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EP 14 - Pheck this Trump Craic
6 Plays3 months ago
Our returning guest today is Professor John Pauley from Iowa. As a philosopher and Director of Interdisciplinary Studies at Simpson College, John is well studied in Ideas, and well placed in a conservative state. Guess who we talk about....
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction to Professor John Pauley and Food Politics
00:00:23
Daithi Flannery
Hello everybody, thanks for joining us for another episode of Philosophy. Today we have returning guest, Professor John Pauley. John is
Economic Risks and U.S. Economy Overview
00:00:33
Daithi Flannery
a philosopher and for interdisciplinary studies at Princeton University and he will talk to us about what is happening in America with their food, politically and socially, which we may find out are not unrelated.
00:00:51
Daithi Flannery
Hi John and welcome.
00:00:53
john pauley
Good morning. Thank you for having me.
00:00:55
Daithi Flannery
Thanks for coming, John.
00:00:56
john pauley
Good evening
00:00:57
Daithi Flannery
Thanks for coming. So I guess the first question are you feeling liberated over there today?
00:01:05
Daithi Flannery
After a Liberation Day yesterday?
00:01:09
john pauley
I just read an article
Trump's Economic Policies: Criticism and Analysis
00:01:11
john pauley
by Paul Klugman about, is it, the title of the article was, Is It Malicious Stupidity?
00:01:20
john pauley
Or something else. And he had he had a list of reasons for why this could tank the world economy, not just the U.S. economy.
00:01:31
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Yeah.
00:01:32
john pauley
So i i I haven't read, i literally have not read one article anywhere. Wall Street Journal, the more conservative, you know, reasonable article.
00:01:45
john pauley
kinds of newspapers or so on that says how these things are supposed to work.
00:01:52
Daithi Flannery
yeah listening to Trump yesterday as he was rambling on, it's like you he knows people are waiting for him to say something. So he's just like one of those people that doesn't give you the information you need until you've listened to all his ranting.
00:02:08
john pauley
Yeah, right.
00:02:09
Daithi Flannery
But yeah, absolutely.
00:02:10
john pauley
But he never does anything, he he never says anything What he says is, okay, what the tariffs will do is bring industry back to the United States. But he doesn't say how.
00:02:22
john pauley
it's It's all this really simplistic thing, right? if it If it costs more for them, et cetera, et cetera. he he does Well, it's not
Trump vs. Biden: Economic Handling
00:02:30
john pauley
really et cetera, et cetera. It's just this one sort of line.
00:02:33
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:02:34
john pauley
But then all the stuff underneath about the world economy, all these other really crucial things, right? about what will establish industry back in the United States.
00:02:46
john pauley
So I'm missing.
00:02:47
Daithi Flannery
yeah it's like It's like seeing a guy coming in to fix a really complicated to our computer and his only tool is a hammer.
00:02:58
Daithi Flannery
it's It's like, how how you how are you planning to do that?
00:02:59
john pauley
and Right. And the hammer doesn't even work.
00:03:03
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:03:04
john pauley
yes
00:03:05
Daithi Flannery
And he's never used one before. but
00:03:07
john pauley
There you go. i mean, Trump really has never... never really done anything with respect to the U.S. economy. he did And he mentions, oh, you know, my last term.
00:03:27
john pauley
His last term was was on anyone's view. When you look at the objective evidence, yeah he was terrible with the economy. It took Biden to fix it
00:03:38
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Yeah. yeah
00:03:40
john pauley
So I don't, yeah, I
Political Landscape: Conservatives, Coup Concerns, and Elections
00:03:42
john pauley
try my best to respect the conservatives. And I do have friends here in Iowa who are more conservative people on the faculty, and there they're deserting they're deserting this too.
00:04:00
john pauley
You know, they're they're actually, for your for your viewers, they might be interested that the U.S. is... I mean, it's it's getting really dicey.
00:04:15
john pauley
And and he you know he might lose all of his support.
00:04:20
Daithi Flannery
And would that, do you think, I mean, he he seems to be setting up for a third term. I never thought there'd be a peaceful transfer of power after this term.
00:04:31
Daithi Flannery
But is he trying to set up some sort of coup for next time? Yeah. like
00:04:38
john pauley
Well, you're thinking ahead of me.
00:04:42
john pauley
I don't know.
00:04:43
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:04:44
john pauley
i don't know. i i mean, there are indications more than just some that he, yeah, he has no respect for the law.
00:04:52
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:55
john pauley
Just depends, I think, on whether or not these other Republicans in the House and the Senate can write you know, finally push back.
00:05:11
john pauley
and And if that if that happens, no, he's not going to, no, he'll be thrown out.
00:05:11
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:05:22
Daithi Flannery
I hope so.
00:05:23
john pauley
But I don't know if it'll happen.
00:05:25
Daithi Flannery
Neither do I, but as I've been saying to people, I think our only hope is that the American people find a way to throw him out.
00:05:34
john pauley
Yeah.
00:05:34
Daithi Flannery
That seems to be the only cure, or else everything is just so unpredictable because we do not know. and What you said,
Pardoning January 6th Participants: Political Implications
00:05:43
Daithi Flannery
your answer is great.
00:05:45
Daithi Flannery
I don't know because we don't we don't know because we can't.
00:05:46
john pauley
Yeah, we don't. This is unprecedented in U.S.
00:05:51
Daithi Flannery
Exactly. It's unprecedented.
00:05:52
john pauley
history. So we don't, and you can see you you can see a clear pattern. I mean, there's no doubt about that. and And for me, it really, for me, it started with January 6th as, you know, the pardoning of those people.
00:06:03
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:06:11
john pauley
You know, if you want to establish a definite pattern
00:06:17
john pauley
Don't even go backwards. Just start there and then move forward.
00:06:20
Daithi Flannery
Hmm.
00:06:21
john pauley
And he's just, he doesn't he doesn't care about the rule of law. So, yeah.
00:06:27
Daithi Flannery
what Yeah, with that pardoning of the January Sixers, it seems to be like a setting up of a Praetorian Guard type situation where where he's going to have these well-armed people who are devoted to him for a next time.
00:06:46
Daithi Flannery
And he has the ability to pardon people. So I worry about what happens when he's but if the Americans do try and throw him out and these Praetorian Guard type style band around him, I do worry about that kind of situation.
00:07:05
Daithi Flannery
but
00:07:06
john pauley
I do, too. I do, too.
00:07:07
Daithi Flannery
And how...
00:07:08
john pauley
Definitely. Although, the you know, the the the the lower middle class in the United States
00:07:17
john pauley
and the middle class, really, are stand to lose a lot here. You know, so as far as, you know, he's...
00:07:31
john pauley
he's Trump risks losing right rapidly support from American citizens. i you know i do i I think there will be a point where people see
Truth Manipulation by Trump: Orwellian Concerns
00:07:45
john pauley
through it. This has been this did happen with Musk recently, you know Tuesday in Wisconsin.
00:07:53
john pauley
And there have been town halls in Iowa with, you know, Republican town halls. Just recently, Chuck Grassley, the senator, he's the, he has a number of positions in the Senate.
00:08:06
john pauley
And he came back to his home county to give a town hall. And he he was, he just got ripped apart. And they were they were talking they were talking about everything, yeah ive the culture war stuff and, right, Musk running the government, you know, buying elections and so forth.
00:08:28
john pauley
So they were they were going through the whole thing. And these these were, you know, this was a Republican town hall. And believe me, there's they're not radical radical liberals who have been, you know, somehow...
00:08:43
john pauley
smuggled
Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Programs: Misconceptions and Pushback
00:08:44
john pauley
in.
00:08:44
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:08:44
john pauley
that's not that's That's not what's going on.
00:08:47
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, it's very, it's very disorienting trying to get the the truth. What really bugs me is that they can, that they've taken the word truth and made it truth social.
00:09:02
Daithi Flannery
And then they start saying that Trump has put out a truth. He's posted a truth. or he's it it just kind of It's a clear example how they're distorting reality.
00:09:16
Daithi Flannery
It's 1984 Orwell-like. It's very worrying. It are well like it's it's it's very worry
00:09:23
john pauley
Yeah, it's sickening because it's, you know, it's not even interesting because, well, it is in its and its overtness because if you if you just take a few minutes for any of this, you can see through it.
00:09:24
Daithi Flannery
it is
00:09:40
john pauley
It's just, oh,
00:09:40
Daithi Flannery
Are people taking the minutes, John?
00:09:42
john pauley
I don't, I know, well, you know, I, I, I have a small sample, you know, around me and those people do.
00:09:53
john pauley
And in our town, which is heavily Republican, conservative, and I would say, you know, almost like
Social Media's Impact on Public Discourse
00:10:02
john pauley
militant MAGA, I think, you know, when it starts hitting When it really starts, if it does, if it starts to really hit their bottom line, you know, the the the things that Americans tend to care about the most.
00:10:20
john pauley
I mean, I don't know what will happen. I certainly, the bills that are being passed in our state, you know, it hasn't stopped. It's it's all the same stuff.
00:10:33
john pauley
More gun rights. stand your ground laws, taking money from public education and putting it into, you know, private school vouchers.
00:10:46
john pauley
of the the The complete war and attack on whatever they mean by DEI. And it's, you know, that I don't think that they, I've written letter after letter on email, my representatives asking them, what is it that you actually understand to be DEI?
00:11:11
john pauley
And they don't write back.
00:11:14
Daithi Flannery
that's the very shallow style of thinking that they're copying and that they're putting out there and and i I find it a lot back here too i I purposely try to talk to people that I don't agree with that are you could say Trump fans or Trumpists or or think there's something good about it and it There's no depth when you take any of their slogans and say, okay, let's talk about this.
00:11:47
Daithi Flannery
it's It's a walk away time then. You know what I mean? I worry about that shallowness. I blame social media for a lot of us and the hijacking of our dopaminergic system to give us these short attention spans that only respond to 20-second videos.
Educational Challenges and DEI in Education
00:12:04
Daithi Flannery
I think,
00:12:04
john pauley
but And then they say they've done their research.
00:12:07
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:12:08
john pauley
that' but That's what kills me. Yeah. But the the for the DEI thing, you know, when I was in Ireland for the three months, I i did feel like that Irish people that I met, and it wasn't just professors, but it was it was also people in the, you know, agriculture and stuff. They, they seem to understand,
00:12:34
john pauley
you know, the economic disparity, right? Also, they seem to be amenable or, right, friendly to economic opportunity and so on. And what our local politicians, they go from DEI, they make the inference from DEI to, oh, you're hiring Black people who are incompetent.
00:13:00
john pauley
But I mean, we have students here, first generation students of from rural Iowa who are smart kids, but they need right the they need some extra support because they they have they have really been underprivileged in terms of education.
00:13:26
john pauley
And and they they also sometimes come from rougher schools And that's part of our DEI program.
00:13:38
Daithi Flannery
I
00:13:39
john pauley
diversity, equity, and inclusion, I mean, I would like to change it to autonomy, justice,
00:13:50
john pauley
diversity, right? Diversity, equity, I'm not sure about the third one. They want to change it to, what's it called now? excellence, merit, I forget.
00:14:03
john pauley
But I mean, diversity is one thing, but then, it you know, accomplishing autonomy for the people that we call minorities now, they a lot of people
Mass Production Agriculture: Unsustainability and Cultural Links
00:14:13
john pauley
don't like that.
00:14:16
john pauley
we've We've got a long way to go. And I'm not going to stop helping students because the state representative says that it's DEI.
00:14:26
Daithi Flannery
No, it's ridiculous. the way yeah The way I see i so i see myself as a beneficiary of DEI type programs. I mean, the meritocracy idea is a nonsense.
00:14:38
Daithi Flannery
As I've said other places, the the coiner of the phrase wrote a book about how dystopian of an idea it was.
00:14:39
john pauley
It's foolish. Yes.
00:14:44
john pauley
oh
U.S.-EU Agricultural Trade and Health Impacts
00:15:02
Daithi Flannery
Yesterday, what during Trump's rant, a lot of it was about how the EU wouldn't take American agricultural products.
00:15:14
Daithi Flannery
Any idea why that might be?
00:15:17
john pauley
The EU won't take US agricultural products? Oh, I don't know, tit for tat. I'm not, I'm not, I'm, you know, I don't know how much actually of Iowa agriculture products go to the EU.
00:15:40
john pauley
I'm thinking very little.
00:15:42
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, I think we don't take a lot of American or anti-American agricultural products because our regulations over here don't allow us to put a lot of the stuff in the food that gets put in the food over there.
00:15:58
john pauley
Right.
00:16:00
Daithi Flannery
And it seems problematic. And in your work, you mentioned that Iowa has the second highest cancer rate in America.
00:16:10
john pauley
Yeah. And this has been the case since. Anyway, i went back to CDC statistics to 2017. It's basically been the time.
00:16:23
john pauley
basically been the same i think we're I think we're number one. We're number two in new cases, percentage of the population.
00:16:36
john pauley
And then we're we're the rate of increase. I think we're number one.
00:16:42
Daithi Flannery
well
00:16:43
john pauley
I'd have to check that, but yeah, but it doesn't really matter. I mean, either way, it's it is a kind of alarming But you see, this is this is what I was, I'm complaining about this in the in the paper I'm writing that, you know, it's one thing for citizens to say, oh, look, you know, in 2025, we have this cancer problem.
00:17:09
john pauley
But actually, we've had this problem since at least, you know, 2015 or so. So I, you know, and nothing's happened. I mean, nothing really has happened.
00:17:23
john pauley
I mean, there was not there's there's stuff that comes out about, I'm combing the research here, and and you know there's stuff that's coming out about alcohol.
00:17:36
john pauley
That seems to me to be a the current you know sort of current causality that people are latching onto.
00:17:47
john pauley
And if you look at the cancer reports, there's one every year, And environmental factors are just, they're the last thing mentioned.
00:18:00
john pauley
And at the top of that list is radon.
00:18:03
john pauley
And it's just, you know, and then you start looking at into more of it, and i've I have.
00:18:04
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:18:11
john pauley
And atrazine, which is a chemical that that is 60 to 80 million pounds of it is used in the United States. And in Iowa, they use it's a common.
00:18:24
john pauley
They dump a lot of it, spray a lot of it. It was banned in the EU in 2003.
00:18:31
john pauley
The reasoning on that part of the EU was it it is impossible to keep atrazine out of the water.
00:18:40
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:18:40
john pauley
And since research has shown a statistical correlation between atrazine and colon cancer And colon cancer for sure.
00:18:53
john pauley
I don't want to do
Environmental Factors in Health Research
00:18:54
john pauley
anything off the top of my head.
00:18:57
john pauley
And Iowa has seen a rise in colon cancer.
00:19:02
Daithi Flannery
Well, and it's, you say it's the, it's very, it's mentioned last, but is it, Is it also looked at last? As in, are they even looking at our environmental factors much?
00:19:14
john pauley
Well, I mean, i think some people are, but
00:19:18
john pauley
I'm not sure in the state, because the state is dominated by big agriculture and industry interests.
00:19:30
john pauley
I mean, it really is. and And here I wanted to, instead of going into all these details about this stuff, I wanted to hook on the things that you've been mentioning and the stuff you've been talking about.
00:19:44
john pauley
This, what people are talking about with respect to authoritarianism,
00:19:50
john pauley
a lot of it just here just comes right down to profits. So, so you've got people in the state legislature, you know, protecting Iowa agriculture, but you know, they're invested.
00:20:10
john pauley
You know, they're there you you you can't deny that.
00:20:11
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:20:13
john pauley
People in the state legislature actually have farms. You know, they're they're in the business.
Big Agriculture, Political Influence, and Authoritarianism
00:20:23
john pauley
So I really think, you know, the here, the authoritarianism in this state, and it's definitely authoritarianism, trying to get your voice heard, it's really hard. Yeah.
00:20:39
john pauley
This is due to rate a small number of people making a lot of money. the the The lobby for big agriculture is bigger than the lobby and more powerful than the big oil lobby.
00:20:57
Daithi Flannery
Wow.
00:20:59
Daithi Flannery
And what about...
00:20:59
john pauley
But sometimes it just comes right back down to you know good old American greed.
00:21:07
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. And what about institutions like the FDA and and this? Would they not have some say or are are they corrupted or...
00:21:21
john pauley
I don't know if they're corrupted, but they get, they've been gutted. And they, you know, they
00:21:25
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:21:27
john pauley
kant Trump is in the process of, I think he's already done it. He's gutted the the EPA. And he's also,
00:21:40
john pauley
what he is repealing or getting rid of, I'm sorry, I'm trying to think of the right word, regulations.
00:21:49
john pauley
But I mean, to use an example
00:21:53
john pauley
with respect to nitrates, you know, the the EPA guideline is like...
00:22:05
john pauley
point 0.10 milligrams per something. and And then you look at what people what people in the research recommend, it's lower.
00:22:20
john pauley
So in industry, clearly, right, they that's part of what their lobby does. So they will say, well, we have these regulations in place.
00:22:32
john pauley
This is what the EPA has has said, but the EPA is getting considerable pressure from lobbies.
00:22:43
john pauley
And now they have, right, basically the they have the federal government on their side.
00:22:49
john pauley
And that nitrates and in the Iowa drinking water, in you know, since the turn of the century,
00:22:49
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, that's...
00:23:00
john pauley
have been going up and no one's really doing anything to reduce them. And there's no controversy about nitrates. They're carcinogens.
00:23:11
john pauley
They, they get, they
00:23:11
Daithi Flannery
and
DEI Initiatives in Education: Political Challenges
00:23:12
john pauley
get, uh, they undergo change in the human mouth and they become nitrates, nitrites.
00:23:22
john pauley
They're carcinogenic. There's no doubt about it.
00:23:25
Daithi Flannery
And this this problem preceded Trump too.
00:23:32
Daithi Flannery
So is it a social problem?
00:23:37
john pauley
Definitely.
00:23:38
Daithi Flannery
when we had like Why didn't Barack Obama do something about it, basically?
00:23:38
john pauley
I think so.
00:23:44
john pauley
Well, Barack Obama would have to face up to that powerful, incredibly powerful lobby, and then also have to face up and and come to some realization about the the common the common myths of United States agriculture, you know, feeding the world.
00:24:15
john pauley
Because that's, you know, that's what they say. And that in this state, farming is, you know, it the identity of the state is wrapped up in farming.
00:24:28
john pauley
farming went through a transformation that most people don't really understand. And consequently, when you attack, I've got some very recent editorials from U.S. Senator Joni Ernst, who's, she's a defender of all big agriculture, where, you know, it's like, don't support our farmers, support, you know, the the good old farmer.
00:24:55
john pauley
Really, i mean, what she's talking about now is good old industry.
00:25:04
Daithi Flannery
Support our stock price.
00:25:04
john pauley
So you got to cut down through a bunch of, you know, seriously stuff that, and this is why I think philosophy is so important here is because, you know, to do some cultural philosophy and, and right. Try to understand what all the, how all these voices are interacting.
00:25:25
john pauley
is crucial, right? in and
Racial Bias in Immigration Policies
00:25:27
john pauley
And also setting setting up kinds of rules for discussion, rules for like, not literally, but you know in the background, what you what you can really criticize and what you can't.
00:25:43
john pauley
and And I think that's what that that's being reinforced now from at the federal level.
00:25:52
john pauley
That's the right the authoritarianism. you cant I mean, how do you defend DEI now? it's It's being wiped out. And if and if you don't if you defend it, you run the risk of losing funding.
00:26:07
john pauley
That's what's happening. And that's what's happening with DEI because we're we're a private college, but we also get state funds right It's called the Iowa Tuition Grant.
00:26:21
john pauley
Something like 40% of our students have it. And what the state legislature legislature did was they said, look, if you continue with the DEI stuff, we're going to cut off that tuition grant.
00:26:38
Daithi Flannery
but they won't even give you a clear version of what that DEI stuff is.
00:26:42
john pauley
No, they don't.
00:26:43
Daithi Flannery
It's just...
00:26:44
john pauley
I mean, it right now in the state, it's for us, it's DEI offices. So if you have a DEI officer, you got to get rid of that person. You got to get rid of that office and so on. And they call it... we're calling it now community and belonging or something like that.
00:27:05
john pauley
But i don't I don't like charades. you know I personally don't like the idea of trying to right do something, like continue to do the same thing
00:27:08
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:27:19
john pauley
you know, right under the threat, you know, while recognizing the threat from the government, I would rather just, you know, like push back hard. like But but there you there you're like, okay, if we push back hard, we'll lose funding.
00:27:38
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:27:39
john pauley
And that's not good. That won't be good for students.
00:27:42
Daithi Flannery
No, it it won't be good for anybody. it won't be good for the future.
00:27:47
john pauley
Yeah.
00:27:47
Daithi Flannery
You know, they really won't. And how much of this do you think is is is just racism? I mean, I've
U.S. Racism History in Education and Extremism
00:27:56
Daithi Flannery
seen that Trump is finally willing to take a load of refugees from Africa.
00:28:05
john pauley
I didn't see that.
00:28:06
Daithi Flannery
but it's only one particular place, at South Africa, and it's only white people. I mean, that's kind of obvious.
00:28:14
john pauley
umar
00:28:17
john pauley
I'd like to read about that.
00:28:17
Daithi Flannery
like the Yeah, and
00:28:18
john pauley
i haven't heard about that.
00:28:21
Daithi Flannery
and that's probably because he's buddies with Musk, you know, and here there's horrible things happening to white farmers in South Africa, and they should be helped. But there's plenty of other people in Africa that need help too and I'm not sure why he's just choosing these ones, you know.
00:28:39
Daithi Flannery
Well, I am sure it's because colour of the skin.
00:28:39
john pauley
yeah into the Yeah. Yeah. I think it's probably the case that ignoring American history with respect to
00:28:57
john pauley
prejudice, bigotry, etc. is itself racism. So in so far as you just, you know, that history doesn't really appeal to me.
00:29:12
john pauley
I don't think that history is is something we should be teaching because it makes people feel bad or whatever, you know, idiotic argument they have.
00:29:22
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:29:23
john pauley
It's not, that's racism itself.
00:29:27
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. And it pushes back against their own facts versus feelings kind of thing too. Suddenly they're very snowflake-like, aren't they? They're really...
00:29:38
john pauley
but They are.
00:29:38
Daithi Flannery
and really
00:29:39
john pauley
They're right really, i have, you know, actually, I i know somebody who has a kid who's like, has short discussion is like, you know, they weren't feeling good about the, you know, the narrative of racist America is like well, I mean, sorry, but You know, you can't avoid that unless you want to be an ignoramus.
00:30:07
Daithi Flannery
yeah Yeah, and it's a it's important to to to move forward and to understand it. but Do you think...
00:30:19
Daithi Flannery
i' go put this teeth Do you think the left did go too far in some ways? Do you think that... at a Like, I somehow think that in all the arguments, people get pushed to extreme ideologies.
00:30:34
Daithi Flannery
And I think there was elements of the left that were extreme and they were kind of...
00:30:34
john pauley
Yeah.
00:30:40
Daithi Flannery
a an easy target because of that. And then that became what the left was, was this moralistic stream, at least from the perspective of the right and the slogan slingers, you know.
00:30:55
john pauley
Yeah.
00:30:56
Daithi Flannery
I wonder what you think about that.
00:30:59
john pauley
I do agree with that.
00:31:01
john pauley
i I guess I anecdotally, you know, i I can say that, you know, for our offices, we're supposed to have,
Compelled Speech and Free Speech Boundaries
00:31:13
john pauley
well, there was a lot of pressure to have these safe space signs. And I resisted that.
00:31:22
john pauley
And I also never did the pronouns. I think because, well, I would respect that. People's in class and so on, you know, there if they told me that they their pronoun was such and such, that that's fine.
00:31:40
john pauley
But, for you know, like forcing everyone to have it on their email. i think what that I think what that did, even even if it's a good idea, I think what that did was it it set up the left for mockery.
00:31:57
john pauley
I mean, the the right had had an easy time with that one.
00:32:01
Daithi Flannery
Thank
00:32:01
john pauley
Really easy. and And then a lot of people, right, certainly a lot of citizens, they do not understand transgender. they they There's a lot of stuff they just don't understand.
00:32:17
john pauley
And it then becomes easy for them to mock it. And then that, I mean, actually that puts people's lives in danger. which is you know tragic.
00:32:31
john pauley
but i i do And also the left, would you know they did some language policing. you know it was it was easy for the people on the right to to latch onto that.
00:32:41
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, it was. I think compelled speech was was and always is going to be wrong, no matter which side you're on. I don't think free speech is important.
00:32:52
Daithi Flannery
Of course, it needs to have limits, and but compelled speech is something different, and I don't think that should ever be been done.
00:33:04
Daithi Flannery
yeah I think... I think I've always thought that and I think I've mostly resisted it. But like your yourself, I always have responded and I always made the argument yeah you have to respect everybody.
00:33:15
Daithi Flannery
I don't think that's a, I mean, my one rule in life is always just don't be an asshole. That's the if I, but I doubt I've managed it all the time, but it's, it's, it seems to be a and nice simple rule to hold onto.
00:33:24
john pauley
It's a good rule.
00:33:28
john pauley
Yeah.
00:33:31
Daithi Flannery
So,
00:33:32
john pauley
I don't let, I don't, I have rules, you know, in my, in introductory, it only will come up like in an introductory class and not very often, but you know, there's no, no racial slurs, no, nothing nothing that would like potentially harm another student or, or make them sense that they're not welcome. Or I think you have to be on your guard for stuff like that and, and rule it out.
00:34:01
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:34:02
john pauley
I'm, I'm more, I think I'm more friendly to
Catchy Slogans vs. Reasoned Discussion
00:34:05
john pauley
the, you know, the hate speech laws than a lot of Americans. I, you know, those words do considerable damage to,
00:34:18
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, they
00:34:20
john pauley
You know, and and you hear them quite a bit.
00:34:24
Daithi Flannery
do. There's hate speech laws now over here and the people being arrested for putting things up on online and stuff like that and it's hard to talk to people when they're shouting at you about free speech the but that but that speech was never that free you were never allowed to incite hatred I mean you look through constitutions it's not just an absolute free speech have at it, say what you want there's always been limits to this but
00:34:48
john pauley
Right.
00:34:56
john pauley
Right.
00:34:59
john pauley
Again, a reasonable person, you know, i think a reasonable a reasonable person can agree that there need to be guidelines to, you know, for the possibility of conversation.
00:35:01
Daithi Flannery
a reasonable person.
00:35:11
john pauley
I can't, I can't go in and teach a class and talk about economic disparity. If there's some person in the class you know, spouting racial slurs, which doesn't happen here.
00:35:27
john pauley
It really doesn't. But, you know, any any anyone who would try doing that would would know, right, that these rules, they're there, you know.
00:35:38
john pauley
And so, i yeah, i productive conversation. Reasonable people conducting productive conversation for the education of young people. We need those kinds of boundaries.
00:35:58
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, I totally agree. And that kind of brings me to another
Misplaced Optimism and Socio-Political Challenges
00:36:01
Daithi Flannery
point I wanted to ask you about, and I've been wondering myself recently.
00:36:08
Daithi Flannery
Is logic and reasoning winning against comedy and foolishness? I'm not sure it is. feel like a reasonable people in the rooms are often being put down by the slogan slingers and not heard. And it's the same online, I think, and the same in a lot of places. I went up to the university last week or the week before for a talk about Trump and Europe.
00:36:37
Daithi Flannery
And I agreed with everything that was said. and there was very good speakers up there saying, saying, very insightful things but I don't think anybody in the room disagreed and I wondered at the end are we all in the wrong room where's i mean we're just it's it is I agree with everything but it is a type of echo chamber and we can all pat each other on the back but have we really communicated anything to anybody that needs to hear it I'm not so sure
00:37:12
john pauley
Yeah.
00:37:14
john pauley
Yeah. Right. That that presents a real dilemma, which is how do you, how are you going to address?
00:37:27
john pauley
I've been doing
00:37:30
john pauley
community research with students and we've worked on water quality and and we're doing stuff now on mental health awareness.
00:37:45
john pauley
And when I talk to
00:37:50
john pauley
when when I talk to some people, right, they, they might nod their head and so on, but I get the sense like we're not really having a conversation.
00:38:03
john pauley
Right.
00:38:06
john pauley
And i I'm not sure what it would take to have that conversation.
00:38:12
Daithi Flannery
Thank you.
00:38:13
john pauley
You know, is is it just two extremes, right? with With, yeah, see, but that's that's the other thing is like, what's extreme?
00:38:27
john pauley
You know, you know my sense of it is that in in the United States is that anything that's progressive is extreme now.
00:38:38
john pauley
So so you can't be you can't be for certain things and not be an extremist.
00:38:46
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:38:46
john pauley
And some of those things have to do with, or stand in opposition to what some people on the other side are talking about with respect to meritocracy So you've got all these underlying things that that have to literally be pulled out, you know, in order to have that conversation that you're talking about.
00:39:12
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:39:13
john pauley
and know i You know, if someone could could spell out the context for that, I'd be really happy.
00:39:22
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, I think it's it's something we're going to have to to work on and work towards.
Anti-Intellectualism and Historical Parallels
00:39:30
Daithi Flannery
I worry about, this is going to sound strange, I worry about optimism and hope these days sometimes. Because I see a lot of people I think their optimism and hope is just not a correct appreciation of the reality that we find ourselves in.
00:39:54
Daithi Flannery
And there's still a bit of, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. I'm like, it's, it's clearly not fine, you know? And they seem so hopeful that I, they seem detached to me from what's going on.
00:40:11
Daithi Flannery
Do you find that over there with people?
00:40:14
john pauley
I think so. i think what we need is determination.
00:40:21
Daithi Flannery
Yes. Same here.
00:40:22
john pauley
And like
00:40:25
john pauley
like I'm not, I'm one person who won't, under no condition, none will I give up.
00:40:35
Daithi Flannery
same name
00:40:36
john pauley
And I know other people who are the same way. And I'm also not going to give up on, you know, people who identify themselves as MAGA.
00:40:48
john pauley
i'm not I'm not going to do that because I think i know the power of propaganda. But i got at the same time, I've got to avoid being, whats what's the word, perceived immediately as an elitist.
00:41:06
john pauley
kind of a know-it-all.
Public Health Responsibilities and Vaccine Skepticism
00:41:09
john pauley
You know, so again, we have the, right, we got the difficulty of engagement.
00:41:16
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:41:17
john pauley
And a lot of lot of the people I, you know, I go down to the Friday afternoon, I go down to the pub and I see people from town and I have nice conversations with them, just not about politics.
00:41:34
Daithi Flannery
yeah Yeah, I get you. Somebody once explained to me the difference between hope and optimism, which I really like He said, optimism is something you work towards.
00:41:47
Daithi Flannery
I thought that's that's good.
00:41:49
john pauley
Yeah. That is good, yeah.
00:41:52
Daithi Flannery
So I try to. So my optimism, i can I only allow myself to be optimistic if I'm actually working towards that goal in some way. Otherwise, i see optimism is and and hopefulness as dangerous in some extent.
00:42:08
Daithi Flannery
oh
00:42:10
Daithi Flannery
There seems to be a move towards anti-science, anti-expert, anti-academic, anti-intellectual. I'm finding that here.
00:42:21
john pauley
Definitely.
00:42:22
Daithi Flannery
Are you finding that over there too?
00:42:24
john pauley
Absolutely. And it's deeply worrisome.
00:42:28
Daithi Flannery
Yes, very much so. Because this has happened in other parts of history and the Russian Revolution, the
00:42:35
john pauley
as Right. They don't, because those people can point out, you know, where these authoritarians have simply gone wrong.
00:42:43
Daithi Flannery
Absolutely.
00:42:48
Daithi Flannery
absolutely
00:42:49
john pauley
And I mean, this administration, if you want to like go, if someone really wants to go on a rant about this, I mean, RFK Jr. as the director of health and human services is literally a clown show.
00:43:11
john pauley
he He knows nothing. about disease, epidemic. You can see with the way he's handling the measles epidemic.
00:43:25
john pauley
I don't know if you all have heard about that in Europe, but we have a, we've had a fairly serious outbreak of measles in the Southwest
00:43:29
Daithi Flannery
Something about PeachBets.
00:43:38
john pauley
Texas, and it's spilled into some other states. think it was last time I saw 500 cases. And it's clear that the the epidemic can be, you know, the causality there is a lack of vaccination.
00:43:53
john pauley
And here you have, again, right, the problem with, you know, the problem with people just sort of disregarding experts or thinking they're some sort of like they've got, they're working on some kind of conspiracy.
00:44:09
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:44:11
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:44:11
john pauley
You know, like Fauci, people in the United States, some people in the United States wanted to bring him up on criminal charges.
00:44:18
john pauley
Right. for for his, you know, his medical response to the COVID epidemic.
00:44:30
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, it's a there's a lot of crazy ideas out there, all right. And I think when it comes to COVID, I think there was a lot of mistakes made.
00:44:35
john pauley
Yeah.
00:44:38
Daithi Flannery
I think we largely overreacted to it. But if we had to do it all again, i don't think we'd do it like that.
00:44:46
john pauley
Right.
00:44:46
Daithi Flannery
But at the same time, when situations like this are live, people are making decisions off the of the fly, you know, it's a...
00:44:55
john pauley
I don't want to make light of, I definitely don't want to make light of the COVID disease, but I, you know, let's see, I was, I would have been, I'm 64 now. I think I was 60.
00:45:10
john pauley
And I, and I was, I literally had this sense that for a bit that if I got COVID, you know, I i might have to go to the hospital and, you know, I'm, it was like a cold.
00:45:24
john pauley
And ah ah the the vast majority of the people I knew, that's what it was, that's really what it was like. and And to have a kind of balanced approach where you you really get it it across to people that look, you know, if you're if you're healthy, right, you're the likelihood of of really, you know, becoming desperately ill is really low, like it would be with influenza.
00:45:52
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, but I think most people's fear, including my own, came from I was fairly young and reasonably healthy and I thought, okay, I can get it and I'll take it and I think it will be fine.
00:46:08
Daithi Flannery
What if I give it to my mother or some other person and then I'll be responsible?
00:46:10
john pauley
Right. Right.
00:46:13
Daithi Flannery
And, you know, that's that that's where the real fear came in.
00:46:14
john pauley
Right. That's why I had the shots, you know, I didn't always get the flu vaccine.
00:46:18
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:46:23
john pauley
I'd get it now, but you're right. That's part of being a responsible person.
00:46:31
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:31
john pauley
And so, you know, this whole thing about public health and anti-vaccine, This is insanity on the moral level and also on the political level.
00:46:45
john pauley
you You just, you know, public health is our responsibility. And, you you know, oh, I'm not going to get vaccinated. Well, why not? You know, i don't believe in it.
00:46:59
john pauley
Meanwhile, you can infect someone and kill them.
00:47:04
Daithi Flannery
And I think people expect perfection from these things. And there when they find little holes in the system or where that didn't go wrong or little examples, then they get magnified and blown out of proportion and then see it's all corrupt or it's it's all this or it's all that. It's like nobody promised perfection. Nobody promised utopia.
00:47:27
Daithi Flannery
yeah as you said, you have to be a reasonable person and understand, you know, that's,
00:47:32
john pauley
Yeah.
00:47:33
Daithi Flannery
that's
00:47:33
john pauley
Well, measles is the measles, mumps, diphtheria vaccine really does, you know, if you get that vaccine when you're a kid and you get a booster, chances are you won't even, you won't even get any symptoms. You won't, you just won't get measles. Yeah.
00:47:58
john pauley
That's all there is to it. And, you know, measles is and a really unpleasant and sometimes fatal disease.
00:48:07
john pauley
It's
00:48:08
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, yeah, it is. It killed many people.
00:48:12
john pauley
killed millions of people.
00:48:13
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, yeah. And I guess, yeah, no, i'm I'm not going to argue against vaccines. I think vaccines are great. I was going to try and take the...
00:48:24
Daithi Flannery
the devil's perspective there for a moment, but I won't. it's
00:48:28
john pauley
But yeah, I mean, yeah.
00:48:33
john pauley
It's
00:48:34
john pauley
that maybe if we controlled the context of the discussion to, you know, should I have my children vaccinated, you know, before they go to school, which was when I was a kid, that was the rule.
00:48:51
john pauley
And there there really weren't exemptions. And now there's like religious exemptions, you know, what, what, i mean, you know, I, I'm trying to figure that one out.
00:49:02
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:49:04
john pauley
Like I haven't looked at it, but I mean, what, what would that be? i mean, maybe Jehovah's witness or something, but
00:49:13
Daithi Flannery
don't know maybe it's this new Jedi religion maybe they're not into it the fort yeah
00:49:15
john pauley
but it's in math, you know, thou shalt not, you know, what, whatever.
00:49:22
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, yeah. Look, John, I know your time is limited and it's been great talking to you. I really appreciate it. And hopefully in another few months when you've had your real revolution and taken down Trump, we can have another chat.
00:49:36
john pauley
It'd be great. I really enjoy it. It's fun.
00:49:40
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I enjoy it too, John. I enjoy it too. So, okay, all the listeners, thanks for listening and join us again sometime.
00:49:51
Daithi Flannery
Thank you. Bye-bye.
00:49:53
john pauley
Thank you.