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123: Salary and Safety Budgets with a City Safety Manager
61 Plays5 hours ago
Many find OSHA inspectors to be intimidating, but this week's guest credits them for inspiring his true passion. Jill chats with Randy Milliron, safety manager for the city of Gillette, Wyoming, about starting his career in quality control before moving into a safety role. He talks about receiving mentorship from OSHA inspectors early on (to which he credits his success and longevity) and discusses the new types of challenges he faced when he joined the government sector, including salary negotiations and the daunting task of managing a tight budget. Plus, tune in to get a sneak peek into the book Randy is writing about his insights after 27 years in the safety industry. Enjoy this early dropped episode while traveling during the holiday week. Wishing all of our listeners a safe and happy holiday!
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Transcript
Introduction of Host and Guest
00:00:08
Speaker
This is the accidental safety pro brought to you by HSI. This episode is recorded December 19th, 2024. My name is Jill James, HSI's chief safety officer. And today our guest is Randy Milliron. Randy is safety manager for the city of Gillette. And Randy joins us today from Gillette, Wyoming.
Randy's Career Path: From Wyoming to Safety Manager
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome to the show, Randy. Oh, thanks for having me.
00:00:32
Speaker
<unk> Welcome. Hey, I think, I think you might be my first city of EHS professional on the accidental safety pro. So, um, congratulations, I guess on that, but more importantly, how does one be calmer? What was your path to work for a city? How did you, how'd you get this started?
00:00:54
Speaker
So ah my story is kind of different. I absolutely love your your podcast because the first time I heard heard one of your episodes, I was like, they are actually talking about my story. So I literally fell into safety. So I moved in 94. I moved out to Wyoming to take a job. My father-in-law ran a small electrical mechanical repair shop and he hired me to be a parts cleaner.
00:01:24
Speaker
So i I did that for about a year. And I had done that as a, when I was younger at my uncle's break shop. So it was kind of old news. It was just the equipment got bigger. Yeah. And so I had did that for about a year. I truck drive, painted parts, ah hauled parts to the mines and stuff. And then one of our largest vendors, actually out of Milwaukee, ah wanted to do a contract with our company, but they wanted somebody that was in quality control.
00:01:53
Speaker
okay So we had a full ah machine weld shop and they wanted somebody to make sure that our ah measuring instruments were calibrated to a set of standards. And I got called, I actually got called to the general manager's office. And he, the first thing he said to me was like, Randy, I i know, like your future is not working on the shop floor.
00:02:14
Speaker
And I kind of like kind of laughed. I was like, okay. And he goes, I see you in in the management side of the world. And I was like, okay, that sounds really exciting. And he said, well, here' here's the thing. We have this company that wants to wants us to create a quality control coordinator position and we think you're perfect for the job. And I mean, I'd worked there for less than a year. I'm like, how do you know I'm perfect for the job? And he said he actually told me, he said, well, cause you're cheap and you're good with a computer.
00:02:44
Speaker
So that's that's like a notch up then saying you have a pulse and we have a position. So that was good. So I felt like one rung up on the ladder. but So i i did I did that for about a year. And after a year, the general manager called me to his office again.
00:03:01
Speaker
And, uh, he said, Hey, I don't know if you know this, but the safety coordinators turned in her two weeks. yeah And I was wondering if you might be interested in, you know, in taking on that job. No, obviously you would spend, you know, 80% of your time in the quality control lab and 20%, you'd be doing, you know, safety inspections and reports and stuff. And, and I remember to mean to like it was just yesterday, but I asked him only one question and I said, well, does it come with a raise?
00:03:29
Speaker
and said And he said, yes. He goes, yeah, we'll give you a raise. And I think I decided at
Learning Safety through OSHA: Education and Relationships
00:03:34
Speaker
that moment that, okay, I'm and early in my career, and money was a big driver. So i yeah I asked if I could have some time to talk it over with with my girlfriend at the time, now wife.
00:03:45
Speaker
And i mean I knew right then that's what I wanted to do. So after about six months of being in the safety office and never stepping foot in the quality control lab, I i kind of realized quickly that I may have bit off more than I could chew.
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah, I was just going to say that 80-20 thing was like, hmm, that was a general manager who didn't quite understand safety. No, yeah you guys just do reports and do inspections. You know, you'll be fine. Right. Oh my gosh. Okay. So you bit off more than you can chew and you had to teach yourself how to do this job. So how did that, how did you do that?
00:04:22
Speaker
I was very fortunate actually because our our organization had partnered with our state-run OSHA program i I want to say a year before so we were enrolled in our state program called EvTap so employee volunteer technical assistance program ah and so what that meant is every year we had three inspectors would come to our site you know, go through our programs, do inspections of our shop and yeah basically give us citations that we had to fix. And I really credit my journey ah to those three individuals, our technical assistant advisors, because ah every every year the ah the OSHA group would actually host
00:05:06
Speaker
Uh, these three day, they were called collateral duty classes and they were free. So you went for
Transition to Mining: Challenges and Achievements
00:05:12
Speaker
three days and you were immersed in the regulations. And, uh, I w I went to the first one with the general manager and I, and, uh, I just was blown away by, you know, how many regulations applied to our organization. And I loved the, I loved the teaching aspect of that class. So I think I attended three of those over the course of like two years.
00:05:34
Speaker
And I think it was the second or third one. ah You know, you travel to these places across Wyoming and, you know, instead of eating a loan, the inspectors would, you know, hey, do you want to come, you know, have dinner with us? You know, of course we can't, you know, pay for yours and you can't pay for ours. Right, right. but But that was the start of this wonderful friendship that I created with those inspectors. and And I looked at inspectors, I mean, I carried that same philosophy through my whole career, which is both of us have a job to do. and They really wanted to take me under their wing. You know, hey, have you ever thought about, you know, being an ocean specter, you know, you're not going to be rich, you know, in this job, but you know, the retirement and I was starting a new thing. Yeah, I was I was starting a new family. And I just I just couldn't see it. Plus, it was it was a ah pretty big
00:06:24
Speaker
pay cut even, you know, ah only having a couple of years in safety. So yeah, I, I, I cherish that relationship that I had with it. And really I, I worked with those, uh, those three individuals, those three inspectors for, uh, the nine years that I spent at that company. So we, we actually graduated from, uh, from Evtap. And then we went into the federal program sharp <unk> and we were, we were at that level until I left and in 2006.
00:06:52
Speaker
That's fantastic. And remind me again, what was that industry you were working in? it's I just call it general industry. I mean, we were a small ah repair facility that serviced the oil field and coal mines.
00:07:03
Speaker
Yeah. Got it. Got it. Okay. All right. So then what happened? What happened next? And why did, and what made you switch? Well, it was, it was interesting because the general manager, again, he was a really close personal friend of mine. Yeah. And he had, he'd called me to his office and I think it was around, you know, performance evaluation time.
00:07:24
Speaker
And he he sat me down and he said, Randy, I'm going to give you some hard truth. And he said, but you will never make the salary that you deserve working here. He said, you know, they are literally going to three three and a half percent you, you know, cost of living wages ye or raises for your career. So unless you go get a degree,
00:07:46
Speaker
Yeah. That's about the only way you're going to see a real big pay hike. And so I was feeling kind of dejected like, Oh gosh, I chose this career. And now, you know, I've hit the ceiling already. Gosh, I've only been in for nine years. And, and I said, well, gosh, what is my next step? And he said, well, you really need to go to the coal mines.
00:08:05
Speaker
And of course, my first indication was, well, I don't want to operate equipment. I i that don't see that in my future because I knew they do make quite a bit of money, but he said, no, in safety. And I said, well, the the issue with safety in the Powder River Basin with the 10 or 12 mines that we have here, ah it It sounds kind of callous when I say this, but somebody needs needs to either die or retire before those positions become available. Yeah. And so I remember it was ah in the fall or actually summer of 2006.
00:08:40
Speaker
a position had come open for an analyst position at a local mine, and I put in for it. I remember we we delayed our vacation so I could do the interview. I did the interview, thought the interview went really, really well, and then went on vacation, never heard anything back from that company, and it was about a two months later that I remember I saw one of the emails from that, the manager of that, the safety manager for that coal mine. And I i felt kind of, I guess, dejected. So I was in feeling kind of confident, not cocky. you and i So i I wrote back, I just basically replied to replied to his email and asked, hey, did you guys ever find a you know a person for this position? yeah And he he
Mine Rescue Competitions: Training and Triumphs
00:09:25
Speaker
instantly replied and said, no, we didn't. Are you still interested?
00:09:29
Speaker
And i I said, yeah, of course I'm interested. So he said, ah he called, he said, can I give you a call? And he called me and he said, do you have a degree? And I said, no, I don't have a degree. And he said, well, ah Peabody Energy is really, really interested in having people that have degrees, ah you know, in in moving into safety positions. I said, no, I don't, but you know, I'll, I can get one if, you know, if if that's what I need to do. And he said, no,
00:09:54
Speaker
He goes, let let me let me talk to corporate and corporate allowed me to come in at the analyst position and not a supervisor position. So ah in in the fall of 2006, I started my 10 year career ah working in the surface coal mines for three different coal mines over that 10 years.
00:10:12
Speaker
Wow. Wow. And Randy, what did you do with your education since that seemed to be a key driver? Well, it was, it was interesting because when I talked to, uh, you know, you go to your performance evaluation and you still, I was really driven by, you know, the bottom dollar at that time and, uh, wanting to find out what I need to do to, you know, make more money. And he said, well, in order to get the safety supervisor position, you either need to do one of two things.
00:10:39
Speaker
you need neither, you either need to get certified. ah So safety certification of some sorts, or you need to get a degree. And at that time, they were I mean, even if it was a degree, but even an AA, so he bought he offered a great tuition reimbursement ah program. So I want to say it was 2010. I jumped on that wagon and I did both. I actually got my certified mine safety professional at the same time I was going to night school him ah to get my AAS in mining technology. And so in 2018, or not 2018, in 2012, I was able to achieve both of those ah those requirements that allowed me to to move into the supervisor position. Congratulations.
00:11:28
Speaker
Yeah, it was pretty exciting. yeah the The crazy part about finding out is we were on a bus heading to Elko, Nevada for one of our mine rescue competitions. Everybody on the bus is asleep because we have to leave Gillette at like four in the morning. ah well And I remember my my wife texted me and asked me if she could call me and I was like thinking, Oh my gosh, is this, you know, what's going on? And yeah. And she said, no, I have your letter here on my safety certification. And so of course I you know called her and i'm I'm alone, literally everyone on the bus is asleep. And she tells me, she do you want me to open it? And I'm like, well, heck yes, open that thing up. And so she opened it and she's she starts crying and says,
Role in Gillette City: Impact and Opportunities
00:12:11
Speaker
well, congratulations, you've you've earned your certification. And I had no one to celebrate with for like two hours. but
00:12:18
Speaker
but but But no, it was it was really exciting and and a very important point in my life and and obviously in my career. Oh, that's wonderful. Hey, and I heard you say you were on your way to a mine rescue competition. What happens at one of those? Oh gosh. Uh, so that was probably one of my most favorite memories of working at the mines. I was able to, uh, lead or co-facilitate our mine rescue, uh, teams at the three mines I worked for. and And what it really looks like is a mine rescue, like when I worked at Cabayo, for instance, you have 12 months of training.
00:12:54
Speaker
So every month you're getting you know eight hours of training, ah whether it's fire, medical, rope rescue, ah those kinds of things. Well, a competition is three days of practical skill stations and scenario-based stations.
00:13:12
Speaker
And I remember my first year, so I started in 2006 and I really kind of introduced myself to the team. I only had a couple months to kind of get to know the team before the next, the new year started. And I remember talking to some of the captains and co-captains and I had been around mine rescue competitions before because in Gillette we actually hosted the international surface mine rescue competition. well And so I got with the captains and we were building like the perfect team. So it's an eight person team, 17 members and one alternate. And I remember taking that list to my my safety manager at Cabayo.
00:13:52
Speaker
and handed them the list and I said, hey man, this this is the team that really the captains and I really think is gonna do really well at the competition. And he hands the list back to me, he goes, no, it's not that list isn't gonna be good enough. and And so I was kind of dejected and I said, what's what's wrong with the list? He goes, your name's not on it.
00:14:12
Speaker
I was like, I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hey, I haven't even had my, my basic emergency care training, you know, 48 hour training. And you want to throw me on the competition team? And he said, no better way to learn than trial by fire. And so that started ah my very first competition season. ah So if a normal rescuer gets 12 months
Budgeting and Compensation in Government
00:14:32
Speaker
of training, a competition team member gets 14 additional training days where we prepare for a competition. So going through all the practical textbooks, ah learning knots, learning different patient assessment techniques, and then then literally the trainer is taking us through mind related scenarios for ah for during those 14 additional training days. yeah And then a competition, the first day is what we call fun day.
00:15:02
Speaker
which is they intermingle a bunch of team members so you have like let's say all the ones so you're numbered one through seven yeah so all the ones you're going to go in this group and you're going to be a team and all the twos and and so that's kind of fun you do a lot of like uh A lot of fun little stations like trying to catch water balloons with bunker gear. It's just ah catching eggs at a distance. And well, then that's really to get you over the nerves because the very next day you have like four hours of practical stations that you go through as a team.
00:15:36
Speaker
Well, and so I was really excited to and but obviously very, very nervous because I was the I felt I was the weakest link on the team. I didn't have much experience. And then the last day is you are all 14 teams are held in lockup and you get called out by the based on how you scored the first day. yeah So if you're the last place team, you go out first. And so first meaning you're in lockup at five in the morning. So you may hit the ground, the training ground at seven when they usually start. So you're in lockup for a couple hours and just nerves and anxiety. And and then you go through your final 30 minute mind rescue scenario with your team.
00:16:21
Speaker
And then after all the scores are tabulated, then of course youre we have an awards banquet. And I was very excited to say that my very first year ah in Elko, they have an A flight and B flight. So the top seven teams go to A flight and the bottom seven go to B flight. And so we actually ended up taking third in B flight. And it was the first time that Cabayo had ever, ah that has ever won a trophy in, gosh, I want to say five years. So it was exciting to be a part of that team. Oh, that's awesome. I had no idea those sort of things um happened. that's That's exciting. I worked for the Department of Transportation when I was first, first, first starting out in safety, and they had snowplow rodeos in Minnesota.
00:17:06
Speaker
um at the beginning of every season. so and not you know Similar to what you're talking about, you know like the real critical ah real critical work to make sure that people are going to stay safe. That's wonderful. That's a fun story. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks for sharing that. Good times. What happened after after mining? Did you stay in mining or what was your next stop?
00:17:30
Speaker
So i I was in, I was actually in mining. So I spent about seven years at Cabayo and then I was forced transferred to our sister mine, which was about an hour and 15 minutes away from Gillette. yeah And i i I worked down there for about 14 months and then a really good friend of mine who worked at, she was the safety manager of two of the coal mines that were really close to Gillette.
00:17:56
Speaker
I had heard through the grapevine that I was actually doing annual refresher training ah for Peabody. And ah one of the people in the class, we were at break or something and he said, Hey, did you hear that so and so left the Alpha mine and went to work at the power plant? And I said, you know, no, no, I didn't, I didn't really think anything like why this person was telling me this. and So I remember I was on break, we were all on break eating lunch and stuff and then it dawned on me. I said, wait, if she went from the Alpha mine to the power plant, that means there might be a position open at Alpha. So I i ended up texting ah my friend and said, Hey, I was wondering, I heard through the grapevine that you might be looking for
00:18:37
Speaker
a safety supervisor. And she texts me back almost immediately. Yes, I am. Are you interested? And I said, Yeah, let's let's talk. So ah I ended up putting in for that mine. And then I worked there for almost two years. And then a really good friend of mine had reached out to me and asked if I was putting in for the job of safety manager for the city of Gillette.
00:19:01
Speaker
And instantly I, I, I texted him back and said, what like, what, like a snowplow operator, a wastewater, I'm like, what are you talking about? You sort of have this theme, Randy, where you think whenever someone taps you on the shoulder, that it's, that it's taking you into a labor job when your first mentor told you that, Oh no, you're a leader.
00:19:21
Speaker
Yeah, that's not, that's not meant for you. So he said, no, that he said, no, there's a safety manager position open. And so I, I kind of challenged him and said, okay, well, give me all the information, you know, the requirements and, and so pay pay scale and different, you know, all the benefits package. And yeah so he sent that to me and and I kind of reviewed it and, uh, reviewed it with my wife and we were kind of talking about it. And the salary range was, was somewhat similar to what I was, was making at the coal mines.
00:19:48
Speaker
And so I remember texting my friend and saying, uh, I really am interested in in putting in for this position. And he said, well, okay, I'm, then I'm not going to put in for it. oh And I said, so why are you not going to put in for it? He goes, cause the last two jobs that we have both put in for you.
00:20:07
Speaker
actually got the job and I did not. So so I told them, I said, no, hey, you need to keep your interview skills up and you really need to try this. And so they ended up interviewing, I think 10 people for the job. And i had I had been on the recruiting team for Peabody Energy for the eight years that I worked there. So we would go to the South Dakota School of Mines to interview interns to hire them for the summer got to work on our mines. And so I kind of knew a lot about group interviews and and intimidation through interviews and so when I came to work or came for my interview at the city ah they have you sit at this little round table fill out some paperwork and then the door opens and they're oh Randy we're ready for you and all these people I walked back there and there is like 12 people around this table oh shoot yeah and so instantly I realized oh wait they're trying to intimidate me I don't intimidate very easily so let's go
00:21:01
Speaker
So I remember the interview. It was so exciting because I had never, I'd never thought about working for the government. I mean, a long time ago thinking about working for OSHA, but right this is city government. So yeah ah I didn't have, I didn't have and a lot of working knowledge. So I asked a lot of questions, you know, during the interview, obviously they asked me a lot of questions. And then it comes to that end of the interview, Jill, where they say, well, Randy, do you have any questions for us?
00:21:25
Speaker
yep And knowing the game, I opened up my padfolio and I had probably 20 questions that I had already pre-written out. And so I kind of went over the list and I started you know asking some of the questions. But one of the ones that I asked, I asked directly of the HR director and I really liked to use, not really manipulate, but I liked to play on words. So i said I said to him, I said, so when I get the job, you're going to be my boss, correct?
00:21:51
Speaker
And he says, he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll be your boss. I'm like, Oh, I already got this tip up. All right, cool interview over. But no, I asked him, I said, Okay, so I go looking back on so I was interviewing at the end of 2015. And so I said, and you know, can you tell me in the last year, how many incidents, you know, the city has had?
00:22:10
Speaker
And he sheepishly looked at the HR specialist sitting next to him. And he's like, Yeah, I i really have no idea. and my home Oh, okay. So I wrote that down on my list.
Leadership Development Passion: Teaching and Mentoring
00:22:20
Speaker
And, and then I looked at the HR specialist and I said, Hey, so you're in charge of workers comp, correct? And she said, Yes, yes, I am. And I said, Well, can you tell me how many active open cases you're, you know, you're working right now?
00:22:32
Speaker
And she kind of looks at the HR director and kind of shrugs her shoulders and says, I'm maybe 10. Like, okay, sounds good. and I write that down. And I go through my questions, I close my portfolio, and that's all that's all the questions I have. And so the HR director asked me, he goes, why the follow up question? And he said, ah you know, about the question that you asked both of us, you know, why were you interested in knowing how many incidents or, you know, workers comp cases that, you know, we have open? And I said, well,
00:23:00
Speaker
like I operate, I'm the safety supervisor for two mines. One mine has 450 employees. The other mine has 380. I have 40 members on my rescue team at one mine and I have 30 on the other. I said, i could I could tell you based on each mine, how many MSHA inspection days they've had. I could tell you which crew has gone the longest without a ah lost time accident or even a ah preventable incident.
00:23:26
Speaker
I could tell you how many active open cases I have through workers comp at both mines because it's my job. ah he And he goes, Oh, that's, that's really, that's good. That's a good answer. And so I got done with the interview, Jill, and I had to tell myself when I exited city hall to walk to my vehicle because I was so excited.
00:23:48
Speaker
yeah I had never felt this passion in my life that I had never wanted a job more in my life. So yeah I walked slowly to my truck. I got in the truck and literally drove a block away, parked and called my wife and said, we have to pray about this. I've never wanted a job more in my life. And she said, why is that? I go, because they don't know what they don't know.
00:24:11
Speaker
Yeah. There's so much low hanging fruit where I can make an instant impact. So yeah ah that that was really how I got started with the city. That's awesome. That's awesome. And how long have you been there? In January it' will be my ninth year.
00:24:25
Speaker
Wonderful. Oh my gosh, that's so fun. Hey, so since you are our first city of, do you mind if I ask a couple of questions about local government? Yeah, go ahead. You know, when you were in that interview and you were asking a lot of questions, one of the things that I know that's different in working in government, you know, local state or federal is that budgeting is done differently and just the way that, you know,
00:24:52
Speaker
fund It's fund accounting versus cost accounting. What has that been like for you when you need to um ask for an investment? Like, how does that work? it Oh, Jill, I'm glad you asked that question because it is probably one of the strangest things I've ever had to experience in my career. You know, at the coal mines, I remember my boss would come to me, you know, at the end of the year and he said, Hey, just tell you what, I'm just going to add 10% to your budget for next year.
00:25:22
Speaker
And I would say, okay, sounds great because we were really, we're never capped by a budget. I had never, you know, had been called to my boss's office to tell me that I went over budget. Cause it just never, the the budgets we had there were just so huge. I mean, if you wanted to create a project, there was money available. Well, yeah when I came to the city, uh, I remember, so I start in January, like I told you, and then in February, I get this calendar invite to the HR directors ah and into his or to his office. And the title is budget review. And I'm like, Oh, okay, this is cool. All right. So I go to this meeting. And so I remember asking the ah HR director at the time, I said, So is there any, you know, anything I need to prepare for, you know, this meeting? And he said, No, it's pretty much just a formality. But you know, I kind of want to review your budget with you. And I'm like, Oh, okay, sounds good. And
00:26:12
Speaker
So at the time in 2016, in our area, ah we were actually going through a budget recession. So you do I had actually ah probably started to probably not the best time, but so I remember sitting down with ah the HR director and he said, and he slides this, you know, this packet of paper across the table and he said, he goes, here's your budget. Do you have any questions?
00:26:36
Speaker
And I was like, I haven't even looked at this. I'm like, what? So I'm quickly fanning through, you know, these 11 pages and realize that my budget, 80% of my budget was my salary.
00:26:48
Speaker
Oh yeah. And I'm like, uh, and the 20% was, was rather small and there was a huge account. There was a huge account called employee recognition. And when I saw the dollar signs in it, I'm like, I was thinking of, oh, these are great things that I can do. And he's, and he literally reaches across the table and he said, yeah, we're, we're going to go ahead and zero that out.
00:27:09
Speaker
He goes, I don't know if you realize this, but as a community and in our state, we're kind of in a budget recession. So we're looking to try to cut costs. So this is, but you know, that pretend this isn't there. yeah Well, when you see that large number and you're like, you're already thinking about, it's like Christmas in January. Hey, there's great things. i can do and so I started thumbing through the rest of the budget and I realized my budget comprised of yes my salary it ah also included annual fire extinguisher inspection ah AED
00:27:42
Speaker
ah servicing batteries, replacement pads, and audiograms. And and and then they had this miscellaneous, they called it safety supplies, which was not a very large number at all. And I didn't know, you know, what I didn't know about budgets and in the city. And I was like, oh, okay.
00:28:03
Speaker
You know, thinking that if something comes around, you know, down the line, you know, I could just go to my boss and ask for more money. Yeah. and Not realizing that's not how it works in government. Whatever's in the budget, you have to stay inside those parameters. So yeah. And you can't, but you can't, I always think about that fund accounting like buckets, right? So like, yeah.
00:28:22
Speaker
you know, maybe five buckets of of money, but you can't pour, you know, the money into from one bucket to another bucket when you need help, because it's yeah just not it's not allowed. So when your bucket is dry. well He told me right up front, he said, okay, he showed me the bottom line. yeah And he said, as long as, so it showed a 25% reduction in my overall budget, 25 or 35%.
00:28:48
Speaker
And he said, okay, this new number for this next fiscal year, starting July 1 of 2016, this is the number you cannot go over. You can't even get close to this number. And I was just like, oh my gosh. Knowing that, like I said, 70 to 80% of that number was my salary.
00:29:07
Speaker
yeah Like, oh, this, this is not going to be fun. So it was interesting because like a new hire training, when I would, when I would get to the point of telling, you know, what the safety person does at the city. And we got to this, this line item that I had on a presentation that said about financial support.
00:29:25
Speaker
And so I laughed at every time I come to that line because I usually just pass over it because they really don't know ah what I'm talking about. but But what I say is when when when I worked at the coal mines, basically, if if we wanted something done,
00:29:43
Speaker
I always thought of the safety division as a savings account. So pay me upfront in tools and PPE and equipment and programs and training, or you can pay me on the backside in equipment damage or workers comp medical expenses.
Writing a Leadership Book: Lessons and Experiences
00:30:00
Speaker
So I always thought of the safety vision as this as a savings account. well and And what we would say is every dollar that you don't spend in either equipment damage or medical expenses, in general industry that's called profit. That's that's money you don't have to spend. yep So if you're doing the right proactive things upfront, you actually are a direct contributor to the profit line. Well at the city, it's not for profit. So what what I basically have to say is,
00:30:30
Speaker
ah Any, any dollar that isn't spent in equipment damage or medical expenses, that's money the city can spend elsewhere. Yeah. It's just a huge different thing. And, and, and talking about budgets, it was, it's like my least favorite. There's, there's two seasons that I have, well, maybe three seasons that I have at the city.
00:30:49
Speaker
And one is our summer seasonal ah season where we have these seasonals that we hire and they usually have incidents and they were of the largest incident. and Division, I would say before I started here at the city.
00:31:05
Speaker
um the The second one would be winter season, because as you know, ah living in Minnesota, our winter can start as early as September and go as late as May. So you're you're under, you know, for up to six months. But my least favorite session or season is budget.
00:31:22
Speaker
It starts in January and you have all these mini meetings Really going over your budget because the weird thing which it kind of is a little shocking as well So you have your initial meeting with your hr director then you have the your next meeting is with the ah hr director and the city administrator and the finance director And they go over your budget And so if there's something that you really want to do in next fiscal year You get it in the budget and that's where this kind of uh I, it's almost like a game. Like you ask for more than you really need because you know, they're going to cut. Yeah. So you go through that session. And then the very next session is you present that budget to city council and the mayor.
00:32:06
Speaker
Yeah. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And so have you been able, have you done that or is the administrator doing that? No, no. What happens is the administrator calls up the director and the director has the safety manager come up and present his budget to the council. Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, the expert. That's good. Yeah. And so I would sit at the table with the HR director and he would kind of go through our budget, but then he would always defer to me if there was a question from either a city council member or or the mayor so it was very stressful and then even after that meeting you don't know what your budget is going to be until july 1st so july 1st the budget comes out and you get to quickly look and go oh that got cut or oh that funding got cut or that travel budget got cut oh man that
00:32:57
Speaker
All right, well, this is what I've got to work with. So ah so that's really how the budget system works. Yeah. I mean, this is really good, Randy, for anyone listening who's who's thinking about working in government. I mean, these are good, eyes wide open things to know. yeah It's not that you can't do the job, it's just done um differently than it's done in in the private sector.
00:33:20
Speaker
Well, and it's interesting because like we talk about, I talked about the, the pay scale and the, uh, the benefits. So what I didn't realize before joining the city is so they, so let's say your, your salary range is, you know, A to B. So you have your floor and your ceiling and they have this thing that they love to
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:33:40
Speaker
use. It's called midpoint. So they typically do not hire anyone.
00:33:45
Speaker
above midpoint. So I came to the city with ah what, 14, 15 years in safety. yeah And ah that didn't really matter when it came to salary negotiation. when When the HR director called and offered me the job, he told me the salary range. I literally had to take a breath.
00:34:04
Speaker
And he said, is there, is there something wrong with, with the salary? And I said, well, it's, it's considerably lower than I am currently making now. And I really need to discuss this with my wife. And, uh, can you give me some time, you know, to, to talk about it with my wife? And he said, yeah, no problem. We'll, you know, give you till this is great. We'll give you till Friday end of day. Yeah. I think it was Tuesday. so so i And I asked him, I go, so how flexible are you in that in that starting salary? And he goes, well, we have you know some wiggle room. And I'm like, OK. Went home, talked to the wife, and she's our accountant. And so it was it was originally going to be a $30,000 pay cut.
00:34:48
Speaker
Ooh. And so that was, that was going to be kind of hard. And so, so we basically, my wife and I negotiated that, Hey, if we went to only $20,000, you know, that that's, that's manageable. Uh, but we can probably make that work. And what really decided the really made me decide to go with that number was.
00:35:10
Speaker
in my first year of working for the city, and this is where they blow you away with benefits, is they were going to contribute $13,000 to my retirement and I wasn't going to pay a dime. yeah They cover not only the employers, but they cover the employees expense. so yeah And i so I'm talking to my wife and I go, really, we're we're haggling over $7,000. I'm like, $7,000 to try something new in ah in ah in a an area of safety I've never worked before that I'm super excited about. Let's do it. So I remember calling him back like I waited. I just wanted to wait him out. So 4.45 I think was the latest I could do on Friday. And I called him and obviously he answered on the first ring and and I told him who I was and he said, yeah, Randy, what can I do for you? And so I said, Hey, I was wondering if you would be interested in, in paying me this salary. And he said, yep, no problem. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I went too low.
00:36:03
Speaker
so Like, oh, he he answered yes too fast. So there was probably wiggle room. But so and that's the thing that a lot of people probably don't understand in working for government and especially city municipality is ah they are not going to pay you the salary that you think you or you might be able to get in a different industry, but they blow you away with benefits.
00:36:25
Speaker
ah We have this thing at the city. It's called total compensation. So it's not just factoring your your salary But all the benefits you get with it and every time you look at that number you're like, oh I am totally happy where I am ah And that's the thing that I really realized Jill when when in moving to this position I had literally left the old person behind that was chasing after that dollar I just I just wanted to be in a place where I'm happy I could do what I want to do and I still have passion about my job and that's what I have here at the city Yeah, yeah. i think um I think the things that you've been talking about, Randy, are so helpful um to people who are listening. to you know you you You may not know that you've been dropping information about how to ask for money and how to ask for a raise. And it's a question it's ah it's a question um that people ask me often. is you know How do you do it? What did you say? what are the And you've been giving those kind of tips, so I really appreciate that.
00:37:24
Speaker
Yeah. so i'm always It's always good to go higher than you expect. Yeah. Because they can always knock it down. And to ask. And to ask. Yep, definitely. I know that um and all that you want to talk about leadership and I'm wondering if we can if we can start talking about that because I know that's one of your one of your passions.
00:37:47
Speaker
Um, and I don't know if the place to start is talking about the fact that you had identified yourself as a safety introvert. Oh yeah. Is that the, is that the place to start talking about leadership or what? That would be a good segue. Okay. So, uh, back w back in my early days when, uh,
00:38:08
Speaker
when i was When I got promoted into the safety position, so I worked for a, this can sound funny, a high performing dysfunctional team. So our so our the business I worked at, we had five locations, five shops in the in the in the Western United States, and ours was always the most profitable.
00:38:28
Speaker
We blew every other shop out of the water when it came to profit. Yeah. well But the the issue was we couldn't get along. So our general manager had recognized that, you know, something needed to be done. So they hired a trainer from Zoe training to come in and literally teach us how to be a better team. And so I really kind of got bit by the leadership bug early on. A lot of the concepts that our trainer would teach us.
00:38:58
Speaker
I was like like jumping out of my skin going, we've needed this for months. Oh my gosh, this is so so good. And so in in those nine years that I spent under ah that Zoey trainer, initially he came like, I think once a month for you know six months.
00:39:18
Speaker
and yeah And then ah he branched it out to coming up every once so like once a quarter. But he would always have some some new leadership concept. And it was at that same time that i i I attended a John C. Maxwell simulcast, and I literally had found my my mentor for life.
00:39:39
Speaker
I would never get the chance to meet this man. Maybe I will tell my bucket list, but I really liked leadership development and I really saw what an impact it made on our team. So we had a team of 15 that were in management that by the time we got through the training, you were, you were physically able to call someone out about something that they were doing that you learned in training and the person wouldn't take offense to it. Of course.
00:40:04
Speaker
They were, oh my gosh, you know, you're coming at me like a child and I'm, you're trying to get me to go to child and I'm going to stay adult. And so it was, it was the communication was just, it was so amazing. So that was through the Maxwell training.
00:40:16
Speaker
Yeah, so through the Maxwell training and our our Zoe quarterly training. And then when I transitioned to the mine, I remember when when the ah the safety manager had told me, so I'm starting in October and he said, oh, by the way, one thing that wasn't really on the job requirements or ah your job skills is you actually have to run the mine rescue team.
00:40:36
Speaker
And, and at that time I was maybe certified first aid, you know, through either American heart or national safety council. I can't remember what, maybe it was medic first aid, but that's an HSI company. Thanks for that. yeah Good plug.
00:40:51
Speaker
but yeah so i So so i had that's that's the only experience I had. And I had participated and volunteered at our local mine rescue competitions for the previous three years. Matter of fact, the year leading up to that, we held the final day on our on property that we owned. ah And so I got to actually experience you know all the all the anxiety and all the stress and stuff. So yeah instantly, I'm a little panicky. So really being an introvert in safety, I used to call myself the safety wallflower.
00:41:21
Speaker
So I would attend conferences and just just go to my sessions and then and then go to the expo and may talk to some people and just go to my room. I just didn't think that I had anything really to offer. and So when I went to the mines, now I'm going to have to lead this team. So I said, okay, coming out of the nine years of leadership development that I had,
00:41:41
Speaker
I told the safety manager, I really need to observe you know what what I'm walking into. And he said, well, that's great. He said, you know the first training is this Thursday. ah why don't we Why don't we start there? You can you know observe the training. you know Your co-trainer will you know introduce you to the team. And you'll have three months to kind of see how everything works. And then you know you can you know come up with a plan. And so that that was my I was basically going in as a consultant. so In my very first training, I will never forget it. We started off and there were like donuts or muffins or something, and a lot of hunting stories and typical guys and gal stuff here in Wyoming. and And I remember we started the training and and you know the trainer goes the but crew trainer you know opened up the medical book and said, okay, so today we're going to talk about fractures and dislocations.
00:42:32
Speaker
And he starts to read the book. Oh, I'm in the back wanting to come out of my skin. I'm like, please and I looked at Carl, my co-trainer, I said, please tell me this isn't like the normal thing that we do. He goes, Oh yeah, we always start off with medical, you know, the first hour. I'm like, whoa. Okay. So I observed for the first, uh, first two months. So i'm I observed in October and November, we, we usually took December off.
00:42:56
Speaker
And I called a meeting with the captains and co captains from all four crews. And I had, I had already started working on a plan. And my plan was to create this leadership development team and teach them the soft skills that they need to be a better leader of their crew.
00:43:14
Speaker
And, and I, and I've kind of, I, I pitched this literally. I pitched this to, uh, to our, our, our mine rescue captains, co-captains. Now you have to understand some of these guys have been coal mining for 15 to 20 years. So I literally had to teach them how to speak Manajeez.
00:43:33
Speaker
So, so when they're talking to a manager, you, you need to talk and use the buzzwords that piqued the interest of managers at, in you know, in our organization. So I taught them, you know, return on investment, those the just kind of little cliche buzzwords. But yeah I really told them, instead of going up and asking for, Hey, we need this amount of money to increase our training and and make our training better. We need to show them the reasons why we need that money before we ever asked for the money. I said, because once you, once we have the meeting before the meeting, we're going to be so prepared before we sit down with those mind managers, that by the end of the day, they're going to be shaking our hands and thanking us for doing this. who And so the whole month of December, I think we had a couple meetings that December, and literally preparing them for this meeting we were having with the mind manager, production manager, maintenance manager and the safety manager and the HR manager.
00:44:31
Speaker
yeah And literally some of these people like had not had a haircut in months, shaved their beards. I mean, they they got they cleaned up well. And and we and we presented this, in and i i I was actually the person that started it, but I really defaulted to the team.
00:44:53
Speaker
Anytime there was a question about the plan, I wanted them to know the plan, my plan, like the back of their hand so they could talk about it. So I didn't want to have a meeting where Randy talked for an hour. yeah I wanted to do an intro at 10, 15 minutes and let the eight captains and co-captains sell the plan.
00:45:13
Speaker
And by the end of it Everybody was on board They they were so excited about where the rescue team was going in that next year And we walked out of the meeting and I remember just like walking to my truck when I got the interview at the city I told them let's walk over to my trailer Let's just walk over there. And then we got the trailer and we got to celebrate. So they were like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe they bought into that. That was so awesome. and but So so fun I saw something in them. Well, actually I should say I saw something in myself that I had the skillset and the knowledge to give them the soft skills that made those conversations so much easier.
00:45:52
Speaker
either with their crew members or if they are talking to a high level manager at the mine, they don't have to feel inferior because they will have the soft skills in how to actively listen and carry on a conversation and get their point across and not get into an argument or disagreement. So I did that for ah for all the seven or eight years that I worked.
00:46:13
Speaker
ah for cabao And the interesting thing about it was management picked up on the fact that what we were doing, because they ended up promoting a lot of our captains and co-captains into supervisor positions. So they were using our rescue team as a talent pool for their future supervisors. And that just made me glow because it meant what we were doing was was what what really the mind needed.
00:46:37
Speaker
That's a great legacy. Yeah, it was. When you're working with people um and you were working with those individuals and who the people you're working with now, what do you think some of those attributes are that makes a good leader or manager? Oh, gosh. That's a great question. I mean, I have to start off with active listening.
00:47:00
Speaker
if if If you have a conversation with someone, and and it was told to me, or learned this a long time ago, and I was highly guilty of these two things, finishing other people's statements ah here and listening to reply instead of actively listening.
00:47:17
Speaker
So I remember early in my career, my general manager, we were having a conversation about a gas monitor. I was wanting to buy or something. And he he gave me a phrase that I still use to this day. He said, right now I'm going to teach you concept. He said, when you bring something to me, you need to ask me, do I want you to tell me what time it is or how to build the watch?
00:47:40
Speaker
And I was kind of looking at him like, what? he goes He goes, if it's something, he goes, if I tell you, I want to know what time it is, tell me how much the gas monitor is. I'll tell you yes or no. He said, but if I tell you, hey, yeah, you can tell me how to build the watch, then he's allowing me to take up more of his time to explain why we need this new gas monitor. yeah It completely changed my my my career path because those conversations you have, instead of just filling the air with extra words, just get to the point. Some people just want to hear, okay, what's the point? You lead with the headline.
00:48:14
Speaker
Yeah. Or you lead with the ask. Yeah, that's something that I was that i was taught, um I don't know, maybe midpoint in my career, same sort of thing, where you feel like you need to use all of the justification to explain the why, because you yourself would want to know that, right? Yeah. But the person making the decision might not operate that way.
00:48:36
Speaker
So lead with the thing that you want, if it's an email or a statement or conversation or whatever, you know I'm coming here because um we need to buy a gas monitor. And that's a full sentence, right? And then if they say, why do we need a gas monitor? Oh, well then you get to you get to tell them a little bit more. Cause the next question might be, yeah, how much is that? And then you say, you know whatever it is. And they're like, yeah, okay.
00:49:01
Speaker
or it could be, why do we need that? you know Exactly. Interesting. Well, thats that's good that's good. That was a good thing. what What else were you going to say about attributes? ah So obviously the active active listening is very important. Listen to reply and er then not listen to respond. You're you're waiting for that them to stop talking so you can, you know, interject your thought. Well, here's what I think. I had one of my, one of my people on my team that used to always say, well, you know what I think you should do? And just like instantly, to they weren't not listening to anything that I was talking about. So, ah but really actively caring. So ah the the thing that I have probably grown
00:49:44
Speaker
Uh, it in, in my experience is having empathy is not a bad thing. So there's one thing that, you know, obviously have sympathy if you've never gone through that situation, but empathy really putting yourself in their shoes. And, you know, when somebody comes to you with a problem.
00:50:01
Speaker
Disengaging from whatever you're doing and really turning away from whatever you're working on to engage with that ah with that employer that supervisor here in my office. I have a little roundtable that Anytime somebody comes in and and they they they stay out of the door jam. They actually enter the office I just moved to the table because a couple different things one it it keeps us on the same level. Yep If I'm behind my desk and they're standing talking to me, then I have a, I would say a sense of authority or presence of authority. But if I go over and sit at the table with them, then we're equal. and And it allows the conversation to flourish a lot more than if I'm just quickly trying to get to their problems. So ah that's that's one of the things that that I really like to do. Anytime i I'm talking with the employees, I'm not on my agenda. I'm on their agenda.
00:50:50
Speaker
you So i'm I'm here to, I get paid by the, you know, by the hour, I'm the salary employee, but you know what, I'm here for them. And that's the one thing that I learned over my career is really having those conversations with the employees, whether it's, you know, talking about the football games or whatever, what have you, it's just getting on their, on their page rather than, even if I have a question that I brought to them, sometimes I'm not not even going to ask the question based on how the conversation goes.
00:51:18
Speaker
Yeah, right. And as we, as we're, I'm looking, I'm checking the time right now. oh no um I want to make sure that um you talk about the fact that you're continuing to teach yourself these leadership skills. um I believe you told me recently we're at a leadership retreat. So this is something that's important to you and you keep wanting to develop your skills. Yeah. Talk about how you continue to develop yourself.
00:51:42
Speaker
So the the previous HR director, uh, when I, I, I went to him, I probably worked here two years and I developed a, uh, really quickly. I was going through incident reports and I had this little post-it note, uh, a tablet that was next to my desk. And yeah so every time I would get an incident report that had something that I wanted to correct, I would add it to the list.
00:52:06
Speaker
Then I went to the HR director once the list was full and said, hey, give me 90 minutes with all of our managers and supervisors so I can clear all this up. I want to get everybody on the same page. So he agreed to that. And we were able to train almost 90% of our supervisors and managers in in those few 90 minute sessions that I had. And interesting, I was towards the end of one of the sessions and ah I remember one of our PD sergeants came up to me and he said, Hey, Randy, you did a really great job. and And i I don't do it for the glory. So I always like to defer, you know, oh, yeah, thanks. You know, no problem. All right. And so he he repeated it again. He goes, no, you don't understand. You really are good at your present presenting. And I said, well, I appreciate that. And I said, well, that that actually begs to ask me a question. You know, out of this training that you got, you know, how long have you worked here? And he said he had worked in our PD office or PD department for 15 years. Police department for anybody who's wondering. Yeah, sorry. Police departments. OK.
00:53:01
Speaker
You know, how much of this training have you had over the years, you know, since you've been here at the city and he yeah held up the zero. And that's when I realized, wow, there's a great opportunity here. I could actually take what I learned and taught at the mines and use that. So when i when I presented it to the HR director, ah his his response to me was stay in your lane.
00:53:24
Speaker
Oh, and, and I didn't understand it at the point. And so I kind of festered over it for the next couple of days until finally, I just had to go. I had to clarify what he meant by that. And he said, well, Randy, people see you as a safety manager. They don't see you as a leadership development person.
00:53:41
Speaker
And so recently, so i I was, I said, okay, well, if I'm not going to do it, we really need to do something here at the city. So for the first few years, they would hire a consultant to come in and do these little one hour leadership trainings. And then, you know, for the most part, they were pretty good, but they were just like, just grazing the surface. They didn't really get any into any much depth.
00:54:04
Speaker
yeah Well, when we have a new HR director came on board and I wanted her to know that I do have this knowledge base that I've, you know, can operate out of. And we actually hired a gal from Colorado. She came up and did ah Crucial Conversations, which is a great book. if you If you haven't read it, you really need to read it. ah But she actually taught, so two sessions, two eight hour sessions, she took us through ah the basis of the book and then really how to have a critical or crucial conversation. So in talking to this trainer, anytime I'm around a leadership trainer, I'm just like ah a seven year old boy, just totally geeking out. And so I said, Hey, can you come to my office for a minute? And and we're on a break. And so I showed her my bookcase and I said,
00:54:48
Speaker
i I love what you're doing. and And I really hope it takes here at the city, but here is my world. And she starts pulling books out of the shelf going, Oh, yeah, I've read this book. and Oh, this book is really great. And, you know, these different things. And we just had this rapport back and forth. And she goes, Well, why haven't you? Why haven't you done this, you know, here at the city? And I said, Well, because the previous HR director said that I wasn't in my lane. yeah it was under my lane So yeah she said, well, it's going to be my recommendation. So she recommended um to the HR director that I do get involved. So we're looking at this next year, her and I co-teaching a session and then me kind of taking over that. Fabulous. Yeah. So I'm pretty excited about what that looks like next year.
00:55:33
Speaker
Oh, that's fabulous. And perfect timing as you're in the midst of your ah coming up on the midst of your budget decisions that you have to make in pitches for January. Yeah. um ah Randy, i I want to make sure that um I don't forget to ask you this as we're closing out our time today. You are in the process of writing a book. Do you want to tell the audience a little bit about it, or is this like a surprise? oh it's Yeah, like what what can you share? but Because that's personal. Yeah. It was interesting because I really wanted to, I ah really wanted to take the knowledge that I have had over the past almost.
00:56:11
Speaker
27, yeah, over 27 years yeah of being in management and and really present it in a ah book format. And I remember we had, I had a mentor actually from your neck of the woods that we actually hired to come out and he was our motivational speaker during our June safety day. We have a ah huge safety day every June to support national safety councils.
00:56:34
Speaker
June safety month. And he came out and I had, I had, I'd seen him, uh, the college had hired him a couple of different times. So I had seen him speak before, and he is a 10 year old older version of me, the way he presents to just, I just, I just loved it. So I really developed this friendship with him. So.
00:56:52
Speaker
We had communicated over LinkedIn and texts and stuff. And when we hired him to come to be our motivational speaker, kick off our sessions, I was able to actually take him to dinner and to ask actually ask him questions that he had been on the speaker.
00:57:09
Speaker
the speaker tour for the last five or six years. And so really trying to pick his brain. And when I mentioned, I was like, yeah, you know i really I've always wanted to write a book. And he's like, what's stopping you? And I go, ah what? And no one's ever asked me that, because I usually throw that out. And everybody kind of just blows by it. And he goes, well, what's your leadership? What's your book on? I go, well, it's kind of on leadership. And things it's kind of like the anti-leadership book. And he said, explain that. And I said, well,
00:57:37
Speaker
I've learned through the years of what not to do. So what the book is going to be is things that I've learned over the years you know of how I've been in situations where it did not go right yeah and give or give them the insight of you know how it could actually go right. So he's been holding my feet to the fire.
00:57:55
Speaker
And wonderful after that meeting, he's been, okay, so when when's this book coming out? And I'm like, well, I'm i'm i'm in the table of contents. And he said, no, you need to, every month you need to write a little more. So I've been trying to stay diligent with that. And that's one of my main goals in 2025 is to I have all the chapters, uh, I have all the chapters penned. I just need to add stories and you know, the takeaways from each chapter, but I'm really looking forward to it. So I've got a couple of friends that are authors or that offered authored books. So kind of getting their insight on, you know, how do you, how do you do this? And so trying to kind of get their knowledge, you know, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel and learn trial by fire is, is trying to take the insight from them. So yeah, I'm pretty excited about that.
00:58:40
Speaker
Fabulous. Fabulous. I'm interested to hear when you're when you're done. i'm interested to I'm interested to read it and see um what I can learn from those what not to do experiences as well. Oh, don't worry. You will get a signed copy delivered to you. Thanks. We'll see each other in the conference circuit. Oh yeah, that's true.
00:58:57
Speaker
Yeah. So Randy, thank you so much for sharing your story and sharing um what you've learned about leadership. Really appreciate that. Appreciate it. Thank you for coming on. and i really appreciate you having me And thanks for teaching us about government. Love that. Love that. Fun stuff. And thank you all for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good.
00:59:19
Speaker
May your employees and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human well-being, which is at the core of our practice. If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe and iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player that you have.
00:59:36
Speaker
Or if you prefer, you can read the transcript and listen at hsi dot.com. We'd love it if you leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals like Randy and I. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer. And until next time, thanks for listening.