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Beyond the Stigma: DBT and the Power of Acceptance with Mariah Covington
33 Plays6 months ago
In this episode of the Sol Well Podcast, host Autumn Colon sits down with licensed mental health professional Mariah Covington to discuss the understanding of DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy) and its effectiveness in treating various mental health conditions. Mariah shares her personal journey and experiences working with at-risk youth, emphasizing the significance of trauma-informed care and the power of acceptance.
Key Takeaways:
- DBT's Effectiveness: Learn about the research-backed benefits of DBT for conditions like borderline personality disorder, anxiety, depression, and PTSD.
- The Importance of Acceptance: Understand the concept of radical acceptance and how it can help individuals cope with challenges and emotions.
- Overcoming Stigma: Explore the stigma surrounding mental health and DBT, and how to break down barriers to accessing treatment.
- The Role of Therapists: Discover the crucial role of therapists in providing compassionate and effective DBT treatment.
Connect with Mariah Covington:
Share your experiences and connect with other parents on our social media channels. Let's build a supportive community together!
By tuning in, you're taking a step towards prioritizing your mental health and creating a brighter future for your family.
Don't forget to subscribe to Sol Well for more inspiring stories and practical advice!
Want to be a guest on the pod? Send us an email to podcast@solwell.co
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Transcript
Introduction to Soul Well Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Soul Well Podcast, where moms of color find strength and community in the mental health space. Each week, we ignite inspiration as we set our intentions with affirmations and dive deep into honest conversations with fellow moms and mental health experts. We're here to hold space for you, to shatter stigmas and elevate the voices of moms of color. We'll fight for policy change, empower you with mindful resources, and most importantly remind you that you're never alone on this journey. It takes a village to raise a mother. Now let's meet at the well.
00:00:42
Speaker
Hey, mamas. Welcome back to the Sew Well podcast. I'm your host, Autumn Pallone.
Meet Mariah Cobington: Counselor and DBT Advocate
00:00:46
Speaker
And as always, I am so excited for today's episode. Today we are meeting with a licensed professional counselor, Mariah Cobington. She's actually going to be talking about her form of treatment, which is DBT.
00:01:03
Speaker
So I know a lot of us aren't fully aware of every type of treatment that is out there. And so we hope on this podcast to educate you on what is out there and what is available. And in this episode, that is exactly what we do. We learn about what DBT is, how it has helped Mariah's clients and how she practices this, how she um uses this to work with her clients, and how you can incorporate some of these skills in your everyday life. So a little bit about our guests, Mariah Covington is a licensed mental health professional. She specializes in DBT for adolescence. She earned her degrees from Howard University and the Chicago School of Professional Psychology. And in her career, she has worked at various
00:01:50
Speaker
residential treatment facilities, and schools helping young people deal with trauma, mood disorders, and a number of other different challenges. And like I said at the start of this episode, I am excited for y'all to really dig into this topic. In her free time, Mariah enjoys cooking, traveling, exercising, and spending time with her family.
00:02:11
Speaker
And so yeah, let's jump right into today's episode. But before we do that, I want to ground us in an affirmation for this episode. um So just a little personal story right now. I'm currently just feeling a little bit all over the place with all the things that I have going on. I have the podcast and my business and my career.
00:02:34
Speaker
and motherhood and wifehood and all the things. And so whenever I'm actually sitting to record this podcast, this moment at the beginning of the episode where I ground us in an affirmation truly does help me to slow down and think about what I'm saying, put the energy and effort into into the episode and also into myself. And so I hope that these affirmations inspire you as much as they inspire me.
Affirmations and Personal Peace
00:03:02
Speaker
And today's affirmation is states, I know and understand that I must take full responsibility for my peace. And I'm going to repeat that. I know and understand that I must take full responsibility for my peace.
00:03:23
Speaker
And you know, the universe, God, and all the entities out there, whatever you believe, I believe that it conspires to give us exactly what we need in the moments that we needed. And so to randomly pull this card, feeling what I feel, right which is a lot of chaos right now, I'm reminded that I am the master of my own fate and I am the master and responsibility for my own peace.
00:03:49
Speaker
And so I hope that this is something that you remember for yourself today and every day after. And with that, let's jump into today's episode. Today, I'm here with my guest, Mariah Covington. Welcome, welcome, welcome. I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me. Yes. Um, uh, where are you based out of? I'm in DC. Okay. DC. I have some friends in DC. like Um,
00:04:16
Speaker
not mere Like, oh, she's like, actually in the Capitol. Like, that's where that... We know, yes. Okay, cool. I love it. um I'm here in Georgia, and the weather is like, perfectly beautiful fall, and I'm excited for the cozy weather to start, so... Mm, nice. It is good, except for today here, so... Hot.
00:04:42
Speaker
All
Mariah's Journey in Mental Health and DBT
00:04:43
Speaker
right. Well, I just, we always like to start our podcast, just kind of introducing our guests and letting them share a bit about their journey, their background, like your experiences, any experiences with mental health and anything that you would love to share with our guests to kind of get, let them get to know you.
00:05:01
Speaker
Sure. So I'm originally from New City. I attended the illustrious Howard University for undergrad. And then after undergrad, I took about two years off and then went to graduate school. I wanted to go to John Jay, didn't get in. That's a separate conversation. So going to Chicago School of Professional Psychology,
00:05:27
Speaker
ah for my graduate degree. um I actually did it in forensics, reentry and sanction center in BC, in domestic violence. um And then once I got out, um and at that time, I actually started doing research outside of my graduate program um in DBT.
00:05:50
Speaker
before residential in Baltimore, in Baltimore. And then um I graduated, I started working there part time, and then I was looking at my checks and I was like, I was a bartender the entire time. I bartended through graduate school, undergrad, all that. I just stopped like during the, pin after the like the pandemic basically stopped.
00:06:16
Speaker
um So I was making more money bartending, I'll be honest with you. And then I would go to my job and then go bartend. And then I was like, okay, this is not working. So I left the field altogether. I worked at a consulting firm for a bit. um And then I you know started doing testing in the schools. I was work i was bartending one night.
00:06:35
Speaker
And I was talking to this woman and she was like, oh, um you're a mental health counselor. I'm like, yeah, you know, just like, I mean i was cool. I i didn' wasn't looking up for nothing. She was like, oh, I'm hoping, you know, my school, um, I sent in your resume. I'm like, I'm really being myself. So I'm like, they're not hiring me, but I'm gonna go ahead and send it anyway. You know what I mean? Like, I will not send it. So I'm like,
00:07:01
Speaker
I go to the school. I go to the interview. The interview was very informal. ah She was the principal. oh So I, you know, i'm um' I'm meeting with someone else that was going to be my my manager. And she goes, Oh, we're doing DBT in the school. And it just It just aligned. And I just was like, cause a lot of people don't do that. Yeah. I mean, I've never heard of that at all. Most people haven't. That's why I'm here. And so it ended up, you know, and it was a school for at-risk youth, a boarding school, 100% school, 100% African-American, 70% boys. Different population than what you're looking at with but like overall DBT.
00:07:47
Speaker
So yeah I meet her, the person that trains us, um um you know, I work at the school, I implement, and then um I then leave that job, go to private practice, and I still work, you know, the person that trained us, I train with her um doing DBT in schools all over the country via my laptop, which is really nice. um And then I, you know, like I do private practice, the adults,
00:08:13
Speaker
Atlas is like 18, 19 my favorite age groups. And um I do dbt and I do group. And then I'm on the board for the, is it dbt community conference? We have a conference every year. So.
00:08:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I do. That's so cool. I love that. First of all, that's so great. and My mind is like, oh, I have so many different questions than the ones I said to you in my outline. But it's I love it.
Understanding DBT: A Therapeutic Approach
00:08:40
Speaker
i love i've actually you know I have two kids. My son's 13 and my daughter is 10. And you know they have school counselors in the school. And to hear that This is something that's being implemented in a school setting, excites me as someone who is an like advocate of mental health counseling for children and adults, right? um Just across.
00:09:02
Speaker
you know the the whole diaspora of people as well. like I think everybody should go to therapy at least once. I love that this is something that you're doing in schools. You mentioned DBT, I know what that is, um but and you know what that is, but can you go a little bit into detail? um like What is DBT? like What does that stand for? um And how you use it in a therapeutic approach? Sure, sure. So DBT,
00:09:31
Speaker
is under CBC. Most people have heard of CBC before. So, CBC is dialectical behavior therapy. And that is, the the dialectics is the word that people kind of get your up tripped up on. It's acceptance and change.
00:09:47
Speaker
it's except That's what dialectic behavior is. Some things we accept about ourselves and some things we change it by ourselves, right? And dialectics really means it's how two things that are opposite can both be true, right? And the way I teach this to the youngest is I love my sibling and they get on my nerves. Mm-hmm, that's a fact.
00:10:08
Speaker
I love my husband and he gets on my nerves, right? There you go. things that You see dialectics everywhere, right? I want to be in shape and I still like to eat cupcakes. Two things can be true at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. tension and right And we want to kind of walk the middle path. That's what we mean about dialectics.
00:10:29
Speaker
Yeah, what um drew drew you into that specific um field, right? Because you could do so many different things in in the world of mental health, but to really center your practice and what you do your work on this specific, you know, practice, like, what was that? What was the swaying factor?
00:10:51
Speaker
Um, DPT chose me. i When the first time when I was at the residential, I just was at a conference and just went up, somebody said they needed interns and I just was like, Hey, I can intern for you.
00:11:05
Speaker
And they ended up doing dbt there. And then it happened to be that I was just bartending my, my business. And then he happened to do dbt at the school. So it just felt like it was pulling me. I don't have, I can't say, well, oh, this is this moment. It just, then I just, you know, read about it. And I published articles, um, on my research at the residential and just the effectiveness and, and, um, the, like the core principles of it. I just was drawn to it and I use it like every single day. I taught my clients that all the time. I'm like, Oh no, I use my skills every day.
00:11:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah i mean ah mostly I mean, I hope that people don't think that just because people are therapists that they don't actually like need to use the tools themselves. like i I would hope that you're you're working with a therapist that you know uses the tools themselves or have implemented them in their own life or have worked with people, you know what I mean? So yeah, um yeah use your skills. I love like i love that. um Another thing that you brought up just kind of when you were telling your story is like working with at-risk youth and African-American boys. And this is a podcast where we're we talk a lot about you know motherhood. Can you talk a little bit about like what it was like working in that demographic with those students, with the like young Black men, um you know little little boys, and what that experience was like for you? Yeah. Yeah, I will say it was the hardest job I ever had.
00:12:29
Speaker
I will say that. um And um it what was what's beautiful about being in DC and at at that school was that our staff was Black. We represented our population. Lots of Black males worked at my school. And so that was really helpful for our boys. My experience was that like you know they experienced so much.
00:12:55
Speaker
Most of my students had so much trauma coming in with a lot of the different things, right? Again, they live there, so you got really close with them very quickly. um And with, you know, that experience, I learned so much about how much trauma impacts every single aspect of your life. Not being able to sit in the class, you know, having these, but behaviors that people, you know, that, that makes it difficult for you to get along with other people, for you to even sit in it. Like even being able to sit still.
00:13:30
Speaker
trauma will like stop that. You can just see it almost in their ethic. I mean, we know it changes us at the cellular level. So I think that
Joy and Challenges in Working with Youth
00:13:39
Speaker
was it. And I also saw so much joy there too. I love watching them play. Yeah. You know how like they will be like, oh, kids don't know my kids.
00:13:48
Speaker
playing. Like we took i love it it's on their phones so they didn't have a choice. So they were playing basketball, football, all the things um in the gym. So I like that was one thing and like I used to I used to play them and we would we would race and things like that. I'm like maybe I'll slow.
00:14:09
Speaker
Like, oh, they're all young. But um you know that was one thing that that brought me a lot of joy too, just watching kids play and and being kids. I love that they had the space to be kids because a lot of a lot of kids, they just don't, it's taken away from them and that's so sad.
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, so true. And, and like you said, so sad. And I love that you, I love that you mentioned the joy because a lot, you know, a lot of times when we're talking about at risk or we're talking about our boys is there's, there, that isn't mentioned. Like black boy joy is a thing and it should be embraced and embodied and frolicking in the grass. And I, you know, like I love to see it. Like, so um I'm so um happy that you mentioned that, that you saw that there.
00:14:55
Speaker
um And I wanted to talk a little bit about maybe, you know, you know obviously you're a black woman, right? You yeah right you grew up in an environment um with probably black people.
00:15:08
Speaker
but so What was your experience like, kind of like growing up um as it relates to like mental health, right? Like, did you notice like any stigmas? What was the conversation like? Because it seems like, you know, you went right into it, right? And into college, right? So just interested to hear what your upbringing was like and what the conversations were like for you.
00:15:30
Speaker
Yeah, so um i I'm the only person, you know, I'm the first person in my family to to go to like a four year college and get my degree and all the things. And we we really didn't talk about mental health in that way. um I know, you know, so I, you know, my first Um, kind of thing about mental health was, um, like I said, I'm i'm from New York city. So I remember, uh, and I lived in the Bronx and I remember one time there was a person on the train, you know, that was not, that was unwell and they were like, you know, making noises or doing something. Um, and everybody was moving away from them and I was scared and I i moved away and my mother, as she looked at me and she said, you don't have to worry about him. He is not going to hurt you.
00:16:16
Speaker
You need to worry about people who are acting normal. And that was my first, like, you know, mental health, I guess, thing. And my mom destigmatized it. That's what she add was like. No, like, you don't have to be afraid of this person. They're not going to hurt harm you. Yeah. yeah um So that was like my first like that I could remember with like being around something something that was some or someone that was unwell that I that I noticed that I was like, oh, I'm scared of their behavior. And my mom's like, no need to do that. And you know, just like in New York, you won't you won't see things.
00:16:55
Speaker
And so I I wasn't really thinking about it. I majored in sociology and undergrad. i don't I don't know what I thought I was, I can't remember what I thought I was going to do. That was quite a time ago. um but But in my graduate program, I just remember being like, oh, like, i you know, I want to to serve people. I want to help people. I want to, and now it's kind of evolved into like, I want to move the field forward. I want inclusion. I want, you know, cause DVT,
00:17:28
Speaker
yeah yeah and we We got a long way to go. And, you know, there's a lot of stats. Only 2% of psychologists are Black. but same And it can I think maybe 4 or 5% are Asian. I don't, maybe less than 1% are Asian. Don't quote me on that last one there. but Even that, you know, and in DC, you're kind of isolated and insulated, you know? And then you go to a like national conference and you're like, oh yeah, yeah. yeah oh And that never within itself doesn't count master's program. I'm at the master's level, they're talking about the PhD, society level. But if you are saying, hey, like, can I get a black therapist that does DVT?
00:18:10
Speaker
I can name, in my city, I can name three, including myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. And so going back to, first of all, shout out to your mom for that. um I grew up, I grew up in New York City too. I'm from Harlem.
00:18:25
Speaker
And my husbands from now I'm from 155th and Amsterdam. um My parents still live there. They live on 19th and Linux. That's so funny. Oh, dope. And most of my family's from 146th and 7th. So kind of spent my time in between both of those.
00:18:41
Speaker
um But yeah, I love that. When you say you're from New York, I was like, that's good. Some people say they're from New York and they'd be like from, I don't know, like Albany. but So when you say the Bronx, I was like, oh, you a real New Yorker. not oh So shout out to your mom for that because you do see a lot of that in New York City.
00:18:57
Speaker
um Homelessness is prevalent, right? You are a child on the train and homelessness is
Mental Health in Crisis Situations and Representation
00:19:02
Speaker
prevalent. You see it. Mental health is prevalent. You see it. And so I love that. That was just something that your mom was just like, we don't have to be afraid. And i it's just riffing, I just read a story yesterday about a young man who was 17 years old who was having a mental health experience right he was um suicidal, and he was armed, and he was shot and killed by the police officers right because
00:19:28
Speaker
for what, because he was armed, right? But police officers and this is, we can go on a whole nother topic about not being trained to to to deal with and manage ah conversation with somebody that is unwell. um And so I love that that your mom was like, that was your first introduction to it and step because it does need that level of de-stigmatization because we're talking about mental health and therapy and all these channels and it's becoming a thing.
00:19:55
Speaker
But we we got to start earlier. And so um I just. I'm so passionate about it, so we can have a whole other conversation talking about that. But I want to dig into DBT um and the effectiveness of DBT because because that is your your your emphasis, because that is something you said that you want to expand in the field. um Can you um talk about like any research that supports the effectiveness of DBT and like like you know acceptance and that duality and that tension? Can you talk a little bit
00:20:28
Speaker
Yeah, if you you know look up online and Google Scholar and all the things, there's so much um evidence based that DBT is effective for different communities. Um, basically what, what more, what most people think of DPT is borderline personality disorder. That was what it was originally created for. Like we know now that it is effective for a host of diagnoses, right? And yeah depression, actually PTSD, um, other things that we're seeing, um, across the mental health kind of.
00:21:01
Speaker
diaspora, if you will. um So there are articles that show like just having six months of group and just a backup about the structure of the treatment.
Components and Applications of DBT
00:21:10
Speaker
So what it looks like in practice is that you have a 50 minute session, one hour, whatever with your clinician, your DBT clinician. You also have a 90 minute to two hour group every week and then a diary card. So it is a very robust and structured treatment.
00:21:30
Speaker
um And it's expensive too. we We can talk about that at and another point. but um And then you also have phone coaching with your therapist. So you can call your therapist 24 hours a day or text them whatever you guys set up to talk when you're about to engage in a behavior that you we call it target behaviors that you outlined that that's something that you want to work on.
00:21:54
Speaker
So just so you all know, it is a very structured treatment. You're looking at three and a half hours to four hours of your week. You have a homework assignment from your group. So is is um intent it's It's intense, but it's made to keep people out of the hospital.
00:22:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. not Because that's actually more expensive, right? We know being in the hospital is really like every day is like $1,500. Yeah, I was going to say thousands of dollars a day. Yeah, fiting I'm on a low end. That's way more than that. So um we know, right, that's so the person, Marshall Lenny had that created it was using it to show, hey, to keep the cost down, we do this treatment.
00:22:34
Speaker
right And there's a ah huge ah um element of mindfulness in the treatment as well. We know that what mindfulness does, Even for ADHD, my point is it's helpful, gets people to, you know, the suicidality goes down, um suicide suicide ideation, even self-harm decreases with DVT, um anxiety symptoms, depressive symptoms, they all decrease in DVT. And the group is just about is about six months to a year, depending on, you know, which
00:23:06
Speaker
like um practice you go with. In my practice we do a year so they do two rounds of the skills so we could really really hammer them in there um remember but we know that um and there's increasing research on autism spectrum disorder and it being because it previously we thought that it wasn't like when I first started like 15 years ago they were like oh no it doesn't work for that population but because we've expanded what the actual definition definition of autism is, it actually does work for that population and we're seeing more research that it's effective for them as well. Yeah, wow, that's so...
00:23:43
Speaker
intricate and extensive and also seems very like supportive of an individual kind of going through a process. um I from my perspective from just kind of like just hearing and learning about this I didn't know that it was like that extensive and that and that detailed right like I'm thinking of it as like a CVT practice where it's like that you know you go into the talk therapy and the and they incorporate it you know into what you're doing. This sounds more like an actual program. I didn't know there was like a program you had to follow if you're doing DBT. So um I'm learning something here today. I mean, I'm not a professional, but I'm learning, right? Like that's really interesting. How do you go about finding someone to do this type of approach, right? Is there like a, I don't know, a search engine or?
00:24:34
Speaker
Yeah. So you have people who are like certified, which is a long process. um And that's by the Leningham board. There's other certifications as well, but Leningham board is kind of the the gold standard. You can go on there and you can find a dbt therapist in your area that way. We do not like I am not certified. I'm putting that up right there. And I I think I do pretty well. But you can just go and like kind of do a Google VBT therapist. um I'm going to tell you right now, you're probably going to be on the wait list. That's another issue. so Some places like Seattle, because that's where the treatment came from, you're looking at like six months a year.
00:25:13
Speaker
like we have people on our wedding list now to get into the program because you only because of the the population and because of like we talked about with like you know all of the things that you have to do you're only taking about four to five some people are gonna mind please don't DM me about i take 10 um
00:25:35
Speaker
I would not suggest it because I want to provide them for treatment, right? And I can't be used to it. And people are texting me and calling me, right? At all hours. I have a, I have a stamp on that too. But like, you know,
00:25:49
Speaker
the I take about five or six in between the most people take about five or six. So it's just not enough people to like so mine cover as many people. Like ours was like nine months at one time. It's like, dang, you know, but like people were full and, you know, you kind of try to move them to the next stage of treatment. It's four stages of the treatment. To get out of the group, you got to get out of stage one. But if you have five stage one clients, it's a lot. It's a lot. That's why the the waiting list look like they do.
00:26:18
Speaker
That's so that's crazy. um And that's really and it sucks for, you know, people who would want it, who are interested in this level of support and level of care. So we're talking about an access issue, right, obviously, like people just don't have access to this type of treatment and it's like,
00:26:36
Speaker
um um How do you, how do you change that, right? How do you, maybe it's training more, you know, like you're doing, like training more people in this practice, but um what do you, what's your, your thinking on how to, how do we expand, you know, DBT for people? Yeah. We got to be talking about it in graduate school. I mean, people aren't even, they're like, CBT, you know, like, I think I heard like a tiny blurb.
00:27:02
Speaker
in one of my psychotherapy classes, I think that's the issue. I think also, you know, their DBT as a whole, they they're doing PhD side level for training opportunity. Kind of got to come down and be like, listen, we got to train the master's levels clinicians as well, so that we're all having more access to it across the country. And and it's really big in other countries like Australia, I don't
00:27:33
Speaker
Australia, in Ireland, in Germany, there's ah like in in in European countries as well. There's a lot of DBT there, but um it's just not, like, it's just not people don't talk about it. Like, that's why I'm here to get people like, and you know, you do not have to be suicidal. No, you don't have to sell harm. Many of my clients actually don't.
00:27:53
Speaker
We have other high-risk behaviors. other you know We look at substance use. Also, um we work with people that have that issue as well. That's not just that. and I think it stigmatizes the treatment as well, and that's a part of the problem too. It's like, oh, DBC. As soon as you hear borderline personality disorder in the mental health field, people call it the kiss of death. Oh, wow. yeah That's terrible. Yeah, we but you don't even want to put it on their paperwork.
00:28:19
Speaker
cause you don't but Yeah. Yeah. His insurance goes up. Like it's, it's, you know, like it's a thing. yeah It's a thing. yeah Yeah. Yeah. That's also a part of the issue. Like there's a stigma within the mental health community.
00:28:33
Speaker
about like about it as well. That's working with certain diagnosis. Even if I tell them why we do DBT, they're like, whoa, like and that's way too much. Like in the in the mental health field. So people really understanding what it is and getting trained. And that's not all I do either. I do way more clients that are not DBT than are.
00:28:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you kind of, in your practice, you're doing a mix of things, right? Like you're not just doing, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, it's just like, as just like a person on the outside, I mean, like I hope and pray, um you know, that the field continues. um My experience with DVT is when I was in treatment, my my own self, like when I went to treatment, I ah had a facilitator who would bring in specific like DVT tools.
00:29:20
Speaker
one of the tools that he taught us was Dear Man. Oh yeah, Dear Mantonia. And that was really, it was really fun and effective way to, we actually did like modeling in the class, like and we did in our group therapy sessions, we did like, you know, people would do role playing to like actually like act out scenarios to help them to kind of maybe talk to a partner or to change situations. So Um, that's when I knew that I was like, I know dbt, but I'm like, I only know just a little slimmer from the tools. Um, and I'm actually in the process right now of applying to, um, grad school. And, um, I love to hear that just like perspectives from other people that are in the field of like, what would you change about the field? Right. And so hearing that dbt being introduced at the master's level, I think that that.
00:30:10
Speaker
would be a great idea. um And, you know, maybe, you know, maybe you're the one that probably has to go in there and champion that idea, you know? Who knows? Maybe that's why, I mean, maybe that's why DBT found you, right? I don't know. I believe in, you know, all things happening for a reason. um Yeah, for sure.
00:30:30
Speaker
Yeah, im I'm so happy to hear that you're you're thinking about graduate school and and applying for programs. A lot of people will know certain skills. Certain skills are like like radical acceptance. right I feel like I know that one.
00:30:45
Speaker
You'd be surprised how many people don't actually know I was doing a group because I am a group facilitator at some treatment centers here in Georgia. And um I talked about radical acceptance yesterday. I was like, do y'all know what radical acceptance is? And they were like, no, what is that? And I was like, Okay, let me teach you. So first of all, can you explain from a clinician's perspective what radical acceptance is for our audience and then continue with what you're saying? Radical acceptance is one of our DBT skills. I love this skill. um I don't like to use it when it's time. but i mean So basically it looks like accepting things that you cannot change.
00:31:23
Speaker
Right. And the way I would teach, you know, it's funny because when I worked with students, I was like, this is in the clouds. Like, I was like, they are not going to understand this. So I'm like, how can I do this in a practice? First of all, shout out to my students because they got like this.
00:31:39
Speaker
And so then I asked my um my the person that was um that did the training, I was like, why do kids understand radical acceptance? Why do they get that there are things that they they can't change? And so they they accept them, right? When we find reality, we increase our suffering. That's what we do. And so she but she goes, you know, kids, they don't have a lot of control over their life.
00:32:04
Speaker
They don't control where they go to school, where they live, what they eat for dinner, what they wear. So that is why they're connected to adults have a harder time of radical acceptance. Because we want to control things. Yeah, we just can't. So what I used to do was I would get a I would draw on the board a circle and I had these like little um stickies and it was like different things and I would say inside the circle is everything you can control and outside the circle is all the things you can't control right and so they would put things up and they would put them inside the circle and then they would want to argue with me about then they would put things on the line like I don't know so dumb like art yeah was but you know but I had like you know my skin color my hair texture
00:32:47
Speaker
um what people say about me, how I respond to things, whether I send the um text, whether I post a thing on social media, the weather. um Traffic. Yeah, traffic. What my teacher assigns to me. And we can even do that as adults. Like, what is in my circle? What are things that I have control over and everything that's out of it? It literally is radical acceptance. Like, I want my students bright and sunny, but that doesn't happen every day.
00:33:14
Speaker
I have to accept because it just, I noticed when I'm not accepting, it is and most definitely increasing my suffering. Yeah. Yes. i up Why does it have to rain? um It's just not effective. it just not effective yeah yeah It just makes me feel worse. Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, like i'm or I love that we're talking about this because when back to when when I was in treatment, that was the change for me when I accepted the fact that I have PMDD.
00:33:44
Speaker
I have MDD, I have these diagnoses and like for the rest of my life, I'm going to have to live and manage my life with these diagnoses because if I sit here and be like, woe is me, I'm so sad, I'm depressed, woe is me, like I hate the fact that I have to have this condition every month where I'm literally suicidal, whatever.
00:34:04
Speaker
like That's only going to increase my suffering for the time when I can't experience joy or I can accept the fact that this is my reality and live my life knowing that and just being like, okay, how do we get through today? How do we manage my life? And I think that that change and shift from me like changed my entire perspective on life in general, because just like you said, it's like,
00:34:26
Speaker
you You can't do anything about it. So like, why are we going to say like, you know, like, and like you can't change it. So what is the the sense of wasting time complaining about it or wasting energy and and all of that on nothing on something you can't change? So I love I heard a love that we got into that. And that being the dbt that most people know.
00:34:47
Speaker
um Like you said, I think there's more to be learned, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, i you know, I always say acceptance greases the wheels for change. right Really hard for you to change something if you're not willing to accept it first. That's step one. Right? And because there are some things that you that you might be able to change. Or it's more early that you can't.
00:35:12
Speaker
Or you're just so stuck that you can't think of anything because you're so stuck in how messed up this is. Once you pass that, then you can start thinking of, okay, what are the actual solutions? What can I actually do? So that's one of my favorite skills and also my not favorite skills, a dialectic, because then I'm like, damn.
00:35:34
Speaker
I don't really want to do that. I don't really want to accept that. That's not really what I want to do. And also, I know that that's the most effective thing. So that skill, Dear Man is a big one. I love Dear Man. I teach that to all of my clients, whether they're DBT or not. I use it. I really sit there and be like, what's my um I use it to get a raise. like why is that like I the intro. To get your way with your husband, because that's how I use it.
00:36:08
Speaker
um
00:36:12
Speaker
Yes, um I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it. um And there's so many, I'm sure, other tools that are out there, if people do research and look and look up, you know, DBT, that they will be able to find it. um So pivoting into like the type of people you serve, right? So you work with at-risk use, like what type of clients do you work with now? Do you work with, um do you happen to work with any moms? Or like what's the typically the demographic of clients that you're seeing?
DBT for Moms: Self-care and Parenting
00:36:40
Speaker
Yeah, so I, you know, dbt is very woman have female heavy. So I mostly work with women in in the dbt capacity. um I work with a lot of women of color, which is really nice. um You know, I'm gonna put it out there. I'm the only black person at my practice. Someone is looking for a black therapist, they are going to request me. um so yeah my way listen little longer oh yeah yeah um and then a um A decent amount of them are actually moms. They have children. And we talk about using the skills with your children. We really talk about using the skills in a way to regulate and tolerate all the things that come with being a mom.
00:37:22
Speaker
I remember one of my clients, who's a mom, she has a ah young daughter, and she was asking, well, how do you I use my, how do I use Dear Man with my, like, she's like toddler, child, talk about that. But the things that moms are facing, like, it's just ah so much I give it up to the moms all the time. Doing all that and you're coming to treatment and you're doing your diet and you're coming to group and individual. right like I'm just so impressed by by them and their drive to want to change.
00:37:55
Speaker
oh to do things differently. But, you know, one thing that I notice is that they tell me that through the skills and through DVT, they've learned to be more patient with their children. They've learned on the other side, through dialectics, to walk the middle path, what does it look like? Like, what does it look like for them to, you know, have this and that? And what does it look like for me and myself? Because I always like, moms tend to think about how, like, in their thing, like, my kids.
00:38:23
Speaker
my kids, everyone, my kids. And absolutely, right? You have to show up for your kid. like So like you have to be well. So like I try to like take the focus off of the child and be it on you. like You're the person, what some of them like about it. like they don't have They can throw all of that down. I'm not here to judge them. And they can come in and say, like you know I yelled at my kid the other day.
00:38:50
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm like, listen, kids be doing stuff that make you want to yell at them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. how you know like Like they do things, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and you're a person at first. You know, so shout out to all of the moms that I see. I always text them and say Happy Mother's Day. But they all have like like young kind of kids like like your little candy. And, you know, like, like you were saying, um I like with your mom clients that they it helps them in their relationships with themselves and with their kids, which is, I think, like you said, they're always about kids and
00:39:30
Speaker
that's i think not i don't want to say it's a problem because you should you know love your kids and be about your kids but it goes to that very like cliche but very necessary statement of like you need to make sure your cup is full um in order to give to others right like you go to the airplane you put the mask on yourself first like all those things it has to come you like how your kids feel emotionally regulated, how they feel supported and nurtured is coming from you. And so you need to be well also. And so I love that you're, you know, you take the attention first you know off of the kid and onto the mom so that it becomes about her because in so many spaces, moms, it's not about, it's like, even though we're the mom, it's not about us, right? We have a kid, people come over to see the baby. and They don't come over to see if you are struggling with your mental health and potentially if you need some food and and can't get off the bed. They're not coming for that. They're coming to be like, Oh my God, look at the cute baby. Like, you know, like that's what they're coming for. Um, and so it's moms aren't the center of attention. Once you have that child, your world becomes that child. And then there's this, then there becomes this like point in motherhood. And I'm speaking about my own journey here. and Maybe some moms listening can relate where you're like, okay, but what about me?
00:40:44
Speaker
like yeah ah you know like and I outside of all of the titles and the things that I do for everybody else. And I think that when moms face that challenge, that's when you start to see the burnout and the overwork and depression and the anxiety and all the things and the stress.
00:41:04
Speaker
um and so Focus on yourself, moms. Because the other thing I want to add to is like, listen, these dads, they got to step up. Hello. so like like And that's another thing that I advocate. I really advocate with my moms.
00:41:21
Speaker
Why is he like we got a dear man him doing some more hello. Yes No, because they're scared to do it ask for help sometimes, you know, like mom in a beer But it's his child too, you know and everybody Party when they see a ah dad pushing a stroller I'm like, I'm just kidding. And so I see the discrepancies with mom and dad and like what the expectations are for a mom and what they are for a dad. And so one of the things that I talk about in my sessions is how are we taking some of that pressure off of you? He is a living, being, grown a adult man. right yeah You're not laying everything out for him to do.
00:42:07
Speaker
Right? That's a part of patriarchy, let's be honest, that they don't do as much. No, no, you are married. Some of these people are married. Like I can see a mom that is a different conversation, but you're married and that man lives in a home with you. Why is everything on you? No, you have to figure out. And I told, like I will, aside from homework, write down everything that you do.
00:42:32
Speaker
Write down everything you do. We're going to come back. And then they they like so people told me they cry when they wrote down anything that they did. Because I'm like, we're going to figure out what he going to do. Right. There's some of it. There's some of it. And then too, it's not you just sitting at home chilling. like I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. We got to take some of that that pressure off. So that's a part of like what I talk about patriarchy. I talk about racism. I talk about um white supremacy in my sessions with Black people. I'm showing it up and I'm saying it and I'm pointing it out and I'm highlighting it. And I'm like, well, why is it that? And they're like, Oh, I never thought about it. Yeah. And you know, and that, I think that honesty, that rawness, that realness, that transparency, it's, it it's great when it's coming from somebody that looks like you and can understand the colloquialisms and can understand like the, the, what you're facing, right? You're a black woman, so you get it, you understand.
00:43:27
Speaker
um And can you talk about like how important having those culturally competent therapeutic experiences is helpful for our people, right? Can you talk a little bit about why that's important? Why you're talking about racism? Why you're talking about the patriarchy? And um then why like why are you doing that? like What is the ah purpose behind that? How does that help your clients?
00:43:50
Speaker
Yeah, um I mean, it's all about validation, you know, right? Like then them feel seen, feel heard, feel like people under, like I understand. You know, I had a client was talking about, you know, like getting angry with their child um about not listening. And they have a black child. And I'm like, I get it. Because if that boy don't listen, in certain um circumstances, he can end up dead.
00:44:18
Speaker
Right. Like he, like I get it. Like I know her to understand and she felt like it was so powerful for her. Right. like That is why I'm doing this behavior because a lot of that is connected back to that because right out of fear, you got to get your son in line.
00:44:33
Speaker
yeah like that Yeah. That's our opinion. As much like as a mother, like you're like, you gotta be in line. You have to listen to directions. When somebody tells you, especially a police officer tells you something, you do it and you don't ask questions. Yeah. Because we don't have time for you to be asking questions because then my son will be dead and I'm not trying to do that. Yes. yes Connecting back. That validation, it brings down some of the feelings and the guilt and the shame for how some of our behaviors are. If you're just connecting it back, right that's that increasing of the awareness of what's happening. And now maybe you're going to have to, because all of those things are absolutely true. right i that do your son needs to like Let's just be honest, like they do need to follow directions in certain circumstances as they don't have the leash that other people have.
00:45:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, they don't. Mm hmm. And so, like, how do you balance that? Like, how do you, what's the tension? Where's the dialectic? Right? Yeah. I can tell my son that he has to follow directions for these reasons and do it in a way that, you know, is validating and understanding and explaining why these things have to happen.
Cultural Pressures and Mental Health Strategies
00:45:45
Speaker
Right, right. Perfectionism, I see. um So I work with a lot of like women who are in these like high positions and you know you feel like you can't mess up o Like, you're the only one in the room I know, because I'm the only one in the room, hello yeah right right? Even like your trainers, people be like questioning me, I'm like, I'm on the board. right right like like right Like, I feel i understand like what it is to come in because you feel like you just, because you know, when you're a kid, what what do your parents say? You got to work twice as hard to get half as much. ah hu and And what it looks like for us is perfectionism, anxiety,
00:46:26
Speaker
Right? I used to be, I couldn't sleep before training for like a year. Because I was reading the wrongs, reading those, reading those, because I didn't want to mess up. Because I was young too. So there, while I look young. Oh, who's that? Like, she don't know what she's talking about. And it happens to me to this day. I think someone else said, and they will email.
00:46:48
Speaker
oh or leave a comment or whatever the case may be. So our you know we just I see that show up for them and just me validating that experience yeah is ah is a lot. And it brings down a lot of the emotion and that comes with that feeling of perfectionism. um yeah sure you know We got to move to like, we all can't be perfect.
00:47:11
Speaker
Like we can't, like I said, perfect people aren't real and real people aren't perfect. It just is that way. Like, and you know, you just, you know, you make a mistake, you own up to it, you move on.
00:47:22
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And you're like, Oh, they're gonna remember it from that. bit Like, you know, like, we you know, and it's true, it's true. And it just happens, right? It just happens. So that's one of the things that like I see is the perfectionist, the big one. I talk about that all the time. I talk about how that relates to white supremacy, because I'm telling you, other people make mistakes, and they're not feeling that same way. because i Yeah.
00:47:45
Speaker
Yeah. And I don't care if they messed up on that email to the entire company. It's like, a got it like Oh, my bad. Okay. mom dad It is what it is. And keep, yeah, it keeps going and ah recovering perfectionist here. So I totally um relate to like what you were saying. And I think that exercise with the circle of the like in your control, out of your control kind of like helps break that down too. Right? Like the struggle of like,
00:48:11
Speaker
Like, it's okay to make mistakes. Like these things, some things just are not in your control, right? Like, um can you talk a little bit about just kind of like bringing it back to tips for moms, right? Can you talk about like any practical tools or strategies in DBT that moms or anybody listening doesn't have to be a mom can use to support like in their day to day, their mental health?
00:48:36
Speaker
Sure, sure. So I love um accumulating positive experiences, right? That's there's this like, please skills and accumulating positive experiences, like we're making sure we're getting just enough sleep. And if you have a newborn, this is not for you.
00:48:52
Speaker
I'm sorry. It's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. We're gonna radically accept that we're gonna have to get through this. You can experience some sleep regression. I'm not talking to you right now. Those things that you can control, like you're eating, you can't control that. But sleep, like that we're getting quality sleep. I'm like, I am shook. Here's what I call the three frees. And this is for moms and pretty much anybody. Sleep, free. Exercise can be free, right? You can run outside for free.
00:49:22
Speaker
Sleep, exercise, and you're eating. Those things impact our mood so much. whoa And I say, if and people and my clients had those in order or the people that I see had those in order, I have half the people that I've seen, right? Because it impacts our mood is so much. So moms, eat your meal. you right like If you have older kids and you're you're able to, get to bed and get your eight hours of sleep.
00:49:50
Speaker
And I don't like to say exercise really, move movement. move your body move your body go outside with it we know like the 15 minutes of the of the sunlight right that's our natural serotonin right there we can get that we can even get that diet like eating certain things supplements yeah yeah yeah and then some in the moment practical things we call like spuds which is subjective units of the stress and you find yourself like I am at a 70, right? Like my kid is rolling on the floor in Target, and I might, I might leave him here. Like, I'm considering it. Like, all right. Like your act of this, the tried and true, I say is tip, the tip skills, temperature. Now, you probably not gonna be able to do that Walmart, but you might be. You can do it at home, get you a bowl of water,
00:50:50
Speaker
Fill it up with ice. you know, and just stick your head in, like your face in the water, it brings you down like this. And you're enacting the, the, the dive reflex where your heart, cause we know like when we're in that moment and we're distressed and we're at like a 765 or higher, our heart is like, it it works.
00:51:13
Speaker
I have not seen a client tell me that temperature didn't work. It works. You know, girls that's like, I'm not getting my hair wet. I get you right so that's nothing I say like just a little modification they not say this with other groups but I'm saying it I'm like take some ice and put it on your pressure points out here and that will help to to bring that down so temperature is like your one when you have access to it um and yeah or if you can't open the freezer and stick your head in it
00:51:46
Speaker
And just pretty like, that's that's what I'm going to do when my kids come down and and they see my head in the freezer, I'm going to be like, yeah, well, Mariah told me. you know
00:51:57
Speaker
And for this, for those of you that are listening, when she said to put the ice on your pressure points, that was right underneath your eyes um that she mentioned. So temperature, I love that.
00:52:11
Speaker
Um, all of those, um, seem that like things that moms could just do, right? Like easily, like that's just right in your toolbox. So if these are things that, you know, if you're struggling or fewer, you know, like at a 10 out of seven out of two, when you just need to like take it take a ah moment, I think that those are all things that we have access to. Um, water. Also, a lot of people don't drink water. Did you know that? Yeah, that you can do pace breathing works.
00:52:41
Speaker
So sometimes you're not going to have this. You're not like, um, girl, I'm at the mall. I do not. I'm in Target. I do not have access to ice. You're just going to exhale longer than you inhale.
00:52:54
Speaker
Just inhale for five. I would love for you to hold it for six and then exhale for seven. That'd be great. But if you can't think of all that, cause you're just too high up in the moment, just inhale longer than yet. Exhale longer than you inhale and it'll be, you know, we're we're resetting our system because what you want to do is when you get into these, um, like your suds are high like that and you're at a 65 or higher, your fight or flight is on.
00:53:19
Speaker
oh oh And so we want to get our body to naturally like do the parasympathtic some parasympathetic nervous system. That's our body's natural rest and restore. And make sure you do that. Intense exercise does that. So you know how you intensely exercise and you feel that calm down? That's your body's rest and restore coming.
00:53:41
Speaker
Yeah. Ooh, okay. You can actually do intense exercise too. Like if you're like up high in your, your suds, you're 65 or higher, and since exercise is one of the skills and it'll bring down, it'll, it'll enact that once you stop, it'll enact that rest and restore system. And another thing that the fight or flight, there's some research saying that being late is enacting your fight and flight.
00:54:05
Speaker
And it's like, you're late, you're good to do it and it's enacting, especially if you have some trauma, it's enacting that. So try to be on time. Things happen. things on Things happen. But plan ahead and try to be on time so that you're not starting out where you're like, dang, I got to do a tip scale. I ain't even get to work yet. I ain't even got to work yet.
00:54:28
Speaker
yeah yeah yeah You know what I mean? So I gotta do that as well. That's so cool. I learned something new. I love to run, especially when I'm very anxious. Like I would be like, if I don't go outside and run right now, like it's going to be a problem for everybody. and Um, so I, so, and now look that's in their songs behind it. So now I can use this episode when my husband's like, you don't want to cook instead. I'm gonna be like, no, I need to run.
00:54:55
Speaker
cook is but
00:55:05
Speaker
that You dropped in this episode, so many things that I think, you know, anyone listening, whether you're a mom or just a woman, and a man, whoever is somewhere in between, you I don't, whoever you are listening, I hope there's something that you learned in this episode. um We talked a lot about DVT and I know that, and all the, a lot of medical terms being thrown out there. and um But I hope that, you know, the way that Mariah has broken it down um has been really helpful for you. um My last question for you is like, if you have some advice or support that you would offer someone right now that's seeking support or looking for help, what would it be?
00:55:41
Speaker
Um, I am on my African proverb right now is yes. One bite at a time. Eat the album. Just do one thing at a time. That's it. Yes. I love it. Maybe you're just looking at profiles for therapists. Maybe just look at them. Just to expose yourself to it. I'm big on exposure. In a lot of exposure treatments. So just look at them. Just look at therapists in your area. You don't have to call them. You don't have to email them. Just look.
00:56:10
Speaker
right right One, what i always like when I found myself getting stuck in a session, I always go back and say, what is the one thing that you can do that will build your life worth living this week that you can do consistently? And sometimes they'll be like, go outside for 15 minutes, three times this week. And I'm like, great. Little things aren't little.
00:56:37
Speaker
Mm hmm. Do what you can. Whatever that one thing is, work on that one thing and mess it. Yeah, I love that. That's so that's so profound, the way that you said it, but also so easy to do. But also I want to hold space for people where some things like that are not easy to do, right? Like if you're in a dark, deep depression, and the only thing you could do for your one thing is get out of bed.
00:57:04
Speaker
that day, like let it be let that be your one thing. right Let that be the one thing that you can focus on, you know making up your bed, right if that's the one thing, right or you know taking a shower. like i know people you know There are people who struggle with just the basics right when they are deep and in their depression or in their disorder. and so that I think is some really great advice probably one of the best we've had so far because it's so simple but also so effective just changing that one thing um can really push you you know push you further yeah yeah and if you can't do the one thing in the day you want to do it guess what tomorrow's another day hello yes tomorrow's another day you'll do it you can still do it all is not lost you can still do it
00:57:59
Speaker
to share an affirmation scripture or intention to close out our episode for, I guess, do you have anything to share? Dang. I was like, gonna think of something, didn't think of it.
00:58:16
Speaker
ah I think that I was, I actually was saying things to myself before I started this episode. I just interviewed, I'm always like so nervous about doing these things. And I just, you know, said to myself, you know what you're talking about. You know the material. You know what you're supposed to say. You know how you're going to, you you know it. You know it. Right. Right. You know, what has been said to me, you know, you know,
00:58:43
Speaker
yeah know I gotta have anxiety, so I'm like, ah! But you know it, you you always know more than you think that you do. um And what you don't know, you ask.
00:58:54
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. That's so good. I love that. um Because you know sometimes we we are invalidating ourselves, right? Or we you know like we don't think that we're enough or that you know we are not worthy of the spaces that we're in or imposter syndrome keeps in. So you know what you're doing. and So I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that with our guests and for being here today with me and talking with me. um I appreciate it.
00:59:22
Speaker
Yeah, I appreciated everything you had to share. um I hope that our listeners learned something today. I definitely learned a lot for sure. um And sorry, I'm gonna have to redo this part because I'm like blanking.
00:59:40
Speaker
happy awesome Okay. All right. So thank you for coming on today. Um, I appreciate you being here. Um, I hope that our guests will live well and we will see you next time on the Sew Well Podcast.
Conclusion and Invitation to Community
00:59:54
Speaker
Bye. Thank you. Hit the notification bell, wherever you are listening to us today and join us next week as we delve into more mental health conversations. The Sew Well community offers a safe ground for the transformative healing and restoration of intergenerational trauma, ensuring moms of color have a space to rewrite their stories, recover, live well, be seen and heard. Join us online and on Instagram at Sew Well for daily inspiration, blogs, events, and more. See you next time.