Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Ep 10 - Napoleon, Connemara, and freedom
8 Plays10 months ago
In this episode we talk to archeologist Frank O'Connor about coastal defences in the west of Ireland during the Napoleonic era. If your interested in Irish history, then this one's for you.
Please Like and Subscribe, it helps a lot.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Philosophagory Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello listeners and thanks again for tuning into Philosophagory.
Guest Introduction: Frank O'Connor, Archaeologist
00:00:06
Speaker
Today our guest is a man by the name of Frank O'Connor. Frank has varied interests but he is by trade an archaeologist. Frank specializes in the coastal defenses of Ireland during the Napoleonic era.
Martello Towers on the Irish Coastline
00:00:24
Speaker
So I had Frank on to talk about the Martello Towers that dot our coastline.
00:00:31
Speaker
Now to tell the story of these towers and this time, I'm gonna try and set it up by by first telling you a about some TV series and films that represent that time. And then I'm gonna talk about three thinkers and three revolutions, which also are highly influential in that time and on each other.
00:01:00
Speaker
So the TV series, to first kind of build a visual representation of what that time might have been like, the TV series, Paul Dark, was set then. We have Master and Commander with Russell Crowe. Pride and Prejudice and Sense and Sensibility were both made around then, or written around then, should I say. The Patriots with Mel Gibson. The Count of Monte Cristo. Of course, the Miserable.
00:01:27
Speaker
The last of the Mohicans, the first emperor, which would have been the other side of the world with the beginning of the Qing dynasty in China. We have Sharpe, the three musketeers, Amistad, the Alamo, and Captain Cook discovered Australia in 1770. Now the main focus of our time of our discussion here is going to be around 1800 and before and after a few years.
Napoleon's Era: Actions and Plans
00:02:00
Speaker
But the century leading up to this was very interesting and tells the story of why Napoleon was thinking of doing what he was doing.
The Glorious Revolution's Impact on Ireland
00:02:12
Speaker
First of all, I'm going to go back to 1688. which is called the Glorious Revolution in England. Now I just have to say that's the Glorious Revolution in England because it was bloodless, but on this side of the water in Ireland, it was not bloodless and it was anything but glorious. But regardless, the Glorious Revolution was when William of Orange came over from Holland and took the crown in England.
00:02:43
Speaker
And with that, he brought stability. Before that, there had been a lot of disagreements about whether it was a Catholic country, a Protestant country. There was Catholic kings waiting in the wings. This kind of put a stamp on it that this is a Protestant country.
00:03:08
Speaker
Not only that, but they also had the ideas of a man called John Locke floating around. Now, John Locke, he wasn't from a very rich family, but he was a very, very influential intellectual of his time and since.
00:03:34
Speaker
He was what they call a social contract theorist. Now, before him there was a guy called Hobbs. And he talked about the state of nature, and the state of nature was violent. It was a war of all against all, and just he painted a very horrible picture of the state of nature, and his answer was that a Leviathan would come along, or need we needed a Leviathan, be it a king, or a collection of people as in the government, or whatever it was, but we needed something big and powerful to kind of
00:04:10
Speaker
take charge of all these people in the state of nature. And John Locke came after him and he didn't have the same view of the state of nature. He said, yeah, it can be dangerous, but it's not so bad, really. I mean, we get along. When somebody does something wrong, it's a high chance they'll be punished if they do something to somebody else.
00:04:40
Speaker
He said, that in this state of nature, we actually we actually kind of have natural rights. We have the rights to our own body. We have the right to live. And we can we can claim ownership of that. and We have the right to be free, as in to go about our business unhindered, as long as we're not hurting anybody, you know, or causing or causing a mess. And also we have the right to private property.
00:05:10
Speaker
his idea was that if we worked with something that we actually kind of put some of ourselves into that thing so when we mixed our labor with something we actually made it part of us so we had ownership in whatever it was if we built a house we had ownership in that house And that's how it was described back then. Nowadays we'd say we own that house, but back then it was we had ownership in that house. And that's from the argument to John Locke. So John Locke claims that from nature, from this state of nature, we actually have the right to life, the right to liberty, and the right to property. But this was rather new, because before this time,
00:06:03
Speaker
We were ruled by aristocracy, monarchies, city-states, but individual rights that actually came from nature that weren't given, that someone had, they were inalienable, and that somebody couldn't be alienated from these rights or separated from these rights. Being a human, I mean, you had these rights. So you can see why John Locke was a haunted man for some of his life,
00:06:33
Speaker
because he was pushing up against powerful forces with these ideas. He was taking power from monarchies with his arguments and taking power from religions with his arguments.
00:06:48
Speaker
And this brought about a strong parliament in England.
00:06:55
Speaker
which had William of Orange as its constitutional monarch. So kind of moving towards a figurehead like what we have today in England.
00:07:07
Speaker
Now England had been moving in this direction since the Magna character which was i can fifteen
00:07:15
Speaker
So we're talking around 1688, the Glorious Revolution. It still catches my throat to say the glorious in that sentence. But what this also caused was a financial revolution or a physical revolution. Before this time, the king could dip his hand in the coffers any time he wanted. The king was in charge of collecting taxes and the king was in charge of spending and all.
00:07:45
Speaker
everything was down to the king. The king asked to borrow money and it was the king who was supposed to pay it back and often the king died perhaps without paying it back and there was a change of ruler and the following ruler didn't take on the debt of the past king and so many financial institutions lost their uh lost their neck back then with this or financial institutions just probably being rich rich people of the time and the Maybe the East India Trading Company could have been another financial institution that helped out. But what this done for England was it helped them organize their finances. It helped them generate their own taxes, their own tax codes. This gave them a lot of power as they were fighting armies abroad, which was mostly the French.
00:08:44
Speaker
often in type of proxy wars and and and Spain of course as well too but many of them were against the French they were fighting in America for basically ownership of America who would be the the governing powers and England was winning and this was following the Glorious Revolution and coming up to 1776 England was winning And this was had a lot to do with the way they were managing their money.
00:09:19
Speaker
So this brings us actually up to 1776, our next revolution. And the thinker that I have to associate this with, even though Locke is clearly, clearly, clearly, probably the most influential thinker in the American Declaration of Independence and influential on the founding fathers thoughts,
00:09:43
Speaker
But Adam Smith, the the father of capitalism, he wrote The Wealth of Nations, which we call the Bible of capitalism. But he too was linking on to the ideas of John Locke and the ideas of individual freedoms, the power to govern ourselves, and how we might be able to do this in the marketplace to build economies.
00:10:12
Speaker
how we might be able to start to work together more fluidly and come together in factories. Of course, this was the Industrial Revolution too. So all of these things were happening together. To say one caused the other might be kind of tricky. Philosophers would like to say it was the enlightenment that caused it. All scientists would like to say it was...
00:10:36
Speaker
science which actually is in with the enlightenment too but you know engineers would probably like to say it was the inventions but all of these things worked together and Adam Smith's ideas really helped in this goal of progressing this type of society where everybody can live freely and we somehow have a invisible hand that manages to find the price of things And so anybody who knows America studies economics can see that America and Adam Smith's capitalism went hand in hand.
American Revolution and Capitalism
00:11:15
Speaker
The American Declaration of Independence was written in 1776 and Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations was published in 1776. This of course could be just a happy coincidence, but it shows you the
00:11:32
Speaker
The birth of these two great ideals, America and capitalism, happened around the same time, at least found their farm or around the same time. And so America had its revolution. And there was poor old France. They had lost most of North America to the English.
00:11:59
Speaker
their king was still borrowing money the old way. They hadn't had that fiscal revolution. And they were broke. They were deeply in debt. 40% of the French income was going to pay the interests on their debts. And they still were trying to borrow more. So the people were sick of it.
00:12:28
Speaker
You could see why the people in France really had disdain for the monarchy in ways that perhaps England didn't have since the change to their constitutional monarchy, because you couldn't blame the king for the country being broke in England. But you absolutely could in France.
00:12:51
Speaker
And of course this, we got the famous revolution, the Stormy of the Bastille, the Marie Antoinette and Louis XIV and all the stories of beheadings and guillotining and great war battles of the French Revolution. And in the end, one man came out on top, you could say, Napoleon.
00:13:19
Speaker
And so Napoleon liked this new idea of freedom. Now let me tell you about the thinker I want to associate with the French Revolution. There's a guy called Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Now Rousseau was also a social contract theorist.
00:13:38
Speaker
And Rousseau also had ideas about the state of nature, just like Hobbes is his in need of his Leviathan. And John Locke, which brought us our rights. But for Rousseau, the state of nature was not wicked like it was for Hobbes. And it was not just kind of okay like it was for John Locke. The state of nature was paradise. The state of nature was harmony. The state of nature was absolute freedom for humans.
00:14:14
Speaker
I mean, he looked around and saw that people had to work and then get money and then go buy food, then go home, then go buy fuel, then go to cookers, and had to follow all the laws and the rules. He's like, well, in the state of nature, we just have to go and pick the food up from the ground or go and hunt our animals or pick berries off the bushes and fruit off the trees. This was Rousseau's idea of the state of nature. But he agreed that We needed governance. We needed to come together in a social contract. But I think for Rousseau, it wasn't so much that we chose or wanted to come together to make these social contracts. It was out of necessity. It was out of growing populations and bad actors and, you know, people acting the maggot, basically, as he'd say. but And so we had to.
00:15:12
Speaker
So if we have to, for Rousseau, if we have to do this governing thing, then we have to try and make room for as much human freedom as possible. And for Locke, once the government was made, the government became sovereign, became basically kind of the ruler of the people. Now, the people always had the right for Locke to revolt. But But the politicians were there as representatives of the people for Locke and and they'd make arguments and maybe make decisions. This was not so for Rousseau. For Rousseau, politicians were merely messengers. They should carry the way the will of the people unchanged. And if they start changing it and making decisions according to their own ideas,
00:16:05
Speaker
Well then they need to be taken down and replaced with a new messenger.
00:16:11
Speaker
So the French Revolution then was a bit more radical and aimed for more egalitarian it focus than perhaps the American Revolution and certainly the Glorious Revolution.
00:16:32
Speaker
But along came Napoleon then. He was in charge. The Emperor. And he really wanted to mess with the English, I mean, he was still fighting and fighting battles against the English. The English had supported many enemies of France for the simple reason of costing them money and keeping their attention elsewhere while they took over America and other places.
00:17:00
Speaker
So Napoleon wanted to cause some trouble back for the English, so he decided one of the places he was going to liberate was Ireland. Now this this was not a an empty threat. After the revolution, Napoleon went on a bit of a rampage around Europe and further afield to Egypt and liberated these people from from
Napoleon's Liberation Plans and English Fortifications
00:17:30
Speaker
colonial rule.
00:17:33
Speaker
So he was coming to Ireland to liberate the Irish, to free the Irish. He even had a an Irish Legion of his own, which eventually became the French Foreign Legion. But that but this was made to scare the English Perhaps maybe he was intending to liberate Ireland, but either way, the English started quivering and knew they needed to protect the coastline of the island of Ireland. And so that is where we will jump in with Frankie today.
00:18:20
Speaker
Frankie is going to tell us about Ireland in the 1800s, with particular focus on the west of Ireland. And more specifically, maybe what things were like in Connemara, which is one of the westernmost points of Ireland out on the Atlantic coast. And as I said, to do that, we have Mr. Frank O'Connor.
Archaeological Insights from Frank O'Connor
00:18:43
Speaker
How are you, Frankie?
00:18:45
Speaker
Good, now. How are you, diet? I'm good. Thanks, sir. Let me be on your podcast. Thanks for joining us, Frank. It's an absolute pleasure to have you. To Frank Haines, you work in archaeology. What digs have you been on? So the last dig I was on was down in the Burren Kirk on the fort, which the fort has been excavated before, the main fort. What's the fort? I don't know. So a fort, or a rig fort. Rig forts are the most common arterial monument from de narelet
00:19:16
Speaker
well over eighty thousand spec to be more But in the boring it's slightly different because they may they're called cachos, because they're made of stone rather than earth mounds, which is more common around you know other parts of the country. So firstly, when I did some post-exervation work of stone,
00:19:44
Speaker
of goods from there What kind of things? So knives, bones, beads and a game piece. A game piece? Yes, a game piece found from a strategy board similar to Tess and that was found and although there are historic records saying that chiefs and the kings from the tools and stuff were playing these for strategy you know for game tactics and it was a pastime even mentioned in the Thambachula, and one of these was found. And and strangely enough, the archaeology evidence from that site showed before the bring force went out of fashion in the maybe 12th, 13th century, but showed evidence for that place in the Burren, it was used up to the 17th century. And a pen, a shaft pen,
00:20:42
Speaker
was found, and which was made from a hind leg of a swan. A shaft pen. that's The shaft of a pen. So it would be used like a fountain pen. The tip wasn't found, but the shaft was. Okay. oh i'm During that period, people thought the Irish didn't know how to read or write, but shows evidence that they could read or write, but maybe just their own documents and evidence hasn't survived.
00:21:07
Speaker
that's very interesting so obviously in the seventeenth century this this was that where the normans were controlledling vast areas but the borrowed they left to the borrowed gala chiefs and so on. Oh they didn't go near the burn? No because the lad wasn't that suitable for them. Okay. So but it should have been known although the burn looks like a harsh landscape it's one of the most culturally diverse place in Ireland. So Boolean where you take your livestock down from the mountain
00:21:45
Speaker
before winter and bring them down to the low lads in the bar it's different they do the upset so wintertridge and there's only a handful of places in the world that do this this is due to the landscape and that the so most of the plant life in Ireland is found, that most diverse diverse plant life in Ireland is found in the burren because orchids and so on grow in between the cracks and crevices, the gikes in the burren. That's so strange because to look at it it looks like a moonscape like it's barren. Yes and that's because the hazel trees they were easily cleared and there was
00:22:20
Speaker
probably one of the first settlers in her that looked for places like that because it would have been easily cleared in these gikes a lot of foliage would remain. So the cattle would be feasted on this through the winter and plus the limestone stays warm so the cattle don't even get that cold during the winter. So that's the difference between winter and Chibooli. The limestone stays warm so it maintains some of the heat from the summer months. Yes, and because the limestone is hollow underneath so you'll hardly see a lake or a river in boin because it just goes straight down
00:22:58
Speaker
okay so that's where there's lot of caves and underwater be found. And is that like volcanic rock then or something? or like like Why is there so many gaps under it? Because the limestone grows slightly easier. So yeah from, you know, acid rain. and Oh, and it leaves gaps and stuff. oh Okay, now I get you. Now I get you.
00:23:21
Speaker
And did you find anything personally yourself, Franklin? I know the archaeologists love to actually be the one to put your hands on things. so Did you find it? Absolutely. I did the post-research and it was interesting. And then I got this year a chance to go down and there's a the smaller ring fortune beside it. yeah And yes, I found an iron knife, which was quite long, six inches. okay And, you know, there's knives of all different sizes, but nothing at that size.
00:23:49
Speaker
Okay. And some of them are as small, as a couple of centimeters. Wow. Used for different tools and so on. And like I'm just thinking a couple of centimeter knife, what would they have been using that for? Maybe cotton leather or something to press it into something? Could it be? Could it be to decorate in our objects? And if you look at artifacts such as the tar approach, there's so much detail there that even with a magnifying glass, it's hard to see all of it.
00:24:17
Speaker
Okay, and they were very particular in their designs if it's let an art or Celtic designs and so on. Oh, it gets us Okay, so there's other so that must have been a big one you found then I had six inches. Yeah. Yeah, so hopefully it's dated from the medieval period and Such as the famous picture of the feasting hall which during that time the chief would have been carving the meat. okay Hopefully it's that. you're wholeome goal we willll take there But is there it's can you like is there a way of verifying that it's that knife? Yes, after a post-activation and certain times, if there's enough you know proper material in and around it, we'll be able to verify it close to the date, but it's too early to say now. Okay, I get you.
00:25:11
Speaker
i get yeah buts What's the difference, Frankie, between heritage and archaeology? So heritage, heritage is what everyone can use. Archaeology is the evidence that's found. So if you go to a heritage site, it's usually a touristy place where everyone's been educated, you know, such a museum, cultural site. And well, archaeology is the evidence finding to prove this.
00:25:44
Speaker
So heritage would take aspects of archaeology, but not all of it, as aspect of tourism and aspects in history and so on, and bind it together as a teaching aid. So would actually, aa our would is history the word I should have put in the middle there? Would it be archaeology finds it, history kind of, does that put it together?
00:26:08
Speaker
in different ways but now this heritage spreads it out again is it's a so if you if you wanted to information for everyone everyone and easily available that's where heritage comes in okay archaeology is the tool to get the information where heritage could use okay Okay. So, and heritage is closely linked to tourism. I getcha. So, if you're doing archaeology, you don't want to load a load of tourists going around, stamping everything down. No. But tour heritage would welcome tourism because that gives them a huge income. And a lot of these historical sites would be
00:26:58
Speaker
given to the Heritage Council or committee or so on, and they'll be able to profit it and such. And I suppose protect them too at the same time. Well, a lot of times they're trying to protect them from the tourists they bring to them. Yes. isn Sometimes the tourists do more damage than unintentionally, I have to say, yeah because if the archaeology is isn't done right or fully, which is often the case, because finance is very difficult to get it, tourists could be stepping on.
00:27:26
Speaker
going around the goods looking being inquisitive and trying to figure out but properly damage it what maybe it hasn't been exinated or still to be worked on yeah is there anyia Is there any sites you're going working on in the future that that you can tell us about? Yeah, so hopefully, I can't you tell you too much about it because it hasn't been published yet, but hopefully there will be another dig next summer, a large voluntary dig here in Galway and Armore. Okay, well hopefully we'll have have you on to tell us the ins and outs of that when when it's been published and stuff like that. And is there any other digs
00:28:06
Speaker
around the world, that that you'd aspire to be young. What would be your number one take to be young? Or is is there could you name your top five? Well, I'd say Pompeii would be a lovely one. Now, I would love to do, obviously, the war at the Napoleon, the defenses, especially in the East Coast of England, where the original Montello Towers would have started, and, of course, the Corsica Tower.
00:28:34
Speaker
The original tower. that rational tower okay it's I find it very interesting that like we're talking about Napoleon when he came to attack Ireland and and that not attack Ireland, attack the British Empire, which is Ireland at the time.
00:28:53
Speaker
But he's from Corsica originally, isn't he? He was born on the island of Corsica, I think. And that's where the towers the original tower is, yeah which the British then built in Ireland to protect themselves against Napoleon.
00:29:05
Speaker
yeah but sorry go Any other digs around the world that you'd like to go on? I would love to see the pyramids in South America. yeah you know the atic and so on like that because david find other towers within the ju nots and so on Okay, and and would you ever spend you like you mentioned there you'd like to Towers in the jungle. Are towers basically what you're looking for? Are they your specialty now? Are they... Yes, they'll always have a place in my heart. I'd be interested in every tip. Yeah, of course. Apart from animal boats, because when yeah especially down in Clare, we've found so much animal boat and sick of looking. Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, thanks, Frankie. So what is it that first got you interested about this topic?
00:30:01
Speaker
Now, the topic of Martello Towers and Signal Towers, which were built to defend against a Napoleonic vision, firstly, there's Martello Tower, less than a mile where I grew up. And a couple of miles further, there is a Signal Tower. And i always I was always interested in it. And in archaeology, although their features are quite reported, they don't.
00:30:28
Speaker
report them in a way which the bri how important these were during the time. For a lot of places there were were more places rural areas and they shaped the landscape for the last 200 years for different reasons.
00:30:51
Speaker
and and did you you grew up not far from one of these towers. So I just imagine you were down hitting the Schlatter around the tower and wondering what it was. Is that, is that what what are you like looking at these towers wondering what is this thing standing just down the road from my house? Yes, and well what was the features? What was the point of them? What was the point of it? and That's where the philosophy of archaeology comes from. You're taking the material remains that are left and try to puzzle together the the the
00:31:22
Speaker
questions so that everyone ask that's what led me into archaeology asking the questions what remains because sometimes the written sources don't give a clear picture but if you can hold something in your hand although you you you do use the written sources you can either ask new questions or find maybe the proper answers.
Sources for Thesis on Martello Towers
00:31:46
Speaker
Okay and I get you and for this for for your work on these towers what sources did you use for that? There's many sources I used mostly about fortifications and
00:32:04
Speaker
sources which were from the school's collections, Artuchos, which took stories from young children maybe put within 40 years. So in le living memory from their parents or grandparents, which we were were able to get certain stories, which I did use in my thesis. That's fantastic. So so and I think the school's collection was made around 1939, is that right? Yes. And they had all the schoolchildren in Ireland go home and question their parents and grandparents about folklore and stories. Yes, there was a wide range of stories. There could be a lot about the fairy mounds, different places, changelings, about the how Ireland became what it was, you know, the invasion, the invasion of the my leisure
00:32:59
Speaker
to to mcdonal and all adapt okay and luckily i was able to get some of the information from the Martello Tower in Brazil. That's that's wonderful, you know, that that just the fact that they did that with the schools collection. I wonder now Ireland had a strong oral tradition of passing stories and myths and legends and stuff down. If that hadn't been written down, then I wonder how many people alive now, born in the last 30 years, would have any knowledge of them stories. They would have been just completely forgotten, I think.
00:33:33
Speaker
bit Very little and it's a good source so anyone who's doing research in their local area should check that for other sources because you can find certain like certain places where maybe don't show up maps and certain if you're finding a Waki feature which can be useful and then you can also, although my sources were from school children,
00:34:02
Speaker
it did back up on its historical records as well. So the information such as the building of the towers and stuff, I was able to use both sources which were very closely related. Very good.
Structure and Strategy of Martello Towers
00:34:18
Speaker
And OK, describe one of these towers for us, Frankie. First of all, were they all the same? And maybe describe for for the listeners who were trying to build a picture in their head what they'd see if they walked up to one of these towers.
00:34:32
Speaker
So there's two fortifications. First is the Matalo Tar.
00:34:41
Speaker
but they were placed in key strategic areas to stop ships from landing troops. okay And one of the key places was a good transport area. So if there was a place where large amount troops can unload quickly, set up a fortification and hold it, those were most of the areas where the Matalla was there, just to hold off.
00:35:08
Speaker
the evading ships to other troops' cave. All right. And what did they look like? What were they made of? They were made of stone, usually made from local stones, big, large slabs, ashtray, slow masonry stone. In the west coast here, it was lime. And then there was a rubble core dug up from nearby locations. And they were circular in shape and so very strong.
00:35:38
Speaker
they're still stabbed him to this day. Yeah, that's amazing. And I saw in one of the pictures, it was like a cannon on top that had a revolving in turret Which to me seems very advanced and for for for that time. what Were these like the forefront of military technology in those days? Yes, but they they go back to older gun towers. So the main origin was in Corsica. So that out more telotowers, which was where a few English ships tried to take certain key positions.
00:36:19
Speaker
but the manal tower affecteded art these ships It wasn't until a landing party came from the rear of the tower, which they were able to take. Although the design was slightly different, the main principle was from there. Then other towers, which from other regions, gun towers, they took such as the cannon or the revolving platform and brought that to build the Martello Tower.
00:36:47
Speaker
yeah which you see in the english course and irish of course predominantly but there are towers found portwide in australia dr america their towers to be found, even in age as well.
00:37:02
Speaker
and no
00:37:04
Speaker
Ireland has had a cost for a long time. Why did it need protecting or guarding at this particular time in history? so Like you were saying, that there was this was a time of great change. there were Irish rebellions were starting up.
00:37:23
Speaker
people seeing what of what was happening in the united states and in france and they could call upon yeah certain aid if they wanted to fight the english because the english were fighting on all for fronts around the world at during this time and french want the a healthy Irish to get their independence so they would have a back door to ing England okay so such as a wolf toe
00:37:54
Speaker
he was a part of the french army at that time Enough, sorry, of the French Army. Okay, the Wolftown is a very famous name in Ireland. We have one of our most famous bands, is is it is currently on its last tour, they're called the Wolftones. We have the Wolftown Bridge in Galway and his name pops up all over the country. Who is Wolftown?
00:38:14
Speaker
So Wolfthorn was a Protestant. A Protestant? Yes, so a Protestant Irishman. So a couple of generations, he his family was English, but they settled in Ireland. But he seen the plight and that was happening to Irish, especially to Irish Catholics. And he joined at the United Irishmen and they weren't about to find that a road for Irish independence and although he lived in America in the capital at the time, Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, yeah for sorry, yeah for Philadelphia, and he had strong connections with France, so he seemed
00:38:58
Speaker
the independence that was there and he called a lot of troops from France to help in the Irish rebellion. But unfortunately, it didn't work out so well for him. No, what happened? So the first, there was two landing parties as as in 1796 and 1798. Okay. And the first landing party had 15,000 troops, and they were going to land a battery bay cork.
00:39:25
Speaker
and due to bad weather and lack of provisions troops had to turn back. and that and at later party went up to the coast of Mayo, 1400 men were able to land and after a few small squirmish mostly from local Irish troops loyal to the king were defeated until they came down and found resistance against a strong
00:39:59
Speaker
more a professional english army and then the world were defeated that Was that the the rising of 1798? Yes. Yeah. There was something like 25,000 Irish people killed there. and When they brought all the local Irish people together, but they initially had few good ways, but when they fought the the New Age army the of the British, yeah there're they were defeated. There must have been like a revolutionary fervor
00:40:31
Speaker
all going around the whole world. America had just kicked out the king and found its independence. France had just done it. So this was Ireland's attempt at the same thing, but I guess it failed the first time. Yes, yeah and absolutely at the same time the spanish joined the french to read Cape Nines, which the British struck them up about a century ago. So there there were skirmishes in Asia and Africa and so on. was it was It really was a type of world war at that stage, wasn't it? Like there was so much geopolitical things going on. and
00:41:06
Speaker
so many different alliances, and I know that the English also had an alliance with the Prussians, which would now be Germany, to to basically have another fighting front open for the French to cost them more money. It's it's interesting because like like I talked about the fiscal revolution, everybody knew the French didn't have that control over their taxes. So just costing them money was not what the English were trying to do. And these towers that were built around Ireland.
Reasons for England's Coastal Fortifications
00:41:43
Speaker
Napoleon had stated that he was going to liberate Ireland and and that. Was he ever really going to do it or was it a way to keep the English busy? I wonder. Yes, this was a huge undertaking so like i said fifty towers around the coast and then there were eighty one of the signal towers. Yeah. And these were all mapped. Okay, how many people? So in the Montalo towers, depending on the tower, some of them had batteries, some of them didn't. What is the battery? The battery is where you place your cannon, which can take fire and they could shoot out so although there were
00:42:22
Speaker
canons on the top of the towers, there's also batteries around them. Okay. And there could have been up to 30 bit, you know, in Russellville would be slightly less because it's a smaller tower, because that they only had to protect more climate or the costumer severe. But if you multiply that by 50, that's a lot of people, a lot of men, a lot of resources and a lot of money being spent on guarding Ireland. Yes. Why was Ireland so important to the British Empire?
00:42:52
Speaker
because they they protected the coastline in two fronts. Firstly, up to stop extra arms coming from you that the United States okay to help the Irish and to stop the French.
00:43:07
Speaker
are and other supplies come into Ireland for aid to stop the Irish rebellion, because Ireland was a key breadbasket for England at that time to feed their military. and They didn't have enough troops to place troops all around the coast, so the towers which were which happened at the same time were a signal station from ballhead to dolin so they apart from the northeast they didn't need it because they had plenty ships
00:43:40
Speaker
off the Scottish coast. all right yeah But off the west coast from Donegal, the signal could be traced to and fro to the towers and they would have then the So just like cities and so on. So there were also like barracks. So if something did take place down there. They could send a lot of troops down and basically base them around the tower. And did did the the people who manned these towers, did they actually live in the towers? Yes, I know. OK. So when they were on duty, they lived in the towers. So there was two floors. OK. So around 50 men was needed to operate the towers.
00:44:29
Speaker
for the admission to operate the cannon. There was eight, and then there was an officer. You took eight men to operate one cannon? Yes. Wow. To adjust it, to move it, to lift it for height. and To load it, I guess. To load it, yeah to make it functional, and make it to shoot quite fast, so reloading, and to adjust what it does.
00:44:59
Speaker
so but letter where they were shooting and so on. And and it it sounds like for the time, it was a rather big undertaking, like a big big logistical project to do, a big design project, an architectural project. And how long did it take them to build these 50 towers? Well, they were done in sections. So the first the first ones were made in Dublin and Cork.
00:45:26
Speaker
and those were the key t key locations so they were done by 1805 and then 10 years later all the towers were done but that was at the end of Napoleon's reign he was gone by the stage and it was long after that from the towers and the signal towers and the motel towers were decommissioned. Some of them were used for other reasons afterwards, but there was never a shot fired in anger. So there was never a shot fired from these towers? The motel towers, no. so perfect good than project Apart from one of the signal towers in Kerry was attacked by locals. Okay. Do you know much about that story? Just that it was attacked and they overtook the tower, but later the the English
00:46:15
Speaker
you regain control of the tower It was a big a big rebel county carry, wasn't it? Always is. Always is and always has been. kid Who was the man for that the British were protecting against at this time? Now you mentioned the American arms coming into Ireland. Was it them or was it mainly Napoleon who put this?
00:46:44
Speaker
because he had a large irony, which could evade it. And he did try twice before all these towers were built. So Napoleon would have been the greatest threat. He would have been. I mean, it seems like all the aristocratic powers in Europe must have been shaken in their boots when Napoleon took charge. And when he when he said, you know what, the French Revolution was good, but we're going to spread it around a little bit. But also you have to think about the signal towers were also defensive.
00:47:14
Speaker
and they were also mad and other places where they had signal towers they didn't have them as defenses and that was due because eternal and external threats so napoleon and the local irish rebellions as well
00:47:31
Speaker
Okay. So they kind of, yeah, they played two roles. It wasn't just signal towers in England. They were only protecting the coast, but signal towers in Ireland were protecting the coast and the locals, they were protecting against the locals attacking.
Protection of Ireland's West Coast
00:47:47
Speaker
Okay. Okay. I can see how that could be questioned.
00:47:58
Speaker
but structures around the the west coast of Ireland. It's from Aotear Square because it was poor land. They didn't have need for it. They wanted to protect it, the large fields inland to the south. The famous saying to Heather to Connachtown. That's it. And now, who actually built these
Construction of the Towers and Local Labor Involvement
00:48:21
Speaker
towers? Now, what I mean by that is I know it was the British and the British Commission but and all that, but was it British hands that led the blocks?
00:48:28
Speaker
So it was in charge of the Royal Engineers. okay and But they they hired locals to do most of most of the work. so like You have to think and a lot of the Irish still lived in a more traditional way. Attach houses, croppo brino even mud houses and so on like like that.
00:48:48
Speaker
maybe timber or wattle and so on, but especially rural areas, yeah poor rural areas. But the Irish people were gifted a working with stone. on They just chose not to live in it for the most part. Okay. And now that goes back even to medieval times. Yeah. But such as the school's collections, I did find out and like the tower recipe was limestone, which was caper and local robert corps
00:49:21
Speaker
in the middle act their pastures of the hookers came in use pulled along polar light being injured during the process. I can't imagine health and safety was a big thing back then. So it was Galway Hookers, which is a famous Galway boat, that brought the storm from Arran across. And I doubt very much it was the English sailors that in the Galway Hookers. No, because as anyone that's familiar with the West Coast, it's rugged, it's sharp.
00:50:08
Speaker
unless, even with preparator, if you don't know where the stones jumping at certain times, depending on the tide, you'll need a small boat that's easily able to navigate this coastline, and that's why they were chosen. And and and a man at the helm who knows where the stones are just under the surface of the water, I imagine, which had to be locals. Yeah, that's that's very interesting. And what kind of How do I say this?
News Reach in Connemara around 1800
00:50:38
Speaker
Okay, imagine the news cycle that we have in the world now, where it feels like Trump, who was shot only me a couple of months ago, feels like it was years ago. So I imagine back then, the news cycle in 1800 in Connemara, how much news about what was happening in the world were they getting?
00:51:01
Speaker
Probably little apart from what the English soldiers they brought to them because there would have been constant chips for supplies and so on. They would have brought stuff like coffee, tobacco, luxury items at that time yeah to locals, even fruits such as orange, which probably was alien.
00:51:21
Speaker
to a lot of people that type at they would even you know information of what was happening in the in the States and France. During this time, these were people that worked the land or the sea or boat because they were famine types as well. Yeah. And that they were probably illiterate for the most part. Yeah. And because there was no infrastructure, the only that was of great use was the water. There were no roads or hardly any roads. There was no roads out towards Connemara or any places like that. not during that time
00:52:00
Speaker
it was the such as the first proper road that was built would it be the military road up to the tower
00:52:09
Speaker
So these towers actually brought infrastructure and brought some roads? yes and approved peers approved you know there's a search although the british military needed these air this time they brought commonly to the place where there was little or no because but that work in this poor land for themselves and probably trading it to the local cities, they would have very little income. Yeah. It's a like a lot of Ireland is very fertile land, but Connemara and the west coast of Galway there is pretty barren and rugged and stony and rocky. And and I just think it must have kind of hurt the English that they had to protect this land that they really didn't want. you know
00:53:00
Speaker
And then, yeah, one of the few places where they might have left a little bit more than they took. That's why I said there's very little evidence of English structures apart from these Montello Signal Towers along the west coast, especially South Galway. Compared to the likes of Kilkenny or Dublin or all.
00:53:24
Speaker
castles such just cut the briskcar and and so much more where the the lad was key for control and there is more richness to protect yeah around here around the west coast so there was very little and as you said too early was to hell or to come. They put them to the marginal places. Yeah, yeah so they were just kind of having a guard at the back door almost. That's it. was answer yeah the What kind of relationships
00:53:55
Speaker
did the locals have with the people who manned these towers? For the most part, they were quite well. For accounts in the Batalu Tower of Vesevia, locals played such as turf, vegetables and so on. And there's a count of deaths. So the the soldiers, English english soldiers brought and goods had provided it was local music as well and there was a great dance celebrated the the edda harvest there at the tower and so they showed there were interactions yeah for sure so there must have been a
00:54:37
Speaker
kind of convivial enough with each other at some stages, and especially if these people were bringing in oranges. I mean, if if you've never seen an orange before in your life, that would have been like, OK, great. Oh, is there any evidence that there was a lot of kind of political strife in Connemara that
Political Awareness in 1800s Connemara
00:54:54
Speaker
time? that There was a lot of political knowledge about what was going on both in the national context and the international context. Or were they just, I don't really care. I'm just trying to get my harvest in. I'm just trying to look after me on Do you think there was a much of that larger political picture involved in the local people there? I don't believe so. These were a harsh enough times. yeah You know, these were during famine types. Famine would be coming and going, although it wouldn't be the worst famine. Yeah, we we we normally
00:55:26
Speaker
I always thought the family started nailing 45, but... Yeah, and it happened before that. The smaller plants, blight, would be seeding. Although on the west coast they had the the source of the sea as well. and There's plenty of lakes, you know fishing and so on, but potato was the main crop. and Even oh Ireland exported a lot of other grades and so on potato was the main staple of the diet during this time that because of such fas
00:55:58
Speaker
had a devastating effect immigration those main reason a repagration to the states to find a wealth and obviously there was during war times fear war people want to stay here but they don want go somewhere else so just looking for a better life, much like many of the immigrants today, just looking for a better life. it's kind of It seems to be a large part of just what humans do. So when you tell stories or when you bring archaeological evidence together and you have some written accounts, there's still an amount of gap filling that has to be done to tell a kind of story about these towers at that time.
00:56:46
Speaker
Where do you get the information to fill these gaps or how do you go about that? that that's a That's a question and a half. The sources can come from any sources. for For the interior lab workings at the tower, it was mostly made up timber and copper nails so the boats at so but causes sp just hard ne and there would have been staircases golden from about the top
00:57:17
Speaker
and wouldt had would have been storage for if they were under siege or under attack so they would have water tanks at the bottom they wouldn't go thirsty. So he'd just basically be putting two and two together like it? For the most part, he had previous works but to find that you'd have to go into British records because there wasn't enough at the Irish unless it was recorded in second-hand sources and newspapers from certain areas. There are historical accounts
00:57:54
Speaker
many second-hand sources and then obviously fieldwork is key, recording, looking, having a feel for the land, looking at the landscape. So searching key questions that weren't recorded before were landing places. Where were the landing places if they took in the stone such as from the galway workersers they have a little harboor where they put smallerable thats second go to local harbor like in Brussels from the tower to the harbour, they must have. Where was the military ward? Where did the stone come from? And until you walk the land and have a look, take your measurements and have an educated guess, yeah you don't ask these questions. And sometimes, archaeology can be proven wrong until years afterwards, yeah until a new enlightenment comes in. So so i guess I guess a lot of it is kind of
00:58:50
Speaker
and placing yourself back in that situation and thinking, well, what would I do as a human need and what would how would I get a boat? doing this, building this, or finding water or whatever it is to fill the gap, I guess it's just what would I do in that situation? Yes, I would use an every information you can, such as the material remains, which is key in archaeology, but you also use the historical, but you can't always trust your historical, because sometimes the archaeology will prove the historical questions wrong, or prove them right.
00:59:24
Speaker
yeah yeah The locals back in that time, around 1800 in Connemara, I don't want to keep going back to it, but I'm fascinated at trying to try to figure out what life would have been like back then. What would their everyday lives have been like? You mentioned they lived in patch colleges. What would their religious practices be? What would their diet be? What kind of clothes would they wear? What would their pastimes be?
00:59:54
Speaker
Can you paint a picture of what life might have been like for somebody back then? So children, they would have some education, but not too much, maybe 12 years old. and then Where would they get the education? Normally in their local parish. Okay. But this was during the Pina Laws. Okay. So what are they? Pina Laws is a punishment made from the English parliament to put on Catholics. So it's basically denying them human rights, such as religion
01:00:26
Speaker
cultural beliefs and so on. And this is a way where the Protestants wanted to control the Catholics and to give most of the wealth to the Protestants, which were more loyal to the Parliament of England during that time. OK, so hold on a second now. I talked about William of Orange coming across from Holland, and it was called the Glorious Revolution or the Physical Revolution, as I like to call it.
01:00:55
Speaker
And it was called that because it was apparently bloodless. Now that's English sources telling me that is that. Is that what happened this side of the sea? No. No. Of course not.
Penal Laws and Catholic Rights in Ireland
01:01:07
Speaker
So lads, culture, everything was taken from people. Probably the wealthier kind Catholic people were given lads in poor areas such as are less desirable areas such as car and maybe parcivals but at the so But the English took over a more prosperous land, so they can give it to prospects.
01:01:37
Speaker
which would then fuel their army for expedition so a lot of great instead of having maybe five tens farmers in one thing this was given to a lord it was cleared ready for growth and such a large scale for during the industrial revolution had effects on the large.
01:01:58
Speaker
had dead irish people are more re light on the plate there ever were because they could only grow it on a small patch, and which would have fed that easily. Also the kind of the larger amounts of food that were grown and the cattle and and all that stuff grown in more fertile land and and as you said, larger plots that would have been exported to feed the English and the armies that they had around the world. And we were allowed to grow our spuds and small allotments.
01:02:31
Speaker
And we probably didn't even own that land. It was just... During the penal laws, if you're a Catholic, you weren't allowed to own land. You weren't allowed to own land. No, you weren't allowed to practice your Catholic you know catholic religion was penalized. oh this is the I hear stories where they used to go to the top of mountains for mass. Yeah, the mass rocks. The priest would always have his back to the parish because you want to recognize their face
01:03:02
Speaker
oh wow So he'd send Mass with his back to her so that even if he was ever captured and tortured, he wouldn't be able to tell who went to Mass. Wow. Wow. That must like that must have been a hard time to live in and and a hard her boss to have the English back then. And then to have these guys in the towers and still be able to to kind of communicate and and and have the odd party with them. I suppose they still had the oranges. That was the main thing.
01:03:32
Speaker
But there what the do you think, how did the communication between the people in the towers and the locals happen? I mean, there was different there was a language barrier there. There was. There was usually one person in the parish that would either have some English or they would have someone to communicate. Okay. Or probably an English that had some Irish. Yeah.
01:03:56
Speaker
because a lot of soldiers were probably second third generation because emigration was happening for long before these towers and the British Army would have taken anyone that will give their allegiance or change their religion if they chose to join the army because they were short of men. So many Irish fought for the English, is that? Yes, so i like I was saying, there would have been an Irish regiment in
01:04:30
Speaker
i of the english add the french okay and a lot of irish people joined the british army saying they were protest but they were at sea, Catholic, and then later joined the United Irishmen to train more soldiers. so they'd go to the English, learn how the fighting was done in military style, and then they'd come back with the knowledge and have training. Yeah, some Some others would just join it for a better better living standard. Better chances of life, I guess. More income.
01:05:00
Speaker
This brings to mind a very recent event here in Ireland, which happened yesterday in Dublin, which was England played Ireland in the soccer, in the football. And two people scored for England. One was named Jack Grealish. And Declan Rice. And Declan Rice both played senior football for Ireland at some stage or another. And changed their allegiance. Has changed allegiance as they wanted better opportunities.
01:05:30
Speaker
I've played for England and ended up scoring against there. More fame and glory. and More fame and glory, yeah yeah yeah. But we won't go into that, but it just shows the bite is still there a little bit in Ireland when when it comes to these things. gen Even to this day there's a lot of Irish people with relations in England, I'm very sure so. So for the most part the common person would be
01:05:58
Speaker
wouldn't have that much hatred to one another. yeah But it's the it's the powers to be that set the rules and you have to remember the pen laws always affect the irish islam language culture and weren'ret able to practice this and any children who wanted education would have to go to a protestant school Okay, so even the education that we get was was Protestant, it wasn't a kind of yes homegrown education, so. And this led a lot of Protestants in Ireland to form the United Irishmen, such as Waltham, and a lot of the more elite officers gained the rebellions that came before and after were Protestants, but that wanted to better the cause for Irish Catholics.
01:06:49
Speaker
Well, that's interesting interesting. That really shows a bit of a, I guess it shows a kindness amongst the Protestants, but it also shows how harsh the Catholics were being treated for when even the Protestants said, ah, this is this is not on. And you mentioned Wolftown again there. hu Did I hear Wolftown killed himself? He committed suicide after he got captured?
01:07:14
Speaker
Well, he he was caught atto on a ship off the west coast of Donegar in 1798, and he was tried and convicted of treason. Now, he wanted a soldier's debt, as he stated, he was an officer in the French army. He wanted a debt by shooting.
01:07:35
Speaker
But the British deny this. He said, you'll die for treason and that's hanging. okay So the the day before it's hanging, he was found in the cell with a big gash.
01:07:48
Speaker
warmned upon his neck which hed later died from Now, the story goes, he gives a speech after the doctor fixes him up. The doctor says, if you try to talk, you will kill yourself because it will open the wound again. And he gave a speech and to say, I couldn't wish for anything more such as that.
01:08:12
Speaker
Speech was longer, I don't remember the whole verse. However romantic notion, the doctor says if you talk you'll die and he used his, he didn't give a speech. Oh brave man, brave man. and Yeah, it's it's no wonder he's so he's so well known throughout Irish history.
01:08:35
Speaker
You talk about these signal towers and I guess they're the signal towers where you light a flame in one and then the message travels around as they all light up. So if a flame lit in Donegal, would that travel the whole way around the coast of the country then? No, the signal towers are slightly different. now They would have used fire but only in direct stream weather.
01:09:00
Speaker
So what happened was there would have been a mast outside the tower and they would have three different flags and these would be called messages. So one tower could signal to the other tower. There were usually a kilometer, maybe a kilometer and a half, depending on visibility, land and so on. yeah And these messages would pass down.
01:09:22
Speaker
But they could also operate signals from ship after course if they wanted to. And they change the signals every time because sometimes the codes were broken. Because they use these signals in other places as well. okay So this would have been the broadband of the time. The broadband of the time. From Allenhead to Dublin, it would have taken an almost three and a half hours for the signals to catch on depending on the left of the message. Actually you're driving now.
01:09:51
Speaker
na team now did that Did they ever get flamed up? Like were were they were they used to communicate a lot? There were there would have been for daily reports and so on. For daily reports would have been going through these towers? Yes. I can't imagine like the segment would have been much more than all good.
01:10:10
Speaker
Something like that. Something like that. Just a simple kind of thumbs up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you enjoy your work, frankly, looking into these towers and finding out more about these elements of the landscape that you'd notice since you we were young? Of course, yes. It gives me a better understanding. Yeah. And even I found the district in the Russell everything that's around it. Although I do recognize a lot of the names. But it shows, it's usually young teenagers that go up there, write their name, was here or 97 or 2000 or whatever it is. But it shows you it's the Irish teenagers want to have a bit of ownership of the land as well. Go to this place to which was a former British fortification. yeah
01:10:58
Speaker
and putting their name on it. It's like reclaiming the land back or reclaiming this fort as part of their own. So like a rite of passage for younger people. And I found that interesting as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And are all these towers still there? No. and Some of the Martello Towers that were destroyed. spoo there were a lot but There was a lot more concentration in Dublin because of development chicken down
01:11:29
Speaker
like The most famous one is the James Joyce Motelotaur, where he wrote Ulysses. okay and That's the museum to James Joyce now. and It's well worth a visit if anyone wants to go there. okay That's a doublet. That's a doublet. But the strange one is to the cannon that's the Tapura Seville is the only one that still has its original cannon, Motel.
01:11:57
Speaker
Really? all All the other ones were taken, either replaced, left down for scrap, but they didn't have the effort or didn't have the logistics to work the landscape there to remove the tower, the cannon off the tower. Yeah, I'd imagine it'd be a big job. I'm just thinking that if it takes eight people to drive this, you're going to take a lot of people to take a down off the tower and be a lot of work.
01:12:24
Speaker
you talking about five tones a pure metal yeah yeah but It also be very useful yeah know ought to be very useful, all that metal wouldn't it? What kind of impact do you think these towers, the people that manned them, had on the landscape and the culture in Connemara in particular? Well, you can find, although at the time it was against army law or British regulations for and local soldiers to fraize
01:12:56
Speaker
or marry locals which were arbitrly catholic But you can still see a lot of names in areas where these towers are from a glitch of origins. Particularly where these towers are. and and So after the war, after they were retired, I'm sure some of them settled. They probably were here for years.
01:13:22
Speaker
had probably had children an offspring which probably later they only able to after they weren't practical arabing anymore yeah Would there have been, like a like you said, a lot of the names remained around for these towers? what Would there have been an outbreak of the English language will say around these areas? Of course, yes. yeah you have to You have to believe as well there was a lot of immigration during this period. there was so apparently The were probably in certain parts of these, the larger community parts.
01:14:01
Speaker
and there if if you had no other ways of commic communication But in English, of course, that would have picked up. And I suppose English, if if you were going to leave Ireland, if you were planning to emigrate,
01:14:16
Speaker
English would be a very handy language to know, especially if you were going across the Atlantic to America, being that it was the main language of America. I think it was think was actually back around this time too. America had a vote as to what its national language would be, German or English. I often wonder how much of a different world it might be if they had chosen German. But same if you go back earlier in English, in in could it been easily french or english
01:14:47
Speaker
really because the hierarchy at that time spoke mostly french at english came from all dutch so that would have been more common language Yeah. And it was slowly replaced later on in courts and so on, from French to English. Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that.
Language, Culture, and Identity
01:15:09
Speaker
So your language is so, it's so important and we seem to have like, we're living well in the English speaking world now, where it is the kind of ubiquitous language across much of the world.
01:15:22
Speaker
How important is language to a place, to a culture, to an identity do you think? I think it's hugely important, especially here in Ireland, although yeah if you find the irish names i can give you a lot of reformation so e people were such name like do cor but yeah so car meaning that locally river and don't mean fort so that tells you straight away there was a fort around there i didn't know that i know the estate he's talking about the place kind of caravan never knew that's what it meant it's the fort on the car over yes so it probably would have been a ring fort an earthen ring fort knowing the geography around that place and that that tells you straight away and
01:16:11
Speaker
da In Irish there's around 40 names for hit a hill, some croc and It can tell you so much, and it'll although a lot of the names are anglicised. It doesn't give you too much information. But the Irish names, because it's so old and it's so linked with the land itself, yeah it can give you a lot of information.
01:16:37
Speaker
yeah That's something I wanted to ask you about, actually, the link in the Irish language with the land, the landscape of Ireland. When we moved to the English language, no, I'm talking about us, Frankie, us townies here. yes not Not like yourself. You still speak the Gaelic every day, which I'm jealous of, in a Paris that I don't. But by taking on the English language,
01:17:03
Speaker
Did we kind of uncouple ourselves from the land itself? in In that when we talk to each other in the Irish language, so many of the words are linked with the land. Whereas in the British language, it's not so much to kind of more linked with abstract concepts. And a lot of the Irish mythology is very interlinked with the land and the fairies and the fairy forts and the stories. So I wonder, by taking on the English language,
01:17:33
Speaker
how much we brought our identity. Okay, we we brought it into a larger mainstream, allows more connection with with with the larger world. But I wonder how much of our identity we took away from the land at that time. Well, probably we did lose a lot. We probably lost stuff that we'll never probably get back.
01:17:55
Speaker
But i do I think a lot of it has been brought it into the English okay in certain ways, yeah but that only came a lot later after the Irish Independent because there was a huge push. Like you said, through the mythology, when Irish got into independence, it was taken from older things because they didn't want to relate to the castles or fortifications or anything. the english had to do about it they went back and there was a huge search and even to this day there's a lot of research and interest in those but such a stark history such as what the English were doing is not given although slightly turning out but it wasn't given as much as tension but you can you can probably see it for himself you how many times have you passed the post box in the college here the university here go
01:18:52
Speaker
yeah many times. And did you ever notice anything from it? I actually have never noticed anything about it. Right. If you look at it closely, it has the crown, the English crown on it, because it was originally the Queen's College. Okay. And if you look at underneath the green paint, it's red. Wow. So it was the thing that they don't, they didn't replace the letterbox, they just painted it over green to mark it all. It's Irish now.
01:19:19
Speaker
Wow. Actually, that that reminds me of the movie, The Banshees are going to Sharon. I think it was a subtle way of telling the story of the time as well. There was a red false box in it and they were in the process of painting it green. So I guess that was another way of telling the story of what was happening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think language is hugely, hugely important.
01:19:45
Speaker
You recently presented a TV show, Frankie, which was based around language, in the Irish language, really, and you traced your second name, O'Connor, and you found out some interesting things about that. Tell us about that. Yeah, so we started the program by looking into my own family history. and although I knew the genealogy for the most part, but it was proven that it was all correct, which other relatives of my family were able to piece together. And then we found out that the the home where my my father grew up, the cottage, was in the family for 200 years. two hundred years while that So like what we're talking about, this is at the end, you know, when
01:20:37
Speaker
after penal loss when went
01:20:41
Speaker
Okay. So they took it from one of the emerging families, the Lynches in Galway. Oh, they're known well. Yes. And that's who my family brought. So when they were allowed buy their land back that's been in the family ever since and they bought the land back of the lynch yes for anyone who doesn't know Lynch's Castle in Galway is now an AIB bank, but it's famous because, was it his son that he hung out the window? Yes. And that became the first ever lynching. So yeah, that's that's that's not a very...
01:21:19
Speaker
proud phrase. The Galway got into the world, but it's where lynching started. One of the famous 14 tribes of Galway. One of the famous 14 tribes and the the lynch family. But now tell us more about your search into your name. we different So they obviously wanted to link with archaeology because O'Conners, the were the O'Conners. When would that have been? That would have been
High Kings of Ireland and the O'Connor Family
01:21:49
Speaker
I try to remember now the date.
01:21:55
Speaker
We're trying to think 14th or 13th century. Okay, okay. that Do you think that will do? It's longer, is it? No, it must be longer. Way back, anyway. Way back. yes i it's It's there anyway, so Rory and Tula Haqqana were the last high kings of Ireland. During this time, there was no such thing as high kings of Ireland. That was a completely modern made-up stuff. so So there was no United Ireland kind of... Yes and no. So the way it work i let go the way it worked was things there were kings various factions. so there was a local king then a provincial king then the king that was in charge of the entire
01:22:40
Speaker
profits and so on and you know how we say cookhanta cookkemon you know's a preventionist but cool yeah So there were five provinces originally, and it was the other parvents, but now that's joining to the let's journey. So another reason why the language is important, that gives you a clue straight away of what the geography was a bit different during that time. So borders weren't Yes, the same as they are now. Now what they refer to as high kings, that was the most powerful king. So if there was a dispute between two kings, or maybe even the provisional kings, the higher would be the judge. So he would have been charged. So he wouldn't have been in charge of the whole of Ireland, but he might have been the most powerful man in the whole of Ireland.
01:23:30
Speaker
he would have the final word okay so but get there as many kings such as that, at the last two were from conduct. So that family kind of branched off, so they were counted down. They were counted down, as they called them now, but it means brow down and car ofro right so ru So it was red counter and brown counter. Yes. They were part of the same family originally, but they had it falling out. Okay. The counter Rua died off. Okay. And Raccoon, which the famous mythology where the town sets out where Queen Maeve goes to steal the bowl of Cooley. Okay. That would have been the area where the O'Conners would have been settled.
01:24:25
Speaker
because that would have been the most fertile place in Galway during that time. Oh, right. So it was the best land. Best land. And that's why the high seat or organization seats are there set in that that place. And we traced, we went back and found out that most O'Conners in Connacht, unless they came from other parts of Ireland, would have been part of the O'Conner Dal family. Right. And the O'Conner name comes from cook con after hundred battles or conicates
01:24:57
Speaker
okay and a lot of genealogy from you know later kings would tried to and linked their head heritage to that to give them more prestige. okay So O'Connor, maybe up in the north of Ireland, would have no relation but would still call themselves O'Connor for complicating. Oh, because they tried to link themselves back to this case. Yes, and that common practice during the period, Nile without Nile hostages, and so many others. And so so just there's a lot of names. to connna ten There's there's Connelly, which is on the mother's side of my own family, Connelly, O'Connor, your own name, all these names that have come in Ireland,
01:25:44
Speaker
could have been originally a branch of the Conakita, yes. other At least trying to trace themselves back to there. If they were going to make up a name, they were going to be like, it's going to be the kings. Yes. Okay. That's very interesting. what did you where did Where did you land then with your name?
01:26:03
Speaker
My name, so we were able to go back to the original purchase of the cartridge in Berna and so 200 years and then we were able to find that a lot of the O'Connor's branched out from other parts of Connacht and there we have a strong connection that we could be related to the O'Connor dogs but we're not going but there but for my yeah dissertation or thesis, he's the half-brother after O'Connor Don, who's now living in England. Well, that is such a link. And he's now living in England. Yes. OK, the links go on in Ireland and England. Well, I'm i wondering if we're even a different place. Yes. Yeah. And
01:26:52
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's it that's cool. Did you enjoy that dress and your name back there? You must have got a huge amount of information. Yeah, the interesting part, even during the 18th century, without Connors Arts, there were one of the very lucky families, classic families, to able to hold on to their estates. Okay. That's how powerful they were, even later off.
01:27:14
Speaker
me try And this was it during the pain laws and all this? Because they slowly married to different parts of merchant families. And they would have remained Catholic, but they would also have Protestants married into the family for protection. They hedged their bets. Yes. I'm sure there was a lot of that going on back then. Of course there was.
01:27:41
Speaker
People tend to do that naturally anyways, don't they? You know, if you can find a way to have an easier life, most most people move towards that. Yes, you know, it is. It is. That's to say that you look for the road frontage. You look for the road frontage. In Ireland, that's often a question asked on the first days. Do you have road frontage? but but Yeah, I suppose we take land seriously here because it wasn't always our own. No, there's long parts where we couldn't control it and that's why
01:28:12
Speaker
morning lad or on your own house here nowland it's yes such a huge milestone in any Irish person's life. Yeah, and but you know lots of what I find strange is that I'm not strange, but interesting, I guess. Like the the idea of private property that we have now came through thinkers like John Locke in England. Do you know what I mean? and and And his idea was that basically everybody owns their body. We can be pretty sure of that because you can't be thrown out of your body.
01:28:44
Speaker
so If you go to work on something and you mix your labor with that something, then that becomes basically part of your body, part of your ownership. So back then we wouldn't have said, I own that.
01:29:00
Speaker
would have said i have ownership in that so because we had put a piece of ourself into it. Of course, that's changed now, and all you have to do is buy stuff for transactional money. But the idea of private property basically and standardizing it and making it into holidays today came from John Locke. And I'm sure during that period, that's sources would have been the likes of both Tom, would be called upon when he's trying to get armies from the French or troops or supplies
01:29:33
Speaker
and they were both contemporary at the time yeah would have pulled pulled that to were to aid his cause. Absolutely. Yeah. It would have been the arguments from these people, from from like arguments that could be sourced in England that we used to argue for our own human rights here and for religious toleration. Yeah. And know I find that very interesting. I mean, like the the democracy that kind of started at that time in England
01:30:06
Speaker
The fiscal revolution kicked off in America, found another wave of it in in France. That's the same thing we argued that we wanted here. And it wasn't that that was here and got taken away from us.
01:30:20
Speaker
That was never here, that type of democracy. Like we lived in tribal ways, like you're saying, under kings. And I don't think the people owned their land under the king, under those kings. Because you have to think about the 13th century, that's only when surnames come in. So you're the family of. So this is how surnames came to be. So you're the son of.
01:30:44
Speaker
you know let's say your con so have con it was only later even later on it was only the larger families that use surnames. Okay. And that the land belonged to tribal. So there could be three generations. So grandfather, son and grandson would have been probably living in the same house. Yeah. And that whoever was the hierarchy during that period would have been responsible to either pay the bills or have their value
01:31:20
Speaker
<unk> because there would it would be face value. So this is where face value comes out. So depending on where your status is in the community, you would be let's say equivalent of let's say four milch cows. yeah So that's how the currency starts.
01:31:41
Speaker
but a kid could be a hundred mill car sorry if If one person insulted another, depending on the face value, you would have to pay that. Or your entire kinship would have to pay that. Oh, so let's say if I insulted you and at the time you were low-born or whatever and you were only worth a chicken. Then if I could insult you all I'd want, I'd just have to pay a chicken. yes But if I insulted you and you were higher up in the hierarchy and we'd say you were the leader of your clan and I insulted you and you were worth 10 cows, yes then I had to go and find 10 cows to pay. Your kid would have to pay the 10 cows. Or you would have paid
01:32:31
Speaker
moved out of the Tu'a are punished, but he usually moved exiled out of your Tu'a. What's Tu'a mean? Tu'a means you're the kingdom. So so there would have been hundreds of kingdoms to us during during this period and that's how at the regional king, there would have been a king at Tu'a and then it would go up to regional or county and then my provisional and then the high king and so on.
01:32:57
Speaker
So the king would actually move you out of the tour at the minute you're outside the tour. You have no rights. You have no wealth. You're bottom of the ladder, even a slave. and And so, okay. So I'm just trying to bring individual rights and human rights in here now. You only had rights as a member of a clan. Yes. And your rights were as were assigned according to but what the clan as a whole was worth and what your place in that clan was. yes so that would So there was no real individual rights or even idea of the individual freedom rights. There was to a certain degree. okay
01:33:38
Speaker
but In other degrees, no. Because the Ireland was so fractured, there were so many tours and kingdoms and so on. Within the kingdoms, they prospered because they they just worked together and did the lab, yeah but it was only in the tour you had to his rights once you left your god and so if you went to like up the country to another tour you were with nothing up there you could be no like if somebody insulted you when you were up there it didn't matter a damn thing you they didn't even have to pay your chicken not even the chicken's egg unless you were there officially yeah you know as a member of now certain certain you know if you're a priest you were allowed to mix between two us
01:34:23
Speaker
poor andness they were yeah bats at a very big position in this time, didn't they? Yeah, because they would sing, you know, pray songs and stuff for the king, but if the king didn't treat them well, they would satire as a king. the king had to keep on the good side of the poets. Yes, and if the if they saturised him in another kingdom, that would be a huge insult for the other king. Oh, that's really a common interview now, because I've heard for a long time how
01:34:54
Speaker
how high of a standing poets had in Ireland at one time. Poets would have the same rights as a king. So because so if a poet or a barad is visiting your village, then everybody in the village made sure to treat them well so that the songs he'd be singing in the next village about your village yeah would be good ones. Well, Jesus, I imagine there was a lot of fat poets going around Ireland. I didn't believe they were.
01:35:23
Speaker
Okay. that the The times we were talking about mostly here, it's around 1800. This would have been long before this. Yeah. So I'm just thinking that that's about 220 years ago, give or take. So if we go back, like the Ireland of now and the Ireland of 220 years ago are vastly different, hugely different and in many ways, language, lifestyle, technology. I mean, in my lifetime,
01:35:52
Speaker
I have noticed a difference of youngsters coming out of Connemara that they could be coming from New York because of their accent, or they could be coming from anywhere, because there seems to be emerging of accents for losing our regional accents, and not only dialects, but just ways of speaking. but that so So there's been huge change, and not to mention technology and advancements and all that.
01:36:16
Speaker
So if we say we go back 220 years from 1800 to 1580, how big of a difference would they have seen from 1580 to 1800? Wouldn't it have been as big as the difference we see from 1800 to 2020?
01:36:36
Speaker
For the most part, no. Obviously, technology, this is the industrial revolution, the Doris technology. being hugely no there would have been more regional obviously But there the changes would have been slower and slower the further you go back. Okay. Yeah. No, it seems from the industrial revolution, the the the pace of change is faster and faster and faster. it Just got steroids. Yes. Now, language-wise, it would have been hugely different. We wouldn't be able to understand each other language-wise, no. Even would like a yourself, a gay speaker from Connemara, if you went back to 1580, would you have been able to understand it would have been like a completely different language wow how they spoke narrative Now, keywords like mother, father, you know, keywords, we probably would. But you have to think even going back before they mentioned the typewriter, yeah the Irish had their own alphabet, never mind, you know, a language and so on. We had our own alphabet. Yes. Okay. What was that like? So if you look at, let's say,
01:37:44
Speaker
the pubs in Ireland. You'll also have a T, but you see the fancy T. I do. Yes. So that would have been the T in the Irish alphabet. But if you've seen a dot above it, that was a TH. The R's were slightly, sometimes you see the Irish language and the R's not within the lines, such as the thing. That would give you a different meaning.
01:38:08
Speaker
and then phonetically they announced them differently. Was it based on, like we used the T differently or put a dot above it, but was it still based on the same letters that we have? Yes, it was just because, since they mentioned the typewriter for mass production stuff, the Irish moved to the English alphabet, which made it easier. And I suppose, like like you said, the invention of the typewriter means that everything wasn't handwritten, so you couldn't be as specific because you only had what was on the typewriter. You could put dots above this one, and yeah, okay, yeah, it's standardized. But that's why, although the Irish would use the English alphabet, if we don't use all the letters.
01:38:51
Speaker
yeah okay what letters z does no z no q i'm trying to think of letters i have no yeah use certain letters no q is rarely used but it's there okay uh there you know x x is not there because it's not needed although you know future past and present is
01:39:16
Speaker
of Ireland is completely different. So it's not future, past and present in the Irish language? No, there's six. I know you're looking at me with shame and i'm a shot i'm I'm ashamed of this too, Frankie. i know so I'm not rich at this subject, no. yeah You speak it, that's how you don't know that. yeah yeah But depending on how you use the words. Yeah, know yeah the words are just the because like the Romance language, the Latin languages, you know, you're you're Spanish, Latin and so on.
01:39:47
Speaker
Irish Spanish French and so on came from Latin source but the Irish language is the P Celtic Q Celtic so those are the six still spoken languages so you have the Irish Scots Gaelic and Manx which is either man okay and then the Welsh britanic and carnish or the the other tree languages. The three Celtic languages. The two are the phonetically different. So that's why if you look at the Welsh words or names, it looks so strange. It absolutely does. And they are so long. yeah and theses are
01:40:30
Speaker
linear lamp thought all the las came from the islet of ireland or britain when but the british were britannics before saxons and nor yeah vikings and so on changed everything yeah and Britannic, although it's in France, Brittany, that's a derivative of Wales. So after, you know, Gaulish and everything, the Roman Empire removed all the language, Welsh people settled in Britannia and that's where Britannic language comes from. So the two languages are quite similar. i And such as the Scots Gaelic. So that's the language came from Irish. So if you look at sources like the Greeks, the Romans,
01:41:11
Speaker
they call the irishka that's the name that the historians would have given from them before and that's because the Irish made a Scotland. Okay. And they took the Irish language with them. We did not, did they? We were added to them, right? That goes back even in the Taal Bechul in the book, which Colin Bannis, the saint, was the peacemaker between the two saints. He was part of the Dal reader. The Dal reader were forced up and they didn't have
Scots Gaelic vs. Irish Languages
01:41:45
Speaker
anywhere to go to evade more lands or prosperous lands. So they went to the islands, Iona and so on. And then they entered the west coast of that land and slowly became more trilleries over generations. While at the other, there were Britannic languages spoken, stark pride and such. There were Platonic languages being, thick but they kind of died off because the pitish were the other word. That's a mother.
01:42:14
Speaker
difficult people to place, but they eventually intermarried. take became at scotland bad that's where the you see a lot ofdentities and cultures and so on in Scotland and Ireland. Yeah, that they mix. And and would if you were talking to somebody now in Scotch Gaelic, would you understand them? Would they understand you? you're Not too much. You will be able to pick up
01:42:46
Speaker
a few words, but not as much because they derived in different ways. So it's a different, like a really strong dialect. And Donnie Gall, for those that don't know, is about halfway between here and Edinburgh.
01:43:02
Speaker
would they be closer to the scotch Gaelic? So it does kind of geographically it moves together. So how a person from Connemara would say Fáin Núamath, so wait a minute, yeah a person from Donegal Fáin Bómice. Okay. So you you can say now we'll be able to understand perfectly that Donegal Irish, the song accents not too strong yes he would know yeah that's a problem even in English yes it is yeah and the end sentence is in but which often confuses me because I'm waiting for the second half they walk off they'll say you're going down the road but and then I'm I'm waiting for both water and they're gone yeah they're fun people they love having and we would have been set but certain words they would use we wouldn't recognize a Scottish person might recognize
01:43:52
Speaker
and Then if you go down to the southern tip of our country to Cork and Curry, does it change again down there? Yes, because the the where the dialects are, they're separated, they're cut off from each other. So they have their unique stance and so on. Now, the universal language in schools and how people learn the yeah basic structure of the language is the same, but they're unique in their own ways. Okay, the regional dialects.
01:44:21
Speaker
And within regional dialects, would they have, like you mentioned, the the people who went to Scotland and that would what would the regions have aligned up with the with the tribes and the kingships and the and the peoples down there? so So it would have been a region like the one tribe would have had a certain type of Irish and the next tribe in Kerry would have had a different type of Irish. And then Cork, or am I thinking wrong in this? Well, it was basically Before the Normans act came though during the Cromwellia period, yeah before the Irish were pushed west and out, yeah the lads were controlled by land the states where you weren't allowed to do anything
01:45:05
Speaker
west coast because of a small rural they were able to still hold on to their cultural identity, their language and so on. So often you'll find those links in poor, marginal lands, right west, you know, has certain areas, and they were able to hold on to their identity a lot stronger. But before that, yeah there was English here, but they were only controlling certain points. So it's the language was spoken by almost eighty percent of the population during that period the english like
01:45:36
Speaker
irish Irish language. yes Which period are we talking there? So this is before the Cromwellian War, but then I'll see immigration and everything. that was That happened. That that suffered hugely. Peanut laws had you know problems with it. It just went down and down. Yeah. I remember you, this was many moons ago now, you sent me an article by Douglas Hyde yes about the What was it, the title that began the importance of the de-anglicisation of Ireland? Yes. And he was talking about linguistics. Linguistics. He was talking about language and he was talking about...
01:46:19
Speaker
it was really a deep read it was it not that long and somebody should go and read it if you get the chance but he was talking about how we lost our identity basically when we lost our language how not only have we taken on the English language but we've taken on the idea of good the idea of what it is to be a good person, stroke, gentleman became aspirational for Irish people who used the English language, where that wouldn't be an aspiration for people who were speaking Irish, because that wasn't what Irish people saw as good or aspirational. To give you the context. Yeah.
01:47:00
Speaker
Hyde was also a prostrate. oh here you are in part of the united irish But he was also the main person who set up the GAA. So if you ever look at Hyde's speech, yeah that's a good point of reference. of what he was what convey, but he was a huge in protecting Irish culture and identities in certain ways. But he always always thought he was betrayed English because he was originally from English ancestry, but he felt so strongly for protection of Irish identity. So he struggled with it
01:47:47
Speaker
but Yeah, he's a very interesting character for people who'd like to look up. Yeah, he sounds he sounds like a very interesting character and we have Hyde Park in Dublin named after him. him. Yeah, it's something that's frank. is this When we look back at history and the relationship between Ireland and England, is it a simple good guys and bad guys?
01:48:11
Speaker
kind of argument can we say well the English were the bad guys and they came here and they took us over and we were the good guys and that there's a kind of cartoonish version of of history that seems to be popularized now but when you talk and you talk about wolf tone and and hype being Protestant and about the interaction between the the even the English people who were men in these towers and the locals it seems way more nuanced and them. Yes. Yeah. But it's it depends who's in charge. Okay. And the question comes from that. And it depends there how much freedom do people have to be be able to speak up against those people in charge. Okay. So depends how much power the people have. Okay. So it's how much accountability the people can have on whoever's in charge. no matter what type of government if it is margaretre
01:49:07
Speaker
democracy or so on yeah so
01:49:12
Speaker
Yeah, so it's it's it's not really the people we should be looking back on because there was Irish that fought on both sides. Yes. and there serve different reasons For many different reasons.
01:49:24
Speaker
But there's the there's Protestant British that kind of fought on both sides or as well. At least that that seems to have a lot to do with trying to fight for the Irish right to its own identity, which is very... So although the English tried to aglicize the Irish in many different ways, yeah the Irish also gillicized a lot of people from the earlier Normans that was their given land.
01:49:48
Speaker
after we married into you know Gaelic chiefs or chieftains and so on. And they became you know stronger opponents for Irish identity than, let's say, other people that might go back even further. yeah And you can see that in many other disputes and fighting that took place after that.
01:50:16
Speaker
Yeah, and and even, the like you you mentioned, the lads who went off to join the British Army only to come back and train Irish troops to fight the British Army again. That's something that happened even in World War I and World War II, where, yeah, the Irish thought, oh, let's say, that with the English or against the English. Yeah, yeah yeah it's it's true. And then the Irish, I mean,
01:50:41
Speaker
We were very involved in the colonization of America too. I mean, Custer's regiment used to sing a limerick song, I forget the name of it now, gone into battle. That's what was played, so we were very much we were very much there as well.
01:51:01
Speaker
Do you think the difficulties the Irish have had with the British over time? um'm I'm coming from thoughts of a philosopher called Charles Taylor who claims that identities are built by what pushes against them. So, has our interactions with our neighbours, with the British,
01:51:26
Speaker
has that become the foundation part of the modern Irish identity. What it is to be Irish? Of course it has to be. And you have to take all parts of history into a account, not just the good bits or the interesting bits, yeah the dark bits. So there's, you know, many aspect aspects. So the manual boundaries, I'm sure you've heard about it, it's a subject. A lot of people don't talk about it. But a lot of these places where the factors was, they're used for different things. And there's no recognition of
01:51:57
Speaker
this was one of those places. People should be aware of that. Yeah. So I'm sure you've climbed Diamond Hill a couple of times. I do, I know it well. And you know where one of those, factor the bottom of that hill. then I visited the the very sad graveyard there. Yes. But there's hardly no mention of what happened there, what the people were there. It's pity because there's a lot of foot traffic there and they could they could easily do that. Yeah. Well, I have to say I'm
01:52:28
Speaker
I carried the shame, like most Irish people, about what went on here back then. And our descendants knew about it. What I'm talking about, of course, is the sexual abuse that happened to children in the Catholic-run schools run by many different daughters, and also the mother and babies' homes that Well women, unmarried women went in to have their babies and their babies were often sold or given away to other families and and the women endured hardship and the children endured hardship and as I said there was a lot of sexual abuse going on and and I do wear that shame as much as any other Irish person.
01:53:14
Speaker
But what I also wear is now a pride in how we're looking back at that. Very recently, in the past couple of weeks, there's been a report that shows how actually widespread this stuff was. And they're going to do a further investigation, however they're going to do it, to bring this out more. And I think I'm proud of Ireland looking at its history.
01:53:43
Speaker
face on. It's hard and I'm sure a lot of older people don't even want to talk about it. They don't even want to know about it, especially a lot of older Catholic people, they just don't want to know about it. But I still think we can be proud of how we're about to face it and how we're about to learn from it and how we're about to never let something like this happen in this country again. that's You know, as many people always said, history is doomed to repeat yourselves unless we learn from it yes and
01:54:14
Speaker
right think that's where we should be aiming for. To learn. Yes and we should be looking at everything and asking questions even if we don't like them or not. Exactly and perhaps they're the most important places we should be looking. We love looking at the good stories and the stories that help that identity, the fighting Irish and all these good stories but there are certainly dark ones that that that we can't ignore.
01:54:43
Speaker
You spend a lot of time frankie working in cultural events that happen around Galway and I've noticed a real change in my lifetime of how these events are portrayed. They very much seem to be ritualistically pagan now. you know We have the the different companies in Galway and they the for Halloween in particular. They make some fantastic things, full of fire and full of willow trees and and drums beaten and all that. Do you think that's a that's kind of a clearing back of our pagan heritage, pre-Christian heritage almost? Yes, and like what we're saying, were like there's a lot of animosity around
Modern Cultural Events in Galway
01:55:27
Speaker
the church. now
01:55:28
Speaker
yeah and the pagan seems like an older more traditional place although people won't adopt it as a new religion but they like the ideas from it and it gives a cleaner look to have us and identity that we're bit more I'm proud of, as you say. yeah yeah But yes, yeah, there's a lot of cultural aspects. So, you know, there's so many plays and dramas I was involved in. yeah And to even the company, although I was a part of it, the company was up there in Coldplay with the puppets and so on yeah like that. And yeah, and we had a big, you know, the summer was good for
01:56:13
Speaker
ferraliah which was a irish galician cro structure down there at the cloud which was you know a strong irish fishing vanage outside the walls where the Irish speakers were, because you weren't allowed to speak Irish within the walls that time. Oh hang on, so you go back there, an Irish Galician village where you weren't allowed to... No, no, the play was Irish Galician at the village. okay So the Claddagh village, the Claddagh village was the Irish fishermen, they go out with fishermen, but that was outside the city walls, they spoke Irish and it still has a certain Irish speaking older community but the city walls was a Protestant city so within the city you weren't allowed to speak Irish for a strong period. Wow and that's a the the man we mentioned earlier. Now, if you're in England and if you're a fan of democracy, you might hear the name Cromwell and think, oh, he was very influential in making parliamentary powers and kind of bringing the powers of the king down and the powers of a people's parliament up, and you would be right. However,
01:57:28
Speaker
some of those people who supported the King because it was King James, wasn't it? It was the Catholic King. So g later, but he so crowell the Cromwell killed Charles I, chopped his head off and no be that wouldve been his own fate later on yeah but as charles second went off to scotland where he was an exile. yeah and Ireland was, you know, they were of controlled by the English in certain degrees. The Irish and the Gaelic chiefs took back some of the lands during, you know, because it went back and forth a little bit. But the Cromwellian, this was the period where he was starting the new modern-age army war and he needed money. And this is where they took their eyes on Ireland and other countries such an African so india and so on
01:58:24
Speaker
OK. And that's when the siege began and the parliament gave him all the rights to do whatever he did. The worst atrocities were in certain parts of Ireland where the Irish fought back. OK. And the last royalist stand out in Ireland was where?
01:58:43
Speaker
the last people who supported the king against Cromwell. Yes, that's true so was Galway and they were under siege, so yeah there was a long siege and again there was Irish and English fighting on both sides. So there was Irish fighting for with Cromwell? Cromwell, yes, they had an Irish Legion and there were the general that was in charge of Galway City under the siege was an English an ex-English officer who had his own mercenaries helping the Irish. Wow. See, that's something we don't take into account. But the Galway was royal city, so they were loyal to the king. lot The gala chiefs outside the walls didn't really come to the aid of the Irish that time because they wanted to be more Irish.
01:59:36
Speaker
So back then I suppose inside the walls of Galway would have been thought of as a little bit yeah English. and To a certain degree, but it was a trading port. It was a trading city. And yes. Would that have had something to do with the the need for English inside the city that would be good for trade?
01:59:56
Speaker
Yes. yeah Well, there were Spanish, French, the, you know, they would have changed all around the continent because the sea was a high waster that's right. And there were ships coming and going from Galway to this week. Galway must have been pretty diverse. Yes. But that's the even and multicultural go on with that award. Yes. So that's why you see the the famous where the harbor is, the Spanish arch. Yeah. And you can see the Latin quarter where Galway and different houses and so on. now After the English siege, they've destroyed a lot of stuff.
02:00:35
Speaker
dog houses and stuff like that but yeah earlier the greeks the romans would say always a fit place for princes and kings because they had gardens within their houses such as lyns castle would have been surrounded and they would have a garden where it would have been places to grow a courtyard such as villas and so on like that. Yeah, and the gi there earth was canals all over the city too, there wasn't enough for transport and stuff around. Yeah, that that's fantastic. Frank, you were running out of time here. I feel like I could talk to you for a week about this, yes but but we'll leave it for now and hopefully, I'd love if if you'd be willing to come back on, if I can tell people to put any questions you might have for Frank.
02:01:23
Speaker
particularly about local Galway history, I think will be very interesting. And hopefully we can have them back on here to answer some questions. No problem. I would love to. Yeah, it'll be good. it'll be good Frank, thanks for all the work you're doing. Thanks for being so involved in the cultural renaissance that is happening in Galway at the moment.
Upcoming Festival at Garrai Glas Farm
02:01:42
Speaker
And keep up the good work and and thanks very much. No problem. And just for anyone out of interest, do you mind if I do a small plug? Please go for it. So one of my other jobs, I work on an organic commercial firm, but we're having a festival on the 28th of August, 2024, just in case someone's listening in the future. This September. September, sorry. Sorry. 28th of September. OK. So it's the end of the season of the firm and we're having live music, bands and everything
02:02:20
Speaker
and if you want any more information go to garri blas he's on facebook instagram and and so on and they'll give you more details. Okay, how do you spell Gary Glass? So, G-A-R-R-A-I father, but you don't need the father, and Glass is G. G-N-A-S. Okay, that's Gary Glass Farm on the 28th of September, guys, which isn't too far away, so get your party boots on and head out there. Okay, Frank, thanks again. Folks, remember talking is thinking, so keep on talking. Thanks very much. Bye-bye.