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The Beauty of Bioshock || Bioshock Month
10 Playsin 1 hour
After an ominous invite to the depths of PodPack City, Satsunami dives deep into the world of Bioshock. Featuring guest co-hosts from Casting Views, RoboticBattleToaster, Howdy Beans and Game Club Pod, this is one month that you will want to submerge yourself in. So grab a podcast Plasmid and listen to us somewhere beyond the sea!
In this episode, Satsunami is joined by Dan from Casting Views to discuss the game that started it all: Bioshock! But how has this game held up since 2007? Could Rapture really have survived had it been run by someone else? And how similar are crypto bros to Andrew Ryan?! All of this and more in this exciting episode!
This podcast is a member of the PodPack Collective, an indie podcasting group dedicated to spreading positivity within the podcast community. For further information, please follow the link: https://linktr.ee/podpackcollective
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Transcript
Satsu's Mysterious Journey to Casting Views
00:00:00
Speaker
Well, time to get cracking on the last themed month of the season. But what the heck am I going to do it on? What's this? Satsu, this is Dan from Casting Views. You can tell because I'm reading this note.
00:00:13
Speaker
Oh yeah, that makes sense. Anyway, I have the perfect idea for a themed month. Would you kindly come over to the Casting Views studios located in the middle of the English Channel? You can't miss it because it's literally the only lighthouse there.
00:00:25
Speaker
I don't know. Ominous summons are more of a game club pod thing, but, well, since they asked so nicely, guess I guess better go check it out. Let me just grab my shoes and... Oh, what the... How the heck did I end up at the lighthouse already?
00:00:40
Speaker
One minute I was in my studio, and then the next... Ah, keep it together, Satsu. Do it for the podcast.
Do Indie Podcasters Deserve a Large Audience?
00:00:49
Speaker
Hello? Dan? Are you in that big gold ball with the lever? Come to think of it, what does that lever do? Uh oh. I am Dan from Casting Views and I'm here to ask you a question.
00:01:03
Speaker
Is an indie podcaster not entitled to a huge and growing audience? No, says the bot spammers. That should come from paying us for 100% organic growth. No, says the podcast host platforms.
00:01:15
Speaker
That should come from paying us for advertising. No, says the celebrity podcast host, it belongs to the celebrity. I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different.
00:01:28
Speaker
I chose the impossible. I chose the PodPak Collective. A collective where the artist would not fear the spammers, where the podcaster would not be bound by paying for success, where the indie voices would not be constrained by the celebrity, and with the sweat of recording in a stuffy room on a humid day,
00:01:47
Speaker
The PodPak Collective can become your destiny as well.
Bioshock Month and Gaming Views Podcast
00:01:51
Speaker
Welcome to Bioshock Month.
00:01:58
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to the first episode of Bioshock Month. My name's Satsunami joining me in this definitely not falling apart underwater city is none other than the architect himself. He is the host of Casting Views, Gaming Views and, well, before I introduce some more, Dan, would you kindly introduce yourself? Hi, so soon. Thank you. What an intro. What an intro. Yeah, honestly, that skip was so much fun to record for.
00:02:29
Speaker
ah to see I'm just glad I survived this one. Well, that is true. We'll wait till the end of the episode. There's no interstellar restaurants. There's no getting the biscuits out the airlock.
00:02:42
Speaker
What's the worst that could happen in a skit on Bioshock, right? What's the worst that could happen? You haven't been going golfing recently, have you? all got reasons that's a joke apologize but yeah dan how are you doing today i'm very well thank you i've really looked forward to this episode i mean we've been discussing it for a while haven't we and yeah it got me playing the game again and yeah i'm just excited to be on here it's been a long time since we've linked up and as you mentioned i've kind of now snuck a second podcast to my boat a gaming one and it's kind of made me approach things differently as i'm looking at the games as well And before we dive into today's episode, I do just want to point out that Gaming Views is such a good podcast. I was listening to it when I was coming home from work today, so definitely go check it out if you haven't already, because no doubt you will be doing an episode on Bioshock eventually, or that genre as a whole.
Satsunami and Dan's First Bioshock Experiences
00:03:33
Speaker
but absolutely fantastic podcast cannot recommend it enough if you're a gaming fan and yeah speaking of gaming fans indeed today we are deep diving all the puns intended into the weird and wonderful world of bioshock which as you were saying is something that you and i have been talking about for a while and i'm ashamed to say that this year was the first time ever played bioshock oh really yeah surprisingly so and before i turn it on you let me regale you my experience here but genuinely bioshock is one of those games that i remember always seeing when it came out in 2007 you know i saw the box art i saw it be absolutely praised by critics and reviewers alike they were saying it's masterful it's an example of video games being art which trust me i'm sure we'll get into later but It's a game that kind of put off because unfortunately for myself, since it's so popular, the twist in it, and this is a slight spoiler for everyone else out there, but yeah, the twist got spoiled for me.
Artistic Merits and Storytelling in Bioshock
00:04:41
Speaker
So I kind of thought, all right, I know what happens. I'm just going to leave it in the background. And I heard good things about it, but it wasn't until I went to university where I played Bioshock Infinite around, want to say 2013, 14 times.
00:04:54
Speaker
thirteen fourteen time And Bioshock Infinite was my first one, and I loved it. i thought it was fantastic, I thought the twists and turns were great in that, but then i thought, right, you know what, I've put this off long enough this year, I'm going to play Bioshock, I'm going to play the sequel as well. I absolutely loved them. And then it kind of soured my enjoyment of Infinite retrospectively. because I was like, it's such a good game. Surely the ones that came before it wouldn't sully that, and boy was I wrong.
00:05:24
Speaker
This game still holds up to the bar, maybe one or two exceptions, but we'll definitely with touch on it. But yeah, even my friend Adam, he absolutely loves this game, including a very specific mission in Fort Frolic, but again, we'll touch on that. I'm with him on that. but turning it back onto you, what was your experience with this game? Did you play it when it first came out or were you like me? Maybe not like me as in you waited so long, but yeah, what's your history with this game? Actually quite funny yeah and yeah, I played it probably, I think it was a year after release, but the origin of it was that at the time I had a PC, I was gaming on my PC. Now it wasn't
00:06:04
Speaker
a gaming pc i'll be clear but i was gaming on it and it was getting to so 2007 was getting to the end of its useful life most games couldn't run on it etc but then the bioshock demo came out and the demo for the game was the opening scene where you crash into the ocean and you've got to swim through the fire to the lighthouse right my computer couldn't handle that it kept crashing when you're in the water in the flames it just couldn't So my experience of Bioshock on the PC was just literally the opening scene. Fast forward to when was it? Well, it would have been a little bit later. So the next year and my PC was totally gone. My wife convinced me. She said, look, why don't you get yourself an Xbox? So I didn't need to be asked twice. And there were three games. I knew. So I ordered it and looked at Amazon because that's where I got it from. So I ordered it on the 11th of June 2008. So I ordered the Xbox 360 with three games, ones I had to play. One was Bioshock and the other two were games you you might not have heard of them. they went under radar. One was GTA 4 and the other was one by name of Mass Effect. Oh, I think I've heard of them. Are they indie classics?
00:07:09
Speaker
yeah Yeah. But to be fair, you know, sort of joking aside, those were the three games that I was crying out to play, basically, and Bioshock absolutely was. So I'd seen all the hype about it. It'd been out for, what was it, six months to a year? But yeah, 11th of June, that's when I got it. So I was playing it in 2008. Yeah, I've heard infamous things about the port to PC. This is a game that surprisingly had ports to the mobile.
00:07:34
Speaker
Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was on iPhone. There was like a 2D version of it. There was a 3D-esque version of it. It's actually surprising the amount of different versions they managed to get into this series. But funny you should mention that. Just something I picked up there when you said it was a PC that you played games on, but it wasn't a gaming PC. I can 100% relate to that because around the time I was at university, I used to have a PC that could...
00:08:03
Speaker
Relatively run games okay, but it got so bad that I had to use bottle caps to... Such a Fallout reference here. I had to use bottle caps to prop it up so that the fan wasn't blocked, but you could hear it from outside. You heard a... One of the games, funny enough, that I played on it was GTA 4. But I always remember I got to, you know, one of the most popular missions in the game where, spoilers, you rob a bank. But it's the bit where go downstairs to the vault, but everything disappeared. So like, I could see everything but where it was supposed to be. So I was just running into there being like, hope this is the way out because I genuinely do not know if my computer's going to survive this. So I can sympathise there.
00:08:46
Speaker
but It's quite interesting that you played this roughly, or I would say roughly around the time it was released and then I remembered that you said, ironically enough, much like the plane at the beginning, your computer crashed. Sorry, too soon. But yeah, this is honestly such a fascinating game because it's a game that is quite unique in the sense that when we talk about it, and you'll probably know this being on gaming views as well, that a lot of people don't really look at it as much as a game anymore. I mean, obviously, you know, it's a game, but you see it as almost an artistic expression. And I know that sounds so pretentious to say, but initially you look at it, you think, all right, it's just another shooter game. It's just another RPGs game. Oh, let's get into it
00:09:32
Speaker
But then the more you dive into it and the more you realise what this game's been inspired from and everything else, it's really quite amazing, isn't it? Yeah, I think you're right. I think the problem being, or not the problem, but back in the time, you didn't have all the resources available to you, maybe online, like all the history of it, the wikis on it. So you're spot on. You can play the game. If you pick it up for the first time, you can play through it kind of like an action shooter and you'll have fun with it I'm not going to say you won't have fun with it you'll absolutely have fun and that's no doubt exactly how I played it at first but the more times you play it the more you read about it that the layers that are there and you know it might sound really pretentious but it does feel like it's one of those examples where it's more than a game in terms of what it's trying to represent and I think I said to you over dms the other night that it's a shame in the sense of It's one of the games where you really do need to pick up the audio logs and listen to them. You know, a lot of games, you pick up the notes, etc, diary entries, and you can just discard them. But I think NIS absolutely cries out for you to find them and listen to them. I don't think that there were many games liked.
00:10:36
Speaker
that at the time were there are you know ones that had audio logs that gave you basically more information about the location and the settings and things but maybe more wind i suppose or games like that rpg heavy games you would expect to find oh a book about the lore of the world or things like that but nothing like this an action shooter game can you think of any examples No, off the top of my head it would be, I think, as you said, you're looking at your classic RPGs, but again, they're generally books or diary entries, which even I sometimes I will glaze over. But the beauty that this game did, it was audio logs and it was done in that old style recording like it was from the 30s or 40s, wasn't it? And it was all voice acted. It was all perfectly done as well. And it just lent to the atmosphere. I just want to jump in and say I absolutely love the aesthetic of this game, especially that retro futuristic vibe that they portray. I think it is absolutely masterfully done because at the time you come into Rapture, it's set in the late 50s, early 60s. It is so amazing what they managed to capture with that. And honestly, I have pages upon pages of the development of this game. But before we jump into that, while we take a quick break, put on our diving suits and get ready to jump into
Podcast Promotions and Spoiler Alerts
00:12:01
Speaker
it. Let's get into it then. And of course, we'll be right back after these audio logs.
00:12:06
Speaker
Welcome to Shatsunami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and general interests. Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's run as James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises. Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all good podcast apps.
00:12:42
Speaker
As always, stay safe. Stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:12:52
Speaker
Fancy taking a humorous trip down a random topic each week? You do while you're in luck. Casting views presented by me, Dan, and a host of guests bring you just that. with topics from the world of entertainment, science, sport, and everyday life, there's bound to be a topic that's going to inform and amuse.
00:13:10
Speaker
Catch Casting Views every Sunday on all listening platforms now.
00:13:17
Speaker
Phew, that was a really long journey in that bathysphere, but we are indeed back, and dryer for it with these wetsuits on. Anyway...
00:13:28
Speaker
Let's get into the game. So going forward, yes there is going to be spoilers for the story, there is going to be spoilers for a lot the gameplay and everything, so genuinely if you haven't played this game and you're curious about it, please feel free to pause the episode, go away and play it, and then come back and listen to the rest of the episode because genuinely it is an experience you do not want to miss out on. done I've got the million dollar question to ask you down here. Can you summarise what this game
Themes and Narrative Depth in Bioshock
00:13:59
Speaker
is about? Just in that overarching thing, you don't have to get into the nitty gritty details just yet because believe me, we we'll be picking that apart soon. I see I can say it in one word. Relationships.
00:14:10
Speaker
Oh, okay. I think relationships, good and bad. I mean, you're not wrong. Oh, it was three words then. No, I'll add two more. Relationships and power. There you go. I thought you were just going to say three words under the sea.
00:14:22
Speaker
Well, it is under the sea. Well, six words. Relationships and power under the sea.
00:14:28
Speaker
Brevity and all that. Brevity, yep. but I mean, we'll come on to it because, you know, you've got the whole twist bit, which I want to say before i forget, because you said you came to it spoiled. And by now everyone's going to know what a twist is. But for me, that's still not the biggest part of the game. Clearly we'll come on to it as Tenenbaum, the little sisters. And again, that's why I'm saying relationships. You know, it's a relationship you get with Atlas at the start. It's a relationship to Andrew Ryan. It's a relationship between big daddies and little sisters. I think that's why I'm trying to say, you know, I think for me it's a one word relationships.
00:15:00
Speaker
Yeah, because something you said at the very beginning of this episode was that you could easily pick up this game and play it just a generic action shooter. Because throughout the game, you play as Jack, who at the very beginning is on a plane, and unfortunately the plane decides, oh, look at that lighthouse, and decides to crash. So you end up swimming to the lighthouse, you get in the bathysphere, you get just absolutely perished. plummeted into the depths of the ocean, and then you come across a city called Rapture, to which you realise the horrors that have gone on here. And throughout the game, you fight against the enemies of Rapture, and then you have to uncover this mystery. Why did the plane crash? Why can only shoot my gun and not throw plasmids? Trust me, we'll get onto that. Things like that. You can play it easily like that and still get some kind of surface level enjoyment out of it.
00:15:57
Speaker
But I feel as if the strongest part of this game, as you were saying there, the fact you didn't even say, oh, it's fun and memorable or anything, the fact that you went for relationships just speaks volumes about this game. Would you say that though, that the story is the strongest element of this game? Yeah, absolutely. And again, this will sound a really strange thing to judge it by for your listeners, but it's a game that my wife will follow with me. My wife isn't a gamer, but if there's a game that's got a good story or elements to it, she will turn around and watch it. She'll stop whatever she's doing to watch those scenes to listen to that part of the game. And yeah, Bioshock was one that she got invested in. So if I was to step outside of the fact that I'm a huge fan of it and have played it multiple times over, what, just under 20 years now. It's the fact that she will watch it and, you know, we'll come on to it. But the ending got her a little emotional, depending on which one you get, obviously. So yeah, no, absolutely. And the more you dig into the story, I did some more diggings for this episode and there was stuff I was learning about the game that I hadn't picked up and Yeah, for me, it's an incredibly intricate and well woven story. And whilst elements of it have no doubt probably taken it from elsewhere and a lot of games have subsequently done that. And, you know, along with rug pulls, it's done really well in the game. And especially, well, when it's quite a solitary game, isn't it? You're not on your own. It's not when I say lonesome and solitary, it's not that you're on your own in there. But as a character, you don't speak. and the main protagonists that you deal with you see very little of it's generally the enemies that you come across isn't it and the little sisters so it's not that you've got a cast of characters that you bond with like i said it's told through those audio logs it's told through the two-way communication you get while you're going through the game it's told by scribbles on the wall graffiti on the wall often in splice of blood but we won't go into that it's just an incredibly well done story in an incredibly well done game for me because the That is something that is absolutely fascinating about this game.
00:17:54
Speaker
If you look at the cover of it, and I can hear the Pandalorians in the background typing furiously into Google, Bioshock 2007 cover, but genuinely, go look up the cover. the thing is about games around 2007 was that they always had some kind of identifiable hero in them you know like with halo 3 you had master chief you had years of war with marcus phoenix with mass effect you had commander shepherd in the front there was always this need for these big action games to have the hero at the forefront but for this game surprisingly if you look at it right now you might be thinking do you play as a guy in a big scuba suit he's like No, not really. Well, technically at the end you do, but no, for the most part of the game, no you don't. This big hulking monstrosity with the big drill for one hand and the big gloved hand for the other, and right beside him is this little girl that doesn't... really look right and that is no offense to the little sisters there's a narrative reason for this but it's fascinating to see that of all the iconography that they could have chosen you know they didn't focus on the main character and the main character although he is very important to the narrative 110% is one of the driving forces for the whole plot he's probably one of the most bland out of them. He has maybe one or two words at the very very beginning in the cutscene, but that's it. As you said, he doesn't really speak after that. There's no dialogue box that pops up, there's no interactions where you as the player has to reply immediately or reply at all. So he's a somewhat blank canvas. It's like Schrodinger's protagonist. It's like he is the most important part of this game, yet he doesn't really have a personality to
00:19:45
Speaker
That's the thing. That's what i was going to say to you. And I think I voiced my displeasure for a lot of silent protagonists in games, especially in the modern day. I think in the past, you know, it was a constraint thing potentially. But yes, in this game, Spot on nailed it on the head that, you know, your character, you could be anyone for 90% of the game. And there is no development in that sense of you.
00:20:04
Speaker
But the way the characters, a couple of them specifically, react towards you and the cut scene at the end, you tell me that there isn't that emotion there. So even though, like i said, for 90% of the game, 95% of the game, you are just a voiceless killing machine.
00:20:19
Speaker
It still conveys that element that you are a really important person in that world. Yeah, because usually when they incorporate a silent protagonist, it's to give the player an outlook into this world. And I feel as if, in some, maybe unconsciously, it links back to the idea that this game was potentially going to be an RPG. Because technically this is the same studio, so to give you Pandalorians a bit of backstory for this game, it was initially developed by what was formerly known as 2K Boston, and then it developed into Irrational Games, which I don't think is around anymore, is it?
00:20:57
Speaker
I don't believe so, no. Which is a shame. But then it was published by 2K. And this game, surprisingly, has been in development since 2002. two thousand and two And it was a game that was inspired by one of their previous games, which was System Shock 2.
Bioshock's Development and Rapture's Design
00:21:15
Speaker
From my very least experience of the game, I remember doing the intro and everything, and then getting killed by the first enemy, and then turning it off going, no, I didn't enjoy that.
00:21:26
Speaker
I'll have to go back and give it a go, but I just remember at the time being like, nah, this is not for me. But I was watching some interviews, as I do, and the development team were saying that they wanted to make it less of a by-the-numbers type RPG, if that makes sense, you know, someone rolling a dice off screen being like, oh, did you actually hit that person? Oh, let's see, which weirdly enough is something that put me off a Morrowind, but that's a rant for another day. So there was more of an emphasis that they wanted somewhat action-y game, and there was a lot of very core concepts I don't know if you've read this, but it is absolutely fascinating that this game ah originally, when they were trying to think of where did they want it to be, they were planning on doing it in a more sci-fi setting on that spaceship. Cough, dead space cough. LAUGHTER No, for legal reasons, I'm not saying they ripped it off, they didn't. ah Apparently, they wanted, instead of the Splicers, they were going to have genetically engineered characters called Savants that the players would have to defeat and advance to the next level. But i think they were quite put off by the idea, because eventually a lot of them were just brains in jars that would try to stop the player. And I think even they were going, yeah, this is a lot. little bit silly for us. So they moved back from that, they moved back from the more heavy RPG elements in order to make the game more engaging for players, and that of course led to the transition of it being a shooter game. And one of the things, and it's something you briefly touched on earlier about this idea of isolation, is that the creative director Ken Levine himself, the man, the myth, the legend, which we will have varying opinions on throughout the Mm.
00:23:08
Speaker
i think pair game but ken lavin stated that one of the reasons that they chose the rapture which is the underwater city of course that you play in the reason that was chosen always is due to his frustrations about certain games that promised this open world experience but had arbitrary roadblocks that were and So like, for example, if you were in a game set in New York or whatever, a bit like Spider-Man 2, that's the perfect example where it's like you could only go so far in the city. think, granted, they did an amazing job back then for that game, but, you know, there's only so far you can go before, oh, there's a police roadblock, or they don't even hide it, they just put invisible walls. So therefore they wanted this idea of, an isolated underwater city that was in an alternate future because Levine felt it was more relatable to players rather than shooting them off to Mars or Planet Bioshock. I do think that's quite a good point though because see if this was set in a more futuristic setting. Would you, and by futuristic of course I mean hardcore sci-fi away in the planet or on the Ishimura for example, would you have found it as compelling?
00:24:19
Speaker
It's a difficult one to answer isn't it because it's hard to say would you not have enjoyed it as much. What I would say is because you're right so it came out at the time because I'd already said at the start that I got it with Mass Effect and Dead Space was around that time. The space, the sci-fi genre had been done right. This worked really well for me but because it was so you know we've said it's underwater. It really helped with the isolation you know because you had this foreboding sense of being basically in like this pressure tank almost underwater. Probably not setting we've really had before. You know, maybe the Fallout games do it quite well, this kind of retro futuristic thing, but it feels a bit more relatable and especially for the characters you come across.
00:25:01
Speaker
And just to hit some of the things that you said, like, you know, I'm so glad we got the splices and not genetically made things because one of the things we're going to come on to in the game is that I think right from the off, well, not from the off, but once you've gone into the game a little bit, you really can tell that it's a fallen city. a lot of games they might put destroyed surroundings by you and say yeah this is the remains of a great city whereas Bioshock I think really does a good thing of making you feel like you're in the ruins of a city that's had history and that's why for me to go back to another point you raised that I'm really glad it's not an RPG now I love my RPGs you know that but I think this really benefited from it being that tight storyline now it's not on rails you can explore it's got hubs but i think it needed that constant moving of the story to make it as effective as it was now for me i would actually love a prequel as an rpg but that's just because i love the 40s 50s kind of styling and that kind of not art deco but you know what i mean that kind of fashion and
00:26:00
Speaker
I think that would work out as an RPG. Can you imagine being part of the conflict that was happening? I think that would work really well on a mission-based kind of game structure. Well, if you go all the way to Bioshock Infinite, I think Ken Levine answered one or two of those questions.
00:26:14
Speaker
ah that That's Alex from the Game Club Pods. Somber job. He's going have to talk about that DLC. All the Bioshock fans are nodding and all the people not familiar with Bioshock are probably going, what's he talking about? It's like, trust me, wait a couple of weeks, you'll find Stay tuned, stay tuned.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like he shot himself in the foot with that. But no, I'm totally with you there because, I mean, it's even explored in the book Rapture. And yeah, it is just such a rich and vibrant world that has just fallen into this absolute decay. So much so that, is it right in saying that, see, when you think of any game that's set underwater, it's kind of hard to separate it from Bioshock, isn't it?
00:26:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. It's really cornered the yeah destroyed city underwater market, hasn't it? Well, I mean, i was playing a game, and I think I was saying to you at the time, it was called Close to the Sun. Yes, yes. And it's a very, very similar premise, only it's based on what would happen if Nikola Tesla had a big boat and all his inventions worked. and he got really rich and very similar he gets all the world's elites onto his boat I don't know it feels as if it's more of a glorification of Nikola Tesla like a bit of a Nikola Tesla fan fiction no shade to the guy and know he's been long dead but no shade um but you cannot think of a game like that where are oh we've got all of the world's intellectuals at sea it's like yeah Bioshock
00:27:43
Speaker
The other clever thing about it being underwater. So if you're playing, most people probably would, if they're playing it now, going to do the remastered versions. Yeah. You've got the director's commentary that you could pick up along the way, you know, and something that I didn't think of. And as I said, looking at, as we're doing gaming views, and I can say this now because our episode will come out long before this, but tomorrow night I'm recording one on Half-Life. with my co-host and again another iconic game and watch the documentary on that as well and you realize some of the things that they do as programmers for the game one of the things that they say in the bioshock one is that by sending it underwater and seeing the outside you know the ocean outside and fish etc swimming and the rest of the cities they can make what is ultimately a small game feel much bigger because you can look outside and see the remains of the city you can see the ocean and When I thought about that, it's something I've played that game six, seven, eight times, completed it hadn't even thought of that. You know, it's such a clever little thing. Can we talk about the intro for a second?
00:28:40
Speaker
Let's do, yeah. Where, of course, the plane crashes, you wake up underwater, you come up and And it absolutely stunning. If you're playing the remaster, especially, but you come up from the ocean, you see this fire all around you. And something that i noticed, which I'm sure you probably noticed as well, is the fact that the flames are kind of angled to guide the player.
00:29:02
Speaker
So, you know, it's clearly guiding them. It's like, no, no, don't go that way because nothing's programmed up. It just keeps going round and round and eventually you get to the lighthouse, you get to the, as much as we were riffing on it in the intro, the bathysphere and that massive statue of Andrew Ryan, which, trust me, we'll have a lot to say about him. And he's got that big banner saying no gods, no kings, only man. You go into the bathysphere, you go down, you get that amazing speech, which I absolutely love, where he's like, there's a man not entitled to the sweat on his brow. Iconic, yeah.
00:29:41
Speaker
It's just amazing. And he lists through the man in Washington, the man in the church, the man in Moscow. It goes through the entire thing. He goes through basically his enemies or perceived enemies.
00:29:53
Speaker
And then after that, you get the slideshow. And again, that very retro futuristic situation. type way it flashes up you get to see the expansive city of rapture again it's just no pun intended dripping 1940s 1950s decor very great gatsby-esque at times isn't it it's very decadent well that's it and whatever you think about the man and as the game goes on and as you delve into the history you might have various feelings either way but What i love is you just get that impression, and like you said yourself in that opening speech, you can sense not necessarily menace, but the anger that fuelled him. And you know, this is a guy that is so annoyed at the way the world was going. He's created an underwater city, you know, and he's created it for the artists, etc. Yeah, that just tells you all you need to know about Andrew Ryan, right? I mean, considering he has a big statue of himself in the entrance, even before you get into You can imagine that big red panda. Yeah. True, true. I'm going to have to commission that now.
00:30:54
Speaker
He's going to love this. Funny enough for that, one thing that Ken Levine actually said in one of his interviews going on to the characters for a brief moment was the fact that, and this is what he says here, that there are no paragons.
00:31:09
Speaker
There's no Gandalf. There's no Ben Kenobi. All the characters you encounter, everybody is flawed in substantial ways. And you can definitely tell that. I'm not going to lie. 100%. At very, very beginning, immediately you see this absolutely opulent city, this city that is lighting up the ocean floor.
00:31:29
Speaker
You want to see this. You want to see more of it. You're like, okay, I've been in a plane crash. That is the worst thing that's going to happen today. And then when you slowly get pulled in, you see ah poor citizen of Rapture get absolutely skewered by what is known as a splicer. Splice. Splicers are essentially citizens of Rapture that have gone down there with the promise of a better life, and they have got addicted to a particular substance down there called Adam. And Adam is, very, very brief summary, and hear all the Bioshock fans yelling at me. But Adam is essentially this substance that has a lot of healing properties and it also allows them to channel things called plasmids, which is, again, something we'll touch on later. But of course, it's become a very scarce commodity and these splicers are just going around killing one another because they just want another hit. It's very, very tragic, but it's also very terrifying when you see a person with a broken bunny mask looking at you with a big sickle
00:32:34
Speaker
You know, you're like, oh dear, oh my. And know there's probably some symbolism there with the sickle, but again, we'll get into that. And yeah, you just have to essentially fight for your life with nothing more at the beginning than a wrench.
00:32:47
Speaker
And it is a violent start, you're right. The splices, they don't hold back either, do they? No, it's a very visceral. And it's quite interesting because something you'd said there was how it feels like a proper lived-in city.
Splicers and Rapture's Societal Collapse
00:33:01
Speaker
Because as soon as you leave the bathysphere and the splicer runs away for whatever reason... You see all these signs on the ground of some kind of protest, which at the time you don't know it's because of the rapture civil war and things and people turning against the creator, Andrew Ryan. But the game does it so, so well in telling a story without really saying anything. thing because actually reminds me of when I played the old Call of Duty games. This was maybe a last year or the year before and I did an episode with my good friend Adam on it but what I found quite interesting for that was obviously you're in a war-torn France or Germany depending on where the fight's going on and but a lot of the areas felt so liminal. You know, it was like there was a destroyed house, but there was nothing in it. It was just really big. It was really expansive, but there was no furniture or no keepsakes or anything. And I know obviously, because, oh, well, a tank blew up, but it was the same for every single house. And I know that's because of limitations back in 2003 and such, because it's not really fair to compare and contrast.
00:34:11
Speaker
But at the same time, they such a good job of basically showing you this vast city. And again, all the puns intended, hooking you into this story. One of the things I found interesting, especially for the Splicers as a whole, was that apparently... Certainly they went through a whole load of redesigns as you were touching on there. If you go into the museum, which is a fantastic edition, but if you play the remastered edition you can go into the museum and you can see all the different concept art and all the different models that they had for old splicers.
00:34:45
Speaker
Some of them better than others and there's some very choice names which I won't be repeating. on this podcast but really fascinating to see the development process that was one of the things that in that interview they had touched on that the more common splicer villains were initially just these genetic monstrous humanoids that had mutated purposely so there wasn't really a tragedy to it was just oh we're hooked on adam so therefore let's rip our arms off because we don't need them kind of thing it was a bit too over the top there wasn't that angle of humanity
00:35:19
Speaker
I think that's why I was saying a little while ago about why I was pleased that they chose a setting, that it wasn't in space and that they had splices instead of genetic mutations because, as you said, these are citizens. These are inhabitants that have slowly gone deranged from this drug, ultimately. that they take. And apart from the fact that they're trying to rip your throat out and kill you, there is, I think you said it, there is this sadness behind it because you can see that these were at one point people living in a city because they're also repeating when you're wandering around, they're saying normal things almost. They're saying random things at times, but it's almost like they've got that foot in the past, haven't they? And it's just that you can see that it was that fall of the society that's turned them into this, but they're still in that city. They're still almost like it's what it was all those years ago. It's like they're still living that life. Isn't that how you meet your first splicer that you fight? And it's like the shadow on the wall, and it's the women rocking the... Yes, yes.
00:36:12
Speaker
It's like the pram back and forth, yeah. And that terrified me. I mean, granted, it's spooky easy, but... ah That moment just chills you. Brilliant visual. Exactly, yeah, because you just think, oh, it's a poor woman with her baby. And then, of course, she attacks you. You have no choice but to defend yourself. And then when you look in the crib, you find your very first gun, baby's first gun. You don't find a baby in there. You just find her cradling this weapon back. kind of summarises the attitude, I think, for Rapture as a whole, that they're all trying to just survive down here. That is the thing they treasure. They don't really treasure human life. They don't treasure their humanity anymore. And that is just the tragedy of Because of the other things, and I don't know if you came across this when you were researching, but apparently the reason that they were reworked other than obviously they didn't want them to just be generic oh look at me I'm a genetic abomination blur was because apparently Ken Levine took inspiration from something called Project Facade which was i think it was an art project in 2004 and that focused on the untold stories of World War I servicemen who were treated for facial injuries so you You know, I saw all of these people who had been disfigured by very brutal conflicts, as it were, and it partly took that inspiration for the way that the splicers looked.
00:37:42
Speaker
And I thought that was just so heartbreaking, because, I mean, you don't have to listen to me say, oh, war is terrible, absolutely, but, I mean, especially for World War i that was just the absolutely senseless mass slaughter of young men in every single country that was involved. There was no winners in that, as you know, but to draw parallels between the people who have gone out, they've experienced this horrific event, come back, tried to live a normal life, but they've got this permanent reminder on themselves that it they basically says all, that they have been through this and this is the price they paid for that. And it almost feels as if a parallel can be drawn here that these people have come down to Rapture for a life of opulence and, oh, let's be the best compared to what we would be on the surface. Of course, unfortunately, they have had to pay for that. Obviously, not superficially with just their looks, but who they are to the extent that they've almost been turned into these, I would honestly go as far to say, victims of Rapture. Even though they're trying to kill you, of course. Well, this is it. I mean, exactly everything you've said is ultimately, yeah, they may have been the wealthiest and more selective society from above the ocean. But imagine a world where your world is taken away from you. And that's what's happened because, you know, as we'll know in this and even more so in Bioshock 2, almost said Mass Effect 2 there. That's it.
00:39:06
Speaker
That was a couple of months ago. In fact, no, that was last year. Good lord. It was last year, yeah. You know, even in Bioshock 2, there's a few more. This is a city, these are people where their world was taken away from them, and now they've got to fend in this, well, dilapidated, gone-to-pot world now. So I guess they're trying to survive the best way they think they can, right? Absolutely. That's the thing, because dialing it back a bit to give a bit context for Rapture, I can't believe we've spoken to us a long way. Going back to Andrew Ryan, but honestly, there's so much to talk about. With Andrew Ryan, the reason he created Rapture, because again, people listening to this not knowing much about Bioshock must be thinking, that's a bit crazy. But the reason that Andrew Ryan, so initially he was citizen of the Soviet Union, technically pre-Soviet Union, he was born in Russia, which then evolved into the Soviet Union. He saw the brutality of that regime. He escaped with his family to America.
00:40:03
Speaker
He adopted the name Andrew Ryan, kind of similar to another person that we will be touching on. The philosophy, of course, that inspired this game as well. But yeah, he ended up going to America. He became a very wealthy capitalist. He had hundreds of businessmen. ventures, but then of course there was a lot of overreach from certain, let's say interested parties, like my favourite story is when he had this whole forest that he had bought and it was his personal retreat, but then think a group wanted it to be nationalised so it could be a park and be enjoyed by the people. of course took absolute objection to that, so much so that he burned down the forest because the government was going to take it anyway, So you thought, nah, what's the point of me earning all of this if I can't enjoy it for myself? Just as well, this is all set in a fictional world, right? And these are fictional ideas, isn't it? Do you smell smoke as well?
00:41:03
Speaker
ah But yeah, so eventually the straw that breaks the camel's back, as I were, is of course when he sees the employment of nuclear weapons during the Second World War and he realises, oh my god, this is a British society. We have to get of here. So he says, you know what, I'm going to divert funds to this secret project under the sea and then of course he creates rapture and he decides let's get all of the intellectuals of the world without any overreach or anyone kind of plucking their share when they didn't earn it. It's something that you actually touched on earlier and it sounds in theory a good idea but we're going to find out very fast why it's not a good idea. That, of course, leads to, and you mind if I go into the philosophy?
00:41:52
Speaker
No, no, go for it. Because trust me, this is probably going to be a huge, huge chunk. But there was a lot of inspiration, as I was saying, behind this game.
Philosophical Influences and Objectivism in Bioshock
00:42:01
Speaker
In terms of the aesthetic, I think Ken Levine had said that his visit to the Rockefeller Center was a huge thing, especially the big statue of Atlas, I think. the rockefeller center if i remember correctly it was built during the great depression 20s to 30s and nobody wanted to put money into it so the person who was funding it decided you know what i'm gonna put money into this against all odds the old american underdog with too much money kind of story i'm underselling that of course but that was the inspiration in terms of the aesthetic of rapture But there is a good few authors that Ken Levine and the rest of the team took inspiration from, such as Aldous Huxley, who wrote Brave New World, George Orwell, who wrote that indie book 1984. I'm sure you probably haven't heard of it in this day and age. Surely not. Not as an idiom.
00:42:57
Speaker
LAUGHTER Of course, they contributed, not personally, but their work contributed to presenting the dystopian narrative of Bioshock. But the most prolific one, and it's the one I've been spamming you about for all this time, was Ayn Rand, who... is again i was kind of semi-joking there facetiously but she is almost a parallel to the ideals of andrew ryan and apparently if you look at andrew ryan's name you can get an anagram that says we are aynrand which i thought okay that's pretty funny she wrote a lot of them let's say doorstopper books
00:43:36
Speaker
Huge, aren't they? I actually want to get them, but they've been quite pricey when I look for them. See, I was going to listen to it on Audible, and then it was like hundreds of hours, and i thought, how long is this dumbass?
00:43:48
Speaker
but Because she wrote Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, those books. And they are meaty books, you know, who they are absolutely massive. But one of the things that contributed really significantly to this game was this idea of objectivism. Now before I deep dive into this, had you ever heard of this before?
00:44:09
Speaker
Probably not as a specifically named thing. Yeah. Yeah, probably not as a named thing, but probably taking it in through various media, you know, sort of TV or books beforehand. Yeah. Yeah, I'm probably the same, to be honest. It's one of these things that's probably walked by me and I've just been like, oh, right, I'm journalism, yeah. Fair enough. but yeah the core tenant which were of course developed by einran or so is a philosophy that emphasisphas a number of things such as that's honestly fascinated me i just went down the rabbi hole with this one but the idea that there is an objective reality that exists independently of human perception or wishes. So the thing that I always thought of was if you're looking at a tree and it's like if you need firewood done and you say, oh, I see that tree for its wood and I'm hungry and I see the apples on the tree, I go, oh, I see that tree for food. But at the end of the day, the tree is the tree. Our perception of it doesn't really change, well, until you bring out the axe, but that's another story. But the tree exists and yeah, by that extension, the art is an objective of reality to which we subjectively perceive. And the other part is that reason is the primary means of understanding this reality and then that guides our actions as human beings.
00:45:31
Speaker
In particular, and this is where we get to the juicy bit. there is an intense emphasis on individualism so that individuals have the inherent right to their own lives, their liberty and pursuit of happiness. Sound familiar to Andrew Ryan?
00:45:46
Speaker
but The blood, sweat and tears? Is a man not entitled to the sweat in his brow? Of course, according to Ayn Rand, he is. And in terms of capitalism, they believe in a free market system based on voluntary exchange as one of the only moral social systems in place.
00:46:02
Speaker
Again, this idea of self-interest, that rational self-interest as opposed to something like altruism should drive personal fulfillment and by extension it will push everybody forward. So it's this idea that And again, the philosophers will be getting the pitchforks at this, but it sounds as if it's an ideology that believes in the individual rather than sacrificing what you want. To an extent, of course, like I feel as if any society that's governed by entirely selfish people, I'm sure there's a commentary in there somewhere, but entirely selfish people, you know, it's going to be doomed to fail because no one's going to get anything done because they want their own thing. So there's that idea that they want to do their own thing and they don't want any overreach.
00:46:51
Speaker
I feel as if, while it is pretty much in your face, I'm not going to pretend that all of this is very subtle, but I think it does a great job of describing objectivism. But yeah, objectivism just doesn't work, especially in Rapture, does it? Well, this is it. And by the way, I looked up Atlas Shrugged, 1,168 pages. Jesus Christ.
00:47:11
Speaker
Look, I'm not really a political beast, right? So I'm in the shallows when we're having conversations about anything like that. But look, from my view, I think all political types have got their own faults, right, in issues. But yeah, objectivism in a contained space like Rapture, underwater, cut off from everywhere else. I just don't see how that was going to work.
00:47:32
Speaker
Yeah, because, and again, not to identify a particular, you know, ideology or whatever, but you always get that idea of people saying, oh, that society hasn't practiced this true philosophy. And then you actually see smaller groups do it. And when you see it work in smaller groups, you think, well, that's because there's not as many obstacles to overcome. Ironically enough, and I don't know why I'm bringing this up, but you'll probably get a laugh out of it. It reminds me of when I was in university. I can't believe I'm comparing bread rota to Ayn Rand here, but bear with me. When I was in university, I remember myself, my good friend and co-host Andrew, and another person in our flat decided we were going to have this rota where one of us would buy a bread and milk and things. And eventually that led to a couple of other people who were saying, oh we want to get involved in this because it was working so well. And I kid you not, in the same day we had bought bread and milk, half of it was gone already without us touching anything at all. And I'm not comparing the greed of a student to...
00:48:35
Speaker
but but as It does feel as if, obviously, the more people you're going to get involved in this with, ironically enough, individual values, the more issues you're going to come across here, because it's almost a paradox in itself that he wanted a society where people weren't construed. framed by bureaucracy or morals or ethics. It's like as long as you're getting the job done, that is A-OK to Andrew Ryan. But then, of course, when other people pointed out, especially his rival, which we will get on to, Fontaine, who points out very clearly, well, someone has to scrub the toilets. There has to be this almost underclass that serve the upperclass. class. So essentially all you're doing is you're taking society and you're transporting it under the water and you're not having these safeguards in place. There's huge arguments about, oh, whether this system works, whether that doesn't. But at the end of the day, without that entirely, without that system of governance or things like that, you're either a going to repeat what the surface has done, which ironically enough is what Andrew Ryan does. It becomes this paranoid totalitarian dictator, as it were, to send his hired goons, his police squads out there to basically arrest all dissidents. And that's why we later get the civil war between himself and another industrialist called Fontaine, who, of course, he objects to that as well and says, well, there's lots of poor people in Rapture. This is supposed to be a utopia.
00:50:08
Speaker
He's not perfect either. But ah you get this complete conflict. And ironically enough, it's just a powder keg, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. I guess if you take it in isolation, what he was trying to do, you can see, right, yeah, he wants to create a world where people can be free of what they're being told they can or can't do sort above. But like I said, or as Fontaine kindly put it there, yeah, someone's going to clean the toilets, right? So yeah, you can imagine. And ultimately it did unravel really quickly, didn't it? i mean, it's like that scene out of Anchorman where he's like, oh boy, that escalated quickly. Because I think it only lasted a few years before the society fell because of this almost sense of isolationism where eventually it got so bad that Andrew was paranoid. And by Andrew, I mean Andrew Ryan, not my co-host. They got so paranoid to that they shut off contact from the outside world. And of course, Fontaine took advantage of that and he created this contraband industry where he was getting things from the surface and obviously Andrew Ryan did not take too well to that which led to once again the Civil War. It is just absolutely fascinating to see that unfold because again It's one thing to want this idealised society on the surface level. And I think probably younger people as well who have read this have thought, wow, this is a great idea of objectivism that you're working for yourself and everything. There's no overreach. you know what it reminds me of? And this might be a semi-controversial point. You know k crypto bros?
00:51:41
Speaker
Oh, yeah. It reminds me of that, where technically, you know, it's all on the blockchain and everything, and oh, we don't need any government interference and things. But then as soon as some hacker reaches into their wallet and takes all their money, suddenly they're yelling at the FBI, yelling at the police saying, they stole my money, get it back. And it's like, well, you decided to, and again, I'm not advocating for anyone to get stolen off of, regardless of who they are, but... yeah it's like you Can't expect to live outside of this society, this system, and then, you know, expect help. How wonderfully opposite. I love that. You're comparing blockchain to rapture. i love that.
00:52:20
Speaker
yeah It's so modern, isn't it? If we did this episode 10 years ago, that wouldn't be a thing. Yeah. ah But that is the thing, though. It's like this system outside of any government reach and things, because it's exactly what Ryan says. I think it's his first speech to you. Well, sorry, his second speech directly to you. And I just, i love the bluntness of him, where he's like, which one of the bitches sent you, the KJB wolves or the American jackal? And, you know, he goes on and then he just sounds like an utterly, I mean, obviously he's mad. He built a city under the ocean, for God's sake.
00:52:54
Speaker
But that's the thing, they do portray him really well as that overarching villain. He's just so angry right from the get go. Right. And all I will say is he's one of the villains. Right. But the voice messages you get from him get increasingly more aggressive, increasingly more kind of visceral, don't they? And demeaning ultimately the way he's talking to you. Yeah, because he has no regard for you whatsoever. He just wants to know why you're here, because obviously nobody knew should be in Rapture. And considering you survive some of the weirdest stuff in this game, you must be thinking, holy hell, it's Jack Bourne, you know? Who is this person? Yeah, and Andrew Ryan is alluding to that, isn't he? keeps saying throughout, almost like, are you not amazed by the set of coincidences, the set of circumstances that brought you here? And he repeats that line, doesn't he, a number of times, especially in that famous scene, know a man chooses slave of base, because ultimately you've landed in this world, and you know you are just blindly following this Atlas chap, aren't you? That is such an interesting dynamic as well. Because the thing is about this game is that we talked so a lot about the splicers there who are kind of the primary antagonists that attack you. You know, they're the grunts and things. They're the ones you have to kind of weave in and out. You've got Andrew Ryan twiddling his moustache in the background and everything. And then you've got other people who are also kind of playing the system. And it goes back to that Ken Levine quote, that There's no Ben Kenobi in this, there's no Gandalf, there's not any paragon of virtue down here, there's no one who says, oh, I'm the righteous one, you know, everybody is down there for their own selfish reasons, whether that is to have a better life for themselves, whether that is to be the master of their crafts, and trust me, we meet a lot of them, doesn't Sadly, we have Sander Cohen, who is just an absolute psychotic thespian who wants you to basically hunt down victims of his and then snap a pic to show him.
Fort Frolic and Moral Dilemmas
00:54:56
Speaker
And then he can put that up as his magnum opus, which is absolutely horrifying. It is very...
00:55:01
Speaker
veil it is nasty it is but for me please don't read into this but it is one of the better missions of the game i think because yeah of that because there is that now i'm gonna say character now don't come at me but what i mean is it again everything else is quite as i said a lot of story is told through radio messages the audio logs etc here you've got someone who is almost is still enjoying is reveling being part of this or probably almost more so now it feels like he's enjoying it now in this kind of state and yeah it is very twisted but there's an element of that character being almost larger than life and yeah I found that to be one of the well it's definitely one of the more memorable elements of the game but I think it comes at the right time as well and as you said you've got to take pictures you've got to kill his not his enemies I think they were his proteges weren't they you've got to kill them take a picture and put it up on the board if you extrapolate it to the nth degree it's like what is art now you know anything can be art for him art is pictures of his dead at foes you know which is terrible really but in that game it fits so well doesn't it i completely agree with you there a hundred percent but the worst bit about it is he gamifies the process you know it's like sander cohen says yeah go kill these people and if you do it i'll give you a wee treat and you get things like the crossbow and certain items and it's absolutely horrifying because again this is a game this is a shooter game and a tech Yeah.
00:56:35
Speaker
picture of them hanging it up in the wall and there's a kind of twistediness for that that he is seeing beauty and this world this society that essentially crumbling all around him yeah And later on, I think he can go up to his apartment and things, and he's still living as if he is this artist.
00:56:55
Speaker
As if he's, you know, the violin players on the Titanic. Yeah, he's loving it. He's still loving it. Yeah, he's reveling in it. Fort Frolic is honestly, and that could be a whole episode in itself, but Fort Frolic is just one of the pinnacles of game design. It is absolutely incredible the different areas that it takes you and you having to fight your way through. And again, you're doing it for selfish reasons as well, because you have to fight to survive and get to the next level. But ironically enough, there is another level of isolation there because this is where your connection to Atlas is severed so the very beginning you get a radio and Atlas is character that guides you through the game says oh be careful with them be careful with that and then you get cut off by the only person who's helping you at this point Goff Goff and so then you get introduced to Sander Cohen and his pantomime of peril as it completely off the wall unhinged
00:57:54
Speaker
See, I didn't know until I was looking into it actually last night that you can actually let him live. I didn't know that because I think I've always killed him at the end of that mission. But yeah, you can let him live or meet him in his apartment. Now, the funny thing is, so because I've played it so many times, I've got the majority of the achievements that I'm going to get. I did get one on this playthrough and I can't believe I've never done it before. But yeah, as we've said, you get a camera in the game and you have to take pictures of his foes and put them up on this board i took a picture of him after i killed him and you get an achievement for that something like ironic or irony and i thought that's a really funny achievement name but yeah i can't believe i'd never done that before as part of the game i remember i was just morbidly curious i killed him to see what the prize was you know at the very end and it's like oh you can take this prize and to be honest from what remember it wasn't worth it so i was just like right okay i'll reload the save let him live which again says a lot about me as a player.
00:58:50
Speaker
I was like, yeah, it's not worth it. Let him go. And then I moved on with the game. But the whole Sander Cohen mission, though, goes back to what you were saying about is there any innocent characters in the game? Because even your character, you've just crash landed, right? And you're blindly following this atlas. And, you know, you are now killing people because someone else is telling you to kill them. And you're gladly doing that because you've got to get to the next bit, you know, all under the thing that you're trying to help the atlas find his family. Now, ultimately, that makes you as a character... And I know there are layers to why you're doing that, which we'll come on to. But, you know, you can't say your character is without fault. guess the only ones really have got to be the Little Sisters, right? Yeah, i would say so. The Big Daddies? remember what you say. Yeah, I would say the Little Sisters, probably. and thank you for that, because that is a perfect segue to go on to talking about these. Yeah, the Little Sisters. Sisters are super, super interesting, see especially for the development of the game and behind the scenes, because I think that when they were developing the game, they always wanted the big daddies in the game, or rather, i think they named them protectors.
00:59:55
Speaker
So they basically, they wanted a protector and they wanted a gatherer. So the gatherers would be the ones who would gather Adam from dead bodies and things within Rapture, and the protectors, as the name suggests, would protect these gatherers. Now, what I found hilarious was that while it was always going to be the guy in the diving suit and everything, and that went through several iterations, which I think they reused eventually for Bioshock 2, because that is very Big Daddy heavy, which is a phrase I never thought I'd use. Please don't Google that. Clip that. you going to clip that?
01:00:32
Speaker
I'd rather you'd end, Dan. But yeah, the fact was that they were always relatively consistent in their designs. Little sisters, on the other hand, were not always little sisters. So as I said, they were more... Yes, yes. Sorry, yes, I know where you're going with this. Sorry, yes. First they began, this is sea slugs, which is where Adam comes from in the narrative. The reason they found out was because there was a diver who injured his hand, and then a sea slug ended up, don't know, attaching itself onto his hand, and then the injuries completely healed. So they're like, oh my god, look at these sea slugs, let's harvest them for their Adam. Now, initially they were going to be the gatherers and officers, Obviously, if you look at a little girl and you look at a sea slug, you're going to step on the slug. You are not going to think twice about stepping on a sea slug, probably. And that was one of the reasons they wanted them to have a bit more empathy because they didn't have eyes or... mean, no offence to all the slugs listening, but...
01:01:33
Speaker
ah They didn't have any sympathetic qualities, so they went back to the board, and yeah, there were some wild changes. So initially they tried crabs, they tried monkeys, and you know the other one? Have you heard of the last one that they proposed? It was partly a dog in a wheelchair. Oh, man. Oh, come on.
01:01:52
Speaker
It was like paws at the front, like the front legs were working, but the back paws were in one of the doggy kind of wheelchairs. Some Silent Hill secret ending. Come on. characterization there isn't it actually sure it reminds me of seen i think it's far cry 6 where there's like yeah it's like a sausage dog with that exact same thing that's all i can think of when i think of this concept but yeah although obviously i wouldn't be harming any of these dogs i do agree with the developers when they said yeah i proposed it i regretted it Let's move on. So eventually they landed on Little Sisters and the lower explanation is because that they found that Adam bonded itself with young girls quite well.
01:02:35
Speaker
What ended up happening was they took all of these children and it's so damn tragic because there's a scene later on, and again it links back to that idea of invulnerability. Yeah.
01:02:53
Speaker
and you hear about them talking about the young ghetto i think it's misha or masha and she has been completely turned into one of these monsters but their words not mine but completely different because obviously although the game does look a wee bit janky even when they turn back to normal because sometimes i look down at them and they look like something out of alice in wonderland and i'm like yeah please climb in the vent and don't look at me again but it's that idea of obviously innocence and you wouldn't want to hurt them you have to have this moral dilemma yeah and this leads me on to one of my criticisms i think of the game
01:03:31
Speaker
I think I'm going to agree with you on this, but sort of go on. So the sea slugs did stay because if I write they had the sea slugs were basically weren't they inserted or they were merged with the little sisters
Gameplay Mechanics: Plasmids and Choices
01:03:42
Speaker
weren't they? Yeah. think they had the sea slug inside them. I mean the whole little sister thing is just tragic as well. There's a lot of conditioning, a lot of brainwashing because they see rapture as it was, don't they? So somebody might look at it and say why is the little girl just running around all this death destruction without any issue but they're seeing the world as it was so they see the splicers as normal inhabitants they see the dead splicers as angels don't they the blood as petals I think I read so it's an incredible backstory to those as well but my criticism is you find these little sisters roaming around with the big daddies and you can leave them alone right I think you're forced
01:04:17
Speaker
for the first one to intervene and the clever mechanic what i do like is that the big daddy won't attack you if you leave him or the little sister alone but the minute you go for the little sister or the big daddy they'll attack and then when you've destroyed the big daddy you've got an option to rescue the little sister so I think one of the characters Tenenbaum has given you a plasmid where you can extract the sea slug and effectively kind of return them to normal although they still have a bit of their conditioning left or harvest them now two things if you harvest them you get more of the Adam back you get better rewards effectively but I would say two things there one is the fact that they've made it like a little girl like what would we say about six years old eight years old something like that yeah would say so well I mean it and probably some people will and I'll probably do it to see what happens you're not well I think most people are going to find it a lot harder to select the harvest option right So one, are they really giving people a moral dilemma there? It feels quite heavy handed. The second thing I would say is also I don't think it's that much of a hit to take the rescue option anyway, because I think the difference in rewards isn't that great. So again, it feels like almost they've made it an easier option. for someone to do the right thing so if they were trying to give somebody a real moral dilemma about do they save or kill this little child I don't know whether it was the fact that maybe they didn't want to court controversy or they do you see i mean I think the risk reward isn't worth I think harvesting them to save your moral you know your your sanity if you're really caught in between two minds I'm really glad you brought up this point because I am a hundred percent with you there
01:05:52
Speaker
When I was playing it, and obviously I chose the moral option of saving them and everything, but I'm totally with you there. There's not much difference. I remember hearing that at the time, that you could either save these little sisters, you would get less reward for it, as opposed to if you... harvest them and you know oh you get more adam and for anyone who doesn't know adam is basically the gameplay equivalent of currency that you can essentially use to upgrade your basically superpowers and this is something we haven't really touched much on yet we're hour and we haven't talked about the powers yet
01:06:29
Speaker
ah So basically, you get these things called plasmids, and essentially they are abilities that the character that you're playing as and other characters as well can use. So things like they can shoot fire out their hands, or ice, or bees at one point, very weird choice. But in order to make them more powerful, you have to, well, in the words of another person I've heard before, you have to speculate to accumulate. Yeah.
01:06:56
Speaker
have to put your money in, or rather your Adam, before you get a return on it. And it's interesting the way they did that, because you can't just pick up regular money that's saved for if you want to buy bullets and things and upgrades, but for your plasmids. As you were saying, you have to decide whether you're going to save these little girls or you're going to harvest the slug out of them and get more. But the problem I have after replaying it in this year is, and it's something that other people have brought up, is I don't think the game goes far enough with it. I can't. kind of wish that other than the bad ending that you get which trust me it's a bad ending in more than one way because I don't believe for a fact the fact that splicers will get control of nuclear weapons but it's another thing the bad ending is ridiculous yeah I have done that and this is something I'm ashamed of for that I remember at the time i watched
01:07:49
Speaker
a playthrough of Bioshock and remember watching the bad ending and you only get this ending if you don't save the Little Sisters where you release all these bathyspheres up to the surface and all the splicers attack everyone and then you get control of this nuclear warhead or something from a submarine. I genuinely thought initially that those people coming out the bathysphere were the Little Sisters. I don't know why but I thought they were. I'm like, oh, they're all grown up. Great. But no, it turns out it's just regular splicers. It's really silly. I don't think it's a great ending. And again, even for Bioshock, it doesn't make sense. But I just wish that there was more of a penalty. And that sounds so ridiculous, me asking for more punishment in this game. But I really wish that there was more of a... consequence for it well this is it i think if the developers were trying to throw a moral quandary your way that didn't quite work because for example and i'm going to mention it again mass effect yes i did but mass effect generally i play the paragon playthrough but the renegade decisions i will do some along the way because they feel right for a commander of a spaceship against you know these battling odds this race against time save all these races there whereas the choice where it boils down to do rescue or harvest
01:09:03
Speaker
a little child it just is too too much of a sledgehammer smashing a walnut right it's too in your face yeah it's kind of like what spec ops the line did a couple of years later where it's like oh my god you bombed those innocent civilians and it's like well you kind of railroaded me into this decision you know initially up until that point you're like yeah yeah oh of course I thought but then it's like there's no other way to get forward unless I mean I'm not accepting that oh you could have put the game down it's like that's not a good business model for a video game come on but there was no other path you could have taken him unlike David Cage which seems to have a million paths in his game but again that's another model con drain itself although it is very heavy-handed and i feel as if there are some very clever critiques and a lot of nuance but for the bits that really don't land like that sometimes they really don't land and it is a shame because in a world that we've said is so well crafted and some of the subtler things in it yeah that just feels quite out of place i mean i love the little sister big daddy mechanic in the game like i said i love the fact that you know you leave them be you're fine you can go around and you can often stumble upon enemies splices i think because they've attacked the little girl in battles with the big daddies i love all that it's just yeah that one point of it didn't stick the landing although ill have to say the one plasmid and i don't know how you felt about this that i was really uncomfortable with as soon as i realized the implications of it was the hypnosis plasmid with the big daddies did you ever use that one or you can get them to fight for you yeah i used it very rarely yeah yeah because it's like oh you can get big daddies to fight for you and it's like yeah great but then you can't really deal with the little sisters because their big daddy's still there so essentially you've hypnotized this and again this is a massive plot point for bioshock 2 that basically kickstarts the whole game but you know i think that made it worse when i thought back on it but Yeah, you're basically hypnotising these Big Daddies who, they are just doing their job as protectors. As silly as the name Big Daddy is, because you get alternative Big Daddy models, I think they're called Rosies. Rosie. Rosie, yeah. and they're the ones with two hands they're not the ones with the big drill and they are terrifying either way of both of them i especially the one with the big drill the bouncer big daddies they're roar and things i think they're meant to imitate like a whale call it's definitely like a whale sound because you can hear them a mile off yeah Oh, it is terrifying. It's like, you know that scene in Terminator 2 where Sarah Connor's running around the corner, she thinks she's free, and then the Terminator walks around the corner and she runs back. That was me for the big daddies. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to the next part of the level. No, I'm not. That's a big daddy.
01:11:50
Speaker
It's like, nope nope, nope, nope, thank you. And again, you're right, they don't really target you on sight, which I love. And it gives you time to, again, formulate this plan of, okay, if I am going to attack them, how am I going to do this because my bullets are doing diddly squat against them? And that is something that, going on to the gameplay side of it, I absolutely love about this game. that There's a lot of environmental things that you can use to take advantage. advantage of it so you can use the plasmids to basically deal more damage so for example there's obviously a lot of areas that have leaked and there's a lot of puddles everywhere very deep puddles somewhere and you lure an enemy in there you can use an electric plasmid and you can electrocute them in the water if you see an oil slick you can click your fingers and just basically burn whoever's standing on it alive horrific but very cool idea Yeah, exactly. It's absolutely horrifying, obviously, to see and to do, but at the same time, you've got to respect it from a gameplay side. You're like, oh, that is really, really cool. There's all these different kinds of ways that you can dispatch enemies and essentially use your skills. The only downside, and it's not something i really thought about until i played the second one is that you can't really use them at the same time no you can't freeze someone it's basically like you can freeze someone then you have to reach into your backpack and get the wrench and then weather them till they smash but yeah you can't do will that was my number one things i didn't like and do you know the funny thing is i remember and again i'm going to mention gaming views my co-host there dan i remember i was working with him at the time
01:13:27
Speaker
And we were talking about it even back then. that I remember us seeing it as a criticism back then that you couldn't dual wield because Bioshock 2 you definitely can. So you can use your plasmid and the the weapon at the same time. It just feels, especially nowadays if you're playing it, it just feels that little bit clunky, doesn't it?
01:13:44
Speaker
Yeah, I still think it holds up. Don't get me wrong, but yes, when you play the games that come after it, especially 2, I think the story for the second one isn't as strong because it heavily depends on the first game. But in terms of gameplay, is miles ahead, especially for, and this is another controversial take here, our what's new? Haha. But the hacking mechanic? Yeah. Yes.
01:14:10
Speaker
I've got to ask. See, personally, I actually did not mind them. I definitely minded the ones that went far too fast for my liking. Yeah, so in the first game, so if you haven't played it, it's, again, I mentioned this online, it's like the game called Pipes. There used to be a game called Pipes and it was a game in itself. i remember on my Amiga, I had a game that that was the core concept of the game so yeah you had to basically fluids starts coming out of a pipe doesn't it you've got to build a route through to the well let's say exit but the destination part where the outlet's got to go but you've got to uncover the right pieces and then obstacles will appear and you've got to work the pipe around that i think it's a brilliant and it's a fun little game but like you said there are some which are just impossible right Oh, absolutely. Well, unless you get the tonics, which is another thing, right? The plasmas and the tonics that helps with the hacking. But yeah, it's a fun little diversion. I like that. Yeah, yeah because touching on what you said there, the tonics in the game, you can tell that was definitely a leftover, well, not leftover, but probably leftover from the concept of this potentially being an RPG, you know, because as you said, you can use tonics. Passives, aren't they? Yeah. Yeah, you can use them to basically buff your character, whether it's more damage dealt with the wrench or you want your guns to be more effective against certain people. And don't get me wrong, you can still do that with the camera. As you were saying, if you take a picture of someone, then it gives you bonuses against that particular type of character, which honestly, it made me feel like Peter Parker.
01:15:41
Speaker
I was like running around just snapping pictures of Spider Splicer over here. Yeah. Just Andrew Dygut, bring me more pictures of... But you see, the the camera bit, I like the idea of it. I like what they were trying to do there. So yeah, you can take a picture, get weakness.
01:15:57
Speaker
But I didn't like it. Going back to it now, I probably didn't see it as an issue when I first played it first couple of times. But now it's, as you said, especially because the whole not-jewelwieldy, you've got to get the camera, you've got to take the picture, then you've got to change to your weapon, and and then you've got to single-wield deplasmid in the weapon. And it just now, in a game that generally is quite fast and smooth in the battles, it just adds that extra delay, doesn't it? Yeah, and especially if you're trying to outrun those turrets, because their whistle is ingrained good re and my mind right now. When you hear them buzzing overhead and you're like, oh my god. Usually i would just smack them out the air and then try hack them as best I could. And you know, you'd have an army of them just following you like, woohoo!
01:16:39
Speaker
yes Yes, let's go! Sadly, I couldn't take it to the final battle, but yeah, there's definitely a clunkiness to the game, and I'm not saying that is an overly detraction from the game, because it is made in 2007, the initial development was 2002, so there's a lot of things that would have changed between then, but at the same time, it did kind Kind of feel as if it was quite, again, clunky, but I'm glad that they found a footing for the second game. Yeah. That they decided, oh, we're going to, like, mutual wield and make it bit more faster paced. And that game has its issues as well, of course, what game doesn't. But, yeah, you're right. And it's quite bad when the wrench is one of the best weapons. in the game because that is the very first weapon that's supposed to be the desperate measures weapon but when you can actually upgrade it and then smack big daddies in the backside with it you're like hmm now this is this is an interesting weapon do more damage than my tommy gun what the hell and the other thing is you know and this time around okay i did play on easy level so there's probably an element that but you can get through the whole game where i got through the whole game just using the electric and the fire plasmid now yes there's a few times where it forces you to use the other ones like telekinesis etc but generally like you said with those the environmental water and the oil bits those two plasmids alone can be extremely powerful and as i said get you through the game Ironically, with the themes of this game, and this leads me on to my next kind of mild criticism, is how Ken Levine said that he doesn't like the idea of cutscenes in games.
01:18:20
Speaker
He very much believes that, oh, as the player, you should be involved in the events, you should be free. The beginning and the end, okay, that's fair play. You're setting up the story. You don't really have to have a cut scene. i know Half-Life 2 kind of has that, where it's mainly told through you navigating the city. But at the same time, there's a lot of moments where, as you said, it's like, oh, you have to take this, especially the fire plasmid, because later on you get stuck in basically an industrial freezer and you have to thaw your way out. And I think that's one of the Sander Cohen missions. It is. I think that's where it starts, yeah. Yeah, you have to melt the people and triangle through. I mean, it's a cool idea, but it's like you can't progress the game without doing those things. And one of the things that really baffled me was when there's certain elements where it's like, oh, you're playing the game. haha And it's like, well, no, not really, because basically what you've done is you've trapped me in a room and you're not really letting me interact. with this bit. For example, when, spoilers, you come across where Atlas's family is and then they blow up the bathysphere with them in it and it's like, oh no, but you're stuck in the VIP box looking down. Should I be grabbing popcorn being like, oh no, they're not.
01:19:35
Speaker
but but think Yeah, and you get a couple other moments like that as well, like when Andrew Ryan does his whole speech about, who are you, really? And, you know, he goes back and forth. Again, I don't think it's bad, and it's not really something I thought of until I made a big deal about, oh, this is going to be very hands-on, and there's some moments where you do kind of feel railroaded into doing that, and don't get me wrong, I think sometimes that's what has to happen. Because I'll tell you one thing, the one area I hate with a passion in this game, and I probably got lost more times than I can count, was Arcadia, where the plants and trees are. Oh, yes, yeah, I thought you were going say something else. That's why I hesitated. But yeah, I agree with you. For me, there were two bits that I didn't particularly like. One is definitely Arcadia. The other one for me was i didn't like the bit where you've got to get the Big Daddy outfits. Yes, uh-huh. Because there were too many bits, like you've got to find X amount of pheromones and they could be anywhere. And it just meant a lot of going backwards and forwards, back and forwards. And I didn't like that. But yeah, I'm absolutely with you on Arcadia, yeah. This isn't the first time anybody said this about the game, but I felt after this strong intro and obviously the world building that goes around it, it's quite repetitive at times, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, go with that. Especially in terms of the objectives and going back and forth, and I feel as if, ironically enough, you know that statue Atlas shrugged holding the world on his back?
01:21:02
Speaker
That is the perfect metaphor. Atlas, of course, being the story, the characterisation, the setting, all of that holding up in the gameplay. Which is ironic because usually it's the opposite, isn't it? It's like, oh, it's a fun game. A bit like Doom. Really fun gameplay. Pretty weak story. Because, well, there's a guy killing demons from hell.
01:21:21
Speaker
You don't really need more than that to have fun. But in this, it's definitely the story, isn't it, that's holding up this. Because i think without it, would you say know this sounds really weird to say because obviously plucking out rapture would just make it an entirely different game but see without such a strong story do you think this game would have held up as well in the long term probably not but as i said at the start it is still a solid game in its own right i think the splices but i guess if you're not sitting in rapture you don't have the splices so i guess the short answer would be no it wouldn't be
01:21:56
Speaker
because I think everything we've said is a positive has come from the fact it's in Rapture and what that stands for. Because I do agree with you, I think the gameplay is solid, but going back to what we're saying, it is quite retrospectively, it's clunky. It's not the worst stuff I've ever seen. It doesn't kill my enjoyment of the game. I'll tell you what killed my enjoyment of the game was whenever when I was playing the remake on the PC and it decided to crash. Yeah, I said to you, didn't I? Yeah. The first two especially have been very glitchy on the Xbox as well. Yeah, I think that's a prominent issue with the remaster, at least on the PC. I don't know why though.
01:22:33
Speaker
It only happened once or twice to me on the PC, but for Bioshock 2, that was a nightmare. It just
Character Analysis and Storytelling Power
01:22:40
Speaker
kept crashing constantly. I completed it and everything, but that was a nightmare because I was sweating. I was like, how much more do I have to play? again oh god I don't want to go back but yeah although it's clunky I still think the gameplay as a whole holds up I wouldn't necessarily call it a fun I mean it is a fun experience but it's not a game I would constantly go back to and be like woohoo because I know that I'm gonna have to go through Arcadia again I know I'm gonna have to find the big daddy suit I mean fighting to Fort Frolic that's probably worth it What I would say is, so I've played it a number of times, but it is because the story. But I think the first time you would play it, I think you enjoy the ride because it is new. And, you know, all of a sudden, well, I've got become a big daddy that I've been fighting them in the whole game. Right. And so yeah I think. The first time you go through it, I think it's fine. It's when you then go back to it because you know what you have to do and then you're just then doing it to get to the next story a bit because I think you said it's not like a Doom or it's not like a Call of Duty where it stands solely alone on the gun plays. There's not massive, massive set pieces. So you're just doing it to get to that next story beat and it's like, oh yeah, I've gone around this corner again. I'm in this garden bit again. I've seen that plant. I'm sure I've seen that plant a number of times already. And I think so from my mind, yes, I'm calling it in negative, but it's probably only because I've done it so many times. And again, considering all the positives we have brought up for this game, it's actually amazing how that probably the biggest negative. Yeah, i mean, I've got couple. Should just say? These were me being picky. These were me looking for it. So I said the dual wield. I've said some of the bits were frustrating. Oh, because they repeated, don't know When you have to build the EMP bomb at the end, it feels yeah very similar. The harvest save mechanic, I've said, is just not very well done. It's not that it's a criticism, but it could have been better. But the other one, and this is going to be a really silly one, but those splicers aren't half noisy. When you're playing it, the screaming and the shouting they do.
01:24:36
Speaker
and And the babbling they do, it can be quite distracting. Oh, 100%. mean, there's people on the night shift and they're just going, they just be quiet for God's sake? Yeah, and I'm trying to play the game. Just calm down. And the only other one is I think the final boss battle probably isn't the greatest. Yeah, we'll definitely touch on that because 100% agree with you. It's one of the least Bioshock elements of Bioshock, which sounds so weird, but... It reminds me, again, God, I'm sorry to talk about Mass Effect, but it reminds me of the Human Reaper battle in a way. Yeah. has For me, it's got similar vibes. Yeah, because it's one of these things that you don't really expect, and then when you get to the final boss, you're like, oh yeah oh, that's what we're fighting now, this lovely specimen. Oh, right, okay, okay, right, great, great. Are you sure? Are you sure?
01:25:27
Speaker
Mr. Levine, did you not miss a step in this? No, no. No, it's really, really weird. But yeah, I feel as if we have to take the proverbial plasmid gloves off here, because as we were saying before, as soon as you hit Rapture, you are met with, although a beautiful city, of course, in the outset, you're met with nothing but hostility through and through. You're met with...
01:25:49
Speaker
Nicers that want to kill you, drones that want to gun you down. Everyone who wants to help you is either dead or missing in action in the middle of the ocean. It is a harsh and an almost borderline inhospitable environment, not just because it's underwater, but because everything is trying to kill you, from big daddies, as we said, to crazed thespians. I mean, even And the first, and this is someone I wanted to really touch on, is J.S.
01:26:16
Speaker
Steinman. Oh, sorry, Dr. J.S. Steinman. A plastic surgeon who... Oh, yes, yes. Oh, my God. He freaked to me out. See, as soon as I first got to his bit, and I love his voice actor, by the way, when he first sees you and he says you're ugly, but he doesn't just go, oh, you're ugly, you know, and then he tries to shoot you. He makes a point of He drives it in and he goes, you're ugly, ugly. And then he just shoots at you. And it's like, wow, way to drive that knife into me. Thank you. Cheers, mate.
01:26:46
Speaker
And again, that's a perfect example of the versatility of the combat where you can lure them down into the water and electrocute them. You can use the oil slick or you can just get the good old fashioned iron on your hip and just blast them away. Yeah. probably deserves because the audios are chilling for him where you know it's women who primarily go to him and they want to you know they want to look beautiful in rapture and then of course he has some very interesting and they use that very loosely interesting ideas about beauty you know oh why do humans have to have two arms two legs oh what about these crazy different things i can do with them know, you practically meet him when he's stabbing a body that I think is still alive. Well, definitely not alive by the time he's finished with them.
01:27:32
Speaker
And it is horrific. He is probably one of the best villains to kickstart your descent into Rapture because... again it shows someone who is very superficial wrapped up in their own world it basically summarizes all of the people that you're going to meet later on that they are all so engrossed in this idea of individualism and their own ideals that they're not really seeing the bigger picture and there's only one other character that technically changes for the better whereas the others sadly don't later on of course you have sander cohen who we talked about fantastic and you've got all these different ones but one that i want to touch on before we get to the meat of the villain discussion of course is dr tannenbaum who fascinating character and i said this to you and you said what was a that's a word for it yes that's that's a word definitely yeah
01:28:25
Speaker
Yeah, Tannenbaum is just such an interesting character to delve into, because again, if you look at it on the surface level, she is just a scientist who was brought in by Andrew Ryan, and oh, she's just working on the Little Sister project with...
01:28:42
Speaker
a another doctor who you don't really meet in this game called Dr. Yi Suchong and they both managed to implant the Adam sea slug into the little sisters and that kickstarts that whole thing. But if you read into a character more in it, is horrific that she was a victim of the Nazi regime in the 1930s and she eventually got put in a concentration camp and she managed to, can't believe I'm saying it like this, but prove her worth as it were, to them, and she is very scientifically minded to the extent that she doesn't really care as long as she gets the outcome she wants.
01:29:26
Speaker
She's very objectively minded, and one of the things that Ken Levine brought up as well in another interview with I think Game Informer was that, and again, this is something that isn't totally explicitly in the games, is that she also has autism.
01:29:42
Speaker
The thing about that is, and the reason I bring it up is, the development team, the writers and such, they could have easily just broken Tannenbaum to these stereotypes that, oh, shit. she's Jewish, she was persecuted, she has autism. You could have easily had such a one-dimensional character there and said, oh, this is what makes up this person. and she created the Little Sisters. Oh, it's evil. But there is such a complacency complexity to her there that it explains that she is someone who is again as I said objectively driven she wants to get the results and I think that's probably why Andrew Ryan who maybe not by the same regime of course but as someone who was also persecuted before he left the Soviet Union to America is that he wants somebody like that to come to rapture to say right okay we're going to create this absolute utopia under the sea.
01:30:38
Speaker
And of course, that obviously isn't what happens. But what is fascinating is, Tannenbaum is one of the few that actually develops a conscience. And you know, she is the one that does a complete 180, despite the fact that she has came there purely for her own self-interest, to say, yep, sea slug plus little girl, shove them together. who cares about the parents? Who cares about the emotional fallout? I don't care. Let's get those results, baby. Let's go. Come on. That's the thing, because all you get in the game is she constantly says, you know, she alludes to making her tones for what she's done and she can't make her tones for what she's done, but she's just trying to do the right thing now. But it's, as you said, and again, I'll put my hands up. I only really found this out now when I was doing research for this episode was the backstory to her. And I was like, wow, again, it's just that extra layer, if you want it, of that exposition for this game, which I think is incredible.
01:31:31
Speaker
Because it's an interesting dynamic that they portray here that Tannenbaum is one of these characters that has, for the most part, as we know, as a character, been oppressed all her life. And then she rises to a position where she has the power, if that makes sense. And again, it's the same with Andrew Ryan. And i think is like a core theme isn't it it's that idea of people who either have literally been persecuted or feel as if they have been persecuted by the societies they come from and they decide that we are going to try and make something better than what has been left on the surface we don't want to live in this world of bloodshed of persecution of this absolute horror up there, but ironically enough, by they themselves going to this place without regulation, they have essentially created a society that has replicated this, but just in a worse manner, you know, because you've got Andrew Ryan's secret police going on, you've got them all skewered, essentially, outside of his office as a warning. That is not, and this might sound like the biggest water is wet statement of this episode, So that is not something an intellectual does. That is something severely barbaric. And I think they make a point of that, don't they? That it's a mixture of people like journalists and political dissidents. It's not just people who are physically fighting him. It's people who Andrew Ryan deems as against him. And that is the most dangerous thing. That is someone who, for all his life, although he has... accumulated his own success in life is now on the back foot that he thinks, I'm going to have to do what I've been basically pit against.
01:33:15
Speaker
And it's the same with Tannenbaum that, oh, she's in a position where she can essentially follow her dreams of science, as it were, you know, without restrictions, without ethical dilemmas, which is something we will shortly be touching on. But, you know, she deals with a lot of that and It's basically a warning story, isn't it, to the need, I suppose, for certain kind of checks being in place. Because without it, that is, I mean, for me personally, don't know how you feel, but it feels as if that is the core reason that Rapture fell, because there wasn't any checks or real equality in place. Because despite the fact Andrew Ryan said, this is going to be a utopia, it's going to be a paradise, it's not really, is it? He's put himself as the figurehead of the society. enjoy that's a note i've got so if we go right back to the start the whole thing was he was creating a world free from the surface you know free from constraint and people could do what they want but then he's made himself almost like the king of it which always feels against what he's trying to say you know that big stature of him then as he said as soon as something happens he doesn't like he's starting to put rules in place so it quickly you know it's almost like it's my ball i'm going to take it away if you don't listen to me kind of thing it's a rapid rapid downfall anyway let's say that Oh, 100%. And that, of course, leads to, as we were saying before, the civil war between Fontaine versus Andrew Ryan. And that is something that is fascinating to me as well. And it's not something I really thought about until I went back and looked into the game in a bit more depth. But you see later on there's things that Fontaine Futuristics, which is the rival company, as it were, to Andrew Ryan's industries, at least on the surface seems a lot more altruistic compared to the ideals that Andrew Ryan has set out because, you know, you have Fontaine's home for the poor, you have got all these charitable endeavours and we know why he does it because he wants to rally people to his side and it goes back to again something we said earlier that he's showing a society that although it's a utopia it can't really survive because it has to exploit some kind of labour some kind of of underclass
01:35:32
Speaker
And you know, who would want to live in a utopia but not be part of the utopia? And you know, you've got hundreds of places within Rapture that are just complete slums. I think the main one is Apollo Square, which is where the lower class housing is, and then it's turned into an internment camp later on. There's just loads of places that you think, wow, this place is horrible. And now obviously, if the dead bodies didn't give it away...
01:36:00
Speaker
It's the fact that the ones at the top of the chain believe in this ideal that this is paradise. But that actually reminds me of a very particular quote from Star Trek Deep Space Nine, where one of the main characters, Siskel, complains that a lot of his superiors who are back on Earth, they are saying how, oh, you have to do things this way, that way, because it's the Federation way, it's love, peace, and flowers, all as i were yeah and he says something that has impacted me in more ways than you can imagine he says something like the reason that they're saying that is because they live in paradise and it's so easy to be a saint in paradise yeah there you go and he lives on the fringes of this space that is very hostile we deal with alien threats every week because it's a tv show it's a is every week he's dealing with these threats but of course back home they're judging him for not living up to their ideals but their ideals do not survive in and a harsher environment and and it goes back to that idea of although you have this upper class that are basically deciding oh we are right and this is how you should do things and I mean even looking at the bosses in this game whether it's J.S. Steinman whether it's Sandler cohen or even andrew ryan as a whole they are looking down at everybody there is no way they are looking up or thinking how do we enrich this society for everyone they don't want to reinvent the wheel they want to turn it until they're on top of it and that is the i mean there's many failings of this society but i feel as if that is the main failing of rapture power play isn't it everyone's out for the power play And of course, there is one character that I feel as if is very fitting to finish off with. And that, of course, is Atlas, who this whole sequence is just probably the reason that people consider this game art, and I am so with them, is of course, when you finally confront Andrew Ryan with Atlas in tow.
01:37:56
Speaker
And before you get to him, you come across, and this is something interesting as well, because see, if you don't play the audio log, you can miss some really important information. 100%, yeah. Which is so fascinating that it leaves you as the player to decide whether or not you want to listen to this and whether or not you want the answers. Because you look up at this wall and it's full of pictures of yourself as the player and the words, would you kindly scrolled into the wall. And you listen to this tape where Dr. Yi Suchong says to your character when they're younger, oh, what a lovely puppy. And that again, as a dog owner, it's really hard to listen to that one, but he says, oh, what a lovely puppy. Break its neck. And obviously the young boy gets distressed.
01:38:41
Speaker
He's like, no, I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. And then he utters the words, would you kindly? To which then he breaks the dog's neck, which is horrifying. And then you think, oh, wonder why he went psycho and did that. What is up with would you kindly? And then of course you have your face to face with Andrew Ryan and it reveals the truth that, do you mind me going into this? no no let's go to this is the biggest bit right you end up confronting him and then he reveals that you indeed aren't somebody from the surface you are a citizen of rapture as it were not only that but you are technically the child of andrew ryan so long story short andrew ryan had a affair with a exotic dancer who then sold their embryo to fontaine and when andrew ryan found out he was not very happy. So much so that, yeah, there is a very horrible scene that you come across later on, and yeah, this poor woman's been basically bludgeoned to death on the bed, and Andrew Ryan did not take too kindly to that, but essentially this child was brought up in the lab, was manipulated and conditioned to follow these orders whenever they hear the words, would you kindly? Of course, that leads to one of the greatest plot twists of gaming history.
Iconic Plot Twists and Endings
01:39:56
Speaker
And It's such a powerful scene because initially when I was thinking about what was saying before about getting your autonomy taken from you in that scene where Ken Levine wanted to say, oh, I want the player to be a part of the game and not just in a cut scene.
01:40:12
Speaker
And this is one of the few times that they incorporate a cut scene. I think Penny's... Personally, that was the greatest choice they could have made here because it just reinforces the idea that you as the player, when you hear these words, would you kindly, are just totally helpless, aren't you? Well, that's the thing. You know, Andrew Ryan could be talking directly to you at that point. And the thing is, it's done so well. And when I first played it, I wasn't aware of it. So, you know, fortunately for me, I didn't know what the spoiler was. But Atlas has played, he's an Irish chap, isn't he? You know, nice and friendly. He's saying, would you kindly? And, you know, you are just doing it because he's saying he needs you to help find his wife and daughter.
01:40:50
Speaker
You know, and he's just asking you to do these things. You're not even thinking about it. And it's just like in any game, when you then start distilling it down, any game says, go here and get this, go here and do that, go here and kill that person. And it is, you know, when Ryan is saying a man chooses a slave of Bays, it is, like you said, he's talking to you as that game player, doing whatever the game is telling you. And I think it's a brilliant comparison there, yeah. And it's just so visceral, that whole confrontation, where from a casual player point of view, you might think, oh, that's silly. Why did Andrew Ryan do what he did? But he basically gives you the golf club, and this is something I've joked to you a couple of times on,
01:41:28
Speaker
recorded but you know he gives you the golf club and he says those very powerful six words a man chooses a slave obeys he chose to go out on his terms that was his choice he died by his motto didn't he because i think to that point he probably thought that rapture could be salvaged in some way there was almost that delusion that oh maybe he could to get rid of atlas maybe it could try to bring back what has already been the lost just the mind of a madman but yeah there's almost that last minute lucicity that he says is oh yeah a man chooses a slave obeys and as you said he goes out in his own terms he's not wanting to be a victim of fontaine he is wanting to be his own man and that is something again it's speaks volumes about his character but that's something he has never wanted to be he doesn't want to be under the heel of a tyrannical government or an oppressive regime he doesn't want to be anybody's his worst at might he doesn't want to be anybody's slave to their system he wants to be free and unfortunately that leads to his very gruesome deadfall is horrible it is a horrible scene
01:42:38
Speaker
Oh yeah, it's absolutely brutal because you have to sit there and just watch this unfold. You hit him in the face and even though he's gurgling through the pain, he says, a man chooses a slave obeys and you know, it's so, so powerful. So much so that when I was looking up that scene on YouTube, there are so many people for drama classes that also use that scene. oh wow okay there was one I saw that I could not stop laughing at because it was one of those either pool noodles or cardboard tubes something like that and it's like he's smacking this guy across the head and he's like a man chooses a slave always and he's in this cardboard thing and the like yeah it doesn't have the same effect as a game but you know I admire the hustle I admire the effort here but see the whole reveal thing as well I've sort of won my notes so and going back to the fact there's very few redeemable characters and where we said
01:43:31
Speaker
Tenenbaum is trying to now do her best. She says she's done a 180. Now, let's not forget Fontaine. I think it's Sushong and Tenenbaum basically stole or bought this embryo, stole this embryo and genetically manipulated him because I think if I read right at one year old, I think he had the body of 19 year old.
01:43:47
Speaker
So I think they've enhanced the growth, etc. Brainwashed them, sent them away. And you then find out you were the cause of the plane crash, didn't you? You overpowered, I think, the crew to cause the crash. Obviously, through the would you kindly message. So, you know, you don't know. But your character, again, ultimately is just the biggest pawn in Rapture. And I think that's what strikes me about that whole reveal. And also just how great a character Fontaine then becomes after the reveal of being Atlas. I think the acting and the voice acting and the character flip, I think is brilliant. Yeah, because, as you said, when you eventually dispatch of Andrew Ryan, on his terms, not yours, then Atlas urges you, you know, oh, put his keycard in, because otherwise Rapture's gonna blow up, it's gonna sink to the ocean. So you you save Atlas, but then you don't realise that you in turn have given power over to Fontaine, who turns out, spoilers again, to be Atlas. There's actually one funny thing I want to point out before we go into this, is that apparently there was a playtest for this game in January 2007, and apparently one of the things that the players criticised was Atlas's accent. Oh, really? Now, before you think, oh, what, the Irish accent? No, no, no, that's what it was changed to. Apparently before that he had a southern drawl, which was described as a lecherous Colonel Sanders...
01:45:10
Speaker
and That's a description and a half. Yeah, and the apparently way everybody distrusted him immediately. And I thought that was just so funny being like, oh, nobody knows he's the villain. It's like, yeah, we immediately know he's the villain. Come on now. Because I don't think I would take that as seriously. Hearing, would you kindly, poor daddy and please, thank you. i was Fountain the entire time. It's like, yeah, no. you're not fooling anyone.
01:45:35
Speaker
but I guess the total difference between an Irish to an American accent is there's a bit more impact there, isn't it? Rather than a regional change, I guess. I mean, I suppose the other way you could look at it is and I mean, I suppose there was that sense in America as well all with racism towards Irish people, but that idea of Atlas having that accent because it's deemed more as, at least compared to Andrew Ryan as a more working class type person as the hero to the working class being like oh look it's me I'm Atlas as opposed to like a very stiff upper lip Andrew Ryan you know going oh don't listen to them kind of thing and i think that is just such a
01:46:19
Speaker
clever twist to begin with but just such a clever inversion of preying on your humanity and again it's that idea of the whole thing that we've been saying about saving the little sisters and being moral and this decaying hellhole as it were because you're like oh look i'm being a good person but because you're being a good person and because and i'm not saying this is an argument again being a good person, but because you're doing these for the greater good, as it were, that unfortunately leads to the rise of someone who arguably is worse than Andrew Ryan, because although he died due to his ideals and his vision, Fontaine actively manipulated people, he actively prejudiced
01:47:01
Speaker
on the weakest of society. You know, the poor, the disenfranchised, those without a voice in Rapture. And he purposely put his money in to get them on his side. He didn't do it because he felt terrible for them or there was any kind of kind bone in his body. No, no, no. He just did this because he wanted to be on top of Rapture. Before I go into the finale, because know we have thoughts on that, is there anything else you want to say about him in particular?
01:47:30
Speaker
No, I just think, again, for a character you very rarely see. Well, you don't see up until the end. Again, it's just a compelling character. I think the acting, I mean, I've said it, I think the voice acting for everything, the audio joe logs, Ryan, Tenenbaum, Cohen and Atlas slash Fontaine, I think is great throughout. And they really make it vivid that there was this, well, I'll call it a grudge. It's a lot more than that. But between these two men, i think it's just played brilliantly. i think.
01:47:56
Speaker
there's a scene later on where and correct me if i'm wrong but i think you find one of atlas's lovers or something or a woman who's interested in him and he's recording one of his audio logs and that is just chilling to listen to we are listening to fontaine being like oh nobody knows it's me i'm fontaine hey i'm funny for no reason whatsoever i did to say i'm Fontaine and then all of a sudden you've got this woman coming and being like ah Mr Atlas, you okay? And he's like oh this proves to be a predicament.
01:48:31
Speaker
It's like gonna mosey on over and cover my tracks here. It's like oh god. But that is just so chilling because you obviously know that Fontaine is a man who is gonna get what he wants no matter what and he doesn't want any loose ends so he actively seeks them out as you see and just plucks them out as needed including your character because there is a failsafe protocol, can't remember the exact words he uses, but you know, it's like a thing that technically is supposed to kill you, but you manage to get rid of the conditioning from Sushong's laboratory, which I think, I could be wrong, is that not when you go into the lab and he's just been skewered by a big drill? Yeah, think you're right, yeah. Yeah, you're like, oh, oh dear. Again, going to the idea of environmental storytelling, but he is such a sinister character. Honestly, I love all the characters in this, and by love, I don't mean I condone their actions. I love them in the sense that I love how they're written, that there is just such that complex, complexity about them which is why i am severely disappointed in the finale of this game when you go up to the top you're gonna face atlas or sorry fontaine one-on-one and he has literally turned himself into atlas the statue he's literally i'm like okay my nose is missing because that was way too on the nose i am totally with you i feel as if that is probably one of the weakest parts of the game It just turns into a generic boss fight and it's a disappointing boss fight. Whereas we said this man has built himself up to be this real evil mastermind. Now with it that human element and then it turns into this glowing genetic monster, isn't it? That's it. because they can use all the plasmids and it's supposed to be one of these bits where it's like, you now have to use what you've learned throughout the game, whether that's quickly hacking the security sentries or whether that's quickly dispatching splicers with your wrench and things. And again, you have to juggle this and that. I will admit I was guilty because I took out the camera, snapped a couple of pictures.
01:50:38
Speaker
Yeah. I don't think it did much, but it's an interesting fight. But again, for a story so rich in philosophy and questions and that, it just seems as if it's let down. It almost feels like a doom villain at times. Yeah, it just feels rushed. It feels bolted on. But for me, though, it is tempered by the fact that if you do the good ending, which I'm sure most people do, that is quite a nice emotional punch at the end of it. Oh, I love that ending. It made me tear up. I don't know about you, Definitely, I said it made my wife it it tear up a bit. And even me, it it gets me. I'm not going to lie. course it does. it's far For anyone who doesn't know, and if you don't know, then why are you listening? Go play Bioshock. But yeah, at the very end, if you choose to save all the little sisters, there is a lovely narration by Tenenbaum where she says... They gave you the key to the city, but you gave them hope, the freedom, and you essentially take these little sisters to the surface and you give them the one thing that they had never had up until that point. You give them their freedom, you give them their life back. And it almost goes back, I can't believe I'm saying this, but it goes back to what Andrew Ryan was saying about the whole notion of freedom, about how a man chooses a slave obeys. And it's that idea that Jack has chosen to oppose Ryan's doctrine and ideology, that he is not just fighting for himself anymore. He is fighting for the future of these poor children that have been essentially brainwashed into being little sisters and he has saved them. There wasn't any real motivation for him to save them other than the fact that if you're playing it right he is a good person. But then he takes them to the surface and he gives them a long full life. They go away, they get an education, they get married and things. And bit that always gets to me at the end is when you see Jack's hand withered because he's old. you tell his past and and that's the thing it's just a hand but you know exactly what it's telling you exactly yeah but then you see all the fans take his and you know they've all got the wedding rings and things yeah see thinking of it right now it's just it's baffling how much you can get out of that because there's not really other than the narration there's not any dialogue that goes on between them there's not any little sister going gee willikers i'm glad i've got an education or gee whiz dad you're dying lot of it's implied along with the narration, but it's really effective and I can't put my finger on it either. Yeah, it's totally unspoken and I think that's partly due to the sound design, which I know something we've not really touched on much, but the sound effects throughout the game are absolutely amazing and building that and especially the music. But for the ending especially, it's that kind of swelling, happy music. And again, you think, oh great, they're getting married, they've got a degree, so what? But the implications behind that is the fact that they have gone from rapture into this, as we said, this just utterly horrible place where they get no choices. They are basically slaves to the system of down in rapture as gatherers for Adam to living this normal life, you know, because it's something we can all relate to, wanting to an education, get married, find that special someone. And then at the very end, and think that's really what gets me, is the fact that Jack
01:53:54
Speaker
Although he had that very, very problematic beginning as it were, killing his way through rapture, he can happily die in peace, not just as his own man, but as someone who has proven Ryan wrong, even past his death, that no one man, ironically enough, no one man is an island, that life indeed is worth living. And it's just shown by him being embraced with all these hands of the people that he saved.
01:54:20
Speaker
And I just think that's absolutely beautiful. But I think the line is something like, you never said what you wanted, but I think I know. And that's when the hands grab his. And I think it's ultimately that he's got a family. I think that he saved them. He did the right thing. And ultimately that they've got and now he's got a family of sort. Absolutely. It's probably the reason I would say this game's art. Yeah, it's great. It's one of the more effective endings. As we said, even though it's only about
Potential Bioshock Adaptation and Closing Remarks
01:54:44
Speaker
90 seconds and you barely see any characters. Exactly. I mean, to be fair, that's probably for the best, because as I said, the little sisters are meant to look cute and things, but they do look a bit demonic, even after the glowing eyes are taken off them, and I feel bad for saying that, but yeah, it's interesting the art direction they went for, but again, it was 2007, can't be too harsh. But genuinely, I think this game stands above so many games of the time. And even nowadays, a lot the games coming out, though you do see that with a lot of companies, don't you? That they want to try and, not remake, but they want to try and capture the same magic that made Bioshock what it is, didn't they? Yeah, I think so. But I think you can. It was very much of its time.
01:55:29
Speaker
Yeah. And yeah, I think all the pieces fell into place for it. As I said, other than a couple of missteps, it did what it did really well. And I think that's really the best way I can sum it up. Because as I said before, and again, I don't want to be too critical because it's an indie game, but Close to the Sun was probably the closest I've ever seen a game take elements from it and try to make it its own thing.
01:55:52
Speaker
And there's bits in that that work, bits in it that definitely don't work. It's an interesting thing because for me I would say similar things would be because I'm looking at it different way. I would say it's like what becomes of Edith Finch because it's the way it makes you feel. For me it's the way Bioshock makes me feel when I'm playing it rather than gameplay elements. So for me it's that emotional, that sadness that is how it makes me feel when I'm playing it and that's why I would relate it more to a game like that. see that is an absolutely but fantastic point though do you think that probably going to get absolutely harpoon gunned by the bioshock community here do you think that this and not at the time but i mean going past it do you think this could work as a walking simulator type game i see why you're asking that and i think yes it could do i think it could do on the basis that silent protagonist everything's happening around you everything's being told to you think it could do yeah Because I was thinking in terms of games like Soma, where, again, that's more horror based. And don't get me wrong, it's nothing like Bioshock. The only thing that's similar is you're both under the sea.
01:56:55
Speaker
That's about it. It's like that meme of the guy pointing with his mouth open going, oh, it's just like Bioshock. It's like, oh, it's just under the ocean. Not everything under the ocean is Bioshock. But at the same time, you know, it's hard to shake off those kind of comparisons. It's a bit like creating a military FPS and not comparing it to like Call of Duty and things like that. It's such a fascinating game, especially from what we could have got to begin with. We could have got this really wacky game ah thing because even when I went on to social media of course and asked the amazing pandalurians to say what they actually thought of the game and you know there was a lot of very interesting points of view because we had we needed roads podcasting awesome series still waiting for an adaptation I'll ask you about that in a second and high score high stakes podcasting the wrench an absolutely iconic weapon which
01:57:53
Speaker
To be fair, it's true because it is a really, really iconic weapon. But do you think this game would work as an adaptation, see as a TV series or film? I think I've said this before. i have even said it on this show, I think. But for me, yes. But only, again, if it was pre-Fall of Rapture. I think it would be the initial building of it. You know, you've got the drama element. there and then of course you've got the whole rivals you know ryan v fontaine which is in a whole crime almost like mob type program so i think it would but i think as crazy as it sounds i would stay away from the post fall and the big daddy and little sister i think it would work best as a prequel
01:58:33
Speaker
No, I'm totally with you there, because I feel as if there's only maybe a handful of studios who want to adapt from the games directly, in particular with HBO's The Last of Us just now, which, although controversial in some elements, I feel as if it takes more from the games and is just retelling, whereas on the flip side, we've got Halo, which is the biggest disappointment in the world. Absolutely hate that show, but again, that's a rant for another. But again, that takes the world and tries to do its own thing.
01:59:02
Speaker
Again, terribly, but it still tries to do its own thing. God bless it. But the same with Bioshock as well, you kind of think. Is it going to be successful if it copies the same formula? Are they going to put the CGI budget into Atlas? We might not know. if We've said it's all about the characters and Bioshock 2, which we'll go into next week. There's a lot more. So focus on the characters, not on the game aspect of it, I would say. Because as I said to I ended up removing Bioshock 2 because it was one bug too many for me last night. But um there's a lot more characters you get to meet in that. And let's see the backstory. Let's see them. Let's see what they were doing pre-Rapture. Let's see how they adapted to Rapture. I think you've got a bigger drama there than seeing...
01:59:42
Speaker
splice as fighting because in the end that's all it's going to be if you're adapting the game there's not much you can tell that the game hasn't done brilliantly and then that might as well well it's going to be a movie but i would rather see a series where you could get a lot more out of rapture in its heyday it will be interesting to see if any studios actually take the franchise because i know they've talked about it to and fro and saying ah maybe maybe not well i saw our netflix doing a film Was that confirmed? Because they always seem to pop up every so often and say, yeah, we're doing that. And then it's like, yeah, maybe.
02:00:14
Speaker
but I'll have a quick look now, but I thought they were still doing it. Yeah. I mean, I hope so. It would be interesting if they were. But then again, you know, people would either way, whether it comes out great or terrible, people would still complain about it, I think. You know, in February this year, they're saying it's still plodding along. So, yeah, it's happening. Well, hopefully next year we'll have another episode to record.
02:00:35
Speaker
DLC to this month yeah exactly yeah only with no time travel shenanigans and if you don't get that listen in a couple of weeks you'll know what we're on about but on that note Dan thank you so much for kicking off Bioshock month talking about this absolutely fantastic game Yeah, absolute pleasure. And i had a difficult choice deciding which one I wanted to do, but I thought I did Mass Effect 3. I think I want to be at the first one of this one, but I could have easily picked 2 or Infinite. Oh no, thank you. Honestly, you've been an absolutely fantastic guest today. And thank you so much for putting up with my rambles.
02:01:09
Speaker
Likewise, yeah. and yeah, just before we wrap up, where can these amazing Pandalurians listening at home find your content? Now, firstly, thanks for the invite. But yeah, you can listen to me on a couple of places. You can look for Casting Views was my first show. So that is ah general topic one. I will talk about anything and everything. I've had you on for shows that jumped the shark, I think gaming controversies. Oh God, had you on a number of times now, but you know, I've done AI, I've done medical advances, but a new show, Gaming Views, co-hosted with a friend of mine. Yeah, we're taking a look at everything gaming really. So it's talking points, it's news and yeah, dives into hardware, et cetera. So yeah, look for Casting Views and Gaming Views wherever you get your podcasts. And honestly, i cannot reinforce that enough. If you haven't checked out both casting views and especially the up and coming gaming views, please go and listen to it because it's an absolutely fantastic podcast.
02:02:06
Speaker
I'm not just saying that because I've been a guest on casting views and I'm angling for an invite on gaming views. It'll be on the way. The paperwork's being drafted. Just sent through the bathysphere. i'll be waiting but no honestly it's a fantastic podcast definitely go check out guys but if you would like to listen to more episodes of bioshock month as well as general episodes between dan and myself then you can check us out our our website chatsanami.com as well as all good podcast apps i also want to thank our amazing pandalorian patrons for coming all the way down to pod pack city to listen to this if Huge shout out to Robotic Battle Toaster, Sonya, Ghosty, and Cryptic 1991. Thank you all so, so much for supporting the show. if you would like early access to our episodes, exclusive content, our uncut 10 hour episode of this where we dive into the philosophy of Ayn Rand, for legal reasons that last one's a joke, then you can check us out at patreon.com forward slash chat tsunami.
02:03:02
Speaker
This podcast As of course a proud member of the Podpack Collective, for more information check us out at our Twitter slash X handle at Podpack Collect. Well everyone, that's the end of the first Bioshock Month episode. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly... What the hell is that noise?
02:03:22
Speaker
Oh don't worry about that Satsu, it's just my Podpack self-destruction button in case we ever got overrun by bots. Why? would you have a button like that? Why would you press it when we're still inside the damn city? Relax Satsu, all I have to do is press this button and it should turn itself off. Now let's see, it should be somewhere in this bathosphere.
02:03:47
Speaker
Oh, look, he pressed the wrong button again. and he left me trapped down here. oh