Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Mike - Teacher/Principal/District Administrator
27 Plays2 days ago
For over 3 decades Mike dedicated his life to helping kids learn, then leading the way as a principal, and then as a district administrator. He's seen a lot of changes in teaching, school safety, leadership, coaching and many other aspects of educating our kids. We talk about what makes a principal successful and how best to change with the roll as you move from teaching to leadership. We discuss soft skills and personality traits that lend themselves to being a successful principal and we even throw a little bass fishing advice into the mix. Mike is a prime example of who you want guiding your children and we need more leaders like him in our schools. Thanks Mike!
If you liked this interview and would like to support the show, you can do so HERE. Thanks!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Mike's Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey folks, you're listening to the jobs podcast. I'm your host, Tim Hendricks and our guest today, his name is Mike. He started as a teacher, then he was a principal and then he was a superintendent.
00:00:12
Speaker
He's worked his way all the way up in the education system to the pinnacle. And I also think that he is one of the best bass fishermen that I have ever had the privilege to meet. He won't share any of his secrets yet, but maybe we'll get some insight into the the lures that he uses, but welcome Mike.
00:00:30
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you for having me. And I will say that, you know, a good bass fisherman, like a good magician, ah never reveals his secrets. So you can ask all you want and I'll just smile. And and the only the only way that you can learn the secrets is if you'll agree to go fishing with me.
00:00:47
Speaker
So i I've got to find time to take you up on that. But between both jobs and podcasting, I'm a busy man, but we'll make it work this spring. So I understand. I certainly understand.
Mike's Upbringing and Family Influence
00:00:58
Speaker
Well, Mike, let's go ahead and start with your early upbringing, where you were born, your childhood family, and we'll just kind of start off your story from there. Okay. um I'm actually ah ah a transfer from Colorado.
00:01:13
Speaker
I grew up out in Boulder, ah right at the foothills of the Rockies, and graduated from high school. Actually, I spent one year in Denver.
00:01:25
Speaker
My yeah ah parents, um you but you know, mentioned or we were thinking about upbringing. my My parents actually were divorced when I was pretty young at seven.
00:01:37
Speaker
And so I had influences not only from ah my mom growing up, but also my dad, obviously. But I had um two full sets of grandparents and a great-grandmother along the way. And and also had, a course, my stepfather, who um I kind of attribute my work ethic to.
00:01:57
Speaker
um He was a general contractor and And he had a way of shaping you by you know not giving you too many options to say no,
Transition from Radio to Education
00:02:07
Speaker
right? So um we ended up, um as I said, I was out in Colorado, graduated from high school.
00:02:15
Speaker
And because of my dad's influence, I was actually thinking about um going into radio, right? my wow okay My dad had been a radio station manager, salesman, ah as as long as I could remember.
00:02:34
Speaker
And um at the time that I graduated from high school, that that's that's what I had my eyes kind of focused on. I got to college out in Wichita.
00:02:46
Speaker
And what took me there was actually a football scholarship and ah needed to have school paid for. So Friends University, ah a small liberal arts college out in Wichita, Kansas, offered a scholarship. But one of the other things was they offered as a brand new um degree there was mass communications. They had just opened a radio station on campus.
00:03:10
Speaker
And so I really thought that that was um the ticket. And I had a great ah station manager there. His name was ah Bill Brandt, who ah if if you recognize that name, you'll know that he was very highly regarded in NPR radio.
00:03:28
Speaker
and Okay. Yeah. So Bill Brandt said, hey, let's let's get you through the program so you can get up and get to work for your dad. And and along the way, though, as many students can can you know attest to this happening to them, I
Discovering a Passion for Teaching
00:03:47
Speaker
i ran into a professor there that um she wasn't intending to be mean or try to redirect me, but she instilled in all of us the reality of what it means to go into radio, which quite honestly, um like a lot of professions, you start at the bottom, you're not given any grace as to who you grew up with or, yeah or you know, who who you're, you know,
00:04:11
Speaker
financial you know ah person was that's that's paying dividends to the school. It didn't matter. it was basically, you're going to have to work at it. And when we began to talk about radio, you talk about sales.
00:04:26
Speaker
And um that was something that I i can't take disappointment you know that often. They say that you know if you if you contact 100 people about selling airtime commercials, they 10 of those 100 might be interested enough to listen, and one out of the 10 might say, yeah, why don't you come over and sit down and we'll talk about what we might want to do. So 99 people are basically saying no, and one of them might be a sale. And so unless you're unless you're really good at it, you're going to you're going to find that it's very frustrating because
00:05:03
Speaker
And not only that, um there was, um you know, some other factors going on at the time. And um so I changed my major when I was in college from mass communications to kind of the general studies, not knowing what I wanted to do.
00:05:22
Speaker
And I had to go over to the preschool that was on campus there. My sister was, was in um her getting her degree in teaching.
00:05:33
Speaker
And I had a chance to interact with some little ones, uh, preschool age, uh, kiddos. And that start the, you know, that started the, the desire to work with, uh, children, young people.
00:05:49
Speaker
And, um, the thing that kind of steered me towards my actual teaching degree, which was middle school ah language arts was i couldn't handle the chaos of those little kids.
00:06:02
Speaker
allowed for me just I mean, it's like, it literally, as they say, it's like herding cats or is yeah the picture that I give everybody is if you take the ant farm and shake it up, that's what you get in your kindergarten class. And,
00:06:16
Speaker
So i I gravitated towards middle school English. And what I discovered in my student teaching and talking with, that there I had two ladies that um were my mentor teachers, Diane Adams and the other ladies was Anne Francis. And they were at Curtis Middle School in Wichita.
00:06:37
Speaker
Ann Francis was with me for, I think, two weeks. And she said, you're good to go, Mike. She said, you've got great rapport with the kids, your lesson plans and stuff. and And everything was was what she expected.
00:06:51
Speaker
And um and ah Diane was a little different. Mrs. Adams was a little different. She she was there for about a month. And the both of them finally just said, hey, you're you're good to go. You have the right, whatever it is, demeanor or or attitude about
Early Teaching Career and Challenges
00:07:07
Speaker
it. And what I tell people is this middle school kids know a lot about nothing.
00:07:10
Speaker
And they share that with you all the time. So since I fit right into that. So yeah that's that's how my teaching career took off. i I was hired right out of college to teach in Derby, Kansas.
00:07:22
Speaker
which is ah ah for those of of, of, you from the area or, or know that area, it's, it's a bedroom community. It's ah it's a, a huge attendance numbers there at Derby, but ah most of the industry is like at Boeing and in ah Wichita and in the aircraft industry or military. So big community, lots of kids, very diverse kids.
00:07:46
Speaker
And, I did a lot of coaching there, um supplementing my income. ah you know my My wife and I, who we were married very young, at 19.
00:07:59
Speaker
um She was teaching as well. And um you know we we literally were living on beans and rice, as Dave Ramsey kind of alludes to. And And loved the job, loved the area. And then in 1995, we decided that we were going to move somewhere where we thought we could retire.
00:08:20
Speaker
And we looked in Montana, where my dad was at the time. We discovered very quickly that you probably were going to starve to death in Montana because it didn't pay very well. We actually went um as far north as Alaska.
00:08:32
Speaker
Oh, wow. And interviewed there, had a ah couple of great opportunities. But I remember one of the superintendents asked me, he said, do you speak Inuit? And I said, ah no. And he said, well, we probably don't need to talk anymore.
00:08:46
Speaker
And because it would have been it would have been quite the ordeal for those students trying to figure out what I was saying. So um that that didn't pan out.
00:08:57
Speaker
um We kind of decided we were going to stay in in Kansas where we were at. My wife was actually at Udall, Kansas. And so out of the blue, my mom called and said, hey, this secretary from Hollister High School in Hollister, Missouri, ah said they had a social studies position open.
00:09:16
Speaker
I talked with Joe Kilgore there, interviewed on a Saturday. i remember that specifically because we didn't have any vacation time left because we you know used it up when we went to Alaska and various other places. So I interviewed on a Saturday and Shelly actually, her interview was on a Sunday and um we got a call that Sunday morning before her interview and Joe Kilgore said, you need to do to um let me know if you want to come to work for us, but you got to tell me today.
00:09:47
Speaker
And I was like, wow. um And to be honest with you, when we interviewed and I walked the the building there at Blue Eye, we didn't talk at all about um per se school, ah if you will, lesson plans and student discipline and handling behavior, that kind of thing. We talked a lot about, you know, what um his goal and what my goal was as a teacher and as an educator.
00:10:16
Speaker
And I remember thinking that, um you know, I'm very comfortable with this gentleman for one. and And he asked me what I thought were the right questions. You know, a lot of teachers, you know they'll ask questions during or principals will interview and and have questions like, you know, what what's that moment for you as a teacher? And i will almost tell you inevitably, everybody says the light bulb moment.
00:10:39
Speaker
You know, I look for that light bulb moment. And I don't know how many interviews I've had for, for people where they've said that to me when, you know, everyone looks for the light bulb moment. We we want everyone to have success, whether it's firefighting or, you know, being a principal or, or you know, being a, you know, a refrigerator repairman. I mean, we all want, we all want success, but what is it that, that you as a person can bring to the district?
00:11:07
Speaker
And those were the questions that Joe Kilgore asked me. And, um, I think Shelley's interview went the same way and, and, um, we were literally hired the same day, which what's the, what's the, um, you know, it was crazy. And we had to go back and and tell our, you know, building principals that, Hey, we've, we've been hired in, uh, Missouri. Yeah.
00:11:31
Speaker
So that's that's what ah brought me to Blue Eye. I taught there six years, as I mentioned, and then I was a principal for 17. And so i was right at 32 years as an educator, um loved it, loved every part of it, whether it was teaching, coaching, being administrator.
Becoming a Superintendent during COVID
00:11:53
Speaker
And and i had turned in my retirement papers and And was kind of looking forward to, you to take a little time off. And I got a call from Osceola, Missouri.
00:12:07
Speaker
And um the board's president there said, Mike, would you be interested in working for us as a superintendent in Osceola? And so I asked him point blank, I said, you must not have very good candidates or nobody's applied. He said, no, he said, we, we, we, um, have interviewed some people there at blue eye because I had, I had sent some, some superintendent, you know, if you will, resumes out.
00:12:32
Speaker
And he said, we, we'd like for you to come and, and first of all, interview with the board, but we think we'd like to hire you as a superintendent. And so I, Was there for three years. um Unfortunately, my first year there, that was the spring of COVID.
00:12:49
Speaker
Oh, brother. And as an educator, what we um all like to say is, you know, we were flying the airplane while we were building it. And yeah I'm sure for you all ah in your line of work, you know, you experience the same kind of uncertainty as well as, um you know, just trying to do the right thing by kids.
00:13:12
Speaker
And i I'm not going to say that it was a horrible experience by no stretch of the imagination. It was a great experience for me. I met some wonderful people and I have some real good relationships with some some former students and some former staff there.
00:13:27
Speaker
um but, the end of my career, um you know, was more of, I, I was just kind of, i hate say it. I was, I was just exhausted by that. And I didn't, I didn't have to be, ah working. I was, uh, retirement eligible.
00:13:44
Speaker
And, uh, so that, that, culminated, that was the 35th year. and um, you know, I, I'm, I'm grateful for what I had a chance to do.
00:13:57
Speaker
i really think that, um, you know, looking back on it, I, I, I feel really blessed by the opportunities that I had that, um, don't come, you know, if you will, the normal route of interviewing and kind of cutting your teeth and all that. I was, i was very blessed and, and, um,
00:14:18
Speaker
has some great people to work for. ah Do you find, do you find that that usually is how that works when you've spent time and you get to know people in the area, in the region that are in your line of work?
00:14:33
Speaker
If you have a good reputation and it gets out there that a lot of times people will reach out to you, is that kind of an indicator I've been doing something right when you're getting phone calls as opposed to having to reach out looking for work?
00:14:47
Speaker
I think that um everyone will do their due diligence. And for me, i'll give you this I'll give you this very pertinent example. When I when i interviewed um teacher candidates as a principal, your resume is like everyone else's.
00:15:07
Speaker
But if you if you um have the opportunity to, first of all, visit with people they work with, not necessarily their administrator, but people they work with, um if first of all, you you're going to ask permission to do that.
00:15:22
Speaker
if they If they deny that, they say, no, I'd rather you didn't. um One of two things is the case. Either A, they're maybe not aware that they're looking, or um unfortunately, they're they're probably trying to escape a difficult situation.
00:15:37
Speaker
Sure. So when you have when you have um candidates that are, you know, they're very open about, you know, there there their past history of of being an educator and things that they've done and so forth.
00:15:51
Speaker
And they also, you know, they, they you know, will mention somebody who's a mentor. Someone who, um you know, they they have looked up to. and and that was one of the questions. And and that question is asked a lot. You know, who is it that that shaped you as an educator?
00:16:08
Speaker
And so um your character and and who you basically magnetize yourself to, um that comes out in that conversation. And so to go back to your question, when you're reaching out to um try to to um look look at if somebody is going to be the right fit for you or if someone's reaching out to see if you want to go to work for them,
00:16:33
Speaker
What you've done and what your character is matters. It matters a lot. And if you have a if you have, if you will, a red flag in there whatever, um it's best to be upfront about that and be open about it. And and either A, you've either resolved that issue or you've matured from that, right?
00:16:58
Speaker
But I always tell candidates, you know you need to stay off of Facebook. And you yeah you find yourself having to apologize for things that were just a spur of the moment, you know, kind of a, if you will, a, you know, a smiley face, whatever about something. And it's like, well, I really didn't mean that or whatever. Well, that matters.
00:17:21
Speaker
And yeah um in today's world, Nothing is private. As much as we want to say that it is, nothing is private. You you can't tell me that there there are posts on whatever social media that people regret um and don't know how it got there, but it's true,
Social Media's Role in Education
00:17:43
Speaker
right? So...
00:17:44
Speaker
um To oh go back to people reaching out um to me and and hearing about it, um you know i I wasn't too privy to where the board ah president got got my name other than Bob Watkins, who is with the rural—I'm sorry, he's with MSBA, the School District um Board Association.
00:18:15
Speaker
um, he and I had an interview where we talked about it and, and, um, I know that that's, I'm, I'm going to bet money that that's how Eric, uh, got my name there at, at Osceola. So yeah, your reputation precedes you.
00:18:32
Speaker
ah You know, the, the social media thing, I don't really dive into much social media. I mean, I'm on YouTube and the various podcasting sites with this show, but as far as Facebook and,
00:18:44
Speaker
you know, pick one. I don't, I don't use them personally. I've just seen so many examples of what you think at the moment is a benign comment turning into a liability three, four or five years later. And it just doesn't seem worth it. Plus it's just ah churning void vortex of just frustration and, and arguing and things. And I, I really don't see much good in it. Uh,
00:19:13
Speaker
yeah as a general rule. Yeah. It's a, it's a black hole for your time. Yeah. or like Sure. And, um, you know, it's, it's just, you just scroll to the next or, or move on to the next. And all of a sudden, you know, you've, you've spent two hours sitting there looking at, you know, reels on your, on your phone. And, and, um, I, I actually, um was looking at retirement as being, you know, a great opportunity to play golf and and a fish as much as I could every day, all day.
00:19:50
Speaker
And what I discovered was, um you know, i couldn't i could sit and and do nothing, ah if you will, be be scrolling through reels or, you know, watching ah TV. So,
00:20:05
Speaker
We had a guy that he did a roof project for us in Osceola. And he said, Mike, you're you're going to be retiring, aren't you? And I said, yeah. And he said, well, listen, when you get bored, you need to call me because I've got i've got a gig for you. yeah yeah and and And the thing was um you know it was, it was profitable for both of us. you know i would I would have, if you will, a part-time job in retirement.
00:20:30
Speaker
And he would have someone that had some connections with schools because at the time his roofing company, which is which is he's he's the owner of, um they were just kind of getting into the school business. And um he didn't understand the process of of dealing with bids with a board and and how they, you know, basically, you know, you with a general kind of roofing contract, you know, it's when can you start, this is how much it is.
00:20:58
Speaker
Yeah. And whereas with school districts, it's a little bit different. so You're dealing with bond money and and and or you know a board has to agree with it. And and every school district is different.
00:21:10
Speaker
But ah when ah Tim Corey, my boss said, hey, listen, um you know when you get bored, give me a call. Well, honestly, Tim, I lasted all of 30 days.
00:21:23
Speaker
I was that bored. i just i I needed something to do. And And um again, it it came down to right place at the right time for one. But also um I made, it I built a relationship with Tim Corey, the owner of SIC. And, and you know, I'm, so I'm still there. It'll be a year number three here in June.
00:21:44
Speaker
And so I get to, I, I, I, it's, Really, it's because I get to reconnect with guys I used to work with or ladies I used to work with as principals or as superintendents. And I spend a lot of time going to lunch with them and just catching up. And believe it or not, we talk fishing.
00:22:03
Speaker
And so it's, ah it's a um it's I think, something that's mutually beneficial, but also something I enjoy, which going back to the years in education,
00:22:15
Speaker
um if you, if I didn't enjoy that, I couldn't see myself doing that for 35 years. Sure. And I think that's, that's something that, um, it, it does get hard.
00:22:26
Speaker
Obviously there's, there's days like in every profession where, you know, you kind of feel like, is this the right thing to be doing right now? But when it's all said and done, if you enjoy what you do, um, as the cliche is, you know, you'll never work a day in your life. So, and I got, I got to deal with great kids. Like, you know i know you're,
00:22:46
Speaker
You're two little guys well, and and it just, I mean, that made it for me. I enjoyed every day going to work, so. You didn't enjoy my kids. You've met them, so I know that...
00:22:58
Speaker
Well, okay, listen, they they had to like a lot of kids, they have a way of putting their best foot forward. Yeah. um And i think it's I think it's because I would bribe kids with popsicles.
00:23:09
Speaker
Oh, there you go. And i I'm honest, I think I could solve a lot of the world's issues if I had a box of popsicles to to go around and to sit around with people. Because I could get...
00:23:22
Speaker
you know, kids to, you know, to shape up if, if I, you know, threatened to take away the popsicle, you know, day or whatever it was. So, but, um, you know, those, those two guys, they, they didn't need a popsicle.
00:23:38
Speaker
They were fantastic. fantastics You need to be proud of them. You really I am. I like to bust their chops. Uh, I got to develop a thick skin. I can't, you know, they'll get egotistical if I build them up too much.
00:23:50
Speaker
Um, question about teaching. I'm always curious. What, what is that thing that makes someone when they decided they want to get into teaching?
00:24:02
Speaker
What is it that makes them choose high school versus middle school versus elementary? You know, is it, is it the subject matter or personality or, or a combination of everything?
00:24:15
Speaker
No, I think i think really, if my perspective on it is just looking at the dealing with middle schoolers for 15 years as a teacher and coaching them and so forth.
00:24:31
Speaker
you You kind of, i don't know, it's it's like you you gravitate towards those young people that you have the best ability um connection with. High school students, um although I enjoyed coaching high school students um and even being a superintendent over ah you know a preschool through grade 12 building, high school students and I, as ah as a group, I mean, they're just, they're a little too cool for me.
00:25:00
Speaker
You know, i mean, yeah it's like, I don't know. and it Maybe it's just that you know that, you know, that personality that I have. It just, that drew me to middle school.
00:25:14
Speaker
The thing about herding cats with, you know, elementary teachers, elementary teachers can do that because they know what buttons to push. And when you don't have that in your, if you will, your bag of tricks, it gets away from them so quick.
00:25:31
Speaker
So, you you know, you always kind of wonder why is it they got to stand in a square and line up a certain way and, you know, put a bubble in your mouth kind of thing. And and when i when I went from Blue Eye Osceola, I'm standing in the hallway and here's the elementary teachers you ah at Hey, you need to stand in your square, put a bubble in your mouth, you know, eyes forward, keep your hands to yourself.
00:25:53
Speaker
you know I mean, it was like somebody somewhere has this written code of conduct for elementary kids. And it's it's you know global. But um you will you will find your niche, and that is what will draw you to it. The content part of it I'm sure as you as you get into the higher grade levels, you know, as an example, thinking about science or math, well, any of the disciplines, but specifically math, I mean, it makes you, I'm sure, uncomfortable if you don't understand calculus to be teaching it.
00:26:28
Speaker
I mean, that that's the bottom line. the um The content part of it, though, um it kind of goes back to that enjoyment piece.
00:26:40
Speaker
You know, you'll you'll if you enjoy upper math and and and higher higher math, And being able to, you know, see that um take place in in the high school setting, hey, more power to you.
00:26:54
Speaker
That just wasn't me. yeah But I, ah you know, i've I've hired high school math teachers and that, you know, again, um it goes back to, you know, what type of person they are, you know. Now, you you encounter people and you kind of wonder what in the world are you doing in the world of education because, but number one, the the the kids kind of have their number and the other is they, they don't, they don't like what they're doing. They can never seem to get, um you know the right routine. Yeah. They just, they, they just, they struggle with it. And so that, you know, it's a one or two year thing and, and, uh, they're either going to make the decision or you'll make it for them because, you know, it's, it's, it's just, that's the wrong thing to do for, for kids.
00:27:47
Speaker
So, When you were a teacher and then you shifted gears to become a principal, that's a pretty drastic change from going, I'm responsible for these students in this classroom for this subject to but now I'm overseeing everyone and everything. Is that a hard shift to make?
00:28:09
Speaker
Yep. Absolutely. And... the The best principals that I know, ah Roger Butler was one for sure, the the gentleman that I replaced.
00:28:22
Speaker
But the elementary principals that I respect and wanted to emulate, they could manage so many things. Because you go from being, as you say, in in the classroom with a certain group of students every day, all of a sudden, not only are you managing students,
00:28:42
Speaker
for say a ah building of 250, you also, um, you have to be a, a person that manages staff. And, you know, i hate to say this, but there's a lot of different types of people out there.
00:28:59
Speaker
And, you know, is when you, and, and to be honest, you'll know if you're going to be successful by how things go in your faculty meetings, um, You know, um i can still recall some teachers that I never felt like I could reach them.
00:29:16
Speaker
You know, and what we were doing was important. And these particular things that we were going to try and implement or or change or whatever, they were important. But though they were either too stuck in their ways or whatever. So you have to be a great, if you will, ah person you have to be able to read the room.
00:29:35
Speaker
And then you have to be able to have those conversations privately with those teachers that either A, you're going to you're going to hopefully win them over to your to your ah program or or you know technique or whatever it is, discipline, procedure, you know whatever.
00:29:54
Speaker
If you can't win them over, then you need to have a very frank discussion about, listen, this is going to be very hard for both of us. And, you know, this is how it's going to look every day. You know, we're going to be butting heads.
00:30:05
Speaker
And um so not only do you go from teaching young people in a subject area, now you're doing, you're looking at the curriculum building wide as well as your staff.
00:30:18
Speaker
And then you add that wonderful component of parents in the mix. And, you know, i I can, I can tell you, I, you know, i have like every principal have a ah group of stories that you, you wonder how kids ever had a chance, but you understand the reason they are the way they are is because you've met their parents.
00:30:43
Speaker
yeah And it's not that they're doing something wrong. It's just something different, right? And so you have to manage those pieces as a principle.
00:30:57
Speaker
And now all of a sudden, um with with all those other hats that you're wearing, now they're going to give you the financial piece of having to you know take your budget as a building and say yes or no to people's requests.
00:31:11
Speaker
And that is each of those pieces is difficult, but you take a first year principal and they're having to ah navigate all those different pieces.
00:31:22
Speaker
um It is extremely difficult. And that's why the typical lifespan of a principal is in the profession is, I think, three years. Hmm. Typically. like Is there, who does the principal, would it be the district administrator that would be their boss that if they needed some assistance, they go to them?
00:31:42
Speaker
Yes. You, you have to have uh, uh, the quote-unquote working relationship with the superintendent. And um I don't know if if you ever met Dan Ray when he was there, but um Dan Ray was my mentor, and he's the one that that showed up at my door and said, hey, would you consider being the elementary principal? and And I had zero hours. I was taking my first class in my master's degree to get my admin administrator's degree.
00:32:12
Speaker
um Kind of as a sidebar, if you will, I was looking to become an assistant principal or a athletic director. that's That's what I wanted to do, I thought. And so Dan Ray shows up. He was the superintendent Blue-Eyed. He said, Mike, I'd like for you to to become the elementary principal.
00:32:32
Speaker
And i said, Dan, I said, what? i I don't know anything about being an elementary principal. And he looks at me and I can still remember, he he looked me now he says, you have kids at home, don't you? And I said, yes. And he said, you're good to go.
00:32:45
Speaker
He said, all these other pieces of managing people and so forth, you know, the coaching world had kind of prepared me a little bit for that. But, you know, um i don't know, maybe he looked at my kids and thought, you know, I was doing a great job and I would blame Shelly for that.
00:33:02
Speaker
But, Um, my, uh, my thought was, um you know, they must be short of candidates kind of like Osceola. Right. So I remember going down I sat down with Roger Butler and it was like the last couple of weeks of school.
00:33:22
Speaker
And Dan Ray said, ghost go, ah if you will, partner with Roger Butler so he can kind of show you the ins and outs and and kind of get a feel for the job and so forth. And I remember sitting in Roger Butler's office. I literally had a notepad in my hand and I...
00:33:39
Speaker
was bug-eyed eager to learn something about being a principal. And and I remember Roger Butler said, Mike, I can't tell you what's going to happen every day. He said, every day is different. He said, there's some days you'll sit here and you think you're stealing money and you should be doing something. And, and, and then all of a sudden that,
00:34:00
Speaker
trauma will happen on the playground or you'll get a you know, you'll get ah ah you know, a possible, you know, stranger on the campus or you'll have a teacher that has ah you know, has a seizure or he said, like I can't tell you what's going to happen. You just, you know, apply common sense to it.
00:34:18
Speaker
Think it through, you know, ask the what if questions as much as you can, and then you need to make a decision and go with it. And that that stuck with me. But i I remember, you know, that first week of elementary school, of course, everybody's got their supplies and you have all your stuff in the classrooms. I remember sitting there for a week thinking, I really should be doing something.
00:34:39
Speaker
You know, I'm, I'm stealing money, you know, and then the, and then the chaos begins of, you know, a kiddo won't behave on the bus, you know, uh, you got to deal with that. And, and, uh, then you think you're not paid enough.
00:34:52
Speaker
Absolutely. You know, and I, you know, I got a hand it to Missouri when I was finishing up in, in, Osceola, you know, they were, they were looking at the mandatory salary levels for teachers, which,
00:35:08
Speaker
ah You know, until you've sat in that room and dealt with what they've dealt with and, you know, people have dealt with, you know, goofy administrators or whatever the case may be for, you know, causing them stress, you know,
00:35:22
Speaker
um we we pay them pennies on the dollar and it's absurd. i mean, they they have they have our kids. you know They're yeah they're they're right they' quite literally raising our kids in some some respects. So um i I hope that you know that is something where it kind of goes back to their their, revered is a pretty big word, but they need to be respected.
00:35:47
Speaker
And they have to earn it, obviously, but ah those teachers that do a good job And man, I sure hope that that, you know, it catches on not only in Missouri, but if you will, nationwide where, you know, mandatory salaries are important.
Changing Dynamics between Parents and Teachers
00:36:02
Speaker
You know, that's that's my soapbox. that's I apologize. No, that's a good soapbox to be on. ah One thing that, well, there's two things that I want to ask you about. Since you've been in this arena, you've made a career for a number of years, you've seen a lot of changes.
00:36:17
Speaker
And I remember when I was a kid, If you screwed up in school, you would be in the principal's office or in the teacher's office, and the parent or parents and the teacher were both on the same side of the desk looking at the student to explain what is happening.
00:36:35
Speaker
It seems now like the parents more often are on the side of the child's the on the desk side of the desk with the child looking at the teacher going, how come he's not learning it or she, it just seems like teachers are, i don't know if scapegoat is the right word, but maybe it's a ah win a battle. They just can't win.
00:37:02
Speaker
it, that is driving teachers away from the profession. and Okay. And know I'll kind of, I'll touch on that a little bit more, but um what I found in my experience dealing with parents is there's what happened and then there's the story that gets home.
00:37:26
Speaker
And so before would call a parent, I made sure that I had it written out what happened and what I talk to the parent, this is what happened.
00:37:39
Speaker
When you had that situation of they they got in trouble on the bus and I'll see them in the morning kind of thing, that never ended well for the principal or the bus driver because the story could change.
00:37:52
Speaker
Kids will do that, believe it or not. But I think um going back to what Roger Butler said, you have to apply common sense to that If the student admits to it or and or, you know, you you find that this is what they're doing and you want to address that, every parent wants their child to be successful, in my opinion.
00:38:17
Speaker
And this is not whatever the situation This is not helping them to be successful. um we need We need to work on this. as opposed to he said, she said kind of thing, you know, the, the, uh, worst situation to be in is arguing with a parent about what happened.
00:38:38
Speaker
So then, yeah so then in certain situations there, there was that, if you will, that, that part as a principle where you think it through, like, okay, is this a hill I want to die on?
00:38:49
Speaker
Right. You know, chewing gum in class. Is this a hill I want to die on? No, It needs to be addressed, obviously, because the teachers tried to deal with it. But, um you know, sometimes you just have to say, listen, to the to the teacher or to the student, you know is this a hill you want to die on?
00:39:08
Speaker
Let's fix it, right? Yeah, right. So teachers find themselves in that position of being frustrated because I think um we hear the horror stories.
00:39:22
Speaker
You know, and it frustrates them ah when when, you know, like they can't figure out what, I mean, it's cut and dried. You know, the kid was, you know, let's say he was, you know, doing something he shouldn't in the hallway. Right.
00:39:34
Speaker
it's cut and dried and and you, and you deal with it. But what happens is, is, you know, you, you hear those stories of the teacher, you know, allegedly grabbed or, or maybe, you know, backhanded the, the child or whatever, those kinds of things frustrate teachers.
00:39:51
Speaker
Um, because that's the stories that people hear and that's what they bring to the table when you're trying to deal with an issue. You know, my, my, my, my child would never do that kind of thing. Yeah.
00:40:02
Speaker
So, the The veteran teacher finds less and less um of a secure, um if you will, foothold on things.
00:40:13
Speaker
It deteriorates, and then your new teachers feel like they don't have support.
00:40:19
Speaker
So any advice I could give principals going into profession, you know getting ready to do that, is yes, you need to support your teachers, but you need to take some common sense with you.
00:40:31
Speaker
And as much as um my teachers wanted me to defend them at all costs, I had to remind them that um I'll go to bat for you once and I'll take the, if you will, the rear end shoe in for you one time. But after that, we need to evaluate what you're doing.
00:40:51
Speaker
Yeah. And so you have to be there for teachers. You have to support them and you have to, as a superintendent, you have to support your administrators and But um if they struggle communicating to parents or or communicating with kids or or whatever that that area is that that you you know want them to address, if they're not going to correct that, um then they're going to find themselves you know constantly dealing with these the the same issue of you know whether it's parents or or whatever the case may be. Yeah.
00:41:24
Speaker
My advice to you know people young people going into the teaching world, um I think that's to me that's pretty obvious. You need to love what you're doing.
00:41:35
Speaker
you're not going to get You're not going to get rich quick doing it. um But there's a lot of a lot of young candidates, young people in in the high school age thinking about it.
00:41:50
Speaker
And I always encourage that when I talk to senior classes and stuff at, at, uh, just before graduation or whatever, you know, when I was a superintendent, it was, Hey, listen, if you're thinking about a profession, teaching is so rewarding and being an administrator and so forth. But teaching is one of those fields where you've got, it you must enjoy it because it, it, it'll burn you out like anything else pretty quick. So.
00:42:16
Speaker
The security aspect of school. and When I was a kid, I'm in high school. There were trucks in the parking lot that had guns and gun racks in the back window.
00:42:27
Speaker
And then now Schools take a very, as they should, ah very serious approach to school with some of them have armed guards, bulletproof glass.
00:42:38
Speaker
You know, ah some teachers are armed in some schools. I know that's probably a state by state variance, but that is something that has really taken over.
00:42:50
Speaker
um The you can't just kind of overlook that. You really have to focus in on security,
Balancing School Security and Community
00:42:57
Speaker
don't you? Yeah. The um
00:43:01
Speaker
way that I look at that is as a building principle, you whoever is going to be the villain in all of this, they're looking to inflict as much damage as they can quickly.
00:43:13
Speaker
And ah most studies that I have looked at or that I've heard about, i have a real good friend that actually does the, like, intruder training um and does the, you know, school security and and basically they evaluate your building.
00:43:30
Speaker
it's it is almost impossible to create, unless you create a prison, to create a ah an environment where someone can't get in.
00:43:42
Speaker
um even when you have all those systems in place, you know, somebody comes to the door and out of routine or, or just, I hate to say apathy, they just, you know, push the button and let them in. Um, the, the job that I have now ah working with the roofing company, obviously we're visiting facilities and it's surprising how many people just let me in that have never met me.
00:44:06
Speaker
And, and I'm, I'm happy to go through the, the, uh, the protocols they have in place, but, To go back to the the fact that you're looking at um something that is, someone is looking, like I said, to to do as much damage as they can quickly. Schools become a a big target.
00:44:31
Speaker
And there are those instances where you have a situation where the child was bullied or you know They're returning to the scene of the crime for them, if you will, and trying to make it right.
00:44:45
Speaker
But in a lot of instances, it's just ah it you know it was the easiest, most convenient place, in my opinion, to go in and and cause chaos. um There has to be a way to keep kids safe,
00:45:07
Speaker
But by the same token, you want, at least I felt, a building principal wants that facility to be inviting to the community. You know, you want to showcase what your students are doing and you and you want to be able to have, you know, the the trick or treat night in the gym. And and, you know, you want to be able to have sporting events for not only the kids, you know, enrolled there, but also like, say, for, you know, your little league teams or, you know, your bitty basketball or whatever.
00:45:39
Speaker
And you want those facilities to be, ah you know, part of the community. And, you know, it's there's a it's a it's a difficult um thing to be able to manage keeping that facility 100% safe, which you can't do.
00:45:59
Speaker
But try to keep it as safe as you can, but also allow those things to happen. I mean, my my fondest moments as ah as a principal, building level principal, were those concerts that we had or, um you know, the the Halloween night or, you know, that ah the... the read night that the title one, you know, groups used to do And, um, I, I hate that, that those things are disappearing for the sake of, you know, we've had a threat, you know, 60 miles down the road. And, and so we're going to go into lockdown or whatever. It just, it's disheartening.
00:46:38
Speaker
And again, that, that drives people from the profession, you know? yeah. I do remember when it happened in Blue Eye. i I so much appreciate those few years where I could come into the school a few minutes before the kids got out and just stand in the hallway and talk with you and talk with the secretaries or the other teachers that were passing.
00:47:04
Speaker
And I just got to know the community that my kids were being educated in. But I also know that what I want and my likes, they have to take second fiddle to the safety and the, the day that the doors were essentially shut down and you couldn't enter unless you had a specific reason.
00:47:25
Speaker
I understood it completely, but it's kind of that innocence is just kind of ripped away and it's like, well, okay, this is our new life now. And it's unfortunate that, But you also understand it, and it's you know it's a necessary ah function, I guess.
00:47:40
Speaker
yeah You know, the um the craziest statistic, and I apologize if I've mentioned this before, but most armed intruders— in a, in a school setting are there and gone within three minutes, whether it be by escaping or, um, unfortunately a death, um, where they might, you know, be, you know, shot or, or whatever, or they shoot themselves three minutes or less. So,
00:48:11
Speaker
Honestly, even if you have someone on campus, um you know, let's say between in our situation, we had a high school that was, you know, not very far, not a quarter mile from where we were, but it's going to take them longer than three minutes to to get to the to this situation if they're at the far end of the campus. So I...
00:48:32
Speaker
As much as we look at safety and security, a lot of that has to do, it it falls back on how you prepare your teachers. And um one of some of the most uncomfortable um faculty meetings were where we talked about, you know, what happens if.
00:48:50
Speaker
yeah And it's very discouraging to stand in front of a group of teachers and say, listen, um you know, here's here's your here's what your current line of defense is, is to barricade the door and shut the lights off and huddle in the corner.
00:49:06
Speaker
Or then the procedure was, let's get everybody out of the building as quickly as we can. You know, instead of sheltering in place, one of the highest, you know, factors in, in if you will, keeping people safe is getting them away from the fray.
00:49:23
Speaker
So you're you're constantly trying to upgrade that to give your students and your staff the best advantage you can. But when it's all said and done, it's, it's,
00:49:35
Speaker
for your heart goes out to those places where it's happened. It's, it's horrific and and you can't plan for it as much as you wish that you could, because there's always, there's always a variable in there that you didn't think of.
00:49:49
Speaker
So it's unfortunate that that's something that just has to be talked about, but you know, it just has to be, you, you have to to address that even though it's unpleasant.
00:50:00
Speaker
But so let's talk about, ah you're a principal and what, what's your day to day like when someone, let's say there's a teacher listening and he or she thinks, I think I want to be a principal someday. It's kind of like when you start as a first year fireman or a firefighter, you think, well, someday I'll be captain.
00:50:20
Speaker
Okay. But what, what is that day like? I mean, are you the first one there in the morning unlocking the door or does somebody else do that? What's, Well, walk walk to here run here's the yeah here's the thing. So I'm not a morning guy.
00:50:36
Speaker
ah so I always, whether I was a principal or superintendent, I always had somebody else unlock the doors. and And fortunately, um you know, my um maintenance people were all, I had two really good maintenance people ah in the, in the two buildings where I was either principal or superintendent. So they would unlock it. and And um I would usually get there. it's I always felt it's very important to listen to what was going on with the buses because that's that's your heartbeat of the day.
00:51:09
Speaker
Okay. So um in the elementary um world, the buses kind of make things go, obviously, literally. So I wanted to know if I was going to have to deal with anything as kids were getting off the bus, if there was a problem.
00:51:25
Speaker
um And then... In the elementary setting and to the for the most part, both middle school and high school, but your routine begins usually after the kids have left the cafeteria to go to class.
00:51:43
Speaker
that's when you get in That's when you get into that, hey, here's my to-do list for the day. and Okay. as a As a principal... I had a ah legal pad beside my computer and I just would list things. i learned that from clay Craig Linson, who was the middle school principal. He, he had basically that list of things that some people are good about remembering them, but, um,
00:52:07
Speaker
inevitably I would forget them. So whatever, if it was get a key for Mrs. Jones because she lost the one to her closet or, you know, check on the curriculum updates for DESE or whatever it is. So I would make a list of those things and prioritize them by the amount of time they were going to take.
00:52:28
Speaker
But Usually about 9 to
A Day in the Life of a Principal
00:52:34
Speaker
9.30. So school typically began at 8. About 9.30, I would get up and walk through the rooms.
00:52:42
Speaker
um and in In our situation where I was at in Blue Eye when I was there, I mean, it was actually ah easy to maneuver your way through classrooms, you know, because they had basically inner and outer doors to them.
00:52:55
Speaker
And they had a kind of a common area between them. so you could and And I didn't want to disturb anybody, although um Cooper might remember the you know the weird fact of the day kind of thing. But um i I wanted to walk through the rooms and and to kind of get a pulse on how things were going with teachers as well as students.
00:53:18
Speaker
And then, of course, you've got lunch in there and and you've got you then you have your afternoon session, ah which is somewhat of the the business pieces of the day.
00:53:30
Speaker
You know, meeting with superintendent or, you know, meeting with different teachers that, you know during their planning period or... you had evaluations to do for teachers.
00:53:41
Speaker
So that was using my my ah usually usually a one-hour segment in the morning, usually about from, say, 10 to 11, and then from 1 to 2 in the afternoon I did evaluations for And then, which is, you know, you're sitting in the classroom and you're trying, you're not looking at at everything while you're there evaluating. You're looking at, you know, basically teacher interactions and how students are responding, as well as, you know, there are some content things to go in there. But usually it was about, um you know, about an hour to do that.
00:54:18
Speaker
And then you're you know you're you've you've rolled back around. It's 3 o'clock, and you're loading up buses, and you're listening for the radios you know to clear. That was usually about 4.15 in the afternoon.
00:54:29
Speaker
And so from 4.15 to 5, I typically would do whatever paperwork catch up or um make parent calls or, you know, that kind of thing. And of course, that's great as a routine, but then you throw a discipline issue in there or, you know, you have that you know teacher that has to leave all of a sudden because their spouse is in the hospital whatever.
00:54:53
Speaker
you know, there was always things that got thrown in there. um And ah to to think about what was a typical day like, that's how you hoped it would go, you know, with your routine.
00:55:09
Speaker
But everything always seemed to get postponed another day because I had that interruption or, you know, we had ah we had an issue with ah with a student or whatever.
00:55:20
Speaker
so You've got to be okay with ah moving pieces on the board every single day. Right. And the good principals, in my opinion, the guys, again, that I respect a lot, they had the ability to chisel out those times and they let their teachers know That this time right now, in my case, it would have been ah that, you know, 9.30 to 10 or say 9 to 10.
00:55:54
Speaker
If you have an issue, you know, you need to understand that I'm in the middle of. Now, if, you know if there's a fire or something like that, you know. is Sure, yeah. I mean, it's going to be taken care of. But, you know, if it was something that could wait, it needed to wait. Because what happens is, is everything backs up, you know.
00:56:14
Speaker
And so once you establish that routine with your staff and you commit to it, you know, if I'm going to tell them that I need nine to 10, then I better be working from nine to 10.
00:56:28
Speaker
You know, um the, uh, flexibility of being a principal as opposed to a teacher is like night and day, you know, you, you can, You can literally find yourself in a classroom as a teacher eight in the morning until three in the afternoon.
00:56:46
Speaker
And they're tied to that. They've got kids coming, right? You know, your planning period, you're tied to it. You've you've got to get ready for the next day. The good teachers do that. So um all of a sudden you're now in a role as a principal where you're used to doing that.
00:57:00
Speaker
And you have, you know, like I said, that first week of school where you you don't know what to do with yourself and you're thinking, you know, i really should be evaluating teachers. Well, you're not going to do that the first week of school.
00:57:13
Speaker
So over time you develop that long range plan of, hey, i know that I've got to do um you know, some budgeting things. And so what I discovered was once we got school school school started in August, then that was my way to evaluate, hey, how did our first meetings go as a staff and as ah as a principal? What are the questions that came out of that?
00:57:40
Speaker
And then usually around October first I would and try to address those things. And usually by October 1st, I was at that point where I could begin to do evaluations.
00:57:50
Speaker
And um you you may or may not be aware of this, a teacher in Missouri, if it looks like you're not going to ah renew a contract with them, ah those teachers that are probationary don't have to have it. But I felt in good conscience I had to address it with them if I was not going to rehire them.
00:58:13
Speaker
But a tenured teacher has to have a timeline that you address um very strictly if you feel like you're going to have to address a problem or if you're going to not offer them a contract.
00:58:26
Speaker
And so that begins, um, relatively early in the year because of the time there's a, like a 30 day, 90 day, 30 day kind of thing with preparing a teacher to, to basically terminate them.
00:58:40
Speaker
And if you don't do that, i mean, that's on you as the building principal and, and you have to, um you have to, you have to meet those guidelines. if not, then you're in violation of, uh,
00:58:52
Speaker
Of the contract. And so therefore you, you can't terminate them, which, you know, never a good thing. Um, honestly, as a, as a building principal, i never officially terminated anyone.
00:59:09
Speaker
I had some, some, uh, people that we had a real good discussion about how teaching probably wasn't um In their best interest, and they knew it, you know, they struggled with with kids and parents and so forth, or just the, you know, the time management piece.
00:59:26
Speaker
And then as a superintendent, was. I had to release someone. um And it was a situation where they were ah between, you know, me and you and the rest of the world, they were horrible with kids.
00:59:39
Speaker
So um it had to be done. And, you know, to this day, I do not regret that because I, I felt like, you know kids were, in a horrible situation with that person. So anyway, what types of, what types of personalities you've, you've talked about a couple of different things that you have to do.
01:00:00
Speaker
I don't imagine that, And I may be wrong, but I don't imagine that an introvert or someone that's a bit of a wallflower would do very well, not only in teaching, but working their way up the ranks to be a principal or a superintendent, administrator, et cetera. You would have to be a pretty intentional, maybe not necessarily an extrovert, but an effective communicator. You know how to read the room, that kind of a thing.
01:00:26
Speaker
Yeah. my In my opinion, if you have a difficult time interacting with people, just in general, you know, you're, you're uncomfortable, um, in a group, if you will, and you don't necessarily have to be, you know, be the leader, but if it makes you uncomfortable to interact with people, then, then you literally are spending your day doing that as a teacher. And then as a, as a principal, um and I really, I really believe that, um, part of the the tone and the culture of a building for an administrator
01:01:01
Speaker
is the ability to involve engage people in what they're doing. Meaning that, hey, how's it going today? Can I help you, you know, in some way? Or, or you know, how did that come out, that that repair that you did on the, you know, on the on the kitchen sink or whatever it was?
01:01:18
Speaker
um You have to interact with people. And, you know, I would always jokingly say, if, you know, if you have a hard time talking with people, you probably need to become the IT person because they're... It might have been to computers, yeah.
01:01:34
Speaker
Yeah, they in my opinion, they were always horrible to deal with because they wouldn't explain to you what they were doing, right? Right. So, I mean, they would just basically say, get out of the way, I'll fix it for you, you know? and And I appreciate it being fixed, but I want to know what I did, you know? And and so that was always funny. The the IT people, they they get a bad rap because, you know, they...
01:01:55
Speaker
They just they get tired probably of hearing people's reasons as to why it doesn't work, you know. Yeah. When when basically all that happened was you deleted something you shouldn't have. Right. So but anyway, um i if you can't interact with people, it's it's it's a bad choice.
01:02:13
Speaker
It really is. be Well, interacting with adults is one thing, but if you, I mean, kids, kids are just little balls of energy and rubber and, you know, they're just bouncy and noisy. And if, the if that wears you out, which, I mean, it wears me out, but I couldn't be a teacher for that very reason. I just couldn't, I couldn't deal with that all day, every day.
01:02:34
Speaker
Yeah. You know, and that's just it. I mean, we, I mentioned the weird fact of the day. I used to do the joke of the day or weird fact of the day. And It requires a little homework on on the administrator's part, but you know what?
01:02:50
Speaker
If the only thing that people see in you, and specifically students, if the only thing they see in you is this guy that threatens to you know put you in detention or or you know call your parents because you're not sitting up straight, if that's the only side of you that they see, yeah then yeah they won't respect you, for one.
01:03:11
Speaker
you don't want them to be you You don't want them to be in fear of you. you want them You want them to respect who you are as a leader of the school. But by the same token, you have to, you know, give them a reason to, you know, talk with you or, or you know, high five you or, you know, whatever your thing is. um Because, i mean, that's who you're there for.
01:03:34
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you're not there to collect a paycheck. I mean, it's awesome. Don't get me wrong. But... um those kids need somebody as a role model. They need somebody that interacts with them and is has you know has the ability to to, if you will, light the fire under them and encourage them and and get them going every day.
01:03:56
Speaker
So we used to do the Wahoo, if you remember, in the assembly. So that was just my way of ah of kind of getting the ah endorphins going. But...
01:04:07
Speaker
but ah you know, kids need that. They have to have that that exchange, that energy exchange. One thing that I've noticed as I go through these interviews with various careers is i I didn't have any teachers that, I didn't have necessarily any horrible teachers, but I didn't really have any teachers younger that had a huge impact on me. Like I could just pick out somebody.
01:04:33
Speaker
It was kind of a benign education, which, you know, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But There's still, I still hear people that say, no, this one particular teacher just got through this one particular principal every day. He would high five me and I had a horrible home life. And then I come into school and my teacher sees me or my principal sees me, high fives me, ask me how I'm doing, make sure I get breakfast or lunch.
01:04:56
Speaker
You still have a huge opportunity to positively impact kids and you have no idea what's going on. Outside of those school walls. So yeah take it and run with it.
01:05:09
Speaker
That's it. You, if you think everybody lives with Ozzie and Harriet. Yeah. um You're way off the mark. And, you know, you're.
01:05:20
Speaker
over time you, you have the ability to recognize those kids that need some type of anchor in their lives. Cause they, you know, they, this is the fourth school in the last six months or, and you know, you, you kind of know, ah the neighborhood they come from that kind of thing. And, and,
01:05:38
Speaker
They need someone and it it's falls more to the teacher because they're with them, you know, the bulk of the day or or that solid hour, if you will, when they're in you know, junior high and high school. And then the other one that kind of gets overlooked a lot is coaching piece. Yeah.
01:06:00
Speaker
And I really think that kind of developed my um my rapport with a lot of students was the ability to talk about the ball game the day before or, hey, you did a great job, you know, and practiced, you know, yesterday or whatever whatever it is. They – they enjoy and they look for someone to encourage them.
01:06:24
Speaker
And by enjoying that, um they what I mean is they're probably not hearing it anyplace else. So you do, i mean, you shape a lot of lives as ah as an educator, whether that be in the classroom or, you know,
01:06:36
Speaker
out in the gym or whatever. Do you think that the coaching aspect, there seems to be, it's a higher level of intensity that you're engaging with.
01:06:47
Speaker
yeah It's not just, I'm sitting at a desk, but you know it's a battle. I don't want to be overly dramatic, but you know it's a competition. and the intensity, the emotions, the physical exertion, everything is higher.
01:07:00
Speaker
Do you think that coaches, because ah it's a different environment, they can get through to the student a little bit quicker and easier?
01:07:13
Speaker
I don't know. i can't answer that. um I think... um I've met some coaches, their intensity is, is over the top. Yeah.
01:07:24
Speaker
And so then you kind of ask the question, well, what, you know, what's, what's their motivation to do it? You know, do they want a state championship? You know, even though they're only coaching, you know, seventh grade boys basketball, I mean, it's, they're just, it's just the intensity level, um, is just too much.
01:07:43
Speaker
But I also know that it's not the Olympics. Calm down. Yeah. You know, I, my, my saying is this, what, what is it about youth sports that brings out, you know, the idiots and people?
01:07:54
Speaker
Yeah. And the, But to go to to look at it from the standpoint of, you know, maybe high school, I mean, of those kids that you have on your team, how many are going to go on to play at the next level?
01:08:10
Speaker
Not many. Not many. I mean, it's a sliver of those kids. and And so I think what you have to do, you have to realize that um those coaches are probably looking to hopefully mold those kids to be, you know, successful with determination, desire, um, you know, dedication to what they're doing and that will transfer to what they're doing in life.
01:08:37
Speaker
Sure. Probably in their profession. um I think those coaches get it and, and, um, but, Again, um I think as a as a parent of an athlete who went on to play in college, there were times that um I wanted to pull the coach aside and have a have a very direct conversation about, listen, you know you're you're just over the top here.
01:09:08
Speaker
In my opinion, you're out of line. Yeah. And um I think um it can come to that. Unfortunately, ah where you have to have those conversations, but I think the the bulk, I think the majority of of at least junior high and high school coaches, probably more so high school coaches, their intensity is, is there if you will, their their dedication to it and their devotion to what they're doing is good. Yeah.
01:09:40
Speaker
And i I say the ones that I struggle with are pretty few and far between. um Sure. When I was in Osceola as a superintendent, I i took the – the supervision from the high school principal, the away games, as well as the concerts or whatever.
01:09:59
Speaker
And as a way, number one, to to give him a break, he was he had some young ah children at home and needed to be with them. And I i had nothing going on. I got tired of watching TV, to be honest with you.
01:10:14
Speaker
And so i I traveled to these different venues and and two things happened. You know it gave me the opportunity to interact with students and parents away from the school building, get to know them. you know, I was a new guy there.
01:10:29
Speaker
But the flip side of that is, is you get a chance to see a lot of coaches in action and and you you understand why they're successful. You know, I mean, you can be mean and nasty. That's not going to translate into being successful, in my opinion.
01:10:44
Speaker
It may for a short period of time or for a short certain group of kids. But the guys that had the right stuff were the guys that you could tell. They had a culture of team.
01:10:56
Speaker
school spirit. Um, you know, it's not about the individual. um it was developing, you know, not only players, but the team concept and for them, i mean, that was to in my opinion, that was their gold star for me.
01:11:14
Speaker
ah You know, I, and I just enjoyed being around them and interacting with them. Um, but I met some coaches, saw some coaches that, um, they they wouldn't have made my top 10 list of people I wanted to be around for sure.
01:11:30
Speaker
That's too bad. You hate to see that, but thankfully it's rare, I think. um yeah Yeah. What's your advice when you fail? um If someone, if you have a teacher or, um you know, somebody in your, in your employ that screws up, what how do you advise them on how to proceed after they make a mistake?
01:11:54
Speaker
it's It's one of two things. It's either fixable or it's not. Right. You know, um the the the the nu let's start with the things that aren't fixable. Those are pretty obvious. They've done something so egregious that, you know, it's become a legal issue or it's become something where you're yourre you're not going to be able to um help them in situations that might develop further down the road because everything will come back to what they did, you know, whether that's, you know, on purpose or not.
01:12:31
Speaker
So then you have that, that very frank discussion about, listen, um, I, we need to decide what we're going to do in regards to moving on.
01:12:42
Speaker
This is not fixable. So if they're, and if they're, like I said, a probationary teacher, then I'm going to let them know right away that, um, you know, they're not going to be rehired. If they're a 10 year teacher, we're going to begin to work on that process of hopefully addressing that.
01:13:01
Speaker
But if it's, you know,
01:13:04
Speaker
If it's something where, you know, say they, we mentioned before, they backhand a kid, they're done. I mean, you're not done. It's out of your hands, isn't it? Yeah. But um to go to the fixable pieces where maybe they're struggling with some classroom discipline, you know they're a good teacher, you know they're able to do it, but for whatever reason, the last five to ten minutes of class are just this chaotic circus in their classroom.
01:13:31
Speaker
Well, let's have that discussion about, listen, um either a you need to have a little bit of more content every day that kind of, if you will, utilizes that time. Or you need to, I had them in my classroom, not that i was a world's top rate teacher, but I always had something that I could fall back on. you know Hey, we've got vocabulary words this week. Let's let's review them real quick so we can get ready for Friday. you know Okay.
01:14:00
Speaker
um you know just no ah No idle hands. No idle hands. Yeah. Because um you know once they get into the habit of that, yeah every day is like that.
01:14:11
Speaker
and So if it's fixable, if it's something like that, then I need to, it's my responsibility as an administrator to mentor them through that process.
01:14:23
Speaker
And If I ask them to correct something as a principle, then I need to be sure that I follow up on it. I don't wait for the for the next um issue to come up. you know I'm going to be in and I'm going to observe and I'm going to let them know that, hey, today was a great day.
01:14:42
Speaker
Look at how that ended up as opposed to the other day when when we had the issue. And you know mentor them and and teach them and get them going. That's that's my role as an administrator.
01:14:54
Speaker
As a teacher, you know, for those that may be listening about maybe going into that, as a teacher, i would say probably 99% of the time, if a principal bolt comes to you with a concern,
01:15:09
Speaker
then um let's let's address it. and You know, the first thing that you want to do, you know, you've, what is it, fight or flight.
01:15:20
Speaker
Oh, yeah. They want to fight with a principal. Well, that didn't happen, you know, or you know, I didn't really say that. Well, okay, so you're going to get nowhere. um But you have to be you have to be willing as a teacher to take that correction and and to to basically chisel away at those rough parts in your teaching.
01:15:43
Speaker
And that'll that'll help you to to avoid those issues down the road. the really good the Going back to the the guys that I respect, they had a way of of dealing with issues and correcting problems.
01:15:57
Speaker
where it wasn't me versus them. It was us. You know, we're a team here. We're we're faculty. We're going to work together, you know, so. I can see it would be a fine line that you would walk where as a principal, if you have an issue to address with a teacher, if you have to spend time in the classroom or whatever, the teacher would feel a little bit almost like they got a bullseye on him. Like this person is just lording over me, waiting for me to slip up. There has to be that,
01:16:26
Speaker
You got it right. Good job. I can see you're fixing it. You have to let them know a progress report as you move through fixing the failure. Yeah. Yeah. You're, in my opinion, you're not only legally obligated to do that, uh, to correct the behavior, but just to be a ah good leader, you know, um, you have to be able to, I mean,
01:16:50
Speaker
Who doesn't like to hear that they've done a good job? Sure. I mean, i can't think of anybody. I mean, you know, when students, you know, when you tell a student, hey, listen, your writing was absolutely the best one I had out of this group today.
01:17:07
Speaker
I mean, they're on cloud nine and every person is that way, you know, and and you need to be an encourager. um People ah kind of perceive a principal as being the warden.
01:17:20
Speaker
And, you know, that's not, yeah mean, it's unfortunately part of the job, but the bulk of our job is, is basically helping and empowering teachers to be really good at what they do.
01:17:34
Speaker
And honestly, if you want to avoid issues as a principal, you know, from kiddos in the classroom and so forth, you'll mentor your teachers to help you, you know,
01:17:49
Speaker
What let's talk about pay. That's always something that people want to know about. And and every time I talk about this, I have to throw out some context. This scale really dependent on where you live, because if you live and I always use California and New York because it costs more to live there. That's just a fact.
Financial Considerations for Educators
01:18:11
Speaker
So your salaries are going to be higher for a teacher in Los Angeles or in, you know, Beverly Hills versus Branson, Missouri, for example. But is there, let's just use the Midwest maybe as, I don't know if you, if you can even go that far out, but starting with a principal, what, what can principals expect to make? And then is there a huge jump if you move to ah superintendent or or district administrator role?
01:18:37
Speaker
Yeah. I'm going to say probably it's, it's probably pretty,
01:18:43
Speaker
um pretty generic dollar amount. Okay. Most principals probably are going to be starting somewhere around that 60,000 plus.
01:18:55
Speaker
Okay. That's a first year principal. um if you get into a larger district, it is possible, um, But it depends more on, honestly, ah Tim, it depends more on the the health, the financial health of the district.
01:19:12
Speaker
Okay. What you find is is ah ah great example is where Shelley was the superintendent at Shell Knob. They had a great teacher salary base. And the reason being, um ah hats off to Shelly. she She was great at the financial um aspect. but Well, she was a great superintendent in general, but she understood that um in order for the district to be healthy initially, they they couldn't give people, you know, say a $10,000 raise or whatever it is. That looks great on paper, but if you calculate that out in the next 10 years, you bankrupt the district.
01:19:49
Speaker
Yeah. so she she was really good about seeing the health of the district and then applying that to something that could be sustained. So as a principal going into a district, one of the things that will stand out almost immediately is um the condition of the facility and the condition, if you will, the demeanor of people in regards to money. Right.
01:20:17
Speaker
you know, um you' you'll see that they're frustrated. Does that make sense? They're frustrated with the getting paid and so forth. And most of this stuff is, are are things that you can do your homework on before you go into a district.
01:20:31
Speaker
Because honestly, anymore, every, like I talked about the Facebook thing, everything is, nothing is private anymore. Right. If you go online and and go to the DSE, the State Department's website, they'll have ah principal salaries for the districts.
01:20:46
Speaker
It's on their, I believe they refer to it as their report card. But anyway, it's nationwide. Yeah, it's that I don't know for sure, but I know in Missouri is kind of my, if you will, my reference point. So okay um teachers typically just depends again on the health of the district and where they're at. Some, some, I don't know why some, some principals, are I'm sorry, some superintendents feel like, you know, they need to keep you know, the salaries down, but they keep them down for a reason because they can't, it'll bankrupt you in a very short period of time.
01:21:25
Speaker
But principle wise, you're probably looking at, uh, probably beginning somewhere at 60,000 or so. I would be, if it's below that anywhere, I, I think I would, I would question that. But, and then moving up to superintendent, you know, anymore, you're probably looking at somewhere between 90 and a hundred thousand as a beginning salary.
01:21:43
Speaker
And, There's a lot of of things that go into that. um You know, a place like, um you know, say Blue Eye, where you do the PR, you do the facilities, you do the, you know the HR piece as one person.
01:22:02
Speaker
But then you get to, you know, a larger district, like say Branson, where you have assistant superintendents and they take facilities just as as their job. But obviously there's a lot of things that go into that. So,
01:22:16
Speaker
That pay will increase. You know, I but don't know what Springfield has Last time I heard it was, you know, 200 and some thousand per year for the superintendent, which if if I had that job,
01:22:30
Speaker
i I would definitely need to have that to keep my sanity, I think. so Well, when you're dealing with dozens of schools, that's certainly, I mean, that's so much responsibility. So I can see why the the pay scale would jump significantly in a larger city.
01:22:46
Speaker
but But but here's here's something else that but that we we mentioned briefly that's kind of ah coming into play. COVID-19.
01:22:58
Speaker
was such a, and and it was beginning before COVID, don't get me wrong, but COVID really um did a number on it in in regards to the people leaving the profession.
01:23:12
Speaker
I spoke with a gentleman yesterday. We coached junior high football back in Derby, Kansas together, and we we were just catching up. He's retired as well, and and he left. his His last year as a superintendent was the first year of COVID.
01:23:28
Speaker
And he said, Mike, we we lost so many great people because they just it exhausted them and the uncertainty of it. And for the first time that I can remember, and I'm sure it happened before, but it really kind of came to light, political...
01:23:48
Speaker
positioning on decisions for schools yeah has really reared an ugly head. And I always enjoyed, you know so the school and so forth. It's kind of being in Switzerland. They were kind of neutral, you know?
01:24:02
Speaker
Yes. And that's something that has really changed. And, and quite honestly, because of, of some of the things that took place during COVID where you basically, you pitted people,
01:24:16
Speaker
One group versus the other, and teachers just got fed up with it. Administrators as well. a lot of ah lot of great people left the profession because they just they it wasn't at all what it had been like.
01:24:32
Speaker
yeah So now there's there's such a demand for teachers, I think, and this is my just my opinion, I think you're going to see salaries go up. Um, because they can't draw people.
01:24:46
Speaker
And the, as looking from the outside in, you know, the perspective person graduating from high school, going into a profession, you look at teacher salaries where they are, there's no draw.
01:24:59
Speaker
They, they, they don't see the sense in it, you know? Yeah. And so that's going to drive it up. Um, I think you'll see a huge change within the next 10 years.
01:25:10
Speaker
And um I think you'll see that teaching profession, at least it's kind of my my prayer that you'll see that that teaching profession return to what it was where they were a very revered, respected person because they're you know they're you know teaching kids.
01:25:28
Speaker
I really, i don't discuss politics on on my show, but I do agree with you 100% that ah The school, Switzerland, that's a perfect example. I mean, I'm in woodshop.
01:25:40
Speaker
Why are we talking about politics? It's oak. It's a dovetail joint. This has nothing to do with Democrat, Republican, Libertarian. Just pick your poison. And we really need to get back to we're teaching math. We're teaching history. We're teaching woodshop.
01:25:57
Speaker
You know, these aren't political topics. Right. So, yeah. Is there... Is there an occupation that if you, I know we talked early on about you kind of thought about radio, but has there been something in your journey through teaching, being a principal and then a superintendent that you thought, you know, that career, you always want to be a rock star or you know, well, I bet you a professional fisherman is probably the one that you would. ah Okay. I'll have to think of something else though.
01:26:27
Speaker
I stole your thunder, did I? Yeah. Um, You know, i i really um I really, ah the whole sales thing and and you know what I do now, which is basically estimating for a commercial roofing company.
01:26:45
Speaker
you know We'll get a call from um you know a former or or a superintendent, former colleague or whatever. And when I go and visit with them, we obviously take a look at the facility, look at the roof or whatever, but I get to spend a lot of time.
01:27:02
Speaker
Just, you know, interacting with them. Hey, how's school going? You know, hey, how did you handle this or that? You know, this decision from the State Department or, you know, have you got everybody hired and and that kind of thing. And and we I never, ever...
01:27:19
Speaker
ever pictured myself, you know, selling roofs is is quite literally what it is. But I enjoy it so much because I get to, ah you know, I get to travel a little bit, not a huge amount, but a little bit.
01:27:37
Speaker
And I get to, like I said, I get to interact with those people that, um you know, we we kind of have a ah bond, if you will. So you like the relational side of things.
01:27:50
Speaker
I do. I do.
Favorite Bass Lure Discussion
01:27:52
Speaker
Yeah. Now the final question is what is your favorite bass lure? And I've got my pen ready to write this down.
01:28:02
Speaker
Um, I will tell you that It's for the listeners, not me. Yeah, I have i have ah a gentleman that makes me shaky head jigs.
01:28:15
Speaker
yeah And shaky head jigs are kind of a craze that um kind of took over, I'm going to guess, you know, 10, 15 years ago. And I have, I'm ashamed to say this, I have hundreds of dollars of fishing equipment in my boat, lures,
01:28:34
Speaker
And I use this shaky head jig with a worm on the back of it probably 95% of the time. And I really think that I really should be more versatile, but ah that's it.
01:28:47
Speaker
so If it works, it works. Yeah. Now, these special jigs that are made, um I'm going to keep that a secret until you and I get together and go fishing. Then i'll I'll show them to you. All right.
Conclusion and Insights on Education Career Path
01:29:00
Speaker
Well, I got to tell you, this has been a very enlightening and interesting interview. I wasn't quite sure. you know, you're always on the parent side of things, just kind of curious what goes on behind closed doors and they the day-to-day operations of a principal. And so yeah anybody that's a teacher that's thinking about this line of work, I think this interview would shed a lot of real light on it. So I i do thank you for your time.
Closing Remarks and Call to Action
01:29:25
Speaker
Absolutely. I enjoyed it a lot, tim And that wraps up another episode of the Jobs Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Hopefully you found that interesting. As always, I wait until the end of an interview to ask you to like, subscribe, and share.
01:29:40
Speaker
I feel it's important that I earn that support from you. Thanks again, and we will see you on the next one.