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Brian - DEA Supervisory Special Agent
27 Plays3 days ago
Sometimes experiences in youth mold us more than we know. Brian saw the effects that drugs were having on some of those around him at a young age and decided a career in law enforcement was what he wanted. With a few degrees in criminal justice and human resources under his belt, he began as a local police officer but the next step was closer than he realized. Fast forward 23 years and Brian was ending his career as a DEA Supervisory Agent. This interview is as solid as it gets and at times, is a bit raw; thats life. We discuss the addiction epidemic, Drug cartels, the supply and demand side of the drug problem, DEA pay, beneficial skillsets, and what a DEA agent will do to infiltrate and disrupt the drug scourge on our society. We also discuss Brians work in training and drug education after his long career with the DEA. Brians links can be found below. Thanks Brian!
Brian can be found at www.eagle6training.com or www.only2mg.com
If you found this episode enjoyable/helpful and would like to support the show, you can do so HERE. Thanks!
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Transcript
Brian's Career Journey Begins
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey folks, you're listening to the Jobs Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Hendricks. And today we have Brian with us. Brian made a career with the DEA. He had, I think it was over 23 years, and now he's gone on to greener pastures, so to speak. So Brian, welcome to the show.
00:00:17
Speaker
ah Thanks, Tim. Happy to be here. So Brian, let's start off with a little bit of your origin story, where you were born, early upbringing, and we'll just kind of walk through your education and career and go from there.
00:00:28
Speaker
Sure. So I was born into a ah military family. my My father was a career army and I was born in Germany on a military base there in Stuttgart, Germany.
00:00:39
Speaker
ah We moved back to the States so when I was young and and that's where he retired and in Virginia, Northern Virginia, Fort Belvoir for your military listeners. I went to to school in Virginia, high school in Virginia, but then I decided I needed to to to and needed a change a pace. And and after high school graduation, I moved to Missouri where I went to college in Joplin at Missouri Southern State University.
00:01:06
Speaker
I got a few degrees there and then I stayed in the area and went to graduate school in Pittsburgh, Kansas. And then I became a police officer and then from there DEA. And I guess we'll we'll save all that for the other questions.
00:01:21
Speaker
What were your degrees in that you got? So at Missouri Southern, I got ah a two-year degree in law enforcement and a four-year degree in criminal justice administration. And then I made a decision to stay in the area. was still trying to figure out you know my how I was going to achieve my goals. and And I worked on my master's degree, which was ah human resources of all things, but with an emphasis in training, which would but play a role later in my life.
00:01:45
Speaker
Did you have law enforcement on your radar pretty early on? Or, I mean, you said your dad was in the military. Did he have military police? Was that his role or did he do something completely different in the military?
00:01:58
Speaker
No, he was actually completely different. i didn't realize I had anyone in my family with prior mill ah law enforcement until later on in life when we were doing some genealogy, I found out that my grandfather ah for a very short period was a police officer, but I didn't know that going in. No, I had an interest in law enforcement, actually drug enforcement in high school, my high school years. I was seeing what drugs were doing in my community and the people around me and I just didn't like it. I didn't like the way uh, uh,
00:02:32
Speaker
you know, that they were turning out and what it was doing to people. And I made a decision that I wanted to be part of some type of solution to, you know, basically get rid of this stuff. and But I didn't know what that looked like. You know, I had that vision I had that dream, but I still didn't know how to how to achieve it I was you still figuring that out.
00:02:51
Speaker
When you got into law enforcement early on, I'm assuming you were a beat cop for a while, or do they even call it that, patrol officer? Yeah. um How long did you do that before, or did you have any, well, first of all, how long did you do that, and did you dive into any drug-related special teams or anything along those lines when you were in law enforcement before the DEA?
00:03:15
Speaker
Yeah, I joined the Joplin Police Department in Joplin, Missouri in the 1990s for five years. It was a great experience. I loved the department, the the community.
00:03:27
Speaker
It was just a really special time and learned so much. I was a patrol officer, but I did have an opportunity to be on a street crimes unit, and that really I mean, the the flame was there, but it really ignited just being able to to work you know more drug-related crime.
00:03:46
Speaker
And you know I knew I wanted to go into the DEA, but still trying to to make all that work. and But I was enjoying you know the street crimes unit and and and just patrol in general. And and like said, it what was a great experience. or It really was. ended up being a stepping stone. I don't say that enough.
00:04:04
Speaker
in a bad way, I just, you know, end up really built the foundation for, for when I would leave and and join the DEA. It was kind of a stop in your journey. Absolutely. it was, it was an important stop to you.
00:04:16
Speaker
You know, I, I was quite frankly, I was pretty naive and and there were a lot of things I had to learn and, and being able to learn them as a police officer, you know, really helped. And I think it, I'd like to believe it made me a better criminal investigator.
00:04:30
Speaker
The shift when you went from ah local law enforcement agency to a national DEA agency, what was that process like? Was it was it pretty ah easy for you because you were just in your lane and you were ready to go?
00:04:47
Speaker
Or was it kind of a shock to you, ah the just the changes in every aspect? Yeah. yeah Looking back, it wasn't too bad. I mean, I was nervous about the process. you know what if What if I fail? you know what if What if things don't work out the way that I had anticipated them to work out?
00:05:03
Speaker
But the process wasn't too bad. I mean, you know it just ah you know like that foundation that I had developed at as a police officer at Joplin really, really helped. So a lot of things that we were learning in the academy, i think I had a I had to step up. Right. I had I had some foundation there. So I think that really helped. But, you know, looking back, it wasn't too bad. i think it was more of just, you know, getting in my own head and, and tin you know, making myself too nervous and and and afraid to fail when, you know, when I knew I had, you know, when I knew I could do it.
00:05:37
Speaker
I'm assuming they go over your life with a fine tooth comb and polygraphs and the whole nine yards. Yeah. It's a long process. I tell everyone who's interested in federal law enforcement to to don't put your life on hold. I mean, it is a very long, I was actually a a ah record hire. I mean, when I say that it was about 10 months.
00:05:55
Speaker
Wow. And of course, 10 months is not a short time, but it is in DEA speak. You know, I had classmates that that were in the process for two three years before they got hired so i always tell young people who are interested in this career that you know don't put your life on hold if there's other opportunities you know take them you know because this is uh this is something that can take a while but yeah the process is long i mean you're you know from interviews to random drug screenings to you know you got to see a doctor and be medically cleared then you can take your uh physical test uh know psychological tests polygraph tests
00:06:33
Speaker
you just It's just a long process. and And I actually traveled quite a bit. you know It wasn't all in one location. i was in St. Louis. I was in Topeka. I was in Tulsa. I was in Oklahoma City. I mean, I had to travel quite a bit to to put all the pieces of this hiring puzzle together.
00:06:50
Speaker
The steps that you go through, do you find that most folks come from, they already have law enforcement experience?
Diverse Paths to DEA
00:06:57
Speaker
Is that the natural progression or do you have a lot of folks that get a ah degree in applicable field and they go right to the DEA?
00:07:07
Speaker
Yeah, so it was a mix. I think, you know, when I got hired back in the, in the nineties, we certainly had a lot more law enforcement and military backgrounds at DEA. And I, I'd still,
00:07:18
Speaker
argue that that's probably the majority of the of the hires, um but it's certainly not a pre prerequisite and and worked with a lot of amazing investigators who didn't have prior law enforcement or military backgrounds.
00:07:33
Speaker
You know, a lot of folks have degrees and I mean, I worked with engineers, I worked with teachers. I worked with people who had just a variety of backgrounds and, you know, they were successful.
00:07:47
Speaker
What's the academy like? Is it a lot of physical stuff or is it more cerebral or is it a good mix and how long does it typically last? It's a good mix. So our academy, when I was there, was about 17 weeks. I think they're probably 18 to 20 weeks now.
00:08:04
Speaker
ah you know we The academy's in Quantico, Virginia, so it's on the Marine Corps base. So the Marine Corps base, as far as federal law enforcement, is known for the FBI academy being there, but In 1999, we built our our own facility. but Prior to that, we were co-housed with the FBI.
00:08:23
Speaker
And it's, ah like I said, a 16, 17-week program. When I went through a lot of physical training, a lot of firearms training, and a lot of academic training, I'd say between the those three disciplines, we were... we were getting a lot of hours, you know, like tons of me, we probably fought, shot, uh, shot five, 6,000 rounds on the range.
00:08:46
Speaker
A lot of physical fitness, a lot of running, our physical fitness instructor, he loved to run. in fact, we got lost on a run one time and we estimated that we ran about a marathon, about 25, 26 miles in total.
00:09:02
Speaker
Good grief. Because we end up end up missing some some classes afterwards. And I think some people got in trouble but because it wasn't planned. But but
Training at the DEA Academy
00:09:10
Speaker
yeah, we we ran quite a bit. then, like said, the academics, I mean, everything's you know a lot of classroom you know law,
00:09:18
Speaker
you know drug identification, you know, and just simple investigations. I mean, just a lot of academics. And then the fourth part I would put in there was, was what we call practical application where we would take what we would learn and we would train it in a safe environment. So we would have role players who would, you know, pose as drug dealers and, you know, we would, we would meet with them or we would, we'd surveil them or we would, um,
00:09:45
Speaker
We would arrest them. you know we we would Everything we were learning in the classroom, we would actually do hands-on in a controlled, safe environment. So very professional. It was a great experience living in the dorms.
00:10:02
Speaker
you know, just just being around ah folks who share that common interest to, to you know, so to go after the biggest, baddest drug dealers and put them in jail. a lot of fun. when When you're done with the academy, um do does everybody come out with the same, is it kind of like the medical field where, okay, you graduated from medical school, now you start your residency where you're going to start applying some of the things that you've learned with some oversight and figuring out where your area of specialization will will' show up?
00:10:36
Speaker
Or how does that kind of play out when you're done and you're actually doing the job? Well, if you're an 1811, if you're a criminal investigator, then you graduate as a special agent. So everyone's on the same playing field. When you graduate, you go to your assigned office, which you know prior to graduation,
00:10:52
Speaker
And then you go through additional training and and we would call that like field ah training, f just the FT process. So much like a police officer goes through FTO process, we we call it an FTA process, field training agent process.
00:11:08
Speaker
So you're assigned a a senior agent who you know you shadow and he or she grades you for, i forget how many weeks it is, but you know there's there's there's an evaluation process every, every day, every, every shift, if you will.
00:11:23
Speaker
And then once you meet that criteria, then you're on your own. I mean, you're hopefully you'renna be working with others and a team. And, but to that yeah, when you leave the Academy, I mean, it's, it's, it's a level playing field. Now, if you have an interest in doing something more specialized, there are a few opportunities out there. you know, I think ah air wings one, or if you're a pilot, if you want to be a pilot, then,
00:11:46
Speaker
You know, after a few years of being a special agent, you know, a criminal investigator actually working the investigations, well, then you can start specializing in some of these things. But for the most part, you know, our workforce is just criminal investigation. It's just, you know, identifying these organizations and putting investigations together and working with the U.S. attorney's offices to prosecute them.
00:12:09
Speaker
What's that what's your your career like on a day-to-day? I mean, are you on Monday through Friday are you working all hours of the day and the night and the weekend, just depending on the case that you're dealing with? Yeah, it's it's you know you'd like to say it's a Monday through Friday, but it's really not. I mean, there's so many times when you come into work and then you don't go home till two or three in the morning.
00:12:30
Speaker
you know If you even go home, there's many of all-nighters that you know Really, the work dictates dictate your schedule. i mean It really does. and the lucky days, you go in at a normal time and you go home at a normal time, but you know sometimes you're not so lucky.
00:12:48
Speaker
so It's a lot of independence, a lot of freedom. you know you you might have ah Depending on your level of supervision needed you know, if you're brand new, obviously you're probably gonna have a little more guidance and supervision, but you know, as you start to learn the job, they're gonna definitely give you a lot more freedom, you know, to, to, to initiate these investigations and then, and then work them.
00:13:09
Speaker
And then sometimes that can take, you know, a few months and sometimes that can take a few years. So, so every day is a little different. that's one thing I really appreciated about the job was that every day was, you know, you really dictated kind of what you did and, and, and,
00:13:25
Speaker
it wasn't the same routine every single day. And then not only do you have your investigations, but you also support other investigations. You know, I mean, the teams I worked on, you know, typically eight, 10, 12 people, you know, they all have cases as well and they need support as well. So that might be surveillance. That might be, you know, an undercover operation. And i mean, there's all all types of avenues that the investigations can go down.
00:13:51
Speaker
The drugs back in the 80s and 90s when I was younger, it was just always cocaine, ah crack, um meth was, I think it was around, but it didn't seem to get the attention that it does. Or wasn't so common nowadays. Maybe I was just living in a bubble. But then, of course, you had marijuana.
00:14:09
Speaker
do you Are there other things out there that are that you dealt with on a regular basis that maybe the general public isn't aware of was a bigger problem than folks thought? No, I mean, I saw the evolution of pills, you know, especially the counterfeit pills.
00:14:26
Speaker
And I don't think people really, ah pi pills don't have that, that dirty look, you know, if you don't, if you sit in a bathtub at night with a beer, it's kind of like, kind of weird. But if you sit in a bathtub at night with a glass of wine and it's classy, it's classy, right? And pills have that same, you know,
The Fentanyl Crisis
00:14:46
Speaker
if if I had heroin, you look at me one way, but if I'm You know, if I have counterfeit perks or Adderall or something, you look at me a different way. And so I saw a lot of that, you know, most of the drugs we saw are the same that are in the press all the time, that methamphetamine, cocaine, heroin, marijuana.
00:15:06
Speaker
But we certainly, i certainly saw a lot of pills early on in my career and and how they really took over. And, and again, the perception that they were safer or, you know, somewhat different than the other drugs, which is, which is really silly, but, uh,
00:15:24
Speaker
But we certainly saw that. And then I saw the evolution of of opioids into to fentanyl and how that's taken over. And and I think about my my career, I mean, almost 30 years in law enforcement, I never saw a drug more impactful than fentanyl. And it's still killing people at alarming rates. One's too many, but we're losing 200 to 300 people a day to drugs now in this country. And the majority of those folks are losing their lives because of fentanyl.
00:15:50
Speaker
Is the issue with fentanyl just its potency in and of itself? or Is it, what's what's different about that besides its potency compared to the other ones? that That's the big one, it's the potency. It's the fact that at only two milligrams, it has to get into your system, but once it gets into your system, it only takes a little bit. and and And we've never had a drug like that in our drug supply. I mean, to give you an idea, 30 milligrams of heroin is considered a lethal dose.
00:16:15
Speaker
And only two milligrams of fentanyl is considered lethal dose. So that's a significant difference between the two. fact, a lot of times when I speak, especially to young people, I'll put a you know approximately two milligrams of of sugar into a little file, and then I'll do the same thing with another file with approximately 30 milligrams, because I want people to physically see the difference between the two drugs. So I think that's a big thing is that you have just a very powerful drug It only takes a little bit to kill the average human being and how that's found its way into the majority of our drug supply.
00:16:49
Speaker
a lot of these drugs you you hear about, meth and whatnot, where you take it for a while and then you start needing to take more and more and more to achieve the same high that you got when you first were introduced to it.
00:17:03
Speaker
Is fentanyl, does that operate the same or is it the low dose is what will do it you know for years. No, it does operate the same. It's the dependence and ultimately the you know the substance use disorder, the addiction. and And not only does it operate the same, I would actually argue that it like operates ah significantly ah more powerful than the other drugs.
00:17:30
Speaker
The brain and fentanyl, unfortunately, get along too well and it just overpowers the brain. it really does. And, and all drugs do that, but, but fentanyl certainly does it at a higher level.
00:17:45
Speaker
And that's what makes it even more dangerous. And, and it, that's what causes respiratory depression ultimately. um and that's, what's killing people. Is it, do folks a lot of times not realize that whatever they're consuming has fentanyl in it? Is it used to cut other, other drugs?
00:18:04
Speaker
Yeah. and that's And that's a big reason why we saw a spike in deaths. I mean, when I was a police officer, we had two, 3,000 people a year dying from drugs. And now we have 100,000 plus people a year. and And the majority of those folks, like i said, are are going to die from one drug, fentanyl.
00:18:18
Speaker
And I would argue that the the vast majority of those folks had no idea that they were even consuming fentanyl. I mean, fentanyl found its was put into our drug supply as a cut into heroin.
00:18:31
Speaker
And then from there, it went into the pills and you know Now, it's i mean if if you have a pill, there's a counterfeit, absolutely counterfeit. It doesn't have to be an opioid, by the way. It can be any type of pill a prescription pill that that ah traffickers will will counterfeit. and Then they'll they'll use meth, they'll use fentanyl, they'll use other garbage to to put it in the drug.
00:18:51
Speaker
and They like fentanyl because it's highly addictive so and it's very, very inexpensive. They put that drug in there and and it gets people hooked if it doesn't kill them and it keeps them coming back as as ah as a customer. And that's ultimately what they want.
00:19:06
Speaker
But then from there, it found its way into cocaine. It found its way into methamphetamine. and I mean, it's just, like I said, the most of our drug supply is now contaminated with fentanyl, and most people have zero clue. yeah they're They're looking for you know some Oxy. They're looking for you know Xanax bars. They're looking for cocaine. They're looking for another drug, and and unbeknownst to them, they're they're getting fentanyl, and that's what's really driving the the deaths up.
00:19:33
Speaker
the it I say it was common knowledge. I think most folks, if you say, where does cocaine come from? They're going to say Central America. seemed that seemed you know Columbia and all that seemed to be where the majority of that stuff came from.
00:19:47
Speaker
Is that still the case? And then when you're specifically talking about fentanyl, where's the hotbeds of production for that particular drug?
00:19:59
Speaker
So the the supply chain starts in China. and okay China is the number one source for the precursor chemicals to make fentanyl. So their biggest customers are the drug cartels in Mexico, specifically the Sinaloa cartel and the Jalisco new generation cartel.
00:20:18
Speaker
they ah They operate out of Mexico and they bring these precursor chemicals into Mexico for production, mass production, and then they smuggle the drugs into the US for consumption.
00:20:33
Speaker
That's... that's how most of the fentanyl comes into the U.S. that Like said, China to Mexico, Mexico right into the U.S. There are some other players involved. India definitely sells a lot of precursor chemicals. There's a couple of European countries as well, but but China by far is number one. That's why there's been so much attention on not just the trade war, but but how we can reduce the flow of fentanyl into the United States by know but negotiating with China and
00:21:04
Speaker
hold them accountable for what they're doing.
00:21:09
Speaker
When, when you're operating as a DEA agent, the, I'm assuming you get a, a project, a case, and you just dive into that.
00:21:23
Speaker
What's the typical approach? Is it kind of, I'm going to gather data first and we're going to figure out who we're dealing with, what we're dealing with, where they're located, what they're marketing, what they're pushing, what they're, you know, and then you start finding weak points in their operation. Is that, is it kind of a death by a thousand paper cuts approach to where you finally can get to the top?
00:21:44
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, that's a good way of putting it. Absolutely. I mean, first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to as much information as i can this was was the information obtained from an informant if so then you know that person and and myself are going to be sitting down for probably several hours and i want to drain all the information i can and then once i get all the information and and draw some type of picture in my mind of of what we're looking at i want to de-conflict it all i want to know everything i can you know if i have a name if i have a
00:22:17
Speaker
house i have a vehicle if i have a you know i have a ship it doesn't it doesn't matter any information i can i'm gonna i'm gonna de-conflict it i'm gonna see what information is out there if there's perhaps there's there's other investigators there's other law enforcement or other folks that are interested in the same people you know we can make those connections and you know build a build a bigger picture of of the organization what they're doing because no one operates alone at some point you know they have to acquire the drugs and you know and And we want to take that as high as we can. you know and it doesn't matter if it's in Mexico or if it's in France. I mean, we want to you know we want to we want to work the investigation as high as as possible and and make the most impact we can. So yeah, we we want to definitely – a lot of paper cup cuts, like you said.
00:23:02
Speaker
One of the things that I've always – I've just assumed, and correct me if I'm wrong – Law enforcement, it's frustrating when you have a certain set of rules and things that guide limits, put on what you can do, when you can do it, how you can operate.
00:23:21
Speaker
But you're dealing with entities that do not have any rules and they can do or will do whatever it takes to achieve their objective. Is that a constant wall that you butt up against when you're in law enforcement, specifically the DEA, when you're going after these entities that have no rules?
00:23:42
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's something that you definitely think about and, you know, it's a conversation at some point you're here, you're going to have, but you know, we have laws, we have morals, we have values. You know, at the end of the day, I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror and, and sleep at night. And that's something that, uh, these organizations that we work, you know, don't have to worry about, you know, they're, they're driven by money and they don't care who they kill or who they hurt, you know, and we're driven by something greater than that. You know, the, the, and we need to hold these people accountable and,
00:24:18
Speaker
So yeah, do we we have these conversations, but I don't, you know, i think it goes away because you just, you're doing the right thing. You know, it it is it frustrating at times? Sure. you know, and then you see the, you know, you see that they're easy money and you see that their lifestyles and, you know, that can drive you crazy as well, but you know, that they're, uh, you know, is it fair that that they're living life like that? and And so many people aren't and then they're struggling, but, but, uh,
00:24:48
Speaker
You know, you you live on these, on our morals and our principles that we're doing the right thing and and that we're making our community safer and and having a and a positive impact. So you just don't let things like that cloud you your judgment or or affect you know your work.
00:25:07
Speaker
Is it a numbers game for these organizations where we're going to smuggle, let's just use random numbers, 20 different shipments with the understanding that we're probably going to lose 25% or whatever, a certain amount will be caught.
00:25:23
Speaker
But if we keep doing this, the majority of our product will get from point A to point B. and Absolutely a numbers game. You look at the border right now. I mean, everyone's talking about how there's not many migrants come out of the border. and Yet we're still seeing a significant ah seizures in our drug numbers. In fact, they've increased over the last month.
00:25:43
Speaker
and ah And a big reason is because most drugs come into the United States through the point of entries, the poor ah point of entries, the same entry points that that you and I would take you know traveling to and from Mexico.
00:25:57
Speaker
So now our resources can be diverted to those areas and we can concentrate on drugs and other you know contraband issues. Um, but they're going to play ah numbers game. You know, we can't search every vehicle or every vessel coming into the U S as much as I'd like to say we can, or as much as I'd love to to see that happen. We just, it just doesn't, it just doesn't.
00:26:18
Speaker
So, ah you know, if, if, if I have, uh, I don't know, let's say I have a hundred pounds of methamphetamine, you know, maybe I separate that into, uh, 10, 10 pound loads and, And as long as I get a few over, then i' you know ultimately I'm in the black. I'm not in the red. And that's that's the goal of the game. and And they're very good. I mean, ah as much as I hate saying that, they they're they're very sophisticated and they're highly adaptive.
00:26:41
Speaker
So it's it's a numbers game. And and unfortunately, they're they're beating us. you know there's a There's an individual that we've worked with who who was responsible for a lot of the investigation against El Chapo with the Sinaloa cartel.
00:26:57
Speaker
And he cooperated with the government. And now he actually works with law enforcement and trains law enforcement. And he always says that you know they only lost about 5% of the loads coming to Chicago.
00:27:10
Speaker
you know The majority of the drugs, they they were smuggling into the US all the way up into Chicago. He made it. 95% of the loads made it. Isn't that incredible when you think about that?
00:27:21
Speaker
Yes, it is. Yeah. I had no idea. i was thinking 50, 60%, it would be a good day. Yeah. you know When I worked on the border down with with the ah DEA, you know we used to have a lot of meetings with the Border Patrol and they're wonderful people. And I still have a lot of friends that work for them. um But it it was always interesting to me when they would they would have these meetings and they would estimate that they were getting the majority of drugs coming across the border. And the first time I heard that, I thought they were you know punking me. I thought, what drugs are you using? Because I would love to be able to say that we're getting 80, 90, 100% of the drugs coming across the border or coming across being smuggled into the U S that is. And, and the reality of it is that's just not the case. i mean, you can just look at the seizures and the, and the consumption in the U S I mean, every single day there's a drug seizure somewhere. Right. And, and, and people that are, you know, struggling with, with substance use you know, they're not having any problems obtaining their drugs.
00:28:17
Speaker
The cartels. Is it, Is it safe to say that when you cut the head off of a snake, another head pops up? I mean, they just don't seem to want to die or go away.
00:28:31
Speaker
I'm assuming they have lineage plans where if something happens to the top guy, we have one or two other people that'll take their place. Right. Yeah. and and And one of the reasons they're so successful is just the way they operate. Most cartels operate on a on a horizontal organizational structure. It's almost like a like a franchise model.
00:28:50
Speaker
So ah and what that means is there's major decision making throughout the organization. so You know take McDonald's for instance, you know, McDonald's, I believe is still in San Francisco or not say that San Diego, California, you know, the, the, the, the franchise or franchisee, you know, if you, you and I were going to open a McDonald's in town here, you know, and we want to hire a bunch of people. That's a major decision, right? To hire people. We don't call you know, the the corporate headquarters and in San Diego and say, can we make this decision? We just do it.
00:29:26
Speaker
Same thing. we were going to fire people, you know, again, major decisions that are happening. You know, we, we make those decisions. Could you imagine if, if, if, if We couldn't, you know, like how slow would would business move, right?
00:29:38
Speaker
and And that's how most
Cartel Operations and Structure
00:29:40
Speaker
organizations work. You know, most most organizations have this organizational structure where you have someone at the top of your food chain, your your organizational chart that's making major decisions. I don't mean everyday decisions, but I mean the major ones, you know, like...
00:29:54
Speaker
you know If I worked for the Springfield but up ah Police Department, I don't wake up and I'm a patrolman. I don't wake up one day and say, I'm going to change the color of the uniform. like that's That's a major decision that would probably you know impact or probably yeah the chief and maybe even the city leaders would be involved. so Back to the cartel, you have these major decisions that are made made throughout the organization.
00:30:17
Speaker
So if if you and i all we do is load vehicles with drugs, we don't ask for permission from the highest levels. We just do it. you know Maybe you and I, all we're responsible for is killing people.
00:30:29
Speaker
you know and And someone's messed up. they've you know Maybe they've cooperated. They've lost a load. Something's happened. We kill them. And that's ah that's a major thing to do. But we again, we don't ask for permission.
00:30:40
Speaker
So you have all these folks who are just making these huge decisions throughout the organization. And what that does is it comes... departmentalizes them. It puts them in little silos. So now let's say you and I get arrested. How much damage are we really doing to the rest of the organization? We might know some folks here and there and into the cell that we're working with, but how much damage does that do to the rest of the organization? I'm not saying we shouldn't work on, but but that makes them really, that insulates a lot of their command from organizations.
00:31:13
Speaker
employees, if you will. It's a weird weird thing to say, employees, when you talk about cartels. But you know if you and I are now the leaders of the, let's say, the the Sinaloa cartel or the CJNG, and somebody who just loads vehicles up every day gets arrested or or killed or or something,
00:31:32
Speaker
you know The chances of him having any ability to to cooperate or or hurt you and i pretty limited, right? i mean Yeah.
00:31:42
Speaker
you know so So that's one of the reasons why we have to identify who who controls these cells, who who has the command of the different areas of the cartel, whether it's the manufacturing, whether it's the distribution, whether it's the the money laundering,
00:31:57
Speaker
you know ah And then go after those folks and constantly go after them and and and you know disrupt ah and as as much as often as we can.
00:32:08
Speaker
So it's very difficult. I'm not saying we shouldn't do it. you know I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference, but it's not as easy as just putting someone in jail and and thinking that it's all going to go away.
00:32:22
Speaker
The drugs that you dealt with were there. You had mentioned early in our conversation that when you were younger, you saw, I think you said you were in high school and you saw the effect that drugs had on people around you and how negatively it it impacted their life and the family members and friends around them.
00:32:41
Speaker
As you got through your career, Is that something that you kind of held on to as your motivation to, even though it sometimes feels like we just talked about everything is siloed and the goal of shutting them down almost seems out of reach perpetually, but I'm going to disrupt this as much as I can and make their life as miserable and as difficult as I can.
00:33:05
Speaker
Is that what kind of keeps you going, kept you going every day when you were in the DEA? Yeah, it is And especially towards the end of my career, as I was reflecting more on, you know, what we were doing and and if we were making a difference, I certainly was thinking about all the families impacted and the communities impacted and, and just all the, you know, my interaction and personal stories. And, and, you know, that really drove me, you know, even post retirement to, to
Life After DEA: Only Two MG Nonprofit
00:33:35
Speaker
still be involved. You know, I, I now run an, non,
00:33:38
Speaker
profit organization called only two MG. And, and our entire mission is, was, is to talk about not only illicit fentanyl, but other emerging public health threats. And, and that, that motive, that is part of my motivation. That is part of what keeps me going is, is the devastation it has, um,
00:33:57
Speaker
you know I'm one of those people that got into law enforcement to to make a difference, you know to help our communities. you know Did I want to drive fast cars and and jump out of helicopters? Well, certainly. I mean, who doesn't? That's yeah that's fun stuff. but But you know my purpose, my mission, what gets me up in the morning and what motivates me you know is making our community safer and seeing you know healthy, happy people.
00:34:26
Speaker
who thrive in our, in our communities. Where do you think the biggest impact can be had for preventing addiction or abuse? Is it middle school, high school, or is it just all over the map to where it's more of someone's personality or exposure to a certain thing that ultimately plays a part in whether they go down that dark road or not?
00:34:54
Speaker
Well, we have to reduce the demand. i mean, at the end of the day, this is ah really is a simple you know business or economics problem. Supply and demand. Supply and demand. It really is. and Put this in perspective, you know the United States accounts for about four, a little over 4% of the world's population, yet we consume the majority of drugs.
00:35:17
Speaker
That's a problem. you know And as much as you know I can demonize you know pharma or China or or the cartels or just drug traffickers in general, at the end of the day, I mean, they only exist because you know supply and demand, right? I mean, they only exist because we consume the most drugs.
00:35:35
Speaker
And you know I know when El Chapo got arrested, yeah know one of the questions he was asked is, you know will you ever stop selling drugs? And he says, when there's there's no there's no more demand in the United States, we'll stop.
00:35:49
Speaker
and It's powerful, right? and that's And that's what we have to do is we have to reduce the demand. So I think we do that through our children. you know it's it's it's We're doing our children a disservice. we We don't give them any type of training.
00:36:03
Speaker
We just send them out. And... Yeah, I'm tired of it. i'm um It's one of the reasons why I do what I do post retirement, you know, and talk to people, especially young people, is we got to give them information. It's not just saying, hey, don't do drugs, but let's let's give them factual information. Let's give them information about why they shouldn't be using drugs.
00:36:23
Speaker
So when they're in these difficult situations in life, they have the information and hopefully make good choices. Most people who struggle with substance use disorder, who struggle with addiction, start before they're 18 years old.
00:36:37
Speaker
And we got to get to our kids younger and younger and we got to give them this information. And unfortunately, parents just aren't doing this. You know, everyone I know and myself included who works in this sector, ah talking to parents is difficult. It's not that they, a lot of them don't want to hear it, but they just don't show up. They just, they just, you know, less than 1% of parents actually give a damn.
00:37:01
Speaker
And it's usually when it's impacted them, or someone close to them that they actually show up. We need people to actually be proactive and get this information and be forced multipliers, talk to their family and talk to anyone else.
00:37:15
Speaker
And until we start doing that, uh, every single day and and really making a difference with our young people, then we're going to continue to have this demand. And I think, you know, and I think it goes deeper than that as well. I think, why do a lot of young people use drugs?
00:37:32
Speaker
We know, you know, there are obviously there are some, you know, boredom or or peer pressure, but we know a lot of them, the vast majority of them are are escaping some type of trauma or some type of abuse, you know, whether it be physical, sexual, mental, know,
00:37:48
Speaker
You know, there's there's something going on in their lives. They're using drugs as a coping mechanism. And there's got to be, oh, there is safer ways to do that, safer, healthier ways to do that. And I think we need to focus on those things.
00:38:03
Speaker
We don't have those conversations. i mean, look at mental health in this country. I mean, we we have more we have more resources available now for things like, let's say, suicide, for instance.
00:38:16
Speaker
yet we have more people kill themselves every year. The numbers continue to increase, although we're addressing it you know more and more than we ever did. um you know Why? you know it's just it's it drives me nuts because the answers aren't there. we just refuse to do it as a nation.
00:38:34
Speaker
The comment that you made a minute ago about the parents not showing up or a very small percentage showing up, um I'm a parent myself. And one of the things my dad taught me pretty early on was, you you're capable of just about anything.
00:38:51
Speaker
You're capable of committing horrible crimes. Just because you're my son and I think you're a good kid doesn't mean that you don't have the ability to do bad things and make bad decisions. Do you think a lot of parents sometimes think, well, not my child. My child wouldn't do that.
00:39:07
Speaker
Oh, yeah, absolutely. We hear that all the time, especially when it comes to, you know, like fentanyl poisonings and things like that. they'll you know We hear stuff like, well, mike you know my child only smokes marijuana or only drinks alcohol. There's no way that he or she would ever use fentanyl or heroin or methamphetamine or other drugs. i mean, yeah we hear that quite a bit. Or there's just the denial that, you know, my child's good. There's there's no way they'd ever use drugs. when We hear that quite a bit.
00:39:33
Speaker
um I hear the, I call it the head in the sand, where they just out of sight, out of mind. If we don't talk about drugs, then they won't use them.
00:39:44
Speaker
And I just, i I laugh because, you know, if they've been on social media, then people are talking about drugs. If they watch movies or listen to music, people are talking about drugs. So they're going to get the, they're going to have the conversation.
00:39:57
Speaker
It's going to be entered. It's going to get in their brain one way or another. Why not give them good information yeah and accurate information and just, you know, tell them, you know, just be, just talk to them, not at them. And, and, uh, but believing there that, that somehow they're going to use drugs because you talk about it is just absolutely silly.
00:40:17
Speaker
It's not grounded in the evidence. It's not fact-based. And it just, like I said, it's just silly. What have you found to be the most effective way to get your information across to younger people? I'll just say anybody, you know, high school age down to middle school or even elementary school, because I remember, you know, when I, when I was growing up in eighties, it was the dare stuff was, was all the rage and Nancy Reagan was, you know, just say no and, and all that kind of stuff.
00:40:46
Speaker
It, it kind of gets to a point where, you're, you're all shuffled into a high school gymnasium and there's a speaker comes up and tells you a story and it kind of goes in one ear and out the other.
00:40:58
Speaker
Are there new approaches that you have found to be more impactful or that get through? I've heard this before, or I'm not going to do drugs, so I don't need to pay attention.
00:41:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think there are. And I think that's, again, I think that's talking with them and not at them. I think it's just giving them the information. i One of the things I tell young people when I talk is, hey, I'm not here to say, just say no, you know, to to the the Nancy Reagan, just say no approach.
00:41:26
Speaker
of course, when I say that, a lot of the administrators or teachers look up and think, oh no, who do we who do we bring in here? You know, but, the you know, obviously I want them to say no, but my goal is to empower them with information.
00:41:38
Speaker
you know and i really do believe that power is or that i'm sorry that knowledge is power but it has to go beyond that so i tell them hey ah knowledge is power only when you when you execute these things right you know i can i if i know drugs are dangerous and i still make the decision to use them then i didn't then i didn't properly execute my my knowledge right so i i think that's the approach is just you know just talk to them just give them the information hey this is these are these are the pressures that you have right now and and and and a lot of you are going to turn to drugs or alcohol and this is why we believe you shouldn't you know this is this is what it does this is what it does to the brain which is developing you know until you into your mid-20s uh and this is what it does to you know to to the folks around you i mean this this has such a impact in all aspects of your life and just give them that information just you know let them let them consume that information and i i think
00:42:36
Speaker
you know Kids are a lot smarter and and and they they can they can make these connections a lot more than we than sometimes we give them credit for. when they see what the drugs can do and they see impact impact how the impact can can be on them. And, you know, I call my presentation shattering dreams and the things that they they they think about their goals or dreams, and and they can see how they they just get destroyed.
00:43:01
Speaker
Then they're armed with making their own decisions. And it's a lot easier to convince people to do things when they have the information that is that it is to just tell them, you know, saying no to drugs and them not understanding why we say that you know, gets them curious. It gets them, you know, sometimes a little defiant, you know, but, but just give them the information. And then when they're in those situations, they can say, okay, I know that this is going to do X, Y, and Z. Probably not a smart idea.
00:43:29
Speaker
So they come to that conclusion themselves. So they get that buy-in, they get that ownership. And I think that's important. And I think that's, ah and I think it works, you know, and, And i've you know I've had a lot of young people come up to me and I know people in this space who who are constantly in schools and they've had a lot of success um with young people who who stay away from drugs or they find help um you know for the things that they're struggling with.
00:43:55
Speaker
So they don't turn to drugs and alcohol as a coping mechanism. Do you think that people underestimate drugs? the the word addiction, i think sometimes is thrown around so much. Yeah. You know, it's just like love. Everybody's, oh, I love him. I love her. You've known each other three weeks. You don't even know what love is, you know, but I have seen in my career, a number of snapshots of people that are suffering from addiction.
00:44:21
Speaker
And, you know, you run a medical call to a gas station bathroom at two zero o'clock in the morning because someone's passed out at the base of the toilet. And, They'll wake up and they'll say, I'm fine.
00:44:33
Speaker
And you look at them and you think, it's two o'clock in the morning. On a Tuesday, you're in a gas station bathroom with your face on the tile at the base of a filthy toilet. You are not okay.
00:44:46
Speaker
But I don't think addiction, it sneaks up on you, doesn't it? And it's just all of a sudden, it has your hooks in you. And people like to think, well, I can quit. I'll be fine. And then the next thing you know, you're two years into it.
00:44:58
Speaker
And you're you're thinking, what happened? Yeah, and and that was something that I struggled with personally for a long time understanding. It really was. um And i meet a lot of folks who every single day who just don't understand what addiction is. And that's one of the reasons why I like to talk about it is to have a little understanding of what's happening in the brain and the body.
00:45:21
Speaker
ah you know, that that'll create a little bit of empathy and understanding. And I think that will make you more effective when you're dealing with these situations. You know, and I start basic, you know, i talk about dopamine, you know, and when you use a substance, you get a dopamine release. And dopamine is a natural substance that are that our body produces. We get it from a lot of things. We get it from sex, we get it from video games, but drugs amplify that.
00:45:48
Speaker
That's the high you feel, right? That's the effort feeling you feel. and then you start chasing it because you like that feeling right we all like that that feel good sensation that we get when we do things so when drugs amplify that you you know you're like oh you know these people all lie to me this stuff feels good so you constantly use the drug more and more and more until you build a tolerance so that means you need more of the drug to get that same effect and people will eventually tell you that they never will ever feel like they did the first couple times they used that drug
00:46:19
Speaker
And, and ultimately that's going to drive, you know, a dependence or an addiction to that substance. And, and that's what people don't understand is I can't tell how many folks, you know parents who just say, I don't understand why my son or daughter just doesn't stop.
00:46:34
Speaker
And people will tell you when they're, when they're struggling with addiction, substance use disorder, stopping is not easy. The, you know, they call it dope sickness, the withdrawals. and and they'll tell you look i'm not i'm not trying to destroy relationships with my family or friends i'm not trying to lose jobs i'm not trying to you know not pay my my mortgage or my rent i'm not trying to to go to jail or or be found on that toilet seat at 2 a.m on a on a 2 p.m on a tuesday um you know but but the pain and the addiction is real for a lot of these people that
Understanding Addiction
00:47:10
Speaker
It becomes almost their way of life, right? I mean, just to put jeans on in the morning, have to that you know they have to have that that drug And again, I think that's what creates that stigma and that misunderstanding what addiction is, because there's people out there, let's face it, there are people out there who could use drugs on a Sunday night and Monday morning, they're off to work and you'd never know, right? And there's people that use drugs and the first or second time their life just starts to spiral down because, you know, the the brain just reacts differently.
00:47:41
Speaker
and and then when we have the the way we treat these folks you know that plays a huge uh role into it as well because a lot of these folks actually do want treatment they do want help but the embarrassment the shame that comes with it i mean every single study i've read talks about the number of people who really truly want to reach out for help but they're just afraid to you know they don't want to be shunned by their friends and family and and by society in general And I think, again, the more we understand about this, the more empathy and compassion. And that doesn't mean we we agree with their decisions or think there shouldn't be consequences for the things they do.
00:48:21
Speaker
I absolutely think there needs to be consequences for the things we do in life. But I also think that we shouldn't abandon these people, that we should you know support these people and and figure out how we can get them help and how we can help them you know get to recovery and and and long, you know prosperous lives.
00:48:39
Speaker
Um, but the stigma is real. I mean, that's something that, uh, you know, look look at, just look at the words we use. i mean, we, we call them addicts. We call them junkies. You know, we, you know, if if if If someone in your family had cancer and all your neighbors found out, what would happen immediately? I mean, they would cook you dinner.
00:48:58
Speaker
yeah you know They would send you cards. I mean, they would rally behind you, and unless they should, you know as this good neighbors should. But doesn't this say that same family says, oh, and our our son is also struggling from addiction, you know from drug addiction.
00:49:12
Speaker
Yeah. Everyone's going you know, they're going to turn your light, their lights off when, when you come home, you know, they're going to avoid you like, like somehow you have the plague. It's, it's, it's interesting how we treat people,
00:49:26
Speaker
as a what where's the support when when that stuff happens you know where's the where's the empathy where's the you know where's the dinners and and and rallying behind people in those times um it's very telling of a person how they treat people um when they're struggling with those things and and and and the reality is a lot of our families out there are struggling with this and especially now with fentanyl it's impacting so many people um Yeah, I think the more you understand addiction, it again doesn't doesn't mean you have to agree with any of this stuff, because I always get that all the time. Well, you think we think we should legalize drugs and think this should OK? No, I don't. I don't think any of those things.
00:50:05
Speaker
But I do think that these are human beings and I think we should we should give a damn about their health and safety. And I think we can we can do more to, you know, to help them.
00:50:17
Speaker
It is a, you use the example of cancer and then addiction. They're both diseases. One is just, one is viewed as an acceptable, um it's okay for me to be sympathetic because this person is a victim. They have cancer. They didn't do anything and they got it.
00:50:34
Speaker
And now I want to help them. Versus this other person, they're looked at oftentimes with derision because it's like, well, they did this to themselves. And yeah, they took the drug the first time, but I don't think people understand the power that those chemicals can have over the human body.
00:50:54
Speaker
And then you have someone that if I don't get that substance, I'm I'm going to go insane. i you know And that is a so really powerful effect on the mind and the body.
00:51:07
Speaker
But we do view it as polar opposites. One is self-inflicted. The other is an innocent victim. polar opposites and and we call it a moral failing. We don't call it a disease.
00:51:18
Speaker
in in And that's part of the problem. And that's what creates more of that stigma in that, in that division amongst opinions. You know, you're absolutely right. It's, it's,
00:51:29
Speaker
and And that's why I encourage people to learn more about what addiction is and what it does to the brain. I mean, it's, you know, talked about dopamine earlier. I read a study that said, you know, sex gives you about a one-time increase in dopamine.
00:51:41
Speaker
ah Heroin, the first time you use it, gives you about a 10-time increase in dopamine. good grief you're talking about a significant difference in how a drug impacts your brain than than other activities that you know typically make us you know happy you give us that dopamine release um so yeah you nailed it on the head i mean it's it's it's so powerful um on what it does to the brain and how it impacts people And I can't tell you, and I'm sure you as well, the number of people who are struggling with this, who will tell you that, hey, I don't know you know i don't want to die. i don't want to I don't want to live like this, but I don't know what else to do. This bre this drug is telling me I need to have it every couple hours of my life. And if like if like I don't have it, I go through these very, very painful withdrawals.
00:52:32
Speaker
Like I said, we call it being dope sick. Yeah. And that's a powerful thing. it's not that's When someone is suffering from that, that's not, why can't they just stop? It's not that easy. And and that's why in the treatment side, or there's two things we got to do, right? medicated assistant treatment. One is we got to wean them off the actual drug that they're on. And number two is we got to figure out why. What's the what's the cognitive behavior? what You know, what, how, why do they turn to drugs?
00:52:57
Speaker
You know, and, you know, because it's one thing to get you off to drugs, but if we don't solve the reason you're taking them, then all you're going to do is is going to go back to, to the same or or to enough, to another substance and the cycle will repeat itself.
00:53:11
Speaker
is the, and this may be different for every person, but what do you see folks say when you ask what is more difficult, the physical withdrawals or the mental withdrawals? Where, where do you find the most difficult, um, pullback or are they kind of one in the same? Really? They're kind of one in the same. I mean, maybe a little bit more of the physical stuff. You know, I, I,
00:53:36
Speaker
i I don't know. I'd say more people talk about some of the physical pain and withdrawals that they they experience, but certainly the mental as well. I think it's it's just a accumulation of the You know, when when someone says that that the pain of a drug withdrawal is more difficult than losing a relationship with, let's say, mom, dad, spouse, significant other. Wow.
00:54:01
Speaker
You know, boss, ah you know, police officer, firefighter, first responder, you know, jail, death, you know. Yeah. but that's That's pretty powerful.
00:54:12
Speaker
We've got to listen to that. We've got figure out why. you know what What happened in the brain where someone says, you know there's a video I show in and in one of my presentations. It's a young lady who's struggling from from substance use disorder. and She says, you know I know the risks.
00:54:26
Speaker
I know that I might die, but the pain associated with stopping is too great. and And that's powerful. That's not, you know, I i did a national program a couple weeks ago. was actually Bill O'Reilly. and And he kept on saying this was just a choice. This is just a choice. These people just want to get high.
00:54:45
Speaker
That's all they want. They just want to get high. And I couldn't disagree more. this This isn't about getting high. Yeah, the first couple times, sure. you know and And do I like the decision they made to use drugs? No, of course I don't.
00:54:56
Speaker
But when these people are struggling with addiction, this isn't about getting high. This is the furthest from getting about getting high. The people want to get high, but this is more about not being sick anymore.
00:55:08
Speaker
It's the worst of of all the worlds because you're chasing ah high that you're never going to get again. You're addicted, so you can't quit. And so I can see why you just absolutely spiral.
00:55:21
Speaker
Yeah, and it's just, yes. and And the more we understand that, And again, I hate i hate to have to put this disclaimer on there. Again, it doesn't mean we agree with it. It doesn't mean that we have to accept it as a normal behavior.
00:55:35
Speaker
um But the more we understand it, the more we're gonna have the the more effective we're going to be communicating and dealing with it and helping people. And you know when I wore the badge and gun...
Empathy in Law Enforcement
00:55:51
Speaker
um people didn't, they don't see that side of me, right? They just see the badge and gun. So they think, well, I'm just, they're going to be held accountable. They're going to go to jail. um But when they learn that, Hey, I want to learn more about them and what they're struggling with and how can we get them help real help,
00:56:07
Speaker
Then that that empathy, that understanding, man, let me tell you, that that really that starts that's when relationships start to form, right? And that's when people are are more willing to accept help because they see your motive. They they they understand that that you're trying to understand what they're dealing with, and they're more eager to want to work with you, if that makes sense.
00:56:30
Speaker
It does make sense. And I just thought of a question that if I'm putting you on the spot, you're free to decline to answer, but I'm not asking you to speak for the DEA as an agency, but in your time there, do you find that most of your coworkers and the folks that were in that agency,
00:56:50
Speaker
Did they have that understanding as far as, yes, this is a disease. There also are consequences for trafficking and things of that nature, smuggling. But there's also a human element here that, you know, a multi-pronged approach to stopping the addiction. So the supply and demand issue is solved.
00:57:12
Speaker
Did you see a lot of your folks or that had shared your same mentality or most of them enforcement only, these are criminals and addiction is not real or it's not that big of a deal and we're just going after you know the gun and badge approach?
00:57:27
Speaker
Interesting. you know I certainly saw a lot more that were more empathetic and understanding of what was happening, but I don't think it really drove their decisions. you know i mean,
00:57:41
Speaker
DEA is part of the the enforcement approach. And I do think that's an important part of the ah this very complex puzzle um you know to go after these biggest, baddest organizations and and hold them accountable for you know for selling these poisons.
00:57:57
Speaker
um That's tough. you know i It's also not in your job description. I mean, you can put them in touch with folks that maybe could help them, but yeah like you said, you're the enforcement arm.
00:58:10
Speaker
Yeah. And there was more DEA was doing, but as ah as a whole, you know, DEA really hasn't done a lot there. Uh, it's more just the enforcement part. and And, and, and again, like you said, that's, that's their job, right? That they they weren't, they weren't put there to, uh, to do the, the harm reduction or anything else. Um,
00:58:29
Speaker
I definitely see it more from the individuals. you know i mean, I didn't wear a lot of this on my sleeve when I was at DEA. I was really trying to understand a lot of it myself. you know I mean, I struggled with understanding addiction for for years and years. you know There's several things in law enforcement that I struggled to understand. I think ah you know when I was a brand new police officer, for instance,
00:58:51
Speaker
I had no idea what domestic violence you know was as far as, i knew what it was, you know i but as far as how powerful it was mentally, I mean i can remember you know early on, I'd go to these calls and and the you know typically, not always, but typically it was the the female that was ah the victim.
00:59:10
Speaker
And ah a lot of times you know we would go to arrest the aggressor, or the husband or boyfriend, you know the male subject in the house, and While we're we're taking him to the patrol car, taking him away, you know, it's like, don't arrest him. Don't arrest him.
00:59:27
Speaker
You know, and then when when he turns around, they'll wink at you and say, you know, thank you. They'll, they'll they'll you know, with their lips, you know what I mean? They'll quietly say thank you because that's what they really wanted, but they didn't want the aggressor to know that.
00:59:40
Speaker
Right. And I'm thinking, what what is this, the twilight zone? Like, what is happening here? Like, yeah you call the police, but yet we come and, and you know you're not cooperative or you tell us that, you know, you didn't call us and you don't want your husband arrested, even though you do.
00:59:55
Speaker
Anyway, there was a lot going on. And as a young police officer, I was just like, what the the hell am I experiencing here? and And thankfully we had some older police officers who who realized that and they got us into some training and and started we started to understand this whole this whole cycle, this whole domestic violence
Learning Complexities in Policing
01:00:13
Speaker
cycle. and and and that made us more empathetic and it made us just more understanding you know and it made us more effective in communicating and how we dealt with these situations and and again that's just one example but i think there was a lot of things like that you know and when it came to addiction you know i mean you know it was early on it was like you made your bed now you have to sleep in it and then i yeah then i really wanted to understand well
01:00:38
Speaker
I don't think they really wanted to do these things. I don't think this person wanted to be homeless or wanted to, you know, to, to, to, to break into this car because they needed money to, you know, for their next fix, you know, and again, I'm not agreeing with the things they do, but the more I started to dive into it and understand it, the more, again, I'm more effective. I think it made me, or at least it definitely gave me a better understanding and how I could deal with, with folks who are struggling with this.
01:01:07
Speaker
I recognize that in our conversation, you have said a ah number of times that you you qualify your statement with, I don't agree with what they're doing. And i I understand why you're doing that, because I do the same i do the same thing. You don't want to...
01:01:23
Speaker
you Sometimes you just can't have a conversation with someone to where i don't agree with what they're doing and I need you to understand that. I don't agree with – I'm not wanting to just legalize drugs because there's perfect – or there's plenty of examples of states and countries doing that and it just always really doesn't go well as far as what I know anyway.
01:01:42
Speaker
So you can say, i can have empathy for someone and want to help them, but also want to enforce the laws. There can, you know, you can have both viewpoints. Two things can be true at the same time.
01:01:55
Speaker
yeah You're absolutely right. And I probably actually say that too much. And I think the reason I say it is because, because the People get defensive. an assumption Yeah. And they'll get defensive and they'll say, you know, and I've had people early on when I was talking about addiction in my fentanyl presentations, I had a friend of mine say, what are you, you know, what are a tree hugger? do You think we should legalize drug?
01:02:14
Speaker
So then I thought to myself, well, I guess I need to qualify this. So, you know, I probably say it too much. you know, i probably do qualify it too much because I'm afraid that, that I'm going to isolate people's opinions if they if they if they decide that I'm on a certain hill and and that's not the hill they want to be on. you know and um But ultimately, i mean I also know that i can't if they've made that decision, I can't change it. And it's not going to it's not goingnna impact my work and it's not going to impact my ability to sleep at night.
01:02:45
Speaker
I believe um that I'm morally right and and that by helping people um We make a difference in this world. And I'm going to try to – it's a good point. I'm going to try to say that less.
01:03:00
Speaker
Well, no, it certainly wasn't a criticism at all. No, no, no. I didn't take it that way. yeah I understand exactly why you do it. the The fault is on the people that instantly close their mind off to hearing yeah an expert such as yourself speak on a topic that you know about.
01:03:15
Speaker
And that's just ah ignorance and arrogance on their part if they're not even going to hear you out. So yeah um but so let's let's jump back into your career, the DEA stuff. You've you've amassed 23, I think was years, a little over 23 years.
01:03:32
Speaker
What was well what was the what was the catalyst that made you say, I think my time with the DEA has come to an end and I'm going to move on to the next chapter in my life?
01:03:46
Speaker
Yeah, that was tough.
01:03:49
Speaker
Love DEA. im Still involved with DEA. I'm actually on the board of directors for the Agents Association. So I do a lot with them nationally, still engaged with a lot of folks, very aware of of a lot of things happening at DEA.
01:04:04
Speaker
Um, you know, I was, my last assignment was in Springfield, Missouri, where here, where I was the resident agent in charge. I was in charge of the DA office and, you know, the 26 counties in Southwest Missouri that we're responsible for, ah great people around me, great relationships,
01:04:23
Speaker
it was a very difficult decision to leave and I had more years that I was capable of working. Um, but, uh, I had the itch to do something different and and I really wanted to be involved in more training and the teaching and the speaking aspect Um, that's something I've been interested throughout my career. I was, I was always the guy, even as a police officer where, don't know, let's say the, let's say the Rotary Club needed a speaker and no one wanted to do it, you know, Hey Townsend, are you interested? I'm like, yeah, absolutely. You know, and I was, I was the guy that would, you know, the red ribbon weeks in the schools,
01:04:58
Speaker
You know, I've always had an interest in talking to people, especially young people. um and then, you know, my master's degree, human resources with an emphasis in training, you know, that. um So I had an idea of of of of the power of training and how to put curriculum together.
01:05:14
Speaker
um And then every opportunity throughout my career, you know, in DEA, I would always raise my hand and I would say, yeah, i can I can go talk to that school. I can go talk to that organization.
Leadership and Development at DEA
01:05:24
Speaker
And then when I went to Quantico, so so four years of my 23-year time with DEA was spent at Quantico at our training academy where I was in charge of most in-service training. And then I actually got to start DEA's leadership and development training unit.
01:05:39
Speaker
And that really, I mean, again, the the the fire was there, but that really just got it going. um So when I came back out in the field, I was happy to come out in the field and and be involved in enforcement operations again.
01:05:52
Speaker
But then i I knew what I wanted to do. It was set. you know I always had the interest in in going into training, but then i was now it was just a matter of of you know figuring it all out, the logistics of it all. And So I left. I left in 2022 and i started my own training and consulting business, which I still do. And then that led me to work with the the Mid-States Organized Crime Information Center, which still work with them. And then that led me to start my own nonprofit organization, and which I still do as well. So
01:06:26
Speaker
Yeah, that was the it was a difficult decision, um but no regrets. I love DEA and I loved ah miss the people I work with and I miss the work that we did. But i just I wanted to write a new chapter in my book. you know I wanted to young enough to to do something different. and i And I thought that I could have an impact in a different way. and and and that's what I hope I'm doing. i hope I'm impacting you know our world and in a positive yet different way than I did at DEA.
01:06:55
Speaker
We talked earlier in our conversation about the cartels and getting their product to their customer is kind of a numbers game. The more that they send, the more gets through.
01:07:07
Speaker
Do you, I guess you could view your approach to speaking with people also as a numbers game. The more times you speak with an audience, the more times you're going to get through to some people and it just spreads and spreads and spreads.
01:07:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. And I think that's, you know, because the reality of it, there are people out there who are going you know, roll their eyes or or make a decision that's, you know, contrary to what I'm speaking about, you know, especially young people.
01:07:39
Speaker
but But I do know that there are young people that are, you know, making good decisions because of the the information that I've given them. And and And that's another motivating factor of what I do, what I do. And I've had a lot of them talk to me afterwards. You know, they come up to you and they hug you and and they tell you some really deep personal stuff that they're struggling with and and your heart just goes out to them. But, you know, that that's when you you feel, though, that you're making a difference. um
01:08:05
Speaker
Gosh, so many great examples. i had a police officer in one of my classes for first responders who, you know, she decided to start carrying Naloxone, Narcan. And that week, because their department had a choice.
01:08:18
Speaker
And that week, she saved someone's life from a heroin overdose. That that same week with the exact naloxone that I gave her. um you know that and and And that's a life that that has a potential now to to get into and to recovery and and and do amazing things, right?
01:08:34
Speaker
Um, I had an officer who we talked about the exposure myth and I had an officer who was afraid to be around fentanyl. And and after we spoke, uh, he got aggressive and started and started working narcotics again. And he's gosh, he's taken just, just tons and tons of fentanyl off our streets. Um, and then there's just the kids who, you know, I mean, I, I, I did some work at Missouri state and and the first time I spoke there was probably a month or two later. I was at unrelated event like a month or two later.
01:09:04
Speaker
And ah one of the students walked up to me. I had no idea idea who he was. He was just one of the you know a few hundred that were in the room and and said, hey, you know the the words i I spoke really gave him a lot to think about. And he'd been you know dabbling with drugs and And, uh, you know, was, was making better decisions now. And, and, and that, those are, that's powerful, right? I mean, those are, that's just emotional stuff that, that gets me going, but, but, you know, back to your question, it's a numbers thing. I do. I do i think am my naive to think that a hundred percent of those kids in that room are not going to use drugs or, or, or stop using drugs. No, of course not. But, uh,
01:09:43
Speaker
But for the ones who where it does sink through and makes that difference, then, man, that's a great thing. I can see it too. Just, it's, it's a snowball effect. You help one, then they may help somebody who helps somebody.
01:09:54
Speaker
And it just, your work just keeps kind of growing as you do it. And that's gotta be, that has to be satisfying to know that you are making a difference. Very rewarding. And that's what the times when, you know, when I get up in the morning and I think, you know, Brian, am I doing the right thing? And You know, um do do I keep going? You know, i I put a lot of my personal money into this and I don't say that to brag. I just, you know, that's, that's not easy to do. I don't, I don't have a money tree I can just shake.
01:10:22
Speaker
Yeah. um But I believe in what I'm doing. And, you know, there's this, there's this line that, you know, make the world of, or be the change you want to see in this world.
01:10:33
Speaker
um And I just believe in that. I really do. And, and, and to me, it's, again, it's not just about, And it's not words, it's actions.
01:10:44
Speaker
you know I can say anything I want to say. We all can, right? But it's it's what we do that really matters in this life. And and you know i don't like I'm not foolish enough or naive enough to think I'm going to be remembered when I leave this world.
01:10:57
Speaker
I'm hoping that for the few folks who do remember me, it's for the positive change I made in their life. Mm-hmm. Let's talk about, let's get back to a little bit of the nuts and bolts stuff of the DEA.
01:11:11
Speaker
um I want to get your, you're just some basic answers. What did you like most about your job and what did you dislike most about your job over your time at the DEA?
Impactful Investigations and Travels
01:11:24
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I loved working with the different people. I mean, one of the things that's cool about DEA is we're not, we're not bound by, you know, city lit limits or, or state limits. I mean, we, you know, I got to travel quite a bit.
01:11:37
Speaker
I mean, I think about some of the cool investigations that I was a part of. I mean, I worked in XTC case once where it was coming in from France and to Miami. And then from Miami, it was being shipped all across the country. And,
01:11:50
Speaker
you know And I got to travel to to a lot of cool places and not only that, but in a lot of investigations, but just working with amazing people, so many dedicated professionals who who had the same principles, who had the same heart, you know that but understood what we were doing and and is making it their life's mission to you know to eradicate this this crap out of our communities, but just to people, to people, people, people.
01:12:15
Speaker
um I think some of the frustrations and was just you know Early on, you know why weren't why weren't things why weren't people being held accountable? Why weren't people being prosecuted? you know Why did people get lesser sentence than they deserved? um And then you deal with those things. you You realize that those things are out of your control and and that you know me being upset by a decision that a prosecutor or a judge or or or someone else made that probably I can't, you know, why am I going to let that dictate how much sleep I get?
01:12:47
Speaker
You know, my job is to do the best, the best I can uh, and go home safe. And, uh, you know, and that's what I try to do every day. Were there a lot of technological changes in your career? I can see starting you know in the early 2000s and then ending in 23, the AI was starting to show up a few years ago. You've got drones. you've got you know Everything is is on a computer now and our phones and stuff. and
01:13:19
Speaker
It lost, I would assume, a lot of the old school. Or maybe they still use that because – it's more effective than the technology stuff. There's no tracking. You it's interesting. It's fun seeing the the how technology evolved.
01:13:35
Speaker
Certainly, you know, the thing about investigations is the foundation's the same. You know, if if if if you're my target, you know, my goal is to put you in jail, right? Or to build a case that ah can that can hold you accountable for what you did.
01:13:50
Speaker
And one of the things that we're really good at DEA is exploiting communications. So you know maybe when I started, it was beepers. if and And still we had pay phones. You're talking my language.
01:14:01
Speaker
Yeah, and and landlines. yeah you know And now it's it's encrypted apps. you know it's It's Telegram, it's WhatsApp, you know it's it's things like that. So the technology has changed, but the investigations really really haven't, right? I mean, it you know maybe back then,
01:14:18
Speaker
used your beeper but now i just i hit you up on you know on whatsapp or something i mean we're still going to try to exploit that communication it might be a little bit more difficult now because of the encryption and because of the you know the laws and things like that but uh at the end of the day i mean the goal is the same so yeah i mean i definitely saw evolution there which was which is and i continue to see that right i mean look at law enforcement now it's just it's amazing we you know, before long, you're going have a, you know, 911 you're going to have a drone above that person's house, you know, automatically sending, and this is already happening in some cities, you know, sending, sending video feedback to, to the officers that are responding or any first responder that's responding. So you have a visual of what's happening. And then if there's a vehicle that leaves, you know, be able to capture the tag.
01:15:08
Speaker
If there's people that leave, you know, maybe we can do facial rec or something like that. i mean, there's, it's going to continue to get just
01:15:16
Speaker
bigger and bigger and and more effective. And, and the bad guys, unfortunately, like we talked about earlier, they don't have to worry about the law and and and morals. so So they're going to figure out ways to exploit these technologies.
01:15:29
Speaker
And we're going have to figure out ways to, uh, to stay within the law and, and also exploit these technologies and, and, and, you know, and successfully investigate these, these crimes.
01:15:40
Speaker
But, uh, certainly saw an increase in AI. Oh my goodness. I had a, um, um doing a project right now. I'm working with a guy, we're trying to do some AI training and, and he blew my mind away with all the different, uh, software and platforms and, uh, oh my goodness, that's a whole different discussion there. Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm hoping to get an AI expert on the show at some point because it's just, it's, it's percolating into every area. Every occupation is going to have AI in the next five years. It'll be a big part of our jobs, but,
01:16:11
Speaker
yeah what types of What types of soft skills did you see the successful agents in the DEA? was there Was there a common set of skills that if you have these two or three soft skills, that usually lends itself to success?
01:16:27
Speaker
Well, I'd say communication by far, 100% communication. you know Not just talking, but I mean, just you know listening, being an active listener, your nonverbal, your written communication.
Essential Soft Skills in Law Enforcement
01:16:41
Speaker
I mean, just, you gotta be good at your communication skills.
01:16:46
Speaker
You gotta clearly and effectively convey information, um you know be an active listener. we Far too often when we hear people talk, we're We're thinking about that response in our brain. in And I would encourage people to, to yeah, you know you want to know what to say, but but what what is this person actually asking you? What are they actually saying? you know Where are they coming from? you know Actively listening to them. um oh Time management, you know I think that's another big one. That's something that sometimes i struggle with, je just you know organizing and prioritizing, you know whether it's a task, whether it's a...
01:17:26
Speaker
you know, whether it's a deadline, um, you know, problem solving, we talk about this on a lot of our training as well. Just, uh, not just problem solving, but, uh, you know, what comes, what comes with problem solving, uh, uh, creative thinking, decision-making, you know, being creative, you know, it,
01:17:48
Speaker
But if you had me narrow that list down to one, I would by far say communication. i think that is the most important soft skill that all of us can, if if we can get better at it, it'll definitely make us more efficient.
01:18:02
Speaker
Do you find most of your coworkers were ah typically extroverted, introverted, or was it just a mix of all kinds of personalities? you know It's a mix. And it's so funny because and law enforcement, they're going to tell you that they're all extroverted. They're all A personalities. You hear that all the time in law enforcement.
01:18:22
Speaker
And I worked at the training academy for four years. And not only did we do, truth I was in charge of most in-service training. And like I said, I get to start the leadership and training development unit. And none of our training was internal, even though in-service is.
01:18:35
Speaker
um We did a lot of external training and brought a lot of our state and local partners in. And some of the training we were doing, especially specifically in our leadership classes was was personal assessments. So I'm sure you've heard of like ah Myers-Briggs or DISC or Insights. i mean, we we used several of them. In fact, I'm DISC certified.
01:18:55
Speaker
And, you know, and in emotional intelligence. mean, we did a lot of these these types of personality tests. And we would always ask people at the beginning, hey, who here, you know, how what percentage of this room is going to be like at that percentage?
01:19:09
Speaker
that personality, you know, the one we always hear about the extrovert. And it's almost always, Oh, probably 90%, 95%. You know, if you're going to be in law enforcement, that's your personality and blah, blah, blah.
01:19:21
Speaker
And without fail, cause we'd always have them take the test before they actually got to training. And then we'd give them the results later there. It was, it was never 80 or 90%. It was, it was even seldomly over 51%. It was, you know, and then I started doing this stuff with just law enforcement because thought, was this DEA? Is there, is there a difference between DEA? And like said, we had a lot of law enforcement mixed into our training, but then i was doing law enforcement only training, the same thing. I could, I could give them the disc or or Myers-Briggs and,
01:19:50
Speaker
A ton of them would not be that extroverted personality. and what I think what they what they fail to understand is is it doesn't mean you can't be an extrovert. you know like ah now I'm not naturally an extrovert, but if you put me in that bucket or if you put me in a situation, I'm going to reach into that bucket and find in find and find a way to...
01:20:09
Speaker
to to to to express that personality you know you know what i mean especially in a law enforcement setting or a first responder setting where you might be the guy that's quiet and timid or sits back but in certain situations you're gonna need to you know ah be a little more assertive. And, and I think we, we, we confuse that with, well, everyone's extroverted and, and that's just not the case.
01:20:35
Speaker
So you, the word timidity that you used, you can, you can still be a confident go-getter, but not, but not be noisy about it. You know, and sometimes I think extroverted and type A is equated with a lot of noise and boisterous activity and over the top I'm alpha and all that other stuff, but I've met plenty of guys and I'm sure you have too, that are very, very sure of who they are and they are type a, but they're just quiet about it.
01:21:03
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. and And that's one of the reasons, like I use the DISC the isc personality tests. It's what I got certified in. and That dominant personality, the D, they're usually the extroverts, right? They're usually the ones who they have the opinion and they want you to hear it.
01:21:18
Speaker
yeah And some of them are confident, but some of them aren't. Even though they're loud and proud, they're they're not always they're not always confident. you know they're just They're just quick to make their decisions and they want that work done. You give them a task and they're going they're going to give you a solution pretty quick. It may not be right, but they're going to give you a solution quick. And they're goingnna they're going to tell you what they think about that. and And if you take time or if you if you appear more timid and and you more um calculated, you know they're going to they might even look it a sign of weakness. But you're right. I mean, there's their' strengths to all that, you know all the personalities.
01:21:51
Speaker
uh, uh, can absolutely get along. If you're willing to, uh, you're willing to understand that we just, you know, we just approach things a little differently in life. You know, it doesn't, doesn't mean that one, one way is better than the other. It just means that we're different.
Embracing Failure for Success
01:22:06
Speaker
What's your best advice on dealing with failure? ah Don't be afraid to fail. And I know that's a hard thing to come to to terms with, but, you know, fail forward.
01:22:16
Speaker
um I think about all the great people who've done amazing things, who aren't afraid to fail. You know, we hear all the entrepreneur stories, but I mean, I can't remember the quote, but like Michael Jordan, right? Michael Jordan talks about how he lost 26 game-winning buzzer shots or something like that, 26, 27, whatever it was.
01:22:39
Speaker
you know And he missed you know probably thousands of shots in his life. but he But he says, I wouldn't be Michael Jordan had I not... made those attempts. Right. And and I think now that's powerful. And, and I think about my own life and and the things that, you know i was afraid to do. I mean, look, look at my, so my, you know from, from going from Joplin police department to the, to the DEA. I mean, I was afraid to fail. I truly was. I was, all I kept on thinking was, is I hope if things don't work out, Joplin lets me come back.
01:23:07
Speaker
You know, I hope my job's still there and safe. Um, But I'm glad that that i that I took that that leap, right? i'm I'm glad I took that step forward because it just opened up so much more in my life. And that was a wonderful thing.
01:23:22
Speaker
you know Just don't be afraid. And I know that, again, i know we don't like the pain that's associated with it. and and and And we want to avoid that at all costs. But think about all the joy that can be associated with it as well and all the missed opportunities out there if we just don't take that step forward.
01:23:40
Speaker
Yeah. The example that you used of Michael Jordan is a perfect one. i grew up in the era of Michael Jordan, and I used to just be glued to my TV when he was playing. And i I think it's a safe assumption that he's considered to be the best basketball player of all time.
01:23:58
Speaker
And I know there's some people argue, but that's for another that's for another episode. But the thing – I think people seem to forget that Michael Jordan, the best basketball player of all time, multiple championships, defensive titles, defense you know like a steel trap, just the best at everything – That guy made mistakes. He missed shots.
01:24:23
Speaker
People got past him. He got dunked on. It happens to even the best. And sometimes all we focus on is, well, if I'm not that, then I'm a failure.
01:24:34
Speaker
And it's like that person is a failure as well. They just learned and kept getting better over time. Absolutely. And there's so many, eggs I absolutely agree. and There's so many, I mean, look at Steve jobs, you know, uh, from Apple. I mean, he was fired.
01:24:49
Speaker
Right. And then he went back to Apple later on and made them a household name. Right. I mean, who doesn't, you know, how many iPhones and look at Apple, you know, I mean, you just go back historically. I mean, there was another quote, uh, Thomas Edison, you know, who who, you know, the light bulb, right. he talks about, uh,
01:25:08
Speaker
he talks about he he didn't fail with the light bulb. He just found several thousand ways that it wouldn't work you know until he found the one that did work. Right. And, and again, there's so many examples in history and, and we just gotta, sometimes you just gotta take that leap forward and realize and and think about the, you know, think about the, the, the success that's in front of us.
01:25:33
Speaker
Well, and if you're failing, that means you haven't given up. You're still trying. so Yeah, that's true. you know Now, if you keep failing, maybe you need to step back and take a look at what you're doing, but still.
DEA Pay Structure and Career Advancement
01:25:43
Speaker
So I like to talk about pay a little bit, and I'm not asking you what you make, but when someone works in the DEA,
01:25:50
Speaker
ah Can you give me some rough numbers as far as when you start, you're going to be in this range and then as you work your way up to you know upper middle management, whatever most folks end up, then you might end up here?
01:26:03
Speaker
Yeah. So so that was that was a big reason why a lot of folks were going to federal law enforcement because of the pay. I mean, it's it's substantially different from you know when I left Joplin, I was making... I know it's a lot different now, but when I left Joplin in 1999, I was probably making 25, 26 year. Yeah. And I know it's a lot different now, but this was, you know, of course, you the cost of living was a lot less too. Yeah, it was.
01:26:27
Speaker
um When you go to the DEA, you start as a, ah usually a GS9 on the pay scale. Yeah. And then the one thing about federal law enforcement like DEA, if you're a criminal investigator, if you're what they call an 1811, you make 25% more than what the pay scale shows.
01:26:46
Speaker
So what that is, it's it's ah it's called ah availability pay. So instead of instead of overtime, it's built in overtime. So you're expected to work 50 hours a week.
01:26:59
Speaker
If you work 51, then guess what? You're only getting paid what they pay you. If you work 100, and that's happened quite a bit, you're only getting paid what they pay you. So they give you this on the front end, and they assume that you're going to work on average about 50 hours a week.
01:27:15
Speaker
If you're a good and criminal investigator, you're probably working a lot more than that. But yeah. So a GS9 in the government, the last ah time I looked was probably about 60, 61,000 and then So that's another that's another fifteen thousand ish So a brand new agent at the academy is going to making about 75 or so, you know, a thousand dollars. Now that also depends on where he or she is stationed. Okay. So you're assigned to, well, Springfield, Missouri is considered what we call rest of the U.S. There's no extra locality pay here because they found that the cost of living is cheaper here than let's say, you know, San Francisco or or Washington, D.C.
01:27:59
Speaker
sure um So if you're in an area like that, you are going to get a bump. Probably still not going to be able to live in a place like San Francisco because who can? Yeah, I know it. But you might make $100,000 at the Academy going to a place like San Francisco because of the extra probably 25 or 30% bump in pay I know people are thinking, well, that's a lot of money. Yeah, it's a lot of money in Springfield, Missouri, but yeah in San Francisco, it's not a lot of money. and Not at all. you're When you're paying $1.5 million for 1,300 square foot townhome that built 1790- thirteen hundred square foot townhellm
01:28:30
Speaker
that was built in seventeen ninety You know, and you got a 30 year mortgage. Yeah. Your hundred thousand dollars is not going far. That's why that's why so many people can't live in San Francisco because it's unaffordable.
01:28:44
Speaker
But yeah. So back to your question, I would say about seventy five thousand dollars on average, depending on where you live. And then you should expect a, it's called a ah step increase. I'm sorry, a grade increase every year, at least for the first couple years.
01:29:01
Speaker
So you'll go from a nine to an 11. If you're in the FBI, you'll go from a nine to a 10 unless they've changed it and then And then from an 11 to a 12, and then 13 is what we call journeyman. That's the highest level you can get DEA before being a supervisor.
01:29:18
Speaker
So if you have a career agent who doesn't go into management and he's been there for more than, let's say, five or six years, then that person is a GS-13. And that's pretty good money. So you're talking about probably, i don't know, probably $100,000 $110,000 and supervisory responsibilities. you're not...
01:29:34
Speaker
and no supervisory responsibilities no you know you're not you don't have anybody to take care of except for yourself. So pretty good money and and pretty good, pretty good, you know, health and and and other oh a benefits package.
01:29:49
Speaker
Yeah. Benefits is pretty good as well. They're trying to chip away at that right now with our, their current Congress. So yeah that'll be interesting because that will absolutely impact recruitment for agencies like DEA, FBI, you know, HSI, ATF,
01:30:07
Speaker
atf Um, because when you can, you can stay at your department and you have the safety and, and, you know, you have your home, you have your, your friends, you have your, your, the comfort level.
01:30:19
Speaker
Um, and then I tell you, Hey, come to the, you know, come to the DEA and they're like, well, how much, what's the difference? And, you know, well, you're going to get paid $2,000 more, but we're going to move you all across the country.
01:30:30
Speaker
brother You may not be interested in that right back, back when I left, I was because I left one is I wanted to do the job, you know, and I would have done it for free. Don't tell him I said that, but I would done it for free.
01:30:41
Speaker
But, but number two is ultimately, I mean, I got to pay, and pay my bills. Right. And I went from a 25, 26,000 year, year job to, you know, I think at the time we were probably 40. Um, but once you hit that GS 13 level, you, you know, you're making good money, you know, and,
01:30:57
Speaker
So I would imagine that if someone wanted to really dive into, they can look up a GS pay scale and then that that would give them a rough idea. You probably could even Google the DEA pay scale and you might find some more dialed in numbers depending on your grade.
01:31:11
Speaker
Yep. And then also those pay skills will will break it down by locality. So if you if you know that you're going to get hired and you're going to go to St. Louis, you're going to go to Phoenix or or Chicago, and you can you can actually look for those locations in there.
01:31:24
Speaker
And if you go to a country, not a country, but a state that doesn't have any of that, have its own locality, then you're what they call the rest of the U.S. Like Springfield, Missouri rest of the U.S. So yeah, they're all online. It's just add 25% to whatever you're looking at. Just look for a LEO pay scale, GS pay scale, law enforcement officer, GS pay scale, and then add 25% to the grade. Not too bad.
01:31:50
Speaker
to the gray ah too bad Do you have much say in in where you want to go as far as, you know, I'd like to be in this part of the country or that, or when you're early on, it's just kind of, you can tell us when you about it. When I got hired, the answer was no, absolutely no. They they told you in the academy where you're going. Now they would give you a wish list.
01:32:12
Speaker
They would say, hey give us three places that you'd like to go. And sometimes they would give you a list of, let's say there was 50 people in your academy class. And they would say, here's the 50 openings we have. Where would you like to go?
01:32:24
Speaker
um But they've changed that over the years. Now, and ah in ah in an attempt to better recruit people, because they were losing people. You know, you you and I would go to the Academy and then we'd find out we're moving to San Francisco and you know, we can't do that, right? It's too expensive. And, and or we didn't want to do that.
01:32:40
Speaker
We would quit. So now what they're doing is they're telling people when they make that call, they'll say, Hey Tim, we got a position in Phoenix. Are you interested? Then you just say yes or no. And if you, if you say yes, boom, you got an Academy date. If you say no, then you know, they have to decide what they're goingnna do. Are they going to, they're going to recycle you and wait and give you another opportunity to,
01:33:00
Speaker
for a different city or are they just going to look at, look to the next person and move on? You know, it's, that's always changing. So, yeah. Well, I mean, they have needs depending on where the needs are at. It's sometimes like, look, we, I know you want to go to Hawaii, but we don't work chock full in Hawaii. So, you know, you're going to Sheboygan, Wisconsin or something like that. chipwaa Yeah. Yeah.
01:33:20
Speaker
Yeah. been there Yeah. So you've wound up your career in the DEA as we land the plane here.
Eagle Six Training and Public Health Focus
01:33:27
Speaker
what Talk to us about the the ah Eagle Six training that you have going now and you're doing after your time with the DEA. Walk us through that, where they can find you, what is it that you do and all that good stuff.
01:33:41
Speaker
So Eagle Six Training is my training and consulting business. We're on the internet at www.eaglesixtraining.com. And the six is not the number. I'm sorry, the six is the number. It's not spelled out. So E-A-G-L-E six, T-R-A-I-N-I-N-G.com.
01:33:58
Speaker
and Okay. And we offer training, consulting, and speaking services. A lot of our our current ah clients are law enforcement, but we do have business clients as well. and And we're not, you know, as you can see, most of the folks that I'm working with are prior law enforcement, prior DEA. But, you know, that's just where we came from.
01:34:21
Speaker
We have skills that translate into all organizations. all industries. And we do a lot of training and and and consulting with various people out there and various organizations out there. And Been happy to custom ah develop and deliver you know whatever your your training needs might be.
01:34:47
Speaker
The emphasis is typically on leadership. I've done some other stuff as well. um you know We've been asked to do some like resilience and trauma type training. um And I always bring that back to leadership. I think leadership is another way that we can help people and organizations be better.
01:35:04
Speaker
So my other endeavor is is my nonprofit organization. That's only 2MG, www.only. And then again, just the number two, it's not spelled out, and then mg.com.
01:35:18
Speaker
And that's the nonprofit. you know We were formed to address illicit fentanyl. Our entire board is retired DEA agents. um But we've now since expanded to to address emerging public health threats as well.
01:35:31
Speaker
You know, so goes beyond fentanyl. But yeah, that's me. That's what so keeps me busy. Keeps me quite busy. Yeah, sounds like it. Well, I got to tell you, Brian, um this was, I was looking forward to this interview. You know, it's not every day that I get to talk with a DEA agent that's got so many years of experience and and insight. So I do thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to to be a guest on the show.
01:35:55
Speaker
Oh, no, my pleasure. I appreciate the opportunity and it was a good conversation. Thank you. And that wraps up another episode of the Jobs Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Hopefully you found that interesting.
01:36:07
Speaker
As always, I wait until the end of an interview to ask you to like, subscribe and share. I feel it's important that I earn that support from you. Thanks again, and we will see you on the next one.