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137: Why Psychological Safety Is A Critical Leadership Skill
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A surprising pivot from nutrition and diet therapy to health and safety launched Danishon "Sean" Felder into a decades-long career investigating incidents, mastering compliance, and navigating complex military and OSHA standards with the US Air Force Reserves and Department of Defense. Sean and Jill discuss why compliance alone isn't enough, the power of mentorship and continuous learning, how risk management evolved into enterprise thinking, and why psychological safety may be the most critical leadership skill today. With his upcoming retirement, Sean is preparing for his "second mountain" in executive coaching and reflects on what truly makes safety cultures thrive. Listen to get a Certified Professional Coach's insights on leadership, culture, and influence techniques!
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Transcript
Introduction of Guest: Deshaun (Sean) Felder
00:00:09
Speaker
This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded February 10th, 2026. My name is Jill James, HSI's Chief Safety Officer.
00:00:19
Speaker
My guest today is Deshaun or Sean Felder. Sean is a senior safety and leadership professional with more than 30 years of experience in the US Air Force Reserve and Department of Defense, where he serves as Chief Enlisted Leader, driving enterprise level safety, risk management and human performance initiatives. Sean is retiring this fall.
00:00:41
Speaker
Sean is a certified safety professional and human and organizational performance practitioner known for advancing strong safety cultures and practical people-centered leadership.
Personal Life and Retirement
00:00:52
Speaker
Today, Sean also works as an executive coach and advisor, helping leaders navigate complexity, transition, and decision-making with clarity and purpose. He resides in Tampa, Florida with his wife and two children. Welcome to the show, Sean.
00:01:08
Speaker
Hey, Jill, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity again and just being able to come on this phenomenal po podcast and this platform that I that i listen to and in particular speaking to someone who I greatly respect in this industry. So thank you again. Humbling. Thank you, Sean. I appreciate it.
Transition to Safety Profession
00:01:27
Speaker
So, Sean, where would you like to start your origin story and how you found your way into safety in the military? How interesting. Yeah.
00:01:37
Speaker
I know. And you're going to hear the reoccurring theme, probably like 99.9% of your guests who's been out here. It was definitely accidental.
00:01:47
Speaker
It was not supposed to happen. I had been in the military at that point for 15 years, 16 years. And I was doing diet therapy. It's a small career field where you work in hospital wars at that time.
00:02:04
Speaker
What was the name of the therapy? What kind of therapy? Diet therapy. Diet therapy. Okay. I thought you said diet for a second. Okay. Diet therapy. Okay. So diet therapy, we worked right under a registered dietitian. So they have their technicians and that's what we are.
00:02:19
Speaker
So we kind of do the legwork. So that's what I originally signed up for the coming to come in the military doing. And I enjoyed it, but it was just getting extremely redundant. And one thing I was noticing as I grew in my career,
00:02:32
Speaker
And if you're familiar with the Myers-Briggs and Strength Finder 2.0 and all these personality assessments, yeah everything about that career field was total opposite of my strengths.
00:02:45
Speaker
ah So it was it was, yeah, so it was only a matter of time. And it was a ah a fellow colleague of mine who I had knew previously throughout a couple of different details that were on in ah in the Air Force.
00:02:59
Speaker
And he had cross-trained. Cross-trained is when you go to another career field.
Early Safety Projects and Challenges
00:03:03
Speaker
And he had cross-trained into safety. And he seen me one day and he was like, hey, man, I think this might suit you well. And at that time, um'm I had no clue of what safety was at all. I thought it I put it along the lines of being the police. I'm like, safety. I'm like, no.
00:03:19
Speaker
And so once I got time to really do my due diligence and look into it, And I just seen at the crossroads I was because I was really leaning heavy towards getting out my military obligation.
00:03:31
Speaker
That's how much I was like really outgrowing the ter career field I was previously in. And i went in, did a little research, spoke to him more. And this was probably over maybe four months.
00:03:41
Speaker
And end up cross-training and winning safety. And, man, it's one of those things. We sit in the military all the time. Sometimes your second and third career should have been the first one, and it should have been the first one. Everything that I loved about work and aspects of work and it safety, hat it was all encompassing. And and now it that is just um totally changed my career, totally changed my perspective. And I just fell in love with it.
00:04:08
Speaker
Wow. So back then, do you remember kind of like what was what were one of some of the first things you worked on? Just as a like if if you didn't know anything about it before and then you got into it like, yeah, what were what were some of those first projects or initiatives?
00:04:24
Speaker
the The biggest thing that I was like, oh, I didn't know you guys do this. All incident investigations. So we call it mishap investigations. And I only automatically assume a person get hurt.
00:04:36
Speaker
They go to the hospital and that was it. But I never knew when you're dealing with the military, we also have an It's a different form of work with compensation. It's a different form of being placed on restricted duty and TLDR. Everything is kind of the same, but a little bit different. But I never knew the behind the scenes of it has to be spoken to the the person who got hurt. Find out what it was. Write a report. Put it into a database. Track trends.
00:05:01
Speaker
Go with analysis. And then over us. we have a governance also and it's called the Air Force Safety Center. So they're the big policymakers who will control it all and all the data goes to those guys. So once I got behind the cedar guy behind the curtain and seen that wizard, I'm like, oh, whoa, okay, this is a lot more comprehensive than I ever imagined. But that was my first down and dirty. And that was a year of just incident investigations and learning about the different classifications where we put people who've been injured or illnesses under it. And so that was, um I knew I had stepped into something. But again, it even as detail oriented that was, it was right in my wheelhouse.
00:05:44
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that sounds like a really great way to start as you're hearing all of those stories from all of the people that you were speaking with, you were learning along the way, like learning. Yeah, learning about the work, the work activities, why people do what they do, how they act the way they act, the things that were missing. Right. I'm guessing.
00:06:04
Speaker
Absolutely.
Understanding Military Safety Compliance
00:06:05
Speaker
yep Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. um What do you what else do you want to say about those those first few maybe years?
00:06:15
Speaker
it's It's all it it's all formative. I think it's any I think it's changing any type of career, industry, sector, job. It's all about learning. And it's the you know, one of the most important thing about our world, Jill, is we hate to say it, but we do deal greatly with compliance.
00:06:33
Speaker
yeah And with compliance comes a lot of technical expertise. So my first five years was just that, understanding the military's standards, regulations, and also understanding OSHA, 1910, 1926, and even a little bit of maritime, a little bit of construction. i was deep into it and so at that.
00:06:55
Speaker
That was just all standard, understanding, confined space, fall pro. So everything that we knew our workers was exposed to, yeah that's like our OJT within the first three years. Like understand this first before you even get to more of the policy side of the house and more of the safety management system side of the house. But along the way, you're going to learn those things. But Man, I was technical Tom the first three years. I was like, jeez, how much more do I know? That's why I love it with these kids these days. I'm like, you just mean you can just chat GPT this? I'm like, man, we were thumbing through those, through those you know, 1,000, 2,000 page manuals, Jill. We got to get it hard way.
00:07:39
Speaker
Yes, yes. Yeah, I mean, I started with the government too. So I know what you're talking about. And on my bookcase behind me are still some of my original codes of federal regulations with my highlighting in them. And, you know, I look at, I usually read things online today, but every once in a while, i crack open one of the paper books because I just like the way it's organized. And I like to, you know, see several things on a page at a time. um Yeah. Anyway. I'm a nostalgia guy too.
00:08:09
Speaker
Sometimes I do that. I have to have my fingerprints hit those pages to be like, okay, I do remember where i come from somewhere. Yeah, exactly. That's true. That is true. It is a fingerprint of our careers. And yeah, I mean, some of the pages, like I'll open some of my regulations, because I know that I'll have marked a certain area for a certain thing that I used for a certain, maybe accident investigation. And I'm like, okay, what was that again? And I know I can go back to that page and find exactly the thing. So what are the, in the Air Force, what are the safety regulations called? you reference, you know, the OSHA regulations, but what are they technically called in the Air Force? So we do call them, we call them Air Force instructions.
00:08:51
Speaker
Okay. So every Air Force instruction, everything that has guidance and directive and what we should do, they have an Air Force instruction. Then it breaks down into a technical guide. It also breaks down into operating instruction. So it gets, it's it's a...
00:09:06
Speaker
It's a weird hierarchy, but it all leads back to the Air Force Safety Center. They're located in Kirtland Air Force Base. And they have maybe thousands of employees. And these are the ones who are the brains behind all the operation of just...
00:09:22
Speaker
This what we notice to be the threat or this is what we notice to be taking place. like thats Like I mentioned, all the data goes to those guys. So they're able to really put the budget where the efforts need to be, which is a good thing. is no money that needs to be wasted.
00:09:38
Speaker
Yeah. but so But they are Air Force instructions and we're driven by and they have a name like... ah Department of the Air Force Instructions 91202. So we're referred to as DAPHI 91202, paragraph 3.2. It's just like it translates the same way just in a standard on the outside. It's just we give them a little bit information.
00:10:01
Speaker
sir to go off of. But the the funny part, Jill, is those standards started off when ice when I began maybe a thousand pages. And now they're down to maybe 200 because what we found out is it was extremely redundant.
00:10:18
Speaker
We're
Geographical Distribution of Safety Roles
00:10:19
Speaker
citing the same thing that's in 1926 and 1910. So why not just bring that standard in play? And so that's what we do now. We utilize OSHA standards.
00:10:31
Speaker
more than anything because again we were just reinventing the wheel and trying to have our own language yeah and it was it was slowly tripping us up it was making it hard for the safety pros that's out there yeah yeah fascinating so ah um sean for people who are of trying to picture like what it looks like where you work in In all of the years you've been doing this work, are you are you primarily on the same base? Does your job move you around? like What is the like the physical locations look like for your career? Mm-hmm.
00:11:08
Speaker
I really try to give it a visual to have, yeah especially lot of my civilian colleagues, a perspective of, say you have this one big corporation, Jill, and we'll call that Air Force Enterprise.
00:11:20
Speaker
And within that business, just like on the outside, they can have multiple businesses. Lines of business or places of business throughout the United States of America. yes Now, through those small individual businesses, they each have a safety director, which is called the occupational safety manager.
00:11:39
Speaker
That's what I am. And so within each installation, which is that business unit, now they have a specific function, whether they're doing a specific airplane for the F-35 or KC-135, a straddle tanker that does refueling. And so within that command in each installation can have in between 500 to maybe 2,000 employees, which is wow military members.
00:12:03
Speaker
So now that person is responsible and their shop usually breaks down to their safety office. is five to six people. So it's an occupational safety manager.
00:12:14
Speaker
And then they have one that's is in charge of the flight side, aviation. You have one that's charge of the weapons because we deal with munitions also. Okay. And then you have specialists, which is about four or five younger junior listed airmen. And those are the techs. That's how we start out with the technical experts. And so that's like the breakdown. and But everybody, again,
00:12:35
Speaker
reports to Kirtland Air Force Base, which is the safety center. But that's kind of it's the same thing. And there, you can put it like the C-suite is Kirtland. yeah And everything spread out big business-wise, they each have their directors. And even with those directors, you have a regional manager too. And those are what's considered to be our major commands.
00:12:55
Speaker
So the hierarchy is similar. The language kind of throw people off. But once you give them that perspective, like, hey, yeah related to a business, it makes a lot of sense, regardless of what that person's rank are is, so to speak, or regardless of what their specific function is.
00:13:12
Speaker
Right, right. Makes total sense. And and you have you work as both a reservist, so you're still in the Air Force Reserve, and you work as a civilian, right? Mm-hmm. So like I mentioned, I'm on the ground in a business unit because i'm the occupational safety manager.
00:13:29
Speaker
Yep. Remember, I also said that each specific area has a regional manager, too. So I also, my role, I'm building it as that regional piece, which is called a chief enlisted manager.
00:13:42
Speaker
of the safety career field in a specific region. And so basically everybody who's in the reserves, Air Force, Reserve Command, I'm one of the chief enlisted managers over those guys. And it's guys and gals. It's maybe ah two to 350 of those. So everything from training, development, certifications,
00:14:03
Speaker
boots on ground to help sending type of manning assistance, any type of brain trust, innovation. That's where we are at the headquarters. who Yeah.
Leadership and Emotional Intelligence
00:14:15
Speaker
Let's, let's stay on that hierarchy for just a second. You had, you had, I think maybe this finishes off this piece. You had told me in our prep that you report to a wing commander. Is that correct?
00:14:30
Speaker
I do. So each one of those installations, those business units, you have a wing commander and a wing commander. He is the end all be all. He's the CEO at that level. And what he's responsible for, we report directly to him.
00:14:45
Speaker
So everything under his care is called the mishap prevention program. And we run that program. But the only fortunate, unfortunate is that they they usually are just a creme de la creme leader.
00:14:58
Speaker
Like they've been around, they've seen it all, they get safety. But the unfortunate piece is that you only have them for maybe 24 months and they're going somewhere else. And so you've got to imagine building that relationship.
00:15:13
Speaker
I don't know. And I've maybe had eight, nine right now. To be married, then divorce, then be married, then divorce, and keep starting over, that gets a little tricky, but that's that's pretty much their role. And it it keeps us on our toes, though, actually, Jill. It's really a good thing because it never gives us a chance to get complacent with what we're doing, innovating-wise, building programs, continuous process improvement. Those things are important.
00:15:42
Speaker
Yeah, Sean, you have to be really... good by now at that relationship building with the with the wing commander and then also like explaining the initiatives and like hey we got it welcome to the job new new leader here's how we've you know here's the lay of the land this is how we do things here you can have confidence in what and what we're doing and then you're building report ah i assume ask permission to do things get approval for things just like you do in the private sector That's it. The first two, it was a little hard getting used to.
00:16:15
Speaker
Yeah. But after that, i started really billing building like a way forward. And one of the first things I do, I kid you not, Jill, before I get any new commander, yeah I read Daniel Goldman's Emotional Intelligence. I read that book every single time because I'm trying to get rid of a lot of the biases I had from the previous one and know that. This person coming in is going to take every ounce of empathy and understanding that I have. So that's like a staple for me. And it it sets me out on the right path, actually.
00:16:49
Speaker
Amazing. Say the name of the book again. It's Daniel Goldman and it's Emotional Intelligence, Why It Matters More Than IQ. That's like one of my favorite books. It it pokes a hole in our thinking big time.
00:17:03
Speaker
Okay, well, i'm I'm going to find that. I'm not familiar with that book. I will find that. Thank you for that. And for our listeners, gosh, imagine getting a new boss every 24 months. Wow. No kidding. Okay, so you started out doing all of these technical things. You're you're learning, you're building on your career. Yeah. What aspects of safety come next or what have you been working on lately as you continue to evolve your career?
00:17:34
Speaker
It's the trajectory, just like most of all the safety pros. You start out, everyone starts out technical.
From Technical Expertise to Policy Development
00:17:40
Speaker
And then our thing is big, heavy. It's still a rank-based system. So say you're doing a technical expertise side.
00:17:48
Speaker
You're going to be anywhere from an E6, which is a technical sergeant, and below. Once you get to E7, that can sit there to be management. So that's your master sergeants in the Air Force. So once I became an E7, now we're starting to really...
00:18:04
Speaker
to the safety management systems, looking into policy, looking into building programs and heavy, continuous processes. and And you're also, you're starting to get credential too.
00:18:17
Speaker
So you're starting to really get into AS, you know, your so social safety certification. You're starting to get into your CSPs and you're learning different because the Air Force only, but it only touches a small piece of EHS. It's real heavy safety, but a lot of environmental and health piece, you really have to seek that information for. It's a lot of continued education, Jill. yeah It's not going to come to you like this. So we have to hunt.
00:18:46
Speaker
We have to really... I was fortunate to grab a couple of real good mentors. One of my guys worked at Geico and the other guy worked at Tesla.
00:18:57
Speaker
And they really helped me start thinking outside of just the Air Force way because our language is kind of foreign and start really thinking broad. And then, as you know, just being a part of ASSP, NC, NSC, you're going to network and meet some phenomenal people in our industry.
00:19:18
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. Sean, I don't think you and I talked about this when we when we had our chat before this recording. I did six months at a um National Guard Reserve base in Minnesota, and I specifically worked in environmental.
00:19:38
Speaker
And that was like right out of right out of safety school. So I bought, you know, you you get a little bit of the environmental thing, but I bounced into that environmental job. And that was so interesting. The types of environmental things that they were focused on. So you you picked up that, like you said, the EHS part along the way, but you had to go and pursue it. Are there are there like in your installation people who specifically just focus on the environmental piece or how does that work?
00:20:05
Speaker
yeah It is. And that's the that's one of the things when you're dealing with ah each installation, you're going to have you're pretty much going to be have oversight of everything, the bulk of what your workers and members are exposed to. But the other things you're going to outsource to. So every installation have what's considered to be a twofold entity that takes care of air sampling and things of that nature. You have what's called bioenvironmental. So they actually have a career for that.
00:20:32
Speaker
CIH, you know, there'll are the and yes all your industrial hygienists, they have a job. And then you also have public health. So they have those folds. So we can see we call it the three headed monster. You have safety, you have bio, and then you have public health.
00:20:47
Speaker
But the only disadvantage that we face, Jill, is that if we don't really try to be implemented within that fold, we can miss out on a lot of good training opportunities and a lot of awareness in that world.
00:21:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't know how much I had missed out on until I really started pursuing my CSP. And I'm looking at those questions they're asking, before just prepping. I'm like, whoa, I have no idea.
00:21:14
Speaker
What these people are talking to. So I began to start shadowing those guys. I started getting on their schedule when they went out, their air sampling or any type of training. And about just as you did, just kind of being thrown in a little bit.
00:21:25
Speaker
About six or seven months, I was actually embedded within their organizations just to learn that side. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have to be a self-starter to do those kinds of things. Cause I assume you could have stayed in your silo had you wanted to, but it doesn't sound like you're that kind of person. Yeah.
00:21:44
Speaker
Yeah. So did that did that lead you like kind of all of those things in your self study? Did that lead you into him you know, dealing with more of the risk piece? And i know you've talked with me about total worker health, like how did how did that piece evolve for you? And what does it look like in practice there?
00:22:06
Speaker
it's It's really the evolution. You see exactly what you're doing, Jill. And I think it's like anything that, like like you mentioned, being trying to be a self-starter and then noticing, like, i'm not I'm not as proficient or comfortable in this world. So I noticed when I wasn't proficient in confined space or fall protection or or different facets of the occupational side.
00:22:30
Speaker
And so I tried to really... you know, enhance that expertise. And the same thing, once I had seen the technical piece and understood the safety management systems from ISO to ANSI to 18,001, and you just keep evolving. And then one of the, about five years ago, the Air Force got real heavy on risk management. It was always a a fixture, but not to the point of Once we deal with, you know, what in quotation marks, war, risk is a big thing also.
00:23:04
Speaker
And so once we started doing different Air Force instructions on risk, I noticed I knew risk, but the only risk I was really aware of was the hazard side. And I got with a good mentor and he's like, hey, you have one piece to this, this, this puzzle, but you know, it's three more pieces. And he's like, what about the operational? What about the strategic side? And what about financial? And once you said that, it just piqued my interest. I'm like, you know what? I never heard of enterprise risk management.
00:23:33
Speaker
And so that was my next, I would try to set, I wouldn't call an audacious goal, but I knew it would take about two or four months to try to understand it. yeah Because again, I was so programmed.
00:23:43
Speaker
Yeah. Was that mentor someone with within the system, within the military system you're in, or was that someone that you sought outside? It was actually outside the four mentors I've had, Jill, or have now, they're all on the civilian side. Because i kind of knew nothing taken against from my colleagues within the military, but I knew what those discussions would look like.
00:24:08
Speaker
But again, once I joined ASSP and started sitting at those tables and those bars with that whiskey and talking to those guys, I'm like, whoa, I have no idea what these guys are talking about.
00:24:19
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And so then I'm like, OK, I have to if nothing else to be able to maneuver these conversations, I have to find out about these different aspects. And they did their due diligence. Hey, here's a couple of books to read or here's a podcast or you may want to pursue this credentialing because it'll throw you in. And that was the first time got introduced to the institutes, the ah the associate and risk management. They're like, hey, if you learn the insurance side and you go through this training and you earn these specific, this credential, it's going to be four different, five different blocks that you've never even known existed. And I didn't.
00:24:56
Speaker
But learning that piece, that was just one scope of risk. And then at the same time, fortunately, The Air Force was just catapulting that wrist side. So I was kind of neck and neck with what they were doing.
00:25:08
Speaker
And I was really learning in that. I fell in love with the wrist piece. I was like, man, this this is big. This is big. This is big boy safety. I get it. I get this part.
00:25:20
Speaker
and No, it it is. That's true. Which of, is there any piece of it that you like better than the others? Like you had mentioned, you know, the the financial and the operational pieces. Are there, is there one that you're like, Ooh, I just really love digging into that one.
00:25:34
Speaker
I did. So once I did the ah dissociated risk management from the institutes, that's when I kind of slid over into the project management Institute and they had a certification of, uh,
00:25:46
Speaker
project management, but in risk management. So it's RMP. But once I fell in that, Jill and got it, understood the the project portfolio and program side, that was my that was my sweet spot. Once I seen, okay, this is a framework and this is how businesses look at risk. Here's the thresholds. Here's the appetite. Once I start hearing that, I'm like, oh, that's how they making and decisions. And you got to know that's It's a money game on the outside. So a lot of different leaders are going to be extremely risk averse.
00:26:18
Speaker
Yes. So we're that piece to help them build that risk management plan. But once I've seen that, I'm like, this is something I really took a liking to. Again, I'm real keen on what falls under my strengths. I don't mind being uncomfortable, but at the same time, I know what keeps me guessing. And I like to be challenged to that part also.
00:26:43
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm just listening to, and you had mentioned Myers-Briggs and StrengthsFinder. I'm going to take a wild guess that in your top five of the StrengthsFinder, Lerner might be one of your top five strengths.
00:26:58
Speaker
did i get that Did I get that right? Or do you remember what your top five are? Lerner is definitely one of them, but it wasn't always that. I try to... i Believe it or not, ju I usually take this like every three years because, again, that's how much we change. That's how much we change with just just life in general. But learning continuously be is up there. And I'm like, okay, that's you read a cliche all the time. We're going to be a lifelong learner.
00:27:24
Speaker
yeah But it is deaf it's it's really true. Yeah, it's an it is. It's a part of life also. Yeah, I mean, and when you meet people who aren't learners, it always is sort of shocking to me because I just assume people want to learn things. and Yeah, it's not. It's not true for everyone. I mean, we all are different, right? um Yeah. Sean, will you talk a little bit? You said you have um mentors and for the audience, you know, I think that's something that especially people who are coming up or people who are thinking about making changes in their career often are like, how do you find these people? Or what do they, what is the benefit? Will you, will you talk about that a bit with your mentors?
00:28:10
Speaker
I will. It's one of those things You're kind of touching on it, Jill. We hear it all the time. But at the same time, there's there's not really a path to
Mentorship and Career Growth
00:28:22
Speaker
it. I can say me personally, there is no one I went up to or there's no one who's come in my life that I have actually placed that title on.
00:28:30
Speaker
yeah it's just organically It organically developed that way. yeah And before I knew it, a couple of phone calls later, a couple of lunch dates, a couple of late night phone calls.
00:28:43
Speaker
throwing information off each other yeah they actually became that mentor but it's one of those things uh maybe we're gonna bump our head we're gonna bump our head but first professionally we're gonna bump our head personally but it's always some people out there who walk that path and they're just waiting to just give you that good wisdom And a lot of times not going to come up to you. So it is a sense of seeking those elder statesmen or people that's been around or not even, you even now I have mentors that's younger than me because I don't know this millennial Gen Z era. I don't know the TikTok-ish and I don't know how to, but their learning styles and the micro learning now and their retention span. And so I'm like, I'm learning that because it's a totally different
00:29:32
Speaker
demographic But it's extremely important. ah The Air Force wrote out a mentorship program six years ago, and they made it a little bit more structured. And then they understood, OK, this has to flow a little better. So it's now you see more leaders getting involved and willing to put their self and time out there to help.
00:29:53
Speaker
Yeah. And that's just, it's just saved so many stumbling blocks there. I think a good mentor is not going to necessarily give you that yellow brick road, but they're going to help you avoid a lot of the cracks that's in there, you know, trying to guide you. And and I enjoyed it. I took it on wholeheartedly because I had great mentors. yeah And at the same time, I wanted to do the same. And it, it, it, it transformed me so much.
00:30:18
Speaker
I noticed becoming a mentor, right? It had given me so much so much joy and so much benefit that I actually took that mentorship piece and used that to catapult me into actually into coaching.
00:30:32
Speaker
And so I became a coach two years ago, simple for the fact of I wanted to understand how much more impactful I could be because I noticed with a mentor what I was doing and what a lot of my mentors began to do until I kind of moved them out of it. It was a lot of what they did. It was a lot of advice.
00:30:53
Speaker
And I noticed a lot of times I had the answers. I just had this narrow perspective. And sometimes I needed to just think out loud. So I needed a person to kind of guide me into it. And that's where coaching came about. I'm like, oh, okay. So you mean to tell me a supervisor is going to tell you what you should do based on the culture.
00:31:13
Speaker
And then you have a mentor who's going to tell you what they did. And then you have a coach who's going to say, okay, you actually have the information. Let me just give you a different perspective how to look at it. That's beautiful. And so that one kind of stuck with me longer. And then again, you know, you have the sponsor.
00:31:28
Speaker
That's the one that's going to really show up for you when not even in the room. So i once I start understanding those four lanes of influence, I'm like, oh. So that actually plays off a person's strength also because everybody, you know, information sticks based on the way they receive it.
00:31:46
Speaker
Yeah, Sean, say again those four lanes. Did you call it four lanes of influence? Is that you called it? It's four lanes of influence, and it's the spectrum is you start with a supervisor. That's the person that's immediate to you.
00:31:58
Speaker
And a lot of times they're going to tell you what to do based on the culture of that organization. yeah Hey, this is how we do business around here. yeah and Then if you do have a mentor, say you move into the mentorship piece, that mentor is going to be also an asset, but a lot of times they're going to tell you what they did.
00:32:16
Speaker
e And then you you know, if you transfer a little bit more of this up, up, up the continuum, you go into a coach, a coach can easily say, hey, you have all the answers, you have the solutions right now is just a little dim. So I just need to facilitate your mode of thinking and real coaching is nothing but a bunch of questions. And by the time those questions are done, normally that person, because I've been on that receiving end, it's already coming to a conclusion. But what I noticed, that information for some reason stuck because they felt like I felt like I had developed the answer.
00:32:51
Speaker
And then as I moved up the chain a little bit. The supervisor didn't fare me well at that point. The mentor was good, but still. But now what I was trying to get to, I needed someone to know my character who's in those rooms, who's going to speak up when I wasn't fair. Now, that was my that was my sponsor guy. He's the one that's hanging.
00:33:09
Speaker
That guy, Sean, he's the guy. And you never know it. Most of the sponsors... My last two significant roles have actually been through a sponsor. And to this day, I have an inkling who, but they never said it.
00:33:24
Speaker
But it's always this person kind of, you know, kind of went to bat for you they kind of vouch for you and say, you're great. You'll be a great candidate for this. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the, yeah, that's beautiful. Thanks for explaining those lanes. And I think about that too, especially as we're um older into our careers, where, you know, I feel like it's a great responsibility to be a sponsor.
00:33:50
Speaker
To, you know, look around and go, hey, somebody's missing here. You know, there's a talent right here and we should consider this person. So you I read in your bio that you are an executive coach and advisor.
Becoming an Executive Coach
00:34:06
Speaker
How did you pursue that? I'm assuming you got a certification. You educated yourself to learn the things that you just laid out.
00:34:15
Speaker
I did. Two, three years ago, the Air Force developed a coaching coach coaching culture facilitator program. And it went through an institute called Flatter. It's ah it's a real just top tier coaching organization that services military contracts.
00:34:32
Speaker
Okay. And so... It's a strenuous program, 14 weeks, over 70 hours. You learn the coaching modalities, frameworks, call the arch. You learn their way of thinking. You try to take yourself out of being a mentor. You actually do coaching demonstrations, and then you get stamped, certified through different Well, different um ah surveys as in exams, so to speak. Sorry. Sure. Watch you coach. And then they're going to rape you based on if they if you've actually hit all the points that they they they they rolled out to you.
00:35:11
Speaker
yeah And so once I started doing that and became a department of the Air Force coach, it just took off from there. I loved it. It was one of those things that kind of fell again within the things that give me purpose and meaning.
00:35:23
Speaker
And it's the way I wanted to go out because I knew I was closing out my military career and I always heard about being a servant leader, but I've always heard it real loosely of what it was. But it's still when you see the tangible impact you can have in people and It just so happened some of my civilian counterparts took notice to it. So it actually transferred well on the outside of the Department of the Air Force, too.
00:35:48
Speaker
And so I began coaching a lot of different a couple of leaders from different organizations, different industries and companies. And again, it's they have all the answers. I'm just a conduit of trying to help them find it. And it just fills me up.
00:36:02
Speaker
Beautiful. So is this a certification that civilians can get as well? Well, right. It is. If you work in the Department of the Defense, it is a civilian aspect of it. It's a military aspect. But it also it sets you up to get certified on the ah if we look at the outside counterpart.
00:36:20
Speaker
So the International Federation of Coaching, IFC, they have an ACC, which the associate coaching certification. You already have enough hours to sit for that exam to be stamped on that side also.
00:36:32
Speaker
Gotcha. Wow. Thank you for that. Those are things maybe Emily, our producer is listening, we can put some links in the, in the notes, in the show notes of the podcast so people can find some of that stuff.
00:36:44
Speaker
Yes, ma'am. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah. So you, Sean, you, you started to just sort of give us a brief glimpse into when you get to the outside. And I had mentioned in your, in your intro that you're going to be retiring this
Retirement as a New Beginning
00:37:01
Speaker
fall. And I think that you, you had said to me, you think about maybe the phases of your life as a mountain, right?
00:37:09
Speaker
You want to talk about, yeah, talk about what's next and what's this mountain business about. I know. It's always funny hearing, hearing, hearing those repeated back. And just like you did, because for some reason, us military people, we talk about the civilian world. Like it's a different side of world and life. They're like, yeah, I'm going to the other side. They're like, oh, are you going to die? Like, no, no, no. like It's the other side. It's the dark side. But no. So, man, maybe three years back.
00:37:37
Speaker
when it I think that's when it when you're maybe 36 months out from retiring, that's when everything really comes into perspective of like, man. and And again, this is something I've known this industry, this world, this military for 30 years, since out of high school.
00:37:53
Speaker
i've I've never seen too much any other things. It's been the way I talk, walk, sleep, wake up, carry myself. So it's a little bit of anxiety just noticing you're leaving that.
00:38:04
Speaker
But we also have David Books is an author and he has this book called Second Mountain. It's so good. It's to the point of having different phases of life in which you serve for his community, being a mentor, just giving back. And he always says you reach that first mountain and that's the peak and and and you've made it.
00:38:27
Speaker
But then you're going to fall in this valley. And then that second mountain, that's where the magic happens because that's when you start really paying it back. That's when you start really paying it forward. So it's the second mountain. and The second mountain is that next chapter of life.
00:38:40
Speaker
What's going to be your big purpose, your big meaning for that one? Because now it's going to be another climb. But when you make it to the da one to that one, that's, man, that's almost the epitome of life because you've seen so much. And normally that is about your second piece, your second chapter of age also for the season of life you're in. So you're going to look at that 45 through 75 year old. and And that's what I consider to be my second mountain up. Like now the military was ah an amazing experience, but I'm really trying to disconnect as, as much as possible because I see a lot of my battle buddies that really struggle to leave that identity because it can't easily become an identity.
00:39:26
Speaker
Right. And they really pigeonhole themselves from moving into something that could be just as beneficial. And now that's what I'm really focused on. Like you mentioned, the coaching or or different different pieces of the industry or how does risk serve me well? Or like we spoke briefly, you know, a couple of weeks ago about the consulting piece and just trying to learn as much as possible to a point of, you know, people say that cliche, like really do what you love. And i'm like, I think that really exists.
00:39:55
Speaker
It does. you know I'm um um um um hunting that down. Even if I don't love it in the beginning, it's only because it's it's new. So that's and that's what I really you know put a label on that's That's the second mounting mountain, so to speak. Yeah, I agree. i agree with that. And I think there are certain phases of life where... The finding the peace you love that gives you the energy to keep going in a career. Sometimes it's fleeting and sometimes you have to readjust multiple times, maybe even throughout a year.
00:40:27
Speaker
And sometimes it's years where you're like, oh, I'm just flying on this. I mean, I know for me, that's been my career, you know, where, um yeah, anyway, I had a great week. had a great week last week where i'm like, gosh, I love working with this team. You know, I love the things we're doing. Yeah. And then you're kind of always readjusting. um So, yeah, you are um you are nearly at the base of your second moment.
00:40:55
Speaker
Or in the valley, as you spoke, right? Yeah. You're in the valley. Yeah, beautiful. Beautiful. um Sean, you had said that that um on on your side, where you are now, often people look out to the civilian world with, I think you said, perhaps in admiration of EHS on the
Admiration for Civilian EHS Roles
00:41:19
Speaker
outside. what Why do you think that is?
00:41:22
Speaker
Or, yeah, what is that about? it's it's It's more of when we look at it, it's a sense of we know what we touch or basically what's within our oversight.
00:41:35
Speaker
But if any safety professional within the Department of Defense or even the Army or the Navy, if they're really introspective and honest with themselves, we also know the 75 percent of stuff that we don't touch.
00:41:49
Speaker
And that that we're not exposed to. So we see people of your your as yourself and different, you know, individuals on the civilian side. And you see them with that title director of or are doing this or chief of you really you really take heed to that because, you know, for that person to get where they are.
00:42:10
Speaker
they've they've touched a lot. They've been exposed to a lot. And it's nothing. I tell my guys all the time, if you're on LinkedIn and you see someone who's in our world, it would be you will be doing a disservice if you don't go to their actual page and look at their experience.
00:42:26
Speaker
And if they have anything worth interest, if you don't shoot them a cold DM, you've missed a world of opportunity. hey I can't tell you how many people I've reached out to just because what they're doing I don't know that that world. I don't know that industry. I don't know that scope. And I just want to know. And that's the opening to my DM.
00:42:49
Speaker
Hey, I see you do such and such. That interests me. I'm in this certain type of scope right now. I'm not exposed to that. I would just love to hop on a call and I'll just shoot them a Starbucks $10 gift card. We have a coffee check.
00:43:04
Speaker
And I'll just try to make sure, hey, whatever they have. And I'm all ears. Sometimes they're checking like, are you there? Oh, well, no, I'm here. I'm just listening to everything you're saying. So that's why I say we really hold an admiration on the outside because I've seen, the you know, the Jill James and the Scott DuBose and the Abby Ferries and the Sabina Collegue. I've seen all these people and I'm just in like, man, they really are are the upper echelon of our industry.
00:43:33
Speaker
And that's what we're trying to get that understanding and that of wisdom. So it can help also navigate our decision making of what fit we want to move into. Also, Jill, yeah that's the biggest thing is that a lot of times it's an 89 percent.
00:43:49
Speaker
Stat right now, most of the first jobs anyone takes after retiring from the military, They quit 85%. Wow. Wow. Because it's a, it's a lack of information. We just move it. We're so happy to get a check.
00:44:04
Speaker
We're moving in the first thing that calls us. And it, it can't, we don't want to waste that time. Like that we don't want to waste that opportunity. And so that's one of the things that I really speak to my guys about. Like, Hey, it's, it's, it's so the world is just open for accessibility right now. And people are just thirsty to give you the information.
00:44:24
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think what you've pointed out, 85% is like stunning and also, also not surprising. You know, I think about, you know, my, my, I worked in the, in the government. That was my first career for the first 12 years was in the government. I did the little teeny weeny weeny weeny piece in the, um, uh, on a military base and the structure The structure is the piece that doesn't exist in the same way on what you call the outside.
00:44:59
Speaker
And so that was the part that was so jarring to me when I was so used to the, like, let's call it the rules of engagement, the systems that were in place, the the procedures, the...
00:45:12
Speaker
you know, the mountains and mountains of I have a policy for this. This is how it's done. This is how you do it. And then you go into the private sector and much of that doesn't exist. Or if it does exist, it changes or it's flexible um or it's negotiable.
00:45:32
Speaker
And that is a complete different flex of the mind. And I know you and I have talked about that before. Like that was the thing that was the biggest aha for me. Like, oh gosh, it this is a different world. And so I think it's so wise that you've spent these months considering how you can apply all of the fabulous things that you've learned, you know, that square hole Tim. Or that that that that square thing into the round hole, how is it going to fit in it sounds like you're doing a masterful job schooling yourself to figure out how that how you the gifts you have now can apply on the outside.
00:46:18
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. Try it. Try it, Jill. Try it. Yeah, you're doing it. You're doing it. It's it's great. It's great. It's um it's ah a good piece of learning for anyone who's listening who may be in a similar situation. I mean, and same same thing if you're switching industries.
00:46:35
Speaker
You know, if you're going from if you're going from a job in maybe a medical setting and all of a sudden you're going into a factory or agriculture, it's totally different systems and processes. Yeah.
00:46:48
Speaker
Same thing. I mean, the things you're talking about apply. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. Sean, what else do you want to leave with lead our audience with?
Importance of Psychological Safety
00:47:00
Speaker
Man. Again, just the opportunity. Thanks again, Jill. Just been amazing conversation just to give you know people a little glimpse into what we do and see that we're similar. And the fight is a fight. And it's total work of hell.
00:47:12
Speaker
Saving people's lives, making sure the way people show up is the same way they leave mentally, physically, spiritually. we we We kind of double down on those same things. But other than that, just...
00:47:26
Speaker
think right now it's it's and we're seeing it just based on the climate that psychological safety is a big deal right now it's a big deal because i think it's so easy to look at the visible pieces not just safety but just what we can see but that invisible aspect is right now even more important and we have guys that's in my world and Just imagine you're working on aircraft. If you're not 120% locked in, that can be catastrophic.
00:47:59
Speaker
yeah And so what we really, the philosophy we're spilling right now, and we really try to outside of just human and organization performance, it's still that psychological safety piece. you You've seen it, Jill, particularly in our industry. We've been through everything from Swiss cheese to the hierarchies of control to the the the the the pyramid and behavior-based safety.
00:48:23
Speaker
Nothing right now is all-encompassing to me personally is psychological safety because it covers everything. Yeah. And it's not just safety because we got to look at, you know, some of the ones that spearheaded your Amy Emerson's and your Timothy Clark's. These guys are nothing tied into our world.
00:48:43
Speaker
But yet what they're preaching is our philosophy. And I just think that's what we are just based on the climate. So that's if if anything, I could tell leaders. or colleagues or coworkers or husbands or fathers, spouses, just, yeah you know, take that time to really listen. My, you know, I'm going to be totally honest and say my career took off. now we're Not in particular a lot of stuff we talk about.
00:49:11
Speaker
My career took off when I began to listen. When i shut up and just started listening and didn't have an ulterior motive or something to spit back real quick. Mm-hmm. That's when I was able to really understand people and human nature and the internal struggles and the empathy side. And that's what that what that wouldn't what makes a person extremely an asset.
00:49:35
Speaker
When you're dealing with a safety professional or you're just dealing with a person who just want to be instrumental within their organization. Yeah, right. I mean, and the the psychological safety piece, you know, people like to think about it as, I mean, sometimes i'm literally asked, like, can you take a class? Like, is there a training class on that? You know, I mean, it's it's how to human. I think of it as a how to human. Oh, I love that. You know, how to human and how to human for the common good.
00:50:05
Speaker
And I think the challenge of of our profession is like, so A, spreading that word, but then how do we do it to scale?
00:50:16
Speaker
You know, which is a word that's you know used in industry all the time. Like, okay, that's a good idea. but we can't do it one thing at a time. How do we do that to scale? And I think that's the question right now. and you know, maybe part of those answers are being curious, being a listener, understanding that, you know, a human being comes as a unique a unique um person, you know, having their own spiritual experience in a human body, and we're all not the same.
Conclusion: Human Well-being and Psychological Safety
00:50:49
Speaker
and that we're all going to show up at work and in our relationships, however we woke up that day with the forces at play, whether it be pain or a headache or a conflict or a financial burden or completely keyed in, you know, and how does that mind work and how are they making decisions? And gosh, it seems overwhelming, but also it's being, like you said, quiet and listening. Mm-hmm.
00:51:18
Speaker
I love it. That was, um, that was my sneaky way. This podcast is getting that wisdom you just shared. Selfishly. Selfishly. Well, Sean, I don't know how to do it to scale. And that's what we really need to be doing right now. You know? Yeah.
00:51:35
Speaker
Yeah. How do we be that for each other? Yeah. and maybe And maybe doing that at scale is like teaching that for to one person and the next person and the next person and the next person, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what it is. It's it's it's it's that easy just by you doing it. it is What you just gave me, Jill, is now I i can give that to another 200 people, just the way you said that, because that that's important.
00:52:01
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you, Sean. There's been a lot of good wisdom dropped here today. And I feel like you and I are going to need a follow up call because I'm like, Oh, I want to ask him about this. ah Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate the time you've taken today and wishing you so much, so much luck on your, on your exit and the valley and the next mountain.
00:52:28
Speaker
Jill, I appreciate you. Thank you again for having me. This has been ah an amazing experience just to be able to, you know, share knowledge with you. And trust me, I took way more from you than I can give because, again, you're someone when I do hold in high regard within this industry.
00:52:44
Speaker
Thank you, Sean. Goes both ways. And thank you all for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May our employees and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human well-being, which is the core of our practice. If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple podcast app, or any other podcast player you'd like.
00:53:08
Speaker
Or if you prefer, you can read the transcript and listen at hsi.com. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals like Sean and Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer. And until next time, thanks for listening.