-COVID world as it were, do you feel there's been a shift in the attitudes in game design and the landscape of gaming as a whole? I think it depends.
00:16:35
Speaker
I think definitely there are a lot of game developers who make more serious games and like to talk about serious issues. But then again, there are so many more fun entertainment games as well. Like I think games are just like the games industry keeps growing in Sweden where I'm based and in other parts of the world as well. Like so many new countries are popping up. and new continents are started to be represented like the African continent, for example, more more gain developers are gain development hubs are popping up there and gain development companies and so on. And I think that's really interesting. So I feel like we're just getting more of everything. and I think that's great.
00:17:09
Speaker
And I think that more and more voices are getting heard, which is amazing as well. These voices come from more places. There is, of course, also the opposite trend as well, like the lists of woke games and I've seen several curators on Steam that warn you against that and so on. So of course, there is also always that movement of people and players who don't want to see quote unquote politics in games. And of course, just the the climate in general in the world is obviously As it is. We're getting very political here in this podcast, but yeah, yeah we all know what's going on in the world. So like like I said, of course, there are always entertainment games that are purely entertainment and they don't really touch upon anything outside of that. And I think that's completely fine. And also I think that a lot of creators feel the need to talk about more topical issues. Like I said, art is inherently political. If you're consciously trying to not talk about anything political or anything, like touch upon anything that's going on in the world, then that is also a conscious choice that you have made. And I think we are, in my opinion, if all games to a large degree don't use our voices, I think that's really a shame because we we can be such a force for good. And what a person's good is, that's of course up to you. My good will be different from someone else's good. But if we don't try and make the world better in some shape or form, I think we are really missing an opportunity that we have as game developers.
00:18:28
Speaker
Honestly, I think that is such an important message to put out. Because that's the thing as well. I mean, whether someone is a influential content creator, or especially in your case, a prolific game developer, it is important that a you want to make the games that you want to make and then b you want to put in what you think is right to put in said game again going back to creature kind when you were talking about the main characters having swords and then not having swords and then moving into the fantasy world as opposed to the real life the fact that although these design choices can change over the course of it, the core message at heart still stays the same. And I want to totally co-sign what you said there, just about the very undesirable people, as it were, who have created these quote-unquote lists and have said, oh, back in my day, it wasn't woke and oh, there was no politics. There was though.
00:19:28
Speaker
Yeah. It depends on what you call politics and also depends on, I think some people play with rose into glasses or maybe they were children when they play those games. Let's say Final Fantasy 7 is a very political game and that it's an environmental game. So if you like set Final Fantasy 7 and don't like woke games, I have bad news for you.
00:19:47
Speaker
And people talk about, oh, I like, I know the Bioshock games because they're not political. I'm like, well, okay. So what do you think a political game is? So yeah. It's is someone who in a month or two is going to be doing a full month of Bioshock I cannot emphasise more that that is such a political game ah oh Ayn Rand has a lot to answer for for that you know, objectivism? Look it up, guys, come on. Yeah, I'm totally with you there. Even with some games that maybe you wouldn't think, like some of the Call of Duty games, even obviously at the surface, they're not very deep, but they've still got some political elements. And then you hear the old, oh, it's not political. And you're like, It clearly
00:20:37
Speaker
It's geopolitics. I mean, come on. And you think, I don't know it is just a symptom of, again, ever since the lockdowns and everything, thing and this is something that i talked to some fellow creators about, the fact that for so many years, you know, we've been stuck behind computers in our house and talking to people online. And i think that's kind of fostered ah Again, not overall, but I think for a lot of people, the Findies communities, and I use that very loosely, communities that think that there's no place for certain games that have a message. The one that always gets me, just when you were saying that about Bioshock, is whenever someone talks about Star Trek not being political, or even worse, Star Wars, and it's like, did you not watch the prequels? Did you not watch TNG? g Like, come on, guys.
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah. But again, I think that just depends on what people consider politics. Maybe people aren't as, for some reason, might not really deconstruct the socialism of, I don't even watch Star Trek, but I know it's quite socialist. And like, maybe if you don't have the language to really deconstruct the concepts that are brought up. i don't know, maybe it's a little bit too... I don't know, maybe not everyone has that toolbox.
00:21:48
Speaker
We have been told that no, politics, that is when there's a black person in the game. Socialism is an actual system of politics. But if you are not trained enough or like not well-read enough to see the signs or understand what socialism actually is and not just treat it as a slur, basically, that something is socialist, then you might not understand the concepts of a TV show like Star Trek. So I guess just the word politics, and like what that is, has been little bit morphed, I suppose.
00:22:17
Speaker
And just like you said, I think due to the pandemic and other things like just social media in general and our algorithms, we get bundled up in our little bubbles, our echo chambers. It's so easy to just fall into the rabbit hole, I suppose. of Well, I don't like it. And people say this is political. So I guess
Political Themes and Diversity in Gaming
00:22:32
Speaker
it is. And I don't now wholesale everything that's related to this is bad. Yeah, because you get a lot of people, and this is the thing that genuinely, it just fills me with a lot of dismay, to be honest, where you might have one of the absolute best games of all time that is basically digital art, as I were. You know, it might have the perfect gameplay, it might have the perfect story, but then you go to play it, and then you get all these people parroting the same phrases, like, oh, it's
00:23:03
Speaker
as you were saying, it's diverse. Oh, there's a woman in it, or oh, there's someone of a certain ethnicity in it. I'm not going to play this because of X, Y, Z. And it is just, again, dismaying to see that. Yeah, I mean, I think it's sad, honestly. i haven't really looked it through, but when, know if you know about it, but the Woke game like made the rounds last year. Oh, yes. The one that got me was when they put in Sonic Adventure because of, ironically enough, environmental theme.
00:23:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm like, really? One game that stuck out to me was Dave the Diver as well. Like an amazing game. It's so brilliantly designed. I'm just playing through it right now. And like, it's such an amazing game. And the fact that it was not recommended because Dave is fat and there is a black guy and he's a chef.
00:23:50
Speaker
I think it's sad to feel like you have to limit the games that you consume based on such, in my opinion, silly things. It's so surface level. It just doesn't really matter. But they chose to put it in the game and that was their choice as artists.
00:24:04
Speaker
And now you choose not to consume it because of it when the game is amazing. So you are limiting yourself and the experience that you can have as a player, as a gamer based on this. The only way I can think about is sad. I feel sorry for people who feel like they need to not play a game because of this.
00:24:20
Speaker
You see a fat guy who is a swimmer. Oh no. Then what? I don't know. It's sad. I mean, to be honest, if you go down to any local swimming pool, and I'm not calling out any overweight people going to swim, by the way, but if you go there, you know, it's not the end of the world. You're not going to see someone like that. I think you're going be fine.
00:24:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's like, what? but Yeah, it's like they think they're going to burst it into flames or something be like, oh no. It genuinely reminds me of when I was younger, and I've brought this up before, but when I was younger, i used to play a lot of very kid-friendly games, you know, especially Pokemon and the like. And the more I grew up and I started getting into my late teens, I was like, okay, I should put these games away because I'm becoming an adult now. I should be playing more. And they sound so stupid, by the way. But it's like, I should be playing more adult games like Grand Theft Auto, Halo, Call of Duty, yeah, Gears of War. And then, of course, when I got to university, I went right back to Pokemon.
00:25:24
Speaker
That's the thing, though. It's so childish. Thinking back on it, it was just such a childish way to look at things. But the problem is, there's a lot of people who don't grow out of that.
00:25:35
Speaker
it is just so sad that they're missing out because they're listening to someone else. All that hard work that these particular developers have put in is just as going to fall on deaf ears if you get the loudest of these types of people coming up and going, oh I don't like it because of XYZ.
00:25:53
Speaker
And it's not even because it's their opinion, you know, that way. It is because somebody's and instructed them to do that do you ever because i'm guessing that even before game development you were a gamer yourself yeah so i was two years old yeah ah do you feel as if that attitude has changed when you were younger would you feel as if you'd be influenced by a loud and obnoxious person saying oh don't buy this game because you know it's terrible or it's got a certain character in it i don't remember that at all but i remember the times before social media back then maybe you picked up the odd actual physical magazine about games and read about them otherwise it was word of mouth or ads or you just literally went to the store and looked at what games they had and then you bought something if it looked good so i don't at all remember i mean sure of course we talked among friends and Of course, certain friend group liked certain types of games, but it definitely wasn't, oh, no, this game has X, Y, Z in it. You can't buy it. Absolutely not.
00:26:57
Speaker
Maybe it was, oh, this is, i don't know, a shooter. It was more like genre-based, like, okay, what type of game is it? Do you think you would like it? No, this game sucks because, i don't know, it's for kids. Maybe just that surface level, like, oh, no, Pokemon is for kids. But not even that. don't think my friend group was like that. we We kept playing types of games, I think, forever. So no. But again, I think it's social media. I think it's our bubbles, our algorithms that sort of dictate. If you fall into certain groups like YouTube or TikTok or whatever sees that you are a certain type of person, then, OK, you probably like this type of content.
00:27:31
Speaker
And then you fall into the rabbit hole of disliking certain types of games or really, really cropping up other types of games where it might be. No, I'm totally with you there, because i also remember a time before the internet was very widespread. I still remember the dialogue, you know? Yeah, same.
00:27:48
Speaker
Oh, that noise will never leave my head. But I even remember going to Blockbuster to hire games and going, oh, that game looks cool. And oh, let me try this. And don't get me wrong, there were people who probably did say, oh, that's a terrible game. Oh, that's a game for kids. But ironically enough, it probably would be coming from children to say, even in the playground, don't play this game because I've said it's terrible. And if that kid was popular enough, off, then people would go, oh, it's not great. But at the same time, yeah, there wasn't that pressure or as much pressure. And if there's any Pandalurians out there listening who disagrees with that, please reach out to us on this episode. We'd love to hear from you. But yeah, it seems as if the more connected we have become on the internet and things, there's a greater chance that we are going to get more opinions for better or for worse and again going back to creature kinds the fact that you have to well first of all you have to decide whether or not it is a battle worth fighting in a way to say and by battle again for legal reasons i mean a verbal battle but if it's a verbal battle or a debate that you want to get into because sometimes it's just like shouting at a brick wall Also, today we have so many games.
00:29:07
Speaker
So I think it's sort of fine to not like all games. All games are not for you. And that's fine. Like when I make a game, I don't make a game for everyone. And I think sort of the problem is when players see games that are clearly not for them, and they sort of take offense.
00:29:22
Speaker
So like when you see a game like, again, I think it's a bit sad to not play games so based on very surface level things. But again, if you see that this game is clearly not for me because I won't like it for one reason or another, then I wish more people would just move on and find another game. Because I feel like a little bit too many people also feel the need to express their opinion when they dislike a game and when they feel excluded from the target audience.
00:29:48
Speaker
Which is a shame because like again, there's so many games as a game developer. I'm very aware of how many games are released on Steam every single day. There is a game for you no matter who you are. So I think it's just a shame that so many feel the need to also review Bomb or whatever it might be or harass the developers of a game that they dislike. It is fine to dislike a game or feel like a game is not for you, but then just move on.
00:30:12
Speaker
I've had to do it so many times. I just wish more people did the same. That's the thing though, talking about representation in these types of games, because I personally don't ever remember, and this is me speaking as a white guy from Scotland here, I genuinely have never thought back to a game where I've said, oh, this game represents me, and it's like Gears of War with the big muscly men. I have never been that size, by the way. I've never kind of went, oh, I have to play this game because, oh that represents because it doesn't. I mean, I've played so many indie games into my adulthood, and honestly, I feel as if more and more I'm falling into the indie rabbit hole. as opposed to the kind of mainline games. Not that the AAA games are all terrible, because that would be generalising, but, you know, i've played games like What Remains of Edith Finch, Journey, again, Coffee Talk, Unpacking, those kind of games.
00:31:14
Speaker
And, you know, that's the thing, though. If I had this mentality of, oh, I'm not going to play these types of games, then I would have missed out on some amazing experiences. And, of course, if I thought like that as well, we wouldn't be talking now, of course, about your fantastic game. And it is true. It's just so many people are missing out on these types of games that, let's face it, and they need them in their lives, don't they? They need that. Yeah. And I was thinking about that when I said, as a kid, then you want to move on to more adult games. So you mentioned basically games that are violent. Yeah.
00:31:46
Speaker
ah because kids are not allowed or shouldn't be allowed to play two
Storytelling in Indie Games
00:31:49
Speaker
violent games. But in my opinion, I think we're doing ourselves such a disservice to say that, oh sex and violence, that's the sort of threshold if this game is for adults. Whereas let's say unpacking, that's a game I don't think a kid could fully, they could probably play it mechanically, but you think you have to have some life experience to fully appreciate the storytelling and like really fully understand because for those who are listening who haven't played the game basically you are just unpacking and you are placing items in a new home and you go through a person's life several different phases their relationships their friendships whoever they are living with And it's such a beautiful way of showing a life and telling a life story. In my opinion, that is also an adult game and like it's dealing with chronic illness and stuff like that. You've seen this story from a very emotional place. It may be that can help you process things. Maybe that's not even the best example. For example, I played a game called Bury Me My Love. don't know. Have you heard about it? I haven't played it, but i have heard of it. Yeah. So that was probably the most heartbreaking games I've ever played. When I finished it, I just sat and stared at my phone for i don't know how many minutes. So it's about your wife. you You're from, I think it's Syria, at least a country similar to Syria. And it was made around a time when a lot of people had to flee the country a few years ago. And you're basically texting with your wife as she's trying to make her way to Europe. And it's so heartbreaking. And like you get the messages as if she was actually texting you. So it's sort of real time and you help her sort of make decisions along the way. And it's absolutely heartbreaking. It's a horrible game and it's beautiful. And it's, I would never recommend that to a kid either. It's a very adult game. It sort of deals with very things that especially the time, still today, unfortunately, but especially the very on top of people's minds. So you could sort of process what was going on and you could understand better what was going on through the game. And in my opinion, that's also an adult game. And I think that the more of that kind of game we get, the better. Games that actually help us understand reality, understand ourselves, our relationships, whatever it might be.
00:33:45
Speaker
I'm not saying that we shouldn't also have violent games. That's completely fine. But I think we also need to have other types of adult games that talk about relationships or whatever it might be. Understanding ourselves better. Because there's so much more to life than violence. And my opinion, like, yeah, I've seen enough violence in games.
00:34:01
Speaker
I'm probably going to play many more violent games in my life, but... Also, it would be cool to keep exploring other parts of being a human being through games. but yeah and Because games are interactive, so by their nature, you can explore so much. and like You can understand things in a way that no other medium really can help you understand. Because you are doing things. You are put in the shoes of the protagonist or however the game is.
00:34:24
Speaker
played it's so personal it's so emotional in a way that no other medium is and i think that's so cool that we should use that even more to tell unique stories about things that teach us about life so yeah because that is such an important thing especially in terms of of game development as well the fact that when you're putting out game there, and we've all heard the controversial game lists where it's like, oh, look, it's totally not a scam, the game, and then it comes out, it's a scam, shock horror, and you're like, oh, great, we've got hundreds of these types of games all over stuff. and whatnot. I think it's a holdover from a time where games weren't really treated as seriously as they are maybe nowadays. Again, I think we're kind of coming full circle to having the attitude of, oh no, games should be one particular archetype. It shouldn't be about this and that in real life. But because of the amount of indie games I've played personally, honestly, it opened my eyes to see how beautiful this medium can be for storytelling. I've played and also done an episode on games like, as of was saying, What Remains of Edith Finch, Firewatch, those types of games that would be considered as walking simulators, yet they're some of the most impactful stories that I've ever played. Same with
00:35:47
Speaker
journey. The one that really got me, and I don't know if you've played this as well, was To The Moon. I haven't played it yet. It's on my to-play list. Oh my god, it is heartbreaking. I mean, obviously without spoiling anything, I would wholeheartedly recommend it because I'm one of these gamers that I was like, oh yeah, I'll play it, I'll play it. Never played it. And then, of course, I didn't play it until a couple of years ago and absolutely broke me. I was sobbing. I was again just watching the credits roll with tear-filled eyes like oh my god how did this happen kind of thing again it's going back to something you were saying there there's the idea of life experience for these games because a lot of these games a child probably could at least gameplay wise they could definitely play them but I don't think they would have got a lot
00:36:38
Speaker
out of them and games like to the moon i am so glad i played it as an adult with more life experience as opposed to playing it university because i definitely wouldn't have got as much out of it and there's just so many games like that even games like you know the lucas pope games papers please return of the obradin papers please that absolutely broke me in a different way Oh, good. It is. It's so good. And again, that's a game that my friend Adam and I reviewed a couple of seasons ago. But my God, the amount of times you just go on autopilot, you emotionally feel numb to the whole thing. You're just like, nope, nope, yep, nope. Let's do this invasive scan. Yep, no problem. And then as soon as you step back, you're like, oh my God. I mean, it's a game, but the same time, you just look at yourself going, is this the kind of person that this game's turning me into? Exactly. Just to reflect on that, I think, again, that's why games are so powerful, because you did that. It wasn't someone else. You weren't watching someone in a movie or something. You did it, and the game made you do it. Sure, I mean, you can only do so many things in a game, but you can probably justify within the confounds, like the rules of the game, why you did it.
00:37:52
Speaker
I think that's such a beautiful way of showing like, no, I mean, cruelty or whatever word you want to use, it can be found
Narrative Games and Player Perception
00:37:59
Speaker
anywhere. And like, we can all be the bad guys. Are you even the bad guy in that game? You are doing cruel things to regular people, especially if you want your family to live.
00:38:07
Speaker
I think it's such a beautiful way of telling that story. And it would be very, very hard to tell that story in a good way in a movie, for example, because then it wouldn't be you anymore. You wouldn't make those decisions. And I mean, even in some of the more mainstream games or rather different genres like Spec Ops The Line. Oh, that sounds so good.
00:38:26
Speaker
You're really taking off some of my favourite games here when it comes to the narrative and the way they tell the story. Yeah, also, I really recommend that game to everyone as well who hasn't played it. Because again, you are culpable. You did that. No spoilers, but The only thing I regret is the fact that I watched the story years and years ago before I actually got the chance to play it, because I thought, like, I'm not going to enjoy it, it's going to be a bog-standard shooter. I did the same with Bioshock, right enough, but then again, that got spoiled for me well in advance, but I still played both of them. They are just games that you sit there, you look at the screen afterwards, and you're like, oh my gosh. Yep. What an emotionally taxing experience. And I remember one of my very good friends turned around to me and said, you have to play Spec Ops The Line. That's amazing. It's such an emotional journey. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'll get around to it. And then, of course, you know, I'm texting them in the early hours of the morning going,
00:39:21
Speaker
I played several of the line. It's so good. It's one of those games that you don't expect to be good going into it. Even with some of the other heavy hitter games, like the one that really took me off guard, going back to something like Gears of War, where essentially you play as a big muscly guy killing bug creatures and things, and it's like, oh, right, okay, this is the standard fare. But in the second and third game especially, and I don't know, have you played any of these?
00:39:51
Speaker
ah A little bit, but not enough to fully know the full story. I mean, the overall story, you can kind of go, yeah, it's your typical fear of man versus monster.
00:40:01
Speaker
But there's one character, and I won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't played it, but my god, it completely blindsided me when I saw how tragic his story was, both in the second one with them trying to find a particular someone, and then the third one, him trying to deal with just this world that's crumbling around him. And it surprisingly makes you tear up, and you're like, this is a game about muscly men, which is mug-reaking. as I say, this shouldn't be this poignant. And it is. And I feel as if, as you were saying, that's exactly the point. If you were playing it as a film, and I think that's why a lot of the David Cage games kind of fall at the wayside because they do feel more like films.
00:40:47
Speaker
Although you press the prompts and everything, it doesn't have the same impact as you actually carrying out particular actions. And it's just that emotional resonance that these particular games have. Yeah, I often talk about Spec Ops Line in particular, because it's such a Trojan horse as well. They knew who would play the game. They knew what they wanted to tell those people. War is not cool. It's horrible. Again, not not going to spoil anything. But I think, for example, if you disagree entirely with me politically, you will probably not play my game. you will probably see it right away like, okay, no, this is not for me.
00:41:23
Speaker
So I know I'm very conscious about the fact that my games were probably never fully reached to people who might quote unquote, need the most. And Spec Ops line on the other hand, they knew the target audience, they knew what they wanted to say, and they said it in such an effective way. And I assume sort of the same gears of war then. I think that's really cool. And I think it's sometimes that can be the most effective way of really getting your point across
Balancing Narrative and Gameplay
00:41:44
Speaker
basically. Something that's quite interesting about Spec Ops, and I don't know if you've heard about this with the lead writer, i think it's Walt Williams. He wrote a book called Significant Zero, just basically about his time as a writer and things, and he has a chapter specifically dedicated to Spec Ops line and his period with it, and it's quite interesting. interesting read because one of the things he was saying was at the very beginning of the game and you have this big bombastic helicopter sequence a bit like any other shooter game of the time you have to have that big and loud in your face moment and that was a last minute decision by the studio they didn't really want to put it in to begin with and then they said oh no we're going to put this in grab the player's attention and I think he got so angry at that and again not spoiling anything that he wrote a cheeky wee retcon as it were into the story later on there's a bit of dialogue that they change when you get to that particular moment later on in the game so it's like a kind of flashback then goes to a flash forward and you know it's back and forth and i think yeah he was very angry at that but that That is the interesting thing though, isn't it? That a lot of studios, and again, I know it's something that you definitely don't do in your games. Your games are very open and honest about the message, the characters and things. But it's quite surprising, isn't it? That there's a lot of studios who kind of feel as if, oh, we need to have something like this. Like jangling keys, as it were, in front of the player to say, look at our game. Yeah, I mean, it's understandable in a way, especially AAA games or now quadruple A games, their budgets are insane. So they need to bring in as many players as possible. Like they can't really, I want us to trust the player. I want to sometimes trust the viewer to get it. But I understand that so many game developers, so many students feel like we literally cannot trust. our players to not get bored. and again, there are so many games on the market. If you spend five bucks on Steam, you can get i don't know how many games right now. There's just so many, so many titles out there competing, i guess, each other. So I sort of get the anxiety as developers. So like, we need to catch them, we need to get them, we need to make them stay. So it's a shame, especially when the creative vision or like the story suffers from it. But I think it's understandable. And sometimes whatever it takes to get the player to stay, and to hear your message, sometimes you might have to sacrifice part of your vision to ensure that people actually get to the point. I think we both know which point those back up the line that really that you should get to, basically. There's a very specific thing that happens that you do. If they don't didn't dangle the keys, maybe fewer players would get there. I don't know. But I think also if it was the publisher who was... I've also heard that they didn't always agree, everyone who worked on the project. And so it's it's a shame when it has to be like that, but also somewhat understandable. Absolutely. There's definitely that line, no pun intended there, but there's definitely the line between what makes a game engaging story-wise, but then also trying to make it a fun experience. I have to say the one that, especially for Spec Ops Align, that really threw me off was when they were saying, oh this is a tragic deconstruction of the FPS genre, or rather the shooter genre as a whole. By the way, we're going to include a fun multiplayer mode where you shoot one another. And you're like, hmm...
00:45:10
Speaker
It was specifically the multiplayer mode that I was thinking about that. Apparently there was some disagreement about that from what I heard. this Yeah. It's a fascinating game in all facets, I have to say. You know, whether you're focusing on the story or the gameplay or things like that, it's worth playing, I have to say. Oh yeah, Even in that, well, sorry, I say that, but i think it's been delisted. now hasn't it oh okay at least i think as of this episode i think it was delisted off of steam hopefully i'm wrong there and it's been put back up or maybe it was xbox i can't remember it was one of them anyway which is such a shame because if a game like that's getting lost to time then it has to be brought back yeah more people have to be traumatized
00:45:54
Speaker
Yes. I mean, at least single player. I understand if they won't support multiplayer forever, but single player definitely oh we should still be around. 100%. also, if you ever see anybody suggest games like Homefront and say, oh, it's similar to Spec Ops The Lion, no, it isn't. Your friends are lying to you.
00:46:14
Speaker
Yeah, I did not. I don't know about you, but I did not see eye to eye with that game after playing it. I was like, no. I know very little about it, but I can imagine. Yeah, kind of as a closing point and going back to your games, of course, as I was saying, you've done so many fantastic that games, obviously not just with Creature Kind, but also with BioSquare, with Pendulous Swing, which is a game have to say i am really curious about checking out, by
Indie Development Experiences
00:46:42
Speaker
the way. Yeah, please do. I hope to return to it one day because I know there are some bugs and so on that really want to squash and my players have been reminding me about them. The problem is just in the reality of having the funds and the time and everything to address it. So I really want to get back to it and maybe do some updates, ah give it some love at some point.
00:47:00
Speaker
But for now, I have to focus on Creature Kind and try and get that game in front of as many people as possible instead. So one game at a time. Do you feel as if you struggle with that though, that you say one game at a time and then an idea hits you and you go, I could probably fit one more game in.
00:47:16
Speaker
It's very hard as an indie to stay focused sometimes. So it was actually very strict now when I was finishing up CreatureKind that I was not allowed to start working on the next game because I already know what the next game is going to be. Or I have an idea. Any time that I could have spent on CreatureKind, I had to spend on CreatureKind.
00:47:33
Speaker
So maybe there were some hours late at night where like, I literally cannot code and more my brain is fried. But I'm just going to start on the mirror board. I try to be very, very strict and not get sidetracked. But it's hard. And again, like, I would love to go back to previous games and give them some love as well, because they deserve it. And I think the players who bought them deserve it as well. But you just in the reality is, at least for me, who has not yet really made a hit, I need to sort of focus my time where I think it's the most because my time is so limited, and I have to focus it on things that I can really motivate, basically. So going back to a game that's many years old now, and no one is playing is hard to motivate.
00:48:10
Speaker
So I want to do it one day, but just the realities of being an indie. So like I said, one game at a time. Right now we' focusing on Creature Cane and I really want to release more updates as well. It will come to new platforms. So if anyone does not want to play it on PC, you can watch this space. Go to my socials, Valiant socials. I will be posted there. But I want to fix any bugs that are still left.
00:48:30
Speaker
Give some additional content and features and so on as well. So I'm going to keep working on it for some time. We'll see exactly how long, but as long as people are asking for more content and more updates. Oh no, absolutely. I genuinely think that for all the panelists listening out there, I'm not just saying this again because you're on here, but I do think that Creature Kind is one of these games that, again, and this might sound hyperbolic to say, oh, it's so important, but games like Creature Kind are so important in the sense that it's such a different type of game. As you were saying at the very beginning, it's very tongue in cheek. You know, it's got that
00:49:08
Speaker
comedy and that sense of levity to it but at the same time it is still talking about a very and important message and it's not shying away from that it is so important to have games like that nowadays well i say nowadays but anytime really because video games as a whole have evolved into just this art form haven't they just really appreciate your kind words. And I think, i don't know if they really are an art form, games now, and it's such a huge topic, but I just really love making games and all the the parts that go into making games as well. Games are such a beautiful combination of visual art and music. And then there's coding as well, which is more technical. And there's the marketing. There's so many different parts that need to sort of come together to make a game it's a privilege to be able to make games and like i said i think as well it bleeds so deeply industry and like games as a whole and our power it's nice to be able to be a small part of this and maybe do something new or maybe change someone's mind or just if nothing else just entertain people so i'm really thankful for your kind words and i hope that more people like the game as well honestly if you're listening to this and you think that sounds right up my alley honestly go for it
00:50:22
Speaker
because is a fantastic game and if you want to hear my full thoughts on this game if you go back a couple of days to choose the you'll hear our chat to shorts episode where i reviewed the game and honestly i cannot recommend it more i think it just such a fantastic game it's such a fantastic idea and yeah this is definitely a game studio that deserves your attention so go for it get out your wallets and to Steam now. Genuinely, it's an absolutely fantastic experience. Thank you.
Where to Find Anna's Games
00:50:56
Speaker
Anna, thank you so, so much for coming on this episode today and, yeah, discussing your absolutely fantastic games. I just want to shout out one more, Mid-Vinter, which I didn't shout out when I was going through the list, so I'm just giving it a moment in the sun as well. That was my first game as an indie. I just quit my job at Paradox and I had six months to make a game. And I did, actually. I think it was six months and one week, if I remember correctly. So very simple point-and-click game. Very based on Swedish folklore. Wanted to bring that out in game. So if you want to, you can check out that as well. Oh, don't you worry, I will be.
00:51:31
Speaker
ah But yeah, before we wrap up, where can these amazing listeners at home find your content and also find your games? In and particular, were of course, Creature Kind. Creature Kind, of course, is available on Steam right now. It's Creature Kind with a K in the beginning, and it's just one word. And the other games are available there as well. So it's, pen oh well, not Biosquare yet, unfortunately, but we're working on it. Pendula Swing and Midvinter, Midvinter in Swedish, are available on Steam as well. We have a website which is Valiant.se where you can read the latest news and everything. Right now on socials, I'm most active on Blue Sky. That's Valiant.se as our username. So do follow us there. really appreciate it. I have done some TikToks. I believe it's at Valiant Game Studio as one word. Happened a little bit quite recently because it's just a lot to keep up with social media, even though i should do it now that I have ah a game out. It's just a lot. But as say, right now, you can catch us on Blue Sky and that's where we update most often.
00:52:32
Speaker
So if you really want to hear the latest news, that's where we have it. We have a Discord server as well. So if you just go to valiant.sc slash Discord, you'll find that as well. If you want to talk to me directly, that's the best way to find me. And if you would like to find more of our content here at Chatsunami as well, then you can check us out at our website, Chatsunami.com, as well as all good podcast apps.
00:52:54
Speaker
I also want to thank our amazing Pandalorian patrons, Robotic Battle Toaster, Sonya, Ghosty, and Cryptic 1991. Thank you so, so much for supporting the show. And if you would like exclusive content, early access and the like, then you can check us out at our Patreon page, patreon.com forward slash chat tsunami this podcast is a member of the pod pack collective for more information check us out at twitter slash x over at pod pack collect but until then thank you all so so much for listening stay safe stay awesome stay hydrated and most importantly go check out creature kind go on i know you want to go