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8: What Is A Carmelite?
27 Plays20 days ago
Martha Hanley and Gineal Schrunk, two real live Carmelites, join us today to explain what a Carmelite is, what it isn't, and how they incorporate the spirituality of saints like Teresa of Ávila, John of the Cross, and Thérèse of Lisieux into their daily lives.
https://iacarmeliteseculars.wordpress.com/
Fire Within: St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross and the Gospel-On Prayer
Fr. Thomas Dubay S.M. 1989 - ISBN-10: 0898702631 - ISBN-13: 978-0898702637
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Podcast
00:00:16
Speaker
Hello, everyone. My name is Father Jacob Rouse, and I am the pastor of Notre Dame Parish in Cresco, Iowa. And welcome to the Dubuqueristic Revival podcast, season two. Because that's the name we're going with.
00:00:30
Speaker
We're still going with it after all this time. um all this time. Who is i you, co-host? who I am co-host, Father Kevin Earlywine, pastor St. Patrick's in Hampton and St. Mary's in Ackley. And happy to be here.
00:00:43
Speaker
Very good. Today we have an exciting topic.
Focus on Carmelite Spirituality
00:00:47
Speaker
We've talked about Franciscan spirituality, and now we're going to learn about Carmelite spirituality, what that is, what it means, and who is involved
Guests' Backgrounds and Experiences
00:00:56
Speaker
with it. Our two guests tonight are Martha Hanley and Janiel Shrunk. And I would like, ah Martha, welcome to the podcast. Can you introduce yourself and um where you live? And I guess in brief, how are you connected to Carmelite-ism?
00:01:15
Speaker
Thanks, Father Jacob. I'm Martha Hanley. I live in Cedar Rapids. I'm a member of St. Pius X Parish, and I've been a member of the Carmelite community that meets in Cedar Rapids for probably 30 years.
00:01:31
Speaker
um I've been associated with it ever since it wasn't a community when it was just ah a study group. So i've it's definitely part of my life now, big part of my life.
00:01:46
Speaker
All right. My name is Janiel Shrunk. I'm actually Martha's neighbor down the road a little bit. um I am fresh out of formation is how I would say it with the secular Carmelites. So I've been going to meetings and going through the formation process for a number of years, not quite 30.
00:02:07
Speaker
But nonetheless, that's how I'm connected with Carmelite spirituality directly is just through going through the formation process. um When I'm doing other things, i'm also I teach high school. I teach at Xavier in Cedar Rapids. I teach in the social studies department there. and yeah so I'm just a Cedar Rapids Catholic. I kind of hop around parishes here or there, but for for the most part, I'm a St. Wenceslaus person myself.
00:02:36
Speaker
How long have you taught at Xavier? So I'm in year 13. 13 years, four state championships for football so far. You know, and counting here. And so, yeah. So for 13 years, I've been at Xavier, which is kind of mind boggling. I never thought I'd do anything for 13 years straight.
00:02:56
Speaker
But it's kind of cool to like actually go to school. for a major and actually use it. And so at least I feel I can get my money's worth out of all of those random history classes I took back in the day.
00:03:10
Speaker
Definitely. Well, that what what an accomplishment. i um I only did four years at Xavier, but that was to learn the stuff. Yeah, you were expiated. you know The Holy Spirit had other plans for you.
00:03:22
Speaker
Yeah, because I went to high school there for our listeners. um So here we are, this merry band of Carmelites.
Origins and History of the Carmelite Order
00:03:30
Speaker
um I guess let's first, what is Carmel and Carmelite? What does that mean exactly?
00:03:39
Speaker
Oh, Father Jacob, I just want to say, i um I've eaten some caramels made by nuns oh from Dubuque. So are they Carmelites? Because they make caramels? They could be, yes. So the guests here are going to be talking about confections and chocolates.
00:03:53
Speaker
Yeah, except those are actually Trappistine sisters. Right. That is a common... It's confusing that Trappistine sisters make caramels, not the Carmelites. But yeah we'll get into that. What is a Carmelite? And that it's a common misperception, Father father Kevin. Sure.
00:04:09
Speaker
So I'll start, Janil, and you can add this one. So Carmel, the Carmelites are part of an ancient order that's been around for about a thousand years. um It was reformed in the 16th century, and it's still flourishing. You know, it still is a really pretty robust family of,
00:04:37
Speaker
priests who are known as friars, nuns who are enclosed like like the Trappistines are cloistered, so are all of our nuns cloistered, and and then lay people known as seculars. Janil introduced herself as a secular, so we're known as secular Carmelites, and there are about 40,000 of us around the world.
00:04:57
Speaker
um but All the branches of that family share the same spiritual possessions, the same call to holiness, and the same mission.
00:05:09
Speaker
Janelle, do you want to say more?
00:05:12
Speaker
Yeah, so I just, um as a history person myself, like I said, I teach history. I really like to think of the history of different religious communities, and especially just of our church in general, and how like, the roots are so ancient. It's it's just kind of, it's it's fun for me to think through that.
00:05:30
Speaker
And so I think of, you know, like the Franciscans, they have a really prominent founder, you know, St. Francis or St. Dominic for the Dominicans. or St. Benedict, but the Carmelite order is a little bit, um you know, it grew a little bit different, which is kind of cool, but we like to hearken our roots way back to the Old Testament, even with the prophet Elijah a little bit there. And so Martha, I'm just like, I, you know, it's late. It's not my brain is, I'm just going to make excuses for the fact that I don't know as much as you. So I'm going to fact check myself a little bit, but actually like the word Carmel would go back to the Old Testament. That's right, Martha.
00:06:08
Speaker
Right, because the the original Carmelites were hermits who, they were there were disaffected crusaders who left left the service and and settled on Mount Carmel, which is, i think, south of, close to Haifa, so they're still Mount Carmel. And they settled in near the Fountain of Elijah. And in fact, during the Middle Ages, when there was concern about, know,
00:06:38
Speaker
suppressing so many, you know, so many orders were flourishing. And there was a concern that that perhaps the Carmelite order might be suppressed because I guess it was hard to keep track of all the orders that were popping up.
00:06:50
Speaker
And so the Carmelites said, you can't get rid of us because we are the oldest order in the world. We go all the way back to Elijah, which is a little apocryphal, but it but it saved them and saved their saved their skin. So they got to to stay. Mm-hmm. stay um as one of the mendicant. So there were four mendicant orders and When the hermits left Mount Carmel because, and run out by by the Saracens, um and went back to Europe, they tried to live as hermits, but couldn't survive that way, so they became mendicants. So it became one of the four mendicant orders. To say the name Carmelite doesn't have to do with candy. Darn it, no. Confections has to do with the biblical Mount Carmel in the Bible where it that's, ah
00:07:40
Speaker
connected, as you said, to the story of Elijah who went and prayed there. And I don't, it might be in some other biblical stories too, but I know it is associated with Elijah particularly, and it overlooks the sea.
00:07:51
Speaker
I know. Has either of you been there? I know. yeah Yes. I have been there. I have had the the joy of going there and going to the monastery that's there. And I believe we had mass there.
00:08:03
Speaker
When I was in seminary, we did a pilgrimage to Israel. And so we saw Mount Carmel. And it's interesting because Mount Carmel itself, it's actually, i mean, we think of a kind of a singular mountain that kind of comes to a point, but Mount Carmel is actually kind of a long, it's almost like not a range, but it's kind of a, almost kind of like a long snaky of a mountain. So like on one end is the, the, the end edge of Mount Carmel that overlooks the sea. um But, and that's where the monastery is. But then if you kind of go on the other end of Mount Carmel, which is a couple miles away, Then there's another church dedicated to Elijah as well. Okay.
Reformation and Branches of the Carmelites
00:08:42
Speaker
Oh, lovely. That's very exciting. Yeah. What he said. ah um the So the four mendicant orders, we've learned in a previous episode about the Franciscans.
00:08:56
Speaker
We mentioned the Dominicans, which would have gotten their lead from Dominic. The Augustinians from St. Augustine. And then now the Carmelites, which,
00:09:07
Speaker
We are positing here that it is much older because it doesn't go back to a St. Carmel. it goes back to the mountain, the historical and archaeological mountain of Carmel. So that's quite a claim to fame that say that you're the oldest mendicant order, that you're part of that. What a what a great thing and what a great tradition.
00:09:27
Speaker
There are two Carmelite orders. One is the Carmelite Order of the Ancient Observance, and they're the ones who claim Elijah. And and in fact, they um the Ocarms, as they're called, really have a devotion to Elijah. He's a big figure for them.
00:09:46
Speaker
But in the 16th century, Teresa of Avila or Teresa of Jesus and John of the Cross reformed that order for various reasons. So Janiel and I belonged to that reform and they're called the Diskelst Carmelites or OCDs. So we're we're OCDs and it's the you know that's it's it's a Latin name. So we we go by OCDs.
00:10:15
Speaker
So we we can't we really can't claim those deep roots, but we're we're close cousins.
00:10:23
Speaker
I would say, though, I think we can claim one of the coolest like mottos, though. So do either of our ordained here know the motto for the Carmelite order? i do not. No, I don't.
00:10:36
Speaker
Okay. It's, with zeal, I've been zealous for the Lord God of hosts. I feel like that's that's in the content. I don't know. I'm not the judge of these things, but I'm just saying innately, I feel like that has to be the coolest one.
00:10:49
Speaker
That's very Maccabean.
Carmelite Community Formation in Cedar Rapids
00:10:52
Speaker
Maccabean? Yeah, they have a lot of zeal in the in the Maccabees in the books. Yeah, it's been a vibe this last week listening to the Maccabees in the readings. Daily mass readings, yeah.
00:11:07
Speaker
I was just saying when I first joined, it was a bit of a like a little confusing. I'm like, there's two types of Carmelites. And so I learned that when you're talking about like the lay branch or like the not monks or nuns, when you're talking about the reformed, which I am a member, were secular Carmelites.
00:11:26
Speaker
But if you were a lay member of the ah ancient observant, you are a third order Carmelite. So just like you're an insider now. We're giving you just like behind the scenes.
00:11:38
Speaker
We're here for you. in case you ever get confused, there's O-Carms that have the third order Carmelites. And then the Reformed Carmelites, if you will, have the secular Carmelites.
00:11:51
Speaker
You're welcome. I know that was really important for you to know. There are lay Carmelites in Iowa City and in Des Moines. And there are OCDS in Cedar Rapids and Sioux City in Iowa.
00:12:07
Speaker
So there's quite a- Remind us again that OCDS, what does it stand for? The Order of Discalced Carmelite Seculars in Latin, which I can't- I can't quote for you. There you go. Well, gives us so and you andnna lose No shoes, right?
00:12:28
Speaker
Yeah, it it means means barefoot because when Teresa started her reform, the emphasis was on poverty. Because St. Clair appeared to her in a vision and said, you must be founded in poverty.
00:12:44
Speaker
So they wore They wore common sandals instead of regular shoes. We don't have to do that. Okay. I was just going to ask, you have barefoot meetings? No one is asking for barefoot meetings, believe me. No one is asking for that.
00:13:05
Speaker
It might be a little overwhelming ah to be new to all this and and then think, then I mean, we just basically verbally described a ah massive system of tree roots of different mendicant orders and then even the Carmelites having two different offshoots or traditions. Just...
00:13:22
Speaker
just let that be listener. Just let it wash over you. The, the immense tradition and richness of history that we have as Catholics. um You can try to figure it out. But I think the Holy spirit will help you do that in, in your own time. So for right now, we're just going to talk about the reformed Carmelites.
00:13:44
Speaker
So um in the 1960s, there were three women living in Cedar Rapids who took would they traveled regularly to the Bettendorf Carmel because there was a Carmelite monastery in Bettendorf, which is one of the Quad Cities.
00:14:02
Speaker
They formed as as secular Carmelites and came home and lived their lives. And in the late eighty s early 90s, there were a number of people who saw a little ad about this big in a publication called spiritual life that was entitled.
00:14:25
Speaker
Are you interested in the Carmelite order in Carmelite spirituality? And they responded and they started being formed by people all over the country. And of course, this was before internet um and And so email and so people living in Texas would write out questions for the people being formed here. They'd send the say send them snail mail and people would respond, send them back. And so that's how they were formed.
00:14:59
Speaker
um They found one another. It's sort of like moles finding one another. I think the Holy Spirit must have wanted this to happen. So they came together, got permission from the central province, we're we're part of the Oklahoma province of the Carmelite secular, I discuss Carmelites, got permission to meet, to be a study group.
00:15:21
Speaker
to be a group in discernment and in and then there were all kinds of things that had to happen. There had to be so many people in Definitive Promise. There had to be so many members. There had to be a spiritual assistant. There had to be elected officers.
00:15:38
Speaker
We could apply for canonical establishment, which we did. um We had to ask the Bishop of Dubuque for permission to locate here because there at that time, there were no Carmelites in this diocese archdiocese.
00:15:55
Speaker
But we also had to ask the friars of the Oklahoma province to be juridically responsible for us. So all that, all that was done by 2004. And so we're, we're legitimately here.
00:16:16
Speaker
And we could welcome fine people like Janiel. Yeah. So just because I'm a person who likes to learn. So if there is a random group, let's just say in Wisconsin, because obviously there's not enough Catholics in Wisconsin. So i say there's a bunch of random cheese eating Wisconsinites who wanted to start a secular community, a community of secular Carmelites.
00:16:39
Speaker
You said they have to be a study group first. And then once they're big enough, their group, what is the actual, you just said it, but could you just say it one more time, but slower for me? So if like the Wisconsinites wanted to start it, what's the process really quick?
00:16:53
Speaker
Sure. It was, so we, so we could meet, um, we could meet very casually and nobody would ever know, you know, but we, We could talk about Carmelite spirituality because we know Carmelite spirituality is for everybody. It's open to anybody who's interested in our saints and our spirituality. But if you if you want to be recognized by the order, then yeah, you form a study group formally, so you get permission to do that. then i And I'm a little
Personal Journeys to Joining the Carmelites
00:17:24
Speaker
fuzzy on it, but I think the next step is to become a group in discernment, and then you apply for canonical establishment.
00:17:33
Speaker
So we've been officially canonically established in this diocese since 2004. Perfect. OK, thank you. Because sometimes like I've heard it once or twice, but you don't learn it always on the first go around.
00:17:48
Speaker
So speaking of, Janil, how did you find this Carmelite group? um Well, as always, it was a friend of a friend, sort of speak. So every once in a while, the community that meets out is St. Pius in Cedar Rapids. That's where we have our monthly meetings. So St. Pius, they'll do different events here or there.
00:18:10
Speaker
Like last year, we had someone come and talk about one of the Carmelite saints, St. Edith Stein. And so people came for that. But in my own experience, bumping into them, i first bumped into them where they had just an afternoon on ah a Sunday or Saturday where they're going to have mass and then just some talks on like, I think it was the interior castle or one of the Carmelite writings, I believe. And I was just like, Oh, shut up. Here I am. Like I want to go to mass. And so I remember just going to mass and then listening to some talks, eating some cookies and just living my best life. But I just, you know, after the talks, I just went into the church for a little time of prayer before,
00:18:53
Speaker
I lived, ah you know, i went home. But at that time of prayer, was just like peace was just flooding, like just so much peace. And I never connected the dots originally being like, I think the Lord's might be calling me to become a secular Carmelite. But when I just even first bumped into them, like attending um some of the talks and attending a mass, like the peace was real evident, like in your face, like I was a cat in a sunbeam, just soaking it up sort of peace.
00:19:22
Speaker
And so that's where I originally ran into them. So I knew they existed. And then i would say probably three or four years later, um I was discerning religious life myself. So just discerning, you know, what the call of the Lord is upon my life. And I had such a heart for prayer.
00:19:41
Speaker
i had such um like a yearning for like the one thing necessary, just that relationship with Christ, that it was it was getting a little confusing because I had discerned religious life. At one point, I i had lived with a community. um So not as an entrance into the order, but there was a program where you could go and kind of get formation for a year at ah a community. So I kind of was really discerning religious life, but the more I was praying, the clearer the Lord was that he wasn't calling me to religious life.
00:20:16
Speaker
But the issue was I had such a heart for it because in my head, a life of prayer, a life of like very, um, very much focused on like contemplation, very much focused on, um, just that unity with Christ that comes with prayer in my head, that that's what monasteries are for, right? That's what convents are for. And so for a while, I just got to sit there, not knowing what was going on, having this very intense desire for a life of prayer, but also getting more and more clarity that I wasn't called to the convent.
00:20:48
Speaker
And so it took about a year and then it was just a, just a unique grace is what I call it. I was in adoration Just trying to minding my own business, you know, as they say, and it just became really clear in my heart that I think, you know, the Lord was inviting me to think about or to become, if you will, a secular Carmelite, a term I didn't, I couldn't articulate at the time. And so because I had run into them in the past, I'd known they existed.
00:21:16
Speaker
And so it was just kind of, you know, a web of like, I called my friend's mom who was friends with a lady who I think was a secular Carmelite. So just made some awkward phone calls and Connected with the community that way. But once again, it's one of those things that you don't really know. i mean, I don't think, you know, simply because of the secular nature of these different groups, it usually is you have to know somebody before you really realize they exist, apart from, of course, listening to beautiful podcasts produced by very... Well intentioned and very talented, dare I say, ah priests of God.
00:21:52
Speaker
And so yeah, it was really one of those things. It's everybody has a different story. Like Martha mentioned, some people might have realized secular Carmelites exists because it was in a publication Or, you know, the Lord just works his way. So even just talking to you right now, I'm like, I wonder, you know, I don't, I got, I got no Holy Spirit, you know, direct connection here. But I wonder, you know, just like a podcast like this, somebody might hear it in passing.
00:22:18
Speaker
And then later on, if the Lord's moving in their hearts, they might consider looking at secular Carmelites or who knows what. So it's always these little things. These little seeds are just kind of broadcasted around and you never know which one's going to stick.
00:22:32
Speaker
But yeah, that's for me. I met them, like I said, through, ah bumped into them when they were hosting a talk. And then later on in prayer, when it really came, you know, bubbled over, if that made sense, I was able to connect because of, like I said, a friend's mom's friend.
00:22:49
Speaker
That's my story. That's so beautiful. I've never heard that story. Janelle, it's very touching. I got ah a got all sorts. you know if you're The Holy Spirit does some fun things. And so every once in a while, you you get ah you get to realize what's going on. You're like, I see what you did there. Half the time I'm not paying attention. But when you pay attention, sometimes you get some awesome Holy Spirit stories.
00:23:15
Speaker
one of One of my favorite Carmelite writer writers is Father Marie Eugene, Blessed Marie Eugene. He says, the Holy Spirit is a disconcerting friend. You never know.
00:23:28
Speaker
I like that. a disconcerting friend that the Holy Spirit is. no Yeah, I just to share because like we're're we're loving Carmelites today. um i love, you know, like St. John of the Cross, who is one of the original reformers, right? Love you got to love on St. John of the Cross. But he always ah talks about, you know, the the soul is being a bride.
00:23:50
Speaker
And I'm a girl, I'm a fan of brides. I've watched, you know, Say Yes to the Dress. Too much of my life was spent early on doing that. And I always think of the image of a bride, right? The bride wears a veil.
00:24:02
Speaker
So if you're a bride, right? A bride, like not just a bride of Christ in the sense of like vocationally, like i'm I'm called to be religious, but like a bride in the sense of like, that's like, you're just uniquely and intensely loved by Christ. you just have to know you're going wearing a veil, right?
00:24:20
Speaker
You got, but you know, you got God, the father walking you every step of the way, but we always see dimly. So it's kind of one of those things about, you know, discerning something as odd to me as becoming a secular Carmelite. It's just like, it's another way that you get a stretch in trust of being like, what is this? Is this really what you're calling me to? Anytime you have to discern something, it's really going to be an act of trust,
00:24:45
Speaker
when you when you take that next step.
00:24:50
Speaker
So what then is entailed, maybe this is a good transition to practically, what does it mean or what does it look like on a practical level to be a part, to be a a secular
Practices and Commitments of Secular Carmelites
00:25:02
Speaker
Carmelite? Like, like what do you guys do and Do you just meet and just like, you know, talk about your favorite Carmelite saint or is there something more involved? uh we we already established you don't meet you don't go barefoot when you meet so correct by being discalph talk a little bit about that like practically what does it mean to be a secular carmelite and what does that entail well we have what are called the six m's and these were um these were developed in the early 2000 by
00:25:36
Speaker
a diocesan priest who actually became a Carmelite friar and then took responsibility for all of the seculars around the world. So he was on the road all the time and he realized that our constitutions needed to be updated. and and a lot of our thinking about what it meant to be a secular had to align with Vatican II, thinking about the role of laity in the church.
00:26:02
Speaker
um But he just he developed this shorthand method for thinking about what what we do. And i I had to write them down because I always forget one of them. I might practice them, but I but i don't always remember. And the first is Mary, because this is a Marian order.
00:26:21
Speaker
The brothers on Mount Carmel called themselves the Brothers of Our Lady, and they had a chapel dedicated to her where they'd meet to say the Liturgy of the Hours. um And so one of the things we knew need to do every day is make an active devotion to Mary. And that can be saying a rosary. It can be saying a Hail Mary. It can be saying, I love you, Mary. It's very individual. But Mary is, she is our sister. In Carmel, we think of her, you know, of course, we can think of her however we'd like.
00:26:53
Speaker
But we think of her as our so as our sister and the lady of the house. um The next is meditation. So we're asked to meditate 30 minutes every day.
00:27:06
Speaker
And that's that's that's part of our statutes for the United States. In Malaysia, for instance, I'm not sure, but they might meditate. Their statutes might say you need to meditate meditate for three hours every day.
00:27:23
Speaker
But fit our that was to fit the culture here. So 30 minutes every day. Morning prayer, say morning prayer, evening prayer, and if possible, night prayer.
00:27:35
Speaker
We go to meetings, and that's relatively new, even since I entered, um because it used to be that you could be an isolate, you could just live your Carmelite life and not go to meetings, but that's not possible anymore. they They want us to live in community because...
00:27:54
Speaker
that brings many joys and some challenges and they want us to experience that because it's it forms us living in community forms us. um How about that?
00:28:08
Speaker
I doubled Mary. um So I'm missing one Mary's. um I know where i put it here. um Mass we're asked to go to daily mass.
00:28:23
Speaker
If possible with always, there's nothing harsh about Carmelite spirituality. And that goes back to the the rule of St. Albert that that the original hermits were given.
00:28:34
Speaker
If it is possible, do this. if it If you can, do that. It's nothing... There's no violence about it. No, you know, austerity. In fact, Teresa wouldn't let her nuns get up at three in the morning to pray. She said, you need your rest. We're not going to get up till 530.
00:28:54
Speaker
um But then and then the the last M is mission. So and we share the same mission as the friars and the nuns. So and that mission is to know God so he can be known.
00:29:08
Speaker
So that that's pretty much how we live our daily lives. um but it's just a skeleton. you know We're also asked to do spiritual reading, but you know we recognize that if we're not doing spiritual reading every day, we sort of lose the lose the the flame. you know We lose that that love of caramel, that ability to um reorient ourselves when we have crises or hard times. We need to be in touch with our saints in their writings.
00:29:41
Speaker
Janelle, look like you're going to say something. Oh, I just have lots of things in my head. So just to clarify, so like when the Carmelite community first started, you know, back with the Crusaders, back on Mount Carmel, they were living this, you know, way of life, but they needed an actual rule, which means like a document that actually states what we're about.
00:30:04
Speaker
And so St. Albert, is the person who brought that rule first, of course, to the to the hermits, if you will, living on Mount Carmel. And so that rule is what, in a sense, the document that threads together the nuns, the brothers or the friars, and the secular Carmelites. And so everyone kind of has as a basis, like a constitution. That's a bad word to use because we'll have another word for the constitution. rule It's the document, the rule that unites us.
00:30:31
Speaker
And then after that, there's like a constitution. And then after that, there's statutes. So just like any group that exists, especially a group that's literally worldwide, there's secular Carmelites all over the place.
00:30:42
Speaker
There has to be, you know, there has to be documents. There has to be things called statutes, you know, And so it goes, in my head at least, it goes the rule, and then there's constitutions, and then there's statutes.
00:30:54
Speaker
Is that the right order? I think so. Yeah, and and I would say the meetings are once a month. And so as somebody who lives in Cedar Rapids and has the meeting in Cedar Rapids, It's like Saturday morning, more or less. So once a month, Saturday mornings. And so the meetings absolutely create community, which is, like I said, it's it's a really one of the one of the big blessings of being a secular Carmelite is finding other people who kind of get it.
00:31:25
Speaker
Because, you know, even I'm thinking within my immediate family, just siblings and stuff, I don't think all of them ever, I don't think I've even mentioned it to some of them. Because simply I'm like, you're not going to get it.
00:31:37
Speaker
Um, I think, you know, my dad thinks it's maybe like a book club or something, you know? Um, so it's one of these things where, um, it's, it's really beautiful to go to a meeting and have somebody who understands you.
00:31:52
Speaker
Um, you know, it's a big age range. Um, it's men and women. It's people from, of course, near this area, but we have some outliers coming in from around Des Moines that come in as well. And so it's really cool for somebody, you know, to meet with a group that really kind of gets your heart. Because for a lot of us, like this is really something that we've been formed in, in the sense of through the community and through actually going through a process of formation where you know, you're reading different, um, works, ah Carmelite works. Um, you're, you're, you're going one-on-one with the formator, just like any other formation you would see kind of in religious life for other, you know, third orders or other lay people within these communities.
00:32:37
Speaker
But like, it's really ah a blessing to have a community where you really feel like you are understood, right. That with what's in your heart as somebody who really, um,
00:32:49
Speaker
has a imperfect practice, but ah hopefully a determined heart to continue to practice prayer, you're you're understood. Like they get it. And that's really it's really a gift. So I would just mention that with the meetings. It's it's nothing too insane. it's It's once a month for like the full morning.
00:33:10
Speaker
And I've heard it said that people don't become Carmelites. They discover that they are Carmelites, that they were born Carmelites. And it's that it's that yearning to to come close to the divine through prayer.
00:33:30
Speaker
And um i think you you know I think we get to the meeting, we say, yes, we're all here for the same reason. um But what does a what does a meeting look like? You know, we arrive at 8.15, we say morning prayer at 8.30.
00:33:47
Speaker
We do, this is this is new and we were, so we make promises of poverty, chastity, and obedience. So we're we're bound by obedience to the provincial council, to the father provincial, to the father general in Rome.
00:34:04
Speaker
But we were asked to, um, spend a half hour, half hour of mental prayer. We were asked to incorporate that into our meetings a couple of years ago. So we have mental prayer and then we have, um, a book it's called community formation that everybody in the community is reading.
00:34:25
Speaker
And lately, actually for the last three years, that's been a ah study of Teresa Lucio's work because she had so many anniversaries. So the whole order, friars, nuns, and seculars were reading all of her works together.
00:34:41
Speaker
And then we have fellowship, we have break, and that can be no less than a half hour and that's coming from the order. Because as Teresa said, all must be friends, all must be loved, all must be held dear, all must be helped. So it's not only friendship with the Lord, it's also friendship with one another.
00:35:01
Speaker
then Then we have a business meeting and then we break into individual formation groups. So those of us who have been definitively professed are reading another book and we discuss part of that. There's we have an aspirant. So he goes off with with, you know, a seasoned Carmelite to to do the prescribed reading and discussion. And then we have someone in formation to first promise and we have two visitors now. So.
00:35:31
Speaker
Wow, I didn't realize you made promises. Yeah, we do. there sentences Was there a sort of um ah liturgical consecration or some sort of ritual in front of people when you consecrated or when you made these promises?
00:35:52
Speaker
There's a rite. um for each of the promises. So there's a for a temporary promise, which happens after three years of formation. And then after another three years of formation, there's a definite, it's called definitive promise. So it's, we'll say it's for the rest of our lives. And so we're promising fidelity, promising to practice poverty, chastity, obedience, and to live by the Beatitudes. So it's not real complicated, but um
Promises vs. Vows in the Carmelite Order
00:36:24
Speaker
Yeah, there is. And then there is a possibility of vows. I think you have to be in definitive promise for three years, but it's not required. Only a couple of people in our community have made vows.
00:36:37
Speaker
So just to clarify, a promise is something like you make to people. Like, I promise I'll be on time, right? So a promise, we're making promises to the community. We're making promises to the Carmelite order.
00:36:49
Speaker
ah You know, the sisters, the nuns, the friars, they're making vows. So you vow to God. So if you break your vow to God, that's a little bit different than breaking a promise to a person. So just simply as a secular Carmelite, we're not...
00:37:05
Speaker
it's just absolutely not the same vocation as as a friar or as a religious sister. And like I said, i definitely went through what I feel like is a forever discernment with discerning if I'm called to become a religious.
00:37:23
Speaker
And so something that was really clear, very straight up from the beginning is this is different. it's It's a unique calling. It's certainly not a calling to be vowed in the same way as like a religious sister would.
00:37:36
Speaker
And so it is, it's a unique calling. If the Lord wanted to me to be a sister, he would have made that clear. But like, you know, he designed my heart, whatever you want to say, um not to be in a cloister, but to be in a target, to be in a Chipotle to wherever it is I happen to be that day, you know, he designed this vocation to be a bit different. So just to clarify, um we're not doing vows that are like on the same level as a religious sister.
00:38:07
Speaker
It's instead promises and the promises aren't to God, they're to a community. And so there definitely is a distinction. But people who make vows do make them to God.
00:38:18
Speaker
And if for some reason they have to be released, if for some reason they desire to be released from the vow, that request goes to Rome. Yeah. So that, will like she said, it's not everyone, but those who feel so called. And I believe it's not to up it's not a vow to poverty. It's a vow to chastity and obedience. Is that correct?
00:38:40
Speaker
That's right. Yeah. For those who are so called. And like she had mentioned, it's not everybody. It's just, you know, whatever the Holy Spirit's moving in their hearts. So we like to confuse people, but hopefully we try the best to make it clear.
00:38:55
Speaker
yeah. What's an example for you both living out the promise of poverty? I have an example. so um So once again, um ah it sounds like a cop-out to say poverty is like detachment, poverty of spirit. But it's not, it's actually quite, um it's something that you're constantly kind of trying to think through and practice.
00:39:20
Speaker
So for example, I'm going to be going to my parents' home over Thanksgiving break here soon. I'm dating this podcast. Oh my gosh, look at me do this. But the idea is like I was going to go online and buy a photo scanner. Right. So I could help my parents scan some of their photos, whatever, like the old family photos. And it wouldn't have been a big deal. Like, I feel like Jesus would have been and pleased with that. But like a little part of my heart's being like, that would be the easy thing to do. Right.
00:39:51
Speaker
But like, let's think through this a little bit. And so, you know, i was like, okay, you know, going online, chat GPT, Cedar Rapids, photo scanning, whatever. And I found, oh my gosh, there's like a $650 photo scanner at the public library.
00:40:08
Speaker
And so I'm like, okay, here we go. I'm gonna bring the photos back. Then I scheduled a time at the library. And once again, this is a silly thing, but it's it's one of those things you think through of like, okay, it would I have the money to do it. I have the convenience of going online and going to Amazon and just ordering this thing. But part of me is like, one, it's just prudence of like, okay, do I really need to spend money on this photo scanner or whatever? And most photo scanners are not $650, just the bougie ones at the public library. But like something like that is really simple, but it's something you think through a little bit more, I would say. So that would be like a small example.
00:40:50
Speaker
and And for me, I think it's it's a commitment to living as simply as I can. um And then I think also, I think about just a growing realization that I can do nothing on my own, that I i really am poor in myself, um that God does everything, I'm reliant on him.
00:41:14
Speaker
And um I just, even and as I age, I become more and more aware of how poor I am and how reliant I am on the Lord.
00:41:28
Speaker
That's beautiful. um In our ah contemporary society, there's kind of the overarching thought that I am free to do what I want. And technically we are.
00:41:39
Speaker
And so it might be said that, why are you making a promise to think through all that? That doesn't sound very free, but actually i think That is extremely free way to live because then you realized that you're going to carry your own little mini Carmelite the order to the library.
00:41:58
Speaker
And then who are you going encounter as you go there? And then with your living simply like you are free from so many possessions that that are trying to to control us. So really back to my own vocational reflection that giving yourself away is the most free you can be.
00:42:17
Speaker
That's really cool. Yeah. And the thing is with, um sometimes you think um convents are convenient for some things, you know, you don't think a convents is being convenient, but sometimes you think through of like, as a secular, it's the virtue. And I mean, it's any Christian that's trying to live simplicity, trying to live a detachment um so that you can have your focus on like what's important as any Christian, like that can be difficult living just in the world. um You have to kind of rein yourself in Sometimes I look around, I'm like, who's making these decisions? You know, you're like, you're pulling up to the McDonald's drive through at like five zero in the morning. Not that everyone does this. And you're like, who made that decision for me? You know, so to some extent, it is a practice, of a virtue of like reining yourself in.
00:43:08
Speaker
Hey, broken human nature. broken human nature. I know you, but I'm the boss. You got to listen to me. And so in my, like, of course the grass is always greener view.
00:43:18
Speaker
It seems like if I lived in a convent, I wouldn't have that temptation. If I lived in a convent, dang it, there would be a bell that rings. and I'm going to have a bunch of sisters that show up and we're going pray morning prayer it's going to be beautiful.
00:43:32
Speaker
But, you know, as a ah secular, it's, um, you're working with a different wife, right. Which is beautiful. It's what God calls you to, but you know, morning prayer is not going to look the same as if you were in ah a chapel. Like my night prayer does not conclude with a bunch of sisters singing, you know, Marian hymn in Latin. And so it is, it is a trick of it of like, there is, um,
00:43:56
Speaker
Definitely a lot of grace given, as Martha said, for our very imperfect people living with broken human nature. But like I said, for me, it's really not perfection. It's fidelity.
00:44:08
Speaker
um You want to be faithful to morning prayer. You want be faithful to evening prayer. And like she had mentioned, Mass, daily Mass is as possible. So as a teacher, I can get to daily Mass regularly.
00:44:19
Speaker
Whenever I want, she says in the summer, but during the school year that changes or some people when they work, like it can be a long time where they just can't get to daily mass just because of the schedules, whatever. And so once again, it is a bit of a trick living secular living just a normal, a normal quote unquote life of like, you have to be the boss of yourself. You have to learn some self-discipline. You have to be poor and know that you're going to mess up, but like God's grace is there and that you can have some determination. And a lot of the saints do write about, you have to come um into this game of prayer, if you will, with a determined determination, really knowing that like the obstacles are going to be there. You're going to mess up, but you're going to keep going.
00:45:05
Speaker
And i think that's, you know, we're saying Carmel, but you can just say in the Christian life, because that's what it is. It's the Christian life.
00:45:15
Speaker
And it might be worth naming for our listeners to and kind of highlight what you're saying.
Secular vs. Religious Life in the Carmelite Context
00:45:20
Speaker
We've been throwing around the term, we we kind of distinguish between religious life and secular life. And in this context, you know, it in in common speak, when people hear secular, we they usually mean it to refer to things not religious or devoid of religion. But in this context and in church speak context, religious is like the group who moves removes themselves from the world to live in a cloister or convent, to to live in this community together, nuns and monks and so on. And secular does not mean devoid of religion. It just means those who are living that spirituality while living and working in the quote-unquote normal world, right? So living in the world, they have normal jobs and lives and so on while they're living this spirituality in that context rather than the context of a convent. So just for our listeners, I want to name that.
00:46:11
Speaker
That distinction of religious and secular. That's a good distinction because, you know, we throw the word secular around like a manhole cover because we're so used to it. But but yeah, it it is an unusual use of the word.
00:46:26
Speaker
um And I'm thinking, we're just to be clear, we're not a secular institute. You know, we don't come under bad heading. um You know, we're we're under the Institutes for Consecrated Life.
00:46:40
Speaker
So, but yeah, it is, it is a um it's an unusual calling, but I think of i think of the Hermits of Mount Carmel as having had a holiness project.
00:46:55
Speaker
You know, whenever the the world gets a little off, like during the time of the Crusades or, you know, when Anthony was going into the desert, that was a holiness project for the for the desert fathers and mothers.
00:47:11
Speaker
and And in a way, I feel as if the secular Carmelite life or the third order life, you know, the other third orders are are wonderful.
00:47:23
Speaker
They're sort of a holiness project for lay people, you know, because we... We lead this countercultural life in in a society that values individualism and independence and not completely, but in some areas of our lives, we've handed that over because we've agreed to be obedient to somebody else. So it's quite unusual. um
00:47:56
Speaker
But I, but you know, our hearts are formed so that it makes perfect sense. And um just because obedience is is not an easy thing, but in these areas, we've agreed to be obedience, be read agreed to be obedient. So it's just been a great, great gift from the Lord that I bumped into Carmel. I have to say I had a great aunt who was a Carmelite nun. I never met her.
00:48:32
Speaker
But I sometimes I think, is this genetic or what? yes whom What is your typically what is your half an hour of meditation look like?
00:48:46
Speaker
I will just start with me because every human is a little bit different. And i I communicate the way I communicate. So for me, i am, I'm a to-do list person. So really what I have to do before I pray is I have my, my Jesus stuff, but I also have a little notebook.
00:49:07
Speaker
And so really the first thing I do is like get all my to-do lists out. Okay. Like I'm going to write down my little checklist of all of the things I need to do, because frankly, if I don't do that, like it's going to keep popping up during prayer. And so for me, I have to do like a little extra step of like, okay, I literally have a little notebook. It has cats on it. Very, very nice notebook. I literally have to just get the stuff out first.
00:49:34
Speaker
And then for me, like um one of the things we'll realize as we're reading the different Carmelite saints is there's been a lot of ink spilled about the importance of prayer, about having that time with the Lord,
00:49:47
Speaker
But there is a lot of different ways the Holy Spirit's going to guide you in that time of prayer. i have a routine because I'm a routine person. I'll start by, i I always say at the beginning of my prayer, like, Lord, I love you and I trust you. And then I start by thanking him for some things in my life. But then at some extent, has to be a come Holy Spirit sort of thing. um When we're looking at like St. Teresa of Avila, she has distinctions about different types of prayer.
00:50:17
Speaker
And we're not going I mean, like you can read a book, right? If you want to read about different types of prayer, you can. But what we do know is like, it's the Lord who really gifts us with some of these different types of prayer. So when we're talking about contemplation in like a Carmelite context, it's something that's coming from the Lord.
00:50:36
Speaker
It's like you're sitting there and you're receiving from the Lord. So it's something that I would say is important that regardless of what I'm doing, if it's like my brain's going a hundred miles a minute and I'm, trying to read the Bible and trying to let the Holy Spirit talk to me.
00:50:52
Speaker
One of the things I always try to make sure is during that time that there is a ah time just to receive from the Lord. And that's really simply just stopping talking and just trying to be present to the Lord who is present to me. And so I think that's some hallmark of a lot of our times of meditation, or we call it mental prayer because we just adopt the jargon for whoever made up the word. So meditation, we'll just call it a time of mental prayer. I think it's the receptivity that makes it truly in the spirit of Carmel. um to be open and receptive to what the Lord wants to do in our hearts. And one of the beautiful things about becoming a secular Carmelite is that was a question I really had when I first started to pray. Like back in high school, I could maybe pray for 10 minutes at a time. I never really understood that prayer could be something other than me reading the Bible or prayer could be something other than me saying a decade of the rosary, but prayer can be something that You can just simply sit with the Lord and be open and receive the graces that are coming to you.
Approaches to Mental Prayer
00:51:58
Speaker
And that's always something to remind myself of, of like having that time of whatever it is I'm doing during that half hour of really calming my heart and just sitting with the Lord who is present to me.
00:52:10
Speaker
And so, like I said, it it comes and goes kind of what I do practically. Like I said, I usually start at the beginning with some thanksgiving, The Bible gets cracked open here or there. Sometimes I'm just sharing with the Lord my day, which is pretty which is pretty typical because that's how you grow in communion with somebody. But like I said, for me, I'm trying at least to always have that period of time during that half hour where you're just receiving from the Lord.
00:52:35
Speaker
So this might be a good time to say that there really is no Carmelite method of prayer. ah But there is a Carmelite encouragement to pray and to pray daily.
00:52:45
Speaker
um And so Teresa, I think Teresa is known as the doctor of prayer because she was told that all she needed to do was live a moral life and say vocal prayer, say the rosary, say the Our Father and the Hail Mary.
00:53:03
Speaker
And that's all she needed to do. But she was having these experiences and she needed to figure out what was going on. So she finally, you know, through her reading and working with a Franciscan, you know, really made some headway in in understanding what was going on.
00:53:19
Speaker
And so her heritage is that, yes, even lay people are called to mental prayer, to the quiet prayer. They're called to contemplation.
00:53:32
Speaker
um So for me, i i try to kind of prepare for prayer, say in the morning by making sure that I've read the the mass readings for the day and of course morning prayer. And it might be that there's a ah passage in morning prayer that that sticks with me and then I'll stop.
00:53:49
Speaker
I'll stop reading morning prayer and just focus on that. But then when it comes time and usually it's a scheduled time for my time of mental prayer, you know, I'll sit down and make sure that I've read the gospel.
00:54:03
Speaker
um And I sort of take inventory about where I am, you know, and let the Lord know, not that he needs to be told, but just this is where I am, this is what's going on.
00:54:18
Speaker
And then um it's just quiet prayer for me. It's just listening and you know nothing, just very quiet.
00:54:28
Speaker
And then it i can kind of tell when a half hour is up and I'm done. And so just, it's very simple. I'm, you know, I really am listening, but I've, I've tried to, I don't know. um
00:54:45
Speaker
I'm trying to think of an and ah analogy. i've I've tried to sit down with a full tank, I guess, you know, having, having maybe done my spiritual reading. So then ah there'll be things in mind, but usually I don't think about stuff. I just try to tell the Lord I love him.
00:55:04
Speaker
You set a timer?
00:55:08
Speaker
No, no, but I kind of know when it's, I usually check the time because I, you know, want to know when I'm getting up, but no, it's, I've been doing it for a while, so I kind of know when I have hours of.
00:55:21
Speaker
Yeah, you you can kind of feel it. um That's a hard thing. I mean, in our priest life, in your lay life, and in basically everybody's life, there's so many demands, temporal demands of us that I need to be here at this time. And unless we have the foresight and courage to say no to that thing, it's it's difficult to fit print make fit prayer in and get it done, or rather the ideal is to make your day revolve around prayer. That's what I've learned with the Liturgy of the Hours.
00:55:56
Speaker
But just for people who want to start praying, um I always encourage people like, sit and be quiet for three minutes, set a timer and say 10 Hail Marys. Like that's a start. And pretty soon you'll be Martha Hanley level of just knowing when half an hour is up. Yeah, it's, it's, it takes practice and it takes discipline just like, just like any skill. Yeah, it is. it It does take practice.
00:56:25
Speaker
Yeah. And it's really easy to fall off the wagon. But one of the things we talk about in community is you know, we know, and our families know when we're not being faithful to our regimen of prayer.
00:56:41
Speaker
What is going on? And I often tell my parishioner, speaking of prayer, you know, of, of how do you learn how to pray? Well, the best way to learn how to pray to do it.
00:56:53
Speaker
Like, like start doing it, you know, cause that's one of the biggest things and kind of what you guys alluded to is the, the making the time for it is so important, you know? Um, So so I hope for some of our listeners, you know, they may not be called to join a ah Carmelite group or anything like that, but I hope it's at least encouragement, I think, for all, all followers of Christ to be a little encouraged and maybe make a little more time in your life for prayer, you know. um I heard once about it's a good a good habit is to give God kind of 1% of your day, at least, you know. and Because I sometimes tell people, you know, wish you you should pray. ah You know, maybe pray a little more. Well, Father, I don't have time. It's like, well, how about, you know, can you give like 20 minutes to pray? Oh, Father, that's too much. What about 15? Oh, that's too much. What about 1% of your day to God?
00:57:44
Speaker
Well, I could probably do that. Okay, that's about 14 minutes and 40 seconds. so Really spending time with our Father in in prayerful intimacy is how we want to spend eternity. And by using this worldly life to do that, I think it's a great preparation for what we're going to be doing forever.
Notable Carmelite Figures and Teachings
00:58:09
Speaker
yeah So we've got John of the Cross. We got Teresa of Avila. We've got St. Therese of Lisieux. And what other famous Carmelites can you think of?
00:58:20
Speaker
This is not a pop quiz. I'm genuinely curious.
00:58:25
Speaker
Well, I'd just add, and as I mentioned before, so World War II martyr, in in a sense. ah So ah Teresa Benedict of the Cross, oh also known as Yiddish Stein. Mm-hmm.
00:58:40
Speaker
For our listeners, back in in season one of Dubucus of Revival, we have a whole episode on Edith Stein and and some of the things she can teach us about the Eucharist. So you can go back and listen to that. I'm going go back. Yeah, highly recommend it. That was our second longest episode. Our guest was Dr. Travis Lacey, who talked about phenomenology.
00:59:02
Speaker
He, you know, go have fun with that. He told, ah he told, the he gave a talk. um We asked him to give a talk on Edith Stein and it was phenomenal. Yeah. He loves Edith Stein. Yeah.
00:59:15
Speaker
She is great. Yeah, he does. i would also mention, I don't know what famous means, but ah Elizabeth of the Trinity. She is kind of a contemporary of St. Therese and absolutely beautiful. If you love St. Therese, you'll love yourself Elizabeth of the Trinity. And then, of course, Carmelites have the the brown scapular. And so St. Simon Stock, who lived in England ah a good few years ago, also probably is a name that gets brought up just because of his connection with the brown scapular, which is connected with the Carmelite order as well.
00:59:53
Speaker
would Would you mind either of you saying a few words about the brown scapular? I know that was something that ah a lot of people, that's probably a lot of people's general exposure to anything Carmelite is through the brown scapular, but sometimes people see it and don't know what it is, or there was a period I know where sometimes people would just give those out for First Communions, and some people would have it, but we would didn't really know what to do with it, and so could could yeah Could you just say a little bit about what is the brown scapular and kind of and what's it how does it fit into this whole scheme of Carmelite spirituality?
01:00:30
Speaker
Do you want me to start? Okay, I'll start. So, of course, it's this beautiful tradition of St. Simon's Stock. And this would have been after they came left the Holy Land and went to England. So he was English.
01:00:46
Speaker
and I think it was probably in the 1300s. So Our Lady appeared to him, gave him the scapular. And I know the legend has developed that if you wear the scapular,
01:01:07
Speaker
you will be taken to heaven on the Saturday after your birth. And about 10 years ago, the two fathers general so the the old carm father general and OCD father general.
01:01:24
Speaker
came out with a teaching on the brown scapular. So just to be very clear, if we are saved, we're not saved by a scapular. We're saved by Jesus Christ. So just wearing a scapular, of course, and not living a Christian life is not going to save you. So, you know, just to have that distinction. Mm-hmm.
01:01:46
Speaker
um We wear, we're asked to wear the scapular or a scapular medal every day. And then when we're when we're together, we have large ceremonial scapulars. It is definitely the the emblem of the order, but it has, for me, it's it I think it comes from an apron. So it has the um the connotation of of service,
01:02:15
Speaker
We're to serve. Teresa, in Teresa's writing, 810 times she says the word serve. You know, um the reason for prayer, my daughters, is to serve, to serve.
01:02:30
Speaker
So, you know, we don't come to Carmel so we can sit in a corner and pray all day. it as we um As we continue in our journey toward God, we'll be more inclined to serve.
01:02:45
Speaker
you know, to help, to be helpful to to give ourselves. So that's that's kind of my take on the scapular. That's what I know about it. But I you know, I think it has various shades of meaning for different people.
01:02:59
Speaker
And it's, you know, it's, I love that, that many other people have adopted it and have the different shades of meaning. And, ah you know, my, my grandchildren were enrolled in the scapular as part of their first communion.
01:03:14
Speaker
And I i thought it was just, just lovely. I feel like. information. We have a little booklet that really goes into the history of the brown scapular and there's actually a lot there.
01:03:30
Speaker
So this is me taking two steps back being like, I don't know where to bite into the sandwich, sort of speak, because there is a lot of history of, you know, originally a scapular is just a part of ah ah ah like a monk's outfit, right? His his habit. So it's the piece of cloth that will kind of go over the rest of his outfit. And so a scapular, like your bones in your shoulder called scapula, I think. So a scapular was the piece of cloth that goes over that.
01:04:00
Speaker
And so the idea is over time, like just the non- religious, she said, hopefully and we know what that word and it means now, like the non monks and nuns wanted to get a piece of this, this promise to St. Seven stock. And so they started to wear kind of smaller versions of that.
01:04:20
Speaker
And so like I said, if I'm just going to tell you to look online, which is probably not a great idea. But the idea is there's a lot of different kind of, you know, what does it mean to be enrolled in the scapular you can read kind of the guidelines connected to that.
01:04:35
Speaker
And I was wearing the brown scapular since I was in high school, like the little brown pieces of cloth. And then eventually I switched over to a metal scapular, which is more or less a metal of Our Lady.
01:04:48
Speaker
um just because of practicality. But there's a lot to it. And like, I would encourage anyone to look more into it. But the reason I hesitate is just because as soon as you say one thing, you're going to forget the other thing that you should mention at the same time. So that's why I kind of like, let that be for individual research for like the finer details. Yes. But I just wanted to highlight because people, I think people there There are Catholics who know of the brown scapular that such a thing exists, but may not have connected it to. I know at least when I first heard of the brown scapular, it was I was in college and I had some friends who wore it. And all I know, it was a it was some brown cloth thing you wore under your shirt and it's kind of a sign of ocean and had something to do with Mary, maybe.
01:05:35
Speaker
and yeah. And then the thing of after the Saturday after your death, you go, Mary takes you to heaven or something. And that was about all I knew about it, but I wouldn't have been able to articulate to you that, oh, this actually has a historical connection to the Carmelite spirituality, particularly as brown because they wear brown habits and is model this cloth that's modeled after their kind of apron piece of their habit that they wear over their shoulders, their scapulars, and kind of in front and back part. And yeah, so there is there's ah so encourage our listeners to that. There's more to
Resources for Further Learning on Carmelite Spirituality
01:06:07
Speaker
it. So especially if you already are aware of it, or especially if you wear one, if you haven't done so, to um learn more about but that that devotional piece.
01:06:16
Speaker
It's a good topic to consider.
01:06:21
Speaker
we they We got on the brown scapular because we were talking about saints with this. and we talked So we listed some of them. So I just want to, I guess, maybe mention another. He's not a saint, but I do know there's another book, I believe from the Carmelite tradition, um That's kind of considered a spiritual ah classic. That is The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence.
01:06:44
Speaker
Is that in the Carmelite tradition as well? Absolutely. So that's another one that people may have heard of. I don't believe Brother Lawrence is a canonized saint, but i don' think but that's kind of considered one of the classics in the tradition.
01:06:55
Speaker
It is. And I think he's better known among Protestants than Catholics. I think you know Protestants really love that book, The Practice of the Presence of God. But we've read it in community.
01:07:07
Speaker
And it's a reminder can that's in his very simple way, because he was a cook and, you know, in his he lived in Paris and was a cook and a shoemaker, whatever the the community needed. But he was praying all the time because he was keeping in mind that God is present.
01:07:33
Speaker
God is always present within us. So, yeah, it's ah it's a wonderful book.
01:07:43
Speaker
So as we're coming to the end here, what if if someone would just want, in general, wanted to learn more about Carmelite spirituality or what it is, or, i mean, where where where you might encourage them to start or how could they learn more or but what would you recommend?
01:08:02
Speaker
So people who have found us will look... Actually, I think they must Google Carmelites Iowa and they go to our provincial website and then they find us because all of us are, you know, all the communities are listed, but we actually have a webpage and it's I a Carmelites, secular's dot wordpress.com.
01:08:29
Speaker
It's very simple, but it does have a contact number on it. So, he I will put that in the description of this episode. Thank you. yeah And like I'd say, it just depends on the person with like what book to start with.
01:08:45
Speaker
But if your brain set up the way my brain set up, I do have a book recommendation. So Father Thomas Dubé, who was not a Carmelite himself, is just really talented kind of synthesizer.
01:08:58
Speaker
So if you want a book that really goes through, you know, St. John of the Cross for dummies, if you will, you like going through some of the the spiritual classics in the Carmelite tradition, if you want just kind of like ah a buffet of a little this, a little of that. Like I said, Father Thomas Dubé wrote a book called The Fire Within.
01:09:20
Speaker
And it's it's fairly popular in the sense of like, I remember when I was discerning religious life, different communities I discerned with that was on the list of books they'd have you read just because it's a primer to kind of the spiritual the Carmelite spirituality but really a primer to the gift which is like all of this all of these saints and their writings on prayer so if you're looking for kind of just a little buffet of a little of this, a little of that, a little of this saint, a little of that saint. um
01:09:50
Speaker
Father Thomas Dubé, in my opinion, did an excellent job in the book Fire Within. And that's the first book I read in high school that introduced myself personally to the Carmelite spirituality.
01:10:02
Speaker
that's That's a really good idea. Also, there are there's a wonderful podcast series by some young friars in the the eastern of the Washington province and it's called Carmelcast and it they just do a great exposition of Carmelite spirituality and and living the Carmelite life so I'd recommend that I think we can probably include a link to that podcast as well in the show notes I'll think about it okay very good
01:10:40
Speaker
Wow. This has been very informative. This might be our third longest episode, which is a testament to how we were living in the present moment here and now. I didn't realize. Wow. Thank you.
01:10:52
Speaker
Thank you so much. for Yeah, this was fun. yeah this was fun it's really but It's fun to talk Jesus. It's fun to talk Our Lady. It's fun to talk Carmelites. It's it's a joy.
01:11:04
Speaker
And i'm it's a joy to have you listeners here as well. For all you Googlers out there,
01:11:17
Speaker
Not caramel. It is caramel. So as you're, I'm sure you'll you'll figure that out, but... Thank you for joining us and learning about Carmelite spirituality, has nothing to do with candy.
01:11:30
Speaker
And thank you, Martha and Janil for joining us and for co-hosting Father Kevin. A delight as always. Thank you. And thanks for all your work. Thank you for...
01:11:41
Speaker
this evangelization effort. It's awesome. It's a joy. i can see that. St. Joseph Lisieux, pray for us and all the other saints, Carmelite saints, pray for us. I will see you all in the Eucharist.
01:11:56
Speaker
Very good. God bless you. you.