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Ep 15 - Ireland's only court artist - Mike O'Donnell
10 Plays1 month ago
Mike has perhaps the ultimate fly on the wall spot in Ireland. He spends his time in the Highest Courts of the land, observing faces and scenes intensely, as the guit of the accused is argued for and against. Conor McGregor, Gerry Adams, The Monk Gerry Hutch, Diurmd Rossa Phelan, Eamonn Lillis, and many more have been drawn at close quarters by Mike, and he absolutely loves it. Join us as we chat about Mike's career, his art, and some of the moments he is privaliged with observing and recording.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction to Mike O'Donnell
00:00:18
Daithi Flannery
Hello, listeners, and welcome to Philosophactory. Our guest today has been a fly on the wall inside the Irish High Courts in Dublin throughout some of the highest profile cases in recent Irish history.
00:00:31
Daithi Flannery
Amongst them, Conor McGregor versus Nikita Hand, the trial of Jury hurttch Hutch for the murder of David Byrne at the Regency Hotel, the Rosso Fielan case where the solicitor shot a trespasser in the back of the head, and the trial of Aisling Murphy's murderer.
Journey to Becoming a Court Artist
00:00:49
Daithi Flannery
And he has come here to talk to us about it all. Today I bring you court artist, Mike O'Donnell. Hi, Mike, and welcome.
00:00:57
Mike
Hi Dye, thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure so far.
00:01:00
Daithi Flannery
No, it's it's early yet, but we'll we'll see how it goes. ah So tell us, Mike, how out how did you did you fall into this career as a court artist? Was it something you always wanted to be or where did your inspiration come from?
00:01:14
Mike
Yeah, it's funny you should use the word fall because I probably fell into it because I was cycling my bike in late 2009 I got hit by a truck
00:01:26
Daithi Flannery
Amen.
00:01:26
Mike
not I wasn't seriously injured at that, but it kind of put me in all fours on the way from Bannistrand to Tralee on a November morning, or a December morning.
00:01:37
Mike
And I was in between jobs at the time, and I landed, and I literally counted, had out my hands my legs.
00:01:49
Mike
And I said, I have, and I said, I have to do my art, you know, like get fully into it. and within about three weeks, two weeks, three weeks, I found myself in the and the newly opened CCJ building in Dublin and I could see, literally could see the blood through my hands from what I was recording from my injuries and I was drawing Eamon Lilis who was in trial, it was the first murder trial in that building in Dublin and um
00:02:24
Mike
While I was recovering from my injuries the following couple of days the days after the accident, I heard a news report um saying that this new building, which i like to see is a Coliseum in Dublin, a glass Coliseum in Dublin, um was housing the court, the criminal courts.
00:02:45
Mike
But the new arrangements were such that people accused say accused murder accused wouldn't be seen by the media going into the courts because if you remember back in the day prior to that anybody on trial for these serious crimes were brought in on a prison truck and it was a big spectacle to to have them videoed while going into the forecourts say you know and that was to be done away with so I said geez like I
00:03:19
Mike
I love sketch drawing people. I absolutely love it. I have no work, you know. And I said, this is like an opportunity. And I rang, i knew Hugh O'Flaherty, the judge, don from Carson. was Supreme Court judge. So I rang he said, yes, you definitely go for it, do it, you know. And he was all behind me. And I found myself, you know, at that trial.
00:03:42
Mike
And a lot of, I remember a lot of the people who were involved in that trial apart from the accused, ah who are now, you know, gone up the ranks in the legal side of things. They're senior counsel now, and some of them, including Judge Tarryburn, who's judge now.
00:04:00
Mike
So they've, you know, times have changed, times have moved on. And that was the beginning of my, that's how
Transition from Teaching to Art
00:04:06
Mike
I got into it. But if I was to go way back, when I was when i was much younger, ah you know, I'm from Kerry and, like, you're into hard-eating football. We're only into too well I suppose we were only in R.
00:04:19
Mike
Kerry but the lads be out playing football all the time and I'd love to be joining but they wouldn't sit down to be drawn my brothers you know so i couldn't draw anybody at school and check with I saw I happened to be watching a Kojak an episode of Kojak and there was somebody drawing court you know it was probably 9 or 10 at the time i lost home so it was in that seed was in my head
00:04:26
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:04:46
Mike
to to do something like that. And when the courts opened, i don't know, 20 or 30 years later, everything came together. And i that's what that's what I did.
00:04:57
Mike
And I've been at it fairly much since.
00:04:59
Daithi Flannery
You've been that since?
00:05:00
Mike
But I've travelled in the meantime and all that. But if anybody asks me, what do I do? It's court art.
00:05:07
Daithi Flannery
Court art. And and were you were you doing art before this?
00:05:07
Mike
Yeah.
00:05:11
Daithi Flannery
um As in, were you a working artist? where you Or were you were struggling trying to be working artist, as as many artists are?
00:05:19
Mike
yeah for Yeah, well, so I spent a number of years being a teacher and I had no interest in it.
00:05:25
Daithi Flannery
know.
00:05:27
Mike
I loved the children, but I had no interest in adults and a lot of the work was dealing with that and I didn't know interest in that. Not the parents, aren't just
The Courtroom as a Theater
00:05:34
Mike
teachers. And so i left that career and always during my work, I always, I couldn't explain anything, but I used to draw things.
00:05:48
Mike
And that's how I explained as much as I was in my head.
00:05:51
Daithi Flannery
Okay. okay
00:05:52
Mike
So I was always an artist. and Before that, um when I was a young fella, I always wanted to be an architect and wanted to be doing something artistic. And I remember applying back in the 80s when I was a young fella for Crawford, which was very hard to get into at the time in Cork.
00:06:11
Mike
And I got my place. ah But my mum and dad said, Mike, you'll have get a real job, like, you know. So my father retired, he was working with Telecom Arena or I suppose Telecom Arena at the time.
00:06:24
Mike
He retired put so that we'd get a grant to put me through college and the shortest duration degree at that time was teaching. So they sent me off to Mary High Limerick. but i never i So I ended up there and I never wanted to go, I hated it.
00:06:43
Mike
I hated it with a passion.
00:06:45
Daithi Flannery
So you always had the you always had the artist you always had that drive to to draw things.
00:06:45
Mike
And I'm very glad I did it.
00:06:50
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. And they have the, they have the, um, I, I, I did my very first mural up in Limerick in that college and they have the, um, the, the, I won't say notarite is probably the, but they painted over.
00:07:08
Mike
So that was, that was, um, it was a painting of the famine, a big famine scene.
00:07:09
Daithi Flannery
How dare they
00:07:14
Daithi Flannery
Oh,
00:07:15
Mike
And, you know, I think it was indicative of the way you know that type of life didn't suit me you know that my art was erased and i i i won't i hold it against him but it was just a sign for me that i don't belong here i don't belong to that type of profession you know so the the free spirit that's required in art um is suppressed by institutions so i never work for anybody you know and
00:07:27
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:07:33
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:07:36
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:07:46
Daithi Flannery
Okay. And so are you, are you employed now by anybody or is it a freelance thing that you do completely?
00:07:50
Mike
not
00:07:53
Mike
I'm completely free and I'm like the barristers that I work with.
00:07:55
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:07:58
Mike
They're all self-employed and there's there's a kind of a
00:08:00
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
Emotional Cases and Artistic Therapy
00:08:02
Mike
kinsmanship between us.
00:08:04
Mike
Even the journalists I work with, most of them are employed by organisations, you know, newspapers and TV. And I'm self-employed and I'm as free as a bird.
00:08:17
Mike
And I'm as free of these as these people as well because they're very... the There's a distinction. That self-employment to me is a badge of honour.
00:08:28
Mike
you know I don't share it with solicitors, i don't but I share it with the barristers. So I was only chatting with with a barrister the other day on the way to the train station back to Kerry. And we were regaling the freedom, that self, and the kind of... There's also insecurity.
00:08:43
Mike
And without that insecurity, they'd like, no. they'd be the appetite for creating and for being imaginative would be suppressed. you know I think that insecurities are so important.
00:08:54
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:08:56
Mike
you know When you get up in morning, you don't know what's going to...
00:08:57
Daithi Flannery
like
00:08:59
Mike
you You have to negotiate your wages every week. And every work I have, I'm putting everything into it. And then i then <unk>d say to myself, who am I going to sell this to? And it's like that every day.
00:09:16
Mike
And... but they always come at me, you know, the bar.
00:09:21
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:09:22
Mike
And I, you know, they um they they ah they understand that the type of work that I do. I understand them. And we, the relationship is symbiotic.
00:09:35
Daithi Flannery
Okay. Okay.
00:09:37
Mike
They feed me, I feed their ego. And their ego, their ego is very important to them. And I i respect that.
00:09:46
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
00:09:47
Mike
ah Yeah, and the judges as well.
00:09:49
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:09:50
Mike
And, you know, but it was, you know, it's it's really... I was just chatting to my brother. He landed down from Limerick there earlier and we were saying how lucky I am to be doing what I do, you know, because I absolutely love it.
00:10:05
Mike
And I can't... I'll tell you, Di, I can't wake up to... I can't wait to wake up in the morning and go into court, you know. And it takes... You know, I will often wake up at 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning And said, can't wait. Go in.
00:10:22
Mike
know Can you believe that? And there was the there are a lot of people out there who dread the only escape they have from slavery that they're enduring at work is sleep.
00:10:24
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. That
00:10:33
Mike
But for me, it's kind of a place where I can dream of being back in court again. It's
Legal Challenges and Defense of Art
00:10:38
Mike
incredible. so just stole I'm one of the most...
00:10:39
Daithi Flannery
ah there
00:10:41
Mike
I consider myself the most privileged Definitely one of the most privileged people in the world.
00:10:52
Mike
not ah and And more importantly, in Kerry.
00:10:53
Daithi Flannery
no
00:10:53
Daithi Flannery
at i
00:10:56
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:10:56
Mike
ah
00:10:57
Daithi Flannery
Well, it it is it is a unique a unique position you take in the court because everybody else in the court is there for a reason.
00:10:57
Mike
ah but
00:11:05
Daithi Flannery
I mean, i do I'm wondering how many people in the court the night before were thinking, geez, I can't wait to go into court tomorrow.
00:11:05
Mike
yeah
00:11:12
Mike
Yeah, i know very few.
00:11:12
Daithi Flannery
I mean... witnesses judges people who are there on trial themselves very few of them ah want to be there you know but uh but but you do have a privilege fly on the wall position there that is quite unique is it is it a competitive field in ireland is there many people doing it you're the only court artist in ireland
00:11:22
Mike
Yeah, that's right.
00:11:32
Mike
No, I'm the only one. And I understand that I'm the only one to be doing it professionally and full time.
00:11:43
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:11:43
Mike
Ever.
00:11:44
Daithi Flannery
Ever in Ireland.
00:11:45
Mike
Ever, yeah.
00:11:47
Daithi Flannery
Wow.
00:11:47
Mike
And that's going way back. That's going back pre the foundation of the state because a lot of our, any artists who ever went in were, were working elsewhere. They weren't a hundred percent and, you know, they were visiting kind of.
00:12:01
Daithi Flannery
Hmm.
Court Art vs. Photography
00:12:02
Mike
And in my case, it's a hundred percent. And I, for the last, definitely for the last year, I don't work for anybody. I'm completely devoted to this. And and just the more I'm in it, the more I'm staying, you know,
00:12:16
Mike
Like there were times when I spent, you know, a couple of days a week, maybe two days a week. Now I'm in there four and five days a week. And that's how I earn my butter, bread and butter.
00:12:29
Mike
And i I'm very privileged because every day I go in and meet somebody new.
00:12:29
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:12:36
Mike
and ah so I've built up over the years, like massive human capital, if there's such a thing, you know. And i find... I find that I can go from world to world in the sense of I could be meeting, you know, what polite society might call cutthroats and villains and vagabonds.
00:12:58
Mike
And the following day, like the last day, billionaire, millionaires, fraudsters, thieves, robbers, people certain in their own rights that they want to keep their house and maybe somebody fighting over a will or somebody, you know, challenging family, maybe challenging, you know, some decision by a health board or something, or, you know, HSE or some, somebody fighting for to clear their name as a result of some messing by a school or somebody has been sacked by, you know, some institution unfairly in their fight. So there's all you all kinds of, and in my job, I've no, as you said, I've no skin in the game.
00:13:44
Mike
I'm not, I don't have a position on on any of them, but I'm lucky that I can, um the art side is only one side, the other side of it is the human interaction side of which is, you know, yeah i wouldn't have the capacity to do the art hadn't I the developed the human side of it, the interaction side of it, and equally, you know,
00:14:09
Mike
There's no way I'd have been able to speak to these people if if I hadn't the art as well. you know So it's very, it's very, um it's it's it's kind of a a means of connecting with people. And that's what the art is. Art is meant to be social.
00:14:24
Mike
not I'm socialising the artistic side of things, if that makes sense.
00:14:28
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, it sounds like you get a huge amount of meaning out of it, Mike. um what Why do we have sketch artists rather than photographers in courts in Ireland?
00:14:40
Mike
Yeah, so um
00:14:43
Mike
back in, during the, I suppose, 1910s, 110 years or whatever, um cameras began to enter courts.
00:14:58
Mike
And the big trials, as you know, were in London, not in Dublin, you know, like the Roger Caseman trial. And in that particular case, there was a famous photograph of him in the old bailiff sitting up in the front behind, sitting in the the box, dipped the dock.
00:15:17
Mike
And there was a lot of sensationalization of murder trials and in London at the time. So somehow, I haven't investigated the actual act, but they banned image making in courts eventually in England. But that ban didn't extend to Ireland.
00:15:39
Mike
But photography was never, because the big trials weren't in Ireland, there was no photographer, you know, but photography.
00:15:43
Daithi Flannery
Mm-hmm.
00:15:46
Mike
But the image making continued, but it was very little because there was very little happening in Ireland. Trial was, as as I said, the big trials were in London. And the British seemed to continue with that.
00:15:58
Mike
And the Irish, our jurisdiction, separate states, just everything was ah as. And there were a couple of trials where image making was put. It was just there, but not ever challenged or never a kind of um nobody did it really in Ireland. Only the very odd time.
00:16:26
Mike
I think there was joined on a tribunal at one stage. Now, somebody will come along and say, oh, and such and such a tribe. right I just don't have the knowledge of it. Right. um And I just had a feeling there was an image created probably in the 80s of some tribe. I just can't remember what it was.
00:16:43
Mike
But anyway, um
High-profile Cases and Artistic Expression
00:16:45
Mike
it was never challenged and never became an issue issue in court until last October.
00:16:53
Daithi Flannery
Oh, yes.
00:16:54
Mike
And...
00:16:54
Daithi Flannery
this this is this is This is what first step first brought you onto my radar was this case. And continue.
00:17:04
Mike
Yeah, so... um Something very interesting happened. um It was the very first morning of the new legal year, last October tenth or 11th.
00:17:17
Mike
And um I arrived in at this very high profile murder trial, which was of Dearmead Losset-Feedling, who was accused of murdering intruders in his land.
00:17:29
Mike
And so it was a very, very interesting case because of didnt but he was a barrister. And... You know, just this whole the whole prospect of a barrister and trial for murder in the central criminal court was, like, massive.
00:17:43
Mike
And, you know, there was a lot of speculation about it. And, you know, it was land and, you know, a lot of country people were interested in it. And obviously at the upper echelons of sight, you were as well. Everybody was.
00:17:57
Mike
And so I landed in. And before I had, literally before I had, Generally, during the beginning of ah of ah of a trial or a pretrial, there's i never start drawing, of course. I just take a few moments because everybody has settled into the... They've settled down because sometimes they're moving around, looking around, and then they'll eventually go into a kind of ah place where they feel comfortable, and they're generally kind of relaxed, and then I'll start drawing. So this is the beginning of ah what's called a pretrial hearing where lawyers will be discussing
00:18:31
Mike
you know, what evidence, arguing over what evidence would be permissible to be put before the jury. it's no jury yet. So there was a pretrial hearing and the very, very, very, very first thing ah that happened was that the defence stood up and said they didn't want the court artists to be present and and to draw their client because his image would endanger his life.
00:19:03
Mike
you know And this was objected to by the DPP and I was kind of a little bit mortified because and I won't say terrified, that's the wrong word but I was kind of a bit disturbed because and if they had ruled, if they had decided that the court are artist isn't allowed work in the court, it was effectively game up for me, you know, I was going back to Kerry and trying to figure out what I do for the rest of my artistic life and so on.
00:19:36
Mike
So it was very high stakes. And anyway, they argued, but cut long story short, I was brought up to the stand and i was asked to defend myself. And iite as hughor flaerty's ruling ninety ninety nine where two thousand note me later I the media,
00:19:57
Mike
are the eyes and ears of the people in the court and also the constitutional right to work. I just knew that. And there was i ah there was also a colleague who was kind of teeing me up as well. like And it was very, very quiet because the judge had gone.
00:20:11
Mike
The legal teams as were conferring amongst themselves. And i was I didn't know what to expect. But I was brought up to the stand. I couldn't not go up to the stand. I couldn't just leave the court because If the judge directs you to up to the stand, you just have to go up to the stand. So I was unprepared and I cited these and the judge, yeah as it happened, about half an hour previously, I was up in ah and another judge's chambers chatting to him about some artwork that I had done. So I felt quite a comfortable going up and defending my art.
00:20:50
Mike
And I said that, and I was like just, I'm actually just down from Judge So-and-So's Chambers. And I was asked, how are you at this? And have you any qualifications? I said, no. And, you know, what gives you the right blah, blah, blah. And I was really pushed to the pin of my collar.
00:21:07
Mike
But what stuck in my mind was the view I had from, could see everything. I could see everything. I saw the judge. I could see the counsel. I could see the accused.
00:21:20
Mike
I could see the guy cross-examining me who was a towering figure of the bar. And I could see all I could have the view from the stand is unbelievable. But anyway, ah in the heel of the hunt, the judge ruled my favour.
00:21:34
Mike
And that's that's effectively a High Court ruling which said that the court artist quite entitled to do his work.
00:21:42
Daithi Flannery
So that stands now as, as, uh, yeah.
00:21:44
Mike
That stands. But having said that, though, back in 2010 when I did start, I was drawing an alleged rapist. And i suppose there was some concern. And Judge Kearney said that I'm very happy to have the court artist.
00:21:59
Mike
This is the judge speaking court in here. And he he's doing work that reaches way back into antiquity and his work is valued. So that's like a high court position.
00:22:09
Daithi Flannery
Hmm.
00:22:10
Mike
But, you know, times past, people forget. the corporate memory fades, you know, so yeah, it was a good amount, but that, yeah, so now I, the days and weeks and months and ever since, I feel completely vindicated and, you know, there's always the danger it could be challenged and I feel that it gave me a huge impetus to, to, to commit 110% work it's valued, you know, because,
00:22:15
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, that's true. That's true. But but it's it's it's good to get it set down as a legal precedent. praise and
00:22:41
Mike
and i feel it's value you know
00:22:43
Daithi Flannery
That's great.
00:22:44
Mike
Nobody, um there is no, nobody on the outside can see what goes on in the courts. Only through my hands and eyes, you know. And that's a real privilege.
00:22:54
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:22:56
Mike
It's a real privilege. I don't both, it's just so special for me. I remember table outside bringing in a ah red top newspaper to my mother.
00:23:07
Mike
She's dead now year. And said, look at that. There was a drawing of a fellow, a rapist, you know, and ah the title was Evil Bastard Caged, right?
00:23:23
Mike
And my what do you do that for? She said, what's that? What do you do? You know, but this was, ah this was, I always felt a bit of a chill doing work afterwards.
00:23:36
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah.
00:23:37
Mike
But and this was very important. the, so all the literally the following day, literally before I got messages and I got people saying, fair play, you know, and from barristers and from like everybody, it kind of was very, I got great support from everybody.
00:23:57
Mike
In fact, the the guy who cross-examined me is a great friend of mine now, you know, and he's, but it isn't, he's only doing what the, he's only doing his job to represent the clients, so it's nothing personal at all, and I understand all that, you know, so.
00:24:09
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, I remember I was following that case a bit and I was one of them people who read about you going up on the stand and I said, well, fair play to him. Because just to give people a bit of background of the case, on February 22nd, 2022, Phelan encountered Conlon and two other men trespassing on his property, allegedly engaging in illegal badger baiting.
00:24:35
Daithi Flannery
Concerned about a Lutcher dog threatening his sheep, Phelan shot the dog.
00:24:39
Mike
Thank you.
00:24:40
Daithi Flannery
This led to a confrontation where Phelan claimed he felt threatened as the men advanced towards him. He fired three shots from his revolver and the third struck Conlon in the back of the head.
00:24:52
Daithi Flannery
Conlon died two days later in hospital. ah This case for me, i was very shocked at the result of this case um because I felt like this barrister, particularly when he was immediately making challenges that his image shouldn't be leave the court as though he was in the wrong place and he shouldn't actually be there. it was It was for lesser people to be in his position, apparently.
00:25:22
Daithi Flannery
um And I felt that he had this kind of indignant attitude that no matter what happened, he had a gun in his hand, it went off and the bullet went through the back of a man's head.
00:25:38
Daithi Flannery
I thought he was certainly in the right place and the public certainly had a right to see his image and hear the case out. um How do you feel about how that case played out?
00:25:50
Mike
um All those cases in the criminal courts are tragic. You know, and I suppose i'd feel I feel far on balance, I feel for the family of the victims.
00:26:12
Mike
And I i maintain they they They attended every day and it was one of the longest trials ever. Went on for months and months and months.
00:26:23
Daithi Flannery
This is the kind the Conlon family of the man who died here.
00:26:23
Mike
Went on Christmas. Conlon. Conlon family, yeah. And I think they they came away in the end with nothing.
00:26:34
Mike
And I think the
00:26:40
Mike
the ah the other side, the barrister, was entitled, of course, to represent himself or have his interests represented.
00:26:52
Mike
And they obviously did a great job in that. And i I suppose it's very hard to remove. I mean, I'm i'm not there to judge me, you know, but I mean, the fact that I was brought up was, i in the end, I think just,
00:27:12
Mike
a signal, I suppose, a sign that they would use every, he would use every opportunity to scupper.
00:27:20
Mike
But in the end, was a jury decided that's the law. But I always is feel for those, that family, you know, and I, under the law, under the law, justice was done.
00:27:37
Mike
But, uh,
00:27:40
Mike
I just wonder about the whole moral law, if there is one, you know, was justice.
00:27:49
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:27:50
Mike
That's all.
00:27:51
Mike
I mean, I don't have any... You have to accept the... And I accept the outcome, but it just it's very sad.
00:27:51
Daithi Flannery
like
00:27:59
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, yeah, it it doesn't, it leaves a bad taste in the tongue, in the mouth, whatever, whatever happened. It just, to me, it appeared and I wasn't as close to it as you were. I was only following in the newspapers, but...
00:28:12
Daithi Flannery
It seemed very much to be a battle of of resources and of finances in a large way. ah One side was the barrister who had obviously all the legal expertise and no doubt friends in the and the trade as well that could help him.
00:28:31
Daithi Flannery
and And the other side was a not well off, but apparently by all accounts very nice family um who didn't have those resources.
00:28:44
Daithi Flannery
But as you said, we have to we have to stick with the with the court's findings.
00:28:51
Mike
Yeah, there are a lot of cases where, you know, um
00:28:56
Mike
where
00:28:58
Mike
you know, the public receives, say, the reportage and very quickly say, I should have got more than that. I should have got lesser. Well, generally, he should got more, you know. But in the end, it isn't even the jury. It's the judge who knows all the facts.
00:29:16
Mike
The judge knows all the facts. The judge reads reports that aren't available to media. They have background reports and stuff. So you hear, you know, somebody giving out about a judge.
00:29:29
Mike
not giving a, you know, say a long sentence, say say for example to a paedophile or something like that daughter or somebody who has downloaded or whatever. And the fact is that these people are highly professional people. Like they are im highly, like very well versed in the law and in real life, you know, and they know all the facts.
The Humanity and Dignity in Court
00:29:53
Mike
And so great regard for them and they manage really complex kind of, issues and um you know i've i've actually great time i'm not saying i am like i'm at their mercy you know in the court i know that but i'm also i've dealt with them i've seen them at work and they are very very um they're huge really proud highest regard for them if you ask me who who do i have highest regard for it's the judges
00:30:21
Daithi Flannery
the judges.
00:30:23
Mike
The judges, yeah. Even some of them get flack, but what they meant and how like humane they are as well, you know, and they're aware, like even, even, you know, people in trial for murder or for, um say hit man or something like that, or, or alleged rapist or the satchel, you know, recent, um, these people, the judges know that they're, they're,
00:30:51
Mike
the whole apparatus of the state, which is endless resources, like is, is, you know, hanging over these people. And they, they're treated with real dignity in the court, even though, you know, they may be guilty of, in the end, of terrible crimes.
00:31:10
Mike
and And to afford them that dignity, like is, is, I think, very, very special, you know. It isn't, I can see that, but it isn't that I sympathise with It's just that they they are afforded the human dignity, no matter of what they've done.
00:31:26
Mike
And it troubles me, you know, when I don't work for them anymore. But any any kind of media organisation that calls people, you know, you know, bastards or devils or brutes or thugs or anything like that, you know, they're they're humans in the end. And in the beginning, they were just born into, a lot of them were born into conditions were they didn't have a chance they didn't have choices about that you and I have had say and you know to make a very simple judgment of them it just it's it's demeaning not ah only of them but of of of the people who make that judgment you know and I trust kind of people who are very quick to cast aspersions on others like you know without kind of understanding and kind of
00:32:21
Mike
checking out facts and evidence and, you know, and, you know, even if I did that, I wouldn't be qualified to, to, um, uh, you know, to, to judge them at all, you know?
00:32:31
Mike
So the judge, they're professional judges.
00:32:34
Mike
They have all the evidence and all the facts, you know, and, uh, I really have great regard for them.
00:32:34
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:32:42
Daithi Flannery
I suppose that's probably something that ah we the public maybe don't take account of enough is that judges, solicitors, police, they're not robots, they're not machines. There's a human being behind every one of them there who's trying to do the right thing, at least most of the time.
00:32:59
Mike
Yeah, I think so.
00:32:59
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:33:00
Mike
um So in the courts, you have prison officers, you have court officials, you know, who are working, you know, for the state and the management of the courts. and And you have the judges, you have jury who peers brought in off the street.
00:33:18
Mike
You have journalists who are recording for their news organisations. You have police, you have specialists, police or guards, you have your victims, their families, you have alleged perpetrators, their families, their partners.
00:33:38
Mike
You have all these, you have, of course, the legal teams, the solicitors in the front facing the, and then you have the, you have the seasoned senior counsel, their junior counsel, and then behind them,
00:33:54
Mike
the devils or the pupils of the junior council. So it's like a film set, you know, and each has has a particular role to play. I've been on a few films that you probably have yourself.
00:34:05
Mike
You see the way everybody operates, apparently independently, but in the under direction of the the director, obviously. But that's the way the court is. It's like a film set.
00:34:15
Mike
But the stakes are real and they're really high, you know, and it's like theatre without the acting.
00:34:22
Daithi Flannery
oh that's That's a very good way of putting it
00:34:23
Mike
You know, it really
00:34:26
Daithi Flannery
um Do you see yourself as a type of reporter? Are you or? Hmm.
00:34:36
Mike
is. I'm a visual, I suppose, visual reporter. I'm recording. And it's not instant, it takes time. And in fact, at the McGregor trial,
00:34:52
Mike
just to show you the difference, you know, people always ask about photography and, you know, court art, and I was drawing the full scene, because I love drawing full scenes, I just get, drawing one person is just, it's just not not very interesting to me, but to draw the full scene, and to try and through that, capture the atmosphere, and the goings on, and the busyness of the court, and maybe do terror in the and the,
00:35:22
Mike
maybe elation at times of what's going on. um So I start on one, generally on the left and on the right, then I go, I travel the court. So it takes, it could take me an hour like to get through through everybody, like all the way up to the judge and whichever is on the stand.
00:35:45
Mike
So to show you the difference between photography, as I understand it, and drawing, there was McGregor was sitting there and his father and beyond him was James Lawrence.
00:35:59
Mike
Was he James Lawrence? He was co-accused in the case. And then you had the families and the solicitors and then the senior counsel and then the judge and who was on the stand. So there I was drawing McGregor, his father and then James Lawrence and then, you know, all the way up.
00:36:14
Mike
And then as I proceeded up, I started drawing who was on the stand and it was James Lawrence. So it was then it occurred to me, mean, how could a camera possibly do do something so stupid, you know?
00:36:28
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:36:28
Mike
and But I mean, it was kind of like, okay, well, it is different to photography. It's like two James Lawrence's in the... Yeah.
00:36:36
Daithi Flannery
And and i guess i guess a ah picture is taken like a moment in time.
00:36:36
Mike
ah but
00:36:43
Mike
Yeah.
00:36:44
Daithi Flannery
One still moment. But I guess what you're trying to capture in your art is the day's events in in one composition.
00:36:52
Mike
Yeah.
00:36:54
Daithi Flannery
As you said yourself, the emotion...
00:36:55
Mike
yeah
00:36:58
Daithi Flannery
the situation, the the the vibe of the of the whole time you're trying to capture in this one image, whereas a camera can just capture that one moment in time.
00:37:07
Mike
Yes, yeah. So it is a different art form, Dai, you know.
00:37:12
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:37:12
Mike
It's a different art form. And you know you think of, say, you know the great artists like, just say, Bacon or Lucian Freud doing a po doing a portrait of somebody.
00:37:25
Mike
And could you imagine if somebody said, um Lucy, I wonder, would a photograph be a bit better now when you're drawing the naked or whatever? but but And i like they're just two separate. They're so distinct, aren't they?
00:37:42
Mike
Art forms.
00:37:43
Daithi Flannery
Yes, they are. They are.
00:37:44
Mike
It's like journalism.
00:37:44
Daithi Flannery
They are.
00:37:45
Mike
And I'm sure when, you know, ah radio came, what's the point in newspapers? you know Maybe that conversation, but it didn't last very long because they're two separate separate things, right?
00:37:56
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:37:58
Mike
So my work is on paper.
00:37:58
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:38:00
Mike
It's not too far from, in my own mind, from the work in the caves back 40,000 years ago. It's the same thing. The only thing is my work is live, you know.
00:38:14
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:38:14
Mike
And the difference between my work and the work that's done in the UK is that their work isn't life. Their work is after, they're not allowed, you see. And that's really, that makes, that makes my work even more, pri more special in my own head.
00:38:29
Mike
That like, they're not allowed to draw in.
00:38:30
Daithi Flannery
no you're right they they're not allowed to actually draw in the court
00:38:34
Mike
the So we're much more sophisticated in art, I think. And I think that the, the courts value the art is like, really good.
00:38:45
Mike
you know It's a great sign of our country as a democracy. and We're a new, you know it's a new country and in in that, in the constitutional sense, say.
00:38:51
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
Notable Figures and Unique Experiences
00:38:57
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:38:58
Mike
And um I think that it shows great sophistication.
00:39:02
Daithi Flannery
It does.
00:39:02
Mike
I honestly do. If I may say so.
00:39:04
Daithi Flannery
No, no, no. not that i ah
00:39:06
Mike
Much more sophisticated than the English system, even though, you know.
00:39:10
Daithi Flannery
I think you might be slightly biased towards that opinion, but that's okay. being
00:39:14
Mike
ah fuck
00:39:14
Daithi Flannery
Being the only ever court artist in Ireland that might lean you a certain way.
00:39:16
Mike
ah ah A pardonable bias, right?
00:39:20
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:39:21
Mike
A forgivable bias.
00:39:22
Daithi Flannery
ah Oh, absolutely.
00:39:23
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:24
Daithi Flannery
But up but ah speaking of bias, if you're there um listening to a court case, and as we said, the judge is the only one and the jury who is a professional judge and who has to make the decisions, but yet you're still digesting all the evidence.
00:39:25
Mike
okay yeah
00:39:32
Mike
yeah
00:39:47
Daithi Flannery
When you're drawing a person then, the accused say,
00:39:48
Mike
Yeah.
00:39:53
Daithi Flannery
um Do you have an opinion, an implicit opinion of guilt or innocence? And then do you try and put that into the painting or do you try and do everything you can to keep that out of it?
00:40:11
Mike
um
00:40:13
Mike
i think i think um I think I learned very early on in this work that they're just humans. Humans are what I'm drawing. And I'll tell you what happened to me.
00:40:28
Mike
There was a lot... the very, very first case I was involved in ah was the Aaron Lippis case. And I had the... you know I'd read what was in the papers about it. It was terrible, you know tragic and stuff.
00:40:43
Mike
So I had no idea of what I was walking into. So I went in and was drawing and so on. And think one of the first days I went into the lift and it's a big, tall lift to to that court. And who joined me on the, Eamon Lewis.
00:41:01
Mike
And he's just like a normal guy, you know. And I said, best of luck now on this, you know. And he said, oh, thanks very much. Probably, like,
00:41:15
Mike
It could have been a fella over the wall, you know what I mean?
00:41:18
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:41:21
Mike
He wasn't the monster that people would have imagined. written at that or you know
00:41:25
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:41:26
Mike
Very early on, I discovered these people just, they're actually normal people in in behind it all and in court. you know
00:41:33
Daithi Flannery
Absolutely. i think I think that scares most of us because...
00:41:38
Mike
That's the thing, yeah.
00:41:39
Daithi Flannery
because we we we like to think they're something completely separate and different to what we are ourselves. But but but I'm afraid the truth is they're human beings too.
00:41:49
Mike
They're human beings too. And I remember Dahi looking out a window when I started first. And, you know, what these people are can have done, like, is terrible, you know.
00:42:00
Mike
But I was thinking, what's out there is much more dangerous than what's in here, you know. What's out there amongst the, you know, the city of all around. It's much safer in here than it is out there, you know. It's just, I had that thought, you know.
00:42:16
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:42:16
Mike
and and between in the last 15 years, like how many people have been taken in and what have they done and, you know, what they've been convicted of, like is, you know, not, not pleasant to think about, you know, so, um, yeah, so they are human.
00:42:30
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:42:33
Mike
So to answer your question, uh, I, I don't really, and I don't have, I don't, I'm not really that interested in, in whether they're guilty or not, to be honest.
00:42:43
Daithi Flannery
OK. okay
00:42:45
Mike
Um, i like I've had great experiences with a lot of them.
00:42:48
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:42:49
Mike
They've held the door for me, for example, lot of times. And then there was one lady who was involved in a cult. She murdered the husband. had him beaten with a shovel.
00:43:02
Mike
And I think the background there was abusive and whatever. But she held the door for me. And she was, minutes later, she was put away for life, never seen again.
00:43:14
Mike
You know?
00:43:14
Daithi Flannery
well
00:43:15
Mike
And... I always thank for she was just that little bit kind to me, you know.
00:43:19
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:43:20
Mike
You know, and so maybe that was the last kind act she had on her liberty.
00:43:26
Daithi Flannery
Maybe. In her liberty and her liberty, but maybe not in her life, hopefully.
00:43:27
Mike
yeah You know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:30
Daithi Flannery
um
00:43:33
Daithi Flannery
Is there any face that walked in that you just said, oh that's going to be a great face to draw? ah that's That's the perfect face now. I can't wait to get my i pen to paper for that one.
00:43:48
Mike
yeah Yeah,
00:43:52
Mike
yeah I've been thinking about this now.
00:43:56
Mike
The best face. Well, I suppose the most distinguished face I've drawn is definitely the monk.
00:44:06
Daithi Flannery
Okay, what an interesting character he is.
00:44:07
Mike
Yeah. And ah he hadn't been seen for years and years publicly. He'd been seen with a cap in his head at the funeral of his nephew. know and that was all very tragic and so on but he hadn't been seen publicly but i felt him before i felt him almost before i saw him you know i didn't know who these three lads were who's who but i kind of thought that must be him you know um because he had this very granite strong uh somebody asked me some time ago oh you'd go he had he had spent his 40 days and 40 nights in the desert
00:44:47
Mike
kind of, you know, and he had this biblical kind of aura about him.
00:44:48
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:44:52
Mike
And he struck me as as a really good subject. And I like to say that all the barristers are my muses, but he stood out amongst the mostly the accused and had an aura, no matter what anybody says, he he had an aura about him.
00:45:05
Daithi Flannery
okay
00:45:12
Mike
And I know what aura is because i was on the road to Bally Bunyan with my young daughter when she was about two and a half and she was sick. And I stopped the car and I got out and there was whole lot helicopters and police around the place.
00:45:26
Mike
You know, I only brought her out for, um to give her a bit of fresh air in a September. And who stopped on the road? Only Bill Clinton.
00:45:34
Daithi Flannery
well
00:45:35
Mike
And he had ah magic about him. And there was about 15 or 20 people on the side of the road and he shook my hand at my daughter and he was the last And as he was coming down though the the length, you know, and all the people were there and they were shaking his hands, he seemed to make eye contact with everybody.
00:45:58
Mike
And everybody felt that he he was, I was talking to him afterwards, he was only there to meet them. And I felt like that, that he was only there to meet me.
00:46:04
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:46:07
Mike
He didn't have any interest in the rest of the gang lying on the road, only myself, you know.
00:46:11
Daithi Flannery
ah
00:46:12
Mike
He had that, that, Aura, and so did your men have this aura as well.
00:46:18
Daithi Flannery
So the monk had a similar aura to Bill Clinton.
00:46:20
Mike
He had an aura. Yeah, he had an aura.
00:46:23
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:46:24
Mike
Yeah.
00:46:24
Daithi Flannery
ah no I totally get what you're saying. I think I've i've met one or two people
00:46:27
Mike
ah yeah
00:46:30
Daithi Flannery
one or two people like that in my life. but um And when you hear the monk being described as a veteran criminal, there's something about those two words being put together.
00:46:38
Mike
yeah
00:46:42
Daithi Flannery
It's like a veteran soldier. it's a Well, he must be bloody good at it. So, you know, if you if you're a veteran in that kind of trade, um you must be kind of handy enough at it you must have something about you to be able to continue doing it.
00:46:47
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. yeah
00:46:58
Daithi Flannery
And Definitely the way he.
00:47:00
Mike
But he had he had the visual of it as well. He had the kind of lion's mane, you know.
00:47:06
Daithi Flannery
Okay. Yeah.
00:47:06
Mike
And he was also very fit and strong looking, which I thought was interesting.
00:47:10
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:47:12
Mike
And the other lads were probably of similar age, like were just normal Josephs by comparison.
00:47:20
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:47:21
Mike
And so was everybody else around the same age in the court, you know.
00:47:24
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:47:25
Mike
So he stood out like that. So he was very interesting to draw. But there were others as well. But he would just be the kind of, I suppose, the the the great kahuna, you know, of the...
00:47:37
Daithi Flannery
And you didn't just draw him in court though, did you?
00:47:40
Mike
No, I met him.
00:47:42
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:47:42
Mike
I found myself in his house. couple of months afterwards because I had been, when I was drawing in court, I was sick and I had spend a few months in hospital and I had just had a hard time.
00:47:53
Mike
And when I came out, I wanted to do what I suppose, I at Gerry Adams' trial. you remember they just described things as a spectacular? I wanted to do a spectacular.
00:48:05
Mike
I wanted to do a kind of a Regency style um artistic endeavour, you know, without having anybody killed.
00:48:11
Daithi Flannery
ah Okay.
00:48:13
Mike
And so I did this, I visited him at, you know, i wanted I wanted to draw him, sit him down properly and we I did.
00:48:26
Mike
And I brought him up like a tack from Kerry and I spent a few hours and ah out of that I created an exhibition and that was very successful.
00:48:35
Daithi Flannery
Yes. sir
00:48:35
Mike
and And he visited them as well, which is very interesting.
00:48:36
Daithi Flannery
Lovely. That was called
00:48:38
Mike
and I came out from Dublin and so I showed him around. That was it.
00:48:44
Daithi Flannery
of where Where was the exhibition released?
00:48:45
Mike
I didn't use It was on...
00:48:47
Daithi Flannery
Is that what it was called?
00:48:47
Mike
Yeah, it was on an endless stole.
00:48:48
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:48:50
Mike
But it was kind of, was definitely a spectacular. Like, it was not what was expected.
00:48:54
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Wow.
00:48:56
Mike
And it was absolutely thronged, the opening. I expected maybe 25 people maybe to be in the foyer. There was easily 200 people at it. Like, it was from all walks of life.
00:49:06
Daithi Flannery
Wow.
00:49:07
Mike
Yeah, all walks life. And it was like... And Jim Sheridan, the director, opened it. And... That was nice.
00:49:15
Daithi Flannery
it's it's It's just strange how much of a draw Jerry Hutch is and the character that he is. um Like people who certainly don't support criminality, but but but there's something very unique about Jerry Hutch that draws people in.
00:49:34
Mike
Yeah. I think there is... fascination with these people who have, you know, are, I suppose, I don't what it is, it's something mysterious.
00:49:49
Mike
And as you say, people who don't support criminalization that are intrigued by it, know, so across all walks of life, you know, and yeah, that was interesting.
00:49:56
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:50:02
Daithi Flannery
yeah that's true i suppose uh all the tv shows we watch about serial killers at the the crime scene investigate that we definitely much we are kind of somewhat enthralled by all that
00:50:04
Mike
Yeah.
00:50:07
Mike
yeah
00:50:11
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. People are. Yeah. I don't know why. ah maybe Maybe people have to have a witch in life, in life you know, or somebody who represents the order of underworld or the other world. or maybe, I don't know, maybe it's something that to do with that.
00:50:30
Daithi Flannery
that's funny you bring up witches when I was doing a bit of research for this conversation the first sketch artists were in the Salem witch trials apparently so the first court sketch artists yeah yeah so yeah yeah maybe maybe we do need witches we need bad guys yeah we can think ourselves good
00:50:38
Mike
That's right. Yeah.
00:50:41
Mike
Yeah, that's right. That's where it goes back to. Yeah.
00:50:50
Mike
This is it. Yeah. Possibly. Yeah. But there's there's there't enough of them around, you know.
00:50:57
Daithi Flannery
that's That's for sure.
00:50:57
Mike
no.
00:50:58
Daithi Flannery
That's for sure we've we've we've we've never been
00:50:59
Mike
These people crop
00:51:01
Daithi Flannery
We've never been ah lacking bad guys to
Challenges of Capturing Courtroom Emotions
00:51:05
Mike
no no and they they all like these people crop up, know. And you see now the late, the the satchel, he's the latest. And there'll be another one now in a few months, you know.
00:51:06
Daithi Flannery
put up.
00:51:14
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:51:17
Daithi Flannery
Tell us about that Satchel case.
00:51:17
Mike
and
00:51:18
Daithi Flannery
you that's it That's going on. or Actually, is that going on right now? Because we probably shouldn't talk about it if it is.
00:51:24
Mike
No, he he's he's being sentenced. He'll be sentenced soon, yeah, yeah.
00:51:27
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:51:29
Mike
um That's done, done and dusted, really. But yeah, so I didn't... i don't I didn't really, I've been busy in the high courts, in the forecourts, but I was there at the opening of that particular trial.
00:52:05
Mike
while I was sitting behind him, kind of, he was, say, if you're looking at a clock, he was at two o'clock, you know, or if you're if you're driving a car like you stole it, was at two he was at two o'clock, and beyond him were all the media, and of course they were studying him, like, you know, like, you know, writing down, taking notes, and sure, was kind of saying, you know,
00:52:30
Mike
and sure i was kind of saying you there I am. sort Normally you're looking at somebody and there's nothing behind it, but I was there studying from the ah the other side, if you know what mean, so it's kind of funny.
00:52:44
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:52:45
Mike
I just found it very, very funny, but it but was interesting drawing, at the same
00:52:51
Daithi Flannery
there was when Ghislaine Maxwell was on trial at one stage there was a few court sketch artists in there and at one stage she turned around with a pen and paper and she started to sketch one of the sketch artists And then another one of the sketch artists went to the side and started to sketch that scene of the sketch artist sketching Gislaine and then Gislaine sketching the sketch artist.
00:53:13
Mike
Yes.
00:53:16
Daithi Flannery
to And yeah, it becomes a kind of unending mirrors.
00:53:18
Mike
That's lovely. Yeah.
00:53:20
Daithi Flannery
But did anything like that ever happen to you? as in did Did you ever feel that ah when you were sketching somebody that they you were making them feel a certain way?
00:53:33
Daithi Flannery
You know,
00:53:35
Mike
ah Yeah, plenty of times. and I've loads stories like things like that happening. Like the very first was, there was a brothel keeper of Asian origin. So i was drawing her and she she was, you know, it was a circuit court hearing in Dublin actually.
00:53:55
Mike
And she was curious what I was drawing. So she left the dock during a break and she sat home beside me and she was looking at my work. And I thought that was very interesting.
00:54:07
Mike
And then there was, there was, there What you describe now is very, very dramatic altogether, but when I was on the stand, I drew myself afterwards um on the stand with the senior counsel crosses cross cross-examining me.
00:54:30
Mike
Did I ever... Oh, yeah, I remember ah guy in trial for murder, actually, over a drug deal. He was on bail and he was going through my work outside the court. were chatting.
00:54:44
Mike
And again, minutes later, he was put away for life. Or just convicted, sorry. And it's kind of interesting. It's funny you you come face to face with people in situations like that. And they're very very but they're very, very positive about the art as well. They love it.
00:55:06
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:06
Mike
you know And if you give them bit of, she's not lovely.
00:55:09
Mike
it it's it's it's nice for them although I remember going in there was three guys sitting in the dock um and there was it was ah for a rape too two of them were on trial rape now there was and there's a translator among them and I don't think I didn't know who the translator was and he kind of felt that I didn't know who the translator was So three guys going like this, blocking their faces.
00:55:09
Daithi Flannery
yeah
00:55:42
Mike
The guy middle happened to be the translator. um But he wasn't taking any chances, you know.
00:55:51
Mike
I thought that was very funny, you know.
00:55:53
Daithi Flannery
So you had four people blocking their faces.
00:55:53
Mike
ah But I knew that. i knew what was going on, you know.
00:55:56
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
00:55:56
Mike
And I just continued trying, yeah.
00:56:00
Daithi Flannery
and What did you draw? Did you draw their hands across their faces then?
00:56:02
Mike
I did, yeah. I did, yeah. But it's very it's very funny, though. I've learned, you know, yeah I'm sure, you know, if somebody blocks their eyes, um things things in the face match up, you know.
00:56:16
Mike
You're going have long years with raw nose, you know.
00:56:16
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:56:18
Mike
Everything kind of matches. So you can imagine things. And if you get a good look at them, you'll make up the image, you know, so, yeah.
00:56:24
Daithi Flannery
is And would you be able to get, um how long would you need to to look at somebody to be able to draw their face? Would you get it at a glance?
00:56:32
Mike
It depends.
00:56:33
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:56:34
Mike
ah It depends on the face, you know, some like your face is grand, you know, other people like we're very fair and don't do the sea.
00:56:36
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:56:43
Mike
I work with lines, you know, so if the lines aren't there, but a lot of people who who not so Some people are very pale or waxy. So you're not pale or actually our palette kind of have a pattern that's not defined Our are difficult, you know, so
00:56:54
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:57:03
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
00:57:03
Mike
But anybody with proper Celtic lines like you and me are grand. They take a few minutes easily. There's no problem with them.
00:57:13
Daithi Flannery
that's death that's it
00:57:13
Mike
But other people would take a lifetime. ah And you might get them right in the end. yeah know
00:57:21
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, it's such an Irish way to describe it too.
00:57:21
Mike
yeah
00:57:24
Daithi Flannery
Ad o'grand, o'grand.
00:57:26
Mike
that's not
00:57:28
Daithi Flannery
is there a Is there a place you like to sit in the court? is there do you try and get there early to get a certain place? I know you like to be up in the witness stand, but you get the cantaloupe you up there all the time.
00:57:38
Mike
that
00:57:40
Daithi Flannery
but So is there a spot you sit
00:57:42
Mike
Yeah, so so in Central Criminal Court, I'd often sit beside the journalists. But now, for the last, since I suppose as November, i the prime position for me, the carpet box in the corporate, she wouldn't know, the carpet boxes is behind the accused.
00:58:09
Daithi Flannery
behind.
00:58:09
Mike
Find the accused. Yeah. So I get the accused at two o'clock and I get, you know, senior counsel and that on the other 10 to 10, 10 to two, let's say on the 10, I'll get the, um, the judges. I get the view.
00:58:24
Mike
You know, that's my recent one. And the judges are just so good like that. You know, they just love me.
00:58:29
Daithi Flannery
OK. And and can can anybody do this?
00:58:30
Mike
Yeah.
00:58:34
Daithi Flannery
Or do you need a special press card? Or you need a special pass?
00:58:38
Mike
Yeah. have press card.
00:58:39
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, so so you do need a special pass to do this.
00:58:40
Mike
i ah probably use it as I use it as a flag of convenience, you know. so it allows me it allows me access to all trials.
00:58:52
Daithi Flannery
Okay, that's... that
00:58:53
Mike
Yeah, yeah. I'm very lucky to believe me.
00:58:56
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, yeah.
00:58:58
Mike
um Yeah.
00:59:00
Daithi Flannery
You've been in some and some really some trials that, for me, i don't know if I'd be able to sit through them. And the one that comes to mind is the Aisling Murphy murder trial. um That seems like a hard thing to sit through.
00:59:20
Daithi Flannery
What was that like for you to endure that?
00:59:23
Mike
Yeah, that was very, so obviously everybody knows about that. It was a very sad trial, terrible story. But some remember,
00:59:36
Mike
like, as I say, I don't have any um stake or position, and i don't doesn't that doesn't matter to me. you know, which way a trial goes is of no consequence. It's the image that's important to me.
00:59:51
Mike
But I remember being in there when a guard ah showed the ah GA, George, who belonged to the victim.
01:00:03
Mike
And, you know, I was thinking, you know, I mean, i I have a daughter, like, who's around Ashton's age, you know, and...
01:00:15
Mike
who's very similar kind of life I suppose you know and that just when when that jersey was showing off I says like I'm out of here now you know I don't I don't need to see this or I don't need to be here you know it was just too much you know and just got up and left but the guards can't do that the lawyers can't do that you know the jury can't do that the judge can't do it no nobody can do that you know but I
01:00:30
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:00:43
Mike
families, of course, if they want to, you know, but mean, I'm working there, but I can leave when I want to and all like that, you know, so I was i felt fault that I was lucky to be to that, but other people aren't able to do that, you know, leave, you know, so um that just, that was probably, plus when Brendan Gretchen was describing the shooting of Detective Gary Adrian Donoghue,
01:00:57
Daithi Flannery
and Do you? Yeah, absolutely.
01:01:11
Mike
um
01:01:12
Daithi Flannery
Yes.
01:01:12
Mike
That was very, very emotional. And i I had a grandfather who was a guard and his name is read out in the commemoration every year in Dublin Castle, and he died tragically.
01:01:25
Mike
And I suppose that when a guard is shot or hurt, or especially shot and murdered, um it affects me and I tot pay particular interest to to the trial.
01:01:38
Mike
But when he was describing that, it was kind of very, it was I stayed for it, but it kind of gutted me, you know. i can't imagine what it was like for the families in both cases, you know.
01:01:49
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, no, something like that I think would would would impact me as well. And I wonder, does your art give you way to kind of expel the demons that you might take in and be able to leave it on the paper and and and not take it home with you as such?
01:02:02
Mike
yeah
01:02:08
Mike
Yeah, well, I like i do it voluntarily, you know. What I do for my job is put bread on the table.
01:02:13
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:02:14
Mike
I'm 100% committed. um but the But whatever it is about art and physically expressing something, it's like, you know, I suppose maybe in sport as well and in any physical expression, there's therapeutic side to it, you know.
01:02:30
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:02:31
Mike
and But you're you're you're from Galway and I'm from Kerry sure, When I'm working in Dublin five during the week, I always look forward to coming down to Kerry.
01:02:42
Mike
and But I love my work so much, though, when I'm in Kerry, I'm just dying to get back up again.
01:02:48
Mike
but When I get on the trail, it's like jumping on a big elastic band, you
01:02:48
Daithi Flannery
ah
01:02:53
Daithi Flannery
and ah Okay, talking about Kerry and and and Dublin without going into the All-Ireland, we'll talk about...
01:02:56
Mike
know?
01:03:01
Daithi Flannery
that
01:03:01
Mike
I have no interest until the semi-final, like every other time.
01:03:06
Daithi Flannery
yeah You have a have had quite a ah few drug seizures and the Sinaloa cartel, the the ah very major Colombian, is Mexican, cartel,
01:03:06
Mike
oh Yeah.
01:03:15
Mike
I know.
01:03:19
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. yeah
01:03:23
Daithi Flannery
has been involved in methamphetamines, I believe, down in Kerry. have you Were you in the court for them, drawing those sketches?
01:03:28
Mike
Yeah. I was, yeah, from the beginning. And I was just very disappointed by the whole thing. That's my reaction to the whole thing. I'm disappointed for, especially for Chile, because Chile is, Chile is great, and Kerry like. I'm just disappointed that something that would happen.
01:03:50
Mike
And I often wonder how these things happen.
01:03:51
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:03:56
Mike
I honestly don't know. It's beyond me. I don't understand the humans at all, really. You know, I like to try to, but I was coming in the car from Dingle this morning and was saying,
01:04:02
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:04:07
Mike
understand human beings as well.
01:04:08
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:04:09
Mike
I don't understand what motivates
01:04:14
Mike
them to put it. I followed that trial and it's not fully you know resolved yet because there's more or cases going on.
01:04:21
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:04:23
Mike
you you
01:04:24
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:04:25
Mike
But it's just anything criminal that happens in in Kerry is just very disappointing for me because I think we have it all in lots of ways.
01:04:25
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:04:36
Daithi Flannery
Kerry is beautiful. And I think the whole country, when they heard um whole country when they heard that ah the Sinaloa cartel was involved in drugs in Ireland, we were like, oh, what part of Dublin?
01:04:51
Daithi Flannery
And then we heard Kerry and it was like, no way.
01:04:51
Mike
Yeah.
01:04:55
Mike
Yeah, I know. It's just very disappointing. Because we have, like, we have, like, like many country places now, like, You know, we can kind of complain about government and neglect, but we've a natural... We've natural... We're very and naturally and endowed with the most beautiful places in in Ireland, like, you know.
01:05:21
Mike
And, like, the gallery's much the same. Almost the same. But, like, we're very lucky. And, you know, people...
01:05:28
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:05:29
Mike
of They're kind of... I don't know if you've sensed this, but I could be wrong. But there's a kind of frontier mentality down in Kerry. Like, there's a lot of... Like, somebody mentioned me this morning, of each other like, we used to have private... We have pirate radio stations down in Kerry in the 80s that were magnificent.
01:05:50
Mike
Now there are pirate radio stations. That is... that But Trillie and Kerry has that kind of... They're people who take initiative, you know. i
01:06:00
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:06:00
Mike
I really admire that. And I draw from that as well, you know.
01:06:04
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:06:04
Mike
know There are people like who come up with new ideas and go for it. And it's the same kind of stuff that's played out in football field in in Galway and Kerry and up along the West Coast.
01:06:14
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:06:16
Mike
you know Especially football.
01:06:17
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. ah i do i do I did feel that down in Kerry. I was down there a couple of years ago for a while. And I did feel that... kind of mentality down there um they they get after it and they don't care too much about what people think kind of mentality just just and I find that out in Connemara as well ah there's a very kind kindliness that comes with it as well like you know it it's
01:06:35
Mike
Yeah, yeah.
01:06:39
Mike
Yeah, isn't it?
01:06:44
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.
01:06:46
Daithi Flannery
sir yeah another third
01:06:48
Mike
And there's a kind of forgiveness as well, you know.
01:06:50
Daithi Flannery
yes yes because yeah everybody's trying so it's okay if some people fail like it's bound to happen
01:06:51
Mike
There is a forgiveness. And... Here is it, exactly, yeah. And it's in the language as well, you know.
01:06:59
Daithi Flannery
Ah, yes.
01:07:00
Mike
And, you know, the kind of... I suppose the way people speak is far more fluid and less precise than the East Coast.
01:07:12
Mike
But then a lot of the East Coast people are drawn to the likes of Kerry and Galway. I'm just back from Dingle now this morning, which is full of Dublin people.
01:07:21
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:07:22
Mike
And that's great.
01:07:22
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Yeah.
01:07:25
Mike
And i i last night I was walking out to Vintry, or out, sorry, the pier in Dingle. And i heard a group of Dublin people in front of me saying, and ah up the mountain up mountain there, is that electricity going up there? You know, and I saying,
01:07:46
Mike
was, yeah, yeah, I was kind of, yeah.
01:07:48
Daithi Flannery
ah yeah
01:07:51
Daithi Flannery
and that the There's normally a few lies around the place to tell people like that who are asking silly questions.
01:07:55
Mike
Yeah.
01:07:57
Daithi Flannery
Absolutely.
01:07:57
Mike
Yeah. but And that's only the dubs now, not the Americans. ah
01:08:05
Daithi Flannery
absolutely
01:08:06
Mike
which may, and then top on top of that then I was, i not so long ago was up in Dublin walking down Sydney Avenue, Sydney Avenue, or Parade Avenue going down into, down into, Sandy Mone Strand.
01:08:21
Mike
And the person was with saying, God isn't it a lovely year, you know, and I said, I said, I summoned all the sympathy I had, you know, you could see on one side, you could see Poolbeg, the two towering infernosings,
01:08:34
Mike
right down to, I suppose, Brayhead or whatever. And I said, it is, it is beautiful. It is beautiful. You know, thinking back in character, she's, sure, there's no comparison in the world.
01:08:50
Mike
We'll give her a bit of scraps of praise.
01:08:53
Daithi Flannery
what actually you need that you need that it's just too cold to be anything else
01:08:53
Mike
I'm very arrogant. I suppose we have arrogance on best course, I'll do it. Yes. This is it. yeah yeah is
01:09:04
Daithi Flannery
do you ever do you ever travel or do you ever think about traveling to to other countries when you hear of big court cases on do you ever think of going over there to to be a court artist
01:09:14
Mike
it It occurred to me actually last week because I was in Malta.
01:09:18
Mike
There's a big trial on there of a journalist who was killed, murdered by car bomb.
01:09:18
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:09:18
Daithi Flannery
Okay. Yeah.
01:09:27
Mike
And she was a poor, she was an investigative journalist. Her name was Daphne, I can't remember her name. But a friend of mine from who works in Kerry from Malta said you should go and do the dry.
01:09:38
Mike
I didn't start, was too tired. It was only a holiday, really, you know.
01:09:40
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:09:42
Mike
it has occurred to me, yeah. um I have friends in America like the Supreme Court artist who's just retired said he should come over and draw and I don't know how that works over there plus Jane Rosenberg you mentioned her actually through the Giseline whatever her name is lady think she was one of the artists involved and I'm all i connected with all these people and Margaret Heming Small then in Boston so there's a few of us that kind of
01:10:00
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:10:11
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:10:13
Mike
We do a little, there's a little group of us, yeah. We chat.
01:10:17
Daithi Flannery
All right. So you don't do go and do guest sets in other people's courts.
01:10:20
Mike
Yeah.
01:10:21
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:10:24
Daithi Flannery
her
01:10:24
Mike
Yeah. I, I, yeah, no, I'd love to, but I might sometime actually. Yeah. Great, great fun. Yeah. But I like, I just so love what I'm doing here.
01:10:35
Mike
It's just great.
01:10:35
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:10:37
Mike
Miss it.
01:10:38
Daithi Flannery
You mentioned that that the the courts, you often see them as like a ah movie set or set of a TV show. And I think one of the most famous courtroom dramas has to be A Few Good Men with that yeah were Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise.
01:10:50
Mike
A few good men.
01:10:53
Mike
Oh, yeah.
01:10:53
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:10:54
Mike
yeah yeah You can handle the truth. no
01:10:57
Daithi Flannery
And the you can't handle the truth moment. I mean, everybody knows that line. Everybody knows that scene. And and that was the moment that Jack Nicholson bro and broke and that broke up in the whole case.
01:11:03
Mike
yeah
01:11:08
Daithi Flannery
And then he, did you order the code red? You're goddamn right I ordered the code red. do Did you ever see a moment like that in court where for one witness or or one line of questioning or even one answer blew the whole thing wide open?
01:11:26
Mike
I did.
01:11:27
Daithi Flannery
Oh, please tell.
01:11:28
Mike
ah The Conor McGregor case.
01:11:31
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:11:32
Mike
When he lost it on the stand.
01:11:36
Daithi Flannery
Oh, please tell us about that.
01:11:38
Mike
Yeah, so I was watching him and he he lost it and I think he was needled by the senior counsel defending the complainant.
01:11:52
Mike
And apparently, apparently while assaulting her, he put her in a headlock.
01:11:59
Mike
And Mr. Gordon, who was senior counsel, said, isn't isn't that what you were doing? You were telling her this was what it felt like to be in the cage. when you're effective basically when you're beaten by Kahlil
01:12:15
Mike
and this didn't go down well Mr. McGregor and he lost it and i I remember what he said but I wouldn't repeat what he said but he lost it and I think that was that that was that detonation let's say i' i imagine I don't know but I imagine in the eyes of the jury wasn't um didn't go down too well, you know.
01:12:40
Daithi Flannery
Hmm, let's see.
01:12:41
Mike
If you lose it on the stand, know.
01:12:43
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, the the veil dropped.
Unforgettable Courtroom Moments
01:12:45
Mike
Yeah. um The veil dropped, yeah, yeah.
01:12:49
Daithi Flannery
There was, there was a... Hmm.
01:12:50
Mike
I was, I was, I liked it, but these people are very skilled, you know, the senior council are very skilled to, her to probe and to, you know, as a, you know, to needle people.
01:12:54
Daithi Flannery
Hmm.
01:13:02
Mike
They're well able to, you know, they're almost like your mother pressing the wrong button. She's well able to, she's always well able to do that, the other, know, so.
01:13:12
Daithi Flannery
yeah You don't know you're in the shit until you're literally up to your waist in it.
01:13:14
Mike
yeah
01:13:16
Daithi Flannery
And then all of a sudden it's like, how did I get here?
01:13:16
Mike
yeah ah This is it.
01:13:21
Daithi Flannery
ah Just a sidebar question, I guess. there was There was pictures of Nikita Hand shown in the court. And I've only ever seen descriptions of them. And I think it was a medic who described them as as one of the worst she's ever seen.
01:13:37
Daithi Flannery
Do you remember those pictures? Were they bad? that
01:13:42
Mike
um no I didn't see the pictures I didn't ah you know often I don't even often ah when if there's a monitor going like for example Gerry Adams last case there was ah which he won for defamation against BBC in the last few days I was yeah yeah no it was on Dublin Dublin High Court yeah yeah so he he um
01:13:59
Daithi Flannery
And were you in the court for that? That was so was in Belfast, was it?
01:14:05
Daithi Flannery
Oh, okay, sorry, I thought that was in Belfast. Oh, very good.
01:14:12
Mike
came down off the stand and he'd noticed it. So I said, sit down there. So I got up and he sat down my chair and looked at some monitor, a ten TV monitor where there was some film being shown, you know, I suppose spotlight program or whatever it was.
01:14:31
Mike
But everybody's looking that way. And I was looking this way. Because don't know, I'm interested in what's what's happening. I'm not interested in what's happening on the screen.
01:14:39
Daithi Flannery
I get you.
01:14:39
Mike
But it's,
01:14:40
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:14:40
Mike
These people, and there was Gerry Adams' head. Dye was literally like there.
01:14:47
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:14:47
Mike
Right? That close. And little bit close for comfort, let's put like that. And so I looked at looked around at me and I says, what am I here for?
01:15:01
Mike
So I I draw him. I was drawing him. So I got my thing, I was drawing him. His head was right there and there I was drawing him.
01:15:08
Mike
And I have that picture. um But that that was a very special one to me.
01:15:14
Daithi Flannery
that That sounds special.
01:15:15
Mike
so
01:15:15
Daithi Flannery
So he was he was only ah foot away from you, basically.
01:15:18
Mike
He was only, he was right there. I'd say he was the closest muse I ever had.
01:15:25
Mike
And then just to everybody else in office.
01:15:27
Daithi Flannery
I imagine.
01:15:27
Mike
But I mean, everybody's head is directed to what's up there. I've no interest in those, ever.
01:15:33
Mike
No interest. In fact, I've no interest in hearing And even this morning there something on the radio about some case. I turned off noticed.
01:15:33
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:15:44
Mike
It's only all secondhand. That's all secondhand reportage.
01:15:44
Daithi Flannery
So you.
01:15:48
Daithi Flannery
OK.
01:15:49
Mike
This is firsthand. I'm involved in firsthand. Primary source.
01:15:56
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:15:57
Mike
his Historical documentation. That's way I look at it.
01:16:00
Daithi Flannery
OK. Yeah, yeah, that's.
01:16:02
Mike
Anything else, some radios or TV or dramas, they're all secondhand.
01:16:06
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, no, and and it's interesting the way you paint the picture that you're in the court and everybody is entranced at whatever evidence or whatever has been shown at the top of the court.
01:16:18
Daithi Flannery
But you're there to look at the people who are entranced. You are there to look at the scene, not the actual evidence and not the.
01:16:25
Mike
yeah that's that's true yeah but I do often come out though in a trance myself when I come out of the court it takes me a while to get back to because I'm so absorbed with visual part of it so like when I go into a gallery like I was and at ah at a pre-raphic what's that some exhibition there very recently in London and I came out like in a daze because visually just too much for me you know
01:16:28
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:16:32
Daithi Flannery
OK.
01:16:38
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:16:55
Mike
and it takes a while to get get back into.
01:16:55
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:16:57
Mike
So I do come out, because it's like coming off off a field after a match. Like you put left everything and on the field, is that's kind of new expression, I think, you know. And you just, it takes time to gather yourself, you know.
01:17:10
Daithi Flannery
if you
01:17:10
Mike
So I do, I know that. I'm aware of the the impact it has on me, you know, like visually, or I suppose all the information, then I come out, takes a while to, but that's fine.
01:17:20
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:17:24
Mike
We'll be able to, deal with that I think.
01:17:26
Daithi Flannery
And do you have to go back down to Kerrydon to recenter yourself after?
01:17:29
Mike
yeah like I think my battery is very low at the moment.
01:17:34
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:17:35
Mike
Is that 3? I'll just plug it in, is that right?
01:17:38
Daithi Flannery
That's of course, yeah, that's fine.
01:17:39
Mike
How can I just i just get the thing? It's really great.
01:17:41
Daithi Flannery
So, is is there any is there any trial that you've said to yourself, i will never i will never forget this. I will never forget what happened here.
01:17:53
Daithi Flannery
That this will stick with me for the rest of my life.
01:18:02
Mike
Funny thing is now that I suppose the McGregor trial.
01:18:09
Mike
Well, obviously, the one before that, day the the Dermot Ross of Fieden trial, where i was on the stand, that will always, that will always remember that.
01:18:23
Mike
That went on for an extended period. And in the meantime, the Conor McGregor trial happened. And I'll never forget that as well. And.
01:18:36
Mike
I think the Gerry Adams trial, I won't ever forget that. Ever, because he, you know, he i think that he probably be it's arguable, it's probably the most significant political figure in Ireland in the last 50 years.
01:18:59
Mike
you know, you know, whether people have people have views, you know, but that's probably fact.
01:18:59
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:19:07
Mike
And then the most recent one that I'm involved in where I'm working at the moment is the Magnair trial over over land and in those Kilkenny or Tipperary wherever that will stand my mind because
01:19:30
Mike
I had ah conflicting information that he would have I was away on holidays in Malta for a week or so and missed the opening of the the trial and he was giving evidence and it isn't every day you'd see a billionaire giving evidence in the Irish courts you know so I kind of felt I probably missed this now you know but I got information from multiple sources, conflicting information from multiple sources, saying that he would appear and he wouldn't appear. And sure, I got up at 10 past four on Friday morning in Kerry and got the train up.
01:20:10
Mike
And sure enough, he appeared. I was delighted. And then, you know, immediately after, I know this feels like to come down off the stand, you're in a daze and you're vulnerable. So I says, Mr. Mac, any chance you could sign there?
01:20:23
Mike
And he signed it. So he quadrupled the value of at least.
01:20:28
Daithi Flannery
ha
01:20:30
Mike
And yeah, so the Senior Council signed it. I don't often, Jerry Adams signed my work as well, which is great, you know. And all these things are, are part of the historical record, you know.
01:20:43
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:20:43
Mike
I actually have outside of a school report signed by Pajri Piers, original, you know, so. I don't collect these things, but it's...
01:20:50
Daithi Flannery
It seems you do. I'm sorry. it seems yeah
01:20:52
Mike
No, I don't. But it might be, you know, it's good to have their signature as well, you know.
01:20:57
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Oh, it's excellent. It's lovely.
01:21:00
Mike
It always kind of, all these things, like I'm i'm i'm a businessman, and anything that adds value to my work is of interest to me.
01:21:09
Daithi Flannery
did that did Did Jerry Adams have that that aura that we were talking about earlier, like like the monk?
01:21:18
Mike
Um, he, well, having background information on him, you know, like everybody, ah you know, our age, especially maybe not younger people, but sir he he, I suppose you project an aura on him as well, you know, if that's, if that's even, if that even makes sense.
01:21:35
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, absolutely. no absolutely.
01:21:38
Mike
But he was very, very ordinary and very kind to me and in the sense that I can talk to anybody. There's nobody telling me, there's nobody going to fire me for talking to anybody.
01:21:51
Mike
I've spoken to McGregor and I've spoken to the gentleman yesterday in the witness stand. I've spoken to, there was a huge aviation trial involving billions of euros of aircraft trapped in Moscow or in Russia.
01:22:06
Mike
And I was talking to these like, major, ah these acclaimed international, never in the media because there was other things going on in the media.
01:22:17
Mike
There's only certain amount of pages in in newspaper. But these are huge international, these are huge stories and huge financial stories. and legal stories all mixed up with insurance and stuff.
01:22:29
Mike
And there are experts on international Russian relations that you might see sometimes under the likes of CNN. And was chatting to these people, but nobody else could speak to them because they're all, you know, lawyers.
01:22:40
Mike
There was no public.
01:22:40
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:22:40
Mike
There was only non-lawyer.
01:22:41
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:22:43
Mike
It was me. And I could chat to these others. I could chat and they were talking to me they ended up buying my work, emailing me. And like, Imagine how privileged that is. I could speak to, to say, a professor from you you see from University College London on what he thinks of Putin. and make These people have met these people, you know.
01:23:07
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:23:08
Mike
And the lawyers couldn't because they can't, you know, talk to witnesses.
01:23:13
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, they have skin in the game.
01:23:14
Mike
bra Yeah, they have skinned the again.
01:23:18
Mike
kind of. Wasn't it?
01:23:18
Daithi Flannery
what would stick in your head.
01:23:19
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Yeah.
01:23:20
Mike
Yeah. So that would stick in my head, you know.
01:23:22
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:23:23
Mike
And then the... like it's It's like this year, for some reason, these extraordinary trials have happened in the high courts, in the criminal in the high courts that are... And about Gerry Adams then, had he got that aura, his he he seems to me to be impenetrable.
01:23:44
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:23:45
Mike
It's hard to... But that's probably part, that's probably a weapon he has, you know, or ah or a code of mail.
01:23:50
Daithi Flannery
Absolutely. That's yeah.
01:23:53
Mike
And that stands to him, you know, so.
01:23:55
Daithi Flannery
It's been conditioned that way, i guess, by ah
01:23:57
Mike
Yeah.
01:23:58
Daithi Flannery
Do you, um,
01:23:58
Mike
But, yeah.
01:24:01
Daithi Flannery
Do you ever feel like you're recording a moment in history, particularly at them trials where where there's no other journalists there or the press aren't covering it?
Recognition and Appreciation
01:24:11
Daithi Flannery
Do you think, oh my God, I'm the one recording this moment in history here?
01:24:17
Mike
I do die, ah but um I was at the opening of my exhibition, thankfully, and
01:24:31
Mike
ah Judge Tara Burns, who presided at the reg Regency trial, opened it. um And um she said that that
01:24:46
Mike
Mike's work is the only archive visual archive we have of court hearings, you know, and she was effusive in her praise, which is good for me. You know, it made me feel good.
01:25:01
Mike
And it was very kind of her and so on.
Commercial Purpose of Court Drawings
01:25:03
Mike
But I often think, you know, when I'm drawing them, for example, they they're actually, they're not, they go don't go into any state record. You know, they're, for me, they're commercial,
01:25:16
Mike
creations they're for sale so barristers will come along and buy them eventually if they don't buy them on the day you know so you know they're not they're not curated afterwards and put away and into some kind of repository
01:25:36
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:25:37
Mike
presume. And, you know, even this year I've been looking at my, like I've done over 400 drawings since October and a lot of them, you know, some of them are are not finished and so on.
01:25:48
Mike
Can I leave them? They're a little bit all over the place, let's put it like that. But they need to be kind of archived.
01:25:55
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:25:56
Mike
ah If the judge only knew. God.
01:26:01
Mike
But like having said that though, if they are, you know, like there's a stenographer that's employed by the courts. So all the words are recorded. But the images aren't.
01:26:13
Mike
But then again, if they ever advertised and said, look, we want to employ I wouldn't work for the state at all.
Debate on Employing Court Artists
01:26:19
Mike
I wouldn't be paid enough.
01:26:20
Daithi Flannery
you that wouldn't that wouldn't work for you no that wouldn't work for you you'd feel like you'd taken a side then
01:26:22
Mike
That wouldn't work. yeah
01:26:27
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:26:28
Mike
But there is, you know, it would be very innovative if the courts ever did decide to have a you know have a higher court. I think it would like, you know, be no bad idea.
01:26:39
Daithi Flannery
No, I think it could be a good idea.
01:26:40
Mike
Yeah.
01:26:40
Daithi Flannery
I think it could be a good idea as well.
01:26:40
Mike
Yeah.
01:26:42
Mike
Not being biased around you, as ever. Yeah, so...
01:26:42
Daithi Flannery
But um no, not being biased.
Impactful Irish Court Cases
01:26:45
Daithi Flannery
Wink, wink.
01:26:45
Mike
ah
01:26:47
Daithi Flannery
but
01:26:48
Mike
ah yes
01:26:50
Daithi Flannery
that Okay, from your perspective, which Irish court cases, since you began your work in 2010, which Irish court cases have had the most profound impact on public consciousness?
01:26:59
Mike
yeah
01:27:05
Mike
oh
01:27:09
Mike
That's a very interesting
01:27:11
Mike
one. On public consciousness.
01:27:15
Mike
I think probably... i think, like, there are two competing ones. The Regency one obviously was very, very big. But I think that the McGregor trial was...
01:27:33
Mike
slightly polarizing, but it definitely did impact on public consciousness. And, you know, you had very, very successful person and in the respondent and in McGregor.
01:27:51
Mike
And you had a young lady who was obviously in a very vulnerable position. I think that was clash of two different let's say, types.
01:28:06
Mike
And then also, I think that the probably underestimated is the first trial we mentioned there, the Rossi-Felan and the de day portrait people from Tala.
01:28:22
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, comments.
01:28:23
Mike
Yeah, the Conlon family. Yeah, the Conlon people. And I think that is... that is I think it could be more profound than people would think. you
01:28:35
Daithi Flannery
I think so too.
01:28:36
Mike
um You had a clash of cultures.
01:28:36
Daithi Flannery
I think.
01:28:37
Mike
You had a clash class of classes. think you know I think you mentioned that.
01:28:41
Daithi Flannery
Mm hmm.
01:28:44
Mike
um And you also had rural versus urban kind of thing. And you had a killing, um an alleged murder, which wasn't deemed murder at all.
01:28:59
Mike
which wasn't deemed more at all and by the jury and he he's as innocent as the day before you know he he got involved in this you know so um in the eyes of the law and i would worry about the impact that has on people's confidence in justice system you know
01:29:16
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
Public Confidence in Justice System
01:29:22
Daithi Flannery
I, get I, yeah, I'm, I, I'm in that.
01:29:24
Mike
you know and i think you know in the end
01:29:28
Mike
in the end, it's the people inside in the court, it's all the lawyers and the judges and so on, juries that they make huge, absolutely huge decisions, you know, and because, cool because courts are administered in public, it's the public has, you know, there their eyes and ears on these things as well.
01:29:51
Daithi Flannery
okay yeah great thanks I think that's a that's a good answer and I yeah I think I definitely put the Rosser-Feelan case in there for those same reasons I think it has a it says a lot about where Ireland is now when basically a poor man goes hunting on a rich man's land and ends up with a bullet in the back of his head and
01:29:51
Mike
Yeah.
01:29:54
Mike
I think
01:30:04
Mike
yeah yeah
01:30:20
Mike
yeah
01:30:20
Daithi Flannery
But yeah, that's all I'll say about that. yeah
01:30:23
Mike
Yeah, yeah, yeah
01:30:24
Daithi Flannery
um Okay, Mike, we had a magic wand.
01:30:28
Mike
yeah.
01:30:28
Daithi Flannery
And if you could have any one person in history or alive today to sit for you, who would it be?
01:30:36
Mike
Yeah. My God, nobody's ever asked me that
01:30:41
Mike
That's very interesting.
01:30:43
Mike
um
01:30:48
Mike
I'd say, any like, can I dodge that question and say that in everybody's face there's a perfection and beauty and everybody's face is a kind of a document describing the past.
01:30:53
Daithi Flannery
You can, of course. You can. OK.
01:30:58
Daithi Flannery
okay
01:31:07
Mike
It even brings their provenance, you know, going way back in history. it's a it's like um its it's It's a record as they are, their faces, a record of where they came from, there who they're from.
01:31:26
Mike
you know, they were cry you could see some people say their uncles and mothers and so on. They're probably going way back. That particular visage they have is probably ancient, you know.
01:31:38
Mike
And this what you're seeing as a moment in time But there's also kind of, you know, you can see in people's faces like hope and future and you can see their grandchildren that they may have so at some stage, you know.
Advice for Aspiring Court Artists
01:31:52
Mike
So it's real, it's a real crossroads of of time, past, time, present, time, future. So anybody's face, I just love it so much, you know.
01:32:03
Daithi Flannery
that that that's that's that's the most beautiful uh avoidance of a question i've ever had mike thanks very much thanks very much for not for not being straightforward about that one and just saying jesus sir caesar or somebody that was a fantastic answer um
01:32:07
Mike
What's up? No! oh but
01:32:16
Mike
oh ah Now that you ask.
01:32:22
Daithi Flannery
um okay would you have any advice for an aspiring court artist
01:32:24
Mike
Yeah.
01:32:29
Mike
Yeah. um An aspiring port court artist. Practice and practice. and also struggle because no good art can come out of the easy life and the happy life and the privileged life and the kind of life, the kind of the kept life.
01:32:58
Mike
So there has to be struggle. That's why I think something like AI will never be have real art because the artist brings expresses themselves and their struggles and their coping through their art.
01:33:13
Mike
So the aspiring artists, I don't wish them any bad times,
01:33:14
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
Personal Struggles and Artistic Motivation
01:33:18
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:33:19
Mike
but you can't create art without having had struggle.
01:33:22
Mike
And I've i've had struggle health wise, and I've been nearly killed a few times and these or are nearly died a few times. And um these inform my art.
01:33:35
Mike
And every day I go in, It's like it's it's it's hard to believe, you know, but it's it's like a rebirth every day. i live every day like a life, you know, and, you know, people think of life as an infinite or as a big, long string, big, long set of intervals going in a straight line.
01:33:59
Mike
But I like think of it as as vertical, you know, so each day is like a lifetime to me. And that's the way I sense like I had I've had chemo in my time.
01:34:11
Mike
That's only one part one one episode. And, you know, I've seen people die and like everybody else, probably. And I've seen times past and I was over in a grave there this morning and I saw young people who died, you know, and I'm really conscious of the whole lucky I am to be alive, actually doing what I love doing.
01:34:34
Mike
And you know, being restless in my sleep to go in and show up and do what I absolutely love doing, you know. And um so without having experienced what I've experienced, like there's no way I'd have the motivation and like just desire to create something artistically, you know, I just have like, I'm so hungry, you know, for for doing this.
01:35:01
Mike
And
01:35:04
Mike
So having having had the struggle, say, and financially, had nothing. I remember being on the dole downtown in Trillier. And you know what?
01:35:17
Mike
I had nothing. like And I remember going into the Dominican church across the road for heat while the you know the queue would probably diminish a small bit across the road. Then I'd go and get my dole.
01:35:28
Mike
And I was putting my hands on the heater filled heaters in the church and then i'd look out the door and see that the people had you know gone in a bit more so i'd go and join the queue and you know in one way that was struggling and i remember cycling home my bike and smelling like smelling the the dinner has been cooked you know and i didn't have the food and like i so valuable like now i can practically eat what I want and I'm not hungry and I'm i'm my art satis it sates me is that the word you know it gives me enough and that makes me feel so good and so alive and so happy um but on the other hand all that struggle you have to have inspiration and on the other hand you know I had two episodes my life which were
01:36:06
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
Connection to Iconic Artworks
01:36:21
Mike
Absolutely outstanding. And one was, my uncle was, my granduncle was prefect of the Vatican Library for years. And he allowed me into the Sistine Chapel on my own when I was about 20.
01:36:29
Daithi Flannery
wow
01:36:35
Mike
And there was nobody in there. But way up high in the scaffold, there was a fellow restoring. And so I walked around and then I lay down.
01:36:48
Mike
And I looked up at the Sistine Chapel, all of Michael Andrews' works. And said, how privileged am I? It was like looking into the the eternal or the abyss or the the the divine.
01:37:03
Mike
you know, that was... I take that with me every day. like could And on top of that, and and I happened to be in Abu Dhabi in 2019, around this time year, May 5th or May 3rd, and there on the wall in front of me was La Belfronie, which is one of about 20 portraits, 20 artworks, paintings that Leonardo did.
01:37:34
Mike
There was, on my own, 500 years to the day that he died.
01:37:40
Mike
And I was in front of this portrait that he did of her, La Belfronie. And it was like me and him together. And again, it was like that feeling from 25 years earlier of of of looking into something divine. was like looking at Venus or something.
01:37:40
Daithi Flannery
Wow.
01:37:57
Mike
All alone. one of the more One of the, probably the greatest artists I've ever lived. You know, who was completely curious about everything and was able to capture this image of a beautiful woman just less than life so.
01:38:12
Mike
actually have it on the wall here, one sec. Not the original.
01:38:18
Mike
I have it on the wall. This isn't the original by the
01:38:21
Daithi Flannery
If you had the original note, that would probably be a different conversation.
01:38:22
Mike
Yeah! ah but
01:38:25
Mike
The original is probably up in the attic somewhere. But anyway, that's it. And I was alone with that for about an hour and a half in Abu Dhabi.
01:38:25
Daithi Flannery
Oh, fantastic.
01:38:33
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:38:36
Mike
And I was like,
01:38:38
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:38:38
Mike
that That made me feel so special. And I have a book of Leonardo's. Somebody gave me a present of a book with all his artwork and drawings and so on. And it's up there in the mantelpiece and I won't open it until the day is right. It's been there for about five years.
01:38:54
Mike
I won't open the book because I know I'll be overwhelmed by it, you know?
01:38:57
Daithi Flannery
Oh, wow.
01:38:58
Mike
Yeah, it's like, I just can't do it. I can't. i can't I can't open it because it's just so special.
01:39:05
Daithi Flannery
Will you ever open it?
01:39:05
Mike
Can you believe that?
01:39:06
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:39:07
Mike
When the day is right, I keep telling people when the day is right, love you.
01:39:09
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:39:10
Mike
I just can't do it.
01:39:11
Daithi Flannery
okay
01:39:12
Mike
Too precious.
01:39:13
Daithi Flannery
um
01:39:13
Mike
And if the house is fire, I'd run out, but I'd take that with me. it's
01:39:19
Daithi Flannery
it's yet It's strange that it's it's it's it's the most precious thing in your house ah according according to the fire, but it but it's but it's what you won't look at.
01:39:20
Mike
And I'd probably never... I... Yeah. yeah
01:39:29
Mike
Yeah. but It's extraordinary, but but I just won't do it.
01:39:29
Daithi Flannery
ah
01:39:32
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Okay.
01:39:34
Mike
Yeah.
01:39:35
Daithi Flannery
um Okay.
Art as a Conduit for Generations
01:39:36
Daithi Flannery
is Is there any project you want to promote here or tell the listeners where they can find your stuff or if they want to if they want to maybe buy your stuff?
01:39:38
Mike
yeah
01:39:43
Mike
Oh yeah. Yeah. Thank you, darling. darling. I don't have a website. Can you believe it?
01:39:52
Mike
I used to have, I just forgot it.
01:39:54
Daithi Flannery
OK. OK. Very
01:39:55
Mike
And um so on I'm on Twitter, and Instagram especially. And I produce um videos of my work and enjoy that.
01:40:06
Mike
And I music in the background
01:40:06
Daithi Flannery
ah
01:40:08
Mike
and um I just loved doing that. It's great kind of, rather than showing the static work, this is kind of a visual kind of journey through it and teasing and, just love it, you know, the create, I love that part of it, you know, and that's, well, it's, yeah, it's, I suppose, hashtag Mike O'Donnell art, yeah, or else there's Mike O'Donnell, it's kind of written M-I-K-O-D-O-N-N-E-L-L, just M-I-K-O, whatever that is, Mick or something, yeah, so, um,
01:40:23
Daithi Flannery
And is that Mike O'Donnell art on on Instagram?
01:40:29
Daithi Flannery
Hashtag Mike O'Donnell.
01:40:36
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:40:39
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:40:39
Mike
Yeah, i wish I could tell you more. There's lot more I could tell you.
01:40:44
Daithi Flannery
Okay.
01:40:44
Mike
ah ah
01:40:45
Daithi Flannery
Well, we can wait for another story.
01:40:46
Mike
i
01:40:47
Daithi Flannery
i mean, I was about to ask you my final question there that I ask everybody, but if you have another story to tell us, Mike, I'd be more than happy to hear
01:40:48
Mike
ah for
01:40:51
Mike
Go on. Yeah. ah
01:40:56
Mike
No, I've, no, I've, I, it actually, I really believe that the art is, um, it's, uh,
01:41:06
Mike
I'm like the, what would I say, the conduit, you know, flows through me. And it comes from, just speaking for myself, it comes from generations past, you know, and it comes out through me.
01:41:22
Mike
And I have to mind myself to to to allow this to come out, you know. And I'm also influenced.
01:41:27
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:41:28
Mike
it's That's my well, you know. And it's also the people kind of that have influenced me around in my life, you know, not just in previous lives, ah but in in the the people that are around me here in Kerry and also thee the environment I'm from as well.
01:41:39
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:41:49
Mike
i Like, I was talking to somebody recently. I didn't mention the place, no I won't mention it here. said, can imagine growing up in But being from Kerry, like, I'm very, it kind of, it's just so lovely for me, you know, and to be able to go up to Dublin.
01:42:03
Mike
And then I meet people up in Dublin who are like experts. They're complete experts. and And they work so hard, I kind of draw a lot of energy from them, you know.
01:42:15
Mike
And um I've seen and I see everyday people who are kind of slaves to their work. And feel I'm so lucky that you know, I give myself to my work, you know, it's, it's, um, and the artists, the art, as an artist, I submit to the, to the, the artistic impulse. I don't try and control it. I kind of go with it.
01:42:42
Mike
And, you know, the art is the, the idea is the artist creates stuff, but in fact, the art allows me, the art architecture pulls me in, you know, so I let it, it takes me to different worlds and that's fantastic for me, you know, as a human being, I think,
Philosophical Nature of Creativity
01:42:58
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:42:58
Mike
you know, I just i don't try and keep control, just kind of let it take me, you know.
01:43:03
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, that's some the great thinkers and I often think I'd have a bit of a background in philosophy in that and I think of where do ideas come from?
01:43:14
Daithi Flannery
And you find a lot of people like Nietzsche he'd go out and walk and he never really claimed the idea as his own. it It's like, well, he did, but it's it's more like the ideas has just appeared in them.
01:43:29
Mike
yeah
01:43:29
Daithi Flannery
You know and know, it all came to fruition at some stage. And is there a letting go in a way to creativity, a letting go of trying almost, a letting go of
01:43:43
Mike
Yeah. i
01:43:47
Mike
I do remember when I was chatting you there about looking at the Leonardo pieces and looking at something divine in the Michelangelo work, you know.
01:43:54
Daithi Flannery
Mm-hmm.
01:43:58
Mike
um so whether there is
01:44:05
Mike
let's put it like this as a as an artist and being completely absorbed in it i'm touching something you know that is already probably there you know maybe like the ideas in the cave you know so Plato's know the ideas they're there like the perfect circle is there probably in people's minds but it's probably
01:44:22
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. The allegory. Yeah.
01:44:29
Mike
there, you know, and you're, you're, you're, you're kind of trying to reach that. But it is there. And you know, when you've got as far as you can get kind of, you know, and then you feel, oh, maybe should gone a bit further, you know, but there is, there is I think that the existence of I think ideas probably do exist, you know,
01:44:43
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:44:52
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Yeah.
01:44:53
Mike
you know, independent of like maths, for example, mathematical, like infinite series, like it's hard to imagine, but it probably is there. I love that kind of side of things, you
Finding Beauty in Every Face
01:45:02
Mike
know.
01:45:03
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:45:04
Mike
And, you know, when you twin talk about perfection, you know, the perfect face, um I don't know if one exists, but there's perfection and in the normal as well. People might see that, you know, there's beauty in, you know, even most, you know,
01:45:22
Mike
um troubled face. I can't. I've often thought it's like I can't see an ugly person. I just can't. The face is so it's so spectacular.
01:45:39
Mike
It's so spectacular. But yet it can appear so normal. But spectacularly interesting to draw and to to study. Because I look at I'm the only person who can probably in probably in the country, that can look at somebody's face without they feeling harassed.
01:46:00
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:46:01
Mike
Especially in the courts.
01:46:02
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:46:02
Mike
Can you imagine it?
01:46:03
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:46:04
Mike
Not only their face, their whole body, their whole demeanour, their whole posture. And theres there's nothing they can do about it.
The Essence of Art Beyond the Artist
01:46:14
Mike
But I don't, i I mean, I don't, it's not harassment.
01:46:17
Mike
I'm just looking at them and I'm measuring and shaping, reshape, recreating them
01:46:17
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Yeah.
01:46:24
Mike
you know, and I'm conscious of the kind of alchemy of it, you know, from just ink, you can create something of meaning. But i like, it's really important for me, like, not to, it isn't about me, it's about the voice of the art that's in me, you know.
01:46:40
Mike
It's not, I'm just there to, I'm like an instrument, but I mind the instrument, you know, take care of it, know.
01:46:46
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:46:49
Daithi Flannery
I was listening to, ah yeah there's there's two interviews now i want to mention here. One is with Walton Goggins. He's an actor. And he talked about when he was in acting school, he heard that Anthony Hopkins and Robert Duvall and others, what they did was they read the script 250 times and then they gave themselves over to an imaginary set of circumstances.
01:47:14
Mike
Oh.
01:47:14
Daithi Flannery
End of story. So 250 times you read the script, then you give yourself over to an imaginary set of circumstances. And you go in, you do the best you can, and that's it. And you go home and happy days. so And then I heard Ethan Hawke.
01:47:26
Daithi Flannery
And he was talking about work he did with Robin Williams. And he said they'd do a scene. He said, and Robin Williams would be fantastic. And everybody would literally be feeding off Robin Williams in this scene.
01:47:40
Daithi Flannery
And the scene would go great. And it would be very energetic, you know, it would be very powerful.
01:47:46
Mike
yes
01:47:47
Daithi Flannery
And then they'd all be back in the in the canteen afterwards. And they'd be sitting around and they'd be talking. And they'd be like, wow, that was amazing. And feeling energized of it.
01:47:56
Mike
yeah
01:47:56
Daithi Flannery
But they'd look over and Robin Williams would be in the corner with a sad face, absolutely depleted because he had given everything into that moment.
01:48:05
Mike
Everything. Yeah.
01:48:08
Daithi Flannery
And ethan's Ethan Hawke's point was greatness like that doesn't come for free.
01:48:09
Mike
God.
01:48:14
Daithi Flannery
There's a cost for some people who do it to that extent.
01:48:16
Mike
There's a cross. Yeah.
01:48:19
Daithi Flannery
And I guess my question to you is, are you filled up by your art or is there sometimes a cost do it?
Sacrifices and Storytelling in Art
01:48:30
Mike
Um,
01:48:31
Mike
I sacrifice an awful lot. I probably sacrifice attention to people you know who care about me.
01:48:42
Mike
um and I know when I leave here every Monday or Tuesday morning, you know like the next Tuesday morning that I leave, you know things that I love and places and people that I love as well.
01:48:59
Mike
and I get a lot of attention from people up there, you know, and I don't know.
01:49:12
Mike
I like the art having the attention, not me, really. You know, the story isn't about me. It's about the art, you know, and that's an ancient impulse.
01:49:23
Mike
And I'm very conscious of that, you know.
01:49:27
Mike
But I i mean, i I would sacrifice anything for doing this, you know, not, not person's life or anything like that. But I, I, I, there's no, there's no, i would go hungry, you know, if I had to, to, to achieve the work that I do like I was.
01:49:44
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. Yeah.
Balancing Struggles and Gratitude
01:49:48
Mike
And there are days, you know, like in my, in my, in my work, there are days when there's nothing and then there's a feast, a huge amount of like, it's just like endless and then suddenly there's nothing.
01:50:01
Mike
I love I'm constant that the good day is preparing for the bad days. The bad days give me the hunger for the good days. you That's the I look at it.
01:50:12
Mike
You know, so if there's a dearth, I think I'm balanced, though, you know, if there was a happy-o-meter,
01:50:21
Daithi Flannery
yeah okay yeah
01:50:22
Mike
um and it's driven a lot by the art. I'm so lucky. Like, how many people, how many artists can live a good life, you know, but and supported by their...
01:50:35
Daithi Flannery
yes
01:50:37
Mike
Because they day day all struggle. Most of them struggle, and I've struggled as well. I will struggle again in the future at some stage, you know. That's fine. But I won't stop until I can't move, you know.
01:50:48
Daithi Flannery
You're lucky in many you're lucky in mady ways you're You're lucky that you do what you love and that you get so much from it.
01:50:48
Mike
Huh? huh but
01:50:57
Daithi Flannery
But listening to you speak, you're lucky that you recognize how lucky that you are. you know i think what Socrates said.
01:51:03
Mike
I hope so, yeah. Well, they say the unexamined life isn't worth living.
01:51:06
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:51:06
Mike
Isn't that they
01:51:07
Daithi Flannery
and ah so that socrates like that's what socrates said Yeah.
01:51:08
Mike
Huh?
01:51:11
Mike
Isn't it?
01:51:11
Mike
Yeah.
01:51:12
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:51:12
Daithi Flannery
yeah
01:51:12
Mike
Yeah, it's not worth it. And life is very precious.
01:51:16
Daithi Flannery
that's true
01:51:16
Mike
And i really I really, really believe that idea, you know, living each life each day as lifetime.
01:51:22
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, it's good way to look at it.
01:51:24
Mike
Lifetime. Yeah, because it's it I think it changes your perception because I remember listening to... music from some, I'm not religious at all, but there was spiritual music from Georgia on my earphones like you're wearing when I was in hospital and I loads of tubes stuck out stickhold of me and I was thinking this is the type of music I wanted when I was just leaving, you know, and flippin' hell, you know.
01:51:51
Mike
um do You wouldn't get that, that isn't injected into you or given by a tablet or anything, it's like it was in our that I had to listen to this that kind of suited me, you know. And so the artistic world like really offers kind of consolation to people, you know, and I really believe in its value. You know, I really do.
01:52:14
Mike
You know, and i think if you value yourself, people won't undervalue you, you know.
01:52:15
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:52:20
Mike
And I remember being in a car actually driving, sorry, driving Killarney with Hugh O'Flaherty, who's the man really behind my work, you know.
01:52:35
Mike
And he, I said, he said, park there, you know. I said, Hugh, you can park here, there's a double yellow line. You're a park there, he says. So I parked. And he said to me, said, if you act like a king, you'll be treated like a king.
01:52:51
Mike
And I says, there's a lot in it, you know.
01:52:54
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:52:55
Mike
The corollary is true as well, you know.
01:52:57
Daithi Flannery
ah Yeah, yeah that's that's true. That's true. That's true.
01:53:00
Mike
so If you value yourself, people will value you.
01:53:04
Daithi Flannery
Absolutely. Absolutely.
01:53:05
Mike
know
01:53:06
Daithi Flannery
I think, yeah, that's very important.
01:53:07
Mike
I do value it, but I value it only because there was times when I didn't.
Contributing to Communities
01:53:11
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:53:11
Mike
that's That's a huge cost as an artist. you know
01:53:14
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, I'd say...
01:53:15
Mike
If you don't value yourself, I i see artists all all the time like who you know would produce most people, put everything into them and offer it for free or offer it for nothing.
01:53:27
Mike
breaks my heart, you know.
01:53:29
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, I also... um else
01:53:30
Mike
Because my father used to do that as well. He didn't value himself as an artist. I remember i remember two paintings up there that he did of two children. And the mother came along and said, they're not like them at all.
01:53:42
Mike
you know And we were all looking for, you know he might have got maybe at the time maybe 25 quid or something back in the 70s or 80s or whatever it was for him. And we were all excited because she was coming on a Saturday.
01:53:55
Mike
Jesus.
01:53:57
Mike
so
01:53:58
Daithi Flannery
she she that Did that upset him?
01:54:01
Mike
No, but I think, suppose, I felt like, you know, we were excited about getting maybe something out of it, you know what i mean?
01:54:13
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:54:14
Mike
But he he didn't say anything afterwards, but I always remember that.
01:54:19
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:54:19
Mike
He said, that's fine, that's fine, she went off. She was probably entitled but, you know, there was no nothing, he got nothing from all his works, you know.
01:54:23
Daithi Flannery
She was entitled to it, of course, yeah.
01:54:28
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, that's... that's
01:54:29
Mike
That, like, he just didn't. he But there's no way I'd be treated like that. I wouldn't have that. It isn't because the art isn't just mine. It's belonged the people who supported me and my family. And, you know, I was telling my brother there, like, you know, things were going well. and He said, isn't that great?
01:54:54
Mike
I go to Dublin and bring down my money i and I spend it locally here. He said, you're contributing to local Italy. I said, I am. So I like to go down, you know, down for a bite of teeth, you know, and buy locally because that money I know is coming directly from Dublin.
01:55:12
Mike
And I love that. i port i just loved it.
01:55:15
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, I get you.
01:55:16
Mike
You know, I love that. but
01:55:18
Daithi Flannery
No, you're you're bringing it home. you're you're Yeah.
01:55:19
Mike
I'm bringing this bringing home the bacon to and it's my own community.
01:55:21
Daithi Flannery
Bringing home the big... Yeah.
01:55:24
Mike
you know
01:55:24
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:55:25
Mike
But I tell that in Dublin, I say, well, I'm bringing the home my money now down to Kerry. And I love that.
01:55:29
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:55:31
Mike
just love it.
Living Authentic and Learning from Regrets
01:55:32
Mike
ah just I out for a pint on a Friday night and I never drink. I went out for a pint on a Friday night. And somebody had paid me and I got great satisfaction.
01:55:49
Mike
So life has been good to me, but it's been tough, but it's been very good to me.
01:55:53
Daithi Flannery
Well, hopefully it continues to be good to you, Mike.
01:55:54
Mike
God, you know.
01:55:55
Daithi Flannery
Hopefully it continues.
01:55:56
Mike
Irritable, yeah. It's only getting... always starting. Huh?
01:55:59
Daithi Flannery
every Every day. every Every day, zero day.
01:56:01
Mike
Every day. Every day. Yeah,
01:56:04
Daithi Flannery
Yeah. yeah ah Okay, Mike. Well, I'm going to ask you that final question now and then we leave it there. Is that all right?
01:56:13
Mike
yeah.
01:56:15
Daithi Flannery
The final question is, and you can be
01:56:15
Mike
Great stuff. Hmm.
01:56:19
Daithi Flannery
Well, it's only going to be a one sentence answer, I think. if we were If we were writing a new story as to what it is to be human, and you could add one sentence to that story, what would it be?
Conclusion and Gratitude
01:56:37
Mike
I'll tell you what, for me, and i and it's to
01:56:42
Mike
and i've I've done all the wrong things, you know. And my father say to know, you ought to take a fool's advice and stuff like that. I saw written on a book, I've loads books outside, and then an old, old book there is To Thy Know Itself Be True.
01:57:01
Mike
That's it. Yeah.
01:57:02
Daithi Flannery
Yeah, that's a good one, Mike.
01:57:03
Mike
To Thy Know Itself Be True. Yeah.
01:57:07
Mike
There you go
01:57:07
Daithi Flannery
That's a good one.
01:57:12
Mike
go. To be authentic authentic is just number one. never Never plough your own path always. And
01:57:23
Mike
learn from what you regret. you know And on with it.
01:57:27
Daithi Flannery
That's it.
01:57:28
Mike
Drive on. Is that enough?
01:57:30
Mike
ah
01:57:30
Daithi Flannery
Drive on.
01:57:31
Daithi Flannery
That's enough. that it's its It's a decent sentence, but I think there's plenty in it.
01:57:34
Mike
ah Somebody told me dingle yesterday. I sent it to the car and she told me to drive it like I stole it.
01:57:45
Daithi Flannery
ah You get great one-liners going down around Kerry and ah you do you get the best ones.
01:57:46
Mike
Thanks, guys. ah
01:57:51
Daithi Flannery
But, uh, Mike, thanks a lot for coming and talking to us. And listeners, if you want to find Mike's stuff, you can find him, as he said, on Instagram and Facebook.
01:57:54
Mike
thanks guys
01:58:02
Daithi Flannery
And I'd ask a ask you to go and look at his stuff and support him as much as you can. Uh,
01:58:09
Mike
I didn't have the time to look at it, but I started looking at a podcast you did with a professor about Trump.
01:58:18
Daithi Flannery
Oh yeah, that was Professor John Polly from America.
01:58:19
Mike
I must... Trump from America, yeah yeah.
01:58:21
Daithi Flannery
Yeah.
01:58:23
Mike
I must have a look them, but I was telling my brother, hes he's very, very kind of probing. And I like that, you know.
01:58:35
Mike
I wish you the best of success. Is there anything you want from me, like, in terms of could I get somebody for you? Are you
01:58:44
Daithi Flannery
yeah Well, we can talk about that afterwards, Mike. i'll i'll just say I'll just say goodbye to the listeners and hopefully Mike is going to hook me up with some more guests to bring you all.
01:58:55
Mike
that? Stop!
01:58:56
Daithi Flannery
ah ah Mr. Gerry Hutch, I would love to have you on the podcast if you'd like to talk about the the the philosophy of ah of your own career.
01:59:03
Mike
Oh.
01:59:07
Daithi Flannery
But okay, listeners, thank you very much for listening. And we'll catch you next time. Remember, talking is thinking.