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Episode 2: Called to...Graduate School - Part 1
29 Plays4 months ago
In this episode, we dive into co-host, Dr. Ksera Dyette's experience in graduate school. She discusses the highs, the lows, the middling and more. From not being sure what she wanted to do, to not having enough money to fill her gas tank, to discriminatory experiences in school, a lot is covered, and it is still not everything.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction & Respect for Traditional Land
00:00:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Welcome to the second episode of Called to Healing. I'm Blanca. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Nevada.
00:00:28
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I'm Dr. Ksera Dyette I am a licensed clinical psychologist in the state of Massachusetts. And we want to acknowledge, as we will on every episode, that our meetings are being held on the traditional lands of the Pawtucket, NUWUVI and Southern Pauite people.
00:00:49
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and we pay our respect to elders both past and present who have stewarded this land for generations as we are settlers here on Turtle Island. If you are joining us ah for the second time for this episode, welcome back. And if this is your first episode, we're happy to welcome you into this space.
Upcoming Episodes & Political Context
00:01:12
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So over the next couple of episodes, for just as a refresh for anybody who was here with us before,
00:01:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah We're going to be talking about our respective experiences in grad school.
Inspiration for Grad School: 'The Silent Patient'
00:01:27
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Awesome. Well, um we're going to get into today's conversation. And just to get us started, Ksera tell us what inspired you to pursue grad school and why you chose clinical psychology.
Therapy as a Response to Personal Trauma
00:01:40
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yes, so it's funny, ah since, let's see, yesterday, I guess, I finished reading this book ah called The Silent Patient.
00:01:49
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Hmm.
00:01:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I promise it's relevant to your question. But it's a I won't spoil it, but essentially it's about like a patient who murders her husband and um won't talk, won't speak about it.
00:02:04
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And it's about the therapist who works with her. And that's probably the most I can say. But it was really interesting listening to him talk because there's this scene where he's talking about interviewing for a new job.
00:02:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And he talks about what answer he would really give to that question, like what made you choose the field versus his well-rehearsed answer for a job interviews.
00:02:29
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Thank you.
00:02:30
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I think he says something along the lines of like we, those of us who get into this field get into it because we're all sort of messed up in some way.
00:02:41
Blanca Torres, LMFT
ah
00:02:42
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And his rehearsed answer is, I want to help people.
00:02:45
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, I knew it.
00:02:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And his
00:02:46
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I knew that was the rehearsed answer. I knew it.
00:02:48
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. And he was like, you know whether we want to admit it to ourselves or not, that's why we end up in this field, the the the the messed up part.
Financial Concerns & First-Generation Challenges
00:02:59
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I thought that was so interesting because I think I remember many interviews that I had to have during in grad school and even for grad school where I was asked this question. And I was always fascinated with why people do the things they do.
00:03:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and what choices they make and I was obsessed with this question of like nature versus nurture like how do people end up making sort of quote bad choices and at the time at least in high school which was when I was asking myself this question I wasn't really aware of it being connected to interest or issues with social justice I like I didn't have the language to name that, but I think ultimately it was both about contextualizing experiences that I had had, I think that was probably a later more conscious realization, um but the more present one at the time that I decided to pursue gra graduate school in psychology was like the world is messed up,
00:03:40
Blanca Torres, LMFT
he
00:04:06
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:04:07
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Why do some people do bad things? And some people, despite the things that have happened to them, take a different path.
Program Structure: Weiner University
00:04:15
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and I wasn't sure at first if I was going to go to graduate school in psychology specifically.
00:04:23
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
like I had thought about law school. I had thought about doing a master's in philosophy and at Oxford. ah So I was all over the place. But like my central ah question about figuring out people was really the thing that eventually got me to to this path.
00:04:34
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Wow.
00:04:44
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um So in other words, becoming a therapist initially was your trauma response.
00:04:53
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
For sure.
00:04:54
Blanca Torres, LMFT
but it's Spoiler alert, it's all of ours. It's all of our trauma response.
00:05:02
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. Yeah. yeah
00:05:05
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Did you have any hesitations or doubts about going to grad school?
00:05:09
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I think my only hesitation at the time was money.
00:05:14
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:05:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah I was the first person in my family to go to college. I mentioned in the last episode I'm an immigrant and no one knew no one could have prepared me for like the financial expectations and like really understanding what it meant to sign up for financial aid and I knew it was just going to cost a lot of money and
Mentorship & Support from Faculty
00:05:36
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I was going to have to borrow all of it and then I'd figure out how to pay it back somehow and
00:05:44
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mhm
00:05:48
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
that money barrier was not a good enough reason to deny myself the opportunity to become a doctor.
00:05:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So that was like what my brain was doing.
00:06:01
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah So that was the only hesitation I had at the time.
00:06:05
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, do you want to tell us a little bit about like the program that you went to and then we'll get into more specific questions or
00:06:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, I mean, I could just talk about it structurally. um So I attended Widener University in Chester, Pennsylvania, and it was a five-year program. And it was structured really so that it shouldn't take longer than that. um You really had to have gotten significantly derailed for that to be the case.
00:06:37
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and um I did do a lot of research on the program and I chose the program specifically because I really liked some of the interests of the faculty.
00:06:47
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I liked that it was a lot of the faculty were psychodynamically oriented, which had entered my sort of frame of reference more in my classes in undergrad.
00:06:59
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and um ah We had practicum, we had internship, just like many other clinical programs. And for anybody who isn't familiar with the difference, a PsyD is clinical psychology, ah which is more practice-oriented. Whereas a PhD, there are clinical folks who come out of PhD programs, but PhD programs tend to be more research-oriented, and there tends to be more funding available for folks um and stipends.
00:07:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
which is not so common in PsyD programs.
00:07:36
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right. um Is there a specific professor or mentor who had a significant impact on your experience?
00:07:44
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, so um the person who interviewed me, um Dr. Prout and I remember this interview because I had like done really badly on the math GRE section and he asked me.
00:08:02
Blanca Torres, LMFT
twins.
00:08:03
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yes. He was like, help me understand why your grades in math are excellent. You know, I was doing like AP classes, but your GRE score is so terrible. And I told him, I was like, I am not good at taking standardized tests. Like, I really am not. And that also came to bite me in the butt later for the EPPP, our licensure exam. But I was a terrible terrible test taker. And ah he said that that was good enough for him. And you know he was just he had to ask. he And um I think based on that interview, plus my interactions with other students, because like we clearly were being observed on interview day interacting with one another as well. um It was the only program that made me an offer out of everywhere I applied.
00:08:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And he always believed in me and ended up being on my dissertation committee as my chair and was there for some very important moments throughout my time.
00:09:10
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I'll probably talk about some of those stories, but yeah, he was definitely a key part. And another professor, Dr. Brabender Virginia Brabender she was always encouraging students to do like things to the best of their ability. She was quite inspiring, scary too. ah And if she ever hears this, it's okay. Because everybody was like, no, we you just do what she asks you to do. um and She was so sharp, so sharp. um And
00:09:47
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
really counseled me on some challenges that came up related to some race issues while I was in the program. And there were other people too externally, but within my program I'd say um those were the professors who had such like a huge impact on me.
Navigating Racial Issues in Grad School
00:10:05
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Well, since you mentioned it, what were some of the racial issues you experienced in your program?
00:10:12
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um It was, you know, some of us with other students. um Some of it was in class, like one class a professor like called on me to answer a questions specifically having to do with black people.
00:10:28
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I was just like, not only am I not the only black person in this class, ah but we do not speak for all black people.
00:10:33
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:10:37
Blanca Torres, LMFT
You don't speak for the whole Black community, Ksera
00:10:40
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah Right. ah No. ah And there were definitely experiences of, I know I'm competent. Why didn't I get this placement that I wanted?
00:10:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, and it's I was dealing with a lot of white women, typically, who were interviewing me, and I had the experience of being aware that I was experienced as threatening.
00:11:10
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm.
00:11:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And even some people in my program later when I was like trying to more actively make friends, because I was very socially anxious, um said, oh, you know, you're really cool. I thought you were intimidating at first. And like at the time, I don't think I really thought about the racial coding of that kind of thing, you know because people were like, oh, you're just so smart. But I'm like, m everybody in this program is smart.
00:11:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So that can't be like the only reason you feel intimidated by me.
00:11:44
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:11:46
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And.
00:11:47
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And I remember some of those white folks in your program, a couple of them stick out because they would I would see them every once in a while when we'd go out for drinks or something.
00:11:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:11:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah huh
00:11:58
Blanca Torres, LMFT
at the white maleness. I know you're talking about white women, but there's specifically a white male.
00:12:01
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
yeah
00:12:02
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I remember the white maleness of it all.
00:12:02
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:12:05
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I'll never forget I was wearing a necklace that said cunt. Fuck me. Okay, whatever. It's who I am. I'm a Sagittarius. I wear necklaces that say cunt sometimes. And he shakes my hand and he looks at me and he goes, your necklace is very offensive.
00:12:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And just like walked away. Never even gave me a chance to respond.
00:12:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
yeah
00:12:22
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Oh, I still think about that to this day.
00:12:24
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah
00:12:26
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, yeah, and the way they got away with things that they should have never gotten away with. um But yeah, I remember having an incident with another peer and I don't quite remember what it was at this moment, but I had spoken with Dr. Brabender about it and she was like, you know, you need to develop your repertoire of witty responses.
00:12:49
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
to these kinds of things. And um that obviously still sticks with me because I remember sort of thinking, how can I respond in a way that throws the other person off, right? Where I'm not the one who's left feeling off kilter um by something offensive and may also cause them to think about what it is that they said or or did.
00:13:17
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And so that's a thing that I just kind of developed over time.
00:13:22
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But yeah, I'd say that those are some of the some of the struggles, some of the struggles. Yeah.
00:13:31
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Did you experience any moments of failure or major setbacks?
00:13:36
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um Yeah, so. I, we have comprehensive exams and they're like midway through your program to kind of assess where you're at, what you've learned and decide whether or not you get the master's. um And I failed two of my exams and you only had one chance to take them again. And if you didn't pass the second time, then they would hold you back.
00:14:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And ah that, for me, was incredibly challenging. Again, that test-taking thing. ah Because there was just information that was blatantly wrong. like I was a philosophy major. And so we had like these compare-contrast questions, where it's like, compare Aristotle's philosophy to this psychologist.
00:14:27
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
insane, not open book, right? And I answered the question, but because it wasn't what they were looking for, even though I could tell you all about Aristotle in my sleep, like I did not pass that exam.
00:14:41
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I remember going to a meeting and arguing about it and showing them the proof that like, this is wrong information. And I still was made to retake that exam.
00:14:51
Blanca Torres, LMFT
ah
00:14:52
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And, um, i The other part of that experience that was really challenging for me was that a lot of people had already formed their study groups when we had first started studying. And even though like i when I could tell I was struggling with some material, I asked if I could join a group um just so I could get some extra support and help from peers and I was told no by those peers.
00:15:21
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like oh well we've already been in this existing group as if it would have been like such a huge deal to just add someone else and I wasn't even asking to like join every single meeting I just wanted to be able to like get feedback on the area where I knew I was having a hard time, um which was neuropsychology specifically, just the way the topic was taught, it just didn't work for my brain. And um yeah, I was told no. And so I had no one to study with. And I failed two of my and so on the second round, I did co study with somebody else who was in a similar position as me. um But
00:16:04
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I felt, in that moment especially, sort of deeply disconnected from and kind of betrayed by people who I expected that maybe I could rely on um when I needed support.
Experiences of Bias & Favoritism
00:16:20
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, this is kind of maybe this question feels a little bit redundant, but I think I just want to get at it specifically if there's anything specific you want to mention. But in terms of like biases, discrimination or favoritism, what did you witness? What did you experience?
00:16:40
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, I mean, my experience was that, you know, sort of the pretty, I put that in air quotes for those who are not watching the video. And when I say like, you know, standard white American ah women,
00:17:05
Blanca Torres, LMFT
yeah
00:17:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
were very much favorited, you know, and um I had experiences of like speaking up in class, you know, answering questions and then somebody saying the same thing a few minutes later and that person getting praised for their answer and I'm sitting there like what was like, what was wrong with my answer?
00:17:25
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah. What was different about that?
00:17:28
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like what was different about it? um And so I did actually at some point stop speaking up in class because I was just like I'm over being overlooked when I'm really trying hard and participating. um And one thing that really sticks out as an issue that I had with a professor whom you know I was at a site where the supervisor was not experienced in psychological testing and I really really wanted to get that experience and he said well you can do testing here as long as you can find somebody to supervise you and because it was at a child site I approached one of the child people to help me
00:18:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I sent him my first draft of my report and he said it was garbage and he would and he refused to sign off on it and he said he would never sign off on anything that was just so bad and said he wasn't helping me anymore.
00:18:25
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Hmm.
00:18:29
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I was devastated because I was like, well, of course I'm not good at this. This is the first time that I'm doing this. It was my second year of grad school. So two out of five, okay?
00:18:39
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:41
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And he was expecting me to somehow know what to do and refuse to help me because I couldn't do it. Which is just when you really like let that sink in.
00:18:53
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
like I'm not going to help you because it's not good. But I'm asking you for help because I know it's not good.
00:19:00
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right, it's literally your first one.
00:19:03
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Right. And I sat and in the hallway where the teacher's offices were like crying. and um Dr. Prout came by and he was like, come into my office, tell me what happened.
00:19:14
Blanca Torres, LMFT
la
00:19:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I told him and I was just like, you know, this is really narcissistic thing to do. And I was super upset and he was like, listen,
Overcoming Unhelpful Professors
00:19:30
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
like,
00:19:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
you need to prove like, you need to prove him wrong, right? Like, I'm not like this is like your job to do, but more like, if you want to be good at this, you will be good at this. And like, let's think of a way to find somebody who will support you. um And so he did find me help with someone who um is still one of my many mentors today.
00:19:55
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I ended up being really, really, really good at assessment. And it was one of the things that um appealed to um Harvard Medical School, Cambridge Health Alliance, um when I got recruited there from my postdoc.
00:20:12
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And that professor tried to apologize to me in my last year, like right after our, it wasn't commencement.
00:20:24
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Oh, shit.
00:20:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
It was like a pre precom-commencement thing that we had for the program.
00:20:28
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Like a luncheon kind of a war or a war thing.
00:20:30
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
A dinner, yeah.
00:20:31
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, something.
00:20:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
i can't I can't remember what we called it. um And I knew it was because like the only person who asked asked him to speak on his behalf was one of the people who really should have not made it through the program, like had done some really awful things. And so it was sort of like, look at you. Because by that point, many of the students had realized this professor was kind of an asshole, you know? They were like, oh, Ksera you were right. And I'm like, yeah. Because when I was telling people before, they just didn't believe me. And then they ended up having their own negative experiences with this professor. And um they had they were then forced to say like, oh, yeah, you know, but it had already happened to me like quite early on in the program.
Class Activities & Unaddressed Social Issues
00:21:22
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I
00:21:24
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
You know, ah so um and I remember saying, like, I don't accept your apology.
00:21:31
Blanca Torres, LMFT
That's amazing.
00:21:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Because like, if if not for that, i you know, maybe I would have still made it there anyway. But like, I definitely had like a desire to be like, no, like, I want to be good at this thing and I will be good at this thing.
00:21:46
Blanca Torres, LMFT
mhm
00:21:47
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But yeah, that was like another Major. Uh, there are a lot of, there's a lot of stuff.
00:21:56
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, what I mean, what other what other kind of things?
00:21:59
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Ugh, man.
00:21:59
Blanca Torres, LMFT
that you want to, that you feel like you want to share, if any.
00:22:03
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, I mean, this...
00:22:06
Blanca Torres, LMFT
If you don't, I have another question in mind, so.
00:22:09
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, I think... Hmm.
00:22:17
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I think for now, that's okay.
00:22:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Okay, that's valid yeah.
00:22:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, if I, yeah, I'll think, yeah.
00:22:22
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Well, I think, you know, more or less the same question in terms of bias discrimination, um but in regards to like the subject matter that you were learning, what kind of biases or discrimination did did you notice in the source material, in the lectures from your supervisor, right?
00:22:33
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah Yeah.
00:22:43
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Like from the bearers of our field, what did you notice?
00:22:44
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
yeah
00:22:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I think I wasn't, again, like my consciousness about this evolved over time. ah To say that I would look at it in the same way ah now as I did then is not true. ah But certainly it was heavily pathology oriented. And there was no real conversation about systems and how they impact people.
00:23:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
like
00:23:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
It was very individualistic, like the problem is within the person. And I think I noticed the contrast in the material when I attended the conferences.
00:23:32
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Hmm.
00:23:33
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
oh Some conferences where people were having these conversations and thinking about these things, but other conferences or conversations, especially within the psychoanalytic community, ah where the sort of prevailing um Freudian or, and I don't even say that like pejoratively and necessarily,
00:23:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um but like people really not being able to reflect on and think about the way in which the external world plays a role in people's lives.
00:24:11
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm hmm.
00:24:12
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
the you know and And I think the material
00:24:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Didn't it didn't just didn't reflect all people right and it's not possible for it to do so. However, um diversity was very much ah Just a class that we took.
00:24:33
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and that was also a really harmful class to us.
00:24:37
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So yeah, there's just a lot of um
00:24:44
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
interconnectedness of mental health and equity and social justice that was missing from what we were learning.
00:24:54
Blanca Torres, LMFT
What do you mean rifts in the class?
00:24:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah So we had like an activity and for anybody who's been through this they have like those activities where like The game is designed so that people who have like a certain card or color or whatever, no matter what they do, they'll always lose in the game because it's designed to demonstrate inequity.
00:25:15
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So it's like a privilege walk type thing.
00:25:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. hu but i remember i wasn't And I remember I wasn't there for that particular class because I was sick. but I remember everyone was really upset after and people were upset with each other. And whatever it had done, that activity and the way it was handled, like sort of the real life sort of class differences and social issues that existed within our cohort came out through the activity and there was no sort of debrief around it.
00:25:54
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Uh-huh.
00:25:55
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I remember that hanging over the class for a while and me and another peer went to the professor. um Even though I hadn't been there for the specific activity, I went to the professor with this peer and I was like, you need to address this because it has caused actual harm to our group. And i I think that there was a conversation, but I don't remember it really doing the transformative work that it needed to do, the repairing work that it needed to do. And some of those issues lingered like through the rest of our time.
Advocacy & Pressure to Conform
00:26:38
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I mean, and I mean, I'm called to ask you about that because same, there was shit that happened early on in our program, in my program for my my therapy program that cause major rifts throughout the cohort that never resolved.
00:26:56
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So that's why I was really curious about that. And I wonder how often that happens, right?
00:26:59
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ye Probably a lot.
00:27:02
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Well, so I guess moving on a little bit, but really it's all related. um Do you think that there's a pressure to conform conform to certain academic or ideological views in your program?
00:27:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, and it was communicated to me quite clearly because I was often, ah as I said in our last episode, the person like sticking my neck out, standing up for issues.
00:27:28
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm hmm.
00:27:30
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I remember some peers trying to stand up for an issue that occurred with another peer in our class, and they ended up getting chastised and pretty burned for it.
00:27:41
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And so they all decided we're never going to stick our neck out for anything ever again. And I remember thinking, wow, what a privilege it is to decide not to keep acting because it would never occur to me um because like my whole life is just continuing to advocate for myself in all kinds of spaces. And I remember feeling frustrated with peers
00:28:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
because after that incident they were like, we're just not doing anything ever again. And so there was a lot that I would like go to our Dean alone about and say like, Hey, this thing is happening. And it was sort of like, Oh my God, you're in my office again. Like, you know, and so yeah, there was definitely that pressure. And I think because they knew that Dr. Prout was like, you know, pretty supportive and keeping a watchful eye over me, he said, like,
00:28:46
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
There will always be dragons to slay, but is this your dragon? He's like, not everyone is yours. And he's like, I'm interested in you like getting through this program. you know ah The least scathed is possible. And so i i do I am aware that it was like his a communication to me that like I was not safe.
00:29:10
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
not that I felt safe, right, but that he was basically saying, like, I need you to be able to think about protecting yourself more.
Critique of Diversity Efforts
00:29:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And I think at that point,
00:29:26
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
that pressure to conform was pretty high because that, and like I said, that compulsion was always there to be like, I need to do something about this injustice, you know, and our class had decided to do superlatives for graduation, and then they recanted it, but they didn't want to tell me what mine would have been.
00:29:28
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:29:32
Blanca Torres, LMFT
No.
00:29:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And somebody did tell me, and it was like most likely to be righteously indignant. And I actually,
00:29:52
Blanca Torres, LMFT
i'm having mixed feet I'm having a mixed reaction.
00:29:55
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:29:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Part of me wants to be mad about it and the other part of me is like, yeah.
00:29:59
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, I remember feeling both ways.
00:29:59
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:30:01
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like I remember like being offended, but I also remember being like, that's also very true.
00:30:02
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Okay, good.
00:30:10
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But like the word righteous as a modifier is really about a sense of like, you believe you have the right to do this and maybe you don't.
00:30:24
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Because I do think righteous tends to have a negative connotation associated with it. And when I reflect back on it, I'm like, you know, I did actually embrace it for myself.
00:30:39
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm hmm.
00:30:40
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I'm very aware of like sort of the white chastising undertone when applied to a Black person.
00:30:45
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right. Oh, 100 percent, right. It reminds me of. um ah It was we'll talk about it when we get to mine, but someone called someone who I had difficulty with. Had to in a group setting say something she loved about me. And she said my passion.
00:31:09
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And I was immediately enraged. Immediately enraged. And I think it's the same thing. Because I know exactly what you mean by that. And you as a little white woman had to do your little white woman thing and be just sweet and kind and like meh.
00:31:26
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:31:27
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And no one else is going to pick up on this microaggression but me.
00:31:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Exactly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:31:34
Blanca Torres, LMFT
ah Well, so I guess speaking of this, I mean, I think you already answered this, but again, just to get a real direct thing, like how diverse and inclusive did you feel your program was? And i like, I don't even mean the people, like the demographics of the people, but also the and that the source again, the source material, how diverse was that? How diverse were the examples? How diverse? Yeah.
00:31:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, the source material wasn't particularly diverse. I will say though that there was at least a very passing emphasis on making sure that we were familiar with Pamela Hays' is ADDRESSING framework um and thinking about different um dominant and subjugated identities and like not just that of the client, but us as clinicians.
00:32:21
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Okay.
00:32:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And we were trained the to compare and contrast those things in a way that, though superficial,
00:32:36
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I later learned really hadn't it wasn't being done in other programs.
00:32:37
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Hmm.
00:32:41
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And so when I mentioned that framework to people, nobody knew what I was talking about. and um
00:32:51
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Now it's like there's a proliferation of it, especially with like conversations about intersectionality and and Kimberly Crenshaw's work. um And it's it's more prominent in the field and it's it's being thought about as being actively integrated into requirements for our education. But at the time that I was in school,
00:33:12
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
that was not the case. And so I think that the short answer to your question is not much. And also, I still think I got
Power Abuses by Authority Figures
00:33:20
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And others.
00:33:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
more than um other programs might have been doing in that area.
00:33:27
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I had specific professors for whom it was really their passion to integrate that into their work, um also just because of their lived experiences. And so I'm grateful to them for being like incredibly intentional about being more inclusive in their material.
00:33:51
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Good for them.
00:33:52
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
yeah
00:33:58
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Last-ish structured question, because I think I have a second one after this, but do you feel like professors or advisors take advantage of their power in those programs?
00:34:07
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
For sure. Yeah, for sure.
00:34:10
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Like the one that wouldn't help you?
00:34:10
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And yes, yeah, but I also think about supervisors a lot, because like, I think, for the most part, um the experiences, the negative experiences with some professors were outliers for me, like they were very specific people.
00:34:17
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:34:29
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Most of the challenges that I experienced in this area were on clinical training sites.
00:34:36
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I have way too many of these experiences than we have time to talk about, but like I mentioned the thing about dynamics of being a woman, being supervised by white women, and the power issues that would come up there.
00:34:55
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um and being aware that they felt threatened by my knowledge and experience and questions. um Having a supervisor who like said to me once like sex offenders only spoke to me in therapy because they thought I was attractive. um And like it wasn't because I was actually skilled in the work. And this was another white woman.
00:35:22
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um I
00:35:28
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I've had supervisors who threatened to do things, like like burn down my school because they were upset about something that happened from a policy perspective, like in my supervision.
00:35:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And in the beginning, I definitely like, because I was new to the work, I questioned my abilities, I questioned my gut because like I was new. And I sometimes went along with decisions that I didn't feel comfortable going along with because my supervisor told me to do it. um And then later that leading to a really negative outcome. And I wonder, like what would have happened if I had followed like my my little baby developing clinical gut?
00:36:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And I feel like I'm like just going down like a huge list, but I remember asking someone for like external supervision for forensic work. This is a Black man. And the meeting seemed to be going fine. And then near the end of the meeting, he started to hit on me.
00:36:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and was like, you know, you're really attractive, you're very smart. And like, you know, and it was clear to me and I i remember feeling like just terror because I'm like alone with this man in his office.
00:36:49
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:36:49
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I came for to him for help.
00:36:53
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And it was just the ickiest, like, I couldn't get out of there fast enough.
00:36:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
It's gross.
00:36:58
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I remember Dr. Prout was another person that I ended up talking to about that. And he did, like, say, like, if you want to do anything, if you want to, like, um And I opted not to, but um there were just so many abuses of power, both subtle and overt, um that
00:37:23
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
were a part of my experiences at clinical
Reflecting on the Grad School Experience
00:37:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
sites. And I know that that's not unique to me in any particular way. Unfortunately, um I supervise ah now. And one of the things that I do is actively ask my trainees about negative experiences that they have had.
00:37:41
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Oh, yeah.
00:37:42
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And no one not people are not necessarily gonna come out and just tell you that immediately, right? they They need to know that they can trust you. And so I do have like a very particular way that I introduced that topic into my supervision oh because it's so important to me that the power that I have now as a supervisor is not misused.
00:38:10
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And that it can be a reparative experience for people who likely have gone through some really messed up experiences.
00:38:22
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:38:24
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
That was a really long answer to your question. ah Yeah.
00:38:30
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I mean, it's an important one. um It's an important answer. um And I definitely think ah with Gen Z coming up, or already in, and then now the next Gen. No.
00:38:45
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Just Gen Z from early to later, as they come up in this field, I do think the field is going to have to have a reckoning with its abuse of power as professors, as supervisors, et cetera.
00:38:57
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So I do think it's an important one.
00:39:00
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I think it needs to, but I don't know if it will.
00:39:05
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
That's the thing that i that scares me, especially as I keep hearing these stories that my supervisees bring me, and that some of the response to that from other supervisors is like, well, how can you believe what they say, right?
00:39:08
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Hmm. Hmm.
00:39:24
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And it's the same it's the same response as like, I remember saying to someone, I tend to generally believe people when they tell me they've had negative experiences with other clinicians.
00:39:37
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:39:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And someone had said, well, you know, you know, they have this these different things going on, like it might be, you know, their misinterpretation. of the situation.
00:39:48
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And so like the patient gets blamed in the same way that the student gets blamed. you know and And that doesn't mean that people don't have individual culpability. I'm not saying that there are situations that don't exist like that.
00:39:57
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Sure.
00:40:02
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But my point is, I think more often than not, the proliferation of the abuse of power is more dominant than people somehow trying to manipulate folks.
00:40:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
100%. Right, 100%. Yeah.
00:40:25
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Well, anyway, on that note, would you do it? Would you do it again?
00:40:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I would
00:40:34
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But I pause because this gets into something that we will talk about together um after we kind of discussed your experiences.
00:40:48
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the way in which ah mental health training capitalizes on our trauma to
00:40:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm hmm.
00:41:01
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
sort of bring us into the fold of this field without really creating a space for reflection for what we're actually signing up for and why.
00:41:08
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm hmm.
00:41:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And there are different choices that I might have made about my what I did post to graduate. If I had even had the space to think about what is it like to not be a student anymore, I wasn't really prepared for that. And I felt like all my decisions that were made subsequently thereafter were just survival-based decisions. Like, I just need a job. And so I ignored red flags. Even little, like ones that seemed little but really weren't little.
00:41:46
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and ended up in a really shitty first job, you know, and so because I didn't feel like I had the space to to really be choosy.
Post-Grad Challenges & Lack of Preparation
00:41:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, and so I think that like grad school in general leaves you in sort of a survival space and everything else that you're doing after that is about survival.
00:42:00
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm. 100%.
00:42:08
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and And that's not true for everybody, right? Like the somewhat more wealthy people in my program had significantly less to worry about. And that doesn't mean that they didn't go through their own shitty experiences. I know they did, but
00:42:20
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right. But you also didn't have to worry about food.
00:42:23
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
but Right, exactly.
00:42:25
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Or rent.
00:42:26
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Right, there were times where I would be driving on like the last of my tank of gas like it's on empty and I pray that I make it home from my internship site because I have no money to fill up for a couple of days, you know, and so those were the kinds of things that were going on in the background.
00:42:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
in addition to me working like two to three jobs while I was in school, you know, just to have food to eat.
00:42:49
Blanca Torres, LMFT
yeah
00:42:53
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So I think like if I knew that that's what I was going to go through, I don't know if I would have done it. And at the same time, I don't regret the decision.
00:43:05
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I don't regret my career either.
Finding Joy in Reading & Fan Fiction
00:43:08
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
You know, it's just I didn't know what it was going to look like.
00:43:14
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:15
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And like therapy, like therapy, right? You don't even really know what you're signing up for.
00:43:22
Blanca Torres, LMFT
right right yeah and are we doing a whole other episode on yes we are on changing the journey changing the call yeah okay okay i just want to make sure we didn't accidentally skip over that last episode or this episode okay
00:43:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and yeah No, we are doing that, yeah.
00:43:40
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Okay, just making sure I'm sorry, because it's just so important. And I think it's a really important part of your that of your identity and how it's changing, right? Like when we started having conversations about this podcast and like moving away from using the word therapist at all, even though for me, it applies for you, it doesn't. And I mean, it's irrelevant. It's just a label. um But I just want to make sure we didn't miss that. Okay, anything else you want to say or add about your grad school experience?
00:44:09
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I'm sure somebody asks me. I could say a lot about a lot more about it, like um like get into the details of so financial decisions and all of these different things or even like people telling me I couldn't do exactly what I'm doing now. I did have a for a guest speaker professor who came in one day and was like, what do you guys want to do? And I told him I want to have a practice that does both of these things. And she's like, that's not possible. And I was like, well, we have male professors in our program doing that. And so being condescended to by another woman about what I wanted to do with my life. um And I made it happen.
00:44:52
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Was it a white woman?
00:44:53
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Of course it was a white woman, girl.
00:44:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I'm just making sure. I mean, I figured, but I'm just making sure. A couple of a couple of us are undercover white women.
00:44:59
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, yeah. yeah yes
00:45:06
Blanca Torres, LMFT
We're not all agents for for the cause is what I mean.
00:45:09
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, that's true.
00:45:09
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So I just wanted to make sure.
00:45:12
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
That's true.
00:45:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I was gonna say we can do a whole episode on white women telling us how to be women.
00:45:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and
00:45:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:45:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Exactly. um But no, I was gonna say y'all can hang out with us on our Patreon for some of the extra scoop
00:45:28
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:30
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
There's so much to be said, but I think that that that sums it up for me.
00:45:31
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:45:35
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Okay, sounds good. And just like a heads up, I think mine will look a little different because I want to tell y'all the tea of what happened to me.
00:45:43
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
yeah
00:45:46
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um For better or worse, maybe it's my own trauma response, but it might look a little bit different when you join us for my experience. But As always, we wanna practice what we preach and remind you to take a deep breath.
00:46:02
Blanca Torres, LMFT
All right. If breathing is triggering for you, please feel free to just put your hand on your heart or sit this out altogether, whatever you're called to.
00:46:04
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
right.
00:46:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So if you are breathing with us, please take a deep breath in through your nose. One, two, three, four. and out through your mouth slowly like you're breathing through a straw. And let's get into some fucking joy and thriving for this week. Do you wanna go first, Ksera?
00:46:37
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, sure. ah My latest joy is that I've been able to read physical books again.
00:46:45
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yay.
00:46:46
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I've had a really hard time with doing that since COVID.
00:46:48
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Hmm.
00:46:49
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I ah it was started Draco Malfoy and the mortifying ordeals of being in love.
Conclusion & Preview of Upcoming Content
00:46:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And you know, selling your on I know somewhere we'll talk about like the ah the sort of the
00:46:57
Blanca Torres, LMFT
oh and we
00:47:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
the tension of being queer folks ah still in our HP era, but um and especially, you know, that woman being a TuRF
00:47:12
Blanca Torres, LMFT
yeah yeah
00:47:16
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But it's fan fiction, so it doesn't count.
00:47:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But.
00:47:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
fantastic yeah Yes.
00:47:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
It's how we can live in the world without supporting a transphobic twat.
00:47:24
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But that book has been so So that is for giving me a lot of joy right now.
00:47:26
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:47:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
What about you?
00:47:32
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I think this.
00:47:36
Blanca Torres, LMFT
2024 for me was the Dramione year. It was not a pairing I ever cared about. I never really cared about fan fiction. I knew about it, but I just didn't have an understanding of it. And then I got into Manacled
00:47:50
Blanca Torres, LMFT
if you know you know, if you don't, you should.
00:47:52
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
hu Yeah.
00:47:53
Blanca Torres, LMFT
It's off the internet now, though, so good luck. um And then you know I moved further into that ah that specific pairing, which like is a little on the nose, I think, for the two of us.
00:48:05
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I don't know about you. The reason I love it is because it's this super brainy, smart girl and a guy who deeply loves how smart and brainy she is.
00:48:15
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
yeah
00:48:16
Blanca Torres, LMFT
It's a little too on the nose about why I like it.
00:48:17
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Well, what is it also about him transforming into somebody who understands social issues better, right?
00:48:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But anyway, so I think...
00:48:22
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yes!
00:48:26
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yes!
00:48:28
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So that's also great.
00:48:29
Blanca Torres, LMFT
da So yes, my moment of joy and thriving this week is that Ksera loves to DMATmoobil to Draco Malfoy and the mortifying ordeal of being in love because I love that book too.
00:48:39
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I think it's It's my favorite. There's another one that's really close to I called remain nameless that I hope you read too, but yeah.
00:48:47
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I have it on my list. I have it on my list. Don't worry.
00:48:50
Blanca Torres, LMFT
yeah But yeah, the DMATmoobil is just nothing but a pure joy, a deeply heart achingly slow burn in all the delicious ways.
00:48:58
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
yeah
00:48:59
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So yay.
00:49:00
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
so guy you And ah by the way, I used to write fan fiction when I was like in my high school era.
00:49:00
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So that's mine.
00:49:08
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And so somewhere on there, there's like a live journal or whatever. I don't know where it is. as an anime video game person, like this is the world that I live in. So yeah.
00:49:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So with that said, we are looking forward to you joining us for our next episode. We're going to talk about Blanca's experience in grad school.
00:49:29
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Buckle up! and
00:49:34
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Until next time, everybody.
00:49:36
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Bye, Adios!
00:49:40
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Ciao.