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Kickin' it with Dr. Githere-Thande
63 Plays15 days ago
Happy International Women's Day !
In this episode of Kickin' it in the Lounge, we're elated to have Dr. Githere-Thande, join us to kick it! She shares an empowering story about her experiences navigating medical school and residency as a wife, mother, and black woman.
Tune in as our hosts Dr. Dumebi Okocha and Jared Jeffrey spend some time in the lounge!
See you at AMEC! April 1 - April 5 in Pittsburg, PA
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back everybody to another episode of kicking it in the lounge, the podcast where we sit back, relax and get to know the incredible individuals who helped shape the SNMA community and beyond.
00:00:36
Speaker
Today's conversation is guided by myself, Jared Jeffrey, along with my co-host, Dr. Dume B. Ococha. Welcome, Dr. Dume B. Hi. We'll be bringing our own style and energy to the lounge today.
00:00:51
Speaker
And we want to welcome a very, very, very special guest to the lounge. Drum roll, please. Dr. Githera Thonde. Welcome. ha doctor getherra sundaye welcome Hi.
00:01:07
Speaker
We are so glad to have you here today. And we are welcoming you to Kicking it in the Lounge. Thank you guys so much. I'm excited to be here.
00:01:18
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. So um we're going to go back and forth, alternating questions, and hopefully we'll get to know you and a lot more about you. Does that sound good? Yeah, that sounds great. And you can call me Dr. G, by the way. Oh, okay, cool. Dr. G. I like that. I like that. You see, you are you kicking it already.
00:01:37
Speaker
yeah um So I guess my first question will be, tell us a little bit about like your background in medicine and what your um journey through medical school was like.
Dr. Githera Thonde's Journey to Medicine
00:01:49
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So i was born and raised in Northern California, outside of San Francisco. And um I'm one of those people that kind of always and wanted to be a doctor from early on. um But the path was a little bit, you know, not as straightforward. And a lot of us can relate to that. um i ended up going to the University of Pennsylvania for undergrad and then um i was pre-med there, but i was not ready. I got really burned out in undergrad and ended up doing my Master of Public Health first um and then doing clinical research and had like a short career in that before I even
00:02:27
Speaker
applied to med school. So I ended up applying to med school um in 2000. And think it was 2019. And started in 2020. During the pandemic. i say great great idea to start Oh, man. Like, can you imagine remote med school? Like, I didn't even do anatomy lab. Wow. so yeah Because they did not let us they weren't letting us be in person. So um i ended up in Indiana. So I went from Northern California, like born and raised to Philly for undergrad, back to Northern California for to work at UCSF know in between and then um to Indiana. So I've been all around. yeah um And, you know, it was med school was i think when you're non-traditional, you have such a different value for the experience of med school because you're like, I have waited a long time for this. I've you know, I'm sure that this is what I want to do um And so it was challenging because I was a little older, but I i thrived, I think, once i kind of got started, um I think.
00:03:36
Speaker
the more challenging parts were towards the end when I had my daughter. So um I think there's you know there's a lot I could talk about kind of with regards to just you know obviously being a but a Black woman in medical school in Indiana and all the experiences you know that came with that because they look at you like you walk in the room um and they're like, who's this, right? um Especially because if we had some very rural rotations, like in the middle of like nowhere. yeah um
00:04:07
Speaker
So for me being from the Bay, which is really diverse and that's like just what I was used to. And I went to school in Philly, which is, you know, obviously a very beautiful black city, you know, full of culture. Indiana was different.
00:04:19
Speaker
um And so that was that was something. um But yeah, so I don't know, I had a great experience in med school. I think having had a career prior, I think I was really able to navigate some of these spaces with faculty and my professors. And they always said, you know, you're really mature. And I was able to just really, you know,
00:04:42
Speaker
just utilize my skillset from being a professional prior to med school and leverage that to get what I needed through my med school journey. And I think that's like a big kind of piece of advice I always give non-traditional students is use your background to help you when you get there, right? Like, you know what it's like to be in a work environment, you know how to be mature. Like there's gonna be kids there who've never had a job a day in their life, right? So something that we can use to leverage and you know, navigate these spaces a little bit easier is that, you know, professionalism and maturity. So anyway, but yeah, so that was med school for me. Yeah, I graduated in 2024 and now I'm a second year resident in family medicine.
Choosing Family Medicine
00:05:24
Speaker
Yeah. And why do you choose family medicine? Yeah, so I went in thinking OB-GYN all the way. i was ready to do reproductive health. I had worked in like a bunch of like reproductive health research studies as a research coordinator. um Maternal mortality is like a huge passion of mine, you know, and reducing that and you know, black women in this country. healthcare care disparities, all of that. So I was like, there's no way anything is going to sway me more than OB-GYN when I get to med school.
00:05:53
Speaker
But when I started my third year rotations, um I had internal medicine first and I was like, absolutely not. right yeah And then I had, i think I had peds next and I did inpatient peds and i was like, oh damn, I really like these kids. Like I loved the kids. I knew and I've always liked kids, but I was like, OB-GYN won't let me deal with any children, right? yeah And I didn't have OB. Oh, after peds, I had family medicine and I did it at a residency program. It was rural, like middle of nowhere, Indiana. But that was a really good rotation because I got to be so hands-on. I got to see what family medicine can be, right? Which is,
00:06:37
Speaker
derm procedures in clinic, it's gyne, right? So you're still getting to do that reproductive health. There's mental health care, there's PEDS, there's chronic disease management, which isn't my favorite thing, but it is really fulfillment fulfilling to be able to get someone's A1C down, you know, and to really connect with them and teach them about how to, you know, maintain their blood sugar and work on blood pressure. And so there's fulfillment in that too. But I got to no day was no two days are the same. And I really liked it. I was shocked at how much I liked it. So um I finally had my OB rotation in the spring a third year.
00:07:13
Speaker
And every time someone had a baby, i was no longer interested in mama. i was over there trying to be with the baby. And so I was like, I don't think I could give up the kids. And so, and I'm like, with family medicine, in theory, if I really want to do the OB portion, at least, you know, uncomplicated deliveries and stuff, I could always do obe fellowship as an FM provider.
00:07:35
Speaker
So I was like, okay, we're going family medicine. So um I was, i just kind of went full speed ahead with that because I was like, I think this is, this is going to be what's for me. I think being a black woman, there's just so few black providers, period. But primary care, it's like we're very much the foundation of medicine in a certain kind of way. And I think it's so important to see people who look like you in these foundational spaces in the health care system.
00:08:03
Speaker
Um, and so it just really motivated me to just, just pursue it, like go for it. So yeah, that's how I ended up in family medicine. lovely I always love hearing a story ah yeah about someone who yeah, thinks they're going into one thing and then they just fall in love with another rotation. It's it's it's always so nice.
00:08:21
Speaker
Yeah. And it's funny because like, every day I go to work, like, you know, and residency is hard. Don't get me wrong. But I look forward to going to work. Like I'm looking forward to tomorrow and I'm in residency and it's tough and the learning curve is what it is. But that's how I know I chose right specialty, too, because even though I'm working hard and long hours and have a lot of responsibilities, it's like, I look forward to getting to do what I get to do every day. And that's that's a blessing, obviously. But I definitely feel good about my choice to go into family medicine.
00:08:53
Speaker
That's amazing.
Balancing Motherhood and Medical School
00:08:54
Speaker
That's amazing. So you mentioned earlier that um you had a baby in medical school. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, um I was doing the most, I think, in in a general sense, um because being nontraditional, I was a little older when I started. I had ah you know my long term partner, my now husband.
00:09:16
Speaker
He was in the Bay Area. met him. We love that. We love that. Yeah, yeah. So I was like, you know, he was in the Bay Area. We met, you know, when I was in those gap years. And then I got into med school and had to move to Indiana.
00:09:29
Speaker
And so we did like long distance order for a year. Then he proposed and moved to Indiana. And i was like in my late 20s by that time. um and so we're like let's just we bought a house we got we planned two not one but two weddings because our families are both from kenya and so our families wanted to do a traditional wedding out there okay and then so we planned that and went and did that like i took level one right at the end of second year and then we went for our traditional wedding for two weeks we went all the way to kenya for just two weeks before i started rotation doing the most might have been understatement doing the most, okay? Like, what was that? And then had another wedding in Indiana in that December of um third year.
00:10:15
Speaker
And so, um and then we got a dog and we got a second dog. And all I'm saying is like, we I just decided, I guess we're going to live life. Like, med school's not stopping a thing because, you know,
00:10:28
Speaker
we got those two dogs and life was good. I mean, I was managing to balance it all, but I, I had this like very deep seated fear. And I think i sometimes still think about it this way, but i think something we don't talk enough about sometimes is the fertility issues that a lot of women in medicine face, um, due to delayed childbearing. And that was something I was always like, I have some friends who have had some struggles conceiving. um and I was like, you don't know if you can get pregnant until you try. right And so um I was in a stable place. you know place We had a beautiful home. you know I have my partner. I'm like, let's just do it. There's no good time to decide to have a kid. like As long as you feel like you have the capacity to parent, that was kind of my mindset, right? And a partner o an equal partner who's going to share in that with you. So we were like, let's have a kid. Cool.
00:11:15
Speaker
So I got pregnant in a third year, end of third year. And then... um That was again, doing the most because i had to take, I took level two, very like like, I think it was right at the end of my first trimester. I took and my EM shelf. I took um my clinical, like there was a clinical skills exit exam that was hours long where you're seeing like, OSCE, OSCE, OSCE, like it's to finish, to graduate.
00:11:44
Speaker
I did my residency applications, all this stuff while pregnant and exhausted. then I had three away rotations as well scheduled for family medicine because I really needed to kind of show them in California, like I'm coming back home. I need to do these rotations so that, you know, I get to know these programs. um And so in the fall, um I wasn't going to be due till like February of fourth year, but What ended up happening was I was in the Bay Area doing my rotations and ended up having a 27 week preemie.
00:12:17
Speaker
Right. And ultimately, we never really figured out why I went into preterm labor, what was going on, because like essentially when that happens, they send like your placenta to pathology and whatever. um and They didn't really, like maybe an intrauterine infection, maybe, but like they couldn't identify something in particular. it wasn't like placental abrum. There was nothing that you could really identify with.
00:12:44
Speaker
um And baby girl didn't have any like anatomic things that might have, you know, like it was just, it didn't make sense. So anyway, but I kind of gave all that context to say, like, I wonder if sometimes you feel like you can take on more than maybe you can, right? And I didn't really feel like I was more stressed or, you know, life had always been that busy for me, but when you're pregnant, it's not that simple. Like your body is really going through a lot. Right. And I don't think I was giving myself that time to rest and, you know, just, just, it's a lot like pregnancy is taken lightly sometimes. And I think at least in all of this, I i don't really, i don't blame myself. Like I couldn't have changed anything, but.
00:13:30
Speaker
taking it easy and really respecting the fact of what your body's doing is a big deal. And I think it's important to kind of always say that. um But ultimately, yeah, had her at 27 weeks and three days. Actually, her second birthday was on Tuesday. wow um She was born on 1111. I always have to shout this out because it's like my little miracle baby.
00:13:54
Speaker
1111 1 11 PM. And I had her in room 11. love that that. like how me how was it navigating, you know, the NICU and being, you know, a medical student, you're like, you're still applying to residency around this time.
00:14:14
Speaker
NICU can be, you know, cause like from what I see on like the OB side, you know, they deliver at, you know, 20 something weeks and then they're there for sometimes up to like they're due like 35 weeks, depending on like the hospital where they are. So sometimes like the babies can stay there, you know, for a long time. So it's a lot of like emotional burden, sometimes financial burden. Plus you're like, you know, in this critical time in your career. So like, how did you and your partner, you know, navigate that?
00:14:43
Speaker
That's a great question. It was a whirlwind. like If I can say that like this was probably the most stressful time, and I can really only say that I got through it with the support of obviously my partner, but my mom, because I was in the Bay Area. like Meanwhile, I was in med school in Indiana. I was yeah in the Bay Area. for an audition rotation. Thank God I had applied for Medi-Health so I could get prenatal care because that's what saved me with regards to healthcare, care right? Because now you had this baby and this baby now needs to live in the hospital, right? It was hugely burdensome with regards to
00:15:20
Speaker
like emotional and like, you know, my husband still was working full time in Indiana. He was back and forth every week um to see the baby. yeah um i stayed it in the Bay because she was in the NICU for three months. So she got discharged after her due date, her actual due date, yeah which is like every day going to the NICU to see your baby is, it's like, cause the delivery and everything was smooth for me. I recovered pretty quickly. yeah um course you're like breastfeeding and like, well really you're pumping, which is also kind of a whole nother thing. You're like, weren't, you're not mentally prepared to have a baby yet. Like your body is like also so early, like you're 27 weeks. So it was just like everything, you know, not ready. Yeah.
00:16:09
Speaker
For sure. Not ready. Thank God for technology, though, like and like the ability to keep babies alive at that you know yeah gestational age. Right. you know she didn't really have complications either. Right. She came out, she cried. Her ab guards were like six and then nine.
00:16:26
Speaker
Yeah. So she was fine. Did she get the mag? Did she get mag? It's blessing. So she had gotten, um, she got the steroids, like I got steroids to help with lung development. And so we did all the things that we could do. yeah Um,
00:16:42
Speaker
kind of we were essentially they were tocalizing for a couple days because I was dilating. So essentially they were trying to stop or slow labor because they were there was like this in between, right? Cause she was so early. um And at that point every extra day kind of does matter. And so um then eventually we were like, let's just have this baby because I don't want to have like an emergency C-section for a two pound baby. That's ridiculous. You're not kidding me for that. like yeah So, but we had gotten all the, you know, the steroids and all the things that helped support her. She was never intubated. She didn't have a brain bleed. She never had, you know, those gut issues that like necrotizing her. Yeah, necrotizing her colitis and all those things. Yeah. um
00:17:22
Speaker
She was like, all she did was she had CPAP. She never even, met like that was it. Yeah. um She was a feeder grower is what we they call them in the NICU. Like she was in there for three months each trying to learn to eat and breathe at the same, you know, like where you can actually eat and breathe at the same time. She was the chunkiest one in there. Everybody knew her cause she was so cute and chunky. good.
00:17:47
Speaker
It was overwhelming though. like It was every day because you're like, I need this baby to come home. I'm so tired of coming to this hospital. I'm sick of seeing you guys. I'm so grateful that you guys are taking care of her, but I want to take my baby home. Yeah. you know Yeah. yeah um and In the end, like the cost, I looked at the bill at the end of her NICU statement. This is over a million dollars. Yeah.
00:18:10
Speaker
Okay. It's an ICU. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. Absolutely. yeah because And in this country, I'm like, thank God for Medi-Cal Medicaid. That's why like the political climate we're in is so challenging because I'm like, dude, no one, no like 1% of this country can afford a $1 million dollar bill, you know, from a hospital, right? Like we need to have reliable health insurance and health coverage. Like, because I had no control over the situation, right? And neither did that innocent baby. So over a million dollars later, right?
00:18:46
Speaker
And I didn't pay a single dollar of it because of government programs, Medi-Cal, Medicaid, you know, um, that's why this funding stuff matters so much, you know, just to kind of link it to what is going on in the, in this country right now. Um, so yeah, it was, it was a lot. And, uh, thankfully my school at the time, um I was on an away rotation when I went into labor, they were you know, obviously understanding when I had the baby that I wasn't going to come back.
00:19:16
Speaker
um So I told my school immediately and like, just to like, because I had built such good relationships with the administration at my school and the professors, they were more willing to do me favors to make sure I graduate because I had already fulfilled all my requirements. um i had a couple more in-person rotations i needed to do but i was like i gotta be here for this amount of time until she's out so they were like you can do online rotations wow so in case anyone you know out there needs that little bit of advice during fourth year you can go on vslo or whatever and look for online rotations that'll count towards you know your and these were
00:19:54
Speaker
They were reasonably easy, I'd say. Like I did a derm rotation, I did like a radiology one, like just different ones to kind of like, I was like, that looks good, that seems interesting.
00:20:05
Speaker
um And they counted towards my, you know, towards graduation. That's love, yeah. Yes, thank God, they were so understanding. So that's kind of how I managed it is i did online rotations and um and I had already applied to residency. So i was actually, I gave birth on a Saturday. i had I had a residency interview on Monday, right? Like, can you imagine the kind of like mental gymnastics you have to do to be like, hey, I gave birth to this 27 week preemie that's still in the hospital, but I got to switch up, right? Yeah, what did you do? Like, did you, you went to the interview that Monday?
00:20:43
Speaker
Yes, because I was like, I mean, All of them were virtual, so it's not like I had to like travel or do anything. And I'm like, you just got to keep it together for a couple hours. That's true. Yeah. know But it's crazy. Like, and again, it's like, you don't know how strong you are until you have to do things like that. Right. Right. um Because I normally't you didn't talk about it. Like, not that day. I hadn't even processed it. Like, i I'm a new mom, first time mom, had this traumatic experience that i haven't even nearly started to process. um And so, but I was like, i mean, I'm not going to, I've worked so hard already. You know, i just got to I got to see you through. Like, that's,
00:21:24
Speaker
And so that's what I did because I had them scheduled. like And I was like, you know what? That's fine. We're just going to make it work. Interview so that you can come back home to the Bay. like That was the motivation.
00:21:38
Speaker
So I can be around family and friends. like I got to get out of India and then now we have this baby. um i need my mom, right? so i made it I made it work somehow, actually in hindsight. In I don't know how. I'm just listening to it. I'm just like, I don't know. who i in terms of like Like you said, you never know how strong you are until you have to do like hard things. So I just can't imagine like being in the fourth year of med school, early residency, whatever. And then you know this thing happens to you where you haven't even gotten to your glucola yet. like You were literally not expecting it. You literally were not, you haven't got your TDAP, your glucola, nothing. And then you go into labor, you deliver and you have an interview on Monday. It just literally blows my mind. I don't know. You're strong. and That's all. You're, you're, you're amazing. So.
00:22:30
Speaker
I mean, without, and again, like I just emphasize how important it is to have like a supportive partner. And cause you really don't know like what you're going to face in life. Like, thank God I have a strong relationship with my mom. because i was staying with her at the time during this away rotation. And like, if I had not, if I had been in a random state with nobody, which could have happened, like, you know, that would have been a whole different situation. Yeah. Huh.
00:22:55
Speaker
Crazy. so you know, nothing happened. Everything happens for a reason, you know, and it happens, the it happened the way it did. So that, you know, I don't know why, but i just feel like,
00:23:07
Speaker
in a really messed up situation, it's as good as it could have been because I had a mom, right? And we had written the resources from our baby. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly gosh yeah so yeah that's that's quite the story.
00:23:21
Speaker
ah You mentioned the importance of a supportive partner going through all of that. Could you tell us a little bit about what it was like? So one, you know being in a relationship, going through medical medical school, and then being married, going through medical school, and now being married and a mother going through residency.
Marriage and Career as a Black Woman
00:23:39
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Um, I think again, yeah this is why I wanted to you know, talk about these things because i don't hear people talking to that much about this stuff, especially in the medical community, especially as black people. Right. yeah And so, um my partner is very, he's not in medicine. so that's like one thing. Um, so his schedule, he ha he works in like operations management, something completely different. um And he has just had a stable career through our entire relationship.
00:24:09
Speaker
Thank Jesus, right? Because when you're in training, it's whatever, you get whatever you get. like yeah isn' yeah men Yeah, exactly. Simple, no undulating this.
00:24:20
Speaker
The straight and narrow is fine. Yeah.
00:24:25
Speaker
So this man has been very stable and um I think that's a huge part of you know his ability to have supported me so wholeheartedly to like follow this dream. is like He was good with you know his career and stable and he was actually able to transfer jobs from here in the Bay Area. He works for a company where they had ah like a branch in Indiana. So he was able to make a cross-country transfer. Again, everything happens for a reason. Like I'm a big believer. Like I'm, you know, maybe not the most religious person, but spiritually I'm like, things don't just happen. Right. Like right it just fell into place so beautifully. So he was able to transfer. um And again, that helps because we had the, you know, resources to, you know, at least kind of have a stable life and lifestyle. um who
00:25:11
Speaker
Yeah. He's just, I think, he was just very supportive of the dream. like I was like, I'm doing this for us, right? And let's you know start this family. And because I wanted it all and i did I don't get to see that many people who decide to pursue all of it at the same time. Yeah.
00:25:29
Speaker
Right. And i wanted i wanted it all. like I was like, let's figure this out. Did I do the most? Clearly, yes. But it's doable with the right supportive person by your side. And that's what he is Yeah, and i think I think we have a lot of similarities. like First, you're both like second year residents. And then my fiance is Kenyan. I'm Nigerian. So that's also risky. Oh, that's crazy. Exactly. And then he also is not in medicine and transferred over like with his job to Cincinnati. So it's very similar how like everything kind of works out. I'm seeing a theme here. I'm seeing a theme. It's very interesting. like We're almost like doppelgangers almost. And we're both in the Midwest and everything. So...
00:26:11
Speaker
This might be the recipe to black love and medicine. i don't know. It might be. And like what you're saying about people not like pursuing it all. But if you look at other demographics, they pursue it all with no problem. But you find that with black women, a lot of us are lonely at the top. You know what I mean? And I are actually like pretty passionate about like black people finding their person while still achieving all the things that they can achieve and not settling for anything less. um I just feel like a lot of times either
00:26:45
Speaker
um Because a lot of times as like first generation Americans, you're the first person to go to college or whatever, you're putting this line of like you have to succeed and you can't look anywhere else. And the tunnel vision is like this, and you achieve your goal and you look around and you're like, oh,
00:26:59
Speaker
you know, all the other things I wanted to accomplish, have a husband, have a child, um do a side hustle, have a hobby, nothing exists, but you have your your doctor, yay, congrats, but you can't enjoy, you know, the finances of it and like the status of it because there's no one to share it with, which I feel like, you know, what's the point of achieving everything if you don't have the people around you to share it with? So um I definitely agree. Like, it needs to be talked about more about how black women can find their people and still accomplish what we're accomplishing. So.
00:27:33
Speaker
100% agree. Like, this is exactly why I was like, this is a topic I want to talk about. Like, I think it's possible. And I think the number of people who told me, because i actively dated, I'm not the kind of person who sitting at home thinking I'm gonna find somebody, right? Like, I wasn't I was a around. like i was black kind out i Yeah. You know, and I was like, you know, especially during that gap period where I wasn't in school and I was working, like that was a good time because I was, I was in my mid twenties. I was like, this is great. Like, you know, I've got a job. I'm like stable. Like I have these dreams, but I'm out with friends. I'm doing, I'm living life. Right. And I, I encourage young women. If you know that this is something you want, like you can't sit around and think it's just going to find you. No. Right. Like there's no, I said the same thing to young men too, but.
00:28:19
Speaker
specifically young women, you know, who know that this is something that they're going to want is like, don't wait too long, like be out there and get to know what you want and what you don't want in a partner actively enjoy life, you know, don't take it too seriously. But at the same time, I think that was part of why it was possible for me to like kind of have it all is because I was like, I know what I want, so gotta go for it.
00:28:41
Speaker
People will tell you, no, why are you even like, what's point of dating or whatever? Like, just wait, you have you're gonna go to med school. You'll meet someone later. You'll meet someone later. And it's like, No, there were like four i don't get in in my class. Like it gets smaller at the top. It literally gets smaller at the top. So you better find them where you are now because the more you achieve is like slim pickings. that i know So you better find them at your level and make them come up with you. That's, you know, that's what do.
00:29:10
Speaker
Honestly, I agree. And I think it's just also just believing that you can have, like, don't let other people like speak doubt into your life too, right? Because- Because the number of people who are like, you know, not that encouraging about going to med school and becoming a doctor, especially because like that stuff seeped into my spirit during undergrad, especially during my the period of burnout. And, you know, I got a master of public health of thinking maybe this is something, odd you know, you're trying to sidestep your dream because you're like maybe I can be happy doing something easier. yeah Like, nah, it still came back. Like I still had to, but people, like I had to, I had to like,
00:29:47
Speaker
continue to tell myself i can i can achieve this goal of becoming a physician like if that's what i want i'm never going to be happy until i get it like until i get there right and i'm so glad i did because now i get to wake up every day and go to a place to do a thing that i enjoy and i am making an impact right um same thing with like having my husband and my daughter it's like I'm so glad that, you know, like I found somebody and that he was willing to make the sacrifices that it took to move across the country with me and build this life. And, um and yeah, like being a, being a spouse, being a wife in the midst of kind of all of this training is really hard. I would say, and this is just me being very candid, keeping it so real, being a partner is probably the hardest role I play right now. Mm-hmm.
00:30:40
Speaker
and Could you elaborate on that a little bit? yeah's Yeah, I know. Kind of a hot take. um But being a physician, being in residency is hard because of the hours and things like that. But I've worked so hard that like it just and it comes easily because I just love it so much. Like I've had a love for medicine for a long time. It's deep. It's part of me. So i don't find it hard to go to work and like just get in the zone. Being a mother is also just like unconditional love like that doesn't matter. like Every day I see that little face and it's just, I'm down to do whatever for you whenever, right? like yeah That is parenthood.
00:31:17
Speaker
I love that baby down. Like it doesn't matter what she does. she s sleptsh if She's a toddler. She slaps. She's doing all kinds of crazy stuff, right? But I still, it doesn't matter. She can do whatever. But being a partner, right? if Someone talked to me about this in a very interesting way. Imagine like I have one sibling. She and I,
00:31:35
Speaker
get into little tiffs and arguments. We have both the same parents and grew up in the same household, yet we're still not the same person. Now you've gone out and you find a person who you love and you have decided to create a life with, but of course you're not going to always see eye to eye. Of course you're not goingnna always be super excited to be around each other, right? But you make that choice to love them no matter what every single day. And when you have all these other competing interests like we do in training and like when you do when you're a parent, it is so easy for that person kind of the the work you have to put into a relationship to fall to the bottom of the list. And I think that's what makes it so difficult. And that's what makes it, you know, that's why I say like, that's the hardest role I play because it's so easy to be like that person's an adult. They're all right. But it's like, nah, we got to pour into our relationship regardless. Like yeah this is something you got to work on. If you want this, you got to work on it. um And so it's a work in progress.
00:32:31
Speaker
But like at the end of the day, I'm, when you're all in with, you know, your partner and you're creating this life, it's like, it's always going to kind of ebb and flow. Um, times there's times when we're just, things just feel great and like, we're just flowing. And then there are times where it's like, well, we got to work on some things or we really got to take time to like, you know, go out together and have some fun and reconnect. And like, that's all the young kind of married folks I know are kind of in the same boat.
00:33:01
Speaker
Well, yeah. Very nice. Very nice. So um we could pivot a little bit.
Experiences as a Black Woman in Medicine
00:33:09
Speaker
Tell us a little bit about your experience as not a mother, not a wife, just a black woman in medicine.
00:33:18
Speaker
ah yeah Especially, and if you could give us a little bit of contrast between your program in Indiana and your residency now back in California.
00:33:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question. i mean, being a black woman in medicine, right? Like we get, I feel like I'm being tried a lot. Like that's, that's really what it comes down to. Like sometimes, so in Indiana,
00:33:44
Speaker
you know, rural environments where there's just not any diversity. It's a lot of like small town white folk for better, for lack of better terminology, right? Where they just grew up around the same kind of people they're still around in the small towns, right? So, you know, it's not always their fault that they don't have a wider worldview. So anytime I used to walk into rooms and some of those clinics and stuff, like they'd be trying to be respectful, but they're like,
00:34:10
Speaker
shook that like this Black woman just walked into this room and is about to try and tell them something, right? right um And so that was very much my experience. I never really, i i got lucky and I didn't have any really wild, overtly racist experiences. But as a Black woman in Madison, you always can feel that side eye or that, you know, they question you a little more and they you have you feel like you have to prove yourself more in some of those like spaces. Mm-hmm. But I think because of the maturity and the experience I had had prior, like if that's it's in school, like I don't feel like anyone ever questioned the fact that like I was about my business when it came down to like academics and those sorts of things and just making sure performed and did what I had to do. but you might you let you led with your professionalism and that kind of helped.
00:35:01
Speaker
Yeah, and I mean, we just don't get the benefit of the doubt in the same ways other demographics do. Like black people, period, men and women, like they're looking for a reason to to question your abilities. And I came in with that knowledge and I was like, let me leverage some of the skillset that I've gotten working in predominantly white spaces, having gone to the University of Pennsylvania with all these you know affluent you know white folks, right? I went to prep school too growing up. yeah So i had I was on scholarship in prep school. And so I grew up in these predominantly white affluent spaces and learned this like soft skill set of how to like navigate these spaces. um
00:35:42
Speaker
And so that that was to my benefit in a place like Indiana. But now in California, um it's just nice to not have quite the same. I don't need to have my guard up quite in the same way because it's just a more diverse environment. um But at the same time, in formal medicine, you're still going to come across your attendings and preceptors that, yeah you're in the Bay, but like,
00:36:07
Speaker
I just still don't think we get any grace for small mistakes as black women. and Those are the drawbacks. It's like you have to it's you have to be perfect in certain ways, right?
00:36:18
Speaker
Or else you're going to be quite your professionalism is gonna be questioned. yeah i' was recently called disengaged on one of my evaluations. Oh yeah, those evaluations. I stopped reading them if I'm being honest. I'm so over the emails. I was like, just tell it to me. I'm sorry writing it down.
00:36:36
Speaker
Thank you thank you. And that's the thing, like they will never say it to you directly. They'll never say it. And that is, that is my, that's my gripe with these evaluations. because Yeah, I like Because once you're in residency, it'll take a lot.
00:36:48
Speaker
Yep. You're like, whatever. They're not gonna fire you based on an evaluation. I wish they would try. It's just complete. Right? It's much, too much paperwork. exactly like if a patient didn't die right like what you firing me for why are you coming for me don't come for me everyone's safe so i don't even really read the evaluations as often anymore i used to intern year because i was like oh maybe there's something there to like improve upon whatever now second year you start to kind of be like it doesn't have that much bearing yeah yeah i just kind of yeah so anyway yeah there's just not a lot of grace given to
00:37:28
Speaker
you know, Black identifying folks, Black presenting folks. um And I've realized that and I don't, it sucks, but at the end of the day, nothing beats that moment you walk into a Black patient's room and they realize you're their doctor. Exactly.
00:37:44
Speaker
Nothing. that That joy that they so feel, that connection, that ah I've delivered Black babies, like that feeling of like, it's just, those are the joys of being a Black woman. When the patient gets to drop their guard.
00:37:58
Speaker
Yes, exactly. yeah It makes it worth that, you know, the struggle of having to get through training in these environments. Yeah. And I always have to tell myself, like the people around me may not look like me, but my patients look like me like I'm in Cincinnati. So like even if all around me, I'm just seeing, you know, I'm the only black girl in the room, whatever. But most of the patients that I'm seeing are black and Hispanic people um and like people from like West Africa, East Africa, Spanish speaking country. So most of the patient population looks like me. So if anything, like
00:38:34
Speaker
I'm not saying they're not assets, but I'm an asset here. You know what I mean? So like even if no one's looking like you, your patients appreciate you, you know? And i have to like, look, I'm not serving them. I'm serving the community. And as long as I look like my community, then I'm fine. You know what I mean? So.
00:38:50
Speaker
Yes, 100%. hundred percent And, that you know, it's actually so my residency program is in Sonoma County, which is like wine country. So it's a little further north in the Bay Area. So it is actually a wider community than I personally would have liked to train in. um But I chose a training environment that was like family friendly. That was part of one of the things that I was looking for is.
00:39:12
Speaker
do any of those residents have kids? Like, what are your policies on, you know, time off? What are, you know, like my program, we don't work nights or 24s, like, oh at all. oh my You know, stuff like that.
00:39:23
Speaker
so I know, I know.
00:39:28
Speaker
Struck you, baby. Ooh, maybe I should switch. Ooh, Lord. I know. Listen, you it's even rare in the family medicine world, residency world, for that to be a thing. Like, that is something our program has made a conscious effort to do but for wellness sake. um And, you know, we still, I still have my 80-hour weeks and things like that, but it's just not, it's not that at night, and it's not 24 in a row, right? Exactly. I wish.
00:39:56
Speaker
Yes. yeah So I gave up some of the patient population things because I know I can, once I'm an attending, I can make, I can choose that patient population. yeah Right. Like I'll just move to Oakland, like yeah easy. Um, and I'll serve all the black folks. like So, um, I made choices about that, but the end of the day, yeah, like we're, we're needed in these phases. And so, um, and we are,
00:40:23
Speaker
We are an asset to these spaces no matter what. And I try to remind myself that no matter what, like, it's important. I have to be there, you know? Yeah. yeah i am Yeah, I think especially in family medicine and Dr. Kocha, you being in OB-GYN, like you guys are also like what I believe is like frontline kind of like response, you know, where like people come in in crisis and it's like, oh, like you are definitely like a relief to see someone that looks like you in this time when, you know, I'm trying to find answers on what's going on. right I don't have time for the runaround. I don't have time for microaggressions. I'm just trying to, you know, like
00:41:01
Speaker
navigate my condition and nothing. else and yeah When you're 10 centimeters about to coach, you don't care who it is as long as there's somebody to catch. So they don't care. Whoever, I'll put my legs for whoever and catch the baby. You do not even care. You're like, get that baby out. Yeah. You're not even asking who I am. You don't know if I'm the med student. don't know who you're like, oh, just someone catching my baby. So yeah. Literally.
00:41:24
Speaker
And then in the same breath, like OBGYN and family medicine, like working in like the primary care preventative health space, like most healthy women are either going to family medicine or their OBGYN, like one of the two. We do a lot with like, you know, pap smear screening and like, um,
00:41:41
Speaker
just like adult health maintenance in general for women. And I think, especially in like the black space, that's where we need to like, really like be on the front lines of that too, because a lot of women are not getting their checks. They're not getting their pap smears for one. They're not getting their DEXA scans. They're not getting their mammograms. No. um some of them have like extensive like breast cancer history and we're not calculating like oh do we need to move up their mammogram timeline you know like there's just certain things that we need to educate our community like fibroids even like things like that like we need to educate our community on saying like you don't have to suffer with these conditions like you can go to your pcp go to your ob-gyn and like when they see us and then we're telling them like this is not normal but like oh my whole family you know has gone through this and like
00:42:22
Speaker
you know having heavy menstrual bleeding where you're like getting transfused is not normal you know what i mean and um i think in those spaces that's where we really come in and say like look at me we look alike and i'm telling you it's not normal so exactly is that innate like ability to build trust because it's like i'm not i'm here to tell you the real and it's funny because from a patient perspective right like when i'm the patient i've been lucky to find i have a black ob-gyne currently, and I have a Black PCP currently. And I have had these beautiful visits with them where I'm like, damn, I feel so seen. And so being on the patient side of it, I'm like, this is what I'm providing you know for people when I get to be that Black provider. um and it's so special and so important because, yeah, and like I love doing dyne. I still love reproductive health. And so you know i love doing perimenopausal care and menopausal care and all these things. And I just think it's so important that
00:43:20
Speaker
I get to be doing this for my community, right? And putting it out there that, like, we need to take care of ourselves and this is how. Lovely. yeah
Advice for Non-Traditional Medical Students
00:43:30
Speaker
um So Dr. G, while while I have you here, got to take the opportunity, pick your brain just a little bit. you know I myself am a non-traditional student, um currently working, right currently in the GAP. I finished a master's, currently in an actual career, and will soon be applying to medical school.
00:43:50
Speaker
could you give me um You gave me a little bit of sauce, definitely. Lean on the professionalism. Could you give me a little bit of ah Anything else that you might have like wisdom wise to go from, you know, professional setting, getting actually into medical school and navigating medical school?
00:44:07
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, i think the big things here are, you know, that MCAT, I hated it, but it matters, right? Like get it done, decently enough and that'll open doors like automatically because like,
00:44:24
Speaker
you have all the you know clinical experience if you're working in some kind of healthcare care field, right? Got the passion, you' you you know when you're involved in things like SNMA or maps or whatever it might be, um you're showing that passion and commitment for you know this community in a certain kind of way. So for me personally, I think crafting an application is a bit of a skill and an art. It's not just slapping things on the pay you know the the computer and hoping it sticks. I think there's a lot, there's a story there and finding that thread is also going to be really important because now being on the other side when I'm in residency and we're reading even just you know applicants, you know their their um applications, I'm like, yo, like there's no cohesive story here. And you know so I think really crafting an application, having a mentor to kind of like help you read that and say, you got to highlight this, like this is really special about you, right? Someone who's where you want to be, um who maybe even hopefully looks like you, right? Like, I love doing mentorship. Like, I have a mentee right now who's in a similar position to you, a non-traditional, and is going to be looking to um apply to med school. And so we're, you know, chatting and
00:45:37
Speaker
Those are the kinds of things that really will help kind of make you stand out when you do put that application in. right um But at the same time too, I didn't have a perfect GPA by any means. I didn't have a perfect and MCAT score by any means. But I think that crafting that application the way I did and having a story and really being able to express myself, like a couple bad schools took a chance on me and I ran with it. you know um It takes one acceptance is kind of always what I tell people. It takes one, take it and go, like run with it.
00:46:11
Speaker
Show all these places that said no, what you can do though, right? um Yeah, you just have to believe in yourself, I think too. It's just, i'm I'm a little delulu clearly, cause I'd just be doing stuff, but a little bit of delusion, i think, and and a lot of hard work will get you where you need to be. yeah that's That's me, I don't know.
00:46:34
Speaker
A little Delulu and a lot of hard work. I like that one. might get that put on a bumper sticker. Yeah. yeah You got to believe in some crazy stuff and then just be like, will work towards it. And then it's like, you know, Yeah.
00:46:48
Speaker
yeah So that's like my little bits of advice, you know, get that MCAT, but crafting a really, a beautiful story about yourself on that application is going to, it's going to, it's going to get you in.
00:46:59
Speaker
It's going to get you in. and mentorship if you can if you can have it. Yeah. Got you. Knowing all of that down. Yeah. Thank you very much. who So i can hear my child in for those that are listening, um where can they reach you? Like, do you have a platform, um a mentorship site, email, whichever? um How are you like sharing your message out there?
00:47:26
Speaker
Yeah.
Social Media and Personal Branding
00:47:27
Speaker
So that's a great question because I started putting it out there on Instagram. I was like, you know what? I'm not seeing a lot of folks who are doing the family thing in the midst of training who look like me. And I want to talk about the real. I want to put it out there. I want to give advice to pre-meds and med students and whatever, you know, anyone who also wants to have that family during training potentially or you know, provide encouragement. So Instagram has been kind of a bit of my creative outlet in that way. um And so my Instagram is and at diary of a doctor mom.
00:48:02
Speaker
And so um I've been trying to just build that platform and really just a lot of encouragement, right? Telling my own story and really encouraging people to just follow your dreams, both professional and personal. That's like the big thing. Um, and on there, like there's a link to my email address and some folks email and message me. And that's some of the, like just reaching a larger audience, right. So that I can literally, like, if I can help you, I'm going to help, you you know, and that's, um, I have people email me. I'm like, just asking for little bits of advice and things like that. And, you know, that's the stuff that also fills my cup kind of outside of, you know, specifically my job and my family is like being able to like reach a hand down and help other people who look like us be
00:48:45
Speaker
get to being a physician because the fulfillment I feel, I want, I want other people to be able to have that. um And so, yeah, so I've just been building that platform and, you know, posting a lot of just different stuff, but mostly encouraging, you know, young women, especially to, to pursue their dreams and just go for it.
00:49:06
Speaker
Very nice, very nice.
Alternative Career Paths
00:49:08
Speaker
So um we do this thing on Kicking in the Lounge where we ask the prior guest to leave a question for the following guest.
00:49:20
Speaker
ah Yeah. So this question was left by Dr. Iggy and it is, what would you be doing now if you weren't practicing medicine?
00:49:33
Speaker
Ooh, that's a good question. Wow, what would I be doing? i'm like 32. always think like deep down, like, I think maybe it's the Bay Area connection. I feel like I would have gone into tech or something like, like, which is so funny because like, I always did like these little programming projects during statistics class and during, you know, and I always excelled. i just didn't have as much passion, but if I had just gone a different way and been like, I'm just, I'm a pursue that.
00:50:07
Speaker
I think that might've been what I would have ended up doing. And maybe it's also the Bay Area, right? So there's tons of tech out here. um It would have been kind of an easy thing to kind of do and get a job. and just And then trout I mean, I'd be traveling a lot more to like, I think in tech would have allowed that because I would have quite a few dollars in the bank, you know? ah So I think I think if in an alternate universe, i'm a little tech, I'm a tech girl, like, you know, traveling and doing that. Okay. Okay.
00:50:36
Speaker
Now I got to think of the next. guy yeah I got to think of a question for the next person. There you go. You just beat me to it. So now you don't know who the next person is going to be, but give us a question for them.
00:50:49
Speaker
No pressure. I know. I'm like, I'm like, I don't know. What should I ask? Oh, I have a question. And I just always think this is like so fascinating because it's a little introspective, but like if you've achieved everything that you wanted, right? Like in an ideal world, what would your life look like in five years?
00:51:14
Speaker
So if you achieved everything you wanted today, Yeah, like, you know, like you have these goals, these dreams, right? And you are able to achieve kind of all the things you think you want, right? What would your life look like in five years? Like, talk about that. Okay.
00:51:28
Speaker
Yeah. roughly Lovely. Lovely. I want to hear people manifesting this stuff, right? Like, that's that's part of it. That's part of it. Manifesting your ideal reality.
00:51:39
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I like that one, Dr. G. I like that one a lot. Thanks. like the way you think. yeah thank you. Appreciate it. Well, you just mentioned that you have your little one making some noise in the back.
00:51:51
Speaker
has um We don't want to take too much time from you. On behalf of Dr. Ochoa and myself, we want to say thank you for coming to kick it with us in the lounge. Yeah, thank you guys for having me. This was awesome. Like, what a great conversation. I feel like you guys poured into me too. Like, this was great. Oh, really absolutely. And you know, that's exactly what the lounge is for. You know, we chill. It's informal. We get some stuff off our chest.
00:52:17
Speaker
And you know, keep yeah we we get back to work for real, for real. We get back to work. Yeah, no, this was so good. You guys are doing an incredible thing here, and I'm so glad I got to be part of it. Like, it's awesome, and it's nice to meet you both. um You know, let me know if y'all ever need anything, especially you, Jared. Seriously, reach out. Absolutely. what We'll do.
00:52:39
Speaker
um Thank you. So, oh, we'll definitely connect after this. Don't worry. Yeah. um But thank you so much for coming to kick it with us in the lounge. You're welcome back anytime, by the way.
00:52:51
Speaker
and you that You know where to find us. You know where to send an email. But until then, we'll see you all next time. Bye-bye. All right.