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Ray - Insulated Concrete Forms, Builder, Real Estate Agent, Entrepreneur.
69 Plays1 year ago
In this episode of the Jobs Podcast, we speak with Ray. Ray is an ICF builder (Insulated Concrete Forms), real estate agent and entrepreneur. We learn about the benefits of ICF, such as energy efficiency, storm resistance, durability, etc. Ray walks us thru his journey from delivering masonry supplies as a kid, to working full time while getting his online degree, and finally becoming the successful builder, real estate agent and entrepreneur that he is today.
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Music by: SnoozyBeats - Song Title - "Keep It Calm". Please check out SnoozyBeats on PixaBay for a ton of awesome content! - LINK
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:11
Speaker
Hey folks, you're listening to the jobs podcast. I am your host, Tim Hendricks. Your time is valuable. I'm not going to waste it. Let's get right to the interview. Today we have Ray. Ray is a builder, a real estate agent. He's got some masonry experience, but his specialty is insulated concrete forms. So today we're going to learn all about how to build a super efficient storm safe and insulated house. And I happen to have one of
Ray's Background and Education
00:00:36
Speaker
those. So um I have a personal interest in this, but Ray, how you doing, man?
00:00:41
Speaker
I'm doing well, Tim. How are you this evening? I'm doing all right. Thanks for joining me today. Yeah, thanks for the invite. Happy to be here. You bet. So let's just go ahead and start. let Tell me where you were born and give me kind of a brief little history about the origins of Ray. and I'm a Texan by heart. oh was Born in 1976. I'm older than dirt.
00:01:03
Speaker
But, uh, we lived there for about nine years, moved to Louisiana for a couple of years and then moved up here to the great state of misery. I mean, Missouri, uh, in 1987 and I've been here ever since. So.
00:01:16
Speaker
grab So not too bad. And dad was always kind of an entrepreneur. He had a um ah pipe and sewer pump pipe and sewer pipe company in Texas. And he had some friends that were brick layers and they came up here to Missouri and they said, Hey, if you'll come up here and open up a supply company, we'll, we'll give you business. So he's like, okay. And so we moved up here and that's where the masonry experience came from. Yeah. So his brick and sand and mortar and just all that kind of stuff. That's what you dealt with.
00:01:47
Speaker
and Right. Everything it takes to brick a house and put in a real masonry fireplace, except for the brick. So we were all into the accessory stuff. And we did that for, oh geez, about 25, 26 years. Is that where you started just working in the in the warehouse or something? or Yep. In summertime, whenever we, you know, school was out, I was always riding in the middle between my dad and my brother and lamenting all the slug bugs that were on the road at the time.
00:02:16
Speaker
And you you got some good workouts, delivering that stuff all the time. ah Yeah. Yeah. I was, I pretty much a bean pole. So it was, it was a good experience. oh So did you do that all through high school and then did you go to college or did you you go right into just working for your dad or. Yeah, I went right into working for him. Uh, there wasn't really a need for college at that point. Cause you know, the career was already kind of set up, but, uh,
00:02:42
Speaker
there were things that came up along the way that I went back to school and um and got, you know, working on my associates degree um with things that would help out the business. So as as cash would allow, I wasn't one for student loans. So I just kind of paid as I went. And and when the money ran out, I quit going. Was this ah like a business business classes or?
00:03:07
Speaker
ah No, I actually just like picked out an associate's degree um schedule from OTT and no, I'm sorry. It was University of Phoenix because it would allow me to do some online.
00:03:19
Speaker
And so that's kind of kind of what I did there. The online stuff is really convenient, because especially for people that are working professionals like yourself, you don't have the time to go and sit in a class all day long. Or if you have a family, you don't want to go spend the evening sitting in class until 9 or 10 o'clock at night after working all day.
00:03:38
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And that's, that was, I mean, your classes are typically three hour classes. So I didn't have time for that crap. Sure. So the, uh, the university of Phoenix thing was cool because it was one class at a time. They were five weeks at a time and you met once a week. Oh, okay.
00:03:56
Speaker
And so that really made it nice to be able to concentrate, do most of it online and and stay out of the classroom all the time. I don't know much about the online setup. I mean, I know that that it's convenient. Are you doing a a live classroom where the teacher is lecturing or is it mostly just the presentation is done or you get together and it's a Q and&A by typing questions or how does that typically go or does it depend on the class?
00:04:21
Speaker
With them, it was once a week you would meet and they would lecture for three hours. But other than that, it was just like, hey, here's your homework, get in your groups, get it done, bring it back to, you know, you turn in a lot of your stuff online. um But then there was a group project at the end. and and But the classes were only five weeks long, so it was very compact and concise and
Introduction to Insulated Concrete Forms (ICF)
00:04:42
Speaker
to the point. and And that was nice because if you didn't like the class, it only lasted five weeks and you were done and moved on. Sure. Well, and one at a time, that's, that's a digestible bite as far as your education goes. So yeah, cause most of them are our three classes at a time. Well, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And conventional college. So.
00:05:02
Speaker
So you went through that process and how long did you do the, after you took over for your dad or start working for your dad after high school, how long did you do that before you shifted gears and moved into the insulated concrete form side of things? In, let's see, I graduated in 95.
00:05:25
Speaker
We picked up gas fireplaces and started putting those in. So I did all the sales and install and service work for those um because masonry fireplaces were expensive and everybody was going, you know, zero clearance or or gas fireplace. yeah um So we did that for a little bit and then we spun that off because everybody started getting into it. So we spun that off and sold that division of the company. And I guess it was about 2003, 2004, we decided that it's like, okay, we only have masonry again. So what else are we going to do?
00:05:55
Speaker
and so we did some research and and kind of looked at the money problems of you know when people quit paying their bills because they're spending way too much money on you know cabinets and countertops and bathtubs and that kind of thing and and landed on on insulated concrete forms just because it was it was more than aesthetics um and it was kind of at the front of the build So it helped out. That's good. The insulated concrete forms. Now I know about those, but for the people listening, what is it that separates an insulated concrete form structure from your typical just residential builder, you know, your three bedroom, two bath type home.
00:06:39
Speaker
Sure. In layman's terms, you can do whatever you want with them. You can build whatever structure you want, but basically it's a hollow styrofoam Lego block that you stack on top of each other to build a structure. And then you fill the hollow middle with concrete. So you have, when you're done, you have a solid concrete steel reinforced, super insulated structure. That's a fire resistant, storm resistant, super energy efficient.
Personal Experiences with ICF
00:07:07
Speaker
Wow.
00:07:08
Speaker
Yeah. Pretty much like living in a Yeti cooler. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I think I mentioned it early on. I live in an ICF house and I've um've just been fascinated by them because the ones that we have, you know, are we're all electric. We have 1600 square feet, three bedroom, two bath. And our highest electric bill is about $180 a month.
00:07:36
Speaker
And that's right pretty darn good when you figure yeah that's the worst we're going to get. Usually we're floating around the 125 a month for our hot water, for our HVAC, for everything. And sure you know if you factor out the silly fees that the electric company likes to throw in there, we're under $100 a month for our electric bill for a family of four. I can do that to be a win.
00:08:02
Speaker
So yeah 1600 square foot I mean in the stick frame house I mean you're you're double that. Right. So, yeah, right. one One of the, it's not a drawback necessarily but it's an observation that I made we've been in this house about five years, and I noticed they're extremely quiet inside.
00:08:21
Speaker
But there are times when there'll be somebody pulled up outside and I don't know they're there because I can't hear the door shut. I can't hear the car running. And so the UPS guy will be standing out there trying to find if somebody's home or not. And I'm just blissfully sitting in my recliner unaware that there's somebody out there, but they're so quiet inside. That's, that's another real nice benefit. So. Absolutely. Yeah. A couple of quick little stories on that one. One of the ones that we built was for an older lady.
00:08:50
Speaker
And, um, her, there was ah a microburst storm that came through Springfield, Missouri. Um, and she lived out and all about 10 miles east of there and, um, she went out on her front porch the next morning and all of her patio furniture was gone.
00:09:08
Speaker
And she couldn't figure out what was going on. And and she had kind of a wraparound porch. And she finally found all of her patio furniture was all jammed into one corner of the porch, all you know like crammed together in a corner. And she didn't even know it rained.
00:09:24
Speaker
Oh my goodness. And, and yet we had buildings that were, that were, you know, stick frame and whatever that were being blown down that night. And and we had, uh, it was between 70 and 80 mile an hour wind and she had no clue. So, and unfortunately, like what you're talking about that same lady, um, she saw tail lights.
00:09:43
Speaker
Leaving her she kind of lived out in the country. So she saw taillights leaving her driveway slash road One day it was a truck and and had a big trailer and had several round bales of hay on the back of it and apparently this dude had driven up and with his big flatbed truck and trailer and tractor and had loaded up several of her round bales and decided that they were his and Left and she didn't even know he was there. So
00:10:12
Speaker
Thankfully at this point in time, you know, they created nest cams and everybody's got doorbell cameras and all that stuff. and Really nice, but, but yeah, that's one of those things. There's all hell can be breaking loose outside and you're really not going to know it inside. So i'm blissfully unaware.
00:10:28
Speaker
Yeah. but ye In that case ignorance is bliss. Yeah. What is the typical, now the brand that I have and the brand that you utilize, there's multiple
History and Development of ICF
00:10:39
Speaker
different brands of ICFs out there. what um What is, is there an industry standard as far as the one that most people build their typical residential homes with will provide how many miles per hour of wind resistance or storm resistance?
00:10:55
Speaker
Sure. When you're doing research on ICF, the everything that that you read on on all the pamphlets, all the advertising materials is all based off of six inch concrete core ICF. And so a stick frame will withstand about 120 mile an hour wind. um If you have the trusses tied down, ah the ICF is 250 mile an hour.
00:11:17
Speaker
Just to put that into perspective, Hurricane Katrina was 187 miles an hour at her peak whenever she made landfall there in Louisiana. So, and we know how much devastation that did. um There's also, it has a a three and a half hour fire rating with half inch sheetrock, and it gets real close to four hours with with a five eights inch sheetrock. Wood is 20 minutes.
00:11:44
Speaker
So that's, you know, I'm not saying to break out some popcorn and start a Netflix movie, but you know, you, you got a little more time there to get your family out. And of course the walls aren't going to burn. So you've got your floor and your roof to deal with, but it's a lot less liability for the insurance company too. So, so we see a pretty significant drop in our homeowners insurance policies for clients. Oh, okay. What do you.
00:12:11
Speaker
Where did ICF start? Is that something that you you mentioned Hurricane Katrina? Is that something that it's commonly used out in Florida, for example, the Gulf Coast or where they deal with hurricanes on a regular basis? Truthfully, what happened was ah they invented it in Europe in 1942. There's a lot of Europe that is is higher in the atmosphere, not atmosphere, sorry, higher longitude. and latitude latitude, higher latitude than we are, and so it's a lot colder. And so it was invented in Europe, and then it was something that we adopted back ah in the 70s. It started going into commercial buildings, and then the 80s went into residential. And of course, like you said, it it started in Florida, Canada,
00:12:53
Speaker
California, where you've got, you know, really cold hurricanes, earthquakes, and it just, we're the Midwest. So everything takes about 20 years to trickle down here. And so it's been here for about 30, 35 years, something like that. But it's still kind of the new kid on the block when you consider that stick frame construction has been going on for, you know, hundreds of years. Right.
00:13:16
Speaker
Well, I hadn't even, I hadn't even dawned on me that earthquake part of things. Um, if you have a concrete structure like that, I think that would probably do well when the earth is moving underneath you. So that's it. Yep. Yeah. So you've been selling and building and just involved with ICF construction since, what did you say? 2000 and what 2003, 2004 is when we picked up ICF. Okay. And how have you seen the industry move in that regard?
00:13:47
Speaker
it We grow every year, so it's something that that we see an increase in, with ah especially with energy costs. People understand that that your homeowners insurance usually goes up every year, especially with the more natural disasters we have across the country. They take that out of everybody, because it's ah it's a a group pool. It's kind of like group health insurance. you know ah We kind of get to to pay for everybody as a blanket thing, and which is good. you know That's what evens everybody out, but it still increases those that that that didn't necessarily have a claim. yeah And so we see some increases there. Utility bills continue to go up and energy costs continue to to rise. And so we see a lot of that um as well as a result of, and we have a lot of people that are are wanting a little more off the grid now.
00:14:37
Speaker
something that consumes less energy so that if at some point in time, fossil fuels do reach a point where we have to do something else, then those alternatives are less because their their house requires less. And so there'd be a lot more apt to move to something alternative and and be an easier move.
Integration of Solar Energy with ICF
00:14:55
Speaker
That's one of the things that kind of attracted me is that if my house is extremely efficient to begin with, then I would like to get solar at some point just for yeah the self-independence aspect of it. And if my home doesn't, I just wouldn't need as big of a solar array in theory, because my house is a lot more efficient. and so And with solar, the prices have come way down, but there's still a system for your home to be, you know, 90, 100% of your usage, it's still pretty expensive. So yeah. Yeah. Typically what I see is somewhere around $50,000 for a typical three bedroom, two bath solar system. Right. And in some parts of the country in California, for example, where their electric rates are through the roof, solar actually makes a lot of sense. Um, and then they have state rebates and things like that too. But
00:15:46
Speaker
Texas is very much the same way. Their rates aren't as expensive, but they have tons of rebates. State rebates, um, are, are just kind of out the wazoo over there. And here in the Midwest, I mean, we, every now and then we can get ahold of some federal stuff. But other than that, if you're, if you can't get ahold of a farm type, uh, grant or, or whatever, then you're just kind of hung out there, you know, good luck. Right. So it makes it difficult sometimes.
00:16:12
Speaker
Now the ICF, you said it's a foam block, as I know, when you put concrete in the middle. Is that, if you're building that, I would think it would be easier to just carry foam blocks around the job site than it would be to be lugging around 12 or 16 foot two by sixes, two by 12s, whatever dimensional lumber you're using.
00:16:32
Speaker
Oh yeah, absolutely. And it it goes together faster too. So it's, it's a real nice process as far as that goes. I'm not, like I said, I was born in 76. I'll be 48 here in just a couple of weeks and I'm not a spring chicken anymore, but, uh, carrying foam around is a lot more attractive to me than, than hauling two by sixes and, and, uh, zip board and OSB and all that stuff. It's a little overrated at my age.
00:16:59
Speaker
Do you find that assembling it, you said they go together, they're essentially just like Lego blocks for for lack of a better term. Yep. What's the, I mean, if you have someone, let's use my house again as an example, 1600 square feet. I know that every house build is different depending on the complexity, but is there a general rule of thumb as far as if we're doing, let's say 2,000 square feet, you know, three bedroom, two bath kind of a deal.
00:17:26
Speaker
how long would it take you to assemble a home like that? Usually it cuts out about a third of the building time. Uh, when you look at the ICF in general, I mean, you've got your vapor barriers on the outside and your, your sheeting is already done on the outside. Your studying or furring is done on the outside. Um, your, um,
00:17:48
Speaker
Insulation's already done when you pour
Technical Advantages of ICF
00:17:50
Speaker
that wall. So, I mean, we're talking five or six contractors that's already taken care of in processes, you know, and and just by your ICF guy. And so that part really kind of speeds up the process.
00:18:04
Speaker
How long does it take when you pour the concrete in the walls? Do you have to use any kind of ah an additive? I've heard, of I don't know much about concrete additives, but I seem to remember they can add stuff that would make it cure faster. Do you use that kind of thing when you pour concrete in an ICF wall?
00:18:21
Speaker
I don't usually when it gets really cold, they'll they may put a little bit of calcium in the concrete at the first couple of trucks. um But typically it's not needed. One of the one of the things about ICF is that the concrete once you pour it in there all of the water and heat and additives and everything are maintained within that space so when they make concrete and send it out to the job they're based that off of the parameters of you're going to pour your concrete and then you're going to strip the forms off of it in a couple days um if the guys wait that long and then for 20 26 days after that mother nature is going to you know add moisture take moisture away it's going to get cold it's going to get hot
00:19:06
Speaker
It's going to rain, you know, whatever. And and after all that aggression to the concrete to bear exposed concrete in 28 days, it's going to cure out or core out to what you ordered. Like if you ordered a 3000 pound mix, it'll have a 3000 pound crush strength. So when you take that concrete and you basically put it in a cooler and shut the lid, and which is like putting it in ICF and all that's retained, it takes it a little longer to cure.
00:19:33
Speaker
but at the 28 day mark, it's what you ordered. At five years, it's 50% harder than what you ordered. hu So it's a pretty cool process. I did not know that. I learned something new every day.
00:19:45
Speaker
That's it. And typically we pour, um, a 4,000 to 4,500 pound mix just because it flows better. And so, I mean, your walls, for instance, I mean, we poured those at a 4,000 pound mix. So you're looking now at like 6,000 6,500 pound crush strength on your concrete.
00:20:04
Speaker
um goodness One thing that I thought was really cool is that when I was done with my ICF walls at the very top before the trusses were put on, um it was recommended to me that I put essentially a wet set bracket down in the concrete spaced out where the trusses were going to be. And so then when the trusses landed,
00:20:26
Speaker
I could anchor them to the concrete wall and then there was a strap that went over the the tail of the rafter. you know I don't remember, don't quote me on this, but I want to say it provided 180 mile per hour resistance to wind on my roof by doing that.
00:20:46
Speaker
I'm not surprised at all. There's a trust company here in town that they make 120 mile an hour t trust. And they said that once we tie it down to the ICF, it it is effectively a 200 mile an hour trust. So the one that I'm, the house that I'm building right now, um we ordered 150 mile an hour trust. And so they're a little beefier anyway, but then once we anchor those things down, they're not going anywhere. So And the problem with with a lot of lift on on your eaves and with your trusses is the walls start racking and moving and that loosens up those connections. And so with an ICF wall, you got solid concrete. So those walls of your house don't start racking. You just have the uplift at the wind. And so it does take a lot more to to pull your roof off.
00:21:31
Speaker
if you've got 200 mile per hour winds hitting your house you you've done something wrong and god is mad because you might as well put your head between your legs and kiss your butt goodbye yeah that's right yeah i forget what the r the tornado scale is an r5 in our It used to be classified as ah as an F4. And with the new classifications, you know, they take into account not only the storm size, but also the damage and the amount of money and so forth. And so it's ah an old F4, a new EF5 is what ICF will withstand. And so an EF5, which is, that I guess, the highest rating or the most extreme rating? Is that correct? Yeah, they call it the finger of God, basically.
00:22:15
Speaker
What would the mile per hour, what would you experience in that type of a tornado, for example, or winds? You would hope that you would live to tell about it, but it is a, it's an excess of 300 mile an hour winds. Oh my goodness. Okay. Yeah. Well, the chances of that happening are extremely slim. So yeah. Sure.
00:22:39
Speaker
So the utility bill is going to come in every month. yeah those that homeowners insurance So that's stuff that, uh, we build, you know, if if you get over into, to Oklahoma and, and, um, Southwest Missouri, where they have a lot of tornadic activity, then we deal with some of that, but a lot more of what we do is, is more, uh, safe room inside the house or, um, Oh, sure.
00:23:04
Speaker
you know, and and for protection and then also storage, you know, people have valuables and and that kind of stuff. We've done everything. We've done underground tunnels. We've done shooting ranges and basements, all kinds of stuff.
Ray's Dual Role: Real Estate and Construction
00:23:17
Speaker
It's just, there's, there's a lot more versatility of this than, than there's stick frame. Sure. A shooting range in a basement. Now that sounds interesting. I need to talk to that guy, put me in touch. think we I could introduce you, but then I'd have to kill you. so All right. Okay. Yeah.
00:23:34
Speaker
So you've been doing these houses, it's growing every year. Do you do any other kind of work or is essentially, I thought you did real estate as well. I do, uh, I got my real estate license back in 2013. Okay. So it's a really nice marriage because people come to my office generally with a set of plans or beforehand. And, uh, you know, we'd love to build a house, but we need to sell our house first, or we need to buy a piece of land, you know, to build on. And so it gives me an opportunity to to work with them and kind of figure out who they are. They figure out who I am.
00:24:08
Speaker
And we build ah a nice rapport and kind of a friendship prior to building. And so I don't like surprises and I don't like secrets. And so when we go into the building process, it's just a lot more comfortable than just somebody you found on the internet. Sure. Well, and you can follow them through the whole process and it's nice on their side because they have one person to contact for everything from start to finish. Right. So I can see the benefits to that, both to you and to them.
00:24:38
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's a nice deal. It really turns out well. Which do you do more of? Is it more real estate stuff or is it more building ICF stuff? You know, I toyed with that when I was looking at getting my license. I was like, how in the world am I going to do two things? Because, you know, actually three because you're running a supply company is one.
00:24:58
Speaker
building is another and then, you know, the real estate's a third. Uh, and that's a lot. And so, uh, but real estate is very much retail. You know, people want to go see houses when they're not working, which is generally, you know, evenings and weekends and, and that kind of stuff. And building, um, and supply is very much during the day when people, you know, need supplies and then are working and, and that kind of thing. So it really kind of works out well.
00:25:26
Speaker
Well, you're a good example of somebody who's putting in the grind to make it work and be successful. You've got three irons in the fire, truly an entrepreneurial spirit. So you can't, you can't have one anymore. It's like, you know, the world used to be built where, you know, somebody went to work and somebody stayed home to raise the kids and yeah and take care of the house and, you know, make sure that everything was kept up and clean and whatever. And anymore.
00:25:49
Speaker
you know, both parents or both people in the relationship, you know, have to work just to make ends meet. And so it's the same with jobs. um To have all of your eggs in one basket or or your sole income coming from one source is is almost impossible anymore. Yeah,
Entrepreneurial Challenges and Success
00:26:06
Speaker
it is. What do you like about your job the most? And I know that you've got multiple irons in the fire, but it sounds like the ICF probably takes up the bulk of it. Is that a fair statement?
00:26:19
Speaker
It does. I mean, there's a, there's a, when we're, when I'm with a client and we're looking at houses, um, you know, that, that is time consuming because you're doing the research on the houses and you're taking them to, to view houses and tour them. And, and then after that's done, um, you know, there's some paperwork and then there, there's some babysitting of of title companies and inspectors and, and that kind of stuff, but it's a little more hands off. Um, the supply is kind of the same way.
00:26:47
Speaker
um But the building side of it is, you know, that's more of a, you know, eight to five Monday through Friday, you know, depending on the weather, sometimes weekends kind of thing. So yeah. What, uh, what do you dislike the most about your job?
00:27:07
Speaker
Anytime you, when you're an employee, you work for a boss. And if the boss wakes up on the wrong side of the bed, um, you could lose your job today, tomorrow. Anytime the phone rings could be your last second at that job.
00:27:24
Speaker
And when you're an entrepreneur or in business for yourself, you don't have that boss, but life is your boss. So it's not so much as like, I you know ah woke up today and I went to work and I got fired and and I had to come home.
00:27:39
Speaker
um There's a lot more monitoring because you have to you have to be able to identify a downhill trend and stop the bleeding before you just end up in absolute you know turmoil and debt and and whatever at the end of it. um But there's some flexibility there.
00:27:58
Speaker
of, of a cool down period. Um, so to speak, if you know something, if you, if you haven't a foresight to see it coming, right um then that's kind of there. But I think what I would probably enjoy the most, I'm a C personality. I like the nuts and bolts and, and that kind of stuff. So that the building side really appeals to me. Um, but people, I really love people that like working with people and, and I have a lot of fun with them. yeah So those are kind of the, the like and the dislike of the, of the two, I think.
00:28:27
Speaker
Well, being an entrepreneur, which you certainly are, you have all of the freedom that comes along with, I get to make all the decisions. I get to decide what the priorities are and arrange things how I want it and tackle as much as I want. But at the end of the day, all of the responsibility to be successful is in your lap.
00:28:48
Speaker
so Oh, absolutely. And there there are days when I would trade that to be an employee because I can i can i can stop work. I can clock out at five o'clock on Friday and I can go home and forget about it yeah until Monday morning. And you do not have that luxury as an as an entrepreneur. it is It is yours. It is your baby. It is on your mind 24 hours a day, seven days a week, rain, shine, holidays, vacations. It doesn't matter.
00:29:15
Speaker
The nice thing about that though is when you're successful and you've been successful, then you know I'm successful because I busted my butt for years. I put in the work, ah you know I long days, I had weekends, I had nights, and now I'm successful because of all of my hard work. And so you you can look at yourself in the mirror and and know that the person responsible for your success is who's looking back at you.
00:29:40
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And there, there, there's some solace in that. There's some pride that comes into that. You got to be too careful or you have to be really careful that you don't get a little too caught up into that because you know, that pride comes before a fall. Oh sure. Um, and so you got to be careful about how you, how much you look at that, but yeah, you're, you're absolutely right. It went at the end of the day. yeah It's great to see a project come to fruition that is either on budget or under budget and you've got happy people.
00:30:09
Speaker
and you got a little money in the bank and and everything works out. What kind of soft skills, if someone was wanting to follow in your footsteps and and start learning about ICF and how to build with it and all the pros that come with that, what kind of person does well in in your line of work? um Obviously, my kind of...
00:30:34
Speaker
That's kind of a two-fold question. So if you're going to go into being an ICF contractor or installer, ah you can just go to work for somebody and gain some building experience. If you want to take some construction trade classes and and like your local community college um where you want some background um and pay a little money, you know, that's okay. At least you're not leaving, you know, after six or eight years with a quarter million dollars in student loan debt. Right.
00:31:03
Speaker
But... um Those kind of basic skills, you know, how to read a tape measure, how to run a saw on a drill and and that kind of stuff is is pretty imperative, pretty important. It doesn't take a whole lot of overhead to get into. um On the business side of it, that's a lot more intense. um The School of Hard Knocks is the best school in the world, but it's also one of the most expensive. So, you know, going through some type of business class, some type of accounting class,
00:31:34
Speaker
having interpersonal skills, being able to communicate with people. um
00:31:42
Speaker
having manners, it's it's a trivial little thing, but it is huge but how people's attitudes change when you know how to say please and thank you and you're not just fully yourself and and that kind
Education and Skills in ICF Industry
00:31:54
Speaker
of thing. So those those things are are pretty, pretty important on either side of it. But yeah, if you're going to do the just the construction side, then just the basic tools and and some some know-how, some handyman know-how works really well.
00:32:09
Speaker
It seems like if you did get a job with someone just swinging a hammer or doing roofing or something along those lines, I mean, that's probably the best way to learn is by doing it. If that's an option for me, I learned by, you can tell me how to do it 10 times, but until you show me and I do it a couple of times, it doesn't click. So I'm not everybody's that way, but yeah, no, I'm same way. I'm a very visual type person. And so I said, you can tell me, but I want to watch you do it and then let me do it. And then I got it. Right.
00:32:39
Speaker
You mentioned a minute ago about ah going to a class for a community college. I know that a lot of the trade schools have different types of construction in HVAC and welding and mechanical and all that type of stuff. But in the building courses, do they do much as far as ICF construction or is it still considered just kind of like a ah fringe type thing? it It blows my mind that it's not more common.
00:33:02
Speaker
Then it is it's a fringe type thing. It's it's one of those things that uh, you know, overall icf is only five percent of the of the building industry um Now come to find out the forestry industry, uh is the hand that feeds even the national home builders association's pockets so so some of that is you don't buy the hand that feeds you but other than that it's a uh building out a stick frame is just something we've done for hundreds of years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And people just don't realize how broke it is. Right.
00:33:35
Speaker
So that's, that's a big part of it. So, um, the ICF part is not something that you're going to pick up in those trade schools, unless it's just one day or two where your professor, you know, um, asked somebody like me to come in and present that day or, or show you the ins or outs or, or whatever. But most of what you're going to learn there is your typical hammer swinging nail gun, how to run a saw, you know, how to why how i walk away from the job with all your fingers, you know, that kind of thing.
00:34:04
Speaker
<unk>s Important stuff, you know, you really should reach out to community colleges or trade schools and offer to go in and speak with them I bet you somebody would take you up on that. Yeah, I think so I mean we've done it for a couple of the colleges around just not not as much on a regular basis Sometimes I get busy and and forget about some of that reach out stuff that I should be doing. Yeah what Did you have somebody that was your mentor? I know your dad and your brother, you worked with them and and you probably learned a lot by watching and doing, but was there anybody in your industry, maybe in the ICF side of things that it kind of took you under your wing or someone that you admired and learned a lot from?
00:34:42
Speaker
No, really there wasn't. I mean, we, I've been a, I kind of, um, when I pick up a new product, I'm a very hands off kind of person. I don't need a salesperson in my office every week or once a month. Uh, I just need you to pick up the phone when I call, cause it's going to be important. I don't call over a little trivial stuff. So it was just like, Hey, give me the books. Let me, let me take the classes. Um, and we're just going to learn this stuff and then we're going to just run with it. And that's, that's what we did. Oh, good.
00:35:10
Speaker
What's your best advice for someone that is looking to get into any of the but careers that that you currently have when you deal with- Well, you know, failure, it's part of it. You know, we all, even the most successful people, I mean, Elon Musk has failed and now he's worth, I don't know how many hundreds of billions of dollars. so Oh, absolutely. And it's part of, I can't, uh, I can't remember what the, what the stat was, but they say everybody who is a multimillionaire has filed bankruptcy like four or five, six, seven times, whatever it is. So you just kind of fail your way to success, yeah but no, seriously. I mean, there is less people getting into the trades.
00:35:50
Speaker
because, uh, there's more money to be made online now than there ever has been. And that's not going anywhere, but you have to even whatever you're selling online, that money has to come from somewhere and it whoever made it was doing something. And so we can't all sell online, unfortunately. Uh, and everybody needs a roof over their head. And so the trades, if you get into, to building, if you get into, uh, uh,
00:36:20
Speaker
electrical plumbing, HVAC, all of those are community college type programs that you can do and in two to four years ah with HVAC and electrical and plumbing. They have apprenticeship programs when you go to work for somebody and then you become a novice. and And then, you know, finally you're a master electrician or master plumber, but those guys, you can make as much as a doctor or more.
00:36:46
Speaker
I've paid them. Absolutely. we don't We all have, right? Yeah. yeah but you know even I mean, I'm going to cut costs on a lot of things when the economy is tight or money is tight, but I still want my plumbing to work. I still want my lights to come on. I mean, there are certain things you just have to have.
00:37:04
Speaker
so yeah Yep. And that's, that's the thing. Uh, the ICF industry, like I said, it's only 5% of the building industry. So that's a really small piece of the pie. And so it takes a lot to to make enough, you know, sales or, or whatever to make a good living there. Uh, I was just speaking to an HVAC contractor the other day who had built and sold his HVAC company.
00:37:27
Speaker
And he he told me, he we were talking about those stats and he said, you know, 87% of the United States has of the middle class have some type of heating and air. And if it's 87% of the middle class, then a hundred percent of the upper class. yeah And it was something stupid, like 70%, even of the lower class.
00:37:51
Speaker
So he had really picked out a niche that everybody had, everybody needs. And it was super smart. And he sold his company for millions and millions of dollars. And, uh, but those kinds of considerations are, you know, yeah way better than than, because even if you think about it, even doctors and lawyers and,
00:38:12
Speaker
And those guys, they still work for somebody. they They either work for a major hospital and can get fired at a heartbeat, or um they work for themselves. But if they get hurt, they're self-employed. If they get hurt and don't go to work, they there's no money to be made. right you know If I get hurt tomorrow, I've got subs doing the work on the job, so I can still manage and make money.
00:38:35
Speaker
Well, and you still got your real estate side of things where you can do that while your shoulder heals or something along those lines. Yeah, exactly. so But you got into ICF, you said it's only 5%, but you got into that pretty early on in the industry, so you've established yourself now. so your, I mean, your, your name is probably out there on anybody looking to build ICF. Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. if You get on Google and look up my area. I'm one of the first ones that come up and nobody has as much experience with ICF as I do in this area. Not that I'm tooting my own horn there. It's just, it's just fact. I mean, we've had ICF now for, for 20 years and none of my competitors even come remotely close to that. Nice. Is your product an American made product?
00:39:23
Speaker
ah It is. It's made in Ohio, manufactured there. They've got a couple of different plants in Idaho and Ohio, and and I think one on the East Coast somewhere as well. So they ship it down in a semi truck to a warehouse that you have, I assume. Is that how you store the product? Yep. Yep. I usually keep a couple truckloads in stock. Fortunately, though, I can also direct ship. So if a project is is big enough, then we just ship it directly from manufacturer to job site.
00:39:50
Speaker
And either they unload it or, or we show up and unload it for them. I would imagine the truck drivers get pretty good fuel economy when they're just delivering a truckload of foam blocks.
Future Business Strategies and Ethics
00:40:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. When you, when you have a, uh, a, uh, what is it? 73 foot truck or whatever it is, um, that's carrying 10,000 pounds, uh, it gets way better gas mileage and goes way faster than carrying that 80,000 pound, you know, fruit load or whatever it is. Sure.
00:40:20
Speaker
So let's shift gears here. The pay, you talked about how an HVAC guy or whatever could make, you know, if he wants to work hard and grow his company, he could make what a doctor would make for a fraction of the the school loans and the and the schooling that would be needed.
00:40:40
Speaker
Real estate, that's one of those things where the sky is a limit to a certain degree. sure what What types, if someone that builds, what what's the, where would someone expect if they were just getting into starting their own building company, what kind of income can they expect or is there even, it just all depends on what you put into it?
00:41:02
Speaker
Pretty much, and what systems you have in place, obviously, the more you you are able to do and capable of doing, the more you're going to make on the project. If you are if you are just a contractor that that subs everything out, well then, you know, there's a lot of money flying through your company, but that's exactly what it's going to do. It's going to fly right through you.
00:41:22
Speaker
because you're paying all the subs for everything. So there's a certain part of of our building process that we do, ah that we do ourselves. um And we have an installation company that's tied to the, not tied to it, separated, but you know still in and conjunction with a supply company. And so there's a certain part of that that we take on and we do, and and and then we sub out the stuff that we don't know how to do or don't want to do, like electrical, plumbing and roofing.
00:41:52
Speaker
the The plumbing in the electrical is probably two areas where it's just best to let the experts handle that. Yep. That's the one. I don't like getting shocked and plumbing is just a crappy job. Right.
00:42:04
Speaker
So if you weren't doing your current career, if you could go back to 15 year old Ray and he's got, you know, big dreams and he's going to be a rock star. He's going to be, you know, I don't know what you wanted to do, but what other career would it, if you ever look and think, well, what would I be doing if I wasn't doing this? What do you think it would be?
00:42:27
Speaker
I always said if I didn't, uh, of course we've always been in the supply type company and we've always had big, heavy products that we could only deliver within a couple hour radius. And, uh, I said, if I had to do it all over again on that side, I would pick a product that weighed less than five pounds that I could ship all over the world. Just because, you know, right now I'm, I'm dealing with, we are, we're a decent size area, but I have to pick take a pretty big chunk of the pie to make a good living.
00:42:56
Speaker
And if you have something small that, I don't know how many people there are in the US right now, 300 million or something like that. But if you have something small that a majority of those people or even a minority of those people need, you know how many of 300 million do you need to sell to make a dang good living?
00:43:16
Speaker
right So that that's probably what I would do just because all you need is a sliver of the big pie instead of a big piece of a little pie. Right. The riches are in the niches. I think is the, I mean, I know it's not pronounced niches, but it rhymes better. I heard it said that way. So. Yes, it does. And anybody that says niche is just off the rocker. Just a fancy. pan but That's right. They drink tea with their pinkies up. Oh yeah. all i'm playing Right.
00:43:43
Speaker
So what's the best compliment that you have ever received? Oh, I love the, this was the best experience we've ever had kind of thing, whether it comes from real estate or, or building or, or whatever. Cause everybody's got horror stories from their, their realtor, or their builder that never communicated and only gave them bills and they were over budget and yeah all that stuff, you know? And so we just try to, whenever I do a project, I just try to take those things in mind. Cause I've been on the, rele through receiving into some of that too.
00:44:13
Speaker
So I just try to keep that stuff in mind and and treat people the way I would want to be treated. And every house that I build is is like I build it like I would be building my own. And, uh, which, you know, is a little more stressful. I get it, but I just like happy people. Yeah. Well, who doesn't? I mean, there's so many sticks in the lid out there anymore that if you're a genuinely happy person, I think you just are a magnet for other people. So pretty much either that, or they just think you're an oddball for being happy all the time.
00:44:43
Speaker
Well, that's their problem. That's right. That's one of those, your problems. Yeah. Is there somebody that you, somebody in the, in the public eye that you admire or that you kind of model maybe some, some aspects of your business?
00:45:00
Speaker
I'm not anybody specific. I've always been kind of a student of businessmen. I like how they carry themselves. um they're They're thirst for knowledge and and just how they conduct their business. I'm kind of a student of that. And so the guys that, you know, the Robert Kiyosaki's of the world,
00:45:19
Speaker
um you know he's done multi He started out with rental properties and then did multi-family and apartment buildings and and his residential you know rental a portfolio is absolutely insane.
00:45:35
Speaker
um Trump is another one that I studied um when his in his business of commercial real estate and his his rent he you know his portfolio of commercial real estate and and how he built that um even from his dad was really cool um aside from everything else, just that just that side of his his business. But in a politics aside, he's a pretty successful businessman.
00:46:01
Speaker
Yeah, after all, you know, people like Elon Musk is the same same deal. and I was like, how how'd you get there? How'd you how'd you do that? you know and And those kinds of guys I like to read about the the billionaires of the world and kind of see how they got there. And I really admire those that didn't get where they are by stomping on other people. Sure. And so that's the kind of guys I try to emulate in my business.
00:46:24
Speaker
Sure. A lot of those guys, you know, you hear the stories and and when I asked this question, people, Elon Musk pops up a lot and he's extremely successful, of course, in Warren Buffett and folks like that. Sure. You know, Elon Musk was one of those guys who slept under his desk and he worked 125 hours a week and he did that for years. And he had people around him that would do the same thing. It's just a different breed of I mean, we all have the ability to do it. Some people, though, they get joy and satisfaction out of working constantly like that. I'm not the one that's built that way. I certainly would like my downtime, but I'm not worth $45 billion either.
00:47:13
Speaker
Yeah, but do you even need to be, you know, and I think that's, that that's where, where these guys get a little in the trenches is that you you don't need $45 billion dollars to be successful. I mean, you've the guy that dies with, with all the money still dies, yeah you know, so, and we only have a very limited time, you know, on this earth. So, you know, and be able to enjoy what you can.
00:47:35
Speaker
And you don't have to be a workaholic to do that. You've got to have enough gumption to get out of bed and go to work. yeah But, you know, you don't need to just sell your soul ah to work to to be able to do some of that stuff. So I don't need $45 billion, dollars but I sure would like to to know if I need it or not for real. That's it. Yup. Yup. That's the one. You know, a lot of these guys, they, they, they have all that.
00:48:01
Speaker
And then and not only do they not know what to do with it, but trying to keep it, you know, you never know who your friends are. You never know who's going to try to rob you or or whatever. And that part of it, it just, you were seeing that a lot more now and pop stars yeah this year, especially it's really come out. You know, there's even a couple um lady pop stars right now that are like, look, if they they don't knock this off, I'm just quitting. Yeah. Because it's, you've got all that, but who wants it? Yeah.
00:48:31
Speaker
It's a mess.
ICF's Market Potential and Efficiency
00:48:32
Speaker
the The potential, what's the future of ICF? Like, where do you see this market going? And then what other types of things might compliment someone who sells ICF? Is there an insulator industry that you might go, you know, I should probably get into that? or Maybe that's right. no i'm I'm still looking. I'm always looking. but yeah it's so I think ICF is only going to get stronger as time moves on. It used to be you could build out a two by four construction on the exterior of the house and then as building codes increased over the years from 2015 to 2018 building codes, um it's almost
00:49:15
Speaker
necessary that at minimum be two by six now. And that's just going to continue to to get bigger as energy efficiency and and disaster resistance and that kind of stuff becomes more more prevalent and more in demand. And so every time they do that, it's like, well, ICF was already there.
00:49:38
Speaker
You know, I don't care if you're framing out of two by twelves, you know, ICF is already there. We're already stronger. We're already more fire resistant. We're already more storm resistant. So it's just going to get better. Uh, the more educated people get and, and the more demand there is for, for better homes. I mean, uh, stick build houses is pretty much ah like 150 years throwaway home, you know, at 20 years, you're like, what is going to go wrong? Cause everything's fixing to break.
00:50:02
Speaker
Yeah, and and yet in europe, you know, they're selling these stone houses that are 200 years old You know, and and that'll happen here eventually i don't I thought of a question just now, and I don't think I asked you this. What does a typical wood structure, and and let's let's say that it's a ah quality stick build, like a two by six with a high R value insulation, spray foam, for example. I know that's one that a lot of people like to use. so How does that compare in the R value, which is a very common rating people like to use, to the R value of an ICF wall?
00:50:41
Speaker
2x6 and spray foam is an R32 that performs at about a 26. Iced EF is an R24 as it sits flat empty on the floor and it performs, once you get the concrete in in the house built, it performs at over 50 because the nothing there's no heat that transfers through it in the day and that's the way R value is measured. They put a heat lamp on one side and measure how much comes through on the other and that's your R value.
00:51:09
Speaker
Well, there is no transfer and so it performs way higher. And so even the the two by six and spray foam, it's almost double. Do you have the any benefit with the concrete? You said six inch earlier in our interview, six inches is the most common, um, thickness of concrete for a residential structure. Is that right? Yes. Yeah. Typically. What, what type of, what that mass does, do you have any benefit there with it retaining heat or retaining cool, like in the middle of the summertime with air conditioning?
00:51:40
Speaker
No it really what it amounts to is whatever your temperature is inside is never going to reach outside to get out of the house and whatever temperature it is outside in a 24-hour period is not going to reach inside to change the temperature and that's why the R value is so high in an ICF house um but the concrete itself is just considered thermal mass and has no R value. Okay but you're getting so you said in a 24-hour period so you're not you're not going to have these drastic or constant temperature fluctuations of 30 minutes later, it's dropped four degrees or it's gotten four degrees higher or whatever. It's going to stay pretty consistent over longer periods of time. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We've went in ice storms that we had. Let's see. We have one here in 2007, a big one. One of our clients lives in a big house, big ICF house and and him. And I can't remember how many kids they had, eight or 10.
00:52:36
Speaker
And they were in the basement and they would monitor, you know, how many times the kids went out the door and that kind of stuff. But in the week and a half that they lost electricity, they said they lost 12 degrees in the house. but And I mean, that was during the dead of winter, ice storm average temperatures were, you know, single digits and low teens kind of thing.
Conclusion and Reflections
00:52:56
Speaker
So that was pretty impressive. That is impressive.
00:53:00
Speaker
Well, I got to tell you Ray, this, I mean, I live in an ICF house, so I was pretty familiar with it, but I still learned an awful lot by talking with you and not only about ICF, but just about the industry and about what your job is like and what it's like to be an entrepreneur. So I want to thank you for taking the time 55 minutes almost, uh, out of your day to speak with, you know, a little old me. Absolutely. No, it was a pleasure. It's always fun to talk about this stuff and about business in general. And then of course, when we dial it down in the niches that we all have, it's, it's kind of cool to learn new things. And even after 20 years of dealing with this stuff, I mean, you always learn something new. And if you're, if you're not, you're going backwards or something wrong. So it's always a pleasure to talk about this stuff. That's right. That's right.
00:53:46
Speaker
And that wraps up another episode of the jobs podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Hopefully you found that interesting. As always, I wait until the end of an interview to ask you to like, subscribe and share. I feel it's important that I earn that support from you. Thanks again, and we will see you on the next one.