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11. Called to...Bad Supervision
9 Plays8 days ago
In this episode, we talk about what makes a bad supervisor and some terrible supervisory experiences we have had, as well as what we think defines good supervision.
Reminder 1: As usual, this episode is not meant for tiny ears.
Reminder 2: We recorded our first few episodes in batches, so our time context may not align with release dates.
Mentions in this Episode
Wright-Constantine Structured Cultural Interview
Lily’s & Elise Tea House, Detroit, MI
Grand America Hotel - Afternoon Tea, Salt Lake City, UT
Additional Notes
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Music: Calypsonian by Eshi Era (Standard License) Check out their Artist Profile here: Eshi Era
Recommended
Transcript
Intro
Introduction and Host Background
00:00:16
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Welcome everybody. Welcome back to another episode of called to healing. I'm I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in Nevada, and I use she, her pronouns.
00:00:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I am Dr. Ksera Dyette I'm a licensed clinical psychologist located in Massachusetts. And I also use she, her pronouns, and we acknowledge that we are both settlers on Turtle Island, and we pay respect to our ancestors and elders who have stewarded this land for generations, both past and present.
What is Bad Supervision?
00:00:49
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So... We are talking about an interesting topic today that Blanca and i have circled in a few episodes prior, which is bad supervision.
00:01:01
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And we have alluded in prior episodes, particularly our called to graduate school episodes, about bad supervisory experiences that we have both had. Yeah.
00:01:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But we've also witnessed sort of the impact of bad supervision, just in like the behavior of other clinicians as well. And um what we haven't really been clear about is like what we mean by bad supervision. i think we assume that our audience has a certain idea of what that is, um but we haven't really gotten into it. And we haven't really talked about all of the layers that we could about power and oppression and its role in sort of the proliferation of bad supervision, as well as the, what's the word I'm looking for?
00:01:55
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Pervasiveness of it.
00:01:57
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm-hmm.
00:01:59
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And um I wanna make sure though, before we get into that conversation, that we contextually locate ourselves with respect to this topic, but also what we mean.
00:02:12
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
what we mean um what we each the individually mean when we say bad supervision. um So let's first talk about context.
Blanca's Supervision Journey
00:02:21
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um Blanca, obviously, I know you've been supervised because you've been in training, but have you ever been a supervisor? And what is your relationship to supervision in that regard?
00:02:35
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah. So, yes, I have been very thoroughly supervised, as I have to be in order to get my license. But um I am not currently a supervisor. And when I was in gra grad school, I would have told you that I cannot wait to become a supervisor because different supervision styles...
00:02:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
let's just leave it at styles for now, um I think is really important. But now that I'm about a year into my full licensing and five years into practicing, I no longer want to be a supervisor.
00:03:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um and one of those, there's a couple of reasons for that, but I just, I don't necessarily want the added liability.
00:03:24
Blanca Torres, LMFT
that comes with supervisions. I do want to honor that, that our supervisors do take on a liability. They, we are allowed to work under their license, but beyond that, um, I am, I want my work to support me financially so that I can lead the life that I want outside of work.
00:03:46
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And I personally, personally don't feel like I can set a price for, for supervision that is accessible and ethical and also maintain the life that I want.
00:04:00
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So as of right now, it could change. As of right now, i'm not really interested in being a supervisor, at least not a primary one, potentially a secondary one. I don't know. Is that a language that is used in your field as well, Ksera Yeah. So should we explain it a little bit?
00:04:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, yeah. yeah
00:04:16
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah. So your primary supervision is the person whose license you work under. If you were to make some kind of mistake um or there should be issues, it's your super primary supervisor's license that is on the line.
00:04:32
Blanca Torres, LMFT
A secondary supervisor is just another supervisor you see that is not as much, um doesn't have as much liability. And you usually do groups, at least in my experience with primary, I would have individual time plus group time.
00:04:50
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And with a secondary, it was exclusively group supervision. um So I might be open to being a secondary supervisor at some point, but not right now. ah What about you, Ksera Are you a supervisor? Are you supervising right now?
Dr. Kassara’s Supervision Approach
00:05:03
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, um i am. and I have questions that I didn't plan to ask you um just about the business-y part of that that you mentioned.
00:05:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:05:17
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:05:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So I'm like, do I answer and then come back to that? But but um maybe I'll answer first. I supervise testing, psychological assessment largely, um but I do provide some off-the-cuff clinical supervision.
00:05:35
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I say that because um in the agency where I'm contracted, um I will usually supervise our postdoctoral fellows, um, but also staff will come to me with questions and things like that.
00:05:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, and, but also I'm the person who people tend to come to when they might be having supervisor experiences that aren't meeting their needs.
00:06:02
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And they're like, Hey, Dr. Dyette like, can I talk to you about this? I find that I'm often
Supervision Liability Concerns
00:06:07
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
in that role well.
00:06:10
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I enjoy supervising,
00:06:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
but I don't do it in my private practice. I offer case consultation in my practice, and that has nothing to do with money.
00:06:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
It is strictly about liability. um So I'm still liable in the agency work, but the structure of that just feels like a little bit more of a holding environment for me.
00:06:40
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, whereas in my practice, it definitely feels like much more on your own. Um, and I'm much more comfortable providing testing supervision. Um, again, not that clinical issues don't arise in that regard, but, um, yeah, so I've made some decisions about what I feel comfortable with, um, and with my health issues as well.
00:07:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
In my private practice, that's just not something that feels sustainable for me to do somebody like depending on me for an extended period when I know that I am not always well enough to be able to fulfill that role.
00:07:23
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And that doesn't mean that you can't have like chronic health issues or anything like that. and not be a supervisor. Like, that's not the message. It's just that that's what I've chosen for me constitutionally um to feel okay in my practice.
00:07:39
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um
00:07:40
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So that's kind of my current situation. um But tell me a little bit more about this statement about the money part.
Cost and Accessibility of Supervision
00:07:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Because I had so many questions.
00:07:53
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Because, you know, a girl, I'm always coaching. Yeah.
00:07:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I know you are, you really are.
00:07:57
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um Well, when I was a state intern, so this is, and I know it's different state to state, so a little bit of background is once I graduated from my training program, I got a preliminary license that in the state of Nevada is a state intern license.
00:08:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um And that means you're working under the supervision of a licensed marriage and family therapist, who's, um, uh, has got liability, who's liable for your work.
00:08:31
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Um, and again, also a secondary. And during that time I was spending roughly $500 a month on supervision, which was for me. and And I want to first, before I say what I was going to say, let me say something before I say what I was about to say,
00:08:49
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I was in a pretty privileged position, Because i was still working my office job. And I could more or less afford those $500 a month.
00:09:00
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But i it was um very, very expensive for a therapist that is just starting out. And I do believe that if you're working under someone's license, that kind of compensation, I think, is fair.
00:09:16
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Like, I don't think I was being exploited in any way, shape, or form. I think it was reasonable to charge that amount. And I just cannot see myself putting someone through that kind of expense and maintain my income.
00:09:38
Blanca Torres, LMFT
yeah So that's kind of where that comes from. Sorry, I got a little messy there, but did I answer your question?
00:09:42
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, you did. i was just curious, because like, you know, when I'm coaching clinicians, um, about setting up certain aspects of their practice, there can sometimes be like an all or nothing approach to thinking about some of these things.
00:09:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I was literally, um just before I went away, um i um I went on a trip recently. Y'all don't know that. But I was having this conversation with a client of mine.
00:10:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um and there was this sense of like, well, I can't at all. And I'm like, well, is it something that you want to do? and I'm like, well, what would it look like to set up your practice in a way so that that works for both parties?
00:10:23
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And we talk a lot about the quote Robin Hood method, right? But like, where are other parts of your practice that could make that up? um You know, when we sometimes make decisions about other people's pockets um before we actually know what it is that's going on.
00:10:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And so are you actually engaging with a dialogue about this person, about the money piece, and um if their concerns actually are about money versus not. So I think sometimes we decide ahead of time not to offer something.
00:11:03
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
because of a concern, without considering that the other person can make their own decisions about what works for them and what they want, especially if their desire is to access a supervisor who is anti-oppressive and, you know, taking a certain stance to their work that is that can be much harder to find.
00:11:26
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And that doesn't mean that I say, like, that means that we have to price ourselves as, like, a precious commodity. That's not the message that I'm saying. But I think sometimes we start making decisions about other people's money um as a reason to not put out a service.
00:11:41
Blanca Torres, LMFT
That's a good point. And I was well aware of this cost and I felt that it was worth it for the supervision I would get. so you're right. I'm, I'm, I'm, there could be people that decide I'm worth paying that price and I'm deciding for them before I do it.
00:11:58
Blanca Torres, LMFT
To be clear though, i also want to say I have two years before I can become a supervisor. Um, for, uh, the association of marriage and family therapists, we have to be practicing fully licensed for three years before we can become supervisors. So I'm not even really there yet.
00:12:17
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I don't know. I could be having a trauma response to the thought of becoming a supervisor. But as of again, right now, as of Monday, September 15th, I know this episode is not coming out around that time, but right now as of Monday, September 15th at 1239 Pacific time, um I'm not interested in becoming a supervisor, but that can change. And I ah ah fully stand in that reality.
00:12:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:12:46
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:47
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um there's one more thing that I wanted to say, which is like, you know, I always tell people like they can choose how many spots they want to have for like a low fee thing, whatever that is, right?
00:12:59
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, I always look at my practice and I'm like, okay, like, what's a reasonable number of this that I can do in a year um to fulfill a value that i have without also putting myself in a position of like,
00:13:15
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
not being able to pay my own bills. Right.
00:13:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
right
00:13:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, and so I have offered pro bono services because I can without resentment, but that might be capped. That might be capped. Right.
00:13:29
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, and that's fine. And I'm not saying that you have to do that because sometimes people think that means they have to offer a pro bono spot. And I'm not saying that it could just be a low fee spot or a none right. You end up deciding,
00:13:41
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But for me, that was important for me to be able to do without also being like, oh, this feels awful because I'm like, can I pay my bills today?
00:13:49
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right?
00:13:52
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But, oh, you're getting so many follow-up questions ah because because I think you said something about, oh gosh.
00:13:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Okay, yeah, sure, go for it.
00:14:02
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Is liability? Ethics?
00:14:04
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
No, it was when you were talking about... um the amount of time before have to become a supervisor. But um I'm and blanking on what you said. Maybe it'll come back to me.
00:14:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But for now, we'll we'll leave it at that. And I'll ask about when you define bad supervision.
00:14:28
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Oh, right. Trauma response.
00:14:30
Blanca Torres, LMFT
ah
00:14:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
You said maybe I'm having a trauma response. What do you mean by that?
00:14:36
Blanca Torres, LMFT
ah Well, can I give a little context?
00:14:39
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Of course.
00:14:40
Blanca Torres, LMFT
This was not our planned topic for today. And I didn't tell you, Ksera but I've been dreading this topic for
Defining Bad Supervision
00:14:47
Blanca Torres, LMFT
a while.
00:14:48
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Oh, okay.
00:14:49
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Because I think I'm still processing my own experience in supervision. um and I ended supervision a year...
00:15:02
Blanca Torres, LMFT
and four months ago. So it's been a while. So I'm, I'm actually, I will be honest listeners, because Ksera this might be a really raw topic for me as we continue to talk about it.
00:15:16
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um I think it'll just naturally come out, but, um,
00:15:23
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I have very mixed feelings about what my supervision to licensing was like. i'm not talking about school the supervision I received in school, but the supervision I received once I was licensed as a state intern um and earning my hours to licensure. I have very complex mixed feelings about that relationship and how that all went down.
00:15:47
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um So that's what I meant by trauma response. Sorry.
00:15:52
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
yeah well I mean hashtag relatable content but uh given that or so given that how do you define bad supervision and like if you can try to zoom out of like because it's easy for us to give examples but if you had to sort of define it what would that be
00:16:17
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Well, I think first I would have to ground in the reality that supervision is a relationship just like any others, right? Like I think we want to look at our relationship with our clients as quite clinical, but ultimately at the end of the day, it's still two human beings sitting with each other. Um,
00:16:37
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And so in that consideration, it with that context, I would say that bad supervision is one that doesn't honor humanity, that doesn't give space for mistakes, that doesn't create space for the person's
00:16:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
maybe multiple situations or experiences that might be forming what's happening in the moment. i think maybe if I can just couch that, then it's just like a lack of humanity. Perhaps, as I would say, bad supervision.
00:17:09
Blanca Torres, LMFT
i would also say a supervisor that isn't aware of their how they're affecting the relationship. I would say that that's bad supervision. like and Like a lack of awareness of like, I'm a human sitting with another human and my humanness is going to affect that.
00:17:25
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um I would say that. And I think just because of the topic we're saying, I think just a supervisor that doesn't have an understanding of systems of oppression um in many regards, because whoever your supervisee sitting in front of you is and whoever their clients are, you need to have an awareness of these systems in order to be a good supervisor.
00:17:46
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But yeah, what about you?
00:17:48
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, I would underscore all of those things, but I would go beyond awareness because there are plenty of people who are aware, but because of their own fears of what is a human thing to do, that they're aware, but they don't say anything.
00:18:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And that's just as bad. um And people who intentionally do harmful things, because that's also true as well, um using the relationship for exploitation or bullying um or condescension,
00:18:41
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
all things that supervisees have told me, things that I have also experienced. um And those people are often also clinicians, like practicing clinicians.
00:18:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
right
00:18:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So when people tell me that they've been harmed in therapy, I'm like, yeah, it probably happened, right? um There's too much of the benefit of the doubt given to they are
00:19:12
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um So yeah, I think I would just add those things as additional considerations when I think about bad supervision.
Issues in Supervision: Micromanagement and Neglect
00:19:21
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:19:21
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I would agree. Absolutely.
00:19:24
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:19:25
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And then if I can add to just like kind of the micromanagement of things that can happen.
00:19:31
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um
00:19:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Well, or lack of management, because I've also experienced that as well.
00:19:35
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yes.
00:19:37
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:19:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um Especially if you're in like a context with like other clinicians um and there's no accountability for their behavior or actions. um That's also a problem too.
00:19:52
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So some people are just aren't even present as supervisors. um So there's different extremes at which bad supervision is a thing.
00:20:04
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, so I'm aware that you talked sort of generally about still processing this experience.
00:20:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, so you don't need to get into the details if you're like, I'm not there yet. And maybe we can talk about that, like on our Patreon,
00:20:26
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Oh yeah, sure.
00:20:26
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um for our subscribers. um But do you feel comfortable kind of reflecting on like what happened to you as a result of that?
00:20:39
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, were there parts of your growth that it stunted or were there things that maybe went in the opposite direction as a result of it? Like, what did you take from that experience
00:20:56
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I think this is the part I'm grappling with perhaps because i firmly believe, i mean, I have my moments where I doubt myself as a therapist. I have my weeks that I'm like, what am I doing?
00:21:09
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But overall, do believe I'm a good therapist. And I know that that is because of the supervision I received.
00:21:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I think the part of it that I'm grappling with is not necessarily so much the clinical, But it was the personal, the human moments with the supervisor um that I think left some, I guess, bruising perhaps, um for lack of a better word right now.
00:21:44
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Some tender points, the human to human aspect more than more than the clinical aspect. But... In my school supervision, i had, you know, I'm just going to say it.
00:21:59
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I had terrible supervision um during my time as a student. And I think that had more ram ramifications in terms of my clinical work than the supervision I received while during my intern license time, if that makes sense.
00:22:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
In what way are you separating clinical and human in that relationship?
00:22:31
Blanca Torres, LMFT
i i think there was some moments where I felt harmed on a personal level.
00:22:41
Blanca Torres, LMFT
but not a clinical level. And I guess you're right. We can't, well, I don't know if you're right. Cause I don't know what your point is, but I'm guessing what your point is, is that we can't really separate those things. But I, what I mean by this is like, i don't doubt my clinical skills because of those moments.
00:22:58
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I don't doubt my, yeah, my capacities. I feel confident in, in my work. And there were parts of the relationship where I felt personally hurt, I guess.
00:23:17
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So that's what I mean by that. Does that answer the question?
00:23:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, I mean, I didn't really have a particular, like, thought in my head when I said it. Like, it wasn't like I had an answer that I see the two as, like, separate or linked necessarily.
00:23:35
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, I think it's a both and. um but as you know, I like to favor, especially thinking about the conversation that we had about clinical niche and clinical persona and the way those things are linked to our authentic self.
00:23:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And our authentic self is a part of what we hope would be able to be present in supervision, but can get harmed in supervision.
Authenticity and Personal Growth in Supervision
00:23:58
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
so like I'm linking all of those things in my mind as I ask that question, um which is, you know, yeah, yeah.
00:24:05
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:24:08
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah. And I mean, you're not wrong, but I'm going to be honest. I'm feeling a stubborn desire to say that it's very different in this case that I'm talking about. um and and And I don't think you're wrong. I think there are some ways it ah did affect me personally.
00:24:29
Blanca Torres, LMFT
quote unquote, personally, that obviously shows up in the therapy room. So I can't deny that. But those are things I'm not ready to talk about publicly.
00:24:39
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. um So can you say a little bit more, though, about the... The piece of you that is you because of the supervision
00:24:54
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
that you received.
00:24:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Can you say a little bit more?
00:24:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So you mentioned like you like you are who you are because of the that supervision, right?
00:24:57
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:25:01
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, I mean, you're still you. You're always you, right? But clearly there are reasons you know your work is good. Right. Like there are reasons that you feel like the way you do about how you're approaching things. And I'm wondering in what way is that linked to the supervisory experience?
00:25:21
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, how does one come to know and have that certainty
00:25:26
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:25:27
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um versus the person who ends up not coming out that way?
00:25:32
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yes. I think I don't feel as here comes this word again, stubborn perhaps about things not being black and white.
00:25:42
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um I'm much more open about the gray of everything um in the world that we live in and the context our clients bring. I feel like now i Now I struggle with the with the word judgmental because I think there's way more nuance to the word judgmental than what what we use on a day-to-day.
00:26:03
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But I do feel less judgmental, not just of my clients, but of people at large. um Again, a big asterisk there. And maybe we can talk about the nuances of the word judgment another episode if we really want to.
00:26:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um But I think my openness to the human experience I think is a direct result of that. I think my ability to hold compassion for my clients, even when they're showing up as what they would call, not me, they would call their worst version of themselves.
00:26:43
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um I would say in those ways that that supervision shaped me in in the bringing humanity into the room.
00:26:54
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And it this also made me think, if you don't mind me offering, um about our conversation, I think, in our um episode about clinical personas, that about the age context that you provided at the end of that episode, right? You talked about how old you were when you went back to school um versus how old I was and the different developmental points that we were at, right? You said 32, 32, yeah. I was I was 20
00:27:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um
00:27:25
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yes.
00:27:26
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
thirty two yeah and i was twenty
00:27:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And um i think that matters as well. You know, you had already been through a lot of different professional experiences. um So I feel like I was much more maybe i don't know, this is just sort of relevant thinking about
Age, Development, and Supervision
00:27:47
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
age. I was much more susceptible to
00:27:51
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
those things potentially shaking my confidence in my own skills because of where I was at in terms of my age. So I was just thinking about that as well.
00:28:02
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:28:04
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, I don't know if that fits for you, but.
00:28:07
Blanca Torres, LMFT
No, I think that makes sense too. um I think that's added context and i don't know. i'm I'm first, this is what I, you know, when people ask me about supervision in general, i this is genuinely how I feel.
00:28:22
Blanca Torres, LMFT
It's, it's an, I'm not ready and I don't know. and there were things about it that were phenomenal and there were things about it that were painful um Which, I mean, is again, speaks to a true human-to-human relationship. No relationship is perfect.
00:28:38
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um But i I'm still internally, personally trying to create space for both things to be true.
00:28:53
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. And I was thinking about this, like, you know, my own decision to be a supervisor, because like, you know, I was asked if I wanted to do it. I've always been a generative and sort individual.
00:29:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But I've also, and also talked in prior episodes about seeking outside supervisors. um So when we say outside supervisors, for those who don't know, um supervisors outside of your site, your training sites.
00:29:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um I sought those out and they happen to be wonderful people.
00:29:24
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm-hmm.
00:29:24
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And I was like, oh, I want to sort of give that to other people as well, like the wonderful things that I received. But I'm also aware of the way in which It's my own like response, trauma response ah to being a caretaker um because I'm like, I can't unlink my desire to fix harms from that experience, especially when I witness students around me
00:30:00
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
even presently receiving what I consider to be lackluster, if not overtly bad supervision.
00:30:09
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm-hmm.
00:30:09
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And so there is a part of me that's like, well, if I can be the person who can provide some reparative experiences because I'm here and I'm in a position of power, Wonderful, right? But that isn't always my responsibility. And something to grapple with as well.
Cultural Competency and Supervision Challenges
00:30:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But I think about like, i always think about that, because sometimes I think my response is to incompetence, just straight up incompetence, a lot of us aren't ever really trained to be supervisors.
00:30:39
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
We just end up in the role. And that in and of itself is not great. um There are not a lot of trainings targeting supervisors, especially when it comes to areas of culture and oppression and privilege.
00:30:52
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And then there's not enough interrogation of like the power piece of happening into a role that you were inadequately prepared for. um And what people are doing or not doing to actually remedy, recognize and remedy that.
00:31:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Because I think some people don't even like realize that they've sleepwalked into a supervisory position.
00:31:21
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:31:22
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And then there are the people who do it as a matter of exerting power over others. Yeah.
00:31:28
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, which we see in the field, i think, all of the time. Can i ask a quick clarifying question?
00:31:34
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, of course.
00:31:35
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So if I were to decide to become a supervisor in two years, I have to take a supervisory course and I have to get a supervisor for supervisor. Do you have to do the same thing in your field?
00:31:48
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I'm not saying it's adequate.
00:31:49
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
At least. Yeah.
00:31:50
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I'm just curious.
00:31:53
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah No. No.
00:31:54
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Oh.
00:31:55
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But I don't want to say like a blanket no, because there might be some state specific differences in this that I am not aware of. But no, that's not a thing.
00:32:07
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Oh, wow. That's interesting.
00:32:08
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
You're...
00:32:08
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And now i I do know the course applies to all all all people um who want to be supervisors through AAMFT, the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapists.
00:32:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I believe the three year of licensed work is Nevada specific. um But I don't know because I'm not that close yet. So I haven't looked into it that much.
00:32:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. And I mean, and and it depends, right? Because like, if you're going to be like a internship supervisor specifically, um there are different things that you have to fill out and all of that. Like they want background information. um I'm not aware of any specific coursework that that person has to show up though, however, other than like the usual checking of your credentials and if there were any board complaints against you and these little things. But yeah,
00:33:01
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
it's not, as far as I'm aware, universally applied. ah
00:33:10
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So um I'm not going to do any fancy editing this back if I happen to be wrong about that, because I know that there are more requirements if you're going to be an internship site.
00:33:23
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But they're usually mostly checking for to make sure that the site has the minimum requirements to count um I'm not aware of his as as much scrutiny on the actual supervisors themselves.
00:33:38
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Wow.
00:33:40
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yep.
00:33:41
Blanca Torres, LMFT
That's shocking. um It's shocking to me because, again, I've always known about that requirement for my board. But, yeah, I also am not surprised because, of course, that tracks that you're not required to do anything in particular. And that creates even more space for the people who are just trying to wield power.
00:34:03
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. Yeah. So like I said, for the listeners to be clear, there might be some state specific stuff. There might be some internship specific stuff, postdoc specific stuff. But nobody has asked me for any of those things in my role as a testing supervisor. So just just to be clear.
00:34:24
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Fascinating.
00:34:24
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, yeah. And i think that's like part of this conversation about like all of the unwitting ways that supervision can reproduce oppressive dynamics, right? Because at least for psychology, a lot of people are happening into the role as a result of the a position that they occupy at a training site. Um,
00:34:48
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
for example. And I want to be careful about how I talk about this because it'll be pretty easy to find out where.
00:34:59
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm-hmm.
00:34:59
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But I have had to have literal arguments about the importance of clear supervisory plan documents as well as methods of feedback that
00:35:30
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
when arise, what happens, how is that handled? um down to, you know, supervisees asking me, like, I don't know if I can ah bring up this race issue with my primary supervisor, because I'm not sure if they're even aware of it.
00:35:49
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And the problem with that being that the supervisee shouldn't be the one bringing up the issue. right? Or at least they should have created a space where it felt comfortable for that to be broached.
00:36:03
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I want to be clear that this is not all malicious intent, but there's just so much gap. I'd say a lot of it more due to incompetence than anything, or as they say, people rising to the level of their incompetence, right? They just end up in these positions.
00:36:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But... um it's It's really, it causes so much harm.
00:36:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And then supervisees are left with situations where they don't know how to handle certain things that are coming up. And then they're just doing the best that they can.
00:36:43
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And then that might end up being harmful. ah
00:36:47
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So it can reproduce oppression violence. in the supervisory relationship that then trickles to the client, but then in the relationship itself on a number of different levels.
00:37:02
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um So, it's just, I think we underestimate the degree to which it's so important that the systems, at least for my field, are not super clear about this.
00:37:22
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, I never thought I would be a little grateful about all that red tape, but.
00:37:29
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, but the problem then with all that red red tape, at least the problem for me is there's not a ton of supervisors of color in Nevada. There's more now.
00:37:42
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um Not a ton then and not a ton that I felt really aligned with. So I had to make the choice between um someone who aligned with the way that I viewed the world and systems of oppression or someone of color.
00:37:59
Blanca Torres, LMFT
At that time, i had to make that choice. And that's because of the red tape, right?
00:38:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:38:07
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:38:07
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. um I think, you know, something that I was alluding to as well are is the systems piece of this.
Institutional Negligence in Supervision
00:38:16
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm-hmm.
00:38:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I mean, the red tape bureaucracy systems, blah, blah, blah, right? Like all of that is a part of this. um But I think specifically what I want to talk about is when an institution knows they've been alerted multiple times and this person is still left in a position of power.
00:38:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Oh man, that burns me up so much. And I cannot tell you how often this happens.
00:38:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like,
00:38:53
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and along just a, gosh. Along clinical lines, right? um And when I say clinical lines specifically, like just being poorly supported around a case when it has to do with trauma um and things, certain things are coming up with a patient.
00:39:17
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
i can't remember if I shared this because I think I block it out every single time I do. I just put it back in its pocket. But like, um, I was, I had a five-year-old client that I was working with and my, um, um, during my training and there was significant sexual trauma.
00:39:35
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, and, um,
00:39:40
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
you could You know, when you're working with significant nonverbal, preverbal trauma, um you can sometimes feel those dynamics come up in the room. um And you can feel like you're being pulled into the role of a perpetrator, especially when it comes with like play therapy and things like that.
00:39:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I was talking about that with said supervisor. And then in the middle of it, she just starts laughing.
00:40:03
Blanca Torres, LMFT
what
00:40:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I was like so disoriented because I was crying. I was really upset. I'm trying to figure out like how to make sense of what happened. And um she like is like, oh, there's a headless bust of Freud on the shelf.
00:40:21
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And that was what she was laughing about in in the middle of this awful thing that happened.
00:40:27
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Oh my God.
00:40:29
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And i remember leaving that feeling so awful And luckily I had a mentor who was able to both process that that happened with me, but also helped me process the session that I had with this kiddo so that I could show up and a you know in a way that was um what they needed in our next session.
00:40:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But I remember thinking to myself, wow, this is somebody who maybe doesn't know how to handle emotional content.
00:41:03
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm-hmm.
00:41:04
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And this is not a space that's safe for me to to bring that content in, especially traumatic content. um and
00:41:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
things like that are, if I didn't have another person to go to, I may not have known what to do next or what would have been helpful next or even how to process what happened.
00:41:34
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And processing the way in which trauma therapy can be traumatizing to the therapist is really fucking important.
00:41:43
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:41:44
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
It's really important. um And so I want to be, I bring this example up because I'm like, what would have happened if I didn't have access to somebody who could?
00:41:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I might have stopped doing the work. I might have unwittingly done something that was harmful. um And so, you know, part of my message is that, like, I really don't think this is all intentional.
00:42:10
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But people just can be so unaware um or in some cases so malicious that they leave us unable to serve the people that we
Impact of Supervision on Client Care
00:42:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
we have signed up to serve in the way that they deserve.
00:42:27
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:42:29
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And then once we're like unsupervised, we may just go off with whatever training we had and try our best to do the work. And that may not be good enough.
00:42:39
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right. You know, and I'm glad you said that last piece, because that's what I mean about my supervisor, my relationship with my supervisor. I don't really think I was left with anything that doesn't allow me to show up for the client the way the client needs.
00:43:00
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right. Like i do I do think it was more of a Personal, internal, I don't know how to else to explain it other than i really don't think it was anything like that, right? Where it affected my ability to show up or do my clinical work with my clients. It was really just a matter of...
00:43:22
Blanca Torres, LMFT
personal experiences. So, but I'm really glad you said that because I mean, that does happen really often. I know for me in my grad program, which I've been pretty honest about already, there was times I was told I would be a bad therapist because of my cultural lens.
00:43:42
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I was specifically in a review that was written down and is documented somewhere, was told that my cultural and feminist lens gets in the way of my, it of um what was the word that he said?
00:44:00
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Of the way that I see my clients or something like that. That really, that really affected me for a long time and even does now. I have moments where that comment just pops into my head and I'm like, oh my God, is my feminism and my intersectionality making it so that I can't see what's happening clearly?
00:44:21
Blanca Torres, LMFT
In reality, I know it lets me see things as clearly as anyone possibly could. You know, um but that did affect me for years amongst other, you know, one other throwaway comment. Someone said, ah supervisor said, if a client cancels and you're and you're happy about it, you're burnt out and you shouldn't be seeing clients.
00:44:41
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And I remember saying that feels really black and white because if I was going to go to happy hour, my friends had plans for happy hour and I was going to be late and then that last client canceled and now I can be on time,
00:44:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I'm allowed to say, yay, can be on time to hang out with my friends. And I don't think that that's any indication whatsoever about my ability to show up and see clients. um So that one stuck with me for a while, only in my disbelief of it, not in that I actually believe it.
00:45:12
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But yeah.
00:45:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. You know, i'm I'm glad you brought this up, though, because it was making me think about, like, because you have mentioned this, the feminism part before, and it makes me think about, like, sort of decolonizing scholars,
Incorporating Societal Context in Supervision
00:45:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
right?
00:45:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And the way that, like, liberation health, liberation psychology, um, talks about the inextricable role that systems
00:45:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
systems of oppression have in the way we even think about the work, right? Because a comment like that assumes that the work is totally neutral to begin with.
00:45:58
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
we accept that...
00:46:03
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
that is true, right? Then we're already showing up doing a disservice to people. And like, how do I want to put this?
00:46:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
impartiality, as we talked about, is not the same as neutrality. I can hold... the client's life from an impartial space, right?
00:46:33
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Where I'm not judging their experience, but it is not neutral in the sense that I'm going to pretend that the outside world doesn't exist and it doesn't have an impact on their lives.
00:46:47
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Right?
00:46:48
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yes.
00:46:49
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
because I cannot tell you how often I have been criticized for the fact that sociopolitical issues have no business in forensic work. And I'm just like, do you understand that a lot of these people are in the freaking system?
00:47:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
As a result, a direct result of the carceral state. Like, oh, this person needs housing and that's why they got into trouble.
00:47:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Right? Like this person needs food. and that's why they robbed that store.
00:47:28
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And so I'm not saying that that means that my ability to do my job changes as a result of that.
00:47:40
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I just happen to show up offering more freaking context than you would.
00:47:45
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right, right.
00:47:46
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
right? Like the powers that be will still make the decisions that they're going to make, but I'm going to make sure to give them all of the information that they need to make those decisions.
00:47:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I get, I get, if listeners like Dr. Dyette sounds fired up, I am, i am. Because like so many people think that this work means that the outside world doesn't exist.
00:48:10
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I totally agree. And if I can just offer a just a reframe on the word context, you're here to offer context. Fuck that. You're here to offer humanity.
00:48:20
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Because when you refuse to look at how an individual is being affected by all the systems that we have, you are dehumanizing them. Because you're expecting them to show up in a way that implies that that system doesn't exist.
00:48:34
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And it does. It exists. It permeates people's life and experiences. And thus, their mental health.
00:48:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
hmm. I mean, that's like me sitting with clients right now, like forgetting that, at least again, in our US context, and I know other things are happening in other places in the world, but this is where we are located, Turtle Island, that in this context, there aren't things happening. And they're like, I've been feeling more agitated lately. i'm like, well, why the hell might you be right?
00:49:08
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And it may not all be the context, like all of what's going on in the world, but I can guarantee you, that 100% of my clients are worrying about what's going on in the world.
00:49:20
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Completely.
00:49:21
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So if I am approaching conceptualization and treatment without thinking about that, I am doing them a disservice.
00:49:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Because then I'm failing to normalize and contextualize the parts of their experience that can't be therapized away, that can't be medicated away.
00:49:44
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I think people deserve to have a space where their clinician isn't going to take that approach to the work.
00:49:54
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Absolutely. How can you tell someone who is undocumented or otherwise being targeted right now um based on assumptions of their immigration status to engage in nervous system calming exercises because you'll be fine?
00:50:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
How can you possibly say that to someone when they're facing potential kidnapping and disappearance in the street? State sanctioned disappearances. Right. How can you possibly tell that person, oh, you just need to calm your nervous system or, you know, try this CBT thought investigation for your anxiety.
00:50:32
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And if you can't create space for that, then you're you're denying people their humanity.
00:50:39
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yes. And I don't want to assume this so you can let me know, but like, I would say that you're not saying that that means that we don't give people things that they can use if they want to access them.
00:50:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I feel like you're saying that like, we can't use those things. We shouldn't be using things to gaslight or erase the real harms that they face.
00:51:09
Blanca Torres, LMFT
That's exactly right. That is exactly right. Of course, I give my clients tools they can use to try to calm find calm and regulate. But I will tell you exactly what I tell them.
00:51:20
Blanca Torres, LMFT
If there's a man with an axe running after you in the street, it is not the time to sit down and calm your nervous system.
00:51:28
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Exactly.
00:51:29
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And I'm sorry to tell you, but there is a man running after you in the street with an axe.
00:51:34
Blanca Torres, LMFT
There's only so much you can do.
00:51:37
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um And that's just to kind of normalize, right? There's so many people out there, at least my clients, they're doing all the things. They're doing, they're moving their body. They're doing, they're doing all the things that we say matters for self-care. And it can only do some, Blanca, I'm still, of course you are.
00:51:56
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Of course you're feeling that way. Your world is on fire. you are in danger. Keep doing those things because imagine how much worse you would feel if you weren't.
00:52:07
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But these are not meant to be resolution. They're not meant to solve anything because we we can't solve it. I forgot how we got on this soapbox. I'm so sorry.
00:52:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But there we go.
00:52:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
No, we were talking about institutional issues and the typical approach, right?
00:52:22
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right. Right.
00:52:23
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, and You know, you and I have both, well, you kind of provided a very broad example. I provided a specific example. So the listeners have some different examples. And certainly um I've experienced this as related to race in some ways, especially because like almost all of my primary supervisors were wyt particularly wyt womxn
00:52:48
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But I do want to talk about, because I feel like we're kind of circling it a little bit. um Like what the other side of this looks like? What does it mean to do better? What does it look like to do better? And you know, you and I both just stated some of that, right?
00:53:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And I also mentioned some of it in the beginning, which is like, what is the frame of your work? How are you signaling that in the beginning to your supervisee?
00:53:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um Understanding that it's not a one size fits all for each supervisee. Because, I mean, I've talked with supervisors about this and some people feel threatened by some of the suggestions that I make where they're like, well, I don't want anybody to tell me how I can do my work.
00:53:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I'm just like, if I said, okay, that statement is more about you than it is about the person sitting in front of you. And I'm like, if that's the thought that you have, I really need you to interrogate what you think supervision is about because it's not for you,
00:54:01
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Right. And you can have a supervisory style, just like we have our clinical niches and our clinical personas. Nobody's saying you can't have your style.
00:54:13
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But everyone deserves
00:54:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
to be offered the same foundation.
Improving Supervision Practices
00:54:24
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
of support that is thinking about all of the things that we're talking about, including critically examining how you actually feel about all of the different things that we talked about. um And I don't want to just um say this in the um the theoretical ah there is a really great um cultural interview, the Wright-Constantine Structured cultural interview, um where, um,
00:54:59
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Jordan Wright and Keisha Constantine, um, write about like how to use this in supervision, this tool. Um, and, and, um, it's meant to be done with clients. It's a cultural interview, but that the clinician and the supervisee, the supervisor and supervisee actually do the interview with each other.
00:55:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Oh, I love that.
00:55:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And I love, love, love using this in my supervision as well to sort of set the frame um because it's also a really great practice for figuring out where you don't feel comfortable both asking and answering certain questions.
00:55:36
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And especially examining your ability to engage in conversation about culture and oppression, which is absolutely necessary in good supervision. I'm, I have no problem, no qualms with saying that it is absolutely necessary.
00:55:53
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And if it's not in your supervision, I'm going to put you in the bad supervision category.
00:55:58
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm-hmm.
00:56:00
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
You can come for me if you want, but I don't care. um And it's helpful for transparency and accountability. And it's really important for supervisees to know how they're going to receive feedback and what that's going to look like and when and for them to talk about like what their goals are for their professional development and for you to talk about what you can actually facilitate for that versus what you can't.
00:56:26
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I always have an honest conversation. I'm like, you know what? We'll be able to get you these experiences here, but we probably won't be able to do this part of it. And really being like upfront about that um and asking questions that I think are hard questions.
00:56:44
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and And when say hard questions, they might feel hard for Right? Right. but it might be necessary for them. And really sort of interrogating each relationship as I go through um to be thinking about all of these things. So that's what I would say, like, I try to do for doing it better. And then whatever trainings come out that, like, actually address these issues, I try to make sure to take as well.
00:57:13
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
What about you, Blanca?
00:57:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
That's incredible.
00:57:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Blanca?
00:57:16
Blanca Torres, LMFT
What makes a good supervisor?
00:57:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, like, is there anything?
00:57:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I'm not a supervisor, so I can't answer that same one.
00:57:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, but like, what would you add that you know, that maybe I missed or other practical suggestions?
00:57:21
Blanca Torres, LMFT
yeah
00:57:27
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:57:29
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I don't know that you missed much. I want to underscore what I said at the beginning, which is the importance of acknowledging people's humanity and the fact that supervisor to supervisee at the end of the day, it's still human to human relationship and like having an awareness of that.
00:57:44
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um One thing that's coming up that i'm I'm trying to find a way to share because I don't know that it's for me to share, but would say are supervisors that are So micromanage, managey and such stricklers.
00:58:04
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Is that the word sticklers? Sticklers is the word.
00:58:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Too close.
00:58:06
Blanca Torres, LMFT
English is my second language. um To the detriment of the supervisee. And I think that requires the supervisor to have an awareness of.
00:58:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
why, how they're showing up and how it affects others for that too. um So I guess that part, just having an awareness of your own humanity and how it's showing up in the room, your own perfectionism and how it's showing up in the room.
00:58:34
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I think would make you a good supervisor. But yeah, being aware of your humanity is the only thing I would add
Humanity and Neglect in Supervisory Relationships
00:58:39
Blanca Torres, LMFT
to what you said. Cause I think that was pretty robust.
00:58:42
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um And remembering again, sorry for the repetition, but structural powers or not, I am a human being deeply vulnerable with another human Because other people are being deeply vulnerable with us.
00:59:00
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And I think there has to be space for that. You can't just be overly clinical, overly professional, overly all those things. You have to be human too.
00:59:15
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, and relatedly, and I had mentioned this in parallel to your comment earlier, but you can't be absent either. um So the other side of this is like some supervisors are just like, oh, yeah, they're at this level now. And so I don't need to monitor what they're doing. They should know how to do it.
00:59:35
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And there's no checking the work. And I'm like, I have no idea what happened before me. I have no idea. And why am I assuming that this person needs nothing from me?
00:59:49
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Again, is that more about me and less about them? Right? Like, there is a part of it that's about me, which is like, I want to make sure that I know what's going on under my license.
01:00:01
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But then it's also like, how can I adequately assess what their needs are if I haven't observed their work? And so i think some supervisors in trying to not be overbearing and over managing are benignly neglectful.
01:00:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And that bothers me as much as the other side of it bothers me too, the overly clinical, overly managing, you know, blah, blah, blah, and not really helping somebody foster their own sense of um identity and and authenticity in the work.
01:00:36
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah
01:00:37
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
all of the things that we've talked about.
01:00:40
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, absolutely.
01:00:44
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
we ended, obviously, with some just practical considerations.
Continuous Learning in Supervision and AI
01:00:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And um I will say that I do support folks who want to be supervisors who need a training, especially in the cultural aspects of this.
01:01:05
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And i try to do my due diligence every year to continue to keep my training up.
01:01:13
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But we will transition to being called to our bodies again. So whatever you are feeling right now, tense, inspired, grieving, invigorated, curious, it's all okay.
01:01:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Let it be. You don't need to fix anything. Just pause. Now bring your focus to one small point inside you, your heartbeat.
01:01:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
You don't have to feel it right away. Just notice somewhere deep inside your heart is still beating, steady, quiet, working for you.
01:01:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
If you feel restlessness or tension, just let it be. Let your heartbeat become your anchor, a quiet rhythm beneath the noise. You are safe to pause.
01:02:09
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
You are allowed to feel what you feel. And underneath it all, your heart keeps going strong and steady.
01:02:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Stay with that rhythm for just a moment longer. And when you are ready, come back to us for our moment of joy and thriving this week.
01:02:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Blanca, what is your moment of joy and or thriving this week?
01:02:39
Blanca Torres, LMFT
This week, well, over the last couple of weeks, I've reconnected with a childhood hobby, and that's cross-stitching. um And that is bringing me a lot of joy, and I would even say thriving, because it's keeping my hands busy and off of my phone and off of screen time and social media.
01:02:59
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um And that's just been so much fun. Most days, I'm like, hmm, can I bring my cross-stitching to that event? Hmm. Or don't feel like doing that. I'd rather cross stitch.
01:03:10
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So I have a long list of patterns. It's going to take me months to get to yours, Ksera So you have time to choose. um But yeah, that's been a lot of fun. Just finding patterns, relearning an old habit and just keeping myself busy in a granny hobby is I think, very good for me.
01:03:32
Blanca Torres, LMFT
What about you, Kassara?
01:03:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
yeah
01:03:33
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
01:03:34
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, so my birthday just happened.
01:03:37
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
01:03:37
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And I was away for an organizational meeting. um But I continued my tradition of taking myself to afternoon tea.
01:03:51
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
high tea in new cities. That's what I always do. That's my thing. And I found a place called Lily's and Elise in Detroit that's Black-owned, founded in 2019, and still kicking, even through COVID. And ah The owner was one of the folks serving me and she was so lovely and her business was so beautiful. Like everything was thought out down to like the swan
01:04:21
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um ah faucet in the bathroom, which matched the swan holder for all of the um desserts. Like everything was thought about.
01:04:31
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Cute.
01:04:33
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And then you had like black ladies, black old ladies having tea, young black ladies having tea, black womxn with her daughter having tea. And I'm like, oh, my God, all these beautiful black people just having tea in the middle of the day.
01:04:46
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, and a wedding party came in also a black bride. And I was like, this is fabulous. Like, I just love that pocket of black joy and that I got to be a part of it.
01:04:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, and it was very excellent. So if y'all find yourselves in Detroit, it's, it's just like 20 minutes out, like outside of the city. So not quite in the city proper, but, um, yeah, that was my moment of joy in there, I think.
01:05:14
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, the pictures were gorgeous and I love this tradition of yours. um Maybe next year we can both come to, we we can meet in Las Vegas and go to the tea room at the Waldorf.
01:05:27
Blanca Torres, LMFT
It's supposed to be very good here.
01:05:29
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Oh, well, I'm curious. You might have to check it out before. I don't know. Y'all, so I'm a tea connoisseur. I'm a high tea connoisseur. And i have mixed opinions of hotel teas.
01:05:41
Blanca Torres, LMFT
ah okay.
01:05:41
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um
01:05:41
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Good to know.
01:05:42
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Most of the hotel teas I've had have been terrible.
01:05:45
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Not good.
01:05:46
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But the Grand American Hotel in Salt Lake City or in Utah, that was actually a pretty good hotel tea.
01:05:56
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Oh, okay.
01:05:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Never mind good. colonial that hotel feels to me, ah even though it's not that old.
01:06:00
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I know, right?
01:06:02
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And also Grand American made me think of Make America Great Again.
01:06:06
Blanca Torres, LMFT
ah Did you see my face when you said i it was called?
01:06:08
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I did see your face.
01:06:09
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Okay. Okay.
01:06:09
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Listen, I had all kinds of feelings. I walked into that hotel and I was like, this is opulence on steroids and there are pictures of wyt people everywhere.
01:06:21
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:06:23
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So, yeah, but I will drop the name of the tea place in the show notes with a link. um Y'all patron this lovely woman and give her your business.
01:06:34
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And maybe for funsies, we can put it on the Instagram.
01:06:38
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, why not?
01:06:39
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So, yeah.
01:06:40
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I don't see why not.
01:06:41
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. All right, everybody. Well, that's our episode.
01:06:44
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Hmm.
01:06:47
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And until next be well. time be well
01:06:52
Blanca Torres, LMFT
See you later. Bye. my
01:06:54
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Bye. bye