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Talking Terpenes
556 Plays3 months ago
There’s a good chance you’ve heard or read the word terpenes being bandied about the beer world of late. If you haven’t, there’s a very good chance you will at some point.
What we can confirm with certainty is that you have definitely had them in a beer – they’re aromatic compounds found in most plants and herbs, including hops. The reason they’ve become one of the hot terms of 2024 for brewers, suppliers and beer geeks, however, is the way they’re now being provided to and used by brewers in beers.
Without giving too much away – not least because you’ll gain a much better understanding from listening to the experts in this podcast episode – brewers now have access to terpenes in concentrated form which allows them to add specific characters to their beers, whether that’s enhancing a particular fruitiness in a pale ale or giving an IPA an aroma very much like the one emanating from the cupboard of your uni weed dealer.
They’re one of a growing number of new tools at the disposal of brewers, so we invited one who has been among the first to jump on them in Australia, Scott McKinnon of Wolf of the Willows, and Sam Bethune, who handles technical sales for Bintani, onto the show to tell us all about them: what they are, where they come from, how they’re used, and why they like them.
That’s only part of the discussion, however. Before we get to the technical stuff, they share their stories: how they fell in love with craft beer and later ended up making it their livelihood.
Scott’s story starts out as a ski bum on the slopes of Colorado, while Sam’s begins while touring the States in another guise – with a mate who’s also now in beer. With Wolf of the Willows’ tenth anniversary coming up, we chat about their XPA – one of the very first in Australia – and their evolution as a brewing company, while Sam takes us back to his days as Fixation’s first head brewer at the Incubator and to the High Country and the small hop farm he’s nurturing.
Come for the knowledge, stay for the laughs!
Links referenced in or relevant to the show:
Sydney Royal Beer & Cider Awards winners: https://craftypint.com/news/3575/more-trophy-success-for-esker-beer-co-in-sydney
Last Rites & T-Bone Move In Together: https://craftypint.com/news/3569/t-bone-and-last-rites-move-in-together
A Taste Of Old Blighty: https://craftypint.com/news/3572/a-taste-of-old-blighty
Turning Towards Terpenes: https://craftypint.com/news/3363/turning-towards-terpenes
Wolf of the Willows’ terpene beers: https://craftypint.com/beer/10433/wolf-of-the-willows-gelato | https://craftypint.com/beer/10259/wolf-of-the-willows-king-louis-xiii | https://craftypint.com/beer/10189/wolf-of-the-willows-pineapple-express-california-ipa
In Hop Pursuits: A Guide To New Hop Products: https://craftypint.com/news/3559/in-hop-pursuit-a-guide-to-new-hop-products
Australia’s Generation XPA: https://craftypint.com/news/2844/australias-generation-xpa
Sydney Beer Week: https://sydneybeerweek.com.au/
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Transcript
Introduction to Crafty Point Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello, welcome back to the Crafty Point podcast. I'm James. And I'm Will. And yeah, we've got a fascinating chat coming up later today with a couple of gurus from the industry. It's sort of technical, but also fun as well.
Sydney Beer Awards and Escobieco's Success
00:00:18
Speaker
Before we get to that, um I guess, chance to catch up on what's been happening over the last week? Yeah, yeah well, we've just found something on the Sydney Beer Awards and there's some very returning names in there, aren't there? Yeah, some familiar faces. So, yeah, Sydney Royal Beer Insider um Awards has been running for a number of years. In terms of entries, it's one of the the smaller awards, and but also has had a reputation for a long time um as, I guess, judging tough.
00:00:42
Speaker
um So I think that people put a lot of credit credibility into trophies and awards picked up there. um And Escobieco, which might be a new name to a lot of people, but it's, I guess, a bit of a brewery that's been a familiar face at awards, especially in Sydney, but elsewhere over the years. And was the Australian brewery um in Sydney's Northwest. Prebranded to Escobieco about two years ago. Yep, two years ago. um Their citrus Goza picked up the Champion Beer or Cider, plus some other awards.
00:01:10
Speaker
the West Coast IPA picked up an award as well. They won an award at the Ebers last year, I think, and prior to that as Australian brewery, they picked up on rewards for their Dark Ale and and various other beers. So yeah, I mean, it's a funny one. The actual business
Award-Winning Breweries: Reckless and Escobieco
00:01:24
Speaker
behind it's this big pub out in the northwest of Sydney, um you know, sports bar, gaming room and that kind of thing, change owners a few times, but they' they've kept a pretty solid that thread through the brewery yeah um and, you know, just keep keep kicking goals there. Australia's first brewery to can as well. One of the first craft brewery into cans ahead of Mountain Goat. Yeah. Back in the day. um But yeah, they're just going really well. And then a bunch of other sort of familiar faces. One of you. Yeah. restless so yeah they They got two trophies. Congratulations to Team Reckless. They're they're just absolutely killing it at awards, like D&D's, Ada's and Sydney
Sydney Royal Distillers Awards
00:02:00
Speaker
as well. Yeah.
00:02:01
Speaker
It's really cool to see. And then there's other familiar names filtered for their XBA. White Bay, another trophy for another lager and four points as well. Yeah. And also hiatus, um which is a, it's a project involving Nick from Molly Rose and a couple of other guys, yeah um non-alcoholic beers. They just released their second one not all long ago. And but it's their Pacific ale, which is brewed with a bit of a fruit extract.
00:02:21
Speaker
And if you haven't tried, it is a really um delicious non-out offering, their Pacific Ale. So yeah so um yeah, plenty of familiar faces there. And it was actually the first year they did the um the Sydney Royal Distillers Awards as well. um So that's clearly a direction they're looking to go in. yeah um The champion there was a 40-year-old brandy from St Agnes Distillery.
Breweries Collaborating for Efficiency
00:02:43
Speaker
So there you go, which they they were surprised didn't score 100 out of 100. So it must be pretty pretty amazing.
00:02:49
Speaker
um But yeah, so last last week you did a story we'll on a bit more, I guess collaboration within the beer industry, which is becoming, I guess, more common as people try and navigate that way. Yeah, absolutely. Collaboration or consolidation, or maybe both at the same time, T-Bone and Last Rites sort of moving in together and into a significant production brewery that T-Bone opened a couple of years ago.
00:03:10
Speaker
Last Rites have taken up space there. They've sort of come to an agreement where they'll both have their beers pouring, but also both utilize the space. So, you know, it saves them both money in terms of freight and all
Resurgence and Appeal of English Beer Styles
00:03:22
Speaker
those things. And it also ah gives them the opportunity to really leverage this, like, quite significant 40-heck brewery for T-Bane. Yeah, it could keep the tanks full, but they're both keeping their original sights, so you can still go to the Last Rites once a week and drink there, and they'll use their I guess, original 10-heck kit for for smaller batches and Last Rites will keep their place in Elizabeth Street in North Hobart. It's always cool and it's similar to Wildflower and um Mountain Culture as well to see sort of a ah venue become the home of a couple of breweries. I noticed that a few times when I was in America, but it it is taking off here, whether because of economic conditions to dictate it or it's it's just a smarter way to do business or it brings more opportunities. like it's um yeah
00:04:07
Speaker
It'll be interesting to watch that. I think we'll see plenty more of it. I was going to say, I definitely think we'll see more of it before the year's out. um And not before time, given I think we first discussed this earlier in the year. I've put together a piece on, I guess, what seems to be a mini revival renaissance of English should have older world style beer styles.
00:04:27
Speaker
Um, I think we first discussed it probably, was it coming into winter or maybe the start of winter? There was a run of just receiving dark miles and English IPAs and ASBs as well, which, you know, we already still have them in the core range, but same together, big limited release run.
00:04:42
Speaker
the last couple of notes as well. Yeah now so we've had a bit of a chat to Cornella Brewery they've just um well they actually launched to the world this brewery in Heathcote and trying to focus on Heathcote sorry I've only been here 16 years it's only an hour and a half up the road um Launched with sort of more traditional English-style beers. The two brewers, the two founders, spent time in Manchester before... Yeah, it was Conel Real Ale, was the original name. Yeah, and then they they kept an English ale and a best bit of in their core range until last year. They
Theatrical Aspects and Style Cycles in Beer
00:05:12
Speaker
went, you know what? We just did this too hard. And now they've actually got a whole sub-brand with Red Ale, Dark Ale and... Yorkshire Bino, Yorkshire Amber in there. and which They were telling me yesterday, yesterday the reason it's got Leeds United branding on and was that Leeds United looked like they were favourites to get promoted to premiership. So they were like, let's just do this, you know, and sort of pay tribute. And then Leeds didn't make promotion unless it had been a
00:05:35
Speaker
Anyway, they're still getting orders from the old Legion artist supporters of around the country. And then we spoke to Matt at Boat Rocker, who he's put out a whole heap of Yorkshire pale, Yorkshire dark, English IPA and stuff this year. And essentially wider thing is it coming back. And there was some theories that I guess you could think, oh, it's just things are cyclical and people are something a bit different after all these sort of juicy beers. But some of the things I hadn't really considered was, you know,
00:06:03
Speaker
there's not this hugely expensive dry hop at the end of these styles. So is mistake so at at a time when you're trying to sort of put beers into market that are more affordable it makes sense but also to talk about the theatre as well. Yeah that's what really stood out to me Matt from Cornell and talking about that you know ah probably all listeners will know what's going on with Guinness like biggest selling draft beer in the world huge in Australia at the moment so big for Gen Z drinkers when apparently they're not drinking any beer. So like, it's fascinating to see someone talk about that. And when you think of Guinness, you do think about theatre. It's such an important part of that brand. So if people are looking like that, looking for that in another way, then crapper is a really well-poised. yeah
00:06:46
Speaker
to strike in the same way that I think leukoside board taps can do it but there's something about a traditional beer engine that is very just beautiful to watch. Yeah I reckon that my work well i thought i think if you're into beer anyway and you walk into a pub or a brewery and there's one on the bar there's a very good chance that's going to be one of the first things you order um you know and it's probably not going to be proper caskill or whatever but they'll be brewed in such a way that it's going to be as close to it as it can be. And I do just think, you know, it definitely adds some sort of appeal. You know, you go to Love Shack or you go to Holgate or you go to any of these places that have them in there. And maybe there's a bit of sort of commonality there with the Luca side or like for the Czech lugs as well. It's something a bit more than just, I'll have that beer and I'll sit down. And I think, you know, it feeds into that whole idea of craft beer and craft breweries and and good venues trying to offer something that's an experience as well as just tasty.
00:07:39
Speaker
Yeah, I'd love to have like a head count on how many British beer engines there are in Australia. I think it would have grown a lot since kind of just because there are, I know a number of small breweries have put them in and it's hard to know how many there were five or six years ago. But if you could sort of work that out, I think there would be a.
00:07:55
Speaker
Another part of that story there that sort of been bubbling under but it's really hard to sort of tell and take stock of you as as well because it's all scattered. Yeah, for sure and I'm building will be almost most interesting though is whether those styles are still around in six months time or whether it has just been.
Challenges and Popularity of Brewing Stouts
00:08:12
Speaker
this, you know, this year's closest thing to a trend in beer, other than everyone closing. Well, I think sometimes like, um, markets can get, they can be small and strong, really good little markets, but they can get saturated as well. So if everyone, you know, early next year in autumn suddenly does ESBs, then it's probably not going to work out for anyone. And we see the same thing. It happens with Stout every so often. There's just too many breweries.
00:08:36
Speaker
in a certain city making dark beers and no one can get the tap. Everyone forgets about it. One brewery comes along and does a great dark ale and it takes off and so I was like, okay, because people want it. What was interesting actually as a side with both of those brewers I spoke to yesterday is that they both have core range stouts and both go really well for them. And it's kind of interesting that you have all the noise around other styles, but generally Most breweries that do have a stout and do it well, it does seem to to go well for them. It's another almost unspoken and and going well for them year round as well. you know That's kind of interesting to to acknowledge as well. Obviously, see but you know, their total output will be tiny and in the grand scheme of things, but still kind of interesting to hear.
Guest Introductions: Sam from Bintani and Scott from Wolf of the Willows
00:09:18
Speaker
um And in terms of other things, interesting to hear and our our guests on this week's show um taking the the topic of terpenes, which you've been sort of all over on the website for a while ever since you were in the States last year. Yeah, I love terpenes. I love what they do to beer. I've had um some really great beers with them, both in the States and after that trip coming back to Australia. I think they're really interesting. i know Brewers have been pretty quick to jump on them since, um, Bintani started bringing abstracts into the country, which, you know, one of today's guests is Sam Bethune, technical sales specialist at Bintani. I was so close. it's It's a name I can never quite manage. Sorry, Sam. And then, um, of course, Scott McKinnon, he's co-founder of Wolf of the Willows, um, one of the first breweries to
00:10:04
Speaker
really um push hard in this direction, running a series on it and last year into this year. So I'm really early adopters of that as well as a range of other ingredients. So I think if anyone wants to understand what they are, I think we get it across in sort of understandable layman's terms. I but the te stuff as well like i could even understand Sam's definition, so that's pretty good. But it was a great chat with them as well about how they got into beer. I mean, Sam was you know touring the world, well, I wouldn't say touring the world, but when he first had his first experience of craft beer. um He's also got a hop farm he tells us about up in the high country and obviously see Wolf of the Willows closing in on 10 years. so So we've had a bit of chat to them about them bringing one one of the first XPA's to market and and what they've bought. What's happening with that? So um one ah word of advice, we've had this annoying track, all sort of static lights. Sam came in towards the end of the the podcast again. Don't adjust your antenna, it's not that. um yeah
00:10:58
Speaker
yeah yeah we we're we're trying to work we've we've We've had shows where it hasn't happened. We've had some where it has. Our producer Matt's done an amazing job of of toning it down. and you but you You might still hear a bit of static. yeah We thought it was a software issue. Looks more like hardware at this stage. we're still one of these yeah One of these mics. We're still um working working to fix it. We've sort of got a temporary fix.
00:11:18
Speaker
their new mic so then if it's a mic issue we'll just get some fresh on sometimes i guess so yeah we'll be back with sam and scott um in a few moments enjoy the chat cheers we're joined by sam from bintani hello and scottie from war for the willows well Yeah, I guess for a chat, I guess technically about terpenes and some of the advanced products you guys have been using or I guess encouraging brewers to use around the country. First, we thought it would be good to hear a bit about your stories, how you guys got into craft beer, what you guys are up to. I thought, Scott, maybe start with you, Wolf of the Willows. Do you want to tell us a little bit about how you and Renee first got into craft beer and brewing and launching Wolf of the Willows? If you can remember that back that far, because we're on 10 years, I know.
Origins and Evolution of XPA Style
00:12:10
Speaker
There's a little bit of a distant memory that came from enjoying craft beer. So originally in the States, which actually comes full circle with the discussion today about terpenes, falling in love with craft beer over there and then basically coming back here and being pretty limited with choices.
00:12:31
Speaker
well but When were you over in the States? Was this just holidaying? Was it pre-kids? No, I went there when I was 19 and came back when I was twenty nearly So just as a ski bump, living in Colorado. and
00:12:47
Speaker
drinking a fair bit of beer, but also visiting a couple of the foundation breweries over there. mr ninety nine to two thousand And So very good days. Yeah, probably skiing with my cousins. He was living on a teepee on Big Mountain over there for a while, playing guitar and skiing naked, I believe. and Yeah. And so but that would that that would have been a bit of time. Did you come back and start brewing straight away after that or ah not suggesting you were super old or anything, but think you were a bit older than 22 when you started.
00:13:16
Speaker
Wolf of the Willows. No, I came back, and really got into home brewing over here, met Renee, who was working in the wine industry at that point in time and basically from there, patched the plan for Wolf of the Willows and was seeing the emergency craft beer here. so bit of business planning and a bit of financial management, a bit of saving. We're sitting here today. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and in terms of like, and you got a bit on the table here, maybe jump ahead one of the questions, but you launched with, um, tell us what you launched with and why. Ah, the lovely XPA. So, uh, looking at,
00:13:57
Speaker
Well, basically gaps in the the market over here and something that was different from what was currently available. At that point in time, there's a lot of weather legitimate or gray imported payloads coming in from the U.S. And a lot of them were quite frankly, pretty cooked. Very heavy on the crystal malt. So that sort of stone up payload kind of vibe.
00:14:22
Speaker
which doesn't age well. And so that kind of dictated the style of beer that we felt suited the Australian palate, which is dry, but pretty hot forward. And also the food that we get to enjoy and get exposure to, you know, like lots of coriander, lots of Southeast Asian food, which has links with some of the oils in hops and terpenes as well.
00:14:52
Speaker
yeah again linking it back in with what we're talking about. And in your XPA, if someone's, you know, you to be in the last few years, they'd be like, oh, XPA, whatever, you know, we know what that is. But yours is one of the first, what, two or three to bear that name. So, you know, where did that come from? Because it was was way before Boulter amongst other sort of help popularize it. But, it you know, it was kind of certainly my first experience of an XPA was your first release. Yeah.
00:15:16
Speaker
Yeah, look, at um like every good idea, we took someone else's idea from the At that point in time, there was two or three breweries in the US that were doing um Mexican food on site and doing beers of similar ilk, very dry, heavily hop forward, not that kind of heavy bitterness that you would have got from a lot of West Coast IPA styles of beer.
00:15:46
Speaker
And we just took the XPA and um I think it had been banted round in some of the more pointy and beer blogs and the like. And obviously another mutual friend had ah released a higher alcohol kind of strong pale ale version of an XPA. And as far as I'm aware, we were apart from um Shandy doing that with writers. We were the first brewery to release an XBA of this particular style.
Craft Beer Journeys: Scott and Sam's Experiences
00:16:20
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And did you have any idea that it become what it has become? I mean, because now there was an article not long ago in the States about how this is.
00:16:29
Speaker
the Australian style to an extent, you know, and it's so it's not really. Firestone Walker, I think we're championing it yeah for their summer release and sort of stuff and explaining what it was and things. It was, yeah, it's not surreal to read and see. It's interesting to think that, you know, the idea came from the States again and yet it's become, I guess, an Australian style like the Pacific Ale, you know, almost the next one yeah and in in rank. Well, I think that probably demonstrates that the Australian palette or market was looking for something like this that could relate to what the beers that we'd grown up with that was different. And I think it's, yeah, I think, I think it's great that most breweries in Australia now have at least had an XBA go through their tanks, if not having it one as part of their seasonal or or core range. And yeah, it speaks, speaks to the work that Boulter have done to obviously,
00:17:24
Speaker
bring it to the masses and really get ah distribute that stall distributed across the strike pretty heavily. I think what's interesting as well is it sort of ended up being, in most cases, what you understand, stood the XPA to be, because at the start, that some people were going, oh, it's just extra booze. yeah But you were like, it's extra malt. Extra crystal malt. Yeah. Whereas yours, you know, was that it was extra pale and extra hoppy and that sort of leaner style. And that seems to be what it's now become. Because there was, it was just like a guess it was a brand name to an extent at the start, wasn't it really? And then sort of moved around and sort of honed in on essentially what you started with.
00:18:00
Speaker
Yeah, and I think there's, um back in the crafty archives, there's a couple of articles that were written early days by external people who submitted. um In some ways, probably ripping apart XBA is either just a marketing kind of term versus what it actually means from it from a brewing point of view. And to kind of see that broken apart, but sit here and look at that can on the table and and um with the exception of a couple of hops moving in and out just through necessity, it's pretty much the same recipe that I was brewing in the garage 15 years ago. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, cool. That's great.
00:18:43
Speaker
Cool. And Sam, yeah a lot of people in the industry would know you from your current role in Bintani and also as the head brewer at Fixie's incubator, RIP. and yeah and Actually, just just very sadly on the way over, picking up one of their ah last wine barrel racks for a new little project we were putting on down at Bintani. So it lives on an engine in some ways, but right now, very, very great memories yeah with all of Fixie.
00:19:06
Speaker
ah That's great. um So how how did you get your start in the industry? ah Starting the industry just through ah a bit of a general interest in beer growing up more as a socialization event, friends and family and that sort of thing. And then it was probably through music and touring in music early on. um like to say it was in a you know indie rock and roll band just as they were becoming wildly unpopular. Was it good with another fellow brewer? Yeah, so it's been about five years or so playing a lot of music around Australia, but also we had some had some luck in and ended up recording a couple of albums in Los Angeles and touring around the States a few times between 2007 and 2011.
00:19:47
Speaker
um One of my ah good industry friends and and friends before that at the time is ah but Will Brown. If you're down at CBCo, Will, if you're listening, g'day. Four streets away. Just down the road. So yeah, we were spending a lot of time together in the in the States and I guess from that became sort of known as the adventurous drinkers. This was well before we had any of the brewing connection, but seeing the, I guess, the interest and enthusiasm and flavor differences in those sort of Formative years over there got me a quite interested on there on the beer side originally I wanted to get into marketing though So yeah, I thought it's good that you can get it. We're talking before right here Having a having a brand that might be the same but differentiating it through marketing like expo that sort of thing so
00:20:28
Speaker
We've got a marketing degree and then got a job at CUB many years ago with the hope of trying to get into marketing and brand management. It took all of probably a couple of months in speaking with a few of the brewers and things from there and connecting their passion to making the product. We thought I was sort of seeing in the States to go, well, I think the technical side and the brew production side was much more up my alley. so Yeah, Phil then, that's a rabbit hole, got into home brewing, moved home with my parents for years, saved up all my money, went to Germany, went to the VLB, and studied over there at the Green Brewing on the recommendation of John Silton, actually, the Bright Brewery. My now wife made the very unfortunate gift of giving me a day at the Bright Brewery. I've gone for a day also. I've gone for a day package, and then I've kept connection with John through that. Anyway, applied to a few breweries I wanted to work at, ended up at Stone and Wood, moved up there to try and chase the job and the brew that I wanted, or brews I wanted to work for, more than just sort of trying to find, you know. Was that still Byron Days or were they Mervar or anybody? It was within about six months of Mervar, so I think it was just after Nick Sandry had left, I sort of crossed ships in the night with him up there.
00:21:31
Speaker
I'm now a good friend and yeahre helped with a lot of that initial development expansion up there. I got to know Tom Delmon through his joining and informing the Fixation brand and got the nod to come set up the ah the Fixation incubator. so And how did that happen with Fixation? Did you sort of show an interest knowing there was this new project happening or you know, it's keen to but back to Melbourne, did they tap you on the shoulder and go, you're the guy? a little bit of both. So initially probably just through socialization and getting on with Tommy, which is you know very yeah almost impossible to do, sharing the stories of Melbourne and things. And also to to be honest at the time, ah my wife and traveling and that sort of part we've both been making, you know or she'd been sacrificing a great deal for me traveling around doing these things that I wanted to do. And even before we moved up, she said, look, I've been moving up for for a couple of years and then I'd be keen to move back and see what's sort of happening. so
00:22:21
Speaker
um Not that that was the complete draw up, but it was a way to sort of say, hey, you know, if anything comes up back in Melbourne, and you know, this and that and the other, and as soon as there was that little glint of it, and it was related to running a brewery and making my PA's, you couldn't stop me yelling and screaming about it. So I think, um yeah, putting yourself in the right right place and time and yeah, making your sort of a,
00:22:39
Speaker
yeah thoughts sort of known and that certainly helped and had just an absolute absolute love of year three and a half years with Tommy setting up and and running the fixation brewery tap room and and the crew all down there yeah well it it was kind of almost like there would have been almost like the Wild West sort frontier days I reckon for fixation then like the beer was obviously out there kicking goals like you know the main IPA but that was kind of like okay now we can really play with it and I know back in those days sort of you know free Take over there was a lot more freedom about you know, just label design all that kind of stuff. It must have been you know Yeah, it was it was it was great. and I think also sometimes in brewing it's helpful within that even though it was a wide range to be able to still focus on a particular sort of style and have some constraint to what you're working within and
00:23:21
Speaker
Let's you focus a little bit more on, you know, really dialing in used to be hops and malt and what you're sort of doing in process to try and make that as good as can be. Probably the only downside was that it wouldn't say unlimited, but it was encouraged to not worry about the cost of materials, and which is which is fine to a degree in small tap rooms with hops and yeast and malt. Primarily, you can make a lot of beers work.
00:23:40
Speaker
um Then when you look to scale them up, even in stone and wood days, going through the cogs and budgetary sort of, you know, understanding of it, having to sort of make changes later on down the fly. It's ah yeah definitely encourage brewers to keep their cogs in mind, even at the small scale. Yeah. um I see, and Scott, you also settled in it with your home now. Marty, how many of you have been there now? ah Just on five years. as Yeah, so he's locked it in just before COVID. Perfect. We can breeze over that, but... but the heavy point yeah Keep on moving.
Stability and Growth at Wolf of the Willows
00:24:10
Speaker
How's it all running now? Because you obviously, you had a long time brewing at a couple of places and then Mad Shepherd and now you've really been at your home for what almost half a history. Yeah. How's it feel? That's ah good because obviously machinery takes time to kind of get bedded in processes, little improvements. We were lucky enough to have
00:24:33
Speaker
got mates who were trades, so stainless welding, electricians. So we've got all the toys now that we've always kind of wanted, but been able to do it on a budget, which is pretty important. it' Yeah. So yeah. And we love, obviously we're literally what, probably a five minute walk from Bintani. Um, we love the area too. Like it's, um, Morty Alex very much welcomed us, which, um,
00:25:01
Speaker
It's got that community pocket that I think really yeah relates well to what craft beer in my mind actually is. Yeah. So for people outside of Melbourne, and these are very family centric suburb um near the coast as well. Like there's a lot sort of going for it, isn't there? Yeah. A lot lot of local community, like sporting clubs, a lot of creative arts, believe it or not, in um an area where you wouldn't expect it. And The local council, Kingston, has been really supportive of basically anything that we've wanted to do. So from a business point of view, as well as having obviously a product that greases the wheel of people being social, sure where yeah we've got a pretty good environment where we are.
00:25:50
Speaker
but so that's ah That's a pretty good plug, a brewer plugging a council. yeah dont hear that's thing i should have open concern that's that's right and no I haven't been ah paid to do that much. No, they genuinely and like even um to say it like Southeast water, which are our water board. um Yeah, we recently upgraded all our tradeway system and they actually engaged with us to fully design and create something that now that uses best practice for businesses of ours. It's actually got in there and a report for FY 23. That's great. And in in terms of how you sort of managed that transition, because obviously you started off, was it Cavalier you were making the first videos? Cavalier, yep. Then you had some and you know there some tanks and what was it, ownership at Bad Shepherd? Yep.
00:26:39
Speaker
And then but we were you brewing beers elsewhere at the same time as that? And then suddenly, you know, youre not so, you've got your own place and no need to manage elsewhere in terms of, I guess, keeping recipes consistent, keeping the business ticking over.
Sam's Role and Hop Farm Project
00:26:51
Speaker
Yeah, look, the going from different brew houses, just even different environments always throws challenges. But the, I suppose the good part is that Most brewers, as Sam will testify, are very transparent and open about sharing information. So um the being at Mordialik now and being having ah four and a half years of actually brewing there, the um the consistency of beers is better than it's ever been. And I just will give a throw out to Josh Kendall, who obviously
00:27:29
Speaker
moves in similar circles, our head brewer and um Dylan and Zali who are brew staff, I'd love to. I'd say the main pride I get is opening it going, well, they've done a better job yeah than i than I can. So yeah that that's a good part about being where we are as well. yeah Cool.
00:27:51
Speaker
And Sam, um in terms of your day-to-day at Bintani, what's that look like? Yeah, it's it's it's pretty ah ah diverse and and varied, I'd say, a lot of the time. um Do you still get to brew at all, like, testing in the new ingredients? I've only been... I've only been brewing all the stuff. I think I'm only sitting on two brews this year, so maybe, maybe not. yeah I did did put in a little tiny 70 litre brew kit.
00:28:16
Speaker
at the start down there, but it's still there. it's still got dust yeah oh know It's still got my wet hot beer from ah April. can it there So not completely, but yeah, getting a little bit less use as um different sort of timing and things take up a few more different de different parts of the day. um Yeah, the Bintani sold, I guess, a bit of a stranger and I didn't apply for the job there. I was looking at early or mid 2021, maybe to get out and set up my own brewery and that sort of thing.
00:28:44
Speaker
and then Phil, who I thought was just one of the sales reps, called up. i didn't know I didn't know at the time, even though I was was buying materials through um sort of a good supplier, take a call and and sort of stuff. And he said, oh, would you put it off for a few months and maybe say, you know, if there's, you know, give us a hand and that sort of thing. So I thought that was a good opportunity at the time. And I'm glad I had just given what it sort of transpired over even that initial six month period in the industry to be focusing a little bit more yeah on the materials and supply side. so Or also to split half and half maybe on paper between a sort of technical sales and support role and a sales role. um So in in a sales sort of capacity, I'm dealing mainly with the sort of larger accounts within Bintani. um Some independence, I'm not independent, but a bit of a mix between some yeah contract breweries and
00:29:33
Speaker
and distilleries and larger sort of accounts to help with generally more pricing supply forecasting sort of bits and pieces, the the boring nuts and bolts, but the important things at that scale that keep breweries and distilleries running and being able to sort of work on what they want to do. And the other side is answering any question from any brewery around Australia at any time of the day or night. So it's been a great, great part to try and understand out the Bintani products a little bit more, find out a little bit more around the industry.
00:30:00
Speaker
And that's helped really expand my sort of um viewpoint of the of the Australian brewing industry, which has been pretty great. so ye And yet you haven't started your own brewery, at least yet, but you do have your own hop farm.
00:30:11
Speaker
Yeah, i I'm slowly coming to take take over the over the hot world. Yeah, my parents are ah Hereford beef cattle farmers in in northeast Victoria, a place called Midamitta. There's a brewery up there now with, um yeah, Tim and Alex, and Jan and the crew. It's an amazing brewery if you're up in the northeast well worth checking out. but My family um backgrounds from up that way. And since the time I moved down for fixation, we're saying I've got a couple of hundred acres, which is my grandma's property. She grew up on on beautiful um ah sort of alluvial river plains on the outfeed of the Dartmouth dam. So basically an unlimited water source, great soil and great sort of opportunity to put some stuff in.
00:30:52
Speaker
I've been putting it off since I moved down in 2018 back back down for fixation and thought last year, you know, stuff that I've got to put some in. So more so to learn about materials and ingredients, but potentially to go into a business at some point, you've got to start somewhere. And this is an opportunity just to put some plant in the ground, spend some time with my parents, try and learn around what it takes to construct a little hop yard and also what goes into it on the raw materials supply side. So I've got, yeah, 50 little bonds in last year. Four of the varieties all hit five meters. I've got a full commercial hike, which was pretty good on on first year sort of stuff and been um all just public varieties just to sort of say, yeah, what's up, what's going on with that? But I'm actually headed up this weekend to tidy up again and yeah get the irrigation back up going and that sort of thing. so
00:31:36
Speaker
Yeah, lucky enough to be heading to the States for Bintani top selection the week after, so trying to find out as much as I can. Yeah, but you'll come back with some strata risings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When no one's looking, just having stuff in your socks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'd love to be able to, but now really, really just just sort of um initially a passion project in.
00:31:53
Speaker
Yeah again for any any any brewers or people the more you can learn about your materials and ingredients and there's so much variety around Australia now in Hobson Malt primarily and and yeast as well that um yeah it's a great great thing to be able to do.
Innovative Brewing with Terpenes
00:32:04
Speaker
Yeah I was going before we started the break um and then come back have a chat about terpenes. I've had the impression over the years been a number of leases from pretty early on with Wolf the Willows using newer yeast strains or, you know, and make sort of newer products, the market experimental products. Is that something that was always a a deliberate sort of part of your interest in brewing? Because it does seem there's been, you know, there was an interest in West Coast light pills a few years ago, or just play even brewed IPA. those years ago Like you you do seem to always be at the forefront of some of those new styles, XPA as well. Well, Sam started a product like
00:32:40
Speaker
My parents' farm in Nanagan, we still have, well, they're pretty much wild, but hops growing from the early days. And that's probably just coming from wanting to get my hands in the soil and kind of understand where that little palette comes from. And that probably stems into some of the ingredients that we've tried to use in the beers and
00:33:02
Speaker
I think it's like a chef, like if you're just punching out chicken parmours day in, day out, like you probably don't have the love of it the way you used to. But if you can give someone a new ingredient, then it kind of revitalizes their love for it. And a lot of what we've tried to do with the new products or raw ingredients that we're using is collaborate with other producers who either are using them or are using them in a different way, like other distillers or Um, and this, you know, the terpenes, and we'll, we'll talk about that after the break where that kind of came from initially, but, um, I get bored easily. So having new raw materials is always a way to kind of keep, uh, that interest up. But also I think the craft beer consumer is, let's face it, always looking for something that kind of tweaks interest. So if it can be done in a genuine way of actually giving them something different cognitively, but also on the,
00:34:02
Speaker
sensory wise around the palette, then why not? Yeah. Fantastic. Well, we'll skip to a break and see you
Sydney Beer Week Promotion
00:34:09
Speaker
afterwards. Cheers guys.
00:34:16
Speaker
and we'll be right back. Hey listeners, here's some great news because Sydney's biggest and best celebration of craft beer is back. That's right, it's Sydney Beer Week and it's coming at you live from the 18th to the 25th of October. Good beer venues all across the city will be hosting some of the most insanely fun events you'll ever attend, some for a small ticket price and loads of them for free.
00:34:39
Speaker
Check out the Beer and Curry Feast with Fox Friday and Don't Tell Arnie. Or check your skills at Pints, Pockets and Precision with Black Flag at The Rose. Start your tiny little engines at the Reckless Slot Car Challenge at Bitter Few. Or get Boot Scootin' at the Young Henry's Hoe Down at Jolene's.
00:34:57
Speaker
Plus many more outstanding events to choose from. Mark your calendars and round up your mates for Sydney Beer Week, 18th to the 25th of October. Book now at sydneybeerweek dot.com.au. And now back to the podcast.
00:35:19
Speaker
Welcome back to the Crafty Pint podcast. Sam, terpenes, what are they and can you explain them to me? Like I'm five, but also include cannabis in it. So maybe not like I'm five. They're just their hydrocarbons that are C5H8N where N is greater than or equal to two. Next question. Great. Fantastic. So much clearer.
00:35:42
Speaker
No, but I think terpenes, having it look up, encompass a huge range of made like aroma molecules um as hydrocarbons that form a lot of the aroma from a lot of things in nature. so So plants, herbs, spices, hops, cannabis, all those sort of things, when you're getting your aroma, um sensory guidance from that is often directed by terpenes as a major component of that.
00:36:09
Speaker
um There's terpenoids that can change away from that a little bit that have an oxygen component in them are also referred to as terpenes. And then within this essential oil space, where we think of, you know, flavors and aromas as essential oils that will also encompass things like thiols and other bits and pieces as well so.
00:36:25
Speaker
Terpenes are the larger group of aroma compounds, primarily from botanical ah fruit or vegetable or herb and spice sources. It's become a bit of ah a buzzword in some ways though, so I think while hops have and do and always have had terpenes, it's a major component of aroma.
00:36:42
Speaker
we're now sort of highlighting terpenes in a different way and sourcing both from hops and other non-hop sources. Yeah and in terms of abstracts with Bintani working with to bring in like yeah like what's that and and how's it sort of used in a borough's arsenal? Yeah so abstracts and abstracts hops is an interesting sort of new line that we've recently started with and Scott's been playing around with for some time now uh company that started from another variation called abstracts tech which is involved in extraction of cannabis products and that sort of part so a lot of expertise in that cannabis space but i've looked to try and take some of that terpene knowledge from another source being cannabis that's very terpene heavy for
00:37:22
Speaker
Flavors, aromas, particularly in the United States around, uh, vapes, uh, and also just, uh, flavors for, uh, cosmetics, food uses, different things in that sort of space, but transitioning into another business area, um, which has been the hop area.
00:37:38
Speaker
ah So using some of that same technology that they've developed have looked to extract hops both as a complete terpene extraction source from hops, but then also some other ranges that can either mimic hop flavours or other flavours or fruit flavours with the terpene profiles. That's where we see a little bit of some of this cannabis crossover in one of their products called brew gas, which imitates the flavours of of cannabis strains.
00:38:01
Speaker
but does so without actually having in any cannabis ingredients in it whatsoever and is not derived from any cannabis product. So while there's some similarities it's sort of like using the ingredients that we know exist within the aroma profiles of the these compounds but constructing it from other sources. Yeah and that's why they have these names of sort of popular cannabis strains which are probably a bit more familiar to Americans where largely cannabis is legal. or Correct. Yeah. And also interestingly, we think that i even have some of the the the the brand and trademark sign off of those names from the original developers and growers that they are happy that those profiles are as close to um the aromatics of those strains from the, from the terpene profile, not from any of the cannabis profile, but that they're basically certified to be that is that sort of aroma profile, but derived from non cannabis sources, which is pretty crazy. And just to clarify, so terpenes have all that always been in hops. What aromas you're getting from the hop addition to a beer could be Mercy. yeah it that There'll be terpenes in there, but this is almost like is is almost like advanced hop products where you're trying to, you know, I guess enhance or like really intensify one particular
00:39:09
Speaker
element of the, you know, as the plant or the... Yeah, so Mersene's a good example as, you know, the primary sort of primary terpene in hops that constitutes their large proportion of the hop oils. If you want to have a good chat or read around it, Jim Solberg from IndieHops actually goes on a bit of a rant around it of the available Mersene because similar to IVUs, there's a threshold above which you can say. So even if you're buying hops with a high oil content,
00:39:36
Speaker
you'll generally have a high amount of mercene which sort of maxes out at a certain level. Even when I was studying 10 years ago, I was sort of, so there's around 200 flavor active compounds within hops. Now that sought to be significantly more within the abstracts of range, they've pinpointed about 500 or so and a lot of their products are sort of classifying their top 20 sort of terpene ah molecules and can use them almost like an EQ in some sort of ways to focus in on specific sort of flavours from either specific but extraction from the hops or imitating and and blending flavours within that in that range. So when did you first come across in Scott because you would be one of the very first breweries I guess to put specific terpenes especially I guess cannabis derived terpenes
00:40:21
Speaker
um from catnabis to us So candidates kind of i cannabis cannabis esque. Um, so terpenes within beers. I remember, I think it was the Louis beer. Um, when I, I cracked a can of that, it was like, this is nuts. And I like, you need to go and find a cannabis beer. Cause it is so, it's so distinctly like that sort of aroma. Yeah. Yeah. I think that answer your question that originally came from, um,
00:40:49
Speaker
A couple of the contacts from the Ski Bum Days now actually run um a company called Day Trip in California, and that primarily started through doing cannabis-related products, so gummies and the like.
00:41:07
Speaker
and seeing what they were doing. And then the, I suppose, focus on terpenes as part of that, rather than just the psychoactive side of what cannabis has and then linking it back to, I love to cook. So herbs have, um, a lot of your culinary herbs have a saturated and different types of terpenes. And then obviously looking at, uh, hops and those particular flavours which to me is probably the reason a lot of people potentially get into craft beer because hops is such a easily identifiable part of craft beer and that just that link and going with will rather than just having one particular breed of hops that has a different variety of terpenes in them initially we started with individual terpenes and isolating those to work out
00:42:05
Speaker
what flavor profile they could actually deliver in their raw state but within different types of beers as well. Cause a lot of the, I suppose blends that abstract obviously offer a combination of different terpenes used to mimic cannabis strains. Whereas we tried to understand them individually first and basically see whether they actually added any value yeah sensory value to the bees. Yeah. Cause I think that's, um, important to get across maybe for people who haven't tried them. Like I remember trying pineapple express, which was your first one. I was like, Oh, this is an interesting Cali IPA. I quite enjoying this. And then when King Louie came out, I was like, I really get this now because it tastes like a different dimension. These are kind of hop like flavors, but I see what it's adding that is actually distinct.
00:42:59
Speaker
And I think that's where, again, in a shout out to the brew crew, but particularly Josh, um taking the time to like, I kind of relate it to you can buy a ah cake mix from the supermarket, right? Now, most people can bake a cake from that, but then actually doing it from the raw individual ingredients and understanding where you tweak one thing or a like and in combination.
00:43:25
Speaker
how you actually make the outcome greater than its sum of its parts. And King Louie was a great example of that. We're learning from commercializing the Pineapple Express as ah as a beer and as a product and then actually going into the next beers and the Gelato Sour, which was probably my favorite to blend the earthiness of some of the cannabis, am mix mimicking some of the cannabis terpenes, but also having sour, you wouldn't put normally put earthy hobs in a sour, but it worked. Yeah. And that, yeah, I think that was a great example of,
00:44:07
Speaker
blending two genre or a number of genres that hadn't been put in together before. I think it's a it's a good just space to have focus ah at the moment where hops over the last 10 or 15 years have had a number of different bridles a lot in stone fruit citrus sort of things we're seeing time and time again these flavors from hops that have been developed through that sort of program.
00:44:28
Speaker
Very interested in hot flavors, they share so much similarity with cannabis derived aromas in a number of different ways that it's just extending that toolkit out further and really expanding sort of thought around what different hot flavors can be and what beer flavors can be. and I think for for anyone at the moment, it's just a great tool to better expand their repertoire of flavors in aroma.
Advanced Hop Products and Brewing Methods
00:44:48
Speaker
um Also at the same time be it smaller in a tap room to potentially dose up some beers over a weekend and just try and see some feedback from customers around what variables and flavors they sort of like because being a downstream product they're generally at the very sort of late stage for a product differentiation point or that sort of thing. So you could do that you can what dose it keg or even you know some did is that means that how you do your trials potentially that rather than having You don't have to brew separate batches. It's like he's a small keg of this and just see how it turns out. Exactly what Sam mentioned at the taproom and just little 20, 30 liters and almost watching people's actions. Starting in the office with binoculars. Yeah, now we got the screen. Two way mirror behind the bar. Yeah. And I think that's that. that
00:45:39
Speaker
that type of experimentation. It's kind of goes back to the Berlinerweiss kind of, you know, the gin brew, the base beer, and then add different flavourings to it on the spot. And and this is probably something that we're pretty interested in, is that the shelf stability of terpenes and looking at um
00:46:00
Speaker
We all know that's any cost saving that can be achieved within any industry at the moment. Brewing, so if we can use less a vegetable matter in dry hopping, for example, so we're getting less wastage over.
00:46:14
Speaker
the cycle of a beer which with terpenes we can then if we get an extra three four percent yield out of that tank then it all helps contribute to the bottom line. And do you have some of those releases still that you yeah and how are they? and Please tell me King Louie it tastes like it the day it was released. I'm afraid I haven't actually checked the logs but the brew crew every Friday like we do a most good breweries will be doing four stage testing and age testing with a backlog of the catalog of beers we have. So um yeah, actually, let me get back to you. But that's where I think there could be great benefits from the commercially available
00:46:58
Speaker
brewing products related to turpines. When you say it's later, due how later are we talking? Because that sort of makes sense to me. There was a recent, um the whole gate, Noodle Doof, Colab, Dank, Dank AF, Dank Spark, West Coast IPA, and I was pouring one, had a taste to write about in the kitchen a few weeks ago, and like talking something that came into the house, pouring, as soon as it hit the glass, I was like, what the hell's going on there? And I was like, that has to have,
00:47:25
Speaker
um to you know cannabis terpenes in there but there's nothing on the can and so i'll maybe just i haven't had a beer in a few days is my palate or whatever so try on the following day i like texted chris and alex i'm like please tell me you and they were like oh it is but it was a last-minute decision so the beer was done the cans were already printed and then it was like oh let's just give this a go because for a bit of a laugh whatever and it was so distinct and what was interesting as well is that it's very distinct at the start and then as you sort of go through the beer it's almost like that almost like sinks into it and the rest the yeah other hop characters I guess the you know genuine hop characters or flavors come through but um I mean how late does it actually go in because you know it must have been very late in the process for them if they didn didn't even put it on the label so
00:48:07
Speaker
do you know whether I used your, the abstracts? It was blackberry kush here, or blackberry kush. Yeah, I'm not sure we're using that again, but but generally- In your case, like how late can you, how late does it go into the process? The abstracts are a liquid, whereas we've used powder. Okay.
00:48:23
Speaker
so that horses for courses, depending on the and the way the terpene is actually packaged and presented. So generally for an abstract product would be um basically into finished beer, pre-carbonation as late down the process ah yeah as can be yeah within its soak. Yeah, bright beer tanks sort of mixed together with, yeah, rousing with CO2 when you're in carbonation and left to settle, or left to homogenise for a little bit of time, I should say, and then package up. These are good point you raise ah a little bit around labelling and things as well. So we've got some terpenes in this range that are basically, you know, terpenes extracted from hops and they can be labelled as hops in Australian guidelines.
00:49:06
Speaker
The other products are all naturally dry botanicals, so generally should be labelled as natural flavours. I just wanted to be aware of for labelling, that sort of thing. I want to make sure people are doing the right thing. So we've sort of talked about a lot about the sort of cannabis-like terpenes and products, but you were saying before there's other styles as well, as you know, the mimicking fruits. i What's there what to sort the range of options out there?
00:49:28
Speaker
Yeah, so at the moment there's sort of three ranges that are terpene blends for different applications. Bruegas is a cannabis style profile series. Another really interesting one is called Skyfarm, which is a fruit based series. We've had some really positive of initial feedback from that in flavors like passion fruit, mango, pineapple, those sort of top notes. ah Really punchy, derived from those fruits, but also other botanicals to really say boost those profiles more so. Interestingly off that from a couple of breweries that have tried that out have used it and ones actually put that into their core range after an initial trial. It works a lot with fruit that was sort of surprising to us but a bit of a validation of you know their sort of thoughts around the how those profiles present in beer and the other line is called omni profiles which is a ah blend of terpenes to replicate hop varieties at a lot level so you're not buying their
00:50:23
Speaker
essential oils in the terpenes derived from hops, but a mix that basically matches those essentially at a one-to-one level or as close as it's possible to get. And maybe Sky Farm is going to go give CUB and Endeavor Group a chance to bring fruity beer back again for some success.
00:50:39
Speaker
um Now, we did ah an article or not long ago, looking focused on new hop products, advanced products. We start spoke to you, I guess, to get some clarity around some of the stuff, Sam. In the brooms we spoke to you for the article, Nick at One Drop and Mark at Working Title, we're talking about not just terpenes, but pretty much any of these products, whether it's Phantasm or you know cryo-hops and hop oils or whatever, being something that you had to so use within context of other you know I guess almost natural hot products as well um and certainly there's Rocky Ridge actually released the 14th edition of their Rock Juice Imperial IPA recently and they put out two cans, exactly the same beer, exactly the same hop varieties, one was all pellets, one was all advanced hop products, very brave of them because the one that's purely advanced hop products
00:51:25
Speaker
wasn't overly drinkable, but the idea was to really highlight the you know the difference in how then you try blending them together and see what they would do. And is that what you found as well, whether it's terpenes or whether it is hop oils, that you you need to use them within context of, I guess, more traditional ingredients? Or can you blend them in ways that sort of work without even having to have any pellets or sort of more traditional hop products in there? Our experience has been having a foundation of hops at least in the whirlpool. So the we did a beer for gabs called the Turpanator and that was pure and so whirlpool hops but then effectively a dry turpanine. No dry hop.
00:52:13
Speaker
and that actually delivered better than I thought it would. And it's actually, that is one of the beers that I know has remained shelf stable because I've still got some in my fridge. And yeah, just quite enjoyable, like Woomers Gap. So that's four, nearly four and a half months ago since we brewed it.
00:52:36
Speaker
And I would say the beer of that style would now starting to show a little bit of age on it if it was just pure hops and still beautiful, quite bright. So I would say yes, using a foundation of the kind of original brewing techniques, but then enhanced oil. Sam mentioned for the top notes to really give it that kind of kick or punch. And what is it you think you potentially lose or need to retain with other means, you know, by using oils or, you know, these extracts? What is, you know, potentially, li is it texture? Is it just something more earthy or natural, you know? I would say mouthfeel has a lot to do with it. I sketched of
00:53:21
Speaker
the flavor profiles because of mouthfeel. So with the Terpene mix that we have used, you're not actually getting the oil profiles. So for example, head retention is something that we've had to look at and use other extracts in order to maintain it. Whereas obviously with moderate to heavy hopping views,
00:53:48
Speaker
keep their heads quite well. Tipping over a certain threshold at the the top end of the scale can be an issue, but so keeping that in balance and I suppose it always comes back to how thinking about how you cook with herbs as well and that if you're just using say basil oil versus fresh basil, there is going to be a difference that can work better in combination.
Future of Terpenes in Brewing
00:54:12
Speaker
And Sam, are there any pieces that you've tried, whether here or on your travels overseas, so and that you feel are going to use Terpedance to their best? Yeah, I actually you haven't had too many views from, with with the products recently, it's very, very new on to market. It's sold from ah a good a good name last week. I had the Pineapple Express from Bad Shepherd, which was a bit of a, yeah, an homage, but homage beer in some ways to some of the initial Platform Express beers. I thought that was lovely. um And maybe I'll be changed by next week. I'm off to Caiji this afternoon to try their beer called Bongwater. Oh yeah, I bought it. I've been to go on the hop. It does what it says on the team, I guess. It's quite a remarkable beer, that. um Yeah, good.
00:55:03
Speaker
oh And before we wrap up, where do you see sort of terpenes and I guess some of these more innovative advanced hot products and even I guess other, you know, advanced products that have been brought to the market by producers all around the world. Where do you see them sort of fitting into beer, especially as I guess at the minute there's almost been a bit of a, not blowback, but sort of return to people like making Walagas or there's even been a comeback for like English style beers recently. So where do you think, you know, that they'll end up within the Australian beer landscape?
00:55:32
Speaker
I think on the supply side, regardless of who it's coming from, will continue to be quite a push on advanced products over the next year to a few years. I'm also driven from the supply side of the huge oversupplyer pops globally.
00:55:47
Speaker
So there's a lot of focus on trying to extract value from those crop and plant materials to save it being thrown out or wasted in that sort of way. I think that's driven a lot of development and interest in these products that are good products in their own right but have been sort of channeled through these wider challenges across the supply are chain. Well I guess that'd be one of the things up with LSE putting their CO2 extraction plant in um the high country essentially taking hops that are rather going to just age from elsewhere, turning them into extract and then giving them stability. So there's like a sustainable side to it as well, I guess. Yeah. And that's that's similar even with these, with the terpenes sort of products, a lot of them design that you can take a hop lot that you've got that might be old, not in as good shape, but extract the valuable terpenes that are still in there, extract the good compounds that you're looking for out and continue to make use out of of those products.
00:56:35
Speaker
I think where there's efficiency focus, there'll be a continued sort of interest. So that the pricing efficiency sort of balance will need to be there. I think it is in these lines. I don't think it's the sort of thing that will change the world and revolutionise Baroque, but all those sort of avenues where you can have, you know, that five, 10% reduction in costs or increase in yield becomes increasingly important year on year. so I'm sure they'll continue in that sort of space. And people are just interested with, yeah, yeah different different terms. I think we're talking earlier around the marketing sort of naming impact. In some ways, if it can drive someone to to try a beer or think about a beer in a different way, it has some other applications outside of the functional benefit that people go, oh, it's a terpene beer or a like, you know, this sort of series or that sort of series as a way to talk and and invigorate that a bit.
00:57:22
Speaker
I hope it doesn't become one where it sort of probably becomes a parody of itself. It continues to throw out names and terminology and things that, yeah like your article pointed out the other week, you know can be confusing and overbearing. But it is ah it is an option that's there associated with these sort of event products that's interesting. And in terms of this abstract, which is is very new to Australia, in terms of broad demand, it's is it pretty high because it feels like already I'm seeing beers come out pretty quickly. So obviously there was some brewers very ready to go. Yeah, I think it was an interesting product to launch into market and there's definitely been some great demand more than we'd sort of expected off the bat as a company that went very hard initially on samples and talking about so we're invested in the actually getting products out to as many as many people as possible. I think we probably had around 150 or 200 boxed sample kits of the varieties to be able to provide and try it to sort of seed and get people hands-on to think about it. Based on the ah performance of those that are sensory or dosing into keg sort of level that's driven a lot of initial interest and that combined with a fair and competitive pricing offers to
00:58:33
Speaker
thought for brewers to have a think about where it's sort of used so yeah we're not surprised we can ah facilitate you know having stock in and we've got a yeah more orders already than we sort of thought we had which is which is good. Scotty where do you think it's it's all heading? Yeah with it more for the willows like because it's is is now a key ingredient a key factor in your future planning for beers?
Podcast Wrap-Up and Promotions
00:58:55
Speaker
If it delivers a better product than without it. Okay so an unashamed plug for our 10 year anniversary on the XBA. Yes, you're gonna dose it.
00:59:10
Speaker
Different, slightly different beer base, but that will be, in our view, a good example where the average person who enjoys a beer can sit what is the traditional XBA, our traditional XBA, against a comparative one with terpenes and actually make a judgment for their personal palate and whether that's something that they would enjoy more. And so, as Sam put it, from a brewery point of view,
00:59:41
Speaker
has cost efficiency and it provides better value and a better sensory experience for the punter, then I think they'll continue to become more prevalent in the market. Yeah, the thing I always go back to is when I was at CBC last year and seeing that line for abstracts just never quietened down. I was like, okay, this is this is there's so much interest here. this is This is definitely going somewhere. I look forward to trying. but And I think also, happy birthday for a few weeks' time. When is the actual 10th anniversary?
01:00:10
Speaker
It is cup weekend. Cup weekend. So happy 10th birthday in advance. Thank you. Thanks for coming along. This has been actually very useful for us as well to understand these products and what's happening there better. Yeah, thanks for coming along. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks very much. Cheers. Cheers, guys.
01:00:34
Speaker
The Crafty Pint Podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, craftypint.com and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our socials.
01:00:48
Speaker
We wouldn't be able to produce the podcast or the website, events, or festivals we run without the support of the beer industry, whether that's suppliers, bars, breweries, or bottle shops. If you'd like to support the show or partner with The Crafty Pine in other ways, please reach out to Craig via the details in the show notes. And if you're a beer lover who'd like to support what we do, you can join our exclusive club for beer lovers, The Crafty Cabal. Visit craftycabal.com for more. And until next time, drink good beer.