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Ultra Andy - Testing Limits | Pain Caves | Loving the Process
246 Plays1 year ago
Joe and Rush listen to Rush's solo-interview with ultra marathon stud, Andy Glaze. Andy runs multiple 100+ mile races every year, and is on an insane streak of 100 mile training weeks. They discuss Andy's mentality for ultra running, testing personal limits, and the pure joy of the journey. As Andy says, "Smile or you're doing it wrong."
Today, Ultra Andy is the most interesting person in the world.
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Transcript
Casual Banter and Interview Dynamics
00:00:00
Speaker
Please. You will love it. You will love it. I've been on like, we're like getting into like the third hour. You know, it's not like, it's not like I just, you know, just sitting around. I'm not just, I'm just not a pretty face rush. You know, I got some skills. I know you're not as I, as I lip balm.
00:00:33
Speaker
I tell you what, Rush, I think you should probably take some more of these interviews by yourself. Now, don't, you know, I missed being there, but I loved listening to you do this interview. So I appreciate you saying that. Just to catch the listener up, if it's not clear from what you just said, there was an opportunity we had to meet with Andy Glaze, an ultra marathon runner who is
00:01:00
Speaker
top of the field in terms of volume. Anyway, uh, but for some reason you couldn't be there. And so I ended up meeting with him by myself and I did not enjoy that, uh, nearly as much as you might think I did. Um, because I just think it's a lot better when we're having a three person conversation, but, uh, but I was really interested to talk to that guy. I followed him for a long time on social media and on a running app and
00:01:28
Speaker
Uh, it was just really cool to hear about his life and his running and all the rest, but I don't like doing the thing. Uh, you know, just by myself like that. So hopefully that doesn't happen again, or maybe sometime you'll be on the receiving end of a one-on-one conversation and that would be cool. I need to do the heavy lifting and you can sit and listen with some popcorn like I did and probably enjoy it just as much.
00:01:57
Speaker
So here's my conversation with ultra Andy glaze, and then we'll talk about it.
Balancing Running and Firefighting
00:02:04
Speaker
So, um, yeah, I, I wanted to ask you first, just sort of, sort of what's going on in your life. I noticed you, you said you have some races this weekend and I'm just curious kind of what your, what your normal schedule is like and what life is like. It looks like you, um, you know, you, you work for a fire department and is that right? And so what's your, what's your life like?
00:02:26
Speaker
Um, this week, uh, so I have a race Friday. So, um, before I do like a big race, I tend to like, we call it tapering and I, um, reduce the amount of miles that I normally run. So like,
00:02:42
Speaker
Yeah. For me, that's like, I'm running like, like about 10 miles a day and just kind of taking it super easy, getting more sleep. You know, I'm running the San Diego 100, which it's a hundred mile race out in the Eastern mountains of San Diego. I have too many questions to ask just about running, but I'm really, you know, in addition to that, just more interested in, in, in just ways that I can get to know you a little bit better. What's important to know about, about Andy.
Career Transition Inspired by Family Legacy
00:03:12
Speaker
From a very young age, so I'm 45, so like 13, 14 is like when my parents got their first computer. And I became like a little sort of computer hacker at a young age and got really into computers.
00:03:28
Speaker
and did a lot of computer work all the way into my late 20s. And I went through divorce. And at the end of the divorce, I kind of decided that like I was done with computers, kind of like one of those like, life changing moments where like, you know, everything's changing. And you're like, well, I'm just gonna like reinvent myself. Yeah. And so I started like,
00:03:54
Speaker
you know, looking for new careers, I started investigating like all different things. And right around that time, my grandfather, who was a pediatrician his whole life, he died. And at his funeral, there was like, like 500 people showed up. And they were all his, you know, people that he helped, like when when they were little kids, and now they're all grown up, and they all came to pay their respect and
00:04:23
Speaker
A lot of them would come up to me and say, Oh, your grandpa did this for me. Oh, your grandpa, you know, helped me. And this is back in the day when, you know, the doctor would actually do a house visit, you know, and like, and, uh, so he had like a really good connection with like this huge group of people. And all these people, he had really like, like helped them and like changed their lives. And, and I, and I, at that moment just was like, this is what I want. Like I, I want to do something in life that.
00:04:52
Speaker
When I die, like I will be able to like, you know, like people will be able to look back and say, Hey, he made a difference. He changed people's lives. Um, and, uh, I had a lot of friends that were firefighters. Uh, and they were like, Hey man, this is like, you know, you can be a paramedic, you can help people, you can save lives, you know, we get to do, and you know, they sold
Family Values and Cultural Exposure
00:05:14
Speaker
me on it. It's been a great career for me because I truly have been able to like help people and.
00:05:19
Speaker
and save lives and all the other stuff that I really wanted to do. What really makes your family happy? If you think about the pursuit of happiness in your family, I mean, you seem like a happy guy to me. So what's the pursuit of happiness like in your family? I mean, my family, they're like doers. So I think what makes them happy is like doing stuff like
00:05:43
Speaker
Like we spend a lot of time at the beach in the water, uh, like surfing and doing stuff like that. They have all their activities. Like we just talked about, they love that. Um, we like to go on like vacations together. And like, like last year we went to Costa Rica. We went and rode ATVs and horses and surfed and did all these, like, they like to do, do stuff. Yeah. So, and seeing, I try to expose my kids to.
Teaching Challenges Through Ultra Running
00:06:10
Speaker
a more global approach to the world and not so, you know, ethnocentric, you know, I mean, yeah, I love America, just like, you know, a good American does. But at the same time, we live in a, you know, a huge world. And there's lots of other things that go on. And, you know, I want my kids to be exposed to like that global and understand like, you know, it's important to see other cultures and how other people live and, you know, right on totally, totally gets out.
00:06:39
Speaker
I try, I try to like, you know, instill that and then like, you know, all my obsession with hard work and my obsession with, uh, doing hard things and all that stuff. Like my kids get those same that I, that I give on social media, like, uh, you know, the importance of failure and like, you know, even, even just today, even just today with Ezra, who's 10, uh, we were talking, he, he sometimes likes to go to the skate park and he's not quite gotten, you know what it means to drop in.
00:07:08
Speaker
He hasn't quite gotten where he can drop in and he's really afraid to do it. And so we had a little conversation today, which actually reminded me of you. And even now as I'm thinking about it, it brings a really important question to mind. So I was just telling him, you know,
00:07:24
Speaker
the things that are most worth doing in life are the things, if you can find them, that you're not sure that you could do it. And I was even thinking the other day, and I'm actually talking to Joe about this, I was asking him if he thinks of certain things in his life or
00:07:44
Speaker
where you feel like, I don't know that I can actually pull this off, but I'm gonna try and I'm willing to fail, or I'm willing to get hurt trying, because it's important to try to do that.
Mental and Physical Challenges of Ultra Marathons
00:07:55
Speaker
Do you still feel that, like this weekend, do you still feel a, I'm not sure I can do it, or you've gotten to a point, where's that line for you now? Do you have one? Yeah, I mean, and anytime, I feel like, ultras are so hard. Yeah.
00:08:15
Speaker
I think sometimes on my videos and whatnot, maybe I don't like do a good job of selling how hard they are because you know, I'm editing stuff together to make a video. But like I get before every hundred mile race and I pretty much only do a hundred mile races at this point. I get, I get super like I've been nervous all week. I've been like, like trying to mentally prepare, trying to get myself ready for this because
00:08:43
Speaker
There's a lot that goes into running miles. I have to manage my nutrition, my hydration, my temperature, my chafing issues. I have to watch the trail and not trip and fall. All these things.
00:09:06
Speaker
And then I have to think about like, what am I going to need to do at the next aid station? You know, drop bags, you know, what I should eat, how many calories I've taken in, like all these things, you know, and I do all this like solo, so I don't have a crew and I don't have pasters to help me.
00:09:22
Speaker
Um, and it's, it's a lot and, um, and I have failed like a lot of times, like I have like D we call it DNF, which is did not finish. I've DNF'd a lot of races. And so I know all the things that can go wrong, not all of them, but a lot of them. And so, you know, before I like drop into that, you know, skate park before I do that, um,
00:09:47
Speaker
you know, I'm thinking about all this stuff and it just makes me so incredibly anxious and nervous. I'm nervous right now thinking about, you know, I've done San Diego twice. The first time I fell and I like, I knocked myself out and, um, whoa. Yeah. I got, I got a really bad concussion. I ended up having to like walk out like eight miles and I was like all totally dazed. And, uh, I had some, like, some, some issues, like, um,
00:10:15
Speaker
you know, from that concussion for like months afterwards, really, really, yeah, it affected me for quite a while. The morning before the race, I will be dry heaving and like, uh, just, just a wreck. I promise you. And you know, I'll pull myself together. And then as soon as I start running, like I'll start talking to somebody and I'm a,
00:10:35
Speaker
I'm a talker. Like if you come up with a race, a lot of people have gotten captured by me and I will literally talk your ear off if you find me at a race. Cause I'm like you, like, you know, in this conversation we're having right now, I will out on the race. I will be like,
00:10:52
Speaker
So where do you live? What do you do? What's your job? You know, like, how many kids do you have? Like, and I will ask all the questions I want to know everything about you. And I will do it while we're running 100 mile race or 200 mile race or whatever. I mean, I get I get really into like, finding out about people and, you know, I don't know if you can see it in my face. I'm genuinely fascinated.
00:11:15
Speaker
to just talking to you. And I have to really because I know that, you know, we can't talk forever have to be selective. And when I ask you, I'm trying to think carefully about about that. I mean, I really I really do appreciate just your, your attitude that you that you share in your social media posts, in particular, you're running the motto, smile, you're doing it wrong, is a striking mix.
00:11:39
Speaker
with the pain of ultra marathon running that I know by observation. So you have a family, kids, wife, job, and major running goals that require extensive time being poured into them. How do you manage that?
00:11:59
Speaker
Well, I mean, two things. One, my wife and I, we split our kids 50, 50. So 50% of the time, it tends to be when I'm at work, we don't have the kids. And then when I'm off work, we have them. It doesn't always line up like that. But that's the gist. I wake up super early and run in the morning. That's like the main thing.
00:12:24
Speaker
My wife will get the kids up, get them ready, and they go to school. And so I have that little buffer in the morning where I can get more miles. And then I tend to run twice a day to get a higher amount of miles. So then I run again in the evening.
00:12:40
Speaker
after they've had dinner and like they're kinda winding down. I don't know like an hour's worth of running or something like that like in the evening. So because it's really fresh on my mind having read this book to the edge and about the bad water and kind of getting my mind around that I wanted to ask you since you ran it. You ran it once?
00:13:00
Speaker
Once. Unsuccessfully. OK, OK,
Lessons from the Badwater Race Attempt
00:13:04
Speaker
OK. OK, this is this is going to be really interesting to me. So you ran it once unsuccessfully. So, you know, like part of the story, it takes you through the whole race that he goes through and all of the pain and struggle. And even down to at one point, I just actually just finished the book today. So it's really fresh in my mind. But at one point he you know, his his crew is back behind him.
00:13:28
Speaker
and he's run ahead of them, and it's the middle of the night, it's two in the morning, and all of a sudden, he comes into a town, and he becomes panicked that they took a wrong turn, and now they've gone the wrong way, and he doesn't know how far back, and he turns around, and he starts with what little bit of life he has left, running back to the van, and they stop and get out and say, what's wrong? And he said, we must have made a wrong turn,
00:13:58
Speaker
And then he turns back around and the town is gone because he has hallucinated this town. And just that whole that's a great picture of just what the whole book kind of tries to paint out. And you've talked about this. You've talked about a pain cave. And I'm just curious, like, what was your experience like?
00:14:23
Speaker
So I mean, Mike, I've crude it twice and then I ran it once. So I, I've, uh, I've done the whole crewing and like, um, done that whole experience, which is, which is a slightly different experience than actually running it. I almost think crewing it's harder.
00:14:40
Speaker
Cause you're like just in that hot ass van, you know, and having to take care of somebody that's falling apart the whole time. And you're falling asleep in the crew, right? Cause you've got to, yeah. And then I also, then I would also pace too. So like, I would run like seven miles and I would get in the van and then somebody else would run seven miles and then I would run seven miles. So, um, but what happened with me, um, it's silly, you know, when I look back on it now, but two things, one, um,
00:15:09
Speaker
You know, I ran that the San Diego and I got a concussion and then literally, uh, like three weeks later I ran bad water. So I was still, I still had that concussion, um, which I think affected me negatively the year I did it. It was 128 degrees, which is one of the hottest years they've ever had. Um, and my whole body like cramped up for two hours. And I'm talking like.
00:15:36
Speaker
I've had kidney stones. I've had, you know, all sorts of horrible things happen to me. This was the most painful thing that I've ever gone through. We're literally my entire body cramp from my neck all the way to my toes. And I, and I couldn't stop it. Like I was just literally like, like completely ramped up and, you know, I'm drinking all this electrolytes and eating mustard. I'm drinking pickle juice. I'm doing everything. And it, and, and it wouldn't stop that mixed with
00:16:06
Speaker
Um, you know, I hadn't peed the entire race and it had been like 12 hours. How far did you get before the shutdown? So this is at like mile 50. I got to the top of the mountain, the first mountain and you're about to drop down in and, uh,
00:16:21
Speaker
Yeah, I just, uh, that was it. Like I, I didn't pee and I, and I cramped and I couldn't, I just was like mentally, I just was that I wasn't going to be able to come back for after two hours of getting my, myself back together. Meanwhile, full sun, 128 degrees, you know, and, uh, you know, you're kind of in the shade of the van, but like, yeah, there was just, by the time I stopped cramping, my body was done, you know, and I, we drove all the way home.
00:16:50
Speaker
which was like, by like five or six hours, didn't pee the whole way still was just drinking and drinking. Really? And I finally got home after 18 hours. And I peed when I got home. And thank God it was pretty clear. But I was, you know, panic that I was going to get rhabdo and all that sort of stuff. So okay, so I'm gonna ask you a question. And I can if Joe was here, he's gonna say, this is an insulting question to ask that whole experience and the
00:17:21
Speaker
failure to finish the race. How did that affect you? That may be like, uh, obviously.
00:17:28
Speaker
Uh, it's a, I have an obvious thought about what that would be like, but how did that affect you? Because that's one of those drop-in to the skateboard Ezra things. Like, I don't know that I can do it. I'm going to really try and all of the variables have to be in place. And, but I'm going to pour my life into it. And then this happens. What was that light personally for you? If I can ask that.
00:17:56
Speaker
I mean, it was hard because I didn't have a whole lot of DNFs before that. Hold on. Okay. Yeah. Are we good? Okay. Sorry, my wife's listening to TikToks next to me over here. Oh, no problem. No problem. So, you know, the San Diego DNF was hard, and then the bad water was hard, and then after that,
00:18:17
Speaker
I ran Angela's crest right after that. And I had like, I made it 85 miles and had super bad chafing issues. Um, and ended up like, I probably could have made it, but like mentally wasn't there. I just couldn't finish the last 15 miles. So I had three bad DNFs in a row. Um, it was hard. I was like, I, I just went through a really low point in my life that year because I had three big DNFs and I had to like.
00:18:46
Speaker
This was sort of like, I was still trying to figure out mentally how to handle, uh, ultras in general, like, you know, this has been a long, long, long time coming of like experimenting and failing. And that was probably the year where. I had the most mental challenges were like, I think, um, like mentally I gave up on some things and like, I could have pushed through, um, it would have required a lot of grit and a lot of, um, pain.
00:19:15
Speaker
But, uh, I just didn't want to. And, um, yeah, so those three in a row and, and again, this, I always kind of tie it back to the concussion because, you know, like, yeah, after several months, like, um,
00:19:32
Speaker
I feel like I got mentally stronger again. And then I did, um, after Angela's crest, I did UTMB, um, and finished that, which was a very, very hard race. Yeah. So, um, and then kind of got my stuff back together after that. But, um, yeah, that, that was low point.
Coping with Race Failures and Resilience
00:19:49
Speaker
I mean, especially bad water because it's so expensive. Yeah.
00:19:54
Speaker
I have all these friends come out and like, you know, help me. Yeah. And that's the way the guy in the book felt. Yeah. Right. And then like to fail after 50 miles when it's like, you know, 50 miles to me is nothing. Yeah. And we've already spent days out there getting ready and buying ice and doing all that. It was, that was, yeah, it was hard. Um, I mean, I still think back, like, you know, I'm probably at some point I'll go back and finish bad water. Okay. It's just, uh,
00:20:22
Speaker
Again, it's so expensive. Like sometimes for me, it's like, there's so many things I'd rather do than go spend $5,000 running through the desert. Like go do a race in Italy or go do a race in like Thailand or something that would be like financially better. Have you done overseas?
00:20:40
Speaker
Yeah, I've done UTMB three times. I don't know where all these places are, so I'm picking up on it. UTMB is in France, and you run through the Alps. You run from France into Italy, into Switzerland, and then back into France. And then I did a race in Japan, I've done a race in China.
00:21:03
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, my goal is to run all over the world in races, but you know, time consuming and then costs. Maybe just a couple more questions and you can like at any moment say, Rush, that's good. I've had enough. Because I seriously could keep asking you questions all day long. So you have these opportunities to run in the Alps.
00:21:29
Speaker
in Death Valley, all these beautiful San Diego, all these beautiful places. And I'm curious, what is there?
00:21:40
Speaker
I assume there is. Is there a kind of spiritual side to your life and your running? Where are you with all of that? How do you take that in?
Nature's Beauty and Spiritual Connection
00:21:49
Speaker
So it's kind of like the, you know, the journey is the reward. Like, you know, to get ready for all these races, I spend an enormous amount of time in the mountains and the hills and the trails and the I'm obsessed with nature and in all of its beauty and like, you know, all of its glory and everything. And, um,
00:22:09
Speaker
you know, going and racing in beautiful areas is just like icing on the cake. You know, it's just like, that's, that's just another great aspect of ultra running and trail running. And I love flowers and I love, you know, when the leaves change colors and, uh, you know, I love it when it snows and I love it when it rains and I love it when it's hot and I love it when it's cold. I mean, I just, I love being outside. I, I used to, I mean, I still do it like once a year, but I used to be a big backpacker and I'd go out and backpack for, you know,
00:22:39
Speaker
a couple of weeks at a time out into the middle of nowhere where there's no cell reception or no anything and just, you know, just take in nature and take in all that, that beauty. And, um, I still do it. I mean, I'm still doing it all the time when I'm out running, you know, um, every day the trails are different every day, you know, different, different flowers blooming or, you know, something went from green to Brown or Brown to green. And, um,
00:23:06
Speaker
you know, maybe you see a coyote or a rattlesnake or, you know, a bear or a mountain lion or whatever. And it's just all just amazing. Yeah. You know, and so
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah, I love, I love it. And I definitely, even in a race, I'm still like totally soaking it all in, you know, these people that tagged me all over the world from, you know, I've had like South Africa to, you know, Seoul, Korea. And like, I love seeing where they're running. I like, look at the trail. I look at the trees, you know, I'm like, you know, look at the lakes or whatever. That's,
00:23:40
Speaker
To me, that's always like super fascinating. I really I like that fascinating. What and I really hope I'm not just asking you like all the standard like.
00:23:51
Speaker
No, no, this has been a very different podcast for sure. Okay. Different, different. You know, a lot of questions are normally like running based and stuff like that. I just like to talk. That's good. I do too. I do too. And this is, this is, this has been more like, uh, intimate about, uh, like who I am, which is, yes, I'm an open book. So I'm not trying to hide anything from anybody. I'm not like, like you, uh,
00:24:20
Speaker
thought in the beginning of the podcast, like I truly do believe that like the person I portray on social media is, is Andy. Like I'm, I don't have to, I'm not, I'm not acting, you know? Yeah. And it was like, yeah, just him who I am. And like, um,
00:24:36
Speaker
Yeah. So, yeah, cool. That's, that's really cool. Yeah. And I'm interested in, you know, we're interested in you as a person. So I appreciate that you, that's
Managing Stress Through Ultras
00:24:46
Speaker
coming through. And, but, um, so, so like you said earlier, you know, most people who do an ultra marathon, they do maybe one in a year and you're like going to be at, or you're at eight or some, something like that. So, so what is.
00:25:02
Speaker
Two ways that I think I can ask this question, what is either right with you or what is wrong with you? That this is what you're doing. You're going so far beyond the norm. Why are you doing? Well, I think there's many three things. One,
00:25:23
Speaker
One, I really love running and I really love running far. Two is I enjoy inspiring people. And probably the most important is, you know, I use running ultras as a way to deal with like stress anxiety and PTSD. So I have a significant amount of PTSD from my job and then, you know, just, I'm a human being and you know, life is hard.
00:25:52
Speaker
global pandemics and, you know, my, my dad died last year and just, you know, things like that, that, uh, you know, are out of your control that, you know, really create a lot of stress and anxiety. So there's a point in a hundred mile race or 200 mile race or whatever, where like my brain just like clicks off and I stop thinking rationally or anything. I just, it's more or less like.
00:26:21
Speaker
I don't know, like I just, I just think about like how to survive. I think about what Andy needs to survive this experience. And it's like a lizard brain sort of, you know, eat, drink, you know, move type like brain activity. And I find it really, really soothing.
00:26:40
Speaker
I really appreciate it. I wish I had longer. I wish I could talk to you again, maybe sometime in the future, but. Season two. Yeah. Well, this season two for sure. Yeah. If you're up for it, it'd be great. Sounds good. Thank you, man. See you later. All right. All right. Happy running.
00:26:58
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, one of the big things that really stood out to me was that he was like, the, the process is the
Philosophy of Process Over Goal
00:27:06
Speaker
joy. Like that is, that was, that was the prize for him was the process, the journey, the struggle. And I'm like, that is just, that is a mindset. That is a mindset that not very many people have. They're saying, no, wait a minute. The goal, the goal is the prize.
00:27:25
Speaker
As I know, listen, the journey is the prize, which I think from a framework of thinking holistically about life, I mean, that's the book of Ecclesiastes, right? The elite or number one female ultramarathon runner named Courtney Dalwalter talks about what he talked about, which is the pain cave.
00:27:44
Speaker
where you're going to a place in the course of the marathon where you just aren't sure that you can go any longer. And there's all kinds of experiences of pain and hallucinations and all of that. And she actually says something kind of strange. She said when she's there, she imagines herself wearing a hard hat and having a chisel in a cavern. And as she runs, her imagination is on chiseling away the walls of the cavern to make the pain cave bigger and bigger.
00:28:14
Speaker
so that she can explore it, which just sounds fascinating and weird at the same time. But it's, it's exactly what you just said is the fulfillment of testing your limits. Yes. There are a couple of things that you did that I just think it, you know, it is true that
00:28:33
Speaker
that a man of understanding is able to draw out the heart. And you really displayed Rush, you did, the skill set of being able to really draw out a person. And the way that you framed things, what I really liked was that
00:28:52
Speaker
you would, you would set up a question that put somebody at ease, which I don't really do as well. I just kind of like jump in. It's like knock, knock, who's there? I'm here. You know, you're like, what are you doing? Why are you, why are you asking these questions? So they're kind of like disoriented, but it was really cool. You're just like, you know what, just in an effort to get to know you better, I want to ask this question and
00:29:19
Speaker
As I listened to the episode, I watched him kind of talk about stuff to then invite you into how he thinks. Even though I wasn't there in the room, I could see your eyes and just leaning in because he's such an interesting person. He really is.
00:29:44
Speaker
Well, that's it for today. Our next episode is going to be released one week from today. So make sure to check us out anywhere you get your podcasts.