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Talking Ski Mountaineering with Nikki Larochelle and Mike Foote
1.4k Plays4 years ago
Coach Sam Naney is joined by Nikki LaRochelle and Mike Foote: Two successful mountain athletes both highly accomplished in the ski mountaineering, ultra running, and much more. They discuss the growth and development of the skimo racing in the US and Canada and how people can get involved with the skimo racing and ski mountaineering community in North America.
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Transcript
Introduction to Uphill Athlete Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. These programs are just one of several free services we provide to disseminate information about training for mountain sports. If you like what you hear and want more, please check out our website, uphillathlete.com, where you'll find many articles and our extensive video library on all aspects of training for and accomplishing a variety of mountain goals. You'll also find our forum where you can ask questions of our experts and the community at large.
00:00:30
Speaker
Our email is coach at uphillathlete.com and we'd love to hear from you.
00:00:36
Speaker
All right, welcome everybody to another edition of the Uphill Athlete podcast.
Meet the Guests: Nikki LaRochelle and Mike Foote
00:00:41
Speaker
I'm Sam Naney, a coach with Uphill Athlete, and I'm joined today by Nikki LaRochelle and Mike Foote. Both of these guys are really successful, accomplished mountain athletes in the ski mountaineering world and ultra running and much more. So this is gonna be an exciting conversation to have with both of them where we're gonna
00:01:04
Speaker
sort of wander around through the idea about schema racing in the States and how that community is growing. And then perhaps more broadly, how we can continue to encourage people to get involved in some of these sports that we're really excited about and see as a really positive impact on the mountain sports community.
Backgrounds in Mountain Sports
00:01:25
Speaker
So what I'd like to start with is just kind of get a background from each of you, which perhaps you might, I don't think either of you need much introduction to the people listening, but for the sake of completeness, we'll go there anyway. So maybe Nikki, let's start with you. Give a little background to your history with mountain sports and how you found yourself there. Yeah, thanks, Sam. Well, I feel like most athletes start by saying they grew up
00:01:55
Speaker
as the kid outside in the trees, but I was not that. I was the kid watching TV, like lots and lots of TV. And I mean, so much so I could tell you a lot of theme songs that are still near and dear to my heart, but it wasn't really until college I discovered endurance for. I played soccer in high school, but even struggled to do the like five mile try out run.
00:02:25
Speaker
Needless to say, it wasn't like a strong suit of mine, but I did a half marathon in college. And I think that process orientation of having never run that far and doing a training plan really opened my eyes to how fun and appealing and rewarding endurance sports can be. So that was a start. And then I moved to Breckenridge a bit after college, and that's where
00:02:54
Speaker
I'd say my eyes were really open to what people were doing endurance-wise. So I learned how to Nordic ski. I learned how to mountain bike and I started trail running and mountain running. And then I discovered Skimo through my husband who had been doing it. And then it just took off from there in essence. So that's my story, but I still like TV. Yeah. Well, you gotta have downtime at some point.
00:03:24
Speaker
Yes. All right, Mike, what about you, man? Um, I just need to clarify when Nikki says it took off from there. Um, just a quick follow-up, Nikki, what does that mean? Uh, have you had any successes in ski mountain erasing or, or, uh, endurance mountain running? Thanks, Mike. Well, no, I mean, I've had some, I've had some success. I've had some.
00:03:54
Speaker
major failure. I did meet Mike. Mike and I met at the World Championship in Italy and that was in, when was that? 2016, I believe? Yes. Yeah. So I did qualify for the US team twice and raced in Europe twice and was
00:04:20
Speaker
very, my eyes were very much open to what European athletes can do as I watched them from the back. But yeah, I've done some fun like ridge traverse sort of FKTs and I've only done 100 mile race, but I felt like that was a success for me. So in running, but that's, that's all Mike, what about you? You could tell us about you now.
00:04:46
Speaker
Okay, so I do want to put a pin there because I want to come back to this sort of through our conversation. But I think that, Nikki, what you were describing as your background is going to be really fun to sort of delve into as we go on about, you know, basically coming from a childhood maybe where you weren't immersed in these particular competitive sports.
00:05:08
Speaker
And then finding yourself in a community, both a geographic community and also just a community of people where those sports were the norm. And so thinking about what are the things that really made you feel included, welcome, maybe what were the challenges to getting involved with those sports and clearly not only getting involved, but finding really great success and kind of thriving in those competitive spheres as well as just being out in the mountains.
00:05:37
Speaker
something that we'll come back to there. But yeah, Mike, throw it at us. Yeah, yeah, I too come from a heavy TV watching background growing up in Northeastern Ohio. And though I did balance it well with building forts in the woods illegally in the neighbors woods. So that was probably my first foray into outdoor recreation. Definitely have a ball sports background.
00:06:06
Speaker
playing baseball through junior high, middle school, high school, as well as football. I was a very mediocre tight end for a very mediocre high school football team. But yeah, similar to Nikki. Well, for me, it was moving from Northeast Ohio out west and falling head over heels in love with mountains, with big, large, open landscapes.
00:06:36
Speaker
with mountain culture and just having, you know, just learning that moving through the mountains in all seasons was something that people did out in Montana where I ultimately landed. I live in Missoula, Montana now and yeah, it just became a part of my lifestyle. I jumped into trail running pretty early on when I was about 20 or 21 and found a lot of joy and love in it and
00:07:05
Speaker
quickly started to explore doing that with longer and longer distances all the way up to about a hundred mile to a hundred mile races and Yeah, I really fell in love with endurance and mountain endurance in the trail and ultra running space was
00:07:26
Speaker
joined the North Face athlete team as an ultra runner and have been competitively running for them for close to 10 years now. The biggest change in that last 10 years has been my additional head over heels falling in love with ski mountain racing in the last handful of years. I decided that
00:07:50
Speaker
I no longer wanted to try and run 100 mile weeks on trails and road through the winter in Missoula, Montana when I have also a background of just loving recreational skiing and ski touring. So I married those
Community and Inclusion in Schema Racing
00:08:07
Speaker
two things and about, yeah, five years ago I started dabbling in ski mountain racing and
00:08:13
Speaker
just really, really took to it quickly and loved the movement and the training and where it took me in the winter. Instead of staying in the valleys, I was back up in the peaks and the ridges where I wanted to be and, you know, fell into a very small but strong community of people doing the similar things. And that's where Nikki and I met a handful of years ago and
00:08:37
Speaker
Yeah, been enjoying it ever since. So those are, that's kind of my mountain endurance story in a nutshell.
00:08:47
Speaker
So I think, again, one of the things we want to kind of chat about today is this idea of the community, and again, a community of schema in the US, mountain running, endurance sports in particular, and how that can really foster this great sense, hopefully, of inclusion and get people more involved in these sports and
00:09:11
Speaker
And when we think about involvement in them, the positive effects are manifest. And they go from people's personal well-being mentally and physically to appreciative landscapes and wanting to preserve those landscapes and take care of our natural environments and all these great things. But to take it back from that, I think the commonality that you both share is that you came into these
00:09:40
Speaker
these sort of sport environments in the mountains. And it sounds like pretty quickly found yourselves competing. So participating in races, ski mountaineering, running, et cetera. And that's, you know, I think that's a really poignant thing to talk about because oftentimes, you know, we'll get athletes, people who will, you know,
00:10:02
Speaker
Check in with uphill athletes, send us emails and request information. And there's an interesting dynamic between a desire to improve health and fitness and sometimes an apprehension about participating in a race or going to a competition.
00:10:20
Speaker
I'm thinking, well, I'm not a competitor or I'm not going to perform at any great level. Why is that for me? And I want to initially ask you, Mike, because I've been fortunate enough for several years to be able to participate at the RUT.
00:10:37
Speaker
which are some trail races that you and Mike Wolf have put on for many years in Montana and I think that's kind of a good starting point in thinking about community in these sports and then we can we can steer it into schema as we like but
00:10:52
Speaker
you know, what you guys were able to sort of build at those at the rut mountain races is really a sense of community amidst a very challenging endeavor for people. So what was your, you know, what was the thinking in doing those? Was it racing first and then community or the other way around? And how did you go about your building that successful event in that way? Oh man. Yeah. So that's a, that's a, it's, it's hard to,
00:11:21
Speaker
nail it down to just one thing. I mean the yeah so you're talking about the rut mountain runs which is like three day trail running event big sky that we've been putting on for the last seven or eight years and has grown into yeah close to 3 000 people showing up on that weekend. Nikki's been there in her family. I've watched her daughter run the rut run 1k and yeah it's
00:11:50
Speaker
I think that the ultimate goal is that building of community, that idea of creating an experience for people to gather around and challenge one another and celebrate one another. I think it comes down to the product. I think that it's really important to have a race course that's inspiring, yet challenging. I think it's important to have good communication leading into the event. I think it's important to kind of develop a culture around the event
00:12:19
Speaker
you know, we take a lot of pride in making it silly at times and having these like funny rewards and not taking ourselves too seriously, but at the same time trying to make the event extremely well organized because that's very important, that quality aspect. And then I think people are just drawn to that. It draws a certain type of person that's excited to maybe get outside of their comfort zone a bit and yet
00:12:50
Speaker
while these sports are so individual in that you might set an individual go to set a PR or get a certain time in the course.
00:13:00
Speaker
because it's so hard. We all have this respect for one another and this understanding of the challenge that is mountain sports in general, not just running, but ski mountaineering, racing, and all these other sports because you can really, there's a lot of pain and discomfort in this, yet at the same time, it brings people closer together because they can celebrate that success when you cross that finish line.
00:13:29
Speaker
I'm very biased. I co-own an events company and it's my job to create experiences for people. But I will say events are such a key part to building community. Otherwise, it's just disparate individuals doing their own thing.
00:13:48
Speaker
and never congregating physically in one place, which is, I know we'll speak to this later, been one of the challenges of 2020 in light of a global pandemic. So there's challenges with that as well. And it shows that it's maintaining community through different channels is worth doing yet. It's hard to replace the real thing at times. Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:11
Speaker
Nicky, have you felt the same thing? So I know in Breckenridge and sort of that area of Colorado more broadly, you know, the Cosmic Schemo series as a similar sort of race format or race series
00:14:28
Speaker
and drawing this wide swath of people to the sport and building it, you know, and you kind of coming into that into the scene of mountain sports and then and then into schema in particular going from, you know, recreation into competition. Did you did you get that same vibe and you feel like that's been a really successful model for for drawing in new people and sort of building those sports as well? Yeah, that's a good question. I I was lucky
00:14:56
Speaker
I, like I mentioned earlier, I was introduced to Skimo through my husband who at the time of when I was first introduced to it, we were dating, but I had the luxury of having this comrade or this partner bring me along into the sport. So one of my first races was the Power Four, which is a team's race that I did with him. So that gave me this level of accessibility and I felt a level of comfort that I don't know
00:15:26
Speaker
that you can achieve on your own. I mean, Schemo is such a daunting, intimidating sport, I think, from the outside. I mean, the gear is daunting. There's a lot of spandex. There's a lot of very serious-looking people. So I worry about that becoming this major barrier for the sport, because I think all of us who are in the sport would love to see more people.
00:15:55
Speaker
So, but back to your question, I think having just gotten a few races under my belt in that team context certainly helped, you know, me feel more and more comfortable in the race environment. And then the sports small enough, you start seeing the same people at races and you start building friendship and fostering relationship. And so, um, that certainly helps, but my fear around
00:16:20
Speaker
barrier to access is just that initial step, that initial first race to get into it. And then I believe if people have a positive experience, they would get hooked right away. But that is a major challenge, that initial step. And what do you, having thought about it, what do you think are some of the ways in which that, you know, those steps can be built a little more manageably. So I know,
00:16:46
Speaker
You know, there are the sort of big tier, high tier American races like Power Four and Grand Traverse and Five Peaks and Shedhorn and these larger, more technical, more challenging races. Taking steps down from that, like what are some great entry-level opportunities that either exist now or that you can think of would be great to exist as a way to bring people into Schemo in particular?
00:17:14
Speaker
Yeah, there are a lot of municipalities and organizations that host smaller local race series. We have one here in Breckenridge that's through the town of Breckenridge. And those races are generally around an hour. We actually, my husband and I help with those races because we're trying to figure out sort of the magic behind how we get more people involved. Although quite honestly,
00:17:43
Speaker
When we think we've figured it out, it's like the numbers don't seem to reflect the solution that we've come up with. So I think this is a moving target. I can't quite understand. Like for a bit of time, we heard people wanted more challenging courses. So we took these otherwise benign and straightforward courses and made them more difficult, more dynamic.
00:18:06
Speaker
But what happened is I think we've then alienated our beginner, maybe our more apprehensive racer. So I really do think the key is probably these local races going back to making very accessible, manageable races for people to sort of dip their big toe into.
Fostering Community through Ski Areas and Events
00:18:27
Speaker
I know, I know there's like a loss at citizen series that I've heard is really,
00:18:33
Speaker
really quite successful. I'd say ours is generally successful. I'd be curious Mike, if you guys, I believe you do help organize one where you are.
00:18:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, we put, I guess I put on a, like it's a five week weeknight series called Rond and A Radness and it's like every Thursday night under the lights and it's cycle cross style format where it's the short 15 minute loops and we've had incredible success. I mean, I always feel like the Missoula
00:19:08
Speaker
endurance community punches well above its weight because I don't necessarily think of Missoula as a ski town but we had 110 folks on our last day there.
00:19:17
Speaker
You know and or the last the last day of this last season, you know of five nights and people people come out for it and our split board division is as big as our race, you know skinny ski division and our heavy metal division is definitely our largest and it's about 40% female which is huge for in the sport of skimo and
00:19:41
Speaker
I mean, I'd love to get it to 50-50, and I think we're moving that direction, but it's been really good. And to your point, we have stayed pretty committed to just keeping the course itself not incredibly
00:19:57
Speaker
technically challenging. But we do we do shift it up every week just to have some extra flair. And, you know, this year, we'll see but historically, you know, you finish and you go into the the ski area bar and we have an award ceremony and people eat pizza. And there's this communal kind of gathering afterwards to celebrate like the hard effort. And I found it to be
00:20:21
Speaker
So so much fun because yeah, it is really I think having dove headfirst into a couple sports in 10 or 15 years I found ski mountaineering to be a lot more scary. I was one of those people who thought it was just for
00:20:37
Speaker
incredibly serious elite athletes because I sure didn't own a single-piece spandex suit up until a few years ago and you know that's intimidating but I think you know we need to remove that stigma if we're going to continue to grow the sport and
00:20:57
Speaker
You know, I do want to take a second to take one step back talking about these these kind of gateways into ski mountaineering and I would say it's not even really events as much as it's
00:21:12
Speaker
The one thing that will or will not create an uphill skiing community in your town is if your ski area has an uphill skiing policy. Yes, people go ski touring and things like that, but
00:21:28
Speaker
If you want to have just easy access to get up a hill and go for the fitness and get used to the gear in a safe environment without needing a ton of extra knowledge. I found that, you know, if I could, if people hear this podcast and think, how can I build community in my area? I'd say the biggest thing is make sure that your ski area has a really generous uphill skiing policy. Otherwise it's not going to be, you're not going to
00:21:59
Speaker
really get anywhere with it. So we're always working towards that here in Missoula. And I know that in Summit County, Nikki, you just have a ton of great options, probably within a half hour drive for you. And I think that probably really helps. Yeah. No, I think that makes a lot of sense because you get it
00:22:21
Speaker
It's another place where people are going to gather and find themselves doing the same thing in the same fashion. It seems like oftentimes when you have that,
00:22:31
Speaker
It doesn't variably lead to some sort of coordination and, you know, organization where you might have, you know, either it's a race or it's just an event where everybody's getting together. It's a weeknight thing that you gather for. But I think something, Nikki, you touched on a little bit earlier was resonated with me and the idea of
00:22:52
Speaker
you know putting together these uh like a weeknight series or a periodic uh low-key event it's it's hard to strike the balance between the people that are experienced and are are used to doing the sport and they're sort of ready for a big challenge and also the folks who want to come in and try it for the first time and be involved but you know maybe
00:23:16
Speaker
don't have the right gear, don't have the experience in it. And I think the onus is on the experienced group to really see that in order to grow the sport, and I've seen this in the Nordic skiing community for a long, long time. And I think in these others as well, you want a lot of people involved in your sport. It makes it more enjoyable. It provides longevity for the sport, both in terms
00:23:46
Speaker
you know, financially so that you can, you know, fund better opportunities, but also just, you know, the same reasons we enjoy it. We want to provide that for other people. So I think, yeah.
00:23:59
Speaker
I think the format of having low key events where you really focus on what is the beginner looking for? What is the way that we can get them involved? And I'm curious what your guys' thoughts are on even taking that a step further and saying things like,
00:24:19
Speaker
gear, you know, clinics to introduce people to the gear or, you know, talking about, you know, the functionality of the gear, how do you, how do you complete transitions, things like that? Like, does that, are you seeing that sort of, uh, that sort of development in your areas where there's actually, you know, clinics and tutorials and opportunities for people to learn outside of showing up and putting a bib on? Nikki, yeah, either open, open question. Nikki, why don't you go first?
00:24:48
Speaker
You know, yes, we have done clinics and we've done say women's specific clinics. We've done some totally beginner, never done it at all clinics where we teamed up with, say we've got a local mountain shop here, Mountain Outfitters, who's been really supportive of this chemo community and they offered discounted rates on rental gear, which was great. So we collaborated with them and I
00:25:19
Speaker
I mean, I, I thought those were actually got to host one and the women were so excited. And what was really cool is the, the age range was pretty broad. So we had some, some younger high school girls. And then we had someone, I think up in their sixties come, which was great. So I do think that helps take the stigma, like Mike was saying, removing the stigma of
00:25:46
Speaker
Um, and just the basic fear or lack of understanding the gear is a bit obscure, like skins and transitions and how to do it quickly. And, um, it's not like a, you know, it's not like a Turkey drop. It's more involved than just putting a pair of running shoes on. So, um, I do think there is benefit in clinics like that. I think that's a good point, Sam.
00:26:13
Speaker
Yeah, Mike, on your end, have you seen that sort of, clearly the rando races you guys are putting on on the weeknights is growing by leaps and bounds. And have you seen that sort of yearning for more organization on a regular basis or are people wanting to sort of develop more structure outside of those races to provide more opportunity to learn about the sport?
00:26:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I've definitely had people reach out to me about that and I do think that there's opportunities and I've always been of the mindset of not trying to just try to offer a little bit more every year and because I don't want it to be too much too soon, I guess. We did talk about doing clinics this year just to help folks learn the skills. I mean, one of the
00:27:03
Speaker
One of the fun things about this sport of ski mountaineering is that all of the skills you learn to race ultimately make you a more efficient backcountry skier, and that's really fun. And ultimately, a lot of the folks that show up to our events, I would say 85 to 90%
00:27:22
Speaker
aren't interested in standing on the podium of a high-end ski mountaineering race yet they're really interested in becoming more fit and spending time with their friends and learning how to do transitions faster all these things so yeah well the the high-end gear can be a bit of a like carbon boots and things of that nature can be a bit of a
00:27:44
Speaker
deterrent to the entrance into the sport. I think it's just always so important to just have that open door policy of if you have any sort of gear that works for you, bring it so that you can learn how to get faster at all these things so that the next time you head into the backcountry
00:28:01
Speaker
you're more likely to potentially ski or ride more vert, you know, get to an objective further away from the trailhead or, you know, ski within yourself and be more safe and less injury prone. I mean, there's all these great things that come from it. So that's why we would love to do, you know, some clinics this year. We'll see how, we'll see what comes of that being 2020, but that's definitely, definitely the hope of it all.
00:28:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. What's, I mean, I think that's going to be, you know, we've kind of touched on it or alluded to it earlier as everything that's transpiring or not transpiring as it were this year because of COVID-19 and the sort of uncertainty about resorts opening and how much capacity, how great the capacity is. They'll be able to support, you know, I think from a, to that point, Mike, you know, this idea that that schema can
00:28:57
Speaker
also support somebody learning more and being more of an effective back country traveler. What are you guys seeing or hearing in your respective communities and then in the larger schema community about the possibility of
Schema Racing during the Pandemic
00:29:13
Speaker
being able to have races and also the possibility that there might be an even greater influx of people to the sport when, you know,
00:29:24
Speaker
Or the other way around, you know, whether, you know, the backcountry is going to get swamped with more people because resorts aren't open or there's going to be more limitations at resorts and therefore more pressure on races to remain small or differently structured. Are you hearing anything in that regard? Nikki, maybe in the cosmic series or Mike, up in your region? Yes, I think
00:29:52
Speaker
There's still a lot of unknowns, obviously, with COVID and managing events and event sizes. We did, USSMA did have a race meeting recently where we met with Joe Rizzi of COSMIC. He's the director of the COSMIC series and a few other sort of stakeholders. And it sounds like maybe within the smaller resorts, it will be possible
00:30:21
Speaker
potentially put races on. And then for us with Breckenridge Ski Area and a basin and our local mountains, we're still waiting to hear how they're going to handle downhill skiing, but also events. And I don't think Skimo is hugely on their radar. It's not like their top priority, but I'm sure those answers will trickle down in time.
00:30:48
Speaker
But USSMA, our US Key Boundary Association, is working to develop guidelines around COVID and racing safely and how they manage starts and finishes and transition zones. So it's certainly on the radar. I'm not sure how is it over in Montana.
00:31:12
Speaker
Yeah, there hasn't been a lot of conversation yet, to be honest. I think, you know, I only organized these weekly race series and our local ski area. They haven't come up with a public plan yet. So I'm in a bit of a wait and see of what we're going to be able to accomplish this year, just at a local level here in Missoula. And then we have a handful of races regionally that, you know, to be honest, I haven't heard what
00:31:42
Speaker
what's gonna happen yet. I mean, a few of the ski areas are still solidifying their COVID guidelines for this year. And yeah, it's gonna be tricky.
00:31:53
Speaker
I do hope that some smaller events can happen, because I believe in the major benefit of bringing people together. But obviously, it just has to be done safely. And that's the tricky thing. And we'll see what appetite there is. I mean, I will say if I were to make a prediction for just the participation of people doing uphill travel this year, either on a ski area or event or not event, I think it's going to be massive. I think there's going to be
00:32:23
Speaker
Just like there was a Run on bikes in April. I think there's gonna be a run on skimo gear and in like, you know with the first snow which is happening here right now and I just I I personally would bet that
00:32:39
Speaker
there will be a large demand because people can go out, they can exercise safely, they might not feel comfortable in it going to a gym to get on their spin bike, you know, and instead now they're hiking up the local ski hill. And I think it's, yeah.
00:32:57
Speaker
I hope that there's good opportunities for people just for uphill travel but also through events and resources to learn through say USS MA and things like that because the demand I just fully believe will be there this year.
00:33:13
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think you're right. I mean, it seems like from the retail side of things, what you hear is that there's boots and skis, everything are flying off the shelves. And again, I think the numbers of people who are going to want to be going into the back country, those are huge.
00:33:31
Speaker
We're seeing it here locally talking to guiding friends. They're booking up with heli trips and guided opportunities. People want to be out there. I know we've got a little regional schema series here in the Pacific Northwest that has been slowly growing the last couple of years.
00:33:52
Speaker
my wife Allison and I put on a little race, which is very much the like, come as you are sort of format of, you know, split boards and 110 underfoot powder skis and every, you know, every, and then, you know, a handful of people at the, at the front end and on race gear and sort of, you know, very, very low key, nothing technical about it. Uh, you know, and I think again, it's, it's,
00:34:15
Speaker
It's the opportunity to, particularly this year, especially this year, to just find that community space and be involved with people who want to be participating in the same thing amidst all of this difficulty that we're facing and uncertainty. So yeah, I'm optimistic. I think we're getting some good feedback in our region about the possibility of being able to hold some smaller events and hopefully
00:34:46
Speaker
in your guys's zones as well, because I think having those places is not only a way to help build the sport, but it's also a chance for people to, again, especially the newcomers, to learn about the gear and the movement and the travel in a way that is a little bit safer and more managed than just kind of throwing everybody out into the back country and seeing what happens.
Training and Fitness for Schema Racing
00:35:12
Speaker
Yeah, so I kind of like to transition a little bit sort of thinking this in the same regard about, you know, getting people getting involved and and what it means and, you know, and sort of lower and intimidation factors and move from events and thinking more generally about just
00:35:28
Speaker
the sport and training for it so you know obviously uphill athlete we we cater a lot to people thinking about how they want to get fitter and train and improve their fitness so uh i'd love to hear your guys's thoughts on sort of what are the as you each you know respectively got into the sport of ski mountaineering in particular you know what were what were some of the ways that you found that you could sort of build the fitness to to cater to that sport in a way that was different from your
00:35:56
Speaker
the previous things you were doing, mountain running, baseball, mountain biking, whatever it might be. You go Mike. We'll let Mike go first. Oh boy. I wanted to hear all of Mike. I wanted to hear all of Mickey's secrets. Yeah, I guess I'm going to try and distill this down.
00:36:26
Speaker
For me, initially getting into or backcountry skiing and ski mode racing for me was initially, you know, a cross training exercise for mountain running in the winter. In the winter for my mountain running goals in the summer and ultimately I realized just it's
00:36:45
Speaker
It's incredibly good at building aerobic endurance, just the ability to put so many hours in, because I'm used to this high impact sport of running and just really enjoyed the smoothness of skiing up and skiing down. And my body really appreciated the break in the winter after trying to run through the winter for years and years. So initially I came at it from that end, but
00:37:15
Speaker
Yeah. So I guess just to clarify, Sam, you're, you're asking what are some ways that I found have helped me to get, you know, physically fit and prepared for ski, not near racing or. Yeah. Well, and again, I kind of thinking about it from, from the angle of, you know, people wanting to, to get involved in the sport and, and, you know, show up to the line of a, of a Thursday night race that, that you're offering and like, what,
00:37:42
Speaker
you know, what are some ways that somebody can maybe be thinking about right now to get themselves prepared to be on their skis? And it may be even more particularly be, you know, pushing themselves on their skis in a race environment that could be helpful for them to get started coming out of, say, running season.
00:38:00
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think heading into ski mountaineering season, ski, ski, mo racing is a pretty high intensity sport. I mean, you have this ability to kind of pin your heart rate on these uphills and then just acutely really stress your, your chassis, your muscles and your body on the descent.
00:38:20
Speaker
I've worn heart rate monitors in races where my heart rate drops about four beats per minute from 180 to 176 on the descent. So it's just a really taxing
00:38:36
Speaker
yet fun and exhilarating you know going through those courses but you know this time of year is just a great time to just add in a lot of easy longer efforts you want to get your body used you you know you want to build that endurance in your in your body and you know as you get deeper into the race season is when you're going to want to sharpen up and
00:38:59
Speaker
and start adding some harder, higher intensity intervals. One of the benefits of schema racing is that you can do it pretty darn often and bounce back and recover, so it's not uncommon for people to race multiple times in a week or every other week.
00:39:17
Speaker
you can build that intensity throughout a race season but if you don't build a good strong foundation leading into it you just won't get those you won't reach that kind of higher end fitness that you're really seeking and those races will beat you up a little bit more and your recovery from those races will be potentially a little bit less so this time of year is just a great time to get out for those long easy days and
00:39:42
Speaker
I love that about fall. I've really enjoyed that over the years just getting out in the hills and not having any sort of major goal for the day other than a good amount of time on my feet and staying healthy and staying at a point where I can be really motivated for when the snow falls.
00:40:00
Speaker
The cool part at the other end of that is I coming from running where just the amount of gear you need is a little bit less. I really enjoyed the gear management aspect of racing. I think people who can get really good at their transitions or know how to handle all their poles and transitions and
00:40:24
Speaker
make sure you have the right, you know, where you put your things in your backpack and all these things. It's all really, really fun just practicing certain skills that you can be just a little bit more efficient on race day. And I can totally geek out on that aspect of the sport. I know that's not why some people get into it, but
00:40:42
Speaker
There's some really just acute skills you can learn that can make you a much better racer and therefore backcountry skier as well through training. So there's this like kind of aerobic endurance building aspect, but then there's also just these very specific skills that are needed for the race that are fun to practice as well.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah, no, and I think that idea too of, you know, I was talking with Luke Nelson and Scott Semple a week or two ago about some of this stuff and one of them may have been, Luke made the point that
00:41:16
Speaker
You know, Schemo is a great way to just make everything about your broader backcountry skiing repertoire more efficient. You know, so after you've spent a couple of Schemo races or spent a season getting involved in that scene, you're going to be, you know, the bane of all of your backcountry ski partners because you're going to be transitioning minutes faster than them. And you're going to have your, just out of habit, you're going to create
00:41:42
Speaker
these systems of movement and transition in the back country that will far surpass those that maybe didn't put that same intention in that comes with doing the schema racing which i think again if we sort of look at it as a as an opportunity to
00:41:58
Speaker
sharpen a broader skill set, that's that's a great thing too, because you're moving with a, you're moving with more intention, you know, and sort of thinking about thinking about the patterns that you want to develop both in a in a schema race context, but then again, also moving in the backcountry and being more observant and being more cognizant of everything around you and your gear and etc. Yeah.
00:42:21
Speaker
Nikki, what about you? So getting into the sport, like was that, was the gear and the sort of specifics and the logistics of that, was that and has that been a really big, big draw and part of it that you enjoy or did it more come from the physical exertion side of it? Yes, that's a great question. Like Mike said, gear management is such a huge part of ski mountaineering and I feel like
00:42:50
Speaker
Anything I've learned about that has come from negative experience or poor experience during a race where I just mismanaged something or underestimated something. But, um, like there's a lot of variables, temperatures, no conditions, the length of the race. Um, when you're thinking of skins and layering and there's just a lot to it. I mean, sometimes you get to the start and it's, I, I recall
00:43:19
Speaker
Um, one of our qualifying races for worlds back in 2016, we raced in Greenwich, Idaho, and it was negative 23 degrees. No kidding. Um, at the start, and it's like, okay, how do I layer for that? And my skins, for those of you, those listeners that don't know skins when it's really, really cold, don't stick very well to your skis. So if you get.
00:43:44
Speaker
any dusting of snow on your skins, like they'll fail you, which is one of the worst parts of a schema is when you look down and see your skin falling off. Um, I feel like I have nightmares about the, those scenarios, but, um, so you learn like I lost many skins during that race, but from that experience, I learned better how to manage my skins, how to keep them warm, that it's worth the extra 15 seconds to make sure
00:44:11
Speaker
I don't get snow on them, et cetera. So you learn all these little lessons along the way. But it's part of what makes the sport fun. And I think I went from somebody who didn't want to deal with that sort of stuff to someone more like what Mike was saying. I actually love to optimize. I think of myself as maybe I'm not the fastest, but if I can optimize in all these small ways, like transitions, gear management, how can I shave seconds off
00:44:41
Speaker
here and there through being thoughtful, diligent, taking good care of my gear, et cetera, that then results in good outcomes for those of us who maybe don't have as strong of an engine as other people racing. So now I've come to love, love gear, love, I love how to figure, how to just determine which skins to use. All that is so fun to me.
00:45:10
Speaker
Uh, just like what Mike was saying, but, um, in terms of like broader things with training, I think not underestimating the downhill. Like I agree with Mike. I think the most pain I've ever been in schema racing is skiing downhill. Um, I have done a few races with a friend, Jesse Young, who is better than me in all ways with schema racing. And I remember my first race with her.
00:45:39
Speaker
I was kind of hoping she wouldn't be as good at the downhill so I could get a little break in there, but then she just took off and I was like, oh damn, she's so fast. So then I had to keep up with her and my quads hurt so bad. So it's like, okay, next time maybe I should think through how do I get my legs stronger? So I started to do more weightlifting. I incorporated more Nordic seeing, et cetera. So I think as,
00:46:08
Speaker
Like the more you partake in the sport, you start to realize there's just so many lessons to be learned and we're all still learning. I mean, there's so much opportunity to get better.
Learning and Growth in Schema Racing
00:46:19
Speaker
Um, and that's what makes the sport so cool. It's so dynamic. There's so much going on. And so, yeah, that, yeah, I think something that I know for myself and I would imagine for you too as well, like that would,
00:46:35
Speaker
the thing which draws us to these sport, you know, schema in particular, but also mountain running and ultra running, particularly in the U S is that they're, they're really grassroots still, you know, I mean, in, in the last, I, I, I'm sure that, you know, if, if someone had been, you know, has been participating in particularly something like ultra running for the last 20 years, they could see a market shift in, in terms of the, the growth of the sport and opportunities they're in. But I think the, uh,
00:47:02
Speaker
The benefit that comes from being involved in a sport as it's really in that growing phase is that there's just information bouncing around all the time and opportunity to grab onto it and learn. It's not all codified in the way it might be in a decades old sport that is organized and regimented and you learn in these structured ways.
00:47:27
Speaker
Yeah, Nicky, your experience with the Brundage race and figuring out how skins do and don't work. I remember the first Schemo race I did, I basically had just taken the skins out of the box and put them on the ski and sort of run some scissors across the backside, the tails of them. They're like, all right, that's good. And then in this first race, I think I don't know how many failures I had. I mean, my skins were just flapping around like some streamers on a kid's bicycle.
00:47:57
Speaker
And I got back and I was talking with Scott and said, I don't know what's going on. I never had this problem in the backcountry. And he's like, you should talk to Mike. And I remember Mike, I think that was the first time you and I had ever talked and I called you and said, you don't know me, but where are you? We both know Scott and I need some help. And I think you threw a few ideas at me, the one obvious one
00:48:22
Speaker
And so obvious now is like, well, you should round your tails. That might help. And just some basic strategies that once you start using them, you realize how, maybe not intuitive, but how obvious they are to success. And I think that's a really neat part about this sport is that by and large, people
00:48:48
Speaker
want others to get involved and and that those sort of tips and tricks and advantages that you can gain you know it's an it's an everyone's best interest to learn those and so that you find you know the banter happening around the the you know for thinking about the the events you know the uh the
00:49:06
Speaker
before the start, you know, hear people talking about how are you going to, you know, where are you going to carry your skins? How are you going to be, you know, particularly sort of the entry level and more beginner area? You know, how are you using your pack? How are you operating your transitions and the techniques for how to operate and erase? I remember in this conversation I had with Luke and Semple, Luke had this really great term, and I think I'll get it right, of basically being a continual motion machine.
00:49:35
Speaker
And I thought that was just brilliant because if you think about your movement, and it works for other sports as well, but particularly for schema, if you think about your movement through the event as being one where you're constantly following these patterns and moving and like,
00:49:55
Speaker
like you said, Nikki, improving your ability on the descents by practicing just skiing a descent completely without stopping in your training. And those sorts of methods that you can glean from others who have been in the sport for a while can be so critical to sort of welcoming new people into the community and figuring out ways that we can disseminate that even better. It seems like it'll only benefit more. Yeah.
00:50:24
Speaker
I was just going to add that I have finding resources, finding people who have been in the sport longer, asking them those questions. I've only experienced those people being very eager and very willing to share, share tips. I mean, um, there's a few people in our sport who are pretty notorious for being so meticulous to a level that's almost mind blowing, like John Gaston, Max Tam. These are guys that have spent.
00:50:52
Speaker
hours refining process. And they will, I mean, I've watched Max, for example, he's just one of the most meticulous people I've ever met, observing him before a race, the level at which he is taking care of his gear, thinking through the process, he'll look at the course map, he'll figure out where he's going to eat his food. He brings, you know, he'll wax his skins a certain way, etc. And it opened my mind to like, wow, there's so much more opportunity than I even realized.
00:51:22
Speaker
to make this better and better. And I love Max too, because I remember asking him, do you ever make mistakes anymore? And he said, no, not really, because I've been doing this for long enough. I have no excuse. I've made every mistake there is to be made. But what's so great about him is his willingness and energy put forth to not make the same mistakes again. But I go to these guys,
00:51:53
Speaker
like Mike, any number of people who are meticulous in this way. And I love asking them how they, you know, what do you do when it is negative 20 or how many pairs of skins do you bring in an eight hour race? You know, and it's, everyone's eager to have those conversations. Yeah.
00:52:10
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I just think that one of the biggest compliments you can give somebody in the sport of of schema is calling them a technician. And that's exactly what Max is a great example of Nikki. He's a total technician in the sport. And I think there's like these parallel paths of becoming a better
00:52:30
Speaker
you know, aerobic, skier, but then also a better technician and all these different skill sets is what's going to help you, you know, get your best performance and get closer to your potential on these margins, you know, bit by bit, shaving seconds off. And I think that's, that's such a great way to put it. And I think it's important to say like,
00:52:48
Speaker
it's not about having the you know what we're talking about right now isn't like buy this most expensive boot or this lightest ski we're talking about how you can be how anybody can improve where they're at by becoming more efficient in these ways because that is the trickiest part about the sport is sometimes like too much of a focus on just like what gear versus like how to best use it and I think what we've been talking about these last few minutes is
00:53:18
Speaker
you know, how to, whatever gear you have, you can become so much more efficient, so much more fast on, on it if you, you know, really hone in on developing new skills. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's, that's a, that those are, those are really good points. And again, tying it back to our, you know, this, this whole idea of,
00:53:38
Speaker
Why, why should you this, you know, the, the perspective, why should you try, try schema? And so I think that, that might be a good way to for us to think about closing this conversation out. I want you each to think about for a moment as I ramble on and then give me your own perspective on, you know, why, what, give your elevator pitch maybe to the,
00:54:01
Speaker
to the schema curious, the person who's, they've got a back country set up or they enjoy touring the mountains and they've heard about this sport. And again, maybe there's gonna be opportunity this winter to jump into a weeknight race or something. What would be your sell to that person to come and join this community and give it a try? Mike, we'll start with you first if you've got it on the ready.
00:54:31
Speaker
Always. I'm ready. I think sliding around on snow outdoors and connecting with other people safely is a huge boon for your
Inclusivity and Community Building in Schema Racing
00:54:46
Speaker
mental health and your physical health. And I think if that was the only thing that you gain from it, that's all you need to gain from it. Additionally, as we've said before,
00:54:59
Speaker
by jumping in an event or trying to learn some of these new skills, that all trickles down into
00:55:08
Speaker
your mountain running in the summer just because of the aerobic benefits you get from skiing, it trickles down into your backcountry skiing because you have learned to become so much more efficient with your gear and therefore you're able to achieve bigger goals in the backcountry. So I think those are two major wins that you can get from it. Awesome. Nicky?
00:55:36
Speaker
Yeah, mental health is very important. I think of schema as a great way to get to these places we love in the winter. So I look up at the mountains right now and I love just sort of daydreaming about when I'm up there and they are less accessible feeling in the winter, but schema is a great way to open up the opportunity to be out in these special places we all love.
00:56:06
Speaker
whether it's racing or just backcountry touring. I think with racing I really think that I worry, I mean this is a broader conversation so I'll try to keep this concise, but I worry the direction of social media and just individualism. The way that's progressing in our culture it's
00:56:30
Speaker
It's making the ego, I think, a bit more fragile in general. I find people are more insecure, more reluctant because they're comparing themselves with what they see in social media. And so I fear this actually is becoming an encumbrance for things like, I'm going to put myself out there and dive into a new sport I've never done before. So I try to urge people. For me, I really want to try to do a cycle cross race someday. And I ask myself, what's
00:57:00
Speaker
What's preventing me from doing that? And it's totally my ego. It's like, well, maybe I'll be terrible, or maybe I won't know how to do that certain thing. Like, I don't know how to ride a bike in the mud, et cetera, et cetera. And it's so easy to come up with all the reasons why not. But the reality is, is the community has their arms open to these people. Like, I assume the cycle cross community would love to see a novice like me just dive right in. And that's how we all feel about
00:57:29
Speaker
novices or beginners coming into our sport. We would love to see more people. We'd love to see more youth. We'd love to see some older people. Any ability, any ambition is welcome. And I think the Grand Traverse is a really special race. It's my favorite in the US. It's not so much a ski mountaineering race proper, but watching people finish that race is the most heartwarming thing possible.
00:58:00
Speaker
daughters and fathers or brothers and sisters or married couples, like the sense of accomplishment they have at the end and observing that is just the greatest. And that's why we all love sport. Like eating a piece of chocolate cake is great in the immediacy, but running a marathon or finishing a schema race, that has long lasting feelings of accomplishment. So I just urge people to set the ego aside and
00:58:29
Speaker
and come do a race. Yeah, man, I think there's a lot in there that I think is really important, Nicky.
00:58:40
Speaker
As you said, it offers an opportunity to talk more broadly, which we can definitely do because I think it's really important both in terms of the sport community and also just again, you know, just these ever concentric circles of community. I know, you know, all three of us live in beautiful mountain towns and I think one of the things that has
00:59:03
Speaker
really come to light in this year in particular is the desirability to live in these places and to have the amenities and the opportunities that exist in these environments as opposed to say an urban place and
00:59:21
Speaker
I'm sure you guys have seen similar discussions happening in your areas as we have in ours of how to, what to make of influx of people and newcomers and something that I've thought a lot about and Alice and I have talked about a lot and I think is really important is the very same thing that you're talking about with with schema or any other sport is that we want people to be a part of our community and we want the community is
00:59:48
Speaker
of the utmost importance for us as individuals. And so whether it's people who want to come and live in the Metha Valley or in Breckenridge or Missoula, or people who want to participate in schema for the first time, I think the best thing we can do
01:00:06
Speaker
is to be welcoming of that and welcome them in the sense of here's what we can offer in this community. Here's ways in which we'd love for you to get involved and participate. Yeah, what are your thoughts on that, Mike? I think it's a really important topic right now, especially again with the sport, but also with sort of people as a whole and these communities that we live in.
01:00:36
Speaker
Oh, mic's on mute. You cut out there a second on my end. Sorry, the last sentence or two kind of faded away. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, just kind of getting your, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, similar to what Nicky was talking about with regard to how, as growth is happening, not only in hopefully in our sports and also in our communities,
01:01:07
Speaker
what we can be doing as individuals to sort of guide that growth if possible, but be how do we address it and the ways in which we can be welcoming, the ways in which we can help build the communities and for what will continue to be the future and expand.
01:01:28
Speaker
Oh, so you want to talk for another two hours is what you're saying? That's such a large question. Gosh, I mean, I think that we want to create as much infrastructure and resources available for people. Gosh, I mean, here in Missoula, we have a lot of people moving here and a big
01:01:53
Speaker
uh thing is making sure that we continue to prioritize having open spaces and at the same time deal with afford like make sure that we can keep housing affordable and we have all these disparate goals that we're trying to achieve and
01:02:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's such a big, it's such a big thing. I think, you know, using language that's really accepting and open to all types of people, I think, telling the stories of people doing the sport and not just like the sharp end of the sport, you know, sharing the stories and celebrating people in the front, in the back, no matter their, you know, how fast they are, where they come from, I think,
01:02:35
Speaker
it's so important to just have that inclusive language and be really curious and make like it's simple but just have information available to people have a good website that shares you know what events you have going on how to get into them like you know and
01:02:56
Speaker
like create mentorship programs. I mean there's so many different tools and and it's all a big heavy lift but it's so important if you do want to grow a community in the right direction no matter if it's just your your local physical community or ski mountaineering sport or whatever and so I think we're all talking about it a lot right now and it's it's really exciting because
01:03:19
Speaker
I love the idea of community, but I also think that I want that to be a more broad and more broad concept moving forward. And so it takes work, but it's also really purposeful and meaningful and exciting. Yeah, absolutely. Nikki, any last thoughts on that? That is a big question. I really do think maybe it's because I'm looking at Mike, but I really do think of the rut, the race that Mike
01:03:48
Speaker
is the race director of because he has truly, they have created an ethos and a sense of like a true culture to that race where it's the most family oriented race I've ever been to, which I love. I've got a five-year-old and it is so important, these nuances, these little details of what makes people feel included. How do we increase inclusivity?
01:04:15
Speaker
So I know that's more from the race director standpoint, but maybe that puts the onus on us as individuals is like, how do we become more inclusive? What are, what are small nuance things we can do with our friends and acquaintances to get them involved? So maybe for me as someone that's, you know, we're out training, I should be thinking of friends I could invite to come ski with me or go up the scary in the morning. Um,
01:04:42
Speaker
But it's all about, in my mind, just little efforts, small, nuanced details that really add up and make all the difference. So I know, I don't know if that quite answered your question, but community is, it's hard to achieve that. And I think truly though, if we focus on the fact that everyone wants to be invited,
01:05:10
Speaker
you cannot overstate inclusivity. It's just like needs to be in abundance for all of us. So I do think that's really important.
01:05:20
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think that's hitting the nail on the head is that what you guys described as your experience in getting into these sports, and I certainly have felt the same way from my own standpoint, that sense of being included and being able to pick the brain of the veteran competitor on how to trim your skins or how to prepare for that event.
01:05:45
Speaker
how to transition your boots into downhill, whatever it might be, those things that we look for and really value in the sport community, we can extrapolate and we can expand upon when we think about our communities as a whole. I think it's, again, like other things we've talked about in this conversation, in the current times we're living in and COVID and uncertainty, I think it's,
01:06:12
Speaker
Ever ever present and ever important to consider them and be welcoming and inclusive at all at all points. So That's great. Thank you guys so much. I appreciate you taking the time and allowing for the the rambling conversation thither and yawn as we as we wander but yeah, best of luck in the in the coming winter and hope hope you're able to get into some races and we have some opportunities to to get out and adventure in the mountains and these different events together and
01:06:42
Speaker
Awesome. Thanks, Sam. Wait, what about you? Can you wrap up with your schema experience? Are we going to see you out there this season? Yeah, I hope so. I'm actually in the process of trying to figure out our permit for our little race here.
01:06:59
Speaker
you know, hopefully some regional events. I mean, again, our series is growing here in the Pacific Northwest. I'd love to get back to Shedhorn this year at Big Sky. That was great, really fun. Yeah, who knows, man? I mean, the sport, it's funny, when I first started doing it, Scott Johnston said, well, just imagine it's like Nordic skiing on steroids.
01:07:30
Speaker
which I think is a really great, great analogy for it because it just, it takes so many of the components of Nordic and just elevates them to 11. It's just wicked fun. So yeah, I hope so. I hope to get out there and, uh, and ramble around with it and this year and certainly the coming years. Awesome. Yeah, Sam. Cool guys. Well, thanks so much. And, uh, yeah, we'll, we'll see out on the slopes. Thanks.
01:07:59
Speaker
Thank you, Sam. That was fun. Thanks for joining us today. For more information about what we do, please go to our website uphillathlete.com.