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Kilian Jornet and David Goettler talk about Everest 2021
2.8k Plays3 years ago
David Goettler has been coached by Scott Johnston for more than 6 years. Kilian Jornet was the impetus for and co-authored with UA cofounders Steve House and Scott Johnston in the writing of Training for the Uphill Athlete. David and Kilian recently returned from a failed attempt at an unassisted, oxygen-less speed ascent of Everest. Scott Johnston unpacks their experiences of acclimatization, and training cycles at altitude; the unique situation of climbing big mountains post-lockdown; and the influences of social media on the projection and attainment of goals.
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Transcript
Welcome and Community Engagement
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. These programs are just one of several free services we provide to disseminate information about training for mountain sports. If you like what you hear and want more, please check out our website, uphillathlete.com, where you'll find many articles and our extensive video library on all aspects of training for and accomplishing a variety of mountain goals. You'll also find our forum, where you can ask questions of our experts and the community at large.
00:00:30
Speaker
Our email is coach at uphillathlete.com and we'd love to hear from you. We've been very pleased and of course gratified that our podcasts are being received so enthusiastically. We've had requests to enable a way for listeners to have a conversation about episodes.
00:00:49
Speaker
We certainly welcome this idea and want to encourage those of you who do want to do that to do so on our forum so that the whole uphill athlete community can join in and benefit from this exchange. To do so, please start a new thread on the forum using the title of the podcast under the most appropriate category. Thanks for being part of this community.
Meet the Guests: David and Killian's Everest Adventure
00:01:14
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of the uphill athlete podcast.
00:01:18
Speaker
I'm your host, co-founder of uphill athlete, Scott Johnston. And with me today, I have the real pleasure of having my good friend, David Goodler and Killian Jornet join me for a talk about their recent attempt on Mount Everest. That it's been a topic of some discussion, I think, for folks.
Acclimatization Strategies and Experiences
00:01:40
Speaker
And I thought it would be nice to get the inside story from these two guys about their experiences there.
00:01:46
Speaker
And some of the things they encountered, what are some of the things they learned. And I don't think that either one of them need a lot of introductions. So I will take up a lot of time with that. But so welcome, guys. Thanks a lot for joining me, especially on such short notice. Hey, welcome, Scott. Yeah, thank you. Thank you to you to invite us and to talk about mountaineering, about training, about whatever.
00:02:15
Speaker
Great. Well, I want to get the ball rolling, but I mainly want to hear from you guys about what your thoughts are. But one of the things that jumped out with me, because I've been working now for, as you know, Killian for five years or more with David, is that you took
00:02:37
Speaker
kind of polar opposite approaches to how you were going to acclimatize for this trip, this climb of Mount Everest without using supplemental oxygen. And it was okay with you to, I'd like to hear like why you chose the method you did, if there's anything you would do different in the future and historically how these types of the different types of acclimatization have worked for you. So
00:03:04
Speaker
Either one of you can start. Yeah. Well, I think we had a very similar approach to stigmatizing David and I. And it was different in the first part. I was doing a first part home in Norway, mostly because we were expecting a baby. So it was nice to stigmatize, not far like home. And David was doing it in the Kumbu Valley. But I think
00:03:33
Speaker
this first, let's say, month to do in moderate altitude, like to go up to 6,000 meters, but just like train a lot on that, like feel very comfortable and just be like doing normal training at this altitude. And then when we get together in the mountain, it was pretty quick to go up to 8,000 meters, to touch 8,000 meters
00:03:59
Speaker
in between the first 10 days for me and for that it was kind of the same after this first period of acclimatization. And I think it works very well. I think that we were very well acclimatized.
00:04:17
Speaker
middle of May. And I think it works. It's a system that works very well if you are fit because you are able to go touch high altitudes very quick and go back to sleep in low altitude. So I believe it's something that this year, I think we did it super good. I don't see something to improve on the acclimatizing part.
00:04:43
Speaker
because it felt very smooth, at least for me.
00:04:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, for me, it felt also really smooth. I mean, what I changed compared to the years before, as you maybe know, and we talked about this in a previous podcast, that I did this two weeks going to Nepal, then coming back home to Chamonix, where I'm based in the winter, for five weeks, do another set of like a big training block there, and then go back to Nepal for the real expedition.
Adapting Training Routines During COVID-19
00:05:16
Speaker
And this year with all the travel restrictions, it was too difficult and too uncertain to travel back and forth. And of course, from my carbon footprint, it's also not a good thing to travel back and forth so many times. So this year I did it more kind of in a classic style, but what's really interesting that I think we both started
00:05:41
Speaker
I flew to Nepal 2nd of April and that was more or less the time, if I'm correct, where Killion started to sleep in the tent. So overall, our time exposed or we took for this kind of first months of acclimatization to 6,000 meters was from the days, I think was completely the same.
00:06:04
Speaker
the number of days. So that was I think really interesting and I think that's just maybe what our body in general kind of needs. And then how Killian arrived in Nepal and how quickly he then can transfer it to real altitude, this is something I think
00:06:25
Speaker
from sleeping in the tent to then transferring it to real altitude is something which is very yeah individual or maybe unique even how quickly he can transfer that and that is I think based on on on Killian's kind of fitness level and my part there this year um
00:06:45
Speaker
I did one small mistake like in like after two weeks where I felt I felt super strong and just pushed harder and harder and harder and and just didn't stick to the recovery days and and I got a little bit carried away how good it felt so I did like too quickly another round on island peak from Chukom and after that I felt like wow I'm
00:07:08
Speaker
totally empty. And then I went even further down a little bit. I went to Dingbocher, which is 4,000 meters, and had five totally easy days there.
Tools and Techniques for Acclimatization
00:07:21
Speaker
I mean, I think you remember, Scott, when I told you, oh my God, I hope I recover in these kind of five days.
00:07:26
Speaker
and I just was sitting there that easy hiking aid and then kind of then I went up and then I felt great again. So for sure this is something for me with what I need to remember next time that I really take, or don't get carried away when it really feels good and you try to overtake the acclimatization. Even I think both of us are very
00:07:51
Speaker
quick in getting an acclimatization and feeling good in altitude and we still need to take care there. Yeah, obviously at that altitude you're kind of
00:08:06
Speaker
the recovery isn't as good. And my experience, which is nothing like the two of you combined, especially, has been that pushing it a little bit too hard at altitude can really set you back and it takes quite a bit more time to recover afterwards. But it sounds like, so Killeen, you spent about how many weeks did you sleep in a hypoxic tent?
00:08:33
Speaker
So I was sleeping four weeks, I think four or five weeks before going more or less. And I believe like it's just to spend hours. I think you can sleep or you can train, but to acclimatize is not like to do some intermittent like epoxy or whatever. It just like to...
00:08:56
Speaker
Either you are in altitude, like in a hut in the Alps or in the Kumbu Valley or in an epoxy tent, I think you need to put like 300 hours, 200, 300 hours in altitude before like feeling like we're acclimatized. So it was more like to spend the night because it's easier to spend the night in a tent than during the day. And yeah, I put like 300 hours in a tent before going to Himalayas.
00:09:24
Speaker
And is that pretty typical what you've done before? Yeah, it's been changing. In 2017, when I was in the north side, I did very similar, around the same amount of hours before going to the mountains. And actually, in 2019, I was going to
00:09:48
Speaker
there in the Malayas and I didn't sleep in the tent because it was a lot of traveling things so I just did like spend a lot of time in the Alps and in Colorado so around 4,000 meters and traveled to Malayan and then the first two weeks were a bit harder but after it felt kind of the same
00:10:09
Speaker
I have pretty good data on David's performance at Altitude and it was really interesting for me
00:10:17
Speaker
now so many years that he's been going over there and collecting this data in his Garmin watch and then I uploads it and I can see it and we look at that, we talk about it and it's been interesting to see the improvement in his performance from multiple trips and this is something that David and I talked about recently and I think you
00:10:42
Speaker
David, I know you have a slightly different, perhaps, an opinion on this than I do, but does it seem to you, Killian, that the more times you expose yourself to altitude, the easier it becomes, the faster you can acclimatize? Or is that just, I mean, that's what I've noticed with myself, but I wonder if I'm mistaken about that. I think so, but I don't think it's because you acclimatize better, but it's just because you know,
00:11:12
Speaker
what to feel. I think the first time you go to altitude, you feel so shit. You cannot walk, you feel that everything is wrong, and it takes time. And the second time, you know what to expect. So when you feel shit, you know that that's normal. And I think also it's maybe more on
00:11:36
Speaker
on systems is not that you will acclimatize better every time, but yeah, of course, your body will probably optimize a bit how to acclimatize, meaning that maybe the first time you go there, like you will rest a bit less because you feel like strong and then that will make, yeah, that you recover less and then you feel,
00:12:01
Speaker
more tired and the body is in shock so he doesn't know how to do it and probably like the body after with experience like on metabolic side on the metabolism on the on the on the blood adaptations it will know what he needs to do to adapt so it it will go directly there that means that maybe
Rest and Recovery Tactics at Altitude
00:12:27
Speaker
it cuts a bit of time but I don't think it's like that the more you go to altitude like the faster you will acclimatize but probably from the first times to the next ones it's just that your body is more used and knows how to do it and you too like
00:12:43
Speaker
The resting I think it's crucial and often we want to do a lot of activity and we forget to rest and so like resting between the rotations and trying to rest very well, like to go low, to eat well and that makes a huge difference I think too.
00:13:02
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, pretty similar there. I think there are very small hints, and I think it's not studied yet in depth, that there are some things in our body which really kind of remember the process of acclimatization. I think there are some very few studies on that, but nothing really solid. And I have the feeling, yeah, I just know my body so much better always.
00:13:31
Speaker
I don't know, I don't know, 20, 15 years or 20 years on expedition and altitude every year. So you kind of know your body so much better and you know where you can push when you
00:13:47
Speaker
And also in the beginning, I remember I was way too scared to really go full gas because you read all these stories and like, oh my God, and then people just fall over and then they are dead. And this is like a terrible idea or whatever. And you have this huge respect, which everybody should have, definitely.
00:14:08
Speaker
But over the years, over 20 years in the Himalayas, you know your body better. But then, of course, there are examples where people that climbed all 8,000 meter peaks, and after that, they went on expedition and they got it wrong.
00:14:25
Speaker
And so still, I think you never should lose the respect, but you can kind of push harder and kind of experiment more in that kind of way. And yeah, like, for example, now when I was really surprised for talking, because Kylian talked about the rest days, like how
00:14:47
Speaker
consequent Killian was really taking these kind of rest days. I remember, for example, with Uli, he was like always going. He was like, like, hey, we do a rest day today. And he was like, kind of, OK, then I do another lab on Island Peak. And he did three times like Island Peak in three days, back to back to back. And I made the middle day. I did a rest day. And I think it's so important.
00:15:13
Speaker
That was something which was really cool to see, like when we were now the first time together on Expedition, that, I mean, I knew I have also to focus on my kind of program in a way, because I couldn't kind of, you know, do the same, maybe intensity like Killian did. But in the end, we had really super nice rest periods in furniture, which is lower down than base camp, 4,200 meters, and we really stick to them and rested.
00:15:43
Speaker
And that's, I think, an interesting point that you felt there would be so much advantage to dropping all the way down to Ferrece out of base camp, that you guys were willing to make that, you know, several hour journey back and forth. And what gave you or how did you arrive at that decision?
00:16:04
Speaker
Well, I mean, I did the same in 2019 and it felt really good. And I said like, yeah, I would really love to do the same. The lodge there is amazing. And now it was even better because we were really on our own there. And so with the whole kind of COVID situation and the combo, it was really good there. But in general, like this walk down, the moment you have, I think,
00:16:31
Speaker
I don't know, two or three nights, maybe three nights down there, I think it's worse to go down. Because for Kian anyway, he just rolls down. I have really to walk down. I have to put a little bit more effort in. But then it's absolutely worse to go down and have a nice bed. We had just this little bit more...
00:16:55
Speaker
Like maybe we are just like a generation of spoiled Himalayan climbers already in a way. But I think if you have the possibility and you don't have this on K2 in Pakistan, you can't do that. And it's really like when Everest is there on the south side, it's a huge advantage that you can do it. And I felt super good 2019 and I think now it was also really nice.
00:17:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think I'm a big believer of not sleeping in high altitude. I have never spent a night over 6,500 meters ever in a climb. And I think that's good because the lower you sleep, the best you can recover. And then it's all about
00:17:49
Speaker
I think when you do expedition, it's trying to maintain your fitness. And of course, like after a while, like with all these race days, it can go down. I'm trying to, that the acclimatization is going up. So try to, that these two curves, they don't drop down. So I think they, yeah, if you leap lower, like you are able to maintain the fitness for longer.
00:18:16
Speaker
And I think that's what we eat, and especially if you are able to go racing to a place where it's not mineral, like base comes, especially in Everest, it's super mineral, so it drops in size, and it's not a very nice environment for that. And you go down to village where it's green around, where you have good food, you have a bed, just the sleep quality, it's so much better, and I think it makes a big difference.
00:18:46
Speaker
I mean, two points to that. I mean, I slept at camp three one night. So I stick to sleeping at 7,200, 7,300 for one night. So that was a difference. Like I still kind of had the feeling, I still think I want to, you know, go for that night. And maybe at one point I stopped this as well and then tried to
00:19:10
Speaker
to do the same, just 6,000. And I totally kind of see the point, like what Kylian is saying, for these nights, they take so much out. It's like even sleeping higher, I think, is definitely... And in the old days, I did this, so I reduced these nights a lot, and now it was one night at 7,300, which I had.
00:19:33
Speaker
And there was another point. Ah, yeah. And the other point for going down, I think one thing I would change the next time is that I really, I did one time, one mini strengths workout, just this unboxed step, you know, like our kind of like a reduced classic upper-ass lead and ME workout, kind of gym workout thing there.
00:19:56
Speaker
with only body weights and box step and this kind of stuff. And I failed my legs three days, I don't know. And it was a mini thing and I failed that. And I think with something like this, I would love to experiment the next time, for example, in these lower elevations, like for two or four thousand to sprinkle in some of these strengths workout and would like to see if you can maybe
00:20:20
Speaker
at least keep the kind of strength level a little bit longer from your legs or something like that. Interesting, very interesting. So how many days were you taking between rotations when you were down in Ferrece at 4200 meters? Do you remember just roughly how long you would stay there?
00:20:46
Speaker
was between like three, four days. Then like in the end we take some longer, but it was more because the weather. So you try to, but I think like between three and five days. So normally because normally it was to go down then do a one complete rest day or like just a walk and then like one or two training days, one rest day and they go up again, something like that. Yeah.
00:21:13
Speaker
What are your thoughts on that idea, Killian, about trying to maintain some strength training of some sort? Because as you know, it's not possible to do very high intensity at those high elevations. And so you can lose a little bit of fitness that way and some strength. And have you ever tried anything like that?
00:21:34
Speaker
No, I think it's... I have never tried to do, like, strength work when I'm there, but I think it's very interesting because you are losing muscle when you are in expedition, and probably if you are sleeping low, so you are resting well, if it's not... Yeah, if it's a comfortable place, I think it's just studying. I think it's something that, yeah, we need to explore more in the future.
00:22:04
Speaker
Maybe they're going to have to build, after people listen to this podcast, they're going to have to build a bigger lodge in Ferche to handle all the people coming down from Evers Base Camp that want to spend their recovery days down there.
Managing COVID-19 Risks at Base Camp
00:22:17
Speaker
How did you guys manage the whole COVID craziness around Base Camp? That must have been really a big challenge.
00:22:26
Speaker
Well, definitely it was. I mean, I think there were two components for me at least. There was this outside component when I had at one point the feeling that really like the journalists and the media and people who were not even in a part, they kind of would love that
00:22:48
Speaker
that the season were ended there in Everest just for an example of like of yeah like like I don't know an example forward but but just like hey you've seen we told you it's like you shouldn't go and and now they should close down so this was the one stress I think which I felt where where we had this uncertainty always of oh my god maybe they shut it down and you kind of tried to
00:23:14
Speaker
to not get too much into it. And it's just like, if it happens, it happens. And we knew this from the beginning that this could happen at any moment. And then the other component was the one really where we are, like in the Kumbu. And often this were completely different toward the media portrayed from the outside, from the other side of the world, kind of their perspective. And there,
00:23:42
Speaker
It was very, yeah, like it was strange in a way because I think in the end, the Everest is always kind of a mirror of the rest of the world, of the society outside what they do. You know, like here in Spain, I mean, I'm in someone based in Spain, and when they finished, when they didn't extend the state of emergency,
00:24:08
Speaker
the government said, okay, now we cannot have any kind of curfew. And that day, it was Friday, you know, Saturday was the first day where there were no curfew. So midnight Saturday, from Friday to Saturday, the people were allowed to go outside. So they were, and normally until 10 o'clock in the evening was the curfew before. So there were these weird two hours.
00:24:33
Speaker
where nobody was allowed outside, but then at midnight, they start to go partying, like in everywhere. It was like a big fiesta. And you think like, okay, like how does this work? You know, the virus is not like, because there is no curfew anymore or no state of emergency, the virus goes away. No, it doesn't go like this. And the same for the base camp. And if people don't realize that,
00:24:59
Speaker
You know, just because they're in a base camp, they're in a bubble, and at the moment, maybe nobody has symptoms that it cannot kind of come up there and suddenly spread around, then it's just, yeah, it's the same kind of behavior in a way.
00:25:18
Speaker
And so that's, I think, a little bit what we saw there and then just kind of, yeah, the people were really had this feeling, oh, we are in a bubble, so we are kind of safe here. And for us, it was pretty clear, like we kept super strictly distance to everybody. We didn't had meals in the dining tent when there were others. We went always down to our lodge where in the end there was
00:25:45
Speaker
Nobody and it was just us we had like single rooms in the lodge we we even when we were sitting Yeah somewhere in a room together. We kept the mask on and so even we kind of saw we are not in a bubble like we do you know and so so we really tried as much as possible to Yeah, like to to stay away from everybody and it worked quite well I would say and I I had never the feeling that oh my god. I'm we are
00:26:15
Speaker
in a bad situation here or that we are super high risk. I mean, not more than going somewhere here to the supermarket.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I think it's that it's just like to take common sense. But unfortunately, it was, as David said, like some people that were just like living in another world. But I think that happened in every country. Like you see like how we act.
00:26:52
Speaker
uh in front of these things and you saw just the same in the base come so as people taking care people taking less care and i then like i think in the villages down like uh uh people was like uh
00:27:07
Speaker
taking care, doing normal. So it was kind of without any tourists or very few tourists, but in the villages, I wouldn't say the situation was pretty normal because it was not a lot of interaction compared to maybe the base camp where it was more movement.
00:27:24
Speaker
And then it was really also interesting to see what changed so much during my time when I arrived there, like beginning of April, when I arrived in the villages, everybody there was, like there were only more or less only local people and because there were not much trekkers around, some trekkers at that point.
00:27:44
Speaker
because they just started to open and nobody had a mask and everybody was like, no, Corona or COVID is not here. We don't have this. And everybody was so happy to see some tourists coming and to open up. And they were so excited to have a finally after this kind of drought of no tourists, which is brutal for them.
00:28:08
Speaker
tourists coming so there was kind of normal and then slowly the numbers kind of started and then this kind of yeah the variant from India came over which had nothing to do with the with the climbers so it's not that it would have come either way with or without open
00:28:27
Speaker
climbing peaks there and then we saw during the time we were there how it changed and suddenly all the people in the villages they suddenly were wearing masks and they were more careful and at that point I also don't know what
00:28:46
Speaker
like to close then the mountain or to stop the season, I don't know if that would have been good for anything, like if it would have made a change because the oxygen, which is used, I mean, we didn't use oxygen, but the oxygen was there on Everest. It's quite a lot, but it's a drop for what you would need to kind of
00:29:08
Speaker
like give somebody with severe COVID symptoms in a hospital. So this is just a symbolic kind of gesture, if you want so. And then to suddenly end the season like midway when everything is on the mountain and the people suddenly have to go back when it's the worst to get back to Kathmandu and all of this.
Challenges and Risks in Climbing Expeditions
00:29:33
Speaker
So I think it's,
00:29:34
Speaker
I don't have like an answer to it, but I think it's just like, it's not as kind of easy to say, hey, it would have been better to stop the season. And certainly some of the expeditions there were stopped, right? I mean, there were a number of expeditions that had to forego their summit attempts, right? From what I understood, some of the Sherpa got sick and some of the European Westerners got sick as well.
00:30:01
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's the difference. If you are doing expedition by yourself or if you are running an expedition, a commercial expedition, because if you are going for yourself, you are accountable of your health, but that's all. While when you are running expedition, and I think for commercial expeditions, if they got some people in their staff sick,
00:30:25
Speaker
Then, of course, they need to cancel because it's that the clients will not climb by themselves. So they need to have all the full stuff and all that. So I think it was mostly promises like when. But yeah, if they got like Sherpas or they got like some porters seek, they needed to cancel.
00:30:47
Speaker
because it was not enough people for them in the mountain to climb. I think I lived the same experience in 2019 when it was a big ceremony in the mountain and if you were alone, you could pass, but if you were in a commercial expedition, you would not send the Sherpas to cross the Kumbu Icefall because you put their lives in risk. So I think it's also to make the difference between if you are
00:31:17
Speaker
Yeah, going to climb the mountain by yourself or you are like employing people and putting them in risk. Absolutely. That's a great point. Thanks for making that. The takeaway for me from what you've just said is that
00:31:36
Speaker
For you guys, it was, in a way, perhaps easier because you had this independence and mobility. Obviously, you're very, very experienced at this sort of thing, so you're able to make risk assessments and judgments on the mountain, both on the mountain and off the mountain.
00:31:52
Speaker
and be very flexible in the way you approach this, whereas a big commercial expedition wouldn't have that same sort of flexibility. And of course, as you said, the clientele that's all going on those trips usually doesn't have the experience to make those kind of judgment calls themselves. But it speaks all the more to having the experience that you guys have when you go there, being able to fend for yourself.
00:32:23
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think it's also totally okay to go there with a commercial expedition, hire a good guide, hire a good company, and do it in that way if you want this experience. It's nothing wrong with that.
00:32:41
Speaker
But yeah, you're for sure way more dependent on all these kind of puzzle pieces which have to fit together. And I mean, we are also dependent on a lot of puzzle pieces which have to fit together from our own heads to the conditions. And we are also, on a mountain like Everest, you're always affected also from what the other big expeditions are doing.
00:33:06
Speaker
It's not that you're completely independent on that, but of course the flexibility we have just for that we don't use oxygen. Once the kind of big ship over a huge expedition kind of started or took off, like when they start to use oxygen,
00:33:26
Speaker
like from Chem 2 then it has to kind of keep going because otherwise they have not enough oxygen for halfway up and then down and then another round or most of the times they don't have this kind of network and for me it was really this time also
00:33:46
Speaker
interesting and cool to see like the Nepali agencies now, for example, they start to catch up so good. I mean, we had a kind of insight in this Bahrain team, for example, and it was so impressive how good they... I mean, there are no mountaineers, you know, but they did it in a way
00:34:10
Speaker
that they made everything possible to make it maximum safe and without a risk. And then you see, on the other hand, people who tried to save like here, a thousand and there, a thousand and there. But still, there are also no mountaineers. And then this is where the... I don't know. I don't know if we can say this here, but where it hits the fan. I don't know.
00:34:35
Speaker
I think we can say that. If you beep that out here, I don't know. I don't think so. No, we don't need to do that. We don't need to censor anything. Did you go with a Nepalese trekking agency that your operator that you were affiliated with? Because I know you use some of their base camp facilities and you must have been on their permit to help pay for the icefall work and that sort of thing. How did you guys manage that?
00:35:07
Speaker
Yeah, like actually it was, I got the permit for last year with an employee agency. And then like last year was canceled, like everything. So then they, I got the money for this year. So it was a, yeah, an employee agency. And basically it was like,
00:35:34
Speaker
is to get the permit. You need to go through an agency and basically what we wanted was to have permit for the mountain, the fees for garbage and the icefall. And that was all. And then we got a tent in the base camp that actually we didn't use that much because we were going all the way to
00:35:59
Speaker
two parades almost all the time, but it was good to have that too. I mean, how many days you slept in base camp here? And this was like record low. Yeah, I think like, I think three or four days in base camp, so yeah. Four nights, oh my God. Four nights in base camp maximum, yeah, not much.
00:36:19
Speaker
I had a little bit more because I did one more rotation in the beginning and then we got bad weather so I had to wait a little bit longer in base camp so I think I have like in total 9 or 10 but yeah. There's not much. Not much at all. There must have been some, and both of you are very experienced at climbing these big mountains.
00:36:46
Speaker
But I would be curious to know about lessons you learned on this trip compared to previous trips.
Training, Cyclones, and Environmental Challenges
00:36:54
Speaker
And obviously, you brought a lot of knowledge and experience with you into this. I mean, I know that from my working very closely with David around him with his training,
00:37:06
Speaker
But I think the training went especially well this year for him. And I know he was very fit. He was kind of worried about showing up in base camp and with you, Kilian. But it sounds like it worked out pretty well. But other than that, the training aside, or maybe Kilian, how did you feel about your preparation, your training for this year? Did you feel as good as you did in 2019 and 2017?
00:37:33
Speaker
I think so. I think fitness was good, both of us. We were fit in the mountain, we could move quickly. Of course, the first weeks you go there, it's always very, very hard to climb the third rotations. But I think we were... In terms of fitness, it was great. And I think in terms of acclimatization, it was very good too. And then it's...
00:38:00
Speaker
I would say it was a bit frustrating this year since you feel like you are physically ready and we were well acclimatized and then it's like the 15th of May we were like, okay, ready to go. And then it's just conditions or whether that it aligns and you are waiting, waiting, waiting. And that's always frustrating not to be able to give
00:38:27
Speaker
a solid try or to put everything on there. But for the preparation, looking backwards now, what could we change for having a better chance? I don't think preparation or acclimatization, I think it went
00:38:46
Speaker
It went great. You always can improve things. But I think that was good. So it was a good example to keep for the following years.
00:39:02
Speaker
And David, what about your thoughts? Yeah. I think, yeah, they're clear and is right. I think it's difficult. I think with these situations we had, they were coming these two cyclones in like a super short periods, which totally messed up all the forecast and the weather in the end.
00:39:23
Speaker
And that I would like to change for next time, please. If that's possible. But from the preparation and the acclimatization, how we move up and down the mountain, I think that's super cool. Of course, we can tweak, I think, always on the gear side and on the kit. There, of course, I think we both come back and have like, oh, we should maybe, you know, this and this here.
00:39:50
Speaker
And I have, for example, this electric heating socks, which I, again, kind of, I said, okay, that works now good. But again, when I came home now, I wrote down like, okay, here and here, I have to change it from just from the system, things like that. I think it's always, and it's fun to work there better and or to improve these kinds of stuff.
00:40:11
Speaker
And then I think for the next time it's really cool because we know I think about 6,000 meters we kind of like yeah we work really well together as a team. I mean below we worked also really good as a team I think but of course there is also something which I think is super important always
00:40:29
Speaker
if you have to acknowledge kind of where our background is, where we come from, and it would be stupid, you know, that if I would try to, you know, run as fast as Killian from base camp down to Ferris, and often also we timed it in a way that...
00:40:48
Speaker
For me, it was way more easy to just then don't see him kind of on the horizon or start with Killian. Even it would have been nice to kind of, you know, do a chatty chat. But in the end, it stresses me way more out if I tried to keep up there. And so I think this is...
00:41:04
Speaker
in general is always always good if you especially in altitude I think that you really focus on your own pace and and don't let you kind of you know carry away and I think above 6 000 meters it worked really well and there of course it's always cool also to have someone I think to to like compared to my 2019 when I was alone
00:41:27
Speaker
I enjoyed it quite a lot to be together with someone and in general I'm not kind of someone who actually enjoys it so much to be alone. I think I love to be in a team where it fits the team dynamics and where that fits and so there I think it's really good and is this super important to have someone I think yeah where all these kind of boxes I take.
00:41:51
Speaker
Yeah, and just one other thing, actually, from when we tried to go up the last day in the normal road, what was interesting is that both of us, we felt like sick somehow, and we didn't find why. But probably the only thought that we
00:42:17
Speaker
that it came out, it was about like maybe some kind of insulation or things like that. And it's true that at the end of the spring, it's hot. It's very, very warm, both in base camp or in camp too. And if you are in a tent, like it's just a sauna, like you are...
00:42:35
Speaker
you are just sweating so much and it's difficult to rest in that. So I think that's also a difference on trying to sleep down and not be intense. Just before going up, to try to cool down. Because when you climb without oxygen, every
00:42:58
Speaker
single thing makes a difference and probably just to have this kind of installation that it's something that it might be interesting to look a bit more into it. That is not about the preparation or the acclimatization but just these small things like
00:43:16
Speaker
food, like how to improve food, because like, you know, expedition also, like after a lot of days, eating the same, you are like, oh, that's so hard to eat. And just like these small things, I think like food, the recovery or like to be cooled down in temperature when you are in the high camps, things like that, that this makes also difference. That's, yeah, that's the thing.
00:43:41
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I totally forgot about the food thing we had. Totally, yeah. Because it was like so, like we were, what should we eat? What should we eat? It was really difficult this time. And so for sure there we need to, I need to find something which works better.
00:43:58
Speaker
And I'm also pretty sure that in the end, like the day, because we got a lot of, or I at least got some comments and probably you as well, that people said like, oh, for sure you were just like running so much up and down the, all the kind of weeks before that when you summit attempt, you were totally kind of tired. And that's why you were
00:44:19
Speaker
we are turning around and that's why you feel shit and it was definitely not that it was so much difference and then I think it was the sun exposure the day before and we had the same kind of sun exposure on like acclimatization
00:44:34
Speaker
and rounds there when we but it was always we slept then after a hot day we slept in camp two and and this time we started both in the evening and started to walk through the night so our body didn't have this kind of nice
00:44:52
Speaker
like long nights because it's long nights there our body didn't have this kind of 10-12 hours like in the night just lying and resting and kind of getting again all this kind of yeah like like a small heat stroke if you want to say so kind of out of your body and and because we started in the evening and continued to walk up to to camp
00:45:15
Speaker
came to the south call to 8,000 meters. And this was the only time we really did this after this sun exposure, if I'm right. And that's why I think we felt it's so different or why it struck us so hard there.
00:45:35
Speaker
And the thing was, really, we started with two-hour delay from Chem 2, because Kylian, he came directly from base camp, and I went in the morning up, and then I had the whole day in Chem 2, and started going up. And the funny thing is that when we met then at the Southcoil,
00:45:55
Speaker
Like Killian just said to me, I had this kind of really thing. I said, I had exactly the same. I mean, I can't believe it. We had exactly the same kind of symptoms. And so we were like, oh my God, that's really crazy. You know, as if we would have, yeah, like agreed on that before, which kind of symptoms we pick in a way, but it wasn't like that.
00:46:19
Speaker
Well, you were certainly moving fast. And I think that was what was, you were uploading information so that I could see it, David, on a, you know, not on a daily basis, but when you'd get back down to Perce, you would put some data up for me to see. And I mean, the rate of ascent that you guys were doing at 8,000 meters is remarkable. So I think clearly you were very fit, both of you. I mean, some of the fastest,
00:46:47
Speaker
rate of climb I've ever seen at those kind of altitudes. And I think it's something that often goes ununderstood by people that haven't been on big glaciers, even at high altitude, just how hot it can get. And especially I think in the Western Coombe there, where it's like a big reflector oven and just hitting you from all directions and lying in a tent becomes almost unbearable and you certainly can't rest when you're
00:47:16
Speaker
in those kind of situations. And it's sort of, it seems like a strange thing where one day you're worried about frostbite and then the next day you're worried about heat stroke. It's kind of how do those things fit together. But it sounds like you both were demonstrating, I mean, I'm certainly no doctor, but I have a little bit of wilderness medical experience. And it sounds like both of you were kind of having some symptoms of heat stroke.
00:47:43
Speaker
Yeah, and that's something that you cannot believe that in Everest, you always picture that, like, frozen temperatures and that, but actually, it's super, super warm during the day. Yeah. And for sure, it's something which I have to, where I struggle way more. If it's cold, I do way better.
Climbing Culture: Media, Authenticity, and Public Perception
00:48:04
Speaker
And compared to, yeah, a little bit too hot, I really, my performance goes down like...
00:48:15
Speaker
David and I talked to Killian briefly about bringing up another subject that's maybe a little more controversial and that is this
00:48:25
Speaker
seeming pandemic of self-promotion that we see on social media with climbers talking about what they're going to climb and how they're going to do this or that. And I wanted to get the impressions that what you guys feel about that because both of you are quite low key in your approach to these mountains and how you
00:48:47
Speaker
I'm sure you weren't waving any banners about what you planned to do when you got to Everest. You just showed up and did what you could and came pretty close, but obviously didn't work out the way you had hoped.
00:49:02
Speaker
But does it seem to the two of you, and you're much more in the mainstream of this kind of information than I am, but David and I have certainly discussed this, that there is more and more of this sort of shameless self-promotion, I would call it, that is going on. And do you think that's driven by sponsorship needs and money, or what's behind all that?
00:49:30
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think it's driven by the culture of communication we have today, and I think it changed. Of course, it was a period of time where
00:49:48
Speaker
Like to plan expedition in any big summit, you need to apply for the permit. It was one permit per mountain every year. So then, of course, you needed to publish or to say what you were going to do because it would take like two years before you get the permit and that. But we came from that to today where climbing in Himalayas, it's like climbing in the Alps more or less. Like you go there, you climb and whatever.
00:50:19
Speaker
But then I think it's very easy to make projects on a map, like to dream. But from that to reality, it's a long way. And I think it's to tell
00:50:33
Speaker
Yeah, to tell a succeed before you do it, that's just bullshit. It's not reality. Coming from competition, you are world champion when you have win the race, you climb a mountain when you have done the project. And I think today, how magnificent
00:50:58
Speaker
how the medias magnifies everything. If you say anything, it just so magnifies and it's just like so many people just talking about before it's actually done. So I think it's better to put the work on doing the things, doing the project climbing, and then explain what you have done.
00:51:26
Speaker
than just trying to say things that you don't know.
00:51:30
Speaker
if you are able to do it or not. And that's, yeah, it's more common. I think it's also because it's very easy to say, I will do that. You just need to put a post in social media. And actually, it's much more difficult to do it, but probably the people got the promotion and the awareness just from saying it and then they don't care if
00:51:58
Speaker
if it's in their capacities or not. Yeah, I mean, for sure, the new way you can self-promote yourself and without any filter make this stage so much bigger than anybody can just put out there his lifetime dream. And, you know, I never would say, hey, don't dream big, do it, you know, like, but the kind of
00:52:27
Speaker
like where I start to have a not a problem but where I find like this is just like a little bit kind of office when people who never climbed any 8000 meter peak without oxygen they suddenly say they do like the whole kind of horseshoe traverse more or less in the next in a season where it's kind of it's just
00:52:50
Speaker
It would be if I say, hey, I go this summer to UTMB and I will win it, you know, it's kind of like would be ridiculous. And I think I am, of course, an ideal word. I would also love always to go under the radar, just go to the mountain. Nobody knows I'm there. Then I do something. And if I really pull that off, then I go make it public. But I also think
00:53:16
Speaker
if you're really like in the professional kind of bracket then it's also okay to maybe go to a mountain and say hey you maybe want to do that on that project but we know it's super unlikely that everything needs to be for a place and but still you kind of should have a
00:53:35
Speaker
like your knowledge and your ability should at least be matching with that project. And then I think it's okay. It's okay to go to the... Yeah, if you qualify for the Olympic Games or you go to the UTMB and have their points and you're one of the favorites, it's okay if you say upfront, I really want to win that race. It's okay to have that.
00:54:02
Speaker
But because everybody knows anything can happen during that race. Anybody knows everything can happen during an Everest attempt. It must be being honest, I think, not to try to sell more than it really is and just to be honest about
00:54:26
Speaker
about yourself and about the project. I think that's, at the end, it's just this. It's just being humble about your ambitions, even if they are big, but not being realistic, I think, too.
00:54:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think that is this point, like being realistic about what you are really, yeah, can do and taking into account that, yeah, everything needs to be perfect. And I saw it already now two times, 2019. And this year, yeah, I felt super good until I turned around more or less. So it's kind of, you know, everything can happen.
00:55:11
Speaker
And life can get in the way. And as you're saying, Killian, it's a lot easier said than done. Yeah, all these things. It's easy to talk big and easy to talk about them beforehand. And, you know, I've been involved in this world since, you know, for all, gosh.
00:55:29
Speaker
but over 50 years now and things have changed a lot. And I remember in experiences when I was young and much more very active in climbing and where people would talk about what they were going to do.
00:55:48
Speaker
But when they got shot down, their attempts failed. It was kind of a humiliating experience. I think people would learn from it, like you were saying, killing to be humble. And it doesn't take too many of those things where you've been bragging about what you're going to do and then failed before you learn the lesson that maybe being humble is a little better way to go.
00:56:15
Speaker
And then certainly when I spent years working with Steve and coaching him, I saw that firsthand. And then this other, the next generation of climbers coming along and he was certainly one of those ones that was quite humble about his approach. And obviously there was no social media in those days or nothing like it is today.
00:56:41
Speaker
But it sometimes took weeks and weeks, if not months, for people to find out what Steve had already done because we had to wait until the next climbing magazine came out and had some information about it.
00:56:55
Speaker
And I mean, there you had the filter of the journalists who wrote the story in the magazine. And nowadays, actually with not being humble, with being just loud, you get quite far, I have to say. And you can be pretty successful in terms of kind of sponsoring and all of this, if you just be loud.
00:57:17
Speaker
Maybe that's an angle that a lot of people are playing. What have we not covered that you guys feel like we should talk about a bit? Anything?
00:57:30
Speaker
Well, I mean, one saying just pops out just like a little bit to the last point here that I think at the 8,000 meter peak, especially on Everest, there is this kind of unique situation that this kind of commercial expedition, mountaineering, tourism, whatever you want to call it,
00:57:48
Speaker
kind of you know like kind of like goes through all kind of shades through the kind of other end of the spectrum where where where yeah like um
00:58:02
Speaker
professional athletes or whoever you want to call them where mountaineers with a lot of experience kind of try to do something and and and still it gets kind of all muddled up in one kind of part of or called Everest and and this is very unique I think in in that kind of regard where where then it's so difficult to have
00:58:24
Speaker
to really see and also like report or read about all these nuances. And because if you see in any other sports in rock climbing, for example, it's just great in running and ultra running and trail running. It's just the time in the end which immediately tells you kind of the
00:58:43
Speaker
where the people are. And even they all line up for the same UTMB from maybe amateurs to the professionals. I mean, in the end, it's just the time would totally kind of, yeah, like put it in a right perspective. And ever as there are no roots in mountaineering, which is beautiful, there is this kind of pitfall that it's kind of all, yeah, kind of muddled up and being together in one part.
00:59:11
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think it's more than in monitoring, helping his needs.
00:59:19
Speaker
We probably fail on explaining what alpinism is. I mean like all alpinism, like what's the difference between a first cent or what's the difference between alpine style or another style, what's the difference between going with oxygen or without oxygen. I think that's something that
00:59:41
Speaker
public and not only like I'm not talking about the guy in New York or in Paris but even like practice trainers like people that go to Montague they don't really understand what are the the difference or they might think that they are small differences
00:59:59
Speaker
when in reality we know that it's a completely different world and I think we have failed to explain that well so like people can comprehend the sport better and especially today when we see that it's
01:00:16
Speaker
it's this much more like, yeah, it's more expedition in the mountains, so it's not only alkenes that they go to the mountains, it's easier for the public to miss out and to don't see the differences, but that's primarily our fault that we haven't been able to say the differences. Then in other sports, yeah,
01:00:44
Speaker
everybody will know what it is, like if you drive a motorbike or if you drive a bicycle, but because it's been explained or like doping, like that it's bad, but in opinion, it haven't been explained that, so saying we have a work to do, like to educate.
The Evolution of Himalayan Climbing and Public Education
01:01:02
Speaker
And I mean, it's not good or bad, it's just different, but it's important to comprehend what this difference means.
01:01:11
Speaker
I think that's a great point both of you bring up. And thank you for doing that because I've certainly seen that evolve over my lifetime. I mean, when my trips to the Himalaya were like you were saying, Killian, there was one permit issued for the mountain. And if you didn't get that permit, you might be waiting two or three years until another opportunity came. And that definitely changed the
01:01:38
Speaker
the approach that people took to these mountains. And I think that one of the effects that I've seen as someone who trains these amateur mountaineers to go climb these big mountains is that
01:01:56
Speaker
People, when I was in that realm, climbing something like Mount Everest or K2, which for me was kind of the height of my climbing experience, was you had to spend 20 years paying your dues before you would even consider taking on a task like that. And I think that's something that isn't well appreciated today because of the changes in the approach to climbing these mountains now.
01:02:26
Speaker
and the fact that so many permits get issued. And then the publicity around people climbing them, and as you said, Killian and David,
01:02:38
Speaker
when the general public doesn't know the difference between your record attempt or your record that you set on Everest a couple years ago and just their friend who went on a commercial expedition. They don't really see that there's a distinction, whereas
01:02:57
Speaker
You know, if when you line up at the start of a race or when you look at the results of a race, you can see very distinctly, oh, this person is, you know, this person can run it, you know, a 26 minute, you know, 10,000 meters and I run a 46 minute, 10,000 meters. That's a huge difference in ability. And I think that that's just not as obvious. I don't know. How do you think that could be done to make, you know, make it more
01:03:26
Speaker
into the public consciousness that we're almost talking two different sports here in some ways. I think it's a job to do it. I mean, like we need to explain these differences and educate on that. And I think because opportunities in general, they are pretty private persons, like
01:03:49
Speaker
Yeah. So it's hard to get out the words. It's hard to get that out. It's more like we want to keep the things for ourselves. So I think it's just to open up on this and bring these conversations. And I think it's often like seeing that you want to be
01:04:08
Speaker
against something and it's not that like a It's not to be against the guy that goes without general against the guy that goes like in you know Expeditional style it just like different and explain the differences and and to get past these you are on this loop or these other club, but it just like to to
01:04:33
Speaker
to, yeah, not be on the hate talk, but to be on just like educational talk and explain differences. I think that that's something that, yeah, first as like helping us, we need to explain what are those differences, why we climb this way, why we
01:05:00
Speaker
we've announced to use this technology or this means that they exist to climb a mountain. And that's then the goal of mountaineering is to climb summit on the most difficult way, you know, like taking away like facilities. But yeah, we need to be able to explain that to the last public.
Supplemental Oxygen and Infrastructure Support
01:05:25
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. It's our job and with good journalists who kind of spread that word and put it even in better phrases and then to educate the people. I think where I often, it's difficult often for me at least,
01:05:44
Speaker
that if you say something, yeah, you don't want to be kind of, you know, pointing with fingers on others, and you just kind of show it just like on your kind of example, what you think is, is like, like a style or your style, you should explain, let's say like this.
01:06:02
Speaker
And then often it's written then so quickly that it's that you are jealous about like what the others are or jealous about this other style. And which is which is definitely not the case. And also like, like Elian said, I think it's not that that that I think, yeah, like like people who can who climb with oxygen, it's it's totally fine for me. I have nothing against them. And and
01:06:31
Speaker
And so it's just, yeah, making it clear that it's a totally different sport. Like you said, it's good. How many people have climbed Everest now in total? Do you guys have any idea? I don't have the numbers here, but I, yeah.
01:06:52
Speaker
I think like thousands, a good couple of thousands. And how many people do you think have climbed it without oxygen? I think it's like 200 or 250, something like this without oxygen and like a couple of thousands for sure. I think it's like between the 1% and the 3% of the oxygen. Yeah, that would make sense.
01:07:19
Speaker
So that right there tells you a lot. That's just the difference in those two numbers tells you quite a bit.
01:07:28
Speaker
Yeah. And then, I mean, then on a mountain like Everest, of course, like if we climb it, we have the normal route and we benefit from all the people who are there with oxygen. You know, we have to tell that as well, this side as well. And this is the track, it's fixed road, this is the ice falls. This is so, so often you just leave these puzzle pieces in your storytelling away because you and the same, like every
01:07:57
Speaker
person, if they don't have to tell, I climbed Everest with oxygen, they leave this with oxygen away because it's just like, they know the difference to me. Or I think they, everybody knows the difference who climbed it, but you tell it, I climbed Everest and you don't say with oxygen or without oxygen. And the same is then, then yeah.
01:08:19
Speaker
like we need to acknowledge and we I think we do and I try always to really put this out there that we totally benefit on a normal route from all the infrastructure there. I mean on the icefall we would I mean Killian was in when you were the year before and there was no fixed lines I think very few and no tracks I mean you had like it took you hours through the icefall and now we did it in like one one and a half hours or whatever
01:08:46
Speaker
or something like that. So you see the difference, what it makes. And of course it makes, and again, this has nothing to do with alpinism going up the normal route
Training, Research, and Future Climbing Plans
01:08:58
Speaker
on Everest. This has nothing to do. It's like a sport, like for me, it would be a really cool sport achievement if I climb it without oxygen and without
01:09:09
Speaker
without somebody carrying my stuff. But I never would have put it under the alpinism umbrella because it has nothing to do with it. Sure. Well, I'm going to be respectful of your time. I know it's about 10 o'clock at night there or a little bit after. Anything else we should touch on?
01:09:38
Speaker
No, I just want to thank you because it's, I think, alpinism. It seems that the training topic, it's been hiding for many years. People, alpinism don't train, but that's false. Alpinism has been training always, and the job that you are doing to putting science on and looking from what other sports can bring to alpinism is changing a lot of things, and it's bringing some
01:10:07
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of good inputs and I think it's great to have podcasts and to have like resources where we can find like
01:10:16
Speaker
uh science about uh physiology or training science uh specific in happiness because it's not much studies it's not much done and it's a lot that it can be improved I believe and it can be done so it's just like yeah for for the folks that they are listening here to to to read all these things to to to get research that it's uh it's uh it's very interesting and I think you can improve a lot your
01:10:45
Speaker
your performance in any activity in the mountain, just like by knowing better how our body can improve with different training and with different methods. Thank you. And you, of course, played a big part of that in the second book, training for the uphill athlete, that we wouldn't have written that if it hadn't been for you. So I appreciate it. I remember when you contacted
01:11:12
Speaker
I think as you contacted Steve on some point after you'd read Training for the New Alpinism and you said, hey, this is great, but you should do a book like this about training for these other mountain sports. But that was the impetus for that. And I really appreciate your pushing us in that direction and then really helping me in the writing of that so that we could kind of make sure we were
01:11:39
Speaker
I wanted to be able to tell this information in a way that was very accessible for people. And then, especially when it came to the actual writing of training plans or telling people how to develop their own training plans, I think you and I had quite a good collaboration back and forth about how we might best do that. And so far, it seems like it's been well received. And so I'm thankful to you for your help with all that.
01:12:09
Speaker
Thanks. And David, I keep learning from you all the time about
01:12:17
Speaker
the limits of what people can do. There's a couple of the other professional athletes that I coach where I just keep being amazed. You and I have this long history now of using the same types of workouts or slightly modified versions of those workouts. And we just keep seeing gains year after year after year. I look back at your training logs from,
01:12:43
Speaker
two years ago in some of the comments I was making about, wow, I can't believe how fast and fit you are. And then I look at things that happened this year and they're so much faster and fitter than you were then. It's like, where's the, where's the end either.
01:12:58
Speaker
Either I wasn't doing a very good job then, and I'm doing a better job now, or we're just showing that, and I think, Killian, you're living proof of this, that these fitness gains you can build year after year after year for many, many years. So David, you've been a really critical part of my journey in learning about how to train athletes.
01:13:25
Speaker
It's been, it's a lot of fun. Thank you. I think it's a team. It's a team effort. And I mean, we all learn from each other. I mean, I learned from Kelia and I learned from Oli. I, you know, I learned from you and we kind of improve as a team. And that's what's super interesting. And that's what's fun to keep that journey going. It is fun.
01:13:45
Speaker
Well, I wish you two luck on your next adventure. I would imagine that this sort of wedded your appetite for perhaps doing another trip together, I hope, is it certainly seems like it went really well until it didn't go well. But I look forward to being able to bring you guys back sometime in the future and talk about the success on Everest. Thank you. It's good.
01:14:14
Speaker
Yeah, thanks. And for sure, it will be some more climbs together. Thanks for joining us today. For more information about what we do, please go to our website uphillathlete.com.