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Episode 8: Called to...Our Clinical Persona
16 Plays12 days ago
Who we are and how we show up in the room is often referred to as “clinical persona,” and directly relates to our clinical niche(s). However, it is also wrapped up in power and oppression and messages we were given, either overt or covert, about what was appropriate or acceptable.
Reminder 1: As usual, this episode is not meant for tiny ears.
Reminder 2: We recorded our first few episodes in batches, so our time context may not align with release dates.
Mentions in this episode:
Understanding Therapeutic Neutrality from the Chicago Psychoanalytic Institute
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Music: Calypsonian by Eshi Era (Standard License) Check out their Artist Profile here: Eshi Era
Until next time. REST easy.
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Background
00:00:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Hello, hello.
00:00:22
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Welcome back to Called to Healing. I'm Blanca. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Nevada.
00:00:28
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I am Dr. Ksera Dyette I'm a licensed clinical psychologist in the state of Massachusetts. We're both located in the United States. And we acknowledge that we are settlers on Turtle Island, and we pay our respect to our elders, both past and present, who have stewarded this land for generations.
Theme Introduction: Clinical Personas
00:00:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah We are so excited for this conversation, which dovetails off of what we talked about in our last episode. um And we're going to be talking a little bit about clinical personas today.
00:01:05
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and think we're jumping right in unless there was any. oh we do have housekeeping, housekeeping announcements, right? Yes. ah So just quick announcements. We do have a Patreon. We've mentioned this before.
00:01:17
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So we'd love to see you over there because we have some good, good offerings for folks, ah particularly clinicians. So please pop over there. And if Patreon is not your thing, we do have a one-time donation link. And you can find both of these in our show notes and also on our Instagram.
00:01:34
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Was there anything else, Blanca?
00:01:36
Blanca Torres, LMFT
No, I think that's it. how um Do support us, though. It helps us stay ad-free. We want to keep better hell out of your ears.
00:01:43
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yes.
00:01:45
Blanca Torres, LMFT
ha um Yeah, throw us the money, you guys. Come on. in ah Life is expensive.
00:01:54
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Well, and making a podcast isn't cheap, not just the labor that we put into it, but also some of the operating costs. And as Blanca said, like, we don't want any sleazy ads to be a part of this
Defining Clinical Personas
00:02:07
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
podcast. And so please, please, please throw us some coin.
00:02:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:02:12
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And we'll be sure to keep this clip handy if we ever do decide to do ads so we can play it and talk about growth and changing your mind and how all those things are okay.
00:02:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Well, and we've already kind of talked about it, right? Which is that if we do decide to do it, we would be intentional about what we would choose. So we've thought about it, y'all.
00:02:25
Blanca Torres, LMFT
ah
00:02:33
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:02:34
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
We try to think about it.
00:02:37
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah. So anyway, what brings us?
00:02:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So with that said, go ahead.
00:02:40
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Oh, yeah. you said you say You say it. You say it. Mm-hmm.
00:02:44
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and Sure. So we're going to be talking about clinical personas or a clinician personas today. um And this kind of dovetails off of the conversation that we had about our clinical niches.
00:02:59
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And we found it hard when we were having that conversation to sort of keep persona out of that conversation because it overlaps, but we felt like it deserved its own episode.
00:03:12
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And so like last time, we're gonna start with a definition. We're back with Merriam Webster. And we're going to just start with personas, the plural definition. And if you're watching us on YouTube, I'm going to be looking up because I'm going to read this out.
00:03:29
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So an individual social facade or front that especially in the analytic psychology of Carl Gustav Jung reflects the role in the life the individual is playing. And they compare it to anima, which is an individual's true inner self.
00:03:46
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
that in Carl Jung's psychoanalytic psychology reflects archetypal ideas of conduct.
Assumptions and Training in Therapy
00:03:54
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And then the secondary definition is the personality that a person, such as an actor or politician, projects in public. So it's an image.
00:04:04
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Given that definition, Blanca, what does clinical persona mean to us?
00:04:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Well, for me, and i will say, this is not what I learned in my therapy program, in my mental health practitioner training program.
00:04:25
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But to me, my clinical persona is how I show up, who I am. When you turn to say, you know what, my therapist said the funniest thing and the way that you might replicate what I said to your friends Or maybe what I wear or how I react or just how I show up, just who I am, who the person Blanca the therapist is to my clients. That's what I think clinical persona is.
00:04:52
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, yeah. And I would say that i have arrived at a similar definition. um But when we were talking about this episode, really for us, part of the conversation was like the intersection of your clinical persona and oppression, like coming up in training, what we were told about how clinicians are supposed to ah behave or act.
00:05:08
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:05:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
That's essentially it in a nutshell. And that includes a lot of different things. And so like when you think about what you were told, what did that include?
00:05:28
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Well, when we think about what, when I think about what I was told a clinical persona is in the, in the program I was in, it was just someone who was very,
00:05:39
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Blank slate. Doesn't react. Tell me more about that. Very calm, very centered. And sure, now i think about it as my nervous system being lent to others, but that's not how we were taught to do it.
00:05:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
We weren't taught how to do it, how to manage it. Just be there and be a blank slate and sit there and have your
00:06:05
Blanca Torres, LMFT
notepad and pen out and writing notes and nodding along and small tiny little prompts to get your client going.
The Role of Neutrality in Therapy
00:06:14
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So more or less that I would say just this, you know, we keep saying blank slate, but just blank. I just think of this blank person. This is an avatar that's just sitting there just kind of like every once in a while.
00:06:29
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, yeah, um for sure, for sure. And like, can you say a little bit more about lending your nervous system? I know we're jumping ahead, but like, I don't want to forget that you said it because, yeah tell it, tell it, like, say a little bit more about that.
00:06:45
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Well, the wyt exclusionist mainstream way we're taught about it is just to remain calm. Just be in the room, be calm in the room, be relaxed. Don't get activated by what your client is saying.
00:07:00
Blanca Torres, LMFT
All these things, which are not inherently wrong or untrue. Actually, those things are very true. But what what's really happening is I'm letting my client borrow my nervous system, right?
00:07:11
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And so while my client is sitting there maybe talking about some horrible trauma they've experienced, that I'm in tune to them and I'm breathing and I'm slowing down so that they can go ahead and have the reaction that they need to have and have the space that they're having.
00:07:33
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And I'm just this calm anchor point that
00:07:37
Blanca Torres, LMFT
and the on the horizon, just sitting there. God, the mixed metaphors. But you know what I'm saying?
00:07:42
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think what it means to lend our nervous systems, even co share is, I think, part of the decolonized frame, right?
00:08:00
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And we'll talk about that a little bit more. But yeah, I mean, therapeutic neutrality, blank slate, really specifically, when I was thinking about the intersection of oppression with this topic is like, it assumed that we could hide certain things, right?
00:08:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like that conceptualization of it,
00:08:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
doesn't make room for the fact that I can't hide that I'm a black person, right? ah Feminine presenting, like all of these different things. And so it really felt, especially when I started my practice, like something that just...
00:08:34
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
didn't fit, including all of the other things like your personality, how you react, like how you dress. I remember like, you know, psychoanalytic people wear a lot of scarves and flowy clothing was like a stereotype and like cognitive behavioral therapy folks have very like nice straight pressed pants and crispy white shirts and And I don't know if you ever like had those conversations, but I remember like how you dressed being a part of what people talked about, about even communicating what your clinical orientation was, your theoretical orientation.
00:09:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, I don't think we got as specific as you as you did but certainly that exists. and And oof how do I say this in the most non-problematic way possible? I don't think it's possible. I'm just going to say it.
00:09:31
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I think there was a divide, at least in my cohort, between the people who were showing up to to being a therapist in the pencil skirt and heels or in the crisp pants and the crisp shirt white shirt and very like professional. And then the people that were kind of showing up as we were.
00:09:51
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um and I think divide is a strong word. Please do not um take that to heart. to By divide, I don't mean like chasm. I just mean, it it's a vibe.
00:10:05
Blanca Torres, LMFT
It's a vibe and it's a choice. There's nothing wrong with that vibe or with that choice. It's just not mine. um But certainly.
00:10:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And the scarves and the and the in the cardigan, and that was ours. For us, maybe maybe it was just a difference in discipline. But with marriage and family therapy, the big joke was like, what what's your favorite cardigan? What favorite flowy? Yes, the flowy
Impact of Societal Norms on Therapists
00:10:28
Blanca Torres, LMFT
outfit, 100%.
00:10:30
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, you know, the word that I would use is delineation, right? Which was sort of also naturally a part of people gravitating towards different theoretical orientations, right?
00:10:43
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Because then you end up in maybe the same continuing education programs, conference spaces, and then you get, um you know, sort of pulled into the culture of those spaces, right?
00:10:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
which does dictate a certain sort of unspoken rules about how you dress and how you show up, right?
00:10:59
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm-hmm.
00:11:04
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like the folks who were doing business and psychology, they were expected to show up and look a certain way.
00:11:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And I was often showing up it across multiple spaces as myself, in whatever that meant. and And that was always looked upon as something that people commented upon um that I had mixed feelings about, right? But definitely I think that there's like subtle communication or maybe not so subtle sometimes.
00:11:35
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um Oh, and you reminded me.
00:11:36
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Sorry, I'm having like a bunch of different thoughts, but
00:11:38
Blanca Torres, LMFT
You're good.
00:11:39
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
this so This reminds me about like we had a conversation one time about someone who didn't get an internship placement because she showed up to that placement in bright orange pants.
00:11:51
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I remember that being like a conversation that happened that people were like, oh, yeah, can you believe that she did that? and I remember thinking, like, why is that such a problem? mean, I knew why it was considered a problem, but also it just felt kind of ridiculous to me.
00:12:12
Blanca Torres, LMFT
What's her positionality? Is she, was this person?
00:12:15
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah Well, she so this was a white woman. This was a white woman.
00:12:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Oh.
00:12:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. But but i'm but what I'm saying is is that, like, these these communications, right, about how we're supposed to show up,
00:12:30
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
are very much on the table for a lot of folks. And if we're talking about intersectionality, right, how are women, you know, or feminine presenting folks policed and how they're showing up, right?
00:12:43
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um Or even hair color and all of these different things. Like I remember there were all kinds of ways that I would have loved to have shown up, but i implicitly understood that like it would have been frowned upon, you know?
00:12:56
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right. Well, tell me a little bit more about that, because Ksera just especially with your like your positionality and your identities, because I will say it seems like in my training program, it wasn't quite as severe, which I do think makes sense if you look at just the the difference between like psychology and marriage and family therapy. The approaches are, we all use a lot of the same tools, but the theoretical approaches are very different.
00:13:20
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But then if I'm taking it even further, there is a certain status that That comes with saying you're a psychologist versus saying you're a therapist. There's that layer.
00:13:31
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And then there's a layer I can't possibly understand as someone who's not black, whose hair doesn't, isn't called into question professionally one way or the other. so
00:13:42
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I know this wasn't on our, you know, pre-planned, ah but what is that like for you as a multiply marginalized person and having to worry about what your hair looks like or or that day or that week or whatever?
00:14:00
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I don't know.
00:14:01
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I mean obviously stressful that's the very straight to the point way of saying it um but like more specifically at the time thinking about oh it would be better if my hair was straight for this interview and
00:14:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Things like that and like how much it actually takes to get my hair in that kind of state that would be considered, quote, presentable and professional to white folks um and obsessing about it so much.
00:14:33
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And like now I'm at the point in my life where like if you're watching this video on YouTube, like I'm wearing like a grayish wig. And there was a time where I would have been super concerned about like, oh, somebody sees this or they're going to think it's unprofessional.
00:14:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And it's like, I'm just, I'm at the point where these things are like not a part of my life in the same way. um a little bit still in the forensic setting, I should say, because that's a whole nother, you know, testifying all of that.
00:15:04
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:15:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But like, yeah, I remember really obsessing about it a lot.
00:15:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And then wondering, like, did I not wear the right thing? Or was this not, you know, and it was just, it was constant. It was constant, constant, constant, constant.
00:15:22
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And even in my first ah job out of grad school, after postdoc. um I remember them sending us to get photos taken. And they were very prescriptive about what we should have our hair looking like.
00:15:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And that picture does not look anything like me. Like in so many different ways. It isn't what I would really wear. My hair is like super straight, slicked back.
00:15:49
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like it just, yeah, it didn't look like me.
00:15:54
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
It didn't look like me.
00:15:56
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Which maybe i'm i'm I'm taking on something I don't need to be taking But I and felt like through my training program, we really had to look inward a lot about like how we're showing up and how that affects clients, which is already like in and of itself, dysregulating and upsetting and all the things.
00:16:21
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But then to also add on to that, like, oh, I have to think about my hair. I mean, that's a whole other layer of difficulty, I think, added to the
Maintaining Human Connection in Therapy
00:16:33
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Answering the call to healing.
00:16:34
Blanca Torres, LMFT
ah
00:16:37
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah You're hilarious. Yeah, no, we had like one of our early like first year seminars or whatever was on professional development and it included like appropriate things to wear, you know.
00:16:48
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And I mean, we could probably have a whole episode that's just about that and like the communication and like being in different settings and the considerations that we make.
00:16:58
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. that are partly about policing, but also partly about considering certain factors of different populations that we might be working with. So, yeah, it's it's a very nuanced conversation, but I remember that being, like, you know, afros are not considered professional.
00:17:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, it was a very clear message, right? Nobody said that, but it was very clear. Like, we wouldn't need to have the HAIR Act
00:17:27
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:17:27
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
It still exists anymore.
00:17:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um
00:17:32
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And for those of you not watching, there was a massive eye roll. Several massive eye rolls during this
00:17:35
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah Yeah. But those things wouldn't exist if what I was saying wasn't true.
00:17:41
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:17:41
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Right. Like it wouldn't need to exist legislatively to protect us from that kind of discrimination.
00:17:42
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:17:47
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:17:47
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But long story short, I mean, really what Blanca and I like what we're talking about is like the ways in which these messages about how clinicians are supposed to show up, mental health practitioners are supposed to show up, just trains the human out of us.
00:18:03
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
all the way down to like people not being able to tell like what are reasonable decisions for a clinician to make. If a client suffers like a major loss or things like that, or like even whether or not it's appropriate to cry in the session with your client, like all of these different things. Whereas like,
00:18:29
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I'm like, man, sometimes I'm like, yeah, I'm crying with you too. And my client will say something like, you know, I'm so relieved because I just, this just felt like so much.
00:18:39
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I know that you're really with me and like, yeah, the, our ideas about clinical persona trains the human out of us.
00:18:42
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:18:50
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, absolutely. Do you cry? You say you do cry in session with your clients when you're so moved?
00:18:54
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I have. Yeah. And yeah, for sure.
00:18:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
for sure. I mean, It hasn't happened like a lot in my career. And, you know, I've been running a business for like six years now. um But when it has happened, it's because... that's what was going to happen, you know?
00:19:10
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:19:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um and it's not like, I'm not centering myself in any way.
00:19:15
Blanca Torres, LMFT
No.
00:19:15
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
just, I'm like being a human with another human.
00:19:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:19:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like this is human work. And that's what I meant when I said like, sometimes like the, our nervous systems are existing together in a space.
Modern Perspectives on Therapeutic Neutrality
00:19:28
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Right. I think about even like the work that I used to do with a complex trauma, complex PTSD, like, um, and dissociative identity disorder, I could feel, i could feel when my client was dissociating.
00:19:43
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like it wasn't just a thing that I could see, I could feel it. And other folks will talk about that, but you feel the shifts in the room because this is a space that you're inhabiting together, you know?
00:19:54
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And so when we sort of over clinical it for lack of a better way of saying, saying it we're really robbing the therapeutic relationship of something deeply important and human so yeah
00:20:08
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah. yeah I have cried with my clients also.
00:20:15
Blanca Torres, LMFT
yeah And yeah, i do find it. Yeah, it's not about you. You can't like wail.
00:20:21
Blanca Torres, LMFT
and Right. And it can't be about you. The client can't be now comforting you. But joining your client in a powerful moment. I don't know. i It's one of my favorite moments, I think, as a therapist is anytime I've been moved to tears with my clients.
00:20:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And listen, we could wail together, right? Like, that's sort of like what i was saying is, like like, really, truly liberated practice, like, understands that we are humans in the room together and and still trusts that we will still be able to do our jobs, right?
00:20:40
Blanca Torres, LMFT
That's true, too.
00:20:49
Blanca Torres, LMFT
no yeah right
00:20:58
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, that's really fundamentally what it is about for me. Like, I can still be a human with this person and I can still be there for them in the way that they need me to be.
00:21:07
Blanca Torres, LMFT
yeah completely
00:21:08
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And yeah we we can dig into that some more. But, you know, what i was the reason why I wanted to have this particular conversation is that. the Chicago Psychoanalytic Institute has rolled up in the playground here and said, Hey, y'all, like you got this whole blank slate therapeutic neutrality definition wrong, wrong.
00:21:37
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And we're going to put this in the show notes. And I apologize it's a little bit lengthy, but I'm going to go through this because we want to talk about this. But they have this guide to understanding therapeutic neutrality. And it's like, discover the truth about it.
00:21:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Discover the truth. And so they talk about the evolution of it in and that it's been widely misunderstood. Specifically, quote, the mischaracterization of neutrality began with the translation challenges of Freud's original work.
00:22:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
When Sigmund Freud described the ideal therapeutic stance, he used the German word indifferenz apologize. I'm not saying that accented. Suggesting impartiality rather than emotional detachment.
00:22:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And they say they practice that at their institute. And they go on to say that James Strachey, which I forget to look up what his background was, but he translated to neutrality in the English Standard Edition of Freud's works, which contributed to this long standing misunderstanding.
00:22:39
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And combined with Freud's metaphorical comparisons of analysts to surgeons or mirrors, these factors created the inaccurate image of therapists sitting in stony silence.
00:22:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So what you sort of said at the beginning of the episode, Blanca.
00:22:54
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:22:54
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And authentic, they argue, they go as far as to argue that authentic therapeutic neutrality combines a non-judgment with genuine interest and compassion.
00:23:04
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yes.
00:23:04
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
This balanced approach creates a space for patients to explore their experiences while feeling supported and understood. Effective analysts remain closely attuned to patients' growth potential throughout treatment. And then it goes on to talk about the ethical boundaries of it and modern applications of it.
00:23:23
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
so Blanca, how do you feel about this definition? Do you think they go far enough? Like, what's it stirring
00:23:34
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Well, I feel a little bit heard, seen, right? Because i do think that you can show up as you are
00:23:49
Blanca Torres, LMFT
and still have impartiality. So when I hear you say impartiality, all I'm hearing is like,
00:23:58
Blanca Torres, LMFT
God, how do I place this in a professional way? You know what? Fuck it. People are entitled to their self-destruction, right? And so what that means is I can have all the love and kindness and desire support for a client, but regardless of what choices they make, I'm going to keep showing up for them.
00:24:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So that's how I hear the impartiality, that you get to show up, the client gets to show up as they are with the choices they've made, with the life they want to live, and I'm going to keep showing up
00:24:32
Blanca Torres, LMFT
regardless. Right. So that's how I hear the impartiality piece. Does it go far enough? I don't know. i think I would, I don't know. i think for where we're at right now in the conversation, I like it. I think it makes way more sense than what we've been taught.
00:24:48
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right. And what was the last part that you said? it it was impartiality and genuine what?
00:24:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, so authentic therapeutic neutrality combines non-judgment with genuine interest and compassion.
00:25:02
Blanca Torres, LMFT
yeah And you can't demonstrate that as a blank slate. You just can't. It makes no sense. What do you think about it, though?
00:25:13
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's still, you know, the usual clinically language, but, you know, it's, yeah.
00:25:20
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So clinical ease.
00:25:23
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But I do think that if this is what I had heard in my training, that I might not have felt so much inner turmoil about showing up as my authentic self.
00:25:37
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
especially because I've experienced the harm of this misunderstanding as a client of an analytic therapist. And it's not just analytic therapists specifically, but like, this is like, I'm using this example because one psychoanalytic thought and thinking and theoretical thinking,
00:26:02
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And conceptualization of cases is kind of how I've always approached a lot of my work, which is why I had pursued an analyst for my first therapist. And the constant challenge that I had in that relationship was that I never really knew how I was affecting
Cultural Sensitivity and Feedback in Therapy
00:26:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
things in our conversations and without like sharing too much about like the specifics, i just given the life that I've lived and the things that I've gone through, whether or not my perceptions of those experiences were accurate um has always been a constant question, especially as a black person, constantly gaslighted um,
00:26:44
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and placed in situations where I've been made to feel like I i somehow, like what I was saying wasn't really happening. Right.
00:26:53
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So that sort of racialized understanding of those experiences was something that I needed to know was being understood and how, and there was no feedback to really understand say like, yeah, this is this is how I feel about this thing, right?
00:27:13
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, so it was a constant challenge.
00:27:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And so when I switched therapists and I did experience, you know, this genuine interest and compassion and curiosity and also attunement, um it just felt so much different.
00:27:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
It was so different. It was so different.
00:27:35
Blanca Torres, LMFT
It is really different. and And that actually reminds me of something that happened with a client just recently where I had a reaction to something. And then I was like, you know what? I apologize.
00:27:45
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I reacted before you finished the story. And she was like, no. no That's exactly what I needed. That's what I needed.
00:27:57
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I needed to know that my that I was explaining the situation. How do I... Because she didn't say these words, obviously.
00:28:06
Blanca Torres, LMFT
She needed to hear that validation of her experience. Whereas if I had sat there quietly like this, like we're taught just,
00:28:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
she was going to continue the narrative in her head that maybe the situation, her reaction was unwarranted or she's crazy or she's misinterpreting or she's blah, blah, blah. Where none of that really ultimately matters. If my, it's not true, but my client,
00:28:35
Blanca Torres, LMFT
needed to hear ah validation about her situation in that moment and being a blank slate wasn't going to accomplish any of that.
00:28:43
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, not just hear, but see, right? Like I've worked with children for a very long time
00:28:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um and they pick up on all kinds of little things, little things, right?
00:28:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And even with my adult clients, like because they're so used to, like, I remember because I thought like blankness is what we were supposed to do. i didn't really do a whole lot with my face. And I remember client um who ah was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, like as she came in. So that was not my diagnosis.
00:29:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um Had said to me after a couple of sessions, like, you're really nice, but I'm just not really feeling like this is working. and don't really get like a whole like I don't really know how you feel about me or what's happening here.
00:29:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and And at the time, I think I was like supervised in a way that like I was led to believe like that was her problem only.
00:29:42
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Versus what I later came to understand this, like, no, like. There are some folks, a lot
Authenticity vs. Clinical Personas
00:29:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
of folks, right? But there are particular groups of people, too, who like they want like, they want to see that you're a human, having human reactions.
00:29:58
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I can still have a conceptualization all kinds of ways that I'm thinking about and being curious about what's going on with them. But, like, yeah, I mean, i think I've become much more – I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but – become more emotive as um I've challenged that message that we've had.
00:30:22
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And so since we're getting into it a little bit, um you know, how do you think, like, and maybe this doesn't even apply, all right? Like, does your clinical persona differ from your authentic self, if at all?
00:30:43
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I don't think that it does.
00:30:47
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I think very much what you see is what you get when I show up to the podcast, when I show up with my friends, when I show up as a therapist. And now that's not to say that there aren't appropriate boundaries.
00:31:03
Blanca Torres, LMFT
right I'm not my client's best friend. i Or really more than that, i'm they're not mine. And so no, I'm not going to show up and say, oh my God, can you believe what my partner said?
00:31:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
You know what I'm saying? So so when I say that there's not that difference, I don't mean that. um But I mean who I am, maybe the jokes I tell, how I say things, when I say things, how I react.
00:31:31
Blanca Torres, LMFT
There's not that much of a difference. It really is really authentic for me. What about you?
00:31:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there was a time when um it was different, which I was alluding to. um And now it's not that different.
00:31:52
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
i would still i would still say I have contextual self.
00:31:56
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm-hmm.
00:31:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
you've If you're in you know acceptance and commitment therapy folks, like there's always something I'm negotiating in or out of the room, but that's true across all contexts.
00:32:10
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And the decision-making around that really just depends on different factors depending on different situations. And I think, you know, getting into like questions about safety, like what feels safe to bring into the room, what parts don't, and then like safety for whom, right? Like, is it safety for me? Is it safety for my client?
00:32:33
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, am I not bringing in something because like, its It's just better that I don't, right? It's not really in in their in their best interest or in the service of them.
00:32:46
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Or more recently... Am I not bringing in something because I'm still trying to figure out how I'm responding and processing it?
00:32:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So to be more specific um with everything that's going on in the country um and the personal concerns I've had regarding my own safety, like as I'm wrestling with that conversation,
00:33:12
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
you know, I might tap in or out ah with a client, um, depending on where I'm at with it for myself. Um, so it's not that I'm not my authentic self. It's just that like what I'm choosing to bring in depends on like some of those considerations.
00:33:28
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I don't know if that happens for you.
00:33:33
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Absolutely. And I think that's kind of what I mean about boundaries, right? If I'm waking up that day and I'm like,
00:33:46
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I need to leave this country immediately, if not sooner.
00:33:52
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I'm not starting with my clients like, this today I'm thinking about whether, you know what I'm saying? Like, yes, there's a constant negotiating, in and outside of the therapy room, of course. But I think again, the core, the core of who I am, um, I feel very safe bringing into my, um, my space as a therapist and,
00:34:20
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I think it's safe enough for my clients. Although I'm sure there's been clients who didn't vibe with me or maybe didn't feel the safest or, you know, I think that's par for the course, but yeah.
00:34:33
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And that changes from moment to moment, right, too.
00:34:35
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like it's like any relationship, the things like just like things would happen between friends, like things are going to happen between client and therapist.
00:34:46
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And just in case y'all were listening to what Blanca said and thought like the implication, and I don't want to assume, but like I don't think your implication was that you wouldn't say I'm thinking about leaving the country, right?
00:34:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
It's more like decisions about Because like that's part of conversations that happen,
00:35:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Listen, these are conversations that are happening.
00:35:08
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:35:08
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And people are like, do you feel the same way, too? And I'm like, yeah, this is like get out plus you know times a thousand, right? like So it doesn't mean that we're not having...
00:35:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
real full conversations. I think it's more like we might be negotiating what that feels like for us and for what purpose, right?
00:35:24
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:35:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah So just wanted to clarify that. Is that fair?
00:35:34
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
00:35:36
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:37
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:35:37
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um I think we did kind of talk quite a bit about like our training, um but I was wondering specifically like
00:35:45
Blanca Torres, LMFT
yeah
00:35:49
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Is there any, and this might go back to like your episode, like the conversation that we had about your grad school experience, but which parts of your authentic self were kind of snuffed out for while, if at all, because of some of the things that happened?
00:36:08
Blanca Torres, LMFT
It's interesting because I've been thinking about that of as we've been talking about it. So it's interesting that you asked me that. And
00:36:20
Blanca Torres, LMFT
a lot of parts of me were snuffed out during my program. And it snuffed out in the way that I showed up in the classroom. the way I showed up to our clinical supervisions as students, but it never, maybe never is a strong word, but in my opinion, it didn't really change the way I showed up with clients because
00:36:54
Blanca Torres, LMFT
i don't know how to not show up as myself. I don't know how to not do that, especially on a one-on-one space with a client, right?
00:37:08
Blanca Torres, LMFT
There are certain parts of myself I kept quiet that I made smaller. There's questions I didn't ask. There's clients I didn't ask for support.
00:37:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
in the clinical space in the clinical supervision spaces because of the way that I was treated, but um not the way I showed up with my clients. I was still myself with my clients because i think it's also important to just remember, recontextualize that I went back to school to become a therapist at 32 years old Right.
00:37:40
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And so I'd already and and at 32 years old and having a professional career. Right. i I had a career when I decided to shift and become a therapist. So I've had professional experience. I think that that's part of it, too. I think maybe had I been 10 years younger, what happened to me in my program would have been devastating in more ways than it already was. Right.
00:38:05
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So I think I've always shown up as myself or my clients. But yeah, they certainly, right?
00:38:10
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Like I think one of the things I mentioned in my grad school episode was that I had a – it was a black male professor who said that um
00:38:24
Blanca Torres, LMFT
my culture, my feminism and my eye ah on my culture affect me negatively as a therapist. so it I, had I been younger and I had heard that, I think it would have affected me way, way, way more than it does now or the way that it did.
00:38:47
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
What does that even mean?
00:38:49
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Which part?
00:38:53
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
It's just so ridiculous.
00:38:54
Blanca Torres, LMFT
That my feminism and my culture like affect how I show up in the room.
00:38:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:38:58
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Like, yeah, no shit.
00:38:59
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I'm not asking. Yeah. I'm like, what does that even mean? Like, yeah.
00:39:01
Blanca Torres, LMFT
No, I,
00:39:03
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:39:03
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, it's meaningless because of course it does because yours does too.
00:39:10
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
huh
00:39:11
Blanca Torres, LMFT
You know, it was it was meaningless feedback um and it wasn't remotely helpful. Like I would love, if if there was something helpful behind that, I would love to know what that is. i would love to know the reframe there.
00:39:28
Blanca Torres, LMFT
If it's maybe Blanca, you make assumptions about men. Based in your experiences as a woman. Okay. I still have an issue with that, but at least that's something I can work with.
00:39:39
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right. Because then you can say, Blanca, your trauma is affecting the way you're showing up
Training Environments and Personal Growth
00:39:45
Blanca Torres, LMFT
in the room. This is counter transference. How do we work on that? But that's not what was said.
00:39:50
Blanca Torres, LMFT
It was specifically that it was my culture and my feminism.
00:39:54
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So, no, I got, I think I got lost in the sauce there.
00:39:55
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:39:58
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
No, but I did want to follow up on something you said, though, because I um i appreciate that you brought in the the age context as well, because I was 20.
00:40:08
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:40:08
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
was 20 when I started grad school. ah So I turned 21 while I was in the beginning.
00:40:15
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:40:16
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Your brain wasn't even fully developed.
00:40:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah yeah ah Well, my brain was. so What do you mean? I'm
00:40:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah a Virgo. Come on.
00:40:30
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But I um and it was five years. It was a it was five years of that.
00:40:35
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:40:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And how long has your program been?
00:40:40
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Two and a half.
00:40:41
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, not that I'm saying that necessarily changes things, right? um But it is it is it is a long time to go.
00:40:46
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But doesn't
00:40:48
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Well, I mean, I want to hold sort of the age factor here, right? That like someone younger going to your program, experiencing what you experienced probably could still come out, you know, just as scathed as I did.
00:41:02
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But five years is a long time, plus a postdoc. that was also oppressive in its own ways, which like that's its own other conversation.
00:41:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So six years of training is what I did.
00:41:17
Blanca Torres, LMFT
and and And six years of wyt exclusion six years of telling you the way you look and see the world are wrong.
00:41:22
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yes.
00:41:28
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And so that that's why i I do think that that's seven.
00:41:30
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
seven though.
00:41:33
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Seven.
00:41:33
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Because the group practice job i was at, they did the same thing
00:41:38
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right. And though my grad school experience was really horrible in a lot of ways I was in a different developmental stage.
00:41:49
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I also had a ton of friends, have a ton of friends who were already mental health practitioners, you included, where I could get perspective, where they could just hang on, just hang on, just get through it, just get through it, get the information you need to pass the damn licensing exam and get through it. And I think that that allowed me to hold on to enough of myself. Yes.
00:42:15
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I have, I still have anxiety about our podcast and how some of my former classmates or professors are going to hear it, what they're going to do about That is there.
00:42:28
Blanca Torres, LMFT
i can't make that go away overnight. But i I do think that some of the context we're talking about allowed me to hold on to enough of myself. That it didn't change that much about how I was showing up in the room as my authentic self.
00:42:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
For sure.
00:42:46
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. And I didn't have access to therapy. Like that was another thing. Cause like, yeah.
00:42:47
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So for what it's worth.
00:42:50
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Oh, right. And my therapist. My therapist.
00:42:54
Blanca Torres, LMFT
God, the work that woman did to get me through that program.
00:42:58
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, I mean, a lot of us couldn't afford it. We couldn't afford it.
00:43:02
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um And we petitioned the hell out of the program to try to get like local therapists to like offer low fee, even if it was just one person that they would take.
00:43:14
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:43:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
At least we did not succeed with that. So, yeah, I had to just hold on. i knew I wanted to see a therapist, but I could barely put gas in my tank.
00:43:23
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And so the first thing I did when I had like reasonable insurance out of grad school was get a therapist. ah So, yeah, there was a lot of like, yeah, the kind the developmental stage plus all of those other factors.
00:43:36
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Privilege, right?
00:43:37
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Mm hmm.
00:43:38
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Being 32, going back, I was living at home too so that I could afford to go to school. That makes a big difference. The fact that um I did have a therapist, I had the money to afford a therapist to get through.
00:43:52
Blanca Torres, LMFT
So I don't know.
00:43:54
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:54
Blanca Torres, LMFT
There's a lot of, yeah, yeah.
00:43:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. And I think, you know, if we could sort of,
00:44:03
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
i mean, part of the reason for this podcast too is to address this, right? And I know that other folks are starting to do similar things as well.
00:44:15
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But like for folks to know, especially if we don't have access to anything else, right? Like what it could look like for this to be to feel different and be better and not be steeped in wyt exclusion and all of this oppressive nonsense.
00:44:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Right. And especially like the messages about what it means to be a credible healer. Right. and
00:44:41
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:44:41
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah you know i've you know, I've gone to tons of conferences over the years, even since I was a student, and i just watched so many people use that idea of persona and credibility, whether consciously or not to keep people in treatment for extended periods of time without really offering them anything.
00:45:10
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:45:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Right. this happens at analytic conferences where I would ask questions and I'd be like, so like, why didn't you refer this person for this? Right. And you won't have to end your analytic treatment. It's just, this is a specific thing that they need help with. And there's like this almost possessive, like, what's the word I'm looking for? Like,
00:45:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
kind of keeping people within these theoretical interventions, like these interventions, because that's what we've been taught without really thinking more expansively about what is it that people actually need.
00:45:38
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Ownership.
00:45:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And it may not even be a referral to another therapist. It could be that, damn, this person needs to be connected with like housing resources or, ah you know, like whatever.
00:45:58
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But like,
00:46:02
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
All of this feeds into how insular we are about how we approach people.
00:46:10
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:46:12
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Anyway.
00:46:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:15
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and So, I mean, we've established that, like, we've changed, right?
00:46:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
yeah
00:46:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, well, you're you. I've changed a lot since over the course of the years. But you've changed because of different developmental points that you've been at.
00:46:33
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I'm wondering, like...
00:46:37
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
if as people are listening to this, because we talk about a lot about like how we just show up as ourselves, authentic selves and what that means. And like for folks who are like newer in the field or maybe they're still in training um and they're not even sure like what this looks like and they're hearing us and they're like, yeah, but we have clinical responsibilities.
00:47:00
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:47:00
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
How do we help them think about this topic and balancing that?
00:47:10
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I think I just would want to know why having clinical responsibility
00:47:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
changes or negates or otherwise modifies being your authentic self.
00:47:26
Blanca Torres, LMFT
You know, like, I don't know what that means, really.
00:47:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think we could think about it from like the more sort quote ethical standards and guidelines to.
00:47:44
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
mandated reporting for those of us who are licensed, which is a really awful, dicey topic because of the carceral state and its involvement in care, ah which that's a whole nother conversation um that I think some folks are having maybe better than we could.
00:48:03
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um But we I promise you, we both think about it a lot.
00:48:08
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Um, but yeah, I'm thinking about just like even like gift giving, you know, and things like that. I'm not, that I'm talking about like, oh, you know, I'm out here buying everybody a bunch of things, but you know, I just think about like how sometimes the arrangement is set up that sometimes clients feel scared to bring
00:48:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I'm not even just talking clients. I'm thinking like supervisees as well. Like I've had this conversation recently with another supervisor um where it's like, if your supervisee brings you something small, like, well, I don't even want to use the word small, but like, you know, I think I'm just trying to qualify like a card or something like does everything have to be a conversation?
00:48:56
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:48:57
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Right. And somebody might say, well, yeah, like that's our clinical responsibility, like, you know, power dynamics. And absolutely. Right. um But there's always this line between like what is making sure that this person doesn't feel obligated because you're in a position of power versus they just wanted to say thank you in a specific way.
00:49:21
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Period. Right? Like, I think about those kinds of things.
Cultural Nuances in Therapy
00:49:26
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I supervise a lot. um And I do a lot of consulting. So I'm speaking from that role. Yeah.
00:49:32
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:49:33
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah.
00:49:34
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Well, so what is exactly, and our ethical boards will be different, but what is the the the line, the monetary value of a gift that we can't accept?
00:49:46
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Because it hasn't happened, like I haven't come across it. Right? If ah a client shows up with a chocolate croissant for me, I'm going say thank you so much.
00:49:59
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Girl, you have saved my life. I love a chocolate croissant. Please do not feel obligated to do this every time.
00:50:09
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And I might say, can I offer you some, can I reimburse you for the chocolate croissant? And they're going to say, no, I wanted to gift that for you. Okay, no problem.
00:50:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Just please do not feel obligated to do this every time. Right? like i Like, this hasn't come up that much for me. The occasional and chocolate croissant, right, or latte from a client.
00:50:32
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I mean, i don't I don't even, if I say it happens once a month, i'm it's an extreme exaggeration. You know what I'm saying?
00:50:39
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Well, yeah, but this is why I wanted to talk about this, right? Because even culturally, this conversation would be so different somewhere else, right?
00:50:42
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:48
Blanca Torres, LMFT
no
00:50:48
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
like that Like the westernization therapy like therapy says something particular about gift giving.
00:51:01
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I'm not saying, and I just chose this because I know that this one is a contentious one, right?
00:51:07
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:51:09
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, i i question I question myself even when, I'm not like this is how, by the way, if y'all are like, what is Dr. Diane getting? That's not what I'm saying. It's more like I have a lot of conversations with myself interrogating why something wouldn't feel okay if it happened and what that's actually about.
00:51:28
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:51:31
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Sure.
00:51:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And so I think, I guess what I'm saying in response to the even the question that I put out there for both of us to wrestle with about authenticity and responsibility is like, for me, it's really interrogating like, why like where is this coming from?
00:51:48
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Why like why am I actually thinking about this and in what way, right? Like, is this coming from a place of oppressive systems or if this is this coming from a place of like making sure that the client is
00:52:02
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
not feeling like they have to, yeah you know, and whatever the hell that means. Cause I think I use like, i always use Trinidadian people as an example. Like they're like very likely to just bring you something.
00:52:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like if you were like the local, you know, healer or clinician, like you, somebody would show up at your office with like extra fruit from the tree. Right.
00:52:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, and there's ah and there's nothing for it.
00:52:26
Blanca Torres, LMFT
They would.
00:52:28
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Nobody's asking any extra questions. Nobody thinks anybody wants something extra from you. Right. And so that's why I'm like, I don't have a pretty answer to this.
00:52:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
You know, I didn't have anything, but just wrestling out loud with this question.
00:52:39
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah.
00:52:45
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, I really don't have one either. And I guess.
00:52:51
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yeah, I don't I don't have one. and I guess it maybe would depend on the get. But again, like what's the line? Twenty five dollars and up. OK, I feel like, yeah, clients spending over twenty five dollars. So what if they spend twenty three dollars? That's OK.
00:53:08
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah, but that's what I'm saying, right?
00:53:08
Blanca Torres, LMFT
What's the difference between twenty three and twenty six? Right. If you know.
00:53:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying, right?
00:53:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
but don't know.
00:53:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Is that, like, it's worth interrogating this. Like, really interrogating this. And I just picked gifts because I know it's one that people, you know, struggle
Embracing Authenticity in Therapy
00:53:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So I think long story short, we're just saying interrogate, interrogate, interrogate, interrogate.
00:53:32
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Right. um And that like there are certain responsibilities that we have that are more extreme than this example that I mentioned already um if you are practicing as a licensed person and that's a system that you sign up into, period, unfortunately, right?
00:53:55
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
if the protections that existed, quote, I'm putting protection in air quotes, right? Like actually helped preserve and support life, that would be amazing, right? um But that's a whole nother conversation.
00:54:10
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I'm wondering sort of in sort of closing this conversation out. um When you think about, especially new clinicians, right?
00:54:24
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um who are trying to figure out or and it may not even be new right there may be people who are in certain settings and they they feel like the setting itself constricts who they're allowed to be in the room but it may not actually need to um like what would you say to these folks
00:54:44
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I think I would want to know
00:54:49
Blanca Torres, LMFT
who are you trying to protect by not bringing yourself into the room?
00:54:59
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Like who is it for? if you're if you're If you want to answer, let's your client says some shit, That a co-worker says to them. And you're holding back saying, bitch, what?
00:55:15
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Why are you holding that part back? Who are you holding that part back for?
00:55:22
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I think that's what I would want to know. I don't think, again, I don't have a pretty answer for it. I have my, I can answer your question with a question, which is just such a fucking therapist thing to do. Which is just like, oh really get so sick of myself sometimes.
00:55:38
Blanca Torres, LMFT
But yeah, I would want to know that. Like if i if I have a supervisee in front of me that's like I want to react like this but I don't. I want to know what is stopping her or them. What is the thing that is popping up and telling you don't react that way and who does it service?
00:55:59
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Because the answer is probably not going to be you or the client. It's going to be wyt exclusion
00:56:07
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Okay, what if I, I want to leave it at that, but what if I challenge that a little bit, right?
00:56:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Go for it.
00:56:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So like, what if that's true? And it's also you?
00:56:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Then that's okay. Then I think that's okay. I think
00:56:27
Blanca Torres, LMFT
then you're not being authentic. If you're pushing yourself to react in a way that is not nor and it's not true to who you are, then it's not authentic. And then that and don't do it.
00:56:38
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Well, yes, and going to say yes, and right. i can fully understand, especially folks who may be in settings where.
00:56:50
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
They're worried. About external retaliation.
00:56:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah Because, listen, I've lived a life where I got pushed out of a a job for being my authentic self.
00:57:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And that's why I started my practice. um And I understand why sometimes people want to make decisions to keep themselves safe. And it also and so when Blanca is saying like, you're not being your authentic self, it's not being it's not like a shaming statement.
00:57:19
Blanca Torres, LMFT
no
00:57:21
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
It's just a truism, right? Like, and then what? Right. And then what? what What do we do with that information? Right. But yeah, I think, I don't know. I think answering a question with a question.
00:57:35
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So if it's not for the purpose of deflection and it's for critical thinking, think it's perfectly okay. We don't have to be sick of you, Blanca.
00:57:43
Blanca Torres, LMFT
No, because i I mean, I just there's just no good way. but I can't give one answer to that because you're exactly what you're saying. Because if you're trying to keep yourself safe, then.
00:57:55
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Or or you genuinely don't want to engage that way as a therapist. That's the part of it, too, I think that is important to mention is you get to be the kind of therapist you want to be.
00:58:06
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yes.
00:58:06
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Like if you want to wear pencil skirt and heels and a blazer and and be perfectly makeuped and quaffed and all. oh Fuck yeah, I'm supportive of that. Like do do you.
00:58:21
Blanca Torres, LMFT
If you want to show up like me in jeans and tennis shoes and shirt and a cardigan, like cursing, do that. Like be the therapist you want to be.
00:58:33
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um And so that's why I think I'm having a hard time giving a pretty answer to that question because I want to know the question behind the question.
00:58:42
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
yeah i think Yeah, I think that's reasonable.
00:58:42
Blanca Torres, LMFT
I want to know. Yeah.
00:58:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
and And think it's easy for us to say... Because we both started our own practices so we could be our most authentic selves, right?
00:58:54
Blanca Torres, LMFT
that's it
00:58:56
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Like, that's... Like, we can't leave that out of this conversation either.
Episode Reflection and Closing
00:59:02
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And am I still my authentic self in my contracted position that I do? Yes, I am.
00:59:08
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I am, right? And do folks have something to say about it? Absolutely, right?
00:59:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Right.
00:59:14
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
But I'm like, I don't really care. so
00:59:19
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I've already lived the consequences of that.
00:59:22
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
I've already lived the consequences of that. So I just want to make sure to say that like we are also like stating this from a place of privilege as well. And it doesn't make your question to the question any less important as people are thinking about this.
00:59:35
Blanca Torres, LMFT
No, that is definitely a true, and again, another truism that has to be considered here is I work for myself. And even the agency I work at so that I can take a lot of the mainstream insurance companies,
00:59:53
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um they they're they're structured like all of us have our own private practice. So even that i have the freedom. And so... Yeah, for what it's worth, a lot of this conversation does come from the perspective of because Ksera I have been able to manage our clients and our personas as we see fit and change that as that has needed to change for our individual paths.
01:00:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
And that is important and that's relevant.
01:00:21
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Absolutely. Well, we're going to leave our conversation. We had a bit of a longer conversation today. So thanks for sticking with us.
01:00:29
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Mm hmm.
01:00:31
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And we are going to take a moment. ah You get the benefit of pausing while i go through this, Blanca. of just being called to our bodies.
01:00:42
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So whatever you're feeling right now, maybe you're tense, maybe you're inspired, grieving, invigorated, it is all okay. Just let it be.
01:00:54
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
You don't need to fix anything. Just pause. And now bring your focus to one small point inside of you, your heartbeat. You don't have to feel it right away.
01:01:07
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Just notice somewhere deep inside your heart is still beating, steady, quiet, working for you. If you feel any restlessness or tension, you can let it be, or if you want, you can just breathe.
01:01:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Let your heartbeat become your anchor, a quiet rhythm beneath the noise. You are safe to pause. You're allowed to feel what you feel. And underneath it all, your heart keeps going strong and steady.
01:01:34
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Stay with that rhythm for just a moment longer. And when you're ready, gently come back to us for our moment of joy and thriving this week.
01:01:48
Blanca Torres, LMFT
My moment of joy and thriving this week is that this is my first week working entirely from home. So i for those of you keeping up, I did end up closing my office and I'm entirely from home now.
01:02:03
Blanca Torres, LMFT
um And that's very exciting. So i'm looking forward to seeing what the week, what the future really brings and, um, Figuring out a life and a schedule that works for me. So that's my moment of joy and thriving.
01:02:17
Blanca Torres, LMFT
What about you, Ksera
01:02:18
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yes. and You know, hold on before I answer, you know, I've been looking forward to this because I'm like, you over here with your spreadsheets track.
01:02:25
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And I'm just like, girl, just make the decision. You already know. and So I'm very excited for you.
01:02:32
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Thank you.
01:02:34
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
What is mine? Um, That's a good question. I am supposed to be going to a conference next week.
01:02:45
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
don't know I'm excited about the place necessarily because it's Utah. um But I am excited for the conference and it's one I've been wanting to go to for a long time for the Therapeutic Assessment Institute.
01:02:58
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
um So I'll have a couple of days for travel for that. And so I've just been getting ready for that and I'm really excited about it. yeah. That is my, it's it's it's it's in the future, but I'm looking forward to it.
01:03:12
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So that's my moment of joy in driving.
01:03:13
Blanca Torres, LMFT
That's awesome. Where is this again?
01:03:16
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Salt Lake City.
01:03:18
Blanca Torres, LMFT
oh Oh, yay.
01:03:20
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. Sorry. I had said, I was like Utah. Cause I was like, don't know.
01:03:26
Blanca Torres, LMFT
No, bleep it or get rid of it altogether. Yeah.
01:03:29
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
No, no, no. It's fine. It's fine. I just meant that like, you know, and don't know how I feel about the place, especially like at this time, but like I will be around folks that I really enjoy hearing, you know, their presentations.
01:03:43
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
And it's going to be one of the first conferences I've gone to recently where I'm not presenting, which is also really exciting.
01:03:48
Blanca Torres, LMFT
Yay.
01:03:49
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
So I can just be a person at a conference.
01:03:51
Blanca Torres, LMFT
ya Yay.
01:03:54
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Yeah. Yeah. So that is my moment of joy and thriving. Well, we did it, Blacka.
01:04:01
Blanca Torres, LMFT
did it. One more episode in the books.
01:04:04
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
ah Yes. Well, we are looking forward to you joining us for our next episode.
01:04:11
Ksera Dyette, Psy.D. (she/her)
Until then, take care