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12: Rich Food, Small Bites - with Sarah Burke and Liz Koenigsfeld
2 Plays1 year ago
What's an atrium? What are these little tiny wooden dolls everywhere? Why are there no television screens or tablets??
These questions and many more will be answered by our guests today. Sarah Burke and Liz Koenigsfeld are trained catechists in a program called "Catechesis of the Good Shepherd" which is a method of learning, interaction, and contemplation inspired by the Montessori system of education. In guiding small children into the Mystery, we may find ourselves being guided as well...
The websites and resources referenced can be found here:
Interested in touring an atrium?
Contact St. Patrick Catholic Church in Cedar Falls 319-266-3523
Book List:
The Good Shepherd and the Child: A Joyful Journey
The Good Shepherd and the Child: Life in the Vine
The Religious Potential of the Child - Sofia Cavalletti
The History of the Kingdom of God: Creation to Parousia -Sofia Cavalletti
Nurturing the Whole Child- Gianna Gobbi
Web Resources:
https://www.cgsusa.org
Good Shepherd and the Child Podcast: 4 Seasons of really rich conversations on a variety of topics
Podcast – Season 1 | CGSUSA
https://www.cgsusa.org/learn/resource...
Adult Resources for Learning: CGS Resources | CGSUSA
https://www.cgsusa.org/learn/resources/
https://dbqarch.org/archdiocesan-euch...
https://www.eucharisticrevival.org/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Guests
00:00:17
Speaker
Happy Easter and good morning or good evening to whatever time you are listening.
00:00:22
Speaker
My name is Father Jacob Rouse, and I'm the pastor of Notre Dame Parish in Cresco, Iowa, and I would like to welcome you to the DeBucharistic Revival podcast.
00:00:33
Speaker
Because that's the name we're going with.
00:00:34
Speaker
Thank you, Father Kevin.
00:00:35
Speaker
Father Kevin, could you introduce yourself?
00:00:37
Speaker
He is my co-host and my brother priest, and he's going to tell you a little bit about where he is and what he's up to.
00:00:43
Speaker
Yeah, I'm Father Kevin Earlywine, pastor of St.
00:00:46
Speaker
Patrick's in Hampton, and
00:00:48
Speaker
St.
00:00:48
Speaker
Mary's in Ackley, Iowa and happy to be here on the Dubuque Christic Revival podcast and we have a couple guests with us today.
00:00:56
Speaker
We do a couple we have two guests Sarah and Liz and they are both practitioners and teachers and educators in the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd and before we get into that I'd like Sarah and Liz to briefly introduce themselves.
00:01:11
Speaker
Well, my name is Sarah Burke, and I am a parishioner at St.
00:01:15
Speaker
Patrick in Cedar Falls, and I've been a catechist in the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd for six or seven years.
00:01:25
Speaker
I'm currently the pre-K through sixth grade religious education coordinator and just someone that's wondering about how to be closer to God, and this is the work of how we found it.
00:01:39
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:01:41
Speaker
Liz Koenigsfeld I am a parishioner here at St.
00:01:43
Speaker
Patrick's in Cedar Falls and I have been a catechist with Catechesis of the Good Shepherd since 2019.
00:01:51
Speaker
I am trained for toddler, which is zero to three, level one, which is three to six.
00:02:00
Speaker
Level two, six to nine, and then partially trained in level three, which is the nine to 12 year old.
00:02:07
Speaker
I'm currently serving in a level two atrium where we do lots of sacramental prep.
00:02:13
Speaker
And that's always a fun and joyous learning experience.
00:02:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:22
Speaker
And we're friends.
00:02:23
Speaker
Yes.
00:02:23
Speaker
Great.
00:02:24
Speaker
Enemies.
00:02:25
Speaker
Yeah.
What is Catechesis of the Good Shepherd?
00:02:30
Speaker
So the topic today, obviously, is the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd.
00:02:35
Speaker
And that is a form of education that helps Jesus' favorite people, young, small children, to come to learn more about the Catholic faith and about him.
00:02:46
Speaker
Can you basically give kind of like a little intro to what Catechesis of the Good Shepherd is?
00:02:54
Speaker
I would say that the easiest or the jumping off point that a lot of times catechists will use is that we, this method, we call it a method, not a curriculum, but the method is based on having a prepared space.
00:03:12
Speaker
that is geared toward the age of the children that will be in it.
00:03:16
Speaker
That it is providing a space of peace and focus so that it can be a place to pray.
00:03:24
Speaker
But the role of the catechist is to, in its most simple state, to listen to God with children.
00:03:31
Speaker
And so generally we don't refer to ourselves as teachers and it is,
00:03:37
Speaker
Whether it be cliche or not, it's acknowledging that the only teacher in the room is God and that we have the gift of being in a space to listen to God with these children.
00:03:52
Speaker
Yeah, it was CGS as we shorten that term too.
00:03:57
Speaker
It was founded almost 70 years ago by two ladies, Gianna Gobi and Sophia Cavalletti.
00:04:03
Speaker
And they use this method, did you already say, Maria Montessori from Maria Montessori.
00:04:10
Speaker
Some of us have heard.
00:04:11
Speaker
There are the Montessori schools that are out there.
00:04:17
Speaker
So again, a prepared environment, which is just, it's a beautiful space to come and pray with God.
00:04:23
Speaker
It is filled with materials that are made for the scripture, for the presentations, for the children to work with at their own level.
00:04:34
Speaker
And it really allows them
00:04:36
Speaker
and the adult too, to enter into prayer with them, to enter into this wonder of the scripture of what, what God is trying to help us understand about his desire for us to know him.
00:04:49
Speaker
Um, and, and his desire for us to know how much he loves us and who we are to him.
00:04:54
Speaker
Um, and it just really, it's just, it's just a really beautiful way to experience our faith.
00:05:02
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:05:03
Speaker
I like that.
00:05:04
Speaker
You both say that you are, what was the word you used, mentors or facilitators?
00:05:09
Speaker
Catechists.
00:05:10
Speaker
Catechists, thank you.
00:05:11
Speaker
Yes, because when you are a teacher or a professor or a trainer, you are handing on information from your high and lofty pedestal.
00:05:19
Speaker
But I really like the philosophy that you've already brought to it is that you are learning and receiving information.
00:05:27
Speaker
just as much as the children are, which I think is a really great place to be in as far as humility and responding to the Holy Spirit.
The Atrium: A Home for Spiritual Growth
00:05:37
Speaker
Can you just to put us kind of in the frame of mind, the atrium is the classroom setting that you call it.
00:05:45
Speaker
Can you like walk us through what would be like the first three or four things that you would see when you walk into the atrium?
00:05:51
Speaker
Just take us on a little tour.
00:05:53
Speaker
The word that we use or that you hear a lot is just a prepared environment.
00:05:58
Speaker
And so the hallmarks of that prepared environment are specifically in what you see, but maybe more importantly, what you don't see.
00:06:09
Speaker
We live in a really loud world, a world that's full of stimulus and
00:06:14
Speaker
And then we are gifted with this faith that is so rich, but sometimes subtle.
00:06:21
Speaker
And so we can't necessarily fully engage with God sometimes when we're in that loud, regular space.
00:06:32
Speaker
And so the atrium is, what you would notice is that it's a softer space, both in light and in sound.
00:06:40
Speaker
It's meant to feel home-like.
00:06:43
Speaker
And so there's not
00:06:44
Speaker
the efficiency of matching chairs and tables.
00:06:48
Speaker
You might see, you know, an assortment of shelving of tables of textures, plants, flowers, things that in our regular life may seem uncommon.
00:07:05
Speaker
But it is meant to feel different.
00:07:07
Speaker
It is meant to feel special and to be
00:07:13
Speaker
fully available.
00:07:16
Speaker
for the child no matter their age, not no matter their age, the age that the room is geared toward.
00:07:21
Speaker
So Liz, you can speak more to this.
00:07:25
Speaker
If you walk into what we would refer to as a level one atrium, that's for three to six year old children.
00:07:32
Speaker
That's gonna look very different than say a toddler atrium or a level three atrium that's geared toward nine to 12 year olds.
00:07:42
Speaker
But what would you add to that, Liz?
00:07:44
Speaker
Yeah, so every year when we begin, and even throughout the year sometimes, we will sit and discuss with the children, what is this place we come to, to be with God?
00:07:54
Speaker
And they'll describe it a lot of times as it feels like home.
00:07:58
Speaker
It's very homey.
00:07:59
Speaker
You know, all these materials are handmade by someone in the parish, someone they probably know, and they find that fascinating.
00:08:06
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:08:08
Speaker
The main areas when we organize a room, there is a lot in many of the atriums, there's a specific organization to it.
00:08:14
Speaker
And you'll notice your eye will be drawn to.
00:08:18
Speaker
In the very middle of the room usually is the Good Shepherd table.
00:08:22
Speaker
And so you'll see these two sheet folds, which are round boards that have, they're green and your eyes just drawn to that middle of that room wondering what that could be.
00:08:36
Speaker
And then there's always a prayer table and there's a corner that has baptism in it.
00:08:40
Speaker
And there's a corner with the altar.
00:08:43
Speaker
And all these beautiful and what seems so small and cute to us as adults, but to a child, they just breathe this sigh of, that's for me.
00:08:53
Speaker
And they get to use it.
00:08:55
Speaker
And they love working with these materials, especially as we show them more and more how much meaning all of it has for them.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah.
Child Autonomy and Mass Engagement
00:09:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:06
Speaker
Well, the space is also provided again in terms of things that are different, that might feel different or look different, whether to a child's eye or to an adult's eye is that with limits, you know, we have some conventions of after you have been shown this work, you're invited to work with it anytime you choose.
00:09:26
Speaker
And so that is a foreign concept to many children,
00:09:33
Speaker
you know, that we encounter initially is that not only is this made for you, we are going to, you know, you are going to have independence of when and how you use this.
00:09:45
Speaker
It offers so many points of growth, you know, that independence of that a child may need to, to,
00:09:51
Speaker
maybe drawn to work with something or repeat something over and over and over and over and over.
00:09:56
Speaker
In the same way that we as adults might find ourselves in our prayer life, we might read a verse, you know, for the 50th time in our life.
00:10:03
Speaker
But that one time we just, we really had to just dive deep into it.
00:10:07
Speaker
That happens with kids at every age.
00:10:11
Speaker
And it's really only the limitation of the materials in front of them that they get to really dig deeply into that.
00:10:17
Speaker
And so we see that a lot in this work and in that room.
00:10:20
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:10:21
Speaker
Hmm.
00:10:22
Speaker
A lot of chewing marinating that's happening.
00:10:26
Speaker
The first
00:10:29
Speaker
The opposite that I think of is I'm already in a mood of contemplation just hearing you describe it.
00:10:34
Speaker
But I think of, I don't know, Buffalo Wild Wings is the first place that I'll pick on.
00:10:38
Speaker
When you walk in there and sit down, there's a screen, a screen, a screen, a screen.
00:10:42
Speaker
And there's a tablet at my table and there's all this noise and stuff and all these things just like fighting for my attention.
00:10:48
Speaker
But it sounds like kind of the child is in charge when they go into the atrium that they can...
00:10:55
Speaker
just choose whichever contemplative act they'd like to participate in.
00:11:01
Speaker
So that's really refreshing.
00:11:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:04
Speaker
And then also in a church, sit and be quiet.
00:11:07
Speaker
You know, like, I mean, it's good to be in a church and have children come to mass, but this is giving them like the churchy vibe, but then giving them a place to explore.
00:11:18
Speaker
So I think that's extremely healthy.
00:11:20
Speaker
And it's also, I mean, it directly leads to the mass.
00:11:24
Speaker
I mean, it's what we, every work that we do in the atrium is helping provide that beautiful meaning, that deeper meaning so that when they, the hope, the hope is that we can provide not only this vocabulary and the meaning behind the colors they see at mass, the different articles used during the mass.
00:11:45
Speaker
We provide not only a vocabulary and meaning to not only the child, but to the parents as well.
00:11:50
Speaker
so that they can, you know, at mass, you have that child who's wiggling around trying to, trying to get up and move because that's their language.
00:11:58
Speaker
Movement is their language.
00:11:59
Speaker
They need that.
00:12:00
Speaker
Well, it's, let's move with our eyes.
00:12:02
Speaker
Let's, what do you see up there?
00:12:04
Speaker
What, that ambo, what's going on up there?
00:12:07
Speaker
You know, do you see what father's raising now?
00:12:09
Speaker
What do we call that?
00:12:10
Speaker
Do you remember the name?
00:12:11
Speaker
You know, Oh, do you see him hold the patent and what's on the patent?
00:12:14
Speaker
You know, um,
00:12:16
Speaker
it's involving them in the mass by explaining, but to only the extent in which they can absorb it at their age.
00:12:27
Speaker
Rich food in small bites.
00:12:30
Speaker
This method gives...
00:12:33
Speaker
undiluted scripture undiluted liturgy undiluted gesture but in small age appropriate bites and then gifts them i'll use the word gift very intentionally gifts them with enough time and enough quiet
00:12:53
Speaker
so that they can think and respond.
00:12:56
Speaker
And to your comparison of Buffalo Wild Wings, oftentimes in our own, you know, we do our children a disservice unintentionally, you know,
00:13:08
Speaker
whether it be as parents, as educators, as aunts and uncles, to assume that they're not ready for something or to drag them in or out of something that they don't know what they're ready to receive.
00:13:24
Speaker
And this, through the wisdom of the founder 70 years ago, Sofia Cavalletti, that she just, she learned what was appropriate in these spaces and
00:13:37
Speaker
chose the works that are in these spaces based on what children responded to through observation.
00:13:45
Speaker
So it's by watching and listening and trusting, obviously the church and its teachings, but also the children and how they responded.
00:13:57
Speaker
And through her own humility of just learning and saying, well, that didn't work.
00:14:00
Speaker
So we need to find a different way to be able to deliver this word and then sit and ponder with them and
00:14:07
Speaker
and see what fruit comes from it, you know?
00:14:09
Speaker
So.
00:14:10
Speaker
And I think that any catechist who's in a room with children, whether it be little kids or teenagers or even adults, is familiar with that moment of humility of, ooh, that didn't work.
00:14:23
Speaker
You know, but it's, we, this is, this method walks hand in hand with the developmental readiness of a child at every single age and then goes from there.
00:14:38
Speaker
I love that.
00:14:40
Speaker
One thing that so strikes me about it, you kind of already started touching on this, but it really helps children.
00:14:47
Speaker
And I think a lot of adults need to learn this, but just that contemplative spirit, because like so much of mass and liturgy is used as symbols, right?
00:14:57
Speaker
And I think even for a lot of adults nowadays, they can just, to really prayerfully enter into the mass, you need that contemplative spirit to contemplate
00:15:07
Speaker
there's layers of symbols there that are so full of meaning, but we have so much of the Buffalo Wild Wings mentality, right?
00:15:16
Speaker
That it's just like a brief stimulant thing, but it's shallow, right?
00:15:20
Speaker
And we don't really sit with it, you know, to... But when we know these, but part of stories or part of symbols is the stories connected with them, our experiences associated with that thing that we realize it's layered with meaning,
00:15:36
Speaker
And so providing the space to really like allow that, right.
00:15:40
Speaker
To then all of a sudden things that Matt, like it, and it's conditioning children for that really to pray the mass well of, cause then it's not just like, Oh, father's got a cup up there, but it's you know, the, the, but it's like, Oh, I have a tangible experience with this, that was my, my own little version of this, of this chalice, but also then the whole thing of like, Oh, learning of like, there's a whole story connected with that of Jesus with his disciples that they've had a,
00:16:04
Speaker
tangible interaction of, of like moving little pieces around.
00:16:09
Speaker
But also like connecting that to like the family dinner table at home, but also then learning about like this good shepherd who gave, gives his life for his sheep.
00:16:16
Speaker
Right.
00:16:17
Speaker
And that, that all of a sudden that all starts to be connected and it's,
00:16:20
Speaker
it can be amazing to see, like, first of all, I think many adults need to learn that, right?
00:16:25
Speaker
Like, we ourselves, I think so many people, you know, I know adults who like, mass is boring, you know?
00:16:31
Speaker
And it's like, and I think it's just, well, we just haven't learned to really like pray, right?
00:16:37
Speaker
the mass to take the time and space to really contemplate.
00:16:41
Speaker
Like it's so easy to make it that, well, we have to stimulate people and rather it's, it's, and I love that image of the prepared space.
00:16:47
Speaker
Cause that's really the liturgical mindset of the church, right?
00:16:50
Speaker
It's preparing a space that we come and we're drawn into this mystery.
Exploring the Mystery of Faith
00:16:54
Speaker
And, you know, especially when you go into an old, beautiful church, the whole idea is the whole space, you know, especially those old ones with arches and, you know, stained glass windows and statues, it's all meant to like,
00:17:05
Speaker
engage all of your senses but into this place of contemplation you enter into this prepared space and then are drawn into it and so like in a in a small way that's what catechesis of the good shepherd is doing for children but i think adults need more catechesis of the good shepherd oh my goodness the children are much better open to this than the adults are i worry far less about a child than the adults
00:17:30
Speaker
And I'll say that with this method, the thing that is, you know, just in the, I hesitate to say the genius of the method because the genius is in God's plan.
00:17:40
Speaker
And this method is echoing God's plan.
00:17:45
Speaker
You know, so there is, you know, there's some, just this,
00:17:50
Speaker
it is, it is well, and it's inspired by the Holy Spirit, you know, and it does nothing more than echoing what already exists in terms of the truth of God's plan and this church.
00:18:02
Speaker
But what I'll say of something that is, I think, significant is that you look to, you look to an 18 month old or a 15 month old and say, what are they ready to receive in terms of
00:18:16
Speaker
you know, if we use the example of moral formation, you know, what's the first step of moral formation other than just managing ourselves?
00:18:26
Speaker
And then, you know, you move into a three to six-year-old child and it's really that same, you know, it grows with them.
00:18:34
Speaker
And it isn't until we get to that, you know, six, seven, eight-year-old child that moral formation looks familiar to our adult eyes of, you know,
00:18:45
Speaker
you know, hearing the maxims of Jesus of, you know, do good to those who hate you, you know, or living, but like first came that living with community.
00:18:54
Speaker
And so all of these, all of these things grow far before
00:18:59
Speaker
you know, we would think to give the rulesy adult lesson, but as contingent on the developmental stage of the child.
00:19:08
Speaker
The other, I think, best example that, you know, you can point to, or one example that we can point to is how, you know, we don't start with explaining a definition, a textbook's definition of what real presence is in the Eucharist.
00:19:24
Speaker
You know, we isolate it down to
00:19:28
Speaker
one single gesture, you know, in CGS, the, I'm trying to think if there's anything that precedes this, but beginning by presenting that gesture and asking a question, not starting with an explanation, but starting with a question of what did you see?
00:19:48
Speaker
And then growing from there, high to low over a chalice.
00:19:53
Speaker
Naming it, saying, this is the gesture of epiclesis.
00:19:57
Speaker
This is thinking about what do three to six-year-olds relate to.
00:20:01
Speaker
They understand what a gift is.
00:20:03
Speaker
This is a gift of the Holy Spirit to transform bread and wine.
00:20:11
Speaker
That's it.
00:20:11
Speaker
We give that to them at three.
00:20:14
Speaker
And at four.
00:20:16
Speaker
And at five.
00:20:16
Speaker
And at six.
00:20:17
Speaker
And at seven.
00:20:18
Speaker
And at eight.
00:20:18
Speaker
And it just keeps.
00:20:19
Speaker
And 40.
00:20:20
Speaker
It never leaves.
00:20:21
Speaker
It never leaves.
00:20:22
Speaker
But then, so then all of these works grow to, okay, now you understand what a gift is.
00:20:28
Speaker
Okay, what's our response?
00:20:29
Speaker
What's the gesture of response in terms of...
00:20:33
Speaker
offering.
00:20:34
Speaker
I'm realizing I'm doing visible gestures on a podcast, which is particularly not effective, but we have, we have these works that grow.
00:20:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's fine.
00:20:47
Speaker
I was just going to explain that what Sarah did is hands about face level and then slowly being put, like lowered down over the child.
00:20:57
Speaker
This is called the Greek word epiclesis, which means calling down of the Holy Spirit.
00:21:01
Speaker
And you'll see your priest do this in mass in some way.
00:21:05
Speaker
But to have a child just recognize that having...
00:21:09
Speaker
Sarah and Liz and whoever the catechist is demonstrate this and say, this is what the priest is going to do.
00:21:15
Speaker
And then watch for it when you see it in mass.
00:21:18
Speaker
That's like you said, rich food and small bites.
00:21:22
Speaker
And so, and I didn't, I didn't learn what epiclesis was until three years into seminary.
00:21:26
Speaker
So there are three year olds that know what epiclesis is.
00:21:31
Speaker
A lot of three-year-olds that not only know it, but love it.
00:21:35
Speaker
They look for it.
00:21:35
Speaker
They'll point it out.
00:21:36
Speaker
You'll see in mass, some children pointing up like, watch, watch here.
00:21:40
Speaker
It's time.
00:21:41
Speaker
It's time.
00:21:41
Speaker
It's almost sad when we're all kneeling and it happens too quickly.
00:21:45
Speaker
And you're like, no, no.
00:21:46
Speaker
If your church happens to employ bell ringing at that time too, that even just cements it into your neurons.
00:21:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:55
Speaker
So I'm sure you're both familiar and have experienced the ancient and venerable art of making children learn things from a textbook as you modificate from the front of the classroom.
Personal Journeys of Sarah and Liz
00:22:08
Speaker
What converted you from that method to this?
00:22:13
Speaker
I guess, how did you discover this and awaken to its benefits?
00:22:17
Speaker
And then what changes has it made in your own faith life?
00:22:22
Speaker
Well, I'll start.
00:22:23
Speaker
I'll try not to go too deep into my own background, but I think it helps to kind of understand why I'm so on fire for this.
00:22:33
Speaker
So I am a cradle Catholic, grew up in a small German community.
00:22:38
Speaker
We attended mass every Sunday.
00:22:40
Speaker
We sang in the choir.
00:22:42
Speaker
I knew the things to do.
00:22:43
Speaker
I knew I was Catholic.
00:22:44
Speaker
I knew it was important.
00:22:46
Speaker
I didn't know why.
00:22:47
Speaker
And I never had a lot of
00:22:51
Speaker
I never had a lot of feeling and I really, I knew that that was probably something I was missing.
00:23:01
Speaker
As I continued to get older though, I could feel myself just being like, well, I know.
00:23:09
Speaker
And when I got into college, I know I should be going to mass, but you know, I, I'm busy at school work to do, you know, and I didn't make it a priority.
00:23:17
Speaker
I, so it's like, I knew, but I didn't really know.
00:23:23
Speaker
it wasn't until I had had some things happen in my life where I could, I had voices or I had just things happen in there.
00:23:33
Speaker
I was like, someone is telling me something I need.
00:23:35
Speaker
I need to change this situation in my life.
00:23:38
Speaker
And at the time I was dating someone and it was a long relationship and I knew that I needed to probably leave it.
00:23:45
Speaker
And I just kept having that pull.
00:23:46
Speaker
I needed to get out of this situation.
00:23:48
Speaker
And when I finally had the courage to do so, I very quickly met my future husband.
00:23:54
Speaker
And I was not thrilled about that because I was like, no, I think I'm not supposed to be doing this.
00:23:59
Speaker
But the pull was so strong that I just, I stuck with it.
00:24:03
Speaker
And after meeting his family, his father, you know, we went through all the conversations of what are you going to do after college?
00:24:13
Speaker
And
00:24:13
Speaker
What are your plans?
00:24:15
Speaker
He just cut right through it and said, so what is your relationship with Jesus?
00:24:20
Speaker
And I was like, I looked around.
00:24:22
Speaker
I was like, am I supposed to answer that?
00:24:24
Speaker
What?
00:24:26
Speaker
What do you, what do you mean?
00:24:27
Speaker
Like, that's something you can have.
00:24:31
Speaker
And he told me his story about, you know, how he kind of found that relationship through a core group of men that he had worked with.
00:24:39
Speaker
And it was then that I was like,
00:24:42
Speaker
That's what I'm missing.
00:24:43
Speaker
I'm missing a relationship.
00:24:45
Speaker
That's that feeling, that love that I didn't even know, but it makes sense.
00:24:50
Speaker
Okay.
00:24:50
Speaker
So how do I do this?
00:24:51
Speaker
How do I go about finding this relationship and nurturing it?
00:24:55
Speaker
Cause that's what you do with a relationship, right?
00:24:58
Speaker
So I started going to Bible studies.
00:24:59
Speaker
I'm like, for sure, Bible studies, this will do it.
00:25:01
Speaker
So I, and it was great.
00:25:03
Speaker
I learned a lot more about different stories in the Bible, the people.
00:25:09
Speaker
But I was learning knowledge and I was not gaining the emotional connection that I needed.
00:25:15
Speaker
And my husband at the time...
00:25:18
Speaker
We were getting ready to have kids.
00:25:20
Speaker
And so our conversation shifted toward, well, how do we approach our faith in our children?
00:25:27
Speaker
How do we teach them this?
00:25:29
Speaker
Because I was still like, I still don't know anything.
00:25:32
Speaker
I cannot teach anybody anything right now.
00:25:34
Speaker
And I just kept remembering my upbringing with sitting at the table during RE and our religious education and just thinking,
00:25:45
Speaker
I'm reading, I didn't, I didn't at this time in my life, I still did not know how to look anything up in the Bible.
00:25:49
Speaker
I remember going to RE and having a Bible in front of me and just looking lost at other people around me, trying to figure out where to find things.
00:25:56
Speaker
At this time, I did not, I did not know anything about the makeup of the Bible.
00:26:03
Speaker
It was, it was very embarrassing to say that I was Catholic and that I had grown up Catholic and I knew so little.
00:26:09
Speaker
So I was determined to not be a parent that could not teach my children
00:26:16
Speaker
more than I had ever known when I was growing up.
00:26:20
Speaker
So one day in mass, I read the bulletin and I had noticed that there was going to be, for three to six-year-old children, a catechesis of the Good Shepherd atrium offered one time a week for 90 minutes.
00:26:35
Speaker
And at the time, so this was...
00:26:37
Speaker
I had a two-year-old or a three-year-old and a one-and-a-half-year-old, and I was staying home with them.
00:26:41
Speaker
And I thought, perfect.
00:26:42
Speaker
My son, Jack, I'm going to sign him up.
00:26:45
Speaker
And the next week in the back of church, these, and Sarah.
00:26:49
Speaker
This was a really big moment in my life, and I didn't even know it.
00:26:52
Speaker
I had never met Sarah before.
00:26:54
Speaker
And actually, Sarah was singing.
00:26:56
Speaker
She was a church that day at mass, and her husband was in the back.
00:27:00
Speaker
And I walked back there, and they had set up all of these beautiful materials.
00:27:06
Speaker
And of course, not knowing anything, I'm like, oh, these are so cute.
00:27:10
Speaker
And I told Patrick, I said, your wife's voice is just beautiful.
00:27:14
Speaker
I'm so grateful she sang today.
00:27:16
Speaker
And he's like, oh, yeah, she's wonderful.
00:27:19
Speaker
And then I said, well, tell me more about this.
00:27:22
Speaker
And then I signed up, signed my son up, and he was in the atrium that next fall.
00:27:29
Speaker
Fast forward to, I guess it was February of his first year.
00:27:33
Speaker
I had picked up my son from Atrium and Miss Tracy was his catechist at the time.
00:27:38
Speaker
And she invited me to stay for a presentation for the next week.
00:27:42
Speaker
And she said, we'll be showing him the cynical.
00:27:44
Speaker
And I said, great.
00:27:46
Speaker
I don't know what the cynical is, but okay.
00:27:49
Speaker
Sounds great.
00:27:49
Speaker
I can't wait to experience this.
00:27:51
Speaker
Because it was mysterious.
00:27:53
Speaker
I didn't, as a parent, I just dropped him up and picked him up.
00:27:55
Speaker
I didn't know what happened in there.
00:27:57
Speaker
And he's three.
00:27:57
Speaker
So he didn't,
00:27:58
Speaker
he's not yet able to communicate a lot of what he's experiencing, not verbally anyway.
00:28:05
Speaker
And so the next week I show up and I enter into this beautiful kind of darkened room with just almost natural light and some lamps around and she has it all set up and we sit and a candle is lit and she reads scripture from the Bible.
00:28:23
Speaker
We hear it once.
00:28:26
Speaker
And I'm like, oh, I'm familiar with this.
00:28:27
Speaker
Okay.
00:28:27
Speaker
It's the Last Supper.
00:28:28
Speaker
That's okay.
00:28:29
Speaker
I don't know what the cynical nonsense is yet.
00:28:31
Speaker
Let me find out.
00:28:32
Speaker
And she brings out this material and it is this wooden made room.
00:28:38
Speaker
We call them dioramas.
00:28:41
Speaker
And there's a table, a long table inside.
00:28:42
Speaker
And she brings out small peg figures and she sets them around the table and she continues to read and then she'll move some pieces.
00:28:53
Speaker
And then she
00:28:55
Speaker
She stops when the reading is over, and she places the crucifix on the table to identify when Jesus died.
00:29:06
Speaker
But then she lights the candles, and she says, Jesus has died.
00:29:11
Speaker
Jesus is risen.
00:29:12
Speaker
She lights each one separately.
00:29:14
Speaker
And I just sat there floored.
00:29:19
Speaker
Like I felt like I was in the room with Jesus at the Last Supper.
00:29:23
Speaker
And I was like, how many times in my life have I heard these words repeated at Mass and have never understood what we were doing at Mass?
00:29:35
Speaker
And forever, it still is my favorite presentation.
00:29:39
Speaker
And once I was trained in level two to see it have grown with the child in level three, it's just been amazing.
00:29:46
Speaker
It's just been beautiful.
00:29:47
Speaker
I knew at that moment that I wanted this for myself.
00:29:50
Speaker
I wanted to be a catechist because I knew I could learn more.
00:29:53
Speaker
I thought, I've always wanted to be a catechist, but I don't have enough knowledge to ever try to teach someone else.
00:29:59
Speaker
This is my opportunity.
00:30:00
Speaker
I'm going to get trained.
00:30:02
Speaker
I had no idea that just being trained in it, receiving the knowledge, was going to be the start of my relationship.
00:30:10
Speaker
It was going to help me understand how to have that.
00:30:12
Speaker
Well, and I think that I am my experience.
00:30:16
Speaker
So I am actually an adult convert.
00:30:18
Speaker
So I was getting, I was raised Lutheran, you know, went to church every Sunday, you know, did the expected things, you know, had my first communion was confirmed on, you know, Reformation Sunday.
00:30:32
Speaker
You know, I knew who Martin Luther was.
00:30:33
Speaker
Like I knew on a Reformation, but yeah,
00:30:38
Speaker
I knew that I was loved.
00:30:39
Speaker
I knew that Jesus loved me.
00:30:41
Speaker
That was echoed.
00:30:43
Speaker
But then I was getting ready to be married in my early 20s.
00:30:48
Speaker
And my husband has four sisters.
00:30:51
Speaker
And all of the ones who had been married, they had...
00:30:55
Speaker
met and dated non-Catholics who had dutifully converted.
00:31:01
Speaker
And so I entered into RCIA, you know, in preparation to this.
00:31:05
Speaker
And I started, and it was in, it was a, it was a reasonable program.
00:31:13
Speaker
But it was very fact driven.
00:31:15
Speaker
And I had, I went through and I had, you know, in the preparation, I think I'd gone through the right of election.
00:31:26
Speaker
And then I had had a, I had a conversation with the person that was coordinating the program.
00:31:31
Speaker
And she gave me the best gift in the world that she said, Sarah, if now is not the right time, if you are not yet ready to,
00:31:39
Speaker
then don't feel like you need to do this for someone else.
00:31:42
Speaker
This has to be for you.
00:31:45
Speaker
And so I felt this, again, I describe, it's this huge gift of like, oh, I'm not yet ready and it's okay if I take more time.
00:31:52
Speaker
So fast forward, you know, I got married, the world did not end that I did not convert.
00:31:57
Speaker
Then I felt like it would, but it didn't.
00:32:01
Speaker
I went through RCIA just because I'd gotten through a lot of the worries and obstacles and whatever.
00:32:06
Speaker
And I, I joined the church on Easter, you know, at the Easter vigil.
00:32:09
Speaker
It was beautiful, but I felt like I was wearing, I, people were telling me congratulations for becoming Catholic.
00:32:17
Speaker
And I felt like I was wearing someone else's clothes.
00:32:20
Speaker
And so, you know, I knew that I was loved.
00:32:22
Speaker
I knew that I, I didn't have any like concerns that I didn't believe something.
00:32:27
Speaker
But I believed the facts.
00:32:30
Speaker
I didn't believe the mystery of it, the feeling of it.
00:32:36
Speaker
And so fast forward to then, I mean, this is 2013.
00:32:40
Speaker
I was going through a level one training.
00:32:42
Speaker
And I know that this question started from when have you ever been converted from a book program to CGS?
00:32:48
Speaker
Why does that matter?
Adult Spiritual Enrichment
00:32:51
Speaker
But when I was going through my CGS level one training, we were doing a presentation of the preparation of the chalice.
00:32:57
Speaker
So I love that I'm talking to two priests right now because, you know.
00:33:01
Speaker
For me, the preparation of the chalice is the most incredibly mind-blowing moment in the mass.
00:33:09
Speaker
It is amazing.
00:33:11
Speaker
But here I am sitting, I'm crossing this bridge.
00:33:13
Speaker
So I'm, I don't know how old it was, maybe 27, 28, 29 at the time.
00:33:15
Speaker
And
00:33:21
Speaker
They set it out.
00:33:22
Speaker
And again, keep in mind of this method.
00:33:25
Speaker
If we were to only say the preparation of the chalice is, and then fill in the blank, when you found the completed answer, you would feel done as the learner.
00:33:36
Speaker
The mystery, you would have the boxes.
00:33:39
Speaker
The mystery would have been solved.
00:33:40
Speaker
You would have turned the page both in your mind and physically.
00:33:44
Speaker
You would have said, I got the right answer.
00:33:45
Speaker
I'm done.
00:33:46
Speaker
The way that it's presented in CGS is this.
00:33:49
Speaker
You're sitting around a white round table, white tablecloth with two model cruets of a wine.
00:33:56
Speaker
So it's just small pitchers, you know, a wine and a water and then a small model chalice.
00:34:02
Speaker
Now in the mass, we would only ever use, you know, what is it?
00:34:07
Speaker
Unpenetrable metals or whatever material.
00:34:09
Speaker
We use glass so that we can see the liquids combining.
00:34:14
Speaker
So to set the stage, the presentation begins.
00:34:19
Speaker
where the catechist slowly and completely pours the wine, allows for silence.
00:34:28
Speaker
Enough silence so that you see truly every last drop and then sets it down and then picks up the water cruet.
00:34:39
Speaker
Oh, so slowly.
00:34:42
Speaker
The anticipation.
00:34:45
Speaker
One drop and sets it down.
00:34:49
Speaker
allows for silence, and then says, what did you see?
00:34:58
Speaker
And, you know, I don't care if you're an adult or a three-year-old, you saw every last drop of that wine poured out, and you saw the single drop of the water.
00:35:09
Speaker
Okay, well, you know, what might that wine represent?
00:35:18
Speaker
I'm like, oh, well, okay.
00:35:20
Speaker
Jesus.
00:35:21
Speaker
Okay.
00:35:22
Speaker
How much did he, how much of that wine was poured out?
00:35:25
Speaker
How much did he give?
00:35:27
Speaker
All of it.
00:35:28
Speaker
Every last drop.
00:35:31
Speaker
Okay.
00:35:32
Speaker
Well, if the wine represents Jesus, who might that water represent?
00:35:38
Speaker
Now this is what's fun as a catechist because the child might not come to that.
00:35:43
Speaker
It represents Jesus.
00:35:44
Speaker
a person or themselves or humanity, you know, initially, but that's okay.
00:35:49
Speaker
We're giving them enough time to discover it themselves because it is not about them finding the exact right answer in the adult's timeline.
00:35:58
Speaker
It's about them discovering it for themselves.
00:36:01
Speaker
But when they do, you know, oh, oh, the water's us.
00:36:08
Speaker
Could you ever separate that drop of water from that wine?
00:36:14
Speaker
No.
00:36:16
Speaker
You know, so all of a sudden as an adult and also as a child, like, how could I possibly be separated?
00:36:24
Speaker
All of a sudden I had my eyes opened to the richness of the liturgy.
00:36:29
Speaker
Okay.
00:36:30
Speaker
If I'm having my mind blown by just this preparation of the chalice,
00:36:33
Speaker
What other mysteries are there to uncover?
00:36:36
Speaker
And the answer is that there's limitless mysteries to uncover in our faith and in our liturgy.
00:36:45
Speaker
And the importance of that revelation for me wasn't in the fact that I had the information.
00:36:52
Speaker
It was in the fact that I was wondering about it, that I was saying, what else could there be?
00:37:01
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:37:02
Speaker
And so that ownership of faith, that adoption of understanding of belief of faith was what kind of lit my fire.
00:37:14
Speaker
All of a sudden I wasn't wearing someone else's faith to be a compliant person, agreeable person.
00:37:22
Speaker
I was doing it because it was there for me.
00:37:25
Speaker
It was this gift for me from God.
00:37:29
Speaker
And so in terms of this method, you know, and other faith formation models, you know, when we introduce this program to other people and when we were introducing it to this parish, you know, something that I would say a lot was this is not the easiest or cheapest way to do this.
00:37:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:51
Speaker
But it is a way that is effective.
00:37:56
Speaker
And it's offered as gift that must be accepted.
00:38:00
Speaker
And that is so challenging, particularly in
00:38:07
Speaker
parishes that face whether it be financial constraints um just you know we're we're a larger parish and so we don't have the responsibility of only serving 60 kids we have the responsibility of serving 260 kids you know and so the reason that people do choose book programs is the efficiency is the um
00:38:31
Speaker
But the fruits that come with this method are the adult formation or the gift that comes is with the adult formation.
00:38:39
Speaker
And then it's able to be shared.
00:38:42
Speaker
But I think before we were formally discussing today, we were talking about how this is a mustard seed work.
00:38:49
Speaker
Parables are offered in the atrium.
00:38:52
Speaker
You know, as this is a parable is a story that Jesus told that has a deeper mystery to uncover.
00:39:00
Speaker
One of those...
00:39:02
Speaker
one of those parables that's shared to every child from the time they're three to the time they're 12 is the mustard seed.
00:39:09
Speaker
And it reflects the mysteries of the kingdom of God.
00:39:12
Speaker
It also really reflects, you know, the work that we do in CGS is that we are not responsible for providing a comprehensive list of facts to our kids.
00:39:24
Speaker
We are charged with only planting seeds and providing an environment for it to grow.
00:39:30
Speaker
We have to trust that God created them with the capacity to internalize and respond to this love.
00:39:39
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:39:42
Speaker
It's really beautiful and really scary.
00:39:45
Speaker
It is.
00:39:45
Speaker
And I love that you use the language of mystery because I think, unfortunately, in our modern day, I think that's somewhat what's lost is like encountering God is a mystery and we have reduced him to just like facts and information.
00:39:59
Speaker
But I, you know, when I talk to people about the mass or teach about the mass, I talk about
00:40:04
Speaker
how it is encountering mystery.
00:40:06
Speaker
And we had a professor at Mundelein in seminary who would talk about the language of mystery.
00:40:12
Speaker
And the language of mystery is not lectures and essays.
00:40:16
Speaker
Like the language of mystery is, I think he used sign symbol and paradox, sign puzzle and paradox or something like that.
00:40:22
Speaker
But I've adapted it to use like to talk about how we how to encounter mystery, to communicate mystery, we use symbols and story and beauty.
00:40:32
Speaker
And so and how that is incorporated into the mass.
00:40:35
Speaker
And so and it's it's.
00:40:37
Speaker
Yeah, it's not just like, yeah, a dissertation about the theology of God, but it's who is God?
00:40:44
Speaker
Well, come and experience him and come experience him through these symbols, symbols through this beauty, through this encounter with beauty.
00:40:54
Speaker
And let me tell you a story, you know, and then and that's what works on us on such a deeper level, kind of that symbolic contemplation like talking about.
00:41:02
Speaker
I love how you shared the yeah, just the sitting with the symbol of the water and the wine and how.
00:41:08
Speaker
How simple that is just like, oh, you just poured water into wine.
00:41:11
Speaker
But then it really teaches that, like I said before, the symbolic contemplation, like how this is so rich and layered with meaning and allowing the space to really allow that to work on us.
00:41:24
Speaker
It makes the mystery visible.
00:41:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:26
Speaker
Yes.
00:41:27
Speaker
Which is, I mean, that is what we would call sacramentality, right?
00:41:31
Speaker
That's the whole idea of our sacramental worldview as Catholics.
00:41:34
Speaker
It's the mystery made visible to us, you know, tangible and visible.
00:41:39
Speaker
But it's still a mystery.
00:41:40
Speaker
So it also works on us, right?
00:41:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:44
Speaker
So thank you both for sharing.
00:41:46
Speaker
Sarah, I was on the edge of my seat listening to you talk about that simple and small, short demonstration.
00:41:53
Speaker
I will never think of that portion of mass the same way again.
00:41:57
Speaker
I feel like you just took to mystic theology and laced Paw Patrol fruit snacks with it and just like served it to us.
00:42:05
Speaker
Like you...
00:42:08
Speaker
Once again, I think I found the episode title, Rich Food and Small Bites.
00:42:12
Speaker
The other image that came to mind was if you've ever watched dads or families at pools teaching them how to swim, sometimes the dad will chuck them in the water or sometimes they'll teach them how to jump off the side by being in the pool.
00:42:28
Speaker
But what really happens is when the dad or the parent grabs the child's hand and they both jump in together and
00:42:34
Speaker
And then the water overwhelms envelops both of them.
00:42:37
Speaker
And they're both diving headfirst into the mystery.
00:42:40
Speaker
And that's, that's what I really like about this, this method is that you don't you Sarah and Liz and the catechist, you don't know everything.
00:42:49
Speaker
And you're the first ones to admit that.
00:42:51
Speaker
And you're just jumping into the deep end of the pool with the children.
00:42:54
Speaker
And that's really profound way to lead others into the mystery.
00:42:59
Speaker
It's the most comfortable thing.
00:43:01
Speaker
I mean, most comfortable and uncomfortable thing I've ever done with our faith is just knowing that if the child is with us in the atrium, there's not many other better places they can be.
Embracing Wonder and Humility
00:43:14
Speaker
You know, they're there in prayer.
00:43:15
Speaker
They're there hearing, experiencing, feeling loved by the good shepherd.
00:43:19
Speaker
And I don't know it all.
00:43:22
Speaker
And being able, my favorite thing to be able to say is, I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.
00:43:28
Speaker
Because that's not something you hear very often and then are asked to actually wonder about it.
00:43:35
Speaker
The gift of, so being a catechist, I meant to say this earlier, but I'm experienced in the method of CGS as experienced as you can be in something for six years.
00:43:48
Speaker
You know, it's so not relatively, not a lot, but more experienced in CGS than anything else, but I'm very new to ministry.
00:43:55
Speaker
And so I'm having a lot of conversations recently with,
00:43:59
Speaker
of catechists in traditional formats of the pains that they go through and the reasons that they don't want to do it.
00:44:07
Speaker
And one of the reasons, you know, managing behaviors is something that's mentioned all the time.
00:44:14
Speaker
The other things that's talked about is afraid of not knowing, afraid of saying the wrong thing.
00:44:22
Speaker
And, you know, to become a catechist in this method,
00:44:28
Speaker
the reason that catechists are so well prepared is because they invest a number of hours in preparation.
00:44:35
Speaker
And it can seem like an obstacle before you begin.
00:44:40
Speaker
And it seems like such a gift on the other side.
00:44:44
Speaker
Because all of your adult learning, whether you're ever a catechist or not, you don't have to give that back.
00:44:48
Speaker
But in this adult formation, you are released from this expectation of this obstacle of knowingness.
00:44:57
Speaker
Like before I can teach you all of the facts of the Catholic church, I must know all of the facts of the Catholic church.
00:45:05
Speaker
Untrue.
00:45:06
Speaker
You know, you must be willing to wonder because it's all a mystery.
00:45:12
Speaker
We all, we were created in God's image and likeness.
00:45:17
Speaker
But we don't see his full plan.
00:45:21
Speaker
It is slowly unfolding over an unimaginable amount of time.
00:45:27
Speaker
And these mysteries are bigger than we can ever hope to fully understand.
00:45:33
Speaker
So with that caveat, let's just enjoy them and wonder together.
00:45:40
Speaker
And so releasing ourselves from that pressure of fitting God's love and truth into a box is
00:45:46
Speaker
you know, once we, like, if we can get our adults to enter into being a catechist or into being a, just a wondering Catholic themselves of just saying, let's set aside this, this expectation of knowing all of the things and instead really lifting up this concept of wonder and enjoyment of his beauty.
00:46:12
Speaker
All of a sudden the gifts just start unfolding themselves.
00:46:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:16
Speaker
And you're just in constant revelation of the thing that is new that you discovered.
00:46:22
Speaker
And so that is when you're making your mind like a child, like the children come to it really easily.
00:46:30
Speaker
It's never crossed their mind that they need to understand anything when they're a four-year-old.
00:46:35
Speaker
The whole world is unfolding in front of them.
00:46:38
Speaker
And so, I mean, it's pretty telling, like Jesus didn't write to make yourself like the smartest adult in the room.
00:46:43
Speaker
He said to make yourself like a child.
00:46:47
Speaker
And it is that gift of wonder, that gift of curiosity.
00:46:52
Speaker
You know, this method isn't teaching a comprehensive list of facts.
00:46:56
Speaker
It's teaching these fundamentals of
00:47:00
Speaker
What can you wonder about?
00:47:03
Speaker
What essential parts of the mass in the liturgy exist?
00:47:07
Speaker
Understanding what Epiclesis is.
00:47:09
Speaker
That's pretty important.
00:47:10
Speaker
Understanding that the Eucharist, jump in, Liz, what's essential in this work that is taught?
00:47:18
Speaker
The love of the good shepherd.
00:47:19
Speaker
The persistent love of the good shepherd.
00:47:21
Speaker
He knows your name.
00:47:22
Speaker
He will never leave you.
00:47:26
Speaker
calls you to a very special place in a very particular time in the mass.
00:47:30
Speaker
And he calls us all the time to be with him that way.
00:47:34
Speaker
And that it is a profound thing to discover how wanted you are always and forever.
00:47:43
Speaker
And to know that
00:47:46
Speaker
you don't just come to mass.
00:47:48
Speaker
You are desired wholeheartedly to be there with him.
00:47:52
Speaker
For our sacramental prep, it's unsettling to some, the format of CGS sacramental prep, only because it distills back what is the most simple and essential.
00:48:08
Speaker
It presents
00:48:10
Speaker
You know, first reconciliation and first communion kind of in a way of a gate versus a finish line.
00:48:17
Speaker
And so, you know, having an understanding that, you know, just the idea of an examination of conscience, how do we do that?
00:48:26
Speaker
We do it through the maxims.
00:48:27
Speaker
you know, to know how it is to live.
00:48:30
Speaker
But truly stepping back and saying, the most important thing is that God just wants us to remain with him, remain in his love.
00:48:39
Speaker
Okay, how do we do that?
00:48:41
Speaker
Are there ever obstacles that prevent us from remaining in his love?
00:48:45
Speaker
The church gives us a gift to remove those obstacles.
00:48:51
Speaker
And that is in that reconciliation.
00:48:53
Speaker
Now we can learn the way that he wants to live through some of these parables that he told.
00:48:58
Speaker
The parable of the found sheep, the parable of the found coin.
00:49:03
Speaker
You know, did the sheep know it was lost?
00:49:06
Speaker
Maybe, maybe not.
00:49:08
Speaker
Did the coin know that it was lost?
00:49:11
Speaker
Oh, I don't know.
00:49:14
Speaker
But again, with children and adults alike, we're not giving them a comprehensive list of facts.
00:49:20
Speaker
We are helping, we're giving them tools to wonder about the words that God has already given us in the Bible by the liturgy that is
00:49:32
Speaker
celebrated every single week at mass.
00:49:36
Speaker
And so it's, it's all it's so much abstract con concepts that the adults struggle with it more than the kids.
00:49:45
Speaker
But it's, it does reflect the beauty of the church.
00:49:50
Speaker
It definitely is more of an avenue toward
00:49:55
Speaker
let's solidify, let's enhance, let's beautify this relationship before we just make you feel like there's all these rules to being loved by God.
00:50:07
Speaker
And it's like, no, wait a second.
00:50:10
Speaker
That is love is never going away.
00:50:12
Speaker
This is who you are to him.
00:50:15
Speaker
That relationship without rules is where you start to notice, sorry, the rules without relationship is where you notice the departure of the desire to understand, the desire to seek the mysteries.
00:50:33
Speaker
So to me, it's always been, since learning the CGS method for the sacramental prep, is let's make sure that that relationship is strong.
00:50:43
Speaker
That's so important because then they're not rules.
00:50:46
Speaker
It's just a way to live.
00:50:48
Speaker
It's just because you, you know, when you're in relationship with someone, you want that relationship to flourish and to be beautiful.
00:50:55
Speaker
You don't want anything to harm it.
00:50:56
Speaker
And so you're going to do everything possible to make sure you remain right.
Living Through Relationship with God
00:51:02
Speaker
That's, that's what this presents to them and in hopes that we can start at toddler three years old and, you
00:51:09
Speaker
and that that relationship is so strong that their initial response to you, their like right
00:51:15
Speaker
smack you in the face.
00:51:16
Speaker
Hey, no, the good shepherd loves me.
00:51:19
Speaker
He's never gonna, I'm never gonna follow anybody else because that's not my good shepherd.
00:51:23
Speaker
And they'll, they'll just spout all that off to you once they know it.
00:51:26
Speaker
They'll just say, oh no, they would never follow the voice of a stranger.
00:51:31
Speaker
They don't know him.
00:51:32
Speaker
You know, it's like, I hope you, I want you to always remember that.
00:51:36
Speaker
Right.
00:51:37
Speaker
Listen for his voice.
00:51:39
Speaker
So beautiful.
00:51:40
Speaker
I'm glad you brought up the idea that
00:51:42
Speaker
Sarah, and I'm sure Liz would agree too, that you both are as trained as you can be to be catechists.
00:51:49
Speaker
And then Father Kevin and I are technically as trained as we can be to be priests.
00:51:54
Speaker
Like we went through six or seven years of seminary and we say mass every day.
00:51:57
Speaker
Like,
00:51:59
Speaker
The same thing applies to motherhood.
00:52:01
Speaker
And I think any other job or vocation, like, okay, you've given birth, great.
00:52:05
Speaker
You're as trained as you can be to be a mother.
00:52:07
Speaker
But like none of us in this podcast room have all the answers, even though we're technically all trained, you know?
00:52:15
Speaker
So I really think perfection is the enemy of the good.
00:52:18
Speaker
And once again, just to hammer that home that you're probably not ready to lead others, but God didn't ask you to be ready.
00:52:27
Speaker
He asked you to just be faithful, you know, so I'm just going to keep doing it, you know, at this time of year.
00:52:34
Speaker
So our program, our CGS program serves about 160 kids on any given week.
00:52:41
Speaker
And then our parish that's pre-K through sixth grade.
00:52:45
Speaker
We do have an additional 45 kids in a traditional program that we just we can't yet serve.
00:52:50
Speaker
We don't have the catechist for it.
00:52:53
Speaker
But it is the concept of readiness, the concept of being enough is –
00:53:02
Speaker
such a threat to trying and we're so insufficiently, we're so insufficiently prepared.
00:53:11
Speaker
But the thing that's beautiful about this method again, is that rejection of knowingness, that rejection of perfection, if I can say that, but just it's an experimental work.
00:53:25
Speaker
You know, we are going to, you know, provide this room for these children.
00:53:31
Speaker
We are going to follow these basic setups of any given session, but we are going to trust that God is the teacher.
00:53:39
Speaker
And we are going to listen to his words with these kids and provide, again, enough time and enough quiet for the children to respond so that it's not my relationship that I'm putting on you or my faith that I'm putting on you.
00:53:55
Speaker
I'm giving you space to create your own relationship.
00:54:01
Speaker
And I think that's probably the most important hallmark, that gift of time so that they can respond.
00:54:08
Speaker
You know, because at two, three, four years old, they may not have the words to respond right away.
00:54:14
Speaker
So we're going to give them another way.
00:54:15
Speaker
We're going to give them, you know, physical materials for them to work with so they can continue to think about it.
00:54:22
Speaker
We're going to give them basic art supplies so that their response might not be with words.
00:54:27
Speaker
It might be with words.
00:54:29
Speaker
drawings or art or visual representations.
00:54:32
Speaker
As they get older, we're going to, again, we're going to give them age-appropriate lessons.
00:54:40
Speaker
We're going to give them age-appropriate ways of responding so that, again, it's not my faith that I'm putting on you.
00:54:47
Speaker
It is what you are always going to be able to discover for yourself.
00:54:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:52
Speaker
I mean, as a parent, however, I also really appreciated just the
00:54:57
Speaker
Perfection is such an enemy.
00:55:01
Speaker
It is a huge relief to be able to say, I'm not sure, but I know we can, we've got people we can ask or we can look this up.
00:55:09
Speaker
You know, just, I didn't, I didn't necessarily grow up with that mentality.
00:55:12
Speaker
I always felt like I needed to know before I could, you know, tell anyone any other information.
00:55:17
Speaker
I needed to be sure of it.
00:55:19
Speaker
And this work has just opened up that possibility of this mystery is maybe right now is not when I'm supposed to understand this.
00:55:27
Speaker
It's coming.
00:55:28
Speaker
Like it will be revealed in God's time.
00:55:31
Speaker
His time is not our time.
00:55:33
Speaker
At the Parasea.
00:55:34
Speaker
I think there's a Bible verse on that, isn't there?
00:55:38
Speaker
Those ways are not our ways, you know?
00:55:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:41
Speaker
So we, it's just been,
00:55:46
Speaker
a humbling experience, but also such a relief, such a relief to just take a deep breath and know that when my child has a question, I can say, we can figure this out or we can wait and we can, we can listen a little bit more.
00:56:01
Speaker
And for any parent out there listening to this, you know, your children are going to vex you with questions as I'm sure they already have.
00:56:07
Speaker
If they haven't, they will.
00:56:10
Speaker
And it's okay to,
00:56:13
Speaker
to just say, I wonder, I wonder, that's something we can think more about.
00:56:18
Speaker
Let's see if we can find somebody who can shed light on that for us.
00:56:21
Speaker
But to have just the best outlook on any question is, we'll find this together, we'll wonder together.
00:56:30
Speaker
What does father say about that?
00:56:31
Speaker
What does the church say about that?
00:56:33
Speaker
What does the Bible say about that?
00:56:34
Speaker
Instead of having to have your adult contribution of what is the fill in the blank answer?
00:56:42
Speaker
You know, because I mean, we are humans for goodness sake.
00:56:44
Speaker
Like there's so much messiness in how we are and how we respond to things.
00:56:51
Speaker
Let's go.
00:56:52
Speaker
Let's continue to point back to what's essential.
00:56:55
Speaker
What is real?
00:56:56
Speaker
What is true?
00:56:57
Speaker
You know, what is true?
00:56:58
Speaker
Okay.
00:56:59
Speaker
The Bible is true.
00:57:03
Speaker
Very early on in this podcast series, we talked about the Eucharist as the source in the summit, right?
00:57:10
Speaker
And so we came to this image of the mountain and kind of that image of like encountering mystery.
00:57:16
Speaker
It's like encountering this mountain, right?
00:57:18
Speaker
That we can explore, we can discover, but like
00:57:22
Speaker
But just like a mountain, like we can never, you can never wrap your arms all the way around the mountain at one time, right?
00:57:27
Speaker
It's, I mean, you can try and hug a mountain, but you only get so far, but you can shimmy around and move around the mountain and explore, right?
00:57:35
Speaker
The many facets.
00:57:36
Speaker
And you can play on the mountain.
00:57:38
Speaker
Yes.
00:57:38
Speaker
You know, and that's like, it seems a lot of what you're saying is like that invitation to wonder.
00:57:44
Speaker
It's that invitation to encounter mystery, the mystery of that mountain, you know, in this space.
00:57:50
Speaker
that that that is god right and that can be explored in and you know like well i don't know you know where does this trail go well let's see you know i wonder you know let's end this invitation to explore and to experience and encounter like the mystery of god together and and particular way we encounter that as community right in the mass um uh which connects to this whole eucharistic revival thing so um
00:58:16
Speaker
Well, and just the subject matter of your podcast, the Eucharistic revival, you know, the Eucharistic ministry or mystery, you know, how does this, how does the CGS method draw children closer to the mystery of the Eucharist?
00:58:34
Speaker
And we were, Liz and I were talking about that and we were saying, well, it's, it's in the
00:58:41
Speaker
everything.
00:58:41
Speaker
I was like, which presentation do we talk about?
00:58:44
Speaker
Which presentation doesn't point to that?
00:58:47
Speaker
And it's to your point that it's that the Eucharist is the source and summit.
00:58:51
Speaker
So of course, every, there's nothing that isn't relevant.
00:58:56
Speaker
You know, it's all going to be in small bites that stand alone or may, may seem like they stand alone, but you know, like understanding that the, the,
00:59:09
Speaker
the eucharist you know like we're called to the part we're called to the table in a particular way the good shepherd calls us by name to the mass to share in this meal does he only call us does he only call people in cedar falls does he only call people in 2024 who is gathering around this table and to have over the course of years
00:59:32
Speaker
to have children discover on their own that it's not just me.
00:59:37
Speaker
It's not just people that are right here right now.
00:59:40
Speaker
It's all people that ever were, all people that ever will be gathering around this table.
00:59:46
Speaker
We are all invited and we have to respond.
00:59:49
Speaker
We have to respond, but we are all invited.
00:59:53
Speaker
Like, wow.
00:59:56
Speaker
So profound.
00:59:57
Speaker
That's a great,
01:00:00
Speaker
lead into my next question.
01:00:02
Speaker
I have a very dear friend in South Bend, Indiana, who, who does, she's an atrium catechist as well.
01:00:09
Speaker
She's got her own five children and then her atrium children and the she's talked about doing the epiclesis and mimicking those things and doing everything that you just said.
01:00:20
Speaker
So my point is that this is not just a Sarah and Liz Waterloo Cedar Falls area thing like this is
01:00:27
Speaker
This is big.
01:00:28
Speaker
So if someone was listening to this podcast and they thought maybe, maybe I kind of want to try that or maybe I want to start that at my parish.
01:00:37
Speaker
What would be some just the first basic steps of how would you get this sort of thing at your parish or how would you go about getting trained?
Starting a Catechesis Program
01:00:44
Speaker
You would go to the website.
01:00:46
Speaker
It's cgsusa.org, www.cgsusa.org.
01:00:54
Speaker
That's the United States National Organization website.
01:00:58
Speaker
You can find all trainings, any number of parent and parish resources.
01:01:04
Speaker
On a practical side, I would say reach out to someone who is already a catechist.
01:01:11
Speaker
We frequently have people call the parish just to talk about it, just to dip their toe in the water.
01:01:19
Speaker
But I would say that even if you are not yet ready, I'm using my catechist voice.
01:01:24
Speaker
If you are not yet ready to start an atrium at your church, there are a number of book titles that we could recommend that talk about this work in more detail.
01:01:34
Speaker
But attending a catechist formation is, I think, the most important.
01:01:40
Speaker
helpful thing.
01:01:41
Speaker
It'll offer a tremendous amount of adult formation, but it will also prepare you to be a catechist.
01:01:49
Speaker
Insufficiently.
01:01:52
Speaker
Each level of training is substantial.
01:01:55
Speaker
It's the level one training is about 90 hours.
01:01:59
Speaker
And again, on the front side of it, you're saying, how could it possibly take 90 hours to train me to be a catechist for three to six-year-olds?
01:02:06
Speaker
Well, it is training you to be a catechist for three to six-year-olds, but it's also orienting your brain and your heart to wonder.
01:02:15
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
01:02:16
Speaker
and to unfolding the mysteries of the church.
01:02:19
Speaker
It is the most profound faith formation that I have ever gone through.
01:02:25
Speaker
It affected my personal faith.
01:02:26
Speaker
It affected my parenting.
01:02:29
Speaker
affected my relationship with my spouse and all other relationships around how I see other people.
01:02:35
Speaker
Like, um, it's just, it's such a gift, but again, like to, to piggyback on what you said, I'm going to use some of my notes that I wrote.
01:02:44
Speaker
Um, but catechesis of the good shepherd has grown and spread to more than 65 countries in the world.
01:02:51
Speaker
So that is, you know, whether you're in Australia or Columbia or China or the United States or Mexico, whether you are in the most wealthy parish in the world, or, you know, you're a missionary of charity running your CGS atrium out of a van, you know, in the same way that the liturgy
01:03:16
Speaker
of the Catholic church and the plan of God and the love of God is available to all people at all times.
01:03:22
Speaker
Like this work adapts and, and, and feeds humans at their natural level at the way that God made them.
01:03:32
Speaker
And so it's able to be adapted to any number of scenarios.
01:03:40
Speaker
There's been families that we know who you have it in your basement.
01:03:43
Speaker
I mean, if that's something you desire.
01:03:47
Speaker
whatever level you can grasp at it.
01:03:50
Speaker
If you're looking, even being able to observe a working atrium is a really great way just to understand, just to get a glimpse at what is happening.
01:04:00
Speaker
What is happening?
01:04:01
Speaker
What is happening?
01:04:04
Speaker
Sometimes we feel like we have our own language at times.
01:04:06
Speaker
So it's great to actually observe an atrium if you can.
01:04:12
Speaker
There are lots.
01:04:13
Speaker
It's a very big...
01:04:15
Speaker
it's a very, I don't want to say movement, but it's a, it's a, it's a big organization here in Iowa, especially.
01:04:22
Speaker
I mean, I was able to talk to my sister who lives in Southern Indiana about it.
01:04:27
Speaker
And she started one down there.
01:04:28
Speaker
She got trained and started, went down there.
01:04:30
Speaker
So, I mean, it just, it can, it can touch everyone.
01:04:33
Speaker
And it, yeah, their website does a good job of directing you to when there's trainings, where there are atriums in which parishes,
01:04:45
Speaker
So definitely.
01:04:46
Speaker
I will say on a practical level, I mentioned, I think earlier in the episode, Liz was talking about her first encounter with a parish display of when she discovered CGS for the first time.
01:04:57
Speaker
And I was saying that was such a big moment in my life is that we started with three people in our catechist center program.
01:05:05
Speaker
And we built this atrium.
01:05:06
Speaker
It's a lot of work.
01:05:07
Speaker
We were tired.
01:05:10
Speaker
We were also isolated.
01:05:11
Speaker
We weren't,
01:05:12
Speaker
we weren't necessarily digging into a deeper community.
01:05:15
Speaker
We saw it as work, not as community, or, you know, we saw the pressure of a deadline.
01:05:23
Speaker
The best thing that you can do for yourself if you want to learn more about this work is to get to know people that are in this work.
01:05:29
Speaker
It, you know, we are companions on a journey, you know, we are, we are doing this and you know, you're doing it right when you find joy and peace.
01:05:40
Speaker
And that's an indicator in the atrium if a child is receiving something well, joy and peace.
01:05:48
Speaker
If they're unsettled, we as adults are charged with the question of why.
01:05:53
Speaker
And so if in the catechism that you're offering in your parish right now, you're not finding joy and peace,
01:06:01
Speaker
ask why.
01:06:02
Speaker
It doesn't mean it needs to be fixed instantly, but we do, we should ask why, you know, if you're starting this program in your parish and you're not feeling joy and peace, ask why.
01:06:14
Speaker
Surround yourself with more people.
01:06:15
Speaker
I laugh because it's just, it's such a big work and it's such a reflection of how we live that it's, it's never perfect.
01:06:23
Speaker
And if you can't laugh about it,
01:06:25
Speaker
you're in trouble.
01:06:26
Speaker
I want to say too, just you saying, you know, if not just in your atrium, but even in your life, you are not finding joy
Hearts as Atriums: Spiritual Discipline
01:06:33
Speaker
and peace.
01:06:34
Speaker
Let us keep searching and maybe, maybe finding a CGS atrium and getting to know this work, maybe we'll bring some to you.
01:06:43
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:43
Speaker
Wouldn't you say that the,
01:06:45
Speaker
The atrium, the prepared space that we set up for the children to enter, shouldn't our hearts really be an atrium and be a prepared space for Jesus to come in?
01:06:57
Speaker
Because if I'm really in my own recent years of my own addiction recovery and life, I've just...
01:07:06
Speaker
Just completely thrown at my hands to the fact that I am a toddler.
01:07:09
Speaker
You know, I need to go to bed at the same time.
01:07:10
Speaker
I need to make certain meals at the same time.
01:07:13
Speaker
I say mass at a certain time.
01:07:15
Speaker
I'm a toddler and I need routine.
01:07:17
Speaker
And I think prayer and discipline and all those things are like that.
01:07:20
Speaker
So if our hearts are atriums, then Jesus can just come in and play with what he wants to.
01:07:29
Speaker
I wonder.
01:07:34
Speaker
And with that, we're at an hour and we're coming to the end of our episode.
01:07:39
Speaker
So thank you so much.
01:07:41
Speaker
And let us continue to be oriented towards wonder, especially towards the Eucharistic mystery.
01:07:47
Speaker
And thank you so much for what you guys are doing and for your own yes to the Lord, especially in building up this program.
01:07:53
Speaker
that is orienting both children and adults more towards wonder and towards the Eucharistic mystery.
01:07:59
Speaker
So thank you.
01:08:02
Speaker
See you in the Eucharist.
01:08:03
Speaker
See you soon, all people of all times.
01:08:05
Speaker
Thank you.