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128: Resilience, Repair, and Finding Balance
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In today's ever-changing landscape, health and safety professionals need to practice resilience more than ever. For this special 7th anniversary episode, previous guest, Chip Hughes, discusses significant challenges in the industry, focusing on the evolving recognition of mental health's impact on workplaces, and the changes to critical government agencies like NIOSH. Jill and Chip share resilience practices, discuss the importance of resilience for safety professionals, and hit on the need to improve communication of complex health and safety information effectively.
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Transcript
Introduction and Anniversary Celebration
00:00:08
Speaker
This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode is recorded May 23rd, 2025. My name is Jill James, HSI's Chief Safety Officer, and this is the seventh anniversary of the podcast.
00:00:22
Speaker
Seven years ago in the month of May, this show began, and I am honored to share the stories, experiences, and expertise from each guest with this listening audience.
00:00:33
Speaker
So thank you all for being here all these years and counting.
Guest Feature: Chip Hughes, Worker Justice Advocate
00:00:38
Speaker
My guest this anniversary episode is my friend Chip Hughes. Chip is a worker justice titan.
00:00:44
Speaker
I really mean that. And you'll hear why in just a second. If his name sounds familiar to you, maybe you remember hearing him on episode 54 back 2020.
Innovative Training and Recognition in Worker Safety
00:00:52
Speaker
back in twenty twenty Chip pioneered efforts to create new methods for conducting needs assessments, reaching underserved populations, developing training partnerships, and creating innovative program evaluation measures.
00:01:05
Speaker
He began his career in 1972 as a writer, researcher, and organizer with the Institute for Southern Studies, a social justice organization based in Atlanta, Georgia.
00:01:17
Speaker
In 1990, Chip began a 30-year career as program administrator with the federal government, directing the NIEHS, which stands for National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, Worker Training Program, and designing training programs for vulnerable workers in high-risk occupations.
00:01:35
Speaker
Chip was given the Department of Health and Human Services Secretary's Award for Exceptional Service in 2001 for his role in responding to the World Trade Center attacks. And after the NIEHS response to the Katrina disaster, Chip was given the Health and Human Services Secretary's Award for Distinguished Service in 2006.
00:01:58
Speaker
and the National Institute of Health Directors Award in 2011 for responding to the Deepwater Horizon oil spill.
Career Path: From NIH to OSHA and Beyond
00:02:05
Speaker
In 2011, Chip was given the Tony Masaki Award for Lifetime Achievement by the National Council for Occupational Safety and Health.
00:02:13
Speaker
After retiring, which I put in air quotes with my fingers as I'm saying this, from the NIH, Chip accepted a role with federal OSHA as Deputy Assistant Secretary for Pandemic and Emergency Response.
00:02:25
Speaker
And then after retiring again, but took on a role as policy advisor with MDB Inc, where he is today. MDB focuses on emergency public health, environmental science and health, global health and climate change, safe water and occupational safety and health.
Championing Worker Health and Safety
00:02:43
Speaker
All of this to say, Chip has seen, experienced, and solved some intense challenges for worker health and safety, and has stood in the gap to protect and promote worker justice for decades.
00:02:55
Speaker
Today, asked him back on this anniversary episode to talk about the hard things we face as a profession and the critical importance of having a personal resilience practice so that we all might do and continue to do our critical work chip joins us today from north carolina welcome back chip oh shucks
00:03:19
Speaker
ah hush
00:03:22
Speaker
ah what's going on in your world i'm hearing a bird in the background what's it like in north carolina today yeah We're tweeting. It's kind of fallish. The sky is blue. The clouds are beautiful. Yeah, it's nice. This is in the 70s.
00:03:36
Speaker
Yeah. Perfect. lovely Perfect. lovely It feels like I'm in Minnesota, you know? oh Oh, probably not. It's not quite that warm here. I'm still bundled up. Had wear mittens on my walk this morning.
00:03:46
Speaker
So, Chip, when
Mental Health and Worker Well-being
00:03:50
Speaker
I asked... Thank you for that introduction. That was very sweet. you're welcome yeah You're welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome. When I asked if you'd join me today, i asked if you'd be willing to talk about the hard things in our profession and about resilience.
00:04:03
Speaker
I'd like to start by asking you about some of the hardest things or challenges you've seen, helped with, or experienced in your career. Yeah, I think, you know, probably...
00:04:16
Speaker
you know, how the evolution of our awareness about the impact of mental health on workers and workplaces um is probably the biggest thing, you know, for me going back to being on the pile at the World Trade Center, um you know, coining or feeling that term of about a thousand-mile stare, you know, of people in precarious, uncontrolled, unpredictable situations and um having that impact on health overall and mental health,
00:04:58
Speaker
um is probably something to me that has driven my concern about um trying to think about how to respond to to that, to those issues, mental health issues.
Opioid Crisis and Total Worker Health
00:05:12
Speaker
um And, you know, more recently over the years, ah you know, thinking about response to the opioid crisis in the workplace, um you know, has ah it's really been the driver for concerns that we have about total worker health, thinking about mental and physical health issues. So, yeah, I think that's a big one.
00:05:37
Speaker
It's big one. It is a big one and and and and that's and a nut that's so important to crack. And I hope that we can in our lifetimes. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think we've made progress a lot on doing that.
COVID-19 Response and Community Resilience
00:05:50
Speaker
So I'm pretty optimistic. um You know, to me, the other the other thing that might reflect upon is that, and you might remember also, during the beginning of the COVID pandemic, um i in and actually March of 2020, you know, I started convening these organizations ah Friday afternoon calls that were um kind of a week look back um each week as COVID progressed.
00:06:20
Speaker
And I think we were actually partnered with HSI at that time, you know, as we developed the first um yes kind of COVID modules for e-learning ah for workers um that that that, you know, where we were trying to actually take, um you know, we'll say,
00:06:37
Speaker
ah quick breaking news and turn it into training materials, you know, as our understanding of worker protection at that time evolved. And um one of the things that I wanted to reflect upon was that ah that actually became ah a template for um bringing people together in group settings ah to deal with kind of the emotions of the moment um that we were feeling.
00:07:07
Speaker
And I don't know if you were part of this. I was part of it i remember i remember i remember it I remember it very specifically. And I remember being wrung out every time because you're we were hearing from people from around the nation, from all different aspects and walks of life. And employment settings.
00:07:28
Speaker
And you're right. It was like breaking news. Here's what's happening in this quarter. Yeah. And, and the thing that I, that I remember that I did, because I, I believe that group ah meditation is really important is that I invited um meditation leaders to lead um online group meditation And ah it was it was something that um I still sort of look back on as as being really significant ah because it was sort of a group healing resilience process that we were doing with, you know, a group of people who were in severe trauma at that time.
00:08:18
Speaker
And, um, it, it, it, um, it became, you know, really a beacon of hope, I think, uh, with our community and our community of course was, you know, trainers and people who were working with, with essential frontline workers, um, as we sort of, um, groped through, ah this, this process, um, that we, that we as a nation and as a world we're dealing with.
00:08:45
Speaker
And, um, So I always look back to that really fondly. And and it it was funny because I um ah later, you didn't include this in my resume, but i i after i left ah um the Biden administration, I actually undertook a conversion process to Judaism.
00:09:07
Speaker
um And i I also was in the middle of actually doing my bar mitzvah. And um you what what was funny about it was I actually got the ah great honor during the services on the BIMA to um talk about um occupational safety and health um and um mental health resilience.
00:09:32
Speaker
um Actually, around this okay sort of crazy thing where, um i don't know if you remember this, you know ah okay Moses actually was was was leading you know the the the people at that time.
00:09:48
Speaker
and And I don't know remember when God had said, ah thou shall not work on the Sabbath. um and and And so there there was an issue in the Bible where, I think was in Leviticus, where ah one of the people in in Moses' tribe um actually was collecting...
00:10:10
Speaker
ah um sticks for a fire and he actually got stoned to death ah because he was working on the Sabbath and so um when I did my Devar it was actually about this question about work and health um ah of whether we actually pay attention to um rules ourselves about healthy work and and sort of the limitations on our bodies and our minds for doing that.
00:10:45
Speaker
um But um anyway, i know I'm far afield of where we were, but... No, I mean, it's it's yeah it's perfect it's perfect, Chip. And it's it's where it's where I want this conversation to go today as we're talking about hard things and the balance of resilience. and And during that time with these these Friday afternoon calls, which sometimes were more often than just Fridays, especially in the beginning...
00:11:09
Speaker
yeah And I was part many of those meditation endings to those meetings with you. And it left such a mark on me. And i want to I want to come back to that after we talk about some more hard things. But yeah you you were working on your conversion, as you say.
00:11:28
Speaker
And and congratulations on that and the hard work in that as well. And, you know, from that time and what i experienced and learned um from you in that setting, I started my own journey as well, which.
00:11:43
Speaker
um Yeah. ah Which so ended up being 500 hour so study of sacred yogic texts. Oh, wow. well and And I teach breath and meditation now.
00:11:58
Speaker
Oh, my God. That's so great. In my community. That's so great. And, you know, all launched from resilience that I learned from that time together. That's so great. so Yeah.
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah. In my Devar, my sermon, you know, I made reference to ah like ah Shabbat Shalom calls. That was sort of my regular practice for going into the Sabbath, um which which really was what those initial calls were about. And then that, you know, ah like I would call it a Jonathan Rosen or an Arturo or a Gila at five o'clock on Friday as Shabbat began.
00:12:38
Speaker
So um that became a big tradition for me that that continues on, um you know, because of, um you know, how we actually sort of hold each other and then create that,
00:12:51
Speaker
You know, that kind of sacred space for conversations. That's right. I see that as a really big part of um our our our work as health and safety professionals ah to to do that, which is, you know, kind of like the joining of our our personal lives and our professional lives. Yeah.
00:13:09
Speaker
that's That's right. And sacred sacred space is a good is a good word, i I think, for us to think about in terms of the hard work that we each do. In in my tenure, and you know that I worked for the OSHA agency for yeah almost a decade. And yeah and when i when I travel the countryside in my state where I did my work as an investigator, i call the... When I...
00:13:37
Speaker
I call the spaces where someone lost their life sacred space. And so when I'm when I'm driving through my state, like I was a couple of weeks ago and my partner and I were on our way to we're on our way to South Dakota for college graduation and we got to this one community.
00:13:56
Speaker
And I said to him, I'm like, Mark, you know, sacred space here in this community. This is where Nick lost his life right here. And this this business that was a bank is now this. And now we just drove past that graveyard and that's where he is. And, and um you know, ah it's sacred space.
00:14:14
Speaker
and And we hold that and we have those sacred spaces in in our work lives, in this work as EHS professionals and the hard work that we do every day. And some of those days are harder and more devastating than others.
00:14:30
Speaker
And many of us who and people who are listening do this work solo or as part of smaller teams and and our challenges sometimes come with from within our organizations, whether that's, you know, we're trying to get an initiative pushed forward against some resistance, we're trying to get budget for something or we're working alone and there's, you know, two too too much work and not enough hands and and yeah and sometimes And sometimes our work is also impacted by forces that come at us from the outside.
00:15:04
Speaker
outside Outside forces that impact our work is something that you, Chip, have dedicated your career to, whether it was a natural disaster, an oil spill, or a terror attack, or a pandemic, or socioeconomics.
00:15:16
Speaker
yeah and And our listeners have experienced those outside forces impacting their work um as well. So those those challenges that come at us from the outside, experience together as a profession like we did during the pandemic.
00:15:34
Speaker
And and today um we're having one of those experiences again. from outside our organization with the workforce reductions at the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health and the cuts to the important work that they do there, which impacts all of us professionally and the people that we serve.
00:15:57
Speaker
So yeah for for listeners who might not be aware of the history of what NIOSH is and its work, um could you give a little bit of a... of a history lesson for our listeners. Just a little, a little bit based on, based on your, yeah.
NIOSH's Role in Workplace Safety
00:16:15
Speaker
Yeah, no, I was just thinking ah ah the NIOSH actually was created out of the Occupational Safety and Health Act, which, of course, was passed in 1970 and signed by President Nixon.
00:16:30
Speaker
And don't know if you remember, I actually sponsored a 50th anniversary. I do remember I was there. Mm-hmm. um And then, you know, kind of a remembrance of ah the first people who were part of the ah creation of um Osha Nyosh and the passage of that act and everything that went into that, which, of course, in terms of looking at history from the 1960s, really the um the ah coal mining industry and the the deaths of coal miners in accidents and also ah in black lung, ah you know, was an important part, that each actually a precursor even to the the passage of the Occupational Safety and Health Act of OSHA.
00:17:17
Speaker
um And so, you know, the the the important thing that is about the birth of NIOSH is, ah you know, how we actually bring research-backed, based um approach to how we think about the prevention of chronic workfor workplace diseases and and injuries and illnesses and And so, you know, whether it's HHE's, health hazard evaluations, that might look at um an acute situation of doing an assessment of something that we can't figure out that's going on that's hurting people or, you know longer-term research programs around specific health issues or thinking back to the origins of the original act, which was
00:18:11
Speaker
ah the creation of criteria documents um that um did literature overviews and adopted kind of a holistic approach to how we think about prevention.
Impact of Administrative Cuts on NIOSH
00:18:28
Speaker
um You know, like just thinking back, one of the original criteria documents was about heat. Yeah. you know, hot heat. Yeah. And And gee, aren't we still talking about that today? Oh, yeah. We're so. Well, I guess we're allowed to, yeah. ah but ah But, you know, kind of that's been the evolution of NIOSH as a research-based agency focused on worker safety and health.
00:18:54
Speaker
And, um you know, unfortunately, it's been you know, placed in the crosshairs of um this ah ah ah kt most current administration um and this sort of existential moment that we're in around ah the survival of, um you know, a science-based approach to,
00:19:16
Speaker
um to to prevention and protection of workers. So um what I wanted to reference is kind of two events that happened yesterday. One, yeah course, was the the the Maha ah ah release of the a chronic disease report at the White House ah with the president and with Secretary Kennedy, um which is, you know, this effort to look at how chronic disease disease conditions are impacting, um well, children, but also our entire population, which is ah really important issue.
00:19:52
Speaker
And then also at the same time was the the ah ah ah large rally and demonstration to support ah the continued existence of NIOSH um as an organization um So, you know, the the point being that we kind of had this confluence of factors around, um you know, having concern about protecting people at the same time that we have the the dissolution and destruction of kind of the core infrastructure that's driven efforts to protect workers,
00:20:29
Speaker
um and And each of them are kind of um running into each other um in in this um this the sort of question about what's the proper role of the government?
00:20:43
Speaker
ah What's the proper role of scientific research? and And, you know, and to me, as a government worker and now government contractor, you know, what, what's kind of the best approach for, uh, for protecting people.
00:20:58
Speaker
And, um, I, I, um, am of course baffled like everybody else. Um, but you know, I'm also angry and I'm upset and I want to, um, preserve, uh, you know, our profession and, uh, the science base that we've developed, um, to keep being able to use it to protect people. So,
00:21:19
Speaker
it's It's quite a quandary, I must say. it is It is a quandary. and it's And it's not as if the work at NIOSH is complete. No. No, no.
Emerging Threats: AI in the Workplace
00:21:30
Speaker
As you talked about, the the at any of us who have done this work for any amount of time know that...
00:21:36
Speaker
some hazards are the same hazards that we've been battling forever. And then some are new things. Oh, yeah. Some are things that we're, you know, like what you talked about with mental health impacts aren't new. It's it's something that we hadn't been paying attention to before.
00:21:54
Speaker
But yeah um yeah the opioid crisis. It's still like the you know last the last year, i I've not even talked to you about this, but um no, I decided a year ago to focus on AI as a health and safety risk and the in the workplace.
00:22:08
Speaker
yeah I'm not talking about avian influenza, by the way. Right. I'm talking about artificial. Which is also something that NIOSH would research. Yeah, of course. But I'm talking about artificial intelligence. And, you know, it was interesting because John Howard actually published a really um elegant piece in the American Journal of Industrial Medicine.
00:22:28
Speaker
And i actually, I was at a keynote address that he recently gave where, um you know, as as we think about how an algorithmic workplace operates and that we kind of have our...
00:22:43
Speaker
um SOPs are standard operating procedures being determined by bots that we don't even know how they decided to tell us what to do. You know, we kind of face new health and safety threats that we had never even anticipated.
00:23:03
Speaker
And so just going to your point about emerging threats and how we think about them or how we respond to them, That's been one that I've been obsessed with for the past year.
00:23:17
Speaker
and ah Yeah. and and is yeah And is the work and has been the work of of NIOSH. So, you know, if this sounds like news to people, um yes, there's been cuts to the workforce at NIOSH and also.
00:23:34
Speaker
um also the work that people have been doing and are currently doing. Are there any other examples that you'd like to give so our listeners kind of know what's at stake if this sounds like something new to them?
00:23:46
Speaker
Well, no, I think that um the question about are the priorities in our country, um whether it's about OSHA or it's about EPA um ah or my my own home agency, NIEHS ih s the National Institute of Health,
00:24:07
Speaker
um it So it's really hard. And of course, I i know it too well because um I personally know so many people who've lost their jobs or had their careers interrupted and had... And their research. Yeah.
00:24:23
Speaker
Yeah, and had all, you know, information that was publicly available that was on a website, which is, has been disappeared. And, you know, all i' all those things. I've looked for a few things that I can't find. They're gone. They're gone. They're gone. Yeah. So, so really hard. And that's not hyperbole for anyone who's listening. No, no, not really, not really. And no, and so we we are still, you know, i I feel like part of my job has been ah to help support the people who are on the front lines and who are still in the agencies and who are still trying to figure out what the right thing to do is.
00:25:05
Speaker
um do do that. And, ah you know, I think it's a, it's a, um it's sort of an existential fight ah for um the future of our profession that is ah really worth doing.
00:25:20
Speaker
And I, you know, I, I think what's hard is that um I, I think about times that I've felt like ah I, I,
00:25:31
Speaker
I hated the federal government. i hated the government. i didn't believe what the government was saying. and And so, you know, when you think about credibility and truth and belief, ah you know, I i' i feel that the hard thing that we have to reflect upon um yeah as as professionals is that, um in in a sense, are um our perspective and our beliefs are being called into question um and and our credibility um is being called into question.
00:26:05
Speaker
but But we have to understand that you know, from a effective communications perspective about health communication that, and and and that is the most painful thing to say is to feel like our, our health, our, our efforts to communicate health risks, health problems, health solutions has not been effective.
00:26:29
Speaker
And that we, you know, we've um lost our, our capacity to um communicate with broad swaths of the American people.
00:26:42
Speaker
And of course, you know nothing illustrates that better than COVID, um you know where what what we might think is a very clean and clear and elegant solution of whatever, wearing a mask, getting a vaccine,
00:27:02
Speaker
so doing doing Doing ventilation. Remove the hazard. like yeah the third lighting Yeah, the things EHS professionals knew forever once we knew what hazard it was the deal that are so we would think would be so unquestionable at all. you know and And so i you know I think that's kind of where where I've landed here in doing, don't know, professional introspection about um what what it is that we, you know, and and I'm sure ah Francis Collins and Tony Fauci are, you know, they might be angry, but they're thinking the same thoughts, which are
00:27:45
Speaker
you know, how can we do better better um to to take, you know, i and I think what the biggest thing to me is knowing the complexity of the scientific process where we know that we're always dealing with a hypothesis that we don't know whether we're going to answer it or not with however our intervention goes.
00:28:10
Speaker
That is a complexity that then you have to, um you know, explain to the American people that, ah like, for example, like fewer people will end up in the hospital if they get ah ah a COVID vaccine.
00:28:26
Speaker
But of course, people are still going to get COVID. And yes, they still might end up in a hospital. But, ah you know, how how you explain that nuance to people, I think, is still like a risk communications challenge.
00:28:43
Speaker
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, and I think it's one that resonates with with any of the listeners to this podcast and in our profession.
Communicating Health Risks Effectively
00:28:51
Speaker
It's, you know, same with, you know, pick pick a hazard, pick a health hazard, pick you know, exposure to noise.
00:28:58
Speaker
Right. and Yeah. Like community communicating the importance of protecting your hearing. Yeah. what That will do for your total health. And, you know, like, yeah, we could we could talk about examples all day.
00:29:12
Speaker
Yeah. So, yeah yeah you know, if if um everyone who's who's listening, if some or all of this hard news is new to you, I'm i'm sorry to be bearer of some challenging news.
00:29:28
Speaker
And and i want everybody to know that there's some good news, too. um Yeah, it, you know, and one of those pieces of good news is if anyone who's a listener is a member of ASSP, the American Society Safety Professionals, or the AIHA, the American and Industrial Hygiene Association, or if your organization is part of the National Safety Council, know that those organizations, along with 460 other organizations, have banded together with one voice to urge Congress to stop the planned cuts to NIOSH.
00:30:02
Speaker
So ASSP and the AIHA and NSC all have written about their advocacy, and I'll include links to those statements in the show notes so that you can read them yourselves.
00:30:13
Speaker
And, you know, this is indeed a ah shared hard time. hard time with implications on our profession and the workers that we serve. And so know that individuals and professionals, we too can advocate for ourselves um and ask or ask one of our professional organizations that we belong to how we can be supportive to their advocacy on behalf of our profession. And I think there's good news.
00:30:41
Speaker
I think there's good news in that. I think there's good news in that. Love the optimism. Keep hope alive. Please keep hope alive. Right. I mean, and that's what, that's what comes with, with resilience. So let's get back, let's get back to that piece or start talking about it. Um,
00:30:59
Speaker
Yeah, start talking about it. So I want to go ahead, Chip. Did you want to say something? No, you go. yeah All right. So you had mentioned 2020. You mentioned the Friday afternoon calls that we did um with with and during COVID and yeah the intensity of that time. And, you know, thank you for inviting me into those Friday calls and my coworkers at HSI and the opportunity that we had to um work with your subject matter experts to create the training that went out across the country.
00:31:35
Speaker
oh And, and each of those Friday calls, I was like, holy crap, this is so hard. you know, like, this is so hard.
00:31:46
Speaker
And so many of the The people that were coming to the calls were talking about such devastating things. And then the subject matter experts that you had assembled to be that cadre of people to help to create the training to help protect the people who are on the front lines.
00:32:07
Speaker
this wasn't new to you. You had been doing this as I read in your bio through many, ah many, many a disaster. Yeah. But then I would hear joy, joy in your voice.
00:32:18
Speaker
And I would hear joy in the voices of the other people that you've been working with in a millennia and for millennia. And, and I'm like, you see, what in the heck? How are these people doing this? Like, I've got a box of Kleenex on my desk after one of these calls.
00:32:34
Speaker
Like, and Chip is still laughing and he's happy. And yes, we are ending with these meditations, but holy cats, he's been at this for over 30 years.
00:32:46
Speaker
And he keeps coming back to the well to do another challenge of another hard thing and another hard thing and another hard thing with all of the people who've worked along and beside you for all of these years. So I remember like calling you and asking like, how the heck are you doing this? Like, I don't know.
00:33:02
Speaker
You know, like, I feel like, yeah ah like I have no idea how to do this. So I'm curious if um you, would could you share with us, like, when did you figure out that resilience was important in your
Personal Resilience Journey
00:33:19
Speaker
career? And then maybe how do you define it, Chip?
00:33:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You know what's so funny? I think back to ah public health school and I think back to feeling like health for health promotion was this sham thing.
00:33:38
Speaker
that and and and for for this audience you know when when total worker health came out um you know i i feel like um i i didn't buy it at all um because and and no offense no offense to naias or anybody out there because i feel like i've evolved what i think about that um and uh A lot of it has to do with feeling like we um blame the victim for um the circumstances that people find themselves in.
00:34:16
Speaker
And that might have to do with, you know, in in the case of Total Worker Health, about feeling like ah we were focusing on um problems that individuals have versus problems hazards that are in the workplace.
00:34:35
Speaker
and And I feel like that's been a evolving, uh, struggle, uh, to come to bigger viewpoint about that. And, um, where I wanted to go with this is that, you know, to me, uh, I feel like in the course of my life, uh,
00:34:55
Speaker
Like i had I had a stroke in my 50s. I um have, ah you know, ah explored meditation. um of of course, exercise.
00:35:05
Speaker
i'm I'm actually reading Eric Topple's book, ah Super Agers, right now. um so Writing that down. Okay. but Well, yeah. Whatever Eric Topple says or talks about. He's on Substack, too.
00:35:20
Speaker
He's really good. But, um you know, Super Agers really... brings together um all the components of of healthy living. um And I've been somewhat of a geek about um about about health and about healthiness, but about healthiness for myself and for my community um that ah i I feel like has been um really an important thing of of having that journey um to come to kind of optimizing like daily life and, um you know, building ah large social network, um the care and feeding of of that social network.
00:36:07
Speaker
um The understanding of the interconnections between um eating, exercise, and sleep, um strength, stretching, and stamina, that the those things are, you know, over I think over the course of my life have become well more of my North Star of how I think about um how daily life should be lived.
00:36:36
Speaker
So that that's really, it's funny because I guess the other part that's funny is for all of us is that we always feel like we we sort of advocate for other people.
00:36:48
Speaker
um But but yeah part part of what I've always been had been a problem for me in public health as as a health educator is that it feels like um hypocritical sometimes um to ah advocate for things that we that we're telling other people to do that we don't do ourselves.
00:37:11
Speaker
and And so... I feel like I've, I've tried to become less of a hypocrite. Like if I can, if I can preach that someone should do something, i want to make sure that I do it, you know, ah every day and whether, but whatever, you know.
00:37:29
Speaker
And that you're modeling it Yeah, whatever my A1C is or how many reps I do or how many steps I do or whatever are are all kind of emblematic of um that you you want to make sure that you're walking the walk in the best way of being the best version of yourself.
00:37:51
Speaker
and And so a lot of that... I think I'm trying to come to answer your question, which is, I feel like I've tried to be able to um develop a practice for myself that can sustain me.
00:38:04
Speaker
um Well, of maybe, maybe for more decades. I don't know. ah But, um but it's, it, it's something I think that takes ah a lifetime to come to whether you call that wisdom or whatever,
00:38:19
Speaker
But um how we think about our own ah total worker health as workers ah it is is something that I feel like i I have a better sense about it now, um you know, both about how to do it, yeah but also how to well, share it, teach it, you know, train it, whatever. So, um you know, even having you ask me this question is making me sort of think about that in in a way that, you know,
00:38:48
Speaker
how How do we um best contribute to the the propagation of the species and our survival on this planet and all those kind of things? So yeah I actually do think about those things on a daily basis.
00:39:03
Speaker
i do I do too. I know you do. and and And it came it came later. ah came later as well. And I think that... yeah You know, and perhaps people who are listening and we're thinking about the hard things of our careers and our lives and, you know, the forces at play that are on the inside and the things that are on the outside. And you're like, um gee, you know, what are Jill and Chip talking about? I've got a fire over here, a fire over there, a fire over here.
00:39:33
Speaker
I feel like my pulse is in my throat. ah How could I possibly step out to even take that kind of break? and i and And I have a feeling, Chip, I mean, I believe this myself and I suspect you do too, that in order to even continue fighting those fires, you must step out and take a break for yourself.
00:39:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. ah yeah I feel like learning what it is that you can impact, um,
00:40:07
Speaker
yourself, oh the serenity prayer um is, is like so important. um And yeah, I, I, I feel like we've, we've learned so much um about how to operate as humans.
00:40:27
Speaker
ah and yeah pretty particular but And I'll say particularly in this century, you know, where ah the the pace it with which technological change has happened and what impact it's had on our brains um is is so critical.
00:40:47
Speaker
um And um I struggle with that every day. I mean, you know, I feel like um Alzheimer's, um dementia, um how how we do brain protection You know, might might be one of the biggest issues that we have and whether that has to do with um how you're conscious of your ah attention and intention um it in in the in in the moment um and how you sort of take care of that.
00:41:22
Speaker
capacity to um to be conscious are, you know, maybe one of the biggest challenges that we have. And that's not to not pay attention to um information overload, the digital divide, um you know, and and kind of what it's like to navigate um as a...
00:41:46
Speaker
as a um ah sort of analog digital person. You know, I, I, when I first, when first joined ah X, what did they, whatever, what did they call X? Whatever that was called back then. well Yeah. Something about birds. It was tweeting.
00:42:02
Speaker
I can't remember. yeah But, ah but my handle ah from back, you know, yours is digital chip. So I, that's a play on where that's funny. Yeah. That's always been, um you know, part of the fact that we,
00:42:18
Speaker
and And we offload so much of our brain into these devices, um yeah which is both good and bad, you know, so. Yeah, I mean, you're you're talking about balance, you know, yeah and yeah and the importance of ah finding that balance in order to stay in the fight, to stay in the fight like yeah being able to advocate for four people and for ourselves and the importance and the importance thereof.
00:42:45
Speaker
Do you recall... and I mean, maybe it wasn't a pivotal moment, or maybe it was for you. But do you recall when this light kind of came on? And you're like, I can't keep going at this speed. I've got to figure out this balance thing. do you Do you remember that? I mean, you said you had a stroke when you're 50. Was it then? Or was it before that? or when did this start for you?
00:43:07
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, that that was a big one. I've i i i had this i've had this weird situation. I'm a DES, diethylstibestrol baby, so um i I came into the 20th century with...
00:43:24
Speaker
um some stacked cards, uh, cause of some medical experiments that my mother was in. But, um, ah anyway, what, what it eventually led to, and I, our family said all kinds of health issues because of that. But, um, I, I have a, uh, uh,
00:43:41
Speaker
arterial septal defect. I have a hole in my heart. And so, uh, I, I never knew that until, um, until a clot went to my brain. I think so it was 54. But, um, yeah, that, that was a really, um, turning point, big event, wake up call, slap in the face, whatever uh, of understanding health and, um,
00:44:04
Speaker
I actually severed both my Achilles tendons at different parts of my life. Ouch. Chip. Yeah. Oh, but I can feel that. No, no, no.
00:44:14
Speaker
It's the worst feeling ever. ah But but but the the the point of the story is, ah you know, rehab, like learning how to walk. ah Well, I mean, ah learning learning again how to talk, ah learning how to write.
00:44:28
Speaker
ah You know, I feel like we all have to get to be really good at rehab and PT.
00:44:40
Speaker
as yeah ah But which is, we we I mean, the hardest part of what I think you're getting at is when you have these turning point events in your life where you're, um well, you face some problems personal disaster or whatever, whether it's a divorce or it's heart attack or it's cancer, you know, where... Been there, been there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not the heart attack.
00:45:05
Speaker
Yeah, so, you know, being able to have the emotional and physical tools to repair yourself in those moments is probably...
00:45:20
Speaker
ah what resilience needs to look like of taking ah and ah ah situation like that and being able to have emotional growth um and sort of the the plasticity of your brain and your you body to be able to um either you know evolve or learn from or take from that experience um some positivity even though you know it's like the worst day of your life you know and so i feel like that's what that's what my that's what i sort of remember my stroke being like uh for me um beautiful yeah beautiful chip how are you practicing resilience today what are like if someone's listening and they're like hmm
00:46:09
Speaker
huh Like what sort of ideas?
Daily Resilience Practices
00:46:11
Speaker
I mean, i will happily share what I do, but I'm interested to hear how you practice resilience. Well, ah you know, every day has to involve um difficult ah physical challenge and difficult mental emotional challenge.
00:46:29
Speaker
So what? Yeah. ah what what yeah what What that looks like is, you know, I'm so fortunate to have um ah my e-bike that's my, you know, one of my best friends ah that I converted to about two years ago. got up Yazelle from Amsterdam.
00:46:48
Speaker
So um I try to ah try to ride that every day if I can, you know, three to five miles. um I actually have my kayak up the hill, so I try to ah kayak a couple of times a week.
00:47:02
Speaker
Of course, I go to a gym. but But I feel like the harder part is the that the challenge of um of brain, the brain challenge.
00:47:14
Speaker
And so um I guess that's why... I like, for example, I'm in, I'm in a improv standup ah comedy class, acting class.
00:47:26
Speaker
I love this. So I, I, and and it's funny because I also feel like, you know, social interactions are so important. And over the last few years, I've actually um tried to focus on, I'm sorry to ah old people.
00:47:43
Speaker
I tried to focus on hanging out with young people And, um and, but then it's so funny it because doing this class, I've been with all these people who are like in my age group and, you know, they're okay. They're, you know, they're not so bad, you know, so ah I feel better about hanging out with my peer group, you know, they're, they're, maybe they're going to be okay.
00:48:02
Speaker
I don't know. So, so you're yes, go ahead. Yeah. So social interaction, of course, that's why I've been, ah deeply passionate into, um you know, I'm, I'm working with all these ah federal workers groups.
00:48:15
Speaker
um I'm actually still working with the worker training program. um I, I'm, I'm in the middle of these, I'm actually doing a, a large historical excavation of the brown lung, black lung movement, um,
00:48:33
Speaker
that I'm doing so ah which involves building archives from the 1960s 1970s of folks who are activists in the early occupational safety and health movement so um you know part part of it is the kind of how you actually structure each day ah to be able to um you know keep keep sharp and you know do all the right things and all that so don't know That's kind of how I've evolved.
00:49:04
Speaker
think And I call that my failed retirement. So that's a whole comedy routine. I won't go into it right now. Well, I mean, once you get your shtick down, you might have to come back to just try. Yeah, I'll just do improv. Yeah.
00:49:17
Speaker
To try to do the comedy routine. and And I hope what you all heard in Chip's description there it was balance. You know, the the things that you're doing for your mental, emotional, physical health and being able to step back into the gap and work on the projects that you're working on now, support the people that you're supporting now and at this profession that you've been at.
00:49:41
Speaker
yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah, I mean, and i you know, I want to credit you, Chip, for really kind of launching my interest in in resilience because of that time in 2020 and the launching pad that it took me on. My my personal practice...
00:50:00
Speaker
um you know i like Like I mentioned, I did my 500 hours of ah study of of ah yoga, which includes multiple sacred yogic texts and and the teachings thereof and breath of meditation. But I start every day by um um stretching and using my spine.
00:50:23
Speaker
i have i have arthritis and I come to my mat every day after I roll out of bed and And that's where I start. And like you, i get outside every day. Yes, I live in Minnesota, but I do get outside every day, including when it's 30 and 50 below, like it was this winter. And I have ah good for you.
00:50:43
Speaker
I have a friend that I walk with year round and she and I meet in the street, as we say. And, you know, we we walk hard for an hour and I have a daily meditation practice.
00:50:59
Speaker
Nice. I sit for a certain number of minutes, minutes that's, you know, minutes that are manageable for work life balance. And turns out my old my old kitty sits in my lap. So he meditates with me every day.
00:51:14
Speaker
which is pretty funny. I'm like, come on, Jack, it's time to meditate. And he'll come sit in my lap. um But yeah, I mean, engaging with the elements, you know, engaging with the elements is what's important to me, you know, with the earth and the wind and the air and the water. And those are the things that I find grounding and and build resilience to be able to jump back in and do the work that that needs to be done.
00:51:42
Speaker
Oh, that's beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. The connection to nature is really important for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And you do it too. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So I hope I, I, it'd be interesting to hear from listeners if they all have, if you all have um resilience practices as well, or maybe, maybe hearing this today is like, gosh, I got to start something.
00:52:06
Speaker
I got to start something and give yourself permission to, you know, jump off the, The treadmill. Yeah, the intensity. You don't have to get on treadmill. It's okay. Yeah, right. Yeah, jump jump off the intensity wheel with with work. The work is always going to be there.
00:52:21
Speaker
Yeah. The hard things are always going to be there. It's um yeah yeah having the resilience to keep at it for as long as Chip has successfully. Yeah. No, but I mean, the work-life balance thing, you know, just becomes more of a reality the longer that you are in your career.
00:52:37
Speaker
yeah And, yeah, I i don't, and, ah you know, how we actually can effectively communicate that to younger people so that they understand it at an earlier age than we did is probably one of the biggest challenges, you know.
00:52:55
Speaker
Right. It goes back to what you said before about just, you know, public health messaging and EHS messaging and all the things that we do and and that constant challenge of are we doing this well? Are we doing this right? are and And reiterating. yeah And i think that's I think that's where we're at in this moment, too.
00:53:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No, the, the time said a little piece in wellness this morning that was about judginess. So, you know, I find that's, that's really hard about, um how to communicate, um, without being judgy or that people take it that way.
00:53:30
Speaker
uh, I feel like that's really hard to figure out, um, or yeah i really is how you can make a point without saying it anything. Yeah.
00:53:41
Speaker
just being as opposed to saying. so yeah Yeah, coming at things not understanding, understanding rather that everyone has their own lived experience and their own. yeah yeah Yeah.
00:53:55
Speaker
so yeah So the messages about worker protection, environmental protection, um those are things that we as a profession need to think about how to communicate without without being perceived that we're being judgy.
00:54:13
Speaker
Uh, this is part of the nanny state. We're, we're telling, telling you that this, you need to do this for your own good. yeah ah you know, that, that, that, that sort of introspection that needs to happen within our profession, um, I think is, is a big one.
00:54:34
Speaker
Um, and you know, how,
00:54:39
Speaker
You know, unfortunately, how we have to participate in making America's health great again. ah yeah it we sure do.
Integrating Total Worker Health into EHS Practices
00:54:50
Speaker
yeah We sure do. And, you know, i think I think many of us are doing that work now. You know, the more the more I speak with professionals on this podcast and at conferences, the idea of total worker health in whatever in whatever way you want to call it um is is really being paid attention to by by our profession right now, or at least it seems like that to me.
00:55:20
Speaker
I'm hearing more and more of that. And I think that's excellent. Yeah. No, and I think the other ah fight or ah about approaches of the of the course of our careers that we've dealt with is behavior-based safety and how those words can be ah triggering to people um because they feel like somebody else is telling them what to do and somebody else knows what's best for them.
00:55:50
Speaker
Mm-hmm. ah All that might be true. And yes, um there there may be um important pieces of knowing what the best thing to do is.
00:56:03
Speaker
But if nobody will even listen to you even say that because of how you're saying it, um then maybe that's a problem. That's right.
00:56:16
Speaker
I can see the merit and in both approaches. But if at the end of the day, um you know people don't get healthier, hazards don't get reduced, workplaces don't get safer,
00:56:32
Speaker
um And, yeah, that's a, you know, here we are back to the basic health communication challenge. That's right.
00:56:43
Speaker
I think that's that's sort of wrapped up in this whole Make America Healthy Again movement is both... um You know, ironically, I think people want to feel like um they have control of their own health and they can decide what's best best for themselves.
00:57:02
Speaker
Who doesn't? Yeah. And I think that's a yeah's traditional American libertarian belief. And, ah you know, how are how environmental and occupational health professionals work.
00:57:18
Speaker
deal with that challenge is really what's, what's ahead of us. Yeah. yeah And how do we, how we apply, how we apply that science, the things that we've learned, the things that we know to be true um and, and share and teach that in a way that people see the good that's in it for, for themselves.
00:57:41
Speaker
Hopefully. Yeah. And what's helpful in healing. um Yeah. In that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Chip, this has hate to tell you, but like an hour has passed. I know, and now an hour has passed and we need to we need to wrap this up. And I am so grateful for all that you've taught me and for bringing this to our audience. Thank you today. yeah And for being um part of the seventh anniversary of the podcast.
00:58:11
Speaker
Yay! Happy birthday to you. Thank you And thank you all for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May our employees and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human well-being, which is the core of our practice.
00:58:28
Speaker
If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple podcast app, or any other podcast player you'd like. Or if you prefer to read the transcript and listen, you can do that at hsi.com.
00:58:41
Speaker
We'd live it love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more professionals like Chip and i Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer. And until next time, thanks for listening.