Transcript
Speaker: I'm Chris Ferenthal, director of Madison Ballet Special Projects, and this is At the Bar, your behind-the-scenes look at the ideas, stories, and creative processes shaping Madison Ballet's work.
Speaker: Each episode brings our community a little closer to the dancers, choreographers, and collaborators who are making ballet in Madison right now. Whether you're a seasoned ballet domain, current or former dancer, or simply curious about how dance gets made, we warmly invite you into the room where it happens.
Speaker: Welcome back to At The Bar with Madison Ballet Special Projects. I'm Chris Ferenthal, Director of Special Projects, and I have the great good fortune to be joined today by Jean Malik, the Artistic and Executive Director of Madison Ballet, my colleague, albeit the colleague who who signs the checks, or at least be directs the board to sign the checks, you know, however that works.
Speaker: Oh, it's me. But I'm excited to talk about the upcoming show, Choreographer, which will be at My Arts here in Madison, April 3rd through 5th.
Speaker: And a little more broadly about your journey into ballet and your vision for the company and what goes into kind of putting together both a show and a season. So first of all, thank you so much for joining the podcast. i really appreciate it Thank you for having me. I appreciate being here and I appreciate the work that you do for Madison Ballet, including this.
Speaker: Thank you, of course. I arrived here just a few months before you did, so I've been privileged to have a front row seat at the continued ascent of Madison Ballet under your leadership.
Speaker: But I wanted to go back to your beginnings in ballet and ask you a little bit about what was your training like in ballet, and were there any other arts or even dance disciplines or sports that competed for your attention, and how much time did you just spend in the studio?
Speaker: Hmm. Very complicated story. My ballet trainee was Russian Vaganova training. I started very early. i was inspired by dance by Michael Jackson, of course. I just thought he was the greatest mover, entertainer, performer that I had ever seen in my life. And my ultimate goal was to possibly be in one of his videos one day.
Speaker: And I didn't even think that was a job. I just wanted to do it. But that was the extent of what I had thought a dance career could be. But I just enjoyed ballet so much because of the discipline that it required, the focus that it required, the dedication that it required. And it was a complete contrast to the life that I was growing up in.
Speaker: in Ohio. When I first went into a ballet studio, it was very quiet. The class started, only the teacher talked and the piano played. So I thought it was fascinating, especially being one of seven kids in a very noisy household.
Speaker: And so I started really young and continued training and training. And in elementary school, my Aunt Gloria, Glo-Glo as I called her,
Speaker: She was always very encouraging of any of my kind of whims of wanting to partake in things. So the next thing that was like fascinating to me was figure skating.
Speaker: And so myself and a young woman named Brittany, I can't remember her last name, but I know her first name was Brittany. We decided to get together very young age. And be Paris partners and train to become junior Olympians and eventually Olympians.
Speaker: That lasted for a very brief time because as my aunt found out very quickly, it is very expensive to be at figure skating. You have to pay for the coach, you have to pay for the ring, you have to pay for the skates, you pay for everything. And it is very expensive.
Speaker: And so all of my focus went right back to ballet. Still never thinking of it as a career, just doing it because I absolutely loved it. it was a great escapism from the world, from my life, my upbringing.
Speaker: And they offered a scholarship. I had a full scholarship for the entire time that I was there because I was one of only... I think we had another guy eventually, but I was the only guy for the longest time.
Speaker: And so they definitely weren't turning away any guys. So full ride, which I was extremely grateful for. After that, I would say where I really got my training was at the Joffrey Ballet School in New York.
Speaker: with an amazing teacher named David Howard, along with Trinette Singleton, John Magnus, Ellie Lazar, Eleanor Antoineau. These were principals of American Ballet Theater and the Joffrey Ballet of 80s.
Speaker: Trinef Singleton was one of the first dancers to ever appear on the cover of Time magazine because of a ballet that was created on her. These were my teachers, and these were the people who really set the standards, set the foundation for myself to really become a great dancer.
Speaker: And so I really give all the credits to the original Joffrey Ballet School as my trainee. And that trainee slightly changed from Vaganova to Shikheti. So like I got a different kind of style, but it was just very minimal changes. But there's a difference.
Speaker: So do you still ah follow figure skating every four years when it comes up in the Olympics? You know, I was obsessed with Michelle Kwan, as most of us were. There was another one, Sasha Cohen.
Speaker: Those are my two, Sasha Cohen and Michelle Kwan. I love Sasha Cohen because of her extreme flexibility, her almost ballerina-like body. And then I love Michelle Kwan because of the emotion, the pure joy and love that she has of that sport, just emulated and and exposed from her pores and from her being. So those two skaters, I watch...
Speaker: constantly, all the time. And so kind of when they retired, I retired from watching figure skating. I recently just watched this year some of it, some of the figure skating, but I'm really not into it the way I used to be makes perfect sense that you know figure skating and ballet are both those sort of overlap of athletic and artistic you know endeavors.
Speaker: For me, it's similar in so many ways. And for me as a choreographer, what I love is the physical, emotional quality of dance. How extreme can a body be pushed while exemplifying all the emotions of the human experience? feel figure skating and ballet do that, hands down.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, let's talk about your origin story as a choreographer. Is that an impulse you've always had since you were dancing or did it emerge later in your training as something that you realize you're good at or can do?
Speaker: So when I saw a production of Cleveland Ballet's Nutcracker, i was about 12. There was a young man on stage named Ramon Thielen. He was from Brazil. And he looks just like, I'll show you a picture the next time we're together.
Speaker: But when I show people his picture, they think we're brothers or we're related in some way, shape or form. We look exactly the same. Same skin tone, eventually the same height, same body shape, everything. And so seeing him on stage walk out there as a Nutcracker prince,
Speaker: lit up my world. i was like, oh never thinking that this could be a profession because sadly I rarely saw black people or people of color on stage in classical ballet.
Speaker: And so when he walked on stage as the Nutcracker Prince, like I said, my whole world just kind of exploded. And I said, wow, okay, so this can be a profession. So I continued on my studies and they got even more intense. I think I was going to ballet maybe like two to three times a week. And then once I saw that, I was every day. I was Monday through Saturday with at least two to three classes a day.
Speaker: That lasted for a year. And then when I was 13, I had the great privilege of seeing the Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater perform. And they did an amazing ballet called Urban Folk Dance by a choreographer named Ulysses Stubb.
Speaker: And I was sitting on the edge of my seat in absolute tears, And I turned to my aunt and I said, I don't know what that was, but whoever created that, that's what I want to do.
Speaker: So beyond being a dancer, I really wanted to create what I saw on stage, and that was to be a choreographer. And so, you know, this was the age of non-social media. You had to go to the public library, get videos and recordings and ask for newspaper clippings and things, you know, that you wanted to research. So researched Ulysses, and I found out that he was a Black man from South Carolina. He danced with the Merce Cunningham Company. He also danced with out the Alvin A.L.A. American Dance Theater, and he was a choreographer.
Speaker: And so I said, Whatever he did, I'll follow. So I said, he became ah a dancer in a company, I'll become a dancer in a company. That way I can become a choreographer like he did. and so that's kind of like how the path of choreography came about in this full fruition. Like I loved being a performer and that that grew on me. But my first passion really was to be a choreographer. I loved the idea of taking music and taking a room of of stillness and turning it into something.
Speaker: It was a challenge for me to see how far can you push a body? How far can you connect the physical with the emotional? How close can you convey what the brilliant composers had already completed?
Speaker: so all of that stuff to me just became fascinating and almost more glorious than myself stepping out on stage. Like I said, i love I love performance. I eventually got there.
Speaker: So, you know, it was a marriage of the two, but I definitely followed in the path of Ulysses to become a choreographer. That's really fascinating that you were so intentional. Yeah. Researching and finding the path forward. Oh, yeah.
Speaker: I had to because there was not a lot of public facing examples. You know, i think the beautiful thing now we have social media and or Internet and all those things that you could just Google and find so many examples and of people everywhere in the world that you can look up to. But at that time, you know, our outlet for even seeing in ballet was PBS, Great Performances, Dance in America, those programs. They heavily showcased Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater doing Revelations, which was amazing. But, you know, at I was like, I'm into ballet. I want to see what this thing does.
Speaker: And the first ballet I ever saw, like true ballet I ever saw, was Giselle with Baryshnikov and Natalia Markova. And I absolutely loved it. I love the fairy tale. I love the storytelling. i love the costumes.
Speaker: I just love everything about it. But because I didn't see anyone on stage that even came close to resembling me, never thought about it as a career. even think about it as a career, that didn't come until Dance Magazine put on the cover Mel Tomlinson, who was a principal dancer with Dance Theater of Parliament. He was a guest principal artist with the New York City Ballet.
Speaker: And that was the first really like super star to me, black male dancer who crossed the genres and things like that. And so I collected every dance magazine that would even mention him.
Speaker: And i found out that he danced there and he danced in New York City Ballet and Dance Theater of Harlem. But he also danced at a place called North Carolina Dance Theater. And so that's kind of how I got started in my career as a dancer, because I said, OK, I have the path of Ulysses Dove. I know what I'm doing to get to that.
Speaker: Now I have a path forward to get to a professional career as a ballet dancer. So I followed Mel. Mel guested with North Carolina Dance Theater. I said, I'll go dance with North Carolina Dance Theater. And lucky enough, in my research, I found out that I loved everything that they produced. They did classical ballet.
Speaker: They did contemporary ballet. They did new works. They did old works. It was a mix of everything that I was kind of interested in learning. But that's how I ended up in that kind of path of profession. Your programs here at the ballet seem to reflect that, that broad love of classical, contemporary, modern you know influences as well.
Speaker: Other than Ulysses Dove, are there particular choreographers that you feel have helped you find your voice and movement vocabulary or that have influenced you? Absolutely. I mean, Balanchine is one of the greatest choreographers ever.
Speaker: I studied everything about Balanchine, I mean, because that was easily accessible. You could go to the public library and you could get all of his Dance in America videos, Jules, Four Temperaments, Bugaku, Apollo. There's a whole library of things that you can get on Balanchine. He was there as my influencer as far as understanding and learning what the choreography was.
Speaker: Now, the difference was Ulysses had a way for me, maybe because he was a Black man and me being a Black man, there was more relatability, but he was able to take all of that aesthetic of technique that Balanchine did, but he was somehow able to really tap into an emotional quality that also drew me Whereas Balanchine, I love the aesthetic of it, the look of it, the lines of it, the shapes of it, the formations of it. But with Ulysses, it was the combination of both of those things.
Speaker: So those two were definitely two of my biggest influences. And then, of course, as I grew and I learned more, it was definitely William Forsythe. And I had the privilege of dancing a few of his ballets and working with him a few times. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then it was also just as my career progressed, I joined a company called Ballet X where we only did new works. We only worked with choreographers created on us.
Speaker: So the amount of choreographers I got to work with was astounding. And I learned from each one of them, even at North Carolina Dance Theater, the few times that we did have people come and create works such as Alonzo King and Dwight Rodin and Mark Godden, there were so many choreographers in there as well that really influenced me in a way. And then my biggest task, once I got to a certain point, this was around 2005, was when I really hunkered down and started focusing on choreography.
Speaker: Most of my work looked like Ulysses Duff. I mean, just verbatim. you know And that tends to happen with most creatives. Your work tends to look like who you're most influenced by.
Speaker: But I was smart and I said to myself, okay, I look at this and I see 80% Ulysses Dove. There's about 10% of John Malik in there. I need to extract that 10% and build on that. So that's what I slowly did until I started of to see my influences from Balanchine, Forsyth, and Ulysses Dove among others disappear and I started to see myself.
Speaker: And so what I got from Ulysses, what I got from Forsyth, what I got from Balanchine, the techniques of things. As I said, Balanchine is a master at formation. Like, it's wonderful to sit in the balcony or upper level and watch the formation, especially when he does a full company work.
Speaker: The formations are just mind-blowing that he could just move bodies around and interweave them the way he did. And then you look at Ulysses and the attack and the energy and the directiveness of his movement.
Speaker: It's just astonishing. And then with Bill, it was just a complete, utter transference of a mind that is completely open to the impossible to make it possible.
Speaker: And so that's what he kind of influenced in me. Risk taking, being avant-garde, being out there, taking chances, trying things that you would never even, you know, really want to try.
Speaker: But why not try it? See if it works. See if it doesn't work, you know. So those three like really set the path and that kind of helped guide me to find my own voice eventually as a choreographer.
Speaker: I think that's really good advice for any creative to recognize because we do all have to go through that kind of journeyman apprentice type journey through your influences and then you find what is you in that and then try to amplify it or explore it. Yeah.
Speaker: I think if you talk to any great artist, period, they'll all say that. But the great, great ones will tell you. I mean, I listen to interviews with Schiavinsky and he talks about stealing. I steal from this. I steal from that. I steal from that.
Speaker: Then I take it away. And then there I am, you know. And I think any great artist does that. You're only as good as your influences, but then you have to let those influences go and start to find your own voice.
Speaker: And a lot of people don't do that. And I see that in a lot of people's choreographies specifically when I'm looking as a director for new work. That's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for are your influences gone away? Where's your voice? Who are you?
Speaker: What do you have to say? Well, let's talk about how you came to Madison Ballet. What was your journey here? And when you took the job, what was your vision for the company? And now that you've been on the job for a little while, has that vision changed or is it the same?
Speaker: It's so great that you're asking me this because we just had a whole conversation about that this weekend. So I came to Madison Ballet because I had a pickup company in New York called Ballet Boy Productions, where it was an all-male company of dancers.
Speaker: The whole premise of Ballet Boy Productions was to mentor, educate, and give opportunities for young Black men and men of color who were interested in pursuing careers in contemporary and classical ballet.
Speaker: On the performance aspect side, I wanted create opportunities for them to learn works, learn new works, get to perform. So one of the dancers that I worked with was guesting here and there with Madison Ballet.
Speaker: And he gave me a call one day and said, hey, this company in Madison is looking for an artistic director. And I think you would be great for it. And I thought, oh, yeah, why not? Maybe.
Speaker: Never really thinking. Again, you know, not seeing too many people that look like me as artistic directors of ballet companies. So that wasn't even on my radar. So he said, I think it would be great for you because you have all the skills and you can do it.
Speaker: And so I said, OK. So I sent in my stuff. And then unfortunately, the pandemic happened and we went into a lockdown for a year and a half, almost two years. And the conversation stalled. So when they finally reached back out, once we started opening the world back up, I had actually forgot about it because I was trying to pick up the pieces of my life that was falling apart because I had so many commissions from companies at that time that just kept getting eliminated one by one.
Speaker: So by the time they called, i was I was at my limit. And I was like, well, what am I going to do with the rest of my life? My whole career is falling apart now. No outlet, no future prospect. And then they called and said, hey, do you remember us? And I was like, ah not really, but let's keep talking, sure.
Speaker: And so I went through the interview process and met with the board and explained exactly who I was and what I was interested in. And the rest is history. I guess they liked it. They brought me in.
Speaker: It's so funny you mentioned vision because the vision of of Madison Ballet is the vision of the board. primarily. They're the owners, in a way, of the organization.
Speaker: What I call myself is I'm the parent. I'm the parent who is the adopted parent almost for the company right now. I'm the parent. So I'm the one who takes that vision and brings to it all of the things that I can. so When talking to the board, the things that they wanted is they wanted to progress the company into a professional dance company that had more performances than just the Nutcracker. it had ah a multitude of performances throughout a year.
Speaker: So a season full of performances. A company of dancers that were unified into a true company, a school that would eventually build out and help fulfill the company's needs and things like that. And and these were all things I thought, you know, I have something to say about this.
Speaker: I'm interested in preserving Costco Ballet, but moving the art form forward to make it accessible and relatable to where we are today in 2026. Being a Black person, i definitely want to make sure that the equity part is there and the accessibility part to make sure that the community that we serve are seen and represented on stage. So I said, I have those ideas.
Speaker: I have ideas of presenting contemporary works. I have ideas about presenting choreographers with diverse voices who don't get opportunities. And then on the flip side of that, I said, I already choreographed. So i you know, would love to have the opportunity to have a body of people ready and willing to embark on my choreography.
Speaker: And then the last thing was really the care and nurture and love I have for the art form itself, which is passed on through the dancers that I have. And so it was really them. it was them. i wanted to create a world or an environment and a place for them that they could be proud of, that they would feel overjoyed to come in Monday through Friday for eight hours a day, left sweat and tears and get to a performance level and feel such pride in all of that. so I wanted to create that for Madison. And when I came here to teach company class to meet the dancers and talk with them, I saw a group of artists that were hungry for someone to help guide them.
Speaker: And I said, you know, I've been doing this professionally as a dancer for 25 plus years. I have the knowledge. I need to share it with other people. And so that's really what, if you want to say my vision was, was just to enhance the seed that was here and grow it into a bountiful tree.
Speaker: That's how I can best express it Oh, that's really beautiful. I like that even as you're a steward of, you know, the board's company, you do supply not just the energy, but the goal that everyone's working toward.
Speaker: And it does seem like the position that you have, which is probably a little more executive director than you'd like right now. You're wearing a lot of hats, but it seems like the autonomy of kind of being able to program a season, have dancers stage your works, seems like one of the real perks of the job.
Speaker: So I'm curious, how do you go about programming a season? What goes into deciding what gets put on stage when? Every year is different, of course. Don't do the same thing every year.
Speaker: It's the whole process. It starts with first thinking about what the season is, number-wise. The next one is our 26-27 season. And so what I do is I think about that.
Speaker: And then i look at the calendar and I say, between September and May, what would excite the community? Then I kind of look at...
Speaker: And look the world. And look my notebooks. And I look at my journal. And I look at things. And I try to find something that sums up the entire season.
Speaker: And that kind of helps me formulate and have an idea of where to go from there. And so last season was interesting in that I choreographed lot of ballets. I choreographed seven ballets, including a whole late midsummer night drink.
Speaker: That season was all about momentum. The momentum that we were building in Madison, that we were building with the school, that we were building with the company, that we were building with the community, that we we were building with our partnerships.
Speaker: So everything from that word that I came up with, momentum, kind of helped fixate on how each program would progress. How would it pan out over the season?
Speaker: And so that's kind of like how I look at it. And then once i go from there, then I look at what dates we have available, what theaters we have available. And then I go through my Rolodex. I have a whole book of choreographers that I'm fascinated by, interested, and intrigued in.
Speaker: And I start reaching out to them to see who's available. When are you available? What are you interested in doing Are you interested in working with us? So it's a whole process of of conversations and sometimes some the choreographers are available.
Speaker: Sometimes if they aren't. Sometimes times it's not right for this season, but it'll be right for a future season. But it's a lot that goes into it. But sticking to to a couple of things, I wanted to make sure that within the powers that I have, I'm able to present choreographers that I know need opportunity to present works as a choreographer. and deserve an opportunity to present works as choreographers.
Speaker: So i really leaned on women. i think 90% of the commissions that I've done so far have been female identifying choreographers because I feel like there's still a lack of female...
Speaker: voices in the ballet idiom. And then from there, i kind of figure out which seasons I'm going to choreograph and which seasons Richard is going to choreograph, who's our rehearsal director and our school principal, Richard Walters.
Speaker: And then I just base everything around there. But the first priority is always the guest choreographers, because for one, i want the Madison audience to experience these artists from all over the world, all over America, that have very distinct different backgrounds,
Speaker: But they also come from different trainees. They come from different companies. They come from different schooling. But they all have something different to say. And I want to share those experiences and those points of views with the Madison audience.
Speaker: And then secondly is to give the dancers work and choreographers that will challenge them, keep them intrigued and alive and investigated and invested in the work that we're doing in Madison Ballet.
Speaker: So it's a very delicate tightrope that we walk in selecting choreographers because some, you know, you see the work and it's amazing and beautiful. And you just hope that when they get here that they have that same kind of passion when they start creating. And so far we have, we haven't had any blunders. I could say that they've all been pretty successful works. I'm proud of that.
Speaker: But yeah, I think the two main things is to make sure that we're giving opportunities to those that need it. Three things are, that's the first one. The second one is giving the dancer things that they can latch onto and work on and feel accomplished and feel challenged.
Speaker: And then the third thing is to create works and bring in works that really invigorate and inspire and excite the audiences here, the community that we're serving. Hi, Madison. Caitlin Sloan, strategic advisor for Madison Ballet Special Projects, popping in to share a magical opportunity for the whole family this spring.
Speaker: Our popular ballet story time is back and coming to a library near you with an interactive experience that brings the beloved book Giraffes Can't Dance to life. Throughout March and April, we'll be heading to eight local libraries in the Madison area to share our love for ballet.
Speaker: We'll be presenting a narrated story time featuring felt characters followed by a playful, beginner-friendly ballet lesson. Young dancers will explore the art of ballet while discovering how choreographers create dances using space, rhythm, and movement quality.
Speaker: Best of all, they'll learn an important message. There are so many different ways to move and everyone can find a style they love. No dance experience needed, just your imagination.
Speaker: Visit medicinevalletspecialprojects.com for our full schedule of events and we'll see you at the library soon. That's interesting that so many of your commissions have been to female-identifying choreographers because our our next mixed rep has 100% female choreographers. Choreographer as our April mixed rep.
Speaker: And your Rolodex is very deep. It was fun talking with Natalia Arja, who's one of the choreographers on the program. She said that y'all met at CPYB. I was curious, how did you come across the other choreographers on that program? Are they people you've danced with or danced for or So in full disclosure, choreograph her.
Speaker: I first heard it at Boston Ballet. I think they did a program called Choreographer Her several years ago. And I think that's how they pronounce it. They call it choreographer her. I didn't see the program. I just thought it was an interesting word. And I was like, oh, that's kind of fascinating. This is long before I became a director.
Speaker: This is just as a the fan of Boston Ballet. And so I kind of wrote in my book, I said, oh, if I ever get a chance to program something, I'm going to call it that. and do an all-female choreographer program. So I created this year, Choreograph Her.
Speaker: Like you said, went through my Rolodex and started looking up people that I was intrigued by, fascinated by, dying to work with. Natalia, I met at Central Pennsylvania Youth Ballet Summer Program two summers ago. And we didn't even talk about choreography. I don't even know what she was choreographing at that time. I just know she was a principal dancer with Miami City of Ballet.
Speaker: And we exchanged, of course, social media. And then she started posting things. And she posted this amazing piece for four men called Seven Days Walking. And I was like, oh, we have to bring that together.
Speaker: into this company at some point. I didn't know if it was going to be for choreographed her or if it was going to be for a future date. So I reached out to her and started throwing ideas. You know, like I told you earlier, like we have a September, we have a February, we have an April, we have a May. Are you available for any of those? And it just so happened that she was available in April.
Speaker: So then I said, okay, great. I got her this will be an amazing work to present in Madison. We've already had this great relationship with Stephanie Martinez. We brought her in my first year.
Speaker: We've done a work by her every single year that I've been here. But last year, we had a co-commission with the American Repertory Ballet, the time that runs away. And we presented it last year, and it was a great success. So I definitely knew that I wanted to bring that ballet back to have the audiences get a second look at that.
Speaker: So I said, oh, that'll be great to add to this program in April. So it already started to shape up. I have two female identifying choreographers. Then I reached out to a former colleague of mine, Alana Goldman. We danced together at Oakland Ballet for a brief time.
Speaker: And i had spoken to her about a year and a half ago because we were both in a Dwight Roden piece in the company that I wanted to bring back into the repertoire because it hasn't been done in 20 plus years.
Speaker: And so I wanted to bring it back into the repertoire and bring it back to life. And so I reached out to her to see if she had any video of it or any recollection of it. And she did. And so in that conversation, I started to catch up with her and say, hey, what's going on with you, by the way?
Speaker: And she was explaining to me that she, you know, she's a choreographer. And I said, oh, okay What are you doing in April? Because now I'm like, OK, this is going to be an all-female program.
Speaker: She luckily, she teaches at FSU. And she said, I can get the time off to come and choreograph. So bam, she came. Indeline Taylor, I had been talking to about coming to North Carolina School of the Arts to do another work.
Speaker: And so in the process of her offering me an opportunity to choreograph at a school that I love, I wanted to offer her an opportunity to to express and explore her choreography. And I happened to say again, hey, would you happen to be free in April? I got an idea brewing up here. i'm trying to get two more cargapers for April. And she said, oh yeah, that'll be great because that actually works perfectly with the academic year so I can come and create something. So we got her.
Speaker: So then i was just like, OK, back to the Rolodex. We're going to do the Boston Ballet Program. We're going to do Photograph Her. We got really lucky with Stephanie Martinez. And she was like, I just love you so much, John Alique. And I appreciate you always looking out for me and presenting my work and speaking so highly of me and so forth and so on that she she actually gifted us a work that she created on Sacramento Ballet. So that's a new work that we're presenting here that's a Madison premiere as well.
Speaker: And so it all it all shaped up. that I have these five choreographers presenting works. And then I was like, okay, I have a black woman. i have a white woman. I got a Latino.
Speaker: and don't have an Asian. They deserve a voice. And I reached out to a friend of mine who I choreographed on the same program with the American Repertory Ballet, Kylie Kwan, who is a huge choreographer right now. She's really blowing up in the world.
Speaker: And I literally crossed my fingers, Chris, and and called her and said, Kylie, is there any way we can get one in your ballets? And she called me back or she texted me back and she said, i actually, yeah, I have a couple that I think would work really well in your company.
Speaker: She sent me three works and she asked me to choose. And I chose the one that she did for the New York Choreographic Institute, I think a year or two years ago. and I chose it because, but one, I thought it was gorgeous.
Speaker: Two, I love the music of Beethoven that she's using. And then three it was a work that hadn't been performed on stage yet. it had only been done in the studio by the students of School of American Ballet.
Speaker: And I thought it would just be great to have Madison Ballet be the premier company to present this work with costumes and lighting and and all the things that you need to put on a lot of performance.
Speaker: And so there we had our choreographers for choreographers, all women, all different perspectives, completely different backgrounds, but all expressing what they think and feel and believe ballet is in this day and age of 2026 and beyond.
Speaker: That's really wonderful. That kind of mix of both intention and then the organic. I guess it's kind of coming together this way. That's how it's going to go. Yeah. Are there any other choreographers whose work that you would love to bring to Madison when the budget allows it? Oh, yeah. There are so many. I'm still working on bringing in ah Ulysses Dub work here.
Speaker: It is rather expensive, so I'm trying to find the right funders that would be interested and able to help fund that work being presented here in Madison, because I think where we are now as a company, they could brilliantly do it.
Speaker: Would love to bring in a William Forsythe piece. Would love to bring back Balanchine works and as well as Jerome Robbins works. At North Carolina Dance Theater, when I researched Mel Tomlis, and this is going back in our earlier conversation, in discovering North Carolina Dance Theater, I learned everything about the company and how it was created by Sabas Rayao.
Speaker: He was a choreographer, brilliant choreographer, died way too soon, was one of the victims of the AIDS epidemic. When I got to his company, it was now run by Jean-Pierre Bonfou, who was a former New York City Ballet principal and former etoile of the Paris Opera Ballet, along with Patricia McBride, who is an American legend, ballerina.
Speaker: So I was under their artistic directorship, but we still performed works by Salvatore as well as New Works and things like that. But I fell in love with his works. And there was one work that I did not get to do, which was The Ride of Spring, which we actually just acquired the rights to bring into the company, so we're going to present that next year, is' things like that that kind of, you know, spark up about people that I've worked with in the past or that I knew about in the past that I i want to make sure that, especially the ones that are no longer here, like Ulysses and Salvatore, I want to make sure that those voices still live on because they're still relevant today.
Speaker: For me, they did not create works that just died when they died. They created works that I believe should live forever and should be seen by everyone forever and ever and ever. So, of course, those are works that I want to bring in. I spent many, many years at the Joffrey Ballet.
Speaker: Would love to bring in some more Arpino stuff. We did birthday variations a few years ago. But there's so many works that I got to learn by Mr. A that I would love to bring in The list goes on and on and on. There's still a huge amount of female choreographers that I would die to have works by. i love I love the work of Tyler Peck that she's doing right now. Crystal Pied is absolutely one of my favorite choreographers in the entire world. I am just fascinated by her brain in the same way that I was by Bill Forsyth. Jodi Gates is another one. i mean, she is another one that's just like...
Speaker: If you research Jodi Gates, I mean, Joffrey Ballet, Pennsylvania Ballet, this woman was one of the best dancers that ever walked the earth. And now she is becoming one of the most brilliant choreographers that I've ever seen.
Speaker: There's people, there's there's voices out there that I'm still interested in, either from the past, from the present, and also the future. it is I literally have a notebook sitting right here that has at least 20 emerging choreographers that I've met in the past two and half, three years that I'm dying to give opportunity to.
Speaker: Oh, that's amazing. are Are we making news that a Rite of Spring is coming next spring? Yes, the Rite of Spring is coming next year. that's going to be great. I wish I was still able to dance it, but but I'm glad that these dancers get to experience it And I'm also really thrilled that this audience gets to witness this work. Like I said, you know, I always talk about the neck cracker.
Speaker: His neck is one of the best I've ever danced in my life, and I've danced a lot of Nutcrackers. But it was just his ability to turn ballet steps, I'm talking about the technique of ballet, into relatable movement to the non-dancer.
Speaker: just remember my aunts and my uncles and people who came to see that particular Nutcracker was like, That was really good. i understood everything about that. And they had never said that about a neck cracker before. They always thought, himm like oh, it's fine. It's fantasy. it editor that But this one, they were like, I actually see myself on stage there. I remember back in the day when I would go to Christmas parties and holiday parties and have fun like that. So I love his choreography.
Speaker: And I love in the era of YouTube now with all the choreographers that you've named in this episode, folks can go look them up and see some of their work. And that was not always you know the case. So thank you for giving that nice list of stuff for everyone to check out.
Speaker: Yeah, there are some really great ones out there. I mean, David Dawson's another one. He's absolutely fantastic. Helen Pickett. I've known Helen Pickett since I was 15 years old. She's still a part of my life. She's the a mentor. She's a friend.
Speaker: Brilliant choreographer. I mean, just other world. Annabelle Lopez Ochoa, I got to work with her when I was in Ballet X. Would love to bring her work in. It's beautiful. It's amazing. One of my best friends, Jewel D. Lane, I think he's a brilliant choreographer, as well as my best friend Camille Brown, who's a four-time Tony now.
Speaker: I'm not sure we could afford her. Well, you're go to apply for the friend, Diska. Yeah, you know, but would love to bring both works in. There's a lot of talent out there, and especially there's a lot of talent that needs platform and opportunities. And that's exciting for you to be able to have a platform to give that to others. What advice would you have for current dancers who might want to make a choreographic or administrative turn in their career later on? Is there anything that you wish you had known? Or I guess you kind of went on the path from the beginning. What would you tell younger dancers or a younger Jamalit?
Speaker: For choreographers, I would tell them to study the craft, of course. But go back to what I said earlier. Really look at your work truthfully and objectively.
Speaker: And look at your work and see how much of it is you and how much is your influences. And do your best to slowly strip away the influences.
Speaker: Keep the essence, keep the technique, keep the lessons that you learn from them, like I said earlier. But find your voice. Find what you want to say, what you want to present, how you respond to music, how you respond to dancers in front of you.
Speaker: That's the biggest thing for choreographers for me. And I just have something to say. i don't think there's many directors who are interested in hiring choreographers that just create steps. think we're all looking for the voices. We're all looking for, and not necessarily stories. I mean, there's a lot of ballet companies that are looking for narratives. They're looking for those stories, those people who have ideas about story ballets.
Speaker: But we're looking for emotions. We're looking for connections that are able to be digested by our audience. Administratively, i encourage many dancers especially while you're dancing, to start thinking about what do you want to do beyond performing because a very short career and you can't do it forever, unfortunately.
Speaker: i wish. But you can't do it forever. I definitely encourage them to think about what do you want to do beyond your dance career? And if it is an administrative side, explore.
Speaker: Do an internship. Ask questions. Get involved. So you can see what area of the art outside of the stage would you be interested in? Are you interested in the stage crew? I mean, behind the scenes, making everything come to life.
Speaker: Are you interested in lighting? Are you interested in fundraising? Are you interested in marketing? Are you interested in an executive leadership position where you're actually like in charge of making sure the entire organization runs effectively, efficiently, sustainably and pursue that?
Speaker: study it. There's lots of programs now for college or even community college, regular college, advanced college, where you can get degrees in arts management and and learn to craft in that way.
Speaker: But I also think like how I did as a choreographer, I started choreographing while I was in companies. I would just ask a few dancers, hey, do you have a few hours on Friday after rehearsal that you can stay with me in the studio and work on some stuff?
Speaker: Many of them said no. A lot of them said yes. So I worked with whoever I had and I started to slowly build myself up. And then as far like the admin side, what I did is I literally just looked at my life and I said, well...
Speaker: I've had a successful career for 25 years. There's aspects of this that were in there that helped me do that. I had to market myself in order to get a job.
Speaker: When I started my own project-based company, I had to raise money to pay the dancers. I had to learn how to do payroll. I had to learn how to work an Excel spreadsheet and all those things just from the experiences of not just running my career, but also now forming a choreographic and a pickup company career.
Speaker: So I was like, oh, I have all the skills it takes to be an artist's director, even i never thought about becoming an artist's director. When I really sat down, when I was offered the position, I sat down and wrote down everything that I thought I could bring to the table. And I was like, okay, I think I could do this. At first I was like, oh, I can't do this.
Speaker: Yeah. I'm not social. By nature, I'm an introvert. I know a lot of people find that hard to believe, but I am an introvert. I am so comfortable in a corner looking at everyone else, not talking.
Speaker: I am so comfortable at home. I've never heard of this thing called FOMO until I moved here. But I realized from dancing under the tutelage of Arthur Mitchell and Judith Janison,
Speaker: And even seeing Peter Martin's work, I was like, oh, you cannot be an introvert and be an artist director. So I had to learn how to tap into a different side of myself to become an extrovert that was public facing.
Speaker: And by doing that, I did things like I started a podcast. That way I could get comfortable talking to people and not feel like sweat is dripping down my entire body as I'm starting to have a conversation.
Speaker: So I put myself in situations and gave myself tasks to kind of push myself towards as becoming an effective and efficient artistic director. So I say to people, and take all of the tools that you have, enhance them, learn as much as you can, ask questions, investigate, and be open and ready.
Speaker: Yeah. Good advice. I think for anyone doing anything, just kind of do it and then identify what skills you already have and then enhance them. And pick up the other ones and ask around. That Rolodex of choreographers, I have a Rolodex of people that I know who are artistic directors and been successful at it.
Speaker: And I call them and I'm glad that they pick up the phone. so that's to Jodi Gates, such as Ethan Steeple, Susan Joppa, American Ballet Theater. You know, I'm lucky that I've met these people and I can, Brandon Raglin at Dayton Ballet, the good friend Christopher who runs Alabama Ballet. My friend runs Carolina Ballet. These are people that I grew up with, some of them dancing.
Speaker: Adam McKinney, the director of Pittsburgh Ballet Theater. We went to the Ailey School together when we were kids. And now we're both artist directors of ballet companies. So I have learned to reach out to these people and lean on them and allow them to also do the same with me.
Speaker: You know, building that community of people that you can turn to when you need help. That's really beautiful. Yeah. Turning to the choreographer program in April, what can a first time never been to a mixed rep show ballet goer expect from this program? And what do you think, you know, the most seasoned ballet domain will also get from the program?
Speaker: Yeah. You know, it's so hard for me to think about that sometimes because it's been so many years since I was a first-timer. But I think about what excited me the most about Giselle when I saw it the first time. It wasn't just the story and the cost of me.
Speaker: It was the fact that these human beings, yeah human beings were doing these extraordinary things. standing on their toes, turning on their toes, jumping to the heights of the heavens, getting down to the low as the earth can provide.
Speaker: All of this was happening. I was amazed by the athleticism and the emotional connectedness that these human beings could portray on stage. You know, we watched movies and I knew acting and I know actors.
Speaker: But as a person who was very much intrigued by what can you convey, without the voice. That just blew me away. I think it's the same reason I got into figure skating because it was like, you don't talk. You have to convey everything that you're trying to get across through movement.
Speaker: And I remember Miss Seamison, she had an interview with Charlie Rose, many, many, many years ago, probably 93. Look it up on YouTube. It's a great interview. And she said, if you give me opportunity, I can show you things and tell you things about yourself that you've never thought possible just by watching me dance.
Speaker: Wow. And I think that perfectly sums up for me if as a first timer. If you come in and you just take in the pure beauty of these human athletes, these artistic athletes and what they can convey to you on a humanistic level.
Speaker: If you really just sit there and just take that in, you'll be moved. in ways that you never thought imaginable. And then I think for the person who has seen ballet and is familiar with ballet, I think the most fascinating part of this program is again, that these are five the distinct and different female voices.
Speaker: that are all speaking about what is ballet in 2026? What is ballet in the future? How does it relate to a people today? While using this technique, it's been around for hundreds of years. you know We're not reinventing the ballet technique, but we're reinventing the way it's expressed and the way it's exposed to people today so that you, like me, can come to a theater and see someone on stage and see a reflection of yourself and walk away feeling like, I get it.
Speaker: You may not get everything, but you can walk away saying, I get it. Two things I love sports-wise, tennis and gymnastics. Don't know anything about either of them. But I could literally watch, if you gave me a day off, I could sit over here on this couch and watch tennis all day.
Speaker: Men and women. I'm fascinated the way the body moves, the way the agility, the quickness, the strategy. i don't play tennis. I never studied it. But I love watching it It's the same thing for gymnastics. I couldn't tell you a backflip from a half tug from a somersault to a cartwheel.
Speaker: But when I watch Simone Bancroft on that floor, on that beam, in that bar, and those ropes, doing these things that are just unimaginable with the human body, I'm in I'm a fan, you know? And, you know, what I recently started watching also was kind of football.
Speaker: It's fascinating to me. It's almost like choreography. I watched a few games like a few months ago, and then, because I think the Super Bowl happened. Like, I'm familiar with football. I think the Super Bowl happened, I think. There was a Bad Bunny show and some football around it, yeah. Right.
Speaker: So I'm watching this, and I'm like, Like, how are they figuring all this out? So then I looked at Google football. How does it work? And then they showed me, like, the playbook that they use where they put the X's and the O's and strategize. Like, well, if this person goes this way, then you run around that way and kind of cut them off here.
Speaker: I was like, this is choreography. This is literally a choreographer who is making up these plays for these players to pussy. But I've become fascinated with football. Oh, I love it. But you see, again, it's all the things that do not require...
Speaker: a verbal communication. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. It's about wrestling because they they're not on stage saying, hey, move over there. Nobody's saying that even in basketball. They're like giving cues with their bodies, their eyes, their faces to say, hey, I'm going this way. You know, duh, you look where my shoulder's going.
Speaker: So this is all connected to me. So I think sports...
Speaker: It's ballet. It's literally a sport to me that is amplified to the same degree because it's about emotion and it and has to do with artistic qualities. Beautifully put, I think it it encapsulated my experience when I first came to the studio to learn the show my first time and encountered people doing amazing things with the human body.
Speaker: And I didn't understand ballet then, but I was moved by it. So yeah, I think people can come and grow to understand and still be moved by what they see. Yeah, because I think the biggest thing and what I tell people all the time is just don't be afraid.
Speaker: Don't be afraid. Take a chance. Experience something that you've never, like I said, I had no c plan on watching football. I literally flipping the channel and it came on and they said that Blenny will be performing in like 30 minutes or something like that. I don't know who Bad Bunny is, but I heard a lot about him.
Speaker: So I said, oh, I'll watch this and then see what he's doing. But I got really turned on by the football. But if I hadn't taken that chance, I might not ever become a football fan. So I told people, take a chance. And I think people get afraid because they're afraid they're not going to understand it And you don't have to understand it.
Speaker: But take it in. Let it process. If you feel moved, then you've understood it. And most people, I've rarely met somebody who didn't see a dance, even if they don't like dance.
Speaker: I've rarely, rarely met someone who said, i didn't like it I agree. Yeah. You get someone to come to a mixed rep show and i find it hard to believe that they wouldn't want to come to another one.
Speaker: Yeah. That's the beauty of why I love mixed rep, because it's giving you a little bit of everything that we could do. You know, it's not just giving you classical ballet, but it's giving you contemporary ballet, modern ballet.
Speaker: It's really the whole gamut of what we're able to do with our chosen art form and our profession. Well, I'm excited for folks to come see Madison Belly next on stage, April 3rd through 5th at MyArts.
Speaker: And thank you so much, Jamalik, for joining me. This was just a lovely, lovely conversation. Thank you, Chris. I truly enjoy talking to you every time we get a brief moment to sit down and chat. I know. This is the longest we've been able to chat. We're usually, ah you know, at Tech Week or in in the studios. We're passing. Yeah. Well, thank you again and go get some rest and I will see you in the studio tomorrow. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker: Thank you for tuning in to At The Bar with Madison Ballet Special Projects. If you enjoyed this episode, we invite you to experience Madison Ballet in person by joining us at one of our upcoming performances or community events.
Speaker: From accessible, innovative productions to in-depth conversations with artists, our goal is to create welcoming spaces where everyone can experience ballet in a meaningful way.
Speaker: You can find performance dates, event details, and ticket information on our website and social media platforms. Whether it's your first time attending or you're a long-time supporter, we'd love to see you in the audience and share the experience with you live.
Speaker: Thanks again for listening. We hope to see you at the ballet soon.
