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Selling Beer & Building Brands featuring Tom Delmont
751 Plays3 months ago
Few people in Australia have put as much craft beer into as many venues as Tom Delmont.
He was Mountain Goat's first ever sales rep – forcing his way into the role and leaving the world of entomology behind – before moving on from the Melbourne icons when they sold to Asahi, later founding IPA-centric brewing company Fixation with the founders of Stone & Wood.
He left Fixation a few weeks prior to recording this show, joining carbon accounting platform Zevero, and on the podcast shares stories from his colourful career in beer as well as insights into the art of selling beer and building beer brands.
Anyone that's met him over his two decades in beer will know he's a great storyteller and has a genuine love for good beer that surpasses pretty much everyone else on the planet.
As an aside, hours after we recorded the show, both he then we learned that Lion had taken the decision to close the Incubator – Fixation's brewpub in Melbourne – hence the late insert into the show. The brand and IPAs will live on, however.
Links referenced in or relevant to the show:
Froth Town 2024: https://www.froth.town/
Bendigo On The Hop 2024: https://www.bendigobeer.com/both-2024
Lord Nelson sold to Laundy Hotels: https://craftypint.com/news/3545/laundy-hotels-buy-the-lord-nelson
Burnley Brewing to close their Richmond taproom: https://craftypint.com/news/3548/burnley-brewing-to-close-their-richmond-taproom
Zevero launches in Australia: https://craftypint.com/news/3539/zeveros-mission-to-help-breweries-cut-emissions
NB: around 47 minutes in, you might pick up a slight buzzing sound coming and going. We're not sure what's caused this given we didn't pause or restart the recording before that point, but we'll attempt to find out what caused it before the next show...
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Transcript
Introduction to the Special Guest: Tom Delmont
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to the Crafty Pint podcast. I'm Will. I'm James, and we have a special guest with us this week doing something a little bit different. We've got our guest along for the entire show, Tom Delmont from Zaviro, but also many other roles in the beer world that I guess we'll get to later. How are you, Tom? Pretty good. Thanks, James. Good day, Will. How are you?
00:00:26
Speaker
Tom, thank you for joining us. Couldn't think of a better person to have as the first in-studio entire show guest. Thank you. It seems like a long time ago when we first met. Yes, we'll get to that in a bit as well.
Will's Experience at Blobfish Festival
00:00:41
Speaker
Okay, what have you been up to this week, Will?
00:00:43
Speaker
Well, I've been a blobfish, which is a festival dedicated to mix culture, farmhouse, funky beers hosted by Hop Nation now in it. I'm going to mess this up. I want to say four. Sorry. Yeah. There was a Covid year where it didn't happen. It's been running since 2019.
00:00:59
Speaker
bit smaller this year because they couldn't get access to the venue, so they hosted in their taproom instead. It was still incredible. I had the best time, everyone had the best time. Huge shout out to the Hop Nation team for running like a stellar event. Yeah, they just nailed it. It had everything you wanted, delicious beer, oysters.
00:01:19
Speaker
What do you want in the world? You were just drinking pills most of the day weren't you? Yeah, every time I was on camera I was drinking a pills nut. But it's interesting I had that thought that you know there can be a tendency for beer festivals like that where it's mixed culture to sort of think it's like going to be the sort of nerdiest of the beer nerds and the sort of thinnest edge of the wedge but I don't know it just was a very broad
00:01:45
Speaker
audience i think i don't know if that's because it's now in its fourth year and people really love the festival i want to go back but it didn't yeah it wasn't as nerdy as potentially it could have been whatever beer nerd means but it was a very broad group of people and aside from the raten hund what was it was there a standout beer or brewery on the day
00:02:04
Speaker
Oh, they were all great, but Dollar Bill had a Fajoa Sour, which was one of the sort of biggest expressions of Fajoa in a beer I've ever had. Sorry, I ain't wired. And Garage Project had their chance like a magic, which has now got two medals at the World Beer Cup in America and was what, champion Australian, sorry, champion international beer at the Australian Beer Awards as well.
00:02:30
Speaker
maybe different vintages of it but it's a i mean it's a lambic inspired beer effectively it's it's stunning yeah no it's great to see small festivals like that continuing to thrive i think there has been we've written about it a few times over the years there are still the big festivals but there's these smaller more sort of niche festivals you guys did some in your fixation days like resin fest how many people would you get for that 80 to 100 each session two sessions
00:02:54
Speaker
and I guess what sort of more captive audience potentially or more interested and just I guess showcasing special beers and yeah just great beers a little number of a small number of breweries but also being able to have it and the Hop Nation guys having in the home as well this time is awesome and yeah sold out all three sessions which is great.
00:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, and you reckon potentially they could, because they've re-done the venue in the last few months as well, so is it more suited to that? Yeah, they have a lot more space to play with, which is why they renovated the venue. Very little brewing gets done in there anymore, although it is the home of their site, Beers, which is their wild, funkier staff, and they've also got the distillery in there as well. So they just have a lot more space, they have their own kitchen doing pizza, so it's a different way of operating now than they can do this kind of thing.
00:03:40
Speaker
and you're gonna festival will this month aren't you off to froth town in WA next week and yes never been but looking forward to it and then touchdown when you get back and straight off to uh bending on the hop yeah non-stop yeah i don't know about that
00:03:56
Speaker
Nice to be home sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Sale of Lord Nelson Pub: End of an Era?
00:03:58
Speaker
And in terms of the week's news, I guess the big story the last few days has been the Lord Nelson selling in Sydney. Now to the handful of people that might not know the Lord Nelson was taken over by this character, a colourful character Blair Hayden back in the mid-80s who'd been inspired by the beers he and the pubs he'd enjoyed in the UK. Started brewing on site straight away at a time when nobody was, you know, doing small scale brewing really.
00:04:25
Speaker
And 38 years on, they sold to the Laundi Hotels pub group. You were saying they put the business up for sale two or three years ago. Yeah, so well, that's when we first did a story in 2021. They put out for sale. Blair was pretty open that basically his time running this pub. So, you know, it does claim to have the oldest license in Sydney sometimes.
00:04:45
Speaker
these things are a bit disputed but uh he's you know 10L running it he felt was at an end he's ready to retire and it was off the market for a bit and obviously they were looking to sell it still so yeah the laundry group is a one of the more significant hospitality groups in new south wales has about 40 pubs has marsden brew house so it has dabbled in the craft beer space and has some craft beer venues in the group as well
00:05:10
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think the sale doesn't go through for a few weeks still, I think, so it's just still time to catch Blair and his remarkable spectacles at the bathroom. Have you been there, Tom? I have and have snuck into the brewery underneath before as well, which was an incredible place to see and just a pretty, I guess,
00:05:30
Speaker
It's like a rabbit war and isn't the way all the pipes and tubes make their way between. I was going to say unconventional way to brew beer, but just amazing and hats off to Blair for amazing innings in the game and well done. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think what's amazing is whether the brewer who's been there, Andrew has been
00:05:46
Speaker
been there for longer than any head brewer at any brewery in Australia. So, yeah, maybe he'll stay on and offer a bit of continuity. And I guess, you know, I guess that looks like it isn't going to offer a positive future for the Lord Nelson. A little bit more up in the air. It was a story you put together earlier in the week, Will, on Burnley Brewing.
00:06:05
Speaker
So since the start, they've had the production brewery as well as the tap room, still seeking a bit of clarity about whether that will continue operating or what it will mean. But it's, I mean, looks to be just another closure for 2024. Yeah. And what's
Challenges in the Craft Brewing Industry
00:06:20
Speaker
your take on this, Tom? Obviously you've worked for Mountain Goat for a number of years, uh, then Stonewall Fixation. And now you're sort of on the other side, you know, almost like, I guess, an observer of what's been happening in the smaller part of the beer world.
00:06:32
Speaker
Yeah, I mean it's a pretty tough time for a lot of craft breweries and I guess that part of Bridge Road is not always known with, you know, a lot of activity. The Bridge Hotel was right there and did pretty well but yeah, pretty tricky spot and I guess a really tough story to hear but they've made some great beers and a lot of great lagers and they're doing a lot of contract brewing but yeah, it's definitely tough times all around at the moment and I guess we'll talk a bit more about it later.
00:07:02
Speaker
Yeah for sure. All right we'll take a quick break there and then we'll come back for a chat with Tom about what he's up to now since moving on from Fixation and we'll see you then. Cheers.
00:07:17
Speaker
Hello listeners, let's pause it right there because we actually have some breaking news. So, best laid plans of mice and men. Hey James. After Afghanagli, as my father would like to say in his best Robbie Burns recital, yes.
00:07:34
Speaker
Yes, so it looks like Burnley is not the only taproom that will be closing soon because we've just been formed by another one in inner city Melbourne, James. Yeah, so a couple of hours after Tom finished recording with us yesterday, he received a phone call from one of his former colleagues at Lion and they are going to be closing the Fixation Incubator in Collingwood in the coming weeks. The Fixation brand is going to continue. The IPA will still be available.
00:08:01
Speaker
It sounds like the sort of the I guess the crunch point was the fact they had a seven-year lease on the building That's now up for renewal and I think given the current climate I guess both within hospital and within sort of the wider line business and they decided
00:08:16
Speaker
It wasn't feasible to go ahead. They're currently working through finding new roles for the Brewer Shore and other staff there within the wider lion business. They weren't planning to actually make any announcement at this stage. I think it really was something that happened this week. Then they found out that we were chatting to Tom and had a courtesy. I received a phone call from the same person a few hours ago letting us know this was the plan.
00:08:43
Speaker
Yeah, okay, and obviously people who've been paying attention to Lion will know there's been a fair bit of rationalization in terms of its craft brands. Two Birds obviously closed, and there's no more brand there. A number of the brew pubs have ceased to operate, changed hands, and all these kind of things are moving pretty quickly, along with Malt Shuffle as well, Chuck Arms, original brewery in Sydney.
00:09:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think so. And so, yeah, like I said, it's very sad, like the incubators held many good nights over the years. But yeah, formally say the fixation brand will continue. We'll have more, I guess, news once they have a closing date for the brewery, you can still go in there now and drink some delicious IPAs. And if there's a closing party, obviously, we'll share that. But yeah, figured we'd best squeeze that in before we get back to Tom and the rest of the chat.
00:09:32
Speaker
Yeah, it doesn't really impact the chat at all. So we'll get straight back into it. Enjoy. Nice one. Cheers.
00:09:44
Speaker
All right, welcome back. Tom, we thought we'd have a bit of a chat to you. A few weeks ago, you moved on from Fixation before starting the new role Get To. So what's the story behind
Tom Delmont's Departure from Fixation Brewing
00:09:54
Speaker
that? You were with Fixation obviously from the Stark co-founder for about eight years, was it? Yeah, so yeah, almost nine years, I guess, eight and a half, nine. So yeah, it was
00:10:03
Speaker
Time, I guess, you know, it was pretty well known that ownership had changed back in 2021. And as part of the fermentum sale to the broader line business, integration was done. I had, you know, new leaders in the business and it was the right time to look at other options. And they were also looking at restructure within their broader team and marketing teams. And my job had gone from being, I guess, a bit of
00:10:31
Speaker
everything Mr Mr Mr sales, a bit of logistics, bit of production planning and getting involved in that sort of thing, new products, delivery man, you know, cleaning the dunnies, everything to really just a more
00:10:47
Speaker
concentrated brand management sort of role which you know for a smaller brand doesn't always make sense you need to be doing lots of other things in the mix so when you're in a smaller business that makes sense when you've got every every hat on so so it's the right time to to you know bow out and say you know thanks so much guys it's it's look after the pot plant give it some water every now and then and fertilizer and keep it alive
00:11:12
Speaker
And I guess, you know, I guess the nature of the role would have changed. I mean, I was chatting to you early on after the sale to Lion, you were like, oh, when we wanted to do a limited release, a big case will go, okay, here's the beer style, here's the name, bring in one of your, you know, graphic designer mates or your artist mates, put something out there, done. But then over time, it became, you know, more of a sort of process. And I guess that would have sort of changed things for you, having especially come from relatively early days of goat background as well.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah, so you can see the bigger the ship or the bigger the machine, the more systems internally there needs to be to just have checks and balances on labelling and rigor around ingredients and all of those kind of details that
00:11:57
Speaker
Yeah, when you're, I guess, a small, see-the-pants craft brewer and you're making lots of interesting, you know, new products all the time, you know, those kind of details are often just, you know, yeah, you run it past quality team and you get input, but you don't always have the same kind of internal system. So I guess there certainly are a lot of elements that change as you, you know, work with a much bigger ship. And that's one of the reasons, I guess, those bigger beasts, you know, take so long to turn and change tact and change direction is that it is,
00:12:27
Speaker
like changing 2,500 people rather than talking to three or four and going, let's do this. So yeah, it's certainly a different evolution for the brands and the Fermentum Group and I guess also back in the Asahi days with Mountain Goat as well. But it's just part of the, I guess the diverse fabric of craft beer that we live in now, isn't it, Joe?
00:12:54
Speaker
and tell them like how does it feel sort of being outside it because you were so I guess connected to that fixation IPA like it did really feel like your baby even though you're not a brewer like it must be weird sort of even just seeing it on the shelf or seeing it in pubs and drinking it now after being with it for so long. Yeah I still enjoy a part of the Town Hall Hotel regularly but I think um
00:13:16
Speaker
uh it was something we were so um yeah close to i guess we knew everything about the beer we opened every bag of malt in the early days and be up in you know the brewery all the time annoying um the guys who are actually working in the brewery regularly um i think uh it's it's it's i think it's something that you just go well it's uh part of my life but it's not who i am like working life and what you create and these kind of things are
00:13:45
Speaker
you I guess they're just sort of something that you like the Crafty Pines, James and Will. It's not, it's something you do but it's not all that you are as people.
00:13:56
Speaker
My wife might just think that. I think a lot of burritos might want to take that on. Yeah, I guess like you've got to look at it as a stage in your life, like even the mountain goat stage as well and just go, right, that was a great eight years. This is another period and now it's sort of what's next. But something that, you know, while there are benefits that you still get to go and enjoy the beer or, you know, fly the flag and wear the t-shirt every now and then, it's nice to still have that, yeah, that great period of time.
00:14:24
Speaker
And it's good to see Fixation appears to still be part of Lion's plans, a lot of the craft brands that have been part of their wider operation. I guess the brew operations they created themselves, like Humundah, I think, has now been sold to the different owners up there. Same with Tiny Mountain. Bevy's become little creatures. Two birds was closed down. But Fixation seems to be still part of the future.
00:14:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's certainly up to the broader business and these little things within their wheelhouse, they're not the most important part of these larger operations. I'd better just hide it. We're not here. Yeah, I guess. And that's probably what my strategy was for the first few years.
00:15:11
Speaker
I think it's a complicated story and what their business plans are for the future. There's RTDs, there's spirits, there's on tap cocktails, all kinds of things that are...
00:15:24
Speaker
outside of beer and then outside of alcohol. So if they're focusing on certain areas, it certainly, you know, it might change where their priorities are. But I think, you know, the ferment and family of businesses, there's some really great brands in the mix. And, you know, it sort of depends on, you
00:15:43
Speaker
you know, where they see the future, it's certainly one thing you learn in the, you know, in big game running a business is, you know, when you don't have that, the keys anymore and the stress of, you know, the alarms going off at 3am and, you know, there's a, there's, we've run out of kegs and all of those kinds of things and it's not your baby and you just need to realise that, you know, that's just, it's now someone else's call, someone else's poplar.
00:16:10
Speaker
I mean just think of this early before and you came over is that is there a you know potentially more opportunity for smaller sort of independent breweries if the big you know the bigger breweries have come in they've either created their own brands they've started making craftier beers or they've acquired some of the you know the most successful brands whether it is you know Fermentum Group or whether it's Asahi with Pirate Life and Four Pines and Boulter if they sort of got you know what
00:16:36
Speaker
that sort of you know obviously the rapid growth in the market stopped it's certainly dropped away it's you know whether it's stalled and it'll start again or whatever because they're looking at a broader picture might you know is there a possibility to go you know what we can't put that much attention onto the craft space anymore and over time once the economy writes up or whatever may that open the door again you know for smaller indeed brewers to come in again do you think
00:16:59
Speaker
probably thinking a bit too far ahead but you know yeah i think there's always going to be a strong you know place for good beer and and what we've done over the last you know 17 years for me or people like Blair Hayden much longer have actually you know forced this wedge of good beer to be a much larger percentage as a total of the market um and and i think there's still room to innovate and find big
00:17:22
Speaker
brands and big growth within craft beer, as such, or whatever you call it, good beer, whatever. But I think it's certainly, it's harder to see a lot more, you know, mountain goats and bolters and stone and woods coming from, you know, what is essentially a couple of buddies and a couple hundred grand in a shed to, you know, 20 million litre brand. Those days might be, you know,
00:17:51
Speaker
less and less prevalent. But I think there's always going to be winners. You look at what Heineken have done with Beavertown. It's massive now. It's in almost every pub. You look at some of the big craft brewers in the States that have started to invest in other little businesses adjacent or across from beer. So it could be in different beverages, could be in different products. But I think there's always going to be a strong place for
00:18:15
Speaker
you know, for good brands that are well run that think about the whole wheel around their breweries, the community, the employees, the drinkers, the customers. But I think it's certainly, you know, that
00:18:28
Speaker
crazy 20 years you know that's you know that's that's certainly it seems like it's it's flattened out yeah for sure yeah it's a tough one because i guess part of the battle was always to get people to drink beer that's made closer to home and now we're almost more successful at that arguably because there's so many small breweries but when you look larger than that it's it's really those that are struggling the most as well
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah and I think yeah that middle ground and that's what we saw I guess in the states with those regional breweries you know the ones that were in say five to ten states but not necessarily the Sam Adams Sierras and not necessarily the hyper local tap rooms as well so there's probably that's that's a tricky spot to be in especially if you're not on a really strong footing and trying to be a national brand in Australia which is just that much smaller but also
00:19:17
Speaker
now we can get a good beer in Port Lincoln. You can get a good beer in Alice Springs. You can get a good beer in Barnes.
00:19:24
Speaker
I guess did we set out to achieve what we set out to? I think so. I guess the goal was maybe shift over time but ultimately if you wanted to give people the ability to find a tasty beer that wasn't just you know a VP or whatever then that has been achieved by either producing stuff on an indie level or getting the bigger guys to
00:19:49
Speaker
to produce those sort of beers as well. And I think there is still great, there are some great national brands that, you know, you can get one at the airport or on a plane or whatever, but I think there's still, you know, there are these, there's going to be these hyper-local success stories as well. So I think we've got to remember there's still a lot of winners in this. It's just, would you be putting your family's future on the line right now to invest in a brewery? That would be a risky move.
00:20:15
Speaker
And talking of post-fixation, when you first gave me a calling on your way either to or from Byron after the meeting, and she let me know what had
Tom's New Role at Zaviro: Focus on Sustainability
00:20:24
Speaker
happened. And you said, I'll probably take a few weeks off, maybe a few months off, and might step away from beer. But very quickly, you're still in beer, but in a very different role. Do you want to tell us what you're up to these days? Yeah, I will. Yeah, Severe. So I managed to connect with the team through a friend and colleague, Gary Hastings. And he was helping advise the team.
00:20:44
Speaker
I realised, well, this is adjacent to beer. I get to take, I guess, a bit of a bird's eye view of the industry, but also work with a lot of my mates in good breweries. It was funny, I'd happened to have been handed a can in London in April when I took my family for the first visit there to see their little cousin. And they had a can of daya into the haze and I looked at the can and I even took photos of all three sides of the
00:21:08
Speaker
the panel and on the panel was the greenhouse gas emissions per litre tracked by Zaviro QR code and all this stuff I've never seen it and two months later we were chatting so it was a pretty uh I guess uh unexpected you know term of events but also um it's a part-time
00:21:26
Speaker
helping to introduce a really good product to the industry in Australia. So it still allows me to, I guess, step back from, you know, day to day, 40, 50 plus hours, thinking nothing, but I'd be able to do a bit, but also seeing the brands that are really looking at
00:21:45
Speaker
the environmental side of the business and sustainability which are often the I guess the more strategic brands in a sense where they are considering those kind of things that they're a part of their brand story then that these the guys I'm starting to reach out to now and also you know people are starting to reach out to us as well which is great.
00:22:06
Speaker
So Tommy, with what Zaviro does, we've already written about it, so readers who want to know more about its product and carbon accounting can check out the article in the show notes, but just briefly, I mean, how do you sort of define what it is? Yeah, it's a carbon emissions tracking platform that brings together all the scope one, two, and three emissions, especially targeted brewers. And given now that guys have worked with a lot of breweries overseas and they have a lot of data sets, they can pretty quickly integrate with the customers or the breweries
00:22:35
Speaker
like resource planning software, so if they're working with Unleash, that kind of thing. But essentially it's a way to track over time carbon emissions and it gets down to per litre or per hectoliter rate, so then you can start to make really good sustainability calls over time and improve and get advice from the Zavira team on that. So it's an integrated solution, services and a platform that then tracks over time. So it's something that we think will really benefit both
00:23:00
Speaker
drinkers, big customers that are starting to look at suppliers and say, hey, what are you doing in this space? But also it's getting ahead of the curve before the I guess the government will eventually say, what are you doing? How are we going to hit these these goals for 2030 and beyond? So we want to leave the planet in a better place than when we found it. And also, I think good beer is somewhere that's always led the way in a lot of ways.
00:23:25
Speaker
and a lot of initiatives. We're now saying, you know, the good grain initiative, the regen grain, those kind of things. So I think it's, yeah, it flies into that perfectly. Yeah. And does it sort of, is there a bit of a call back to your sort of pre-beer days as well, to an extent, you know? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, hippie punk rocker. Yeah, I guess I studied environmental science. I was very passionate about the natural world and still am, and yeah, majored in entomology, ended up in a science role for the federal government.
00:23:52
Speaker
But then, you know, when you follow your heart, you end up in beautiful beer land and you never look back. But yeah, you know, certainly, yeah, still have a passion for the natural world. And I think, you know, anyone that has, you know, family or children, nieces, nephews, you know, wants to do the right thing by the planet. And we don't want to see, you know, irreparable damage or climate change become a real a real problem post our time.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess talking about getting into the beer world, I reckon that's where we'll start up again, also had another break.
From Entomology to Beer: Tom's Career Transition
00:24:24
Speaker
Having a chat to you about how you did switch from entomology into beer and then some, I guess, a bit of some insights from you on selling beer, building a brand, that kind of stuff as well would be great. So, awesome. All right. Cheers. Cheers.
00:24:43
Speaker
G'day listeners, Will here. We are just a couple of days away from Blackmansbury's Point Break Invitational. And you know that means that for the final time, not for the final time ever, for the final time at the moment, I'm joined by the Bellarine Peninsula's own Milo Apple Wagon. Milo, welcome back to the Crafty Pine Podcast.
00:25:05
Speaker
Thank you, William. It is so wonderful to hear your dulcet tones again. And as you mentioned, we're here, of course, to talk about the Blackmansbury Point Break Brewery Invitational. Torquay's first ever beer festival hosted by these wonderful people at Blackmans.
00:25:22
Speaker
Now, I believe they've invited nine of their favorite breweries to attend the event. And for one very affordable ticket price, I might add, you can sample up to 20 beer tasters, all included as part of your ticket, in your very own festival glass, which you get to keep. What could be better? Well, I'll tell you what could be better. There's live music, movies on the screen, fun and games, all sorts of shenanigans going on.
00:25:51
Speaker
It's really going to be an event not to be missed. Now with the movie theme we've got yourself and myself over the last few weeks we've really been playing with the idea of movie and beer pairing and we're here today to discuss what could be the last one of the series. William what beer have you got for us today?
00:26:10
Speaker
Well Milo, I thought what better way to end this series than by picking a beer from the brewery themselves. I've got Blackman's Breweries Hang 10. It's their birthday beer, as you mentioned, they're 10 years old and they've celebrated with a brand new IPA that has 10 separate hop additions throughout the brewing process and it doesn't get much better than that. Sounds wonderful Will, let's give it a try. Let's give it a try.
00:26:36
Speaker
Oh, whoa, William, that is just sensational. A real showstopper of a beer right there. Wow. That's a beer that makes you want to skip work and seize the moment. It's a grand parade down Main Street. It's
00:26:54
Speaker
fancy restaurants and fine art, it's sticking it to the man while you're hurtling down the highway in a 1961 Ferrari GT 250, one of only a hundred ever made, mind you, then driving it home backwards to hide the mileage. Life moves pretty fast and if you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. William, this beer is Ferris Bueller's Day Off in a can. Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
00:27:23
Speaker
So now it's over to you, dear listener, if you're ready to seize the moment to car-pay DM and to release your inner bueller at the Blackmans Brewery, get down to the Blackmans Brewery Point Break Invitational. It's all happening this Saturday at Blackmans in Torquay and tickets are still available, I believe, at blackmansbrewery.com.au. Don't you miss it. Cheers. Cheers.
00:27:53
Speaker
And welcome back to the Crafty Point Podcast. Tom, I'd love to hear a bit about how you actually connected with the crafty industry as someone who, what did you actually do with insects? I was identifying them well. I was looking at them through a microscope and collecting them. I was studying Chinese beetles that had gone to America. I was collecting mosquitoes at the airport and seaport. It was, you know, a whole different world. But essentially I grew up in Adelaide, was already
00:28:23
Speaker
enjoying Cooper's ales and had found this sort of movement starting to bubble away in Melbourne. We moved over in 03. The first bar I walked into saw this tap, didn't know what it was, turned out to be mountain goat hightail. I quickly discovered creatures' pale ale and thought this has got to start to be a thing and I believe that this will
00:28:48
Speaker
eventually take off. Didn't know to the extent that it might, but I really followed my heart and went, okay, I've just got to go to these breweries, I've got to visit. So it took me two years before I even went to Mountain Goat. Finally rode my bike down there, rang everyone on you and said, you've got to come down here right now and have a beer with me. And then probably another two years later, there was a job advertised for a 30 hours a week on-road salesperson, on-road goat. And
00:29:15
Speaker
I was told to settle down, don't resign just yet. You know, you've got a good job there. You know, everyone, everything your grandmother would tell you to do. Keeping Australia safe. Yeah, you've got a good job for life here with the federal government. And I couldn't, you know, jump at the job quick enough. So, went in.
00:29:36
Speaker
I think in my quarantine uniform from the airport, said, well, you know, I'm just going to be the nicest pain in the ass to every publican in Melbourne, bar owner. And even if you don't give me the job, you can't stop me drinking. He said, this guy's crazy, but he doesn't have
00:29:56
Speaker
any brief conceived notions about who's a bit of a dick out there and who's a bit of an asshole to deal with and who hates this guy and that person there. It's more just like, let's just be a good person at building relationships and then getting people enthusiastic about this product that's better.
00:30:16
Speaker
And that was essentially how I started in the b-world. Cam and Dave apparently bounced back in the office and said, we've found the guy. And that was what I did for the next eight years really representing Mountain Goat.
00:30:27
Speaker
selling the beer and talking about the beer. You're an eight year cycle man. Eight years, pretty much. And in terms of how far and wide had Cam and Dave got their beer in terms of, I guess there would have been very little bottles out around the city, but in terms of taps, you know, were they in many venues when you stepped in? I think we had
00:30:46
Speaker
uh 30 venues when i started and uh i think there was different formats there were even different bottle shapes and sizes on the shelves because there wasn't always the same craft bottle available so there was even i remember my wife girlfriend at the time bought me a mixed you know a slab of mountain goat and they happened to be mixed packaging because there were different
00:31:09
Speaker
packaging out there on the shelf. So it was pretty early days and small volumes. I wouldn't be sure of what kind of volume, maybe one or 200,000 litres, something like that, per annum. And there was about six people, I think, in the business, maybe five or six full-time people. And yeah, just fast forward to 600, 700 TAP accounts and
00:31:33
Speaker
and then obviously then Asahi took it to another level with goat beer and the mainstream sort of there was always that I guess that heritage brand that sort of cool modern craft cool brand but then to make it a heritage look and bring out a beer that's much cheaper that sort of really then took it to a different audience.
00:31:54
Speaker
Tommy, so in those early days you've got this vehicle, the Hytale, it's got hops, it's got malt, it's kind of probably not like much a lot of these pubs you're going into had really experienced. Can you explain like what it was sort of like having those early conversations where you're pushing this product that people probably didn't know anything about and I mean I imagine that's changed a whole lot with Fixation. But you're exactly right, there's a dark hoppy
00:32:23
Speaker
amber ale, four and a half percent wacky label, wacky beer, wacky maroma. And they would just, sometimes they would just say, this is just not going to work, buddy. You know, and I'd take that as a, right. So you're going to see me another five or six times and eventually you'll say, okay, mate, we'll give this a go. But that persistence and I guess a bit of resilience or whatever you want to say, thick skin,
00:32:52
Speaker
you have to still have that and probably now even more so. And that determination to get in there, there was only probably one or two pubs that actually said get the out of my pub and subsequently a year or two later those same
00:33:08
Speaker
you know so i was rang back and wanting to be so you know and often that was then by the time would probably change that had steamer or something that was a little bit easier and easier to you know i guess visually on for drinkers but also a little bit easier to knock back but um
00:33:24
Speaker
I think that kind of approach, it's still relationships, it's still trust, it's still working with independent venues, bars, restaurants, bottle shops, independent retailers. A lot of the breweries that are out there now, they do say that there's this race to the bottom on kegs and there's this house lager approach or house beer where if you're not
00:33:48
Speaker
offering $200 kegs, then you're not getting a tap and these kind of things. But there was always someone prepared to do that even in 2007. It just was a different name on that. And, you know, and some of the big guys still do that with a house beer. It's probably not to that.
00:34:05
Speaker
pricing, but there's always been someone that will race to the bottom. I don't think that is the only way to sell beer. We've never done that across the businesses that I've been involved in. They've been pretty successful. Yeah, they've done well. We've sold beer based on our brands that are worth
00:34:25
Speaker
painful though and the consumer was and the drinkers were always happy to buy the beer because it was better and it wasn't every drinker you know even in the GB days of the you know the snake pit prince of what you know down around those kind of first few the Napier the first few pubs that were pouring mountain goat it wasn't a large percentage of the drinkers walking in there going I'll have a mountain goat but it was just that that you know five percent which is what you need for to build a great niche
00:34:52
Speaker
brand that then can grow from something you need that early adopter and that toe hold in the market and once you've and you and you have to do that by actually standing then you know once you get that tap on which you might only get the first two kegs and that's the hardest people go oh cool I've got the tap on no no the hardest part is then making it pull through the the tap and sell and get into people's hands and so then I'd stand there
00:35:16
Speaker
I can buy a lot of beer. I can dickhead. And I'll be like, sorry, I'll be home late tonight. I've got a new pub and I'll be there handing pots to people to taste the beer or even just a little tasting glass. And you know, you just have to deal with a lot of punters that go, oh, not for me mate. And then other people will say, well, free beer.
00:35:37
Speaker
What's the worst going to happen? Then they discover, oh, wow, there is other flavors in beer. There is this whole tasty world of good beer. And you think about it. And I've always described it like we did back in the Mountain Go days, where it's like, well, you know, people eat baguettes and sourdough and rye bread and, you know, seedy.
00:35:56
Speaker
bread and they're not just eating tiptop white bread and is that what you want to do with beer your whole life? Well for me that was never part of the story so that was how I would try and talk about it with these drinkers that would go well now we're going to go and spend plenty on a bottle of wine. Why wouldn't you have a good beer if beer's not just beer and it was to that previous generation and I guess now we're seeing this challenge where
00:36:23
Speaker
We've had great beer for 10, 20 years, and now we've got to worry about how do we appeal to the next generation so we don't become dad craft, which was a term I coined in a meeting years ago, which was the risk when you saw things like Squires and some of the brands that were more established going into that next generation. How do you make sure that you're innovating and appealing to the younger drinkers, Gen Zs and those kinds of things that are coming through?
00:36:49
Speaker
that are not yet picking up beer. At least until those older brands become cool because they're heritage again. Do you think there's still value in that approach today to breweries or to reps? I guess there must be because you still see free tastings like going in and maybe handing out some stuff at the bar or go around with a jug and saying hey do you want to try this beer or have most people
00:37:13
Speaker
Do you think more people have tried something different and made up their minds already?
Building the Fixation IPA Brand
00:37:17
Speaker
No, I don't think anyone, I call it beer miscuous. They're not very loyal within good beer land. And if someone's there and is authentic, you know, it gives a crap about the product they're putting in someone's hand or a tasting and they have a really good interaction. People remember that. They never forget that, you know, when someone's walking into a bottle shop and I'd see this guy and he's worked all week and I'm like, free beer, mate. And he'd be like,
00:37:42
Speaker
You've got me. And then they'd have a chat and you'd open and engage that way. And then all of a sudden they're grabbing, they might still be getting their four pack of RTDs or their six pack of.
00:37:54
Speaker
you know, mainstream lager, but then they're going out with a six-pack or, you know, stone wood or a fixie or whatever, and they've at least got a few in the fridge for when they go, wow, okay, that tastes different and hopefully a bit better. And then eventually that, you know, becomes part of that basket that they're shopping for occasionally. Was it different sort of with, I guess with Mountain Goat, the brand was there and you were helping get, I guess, to be out into a wider market.
00:38:23
Speaker
What was it like then starting from scratch with the Stone and Wood founders and yourself with Fixation and going, right, we're going to build an IPA brand? You were coming in right at ground level there. What was it like there in terms of doing everything from scratch and having to sort of guide not just getting beer into venues, but actually the whole concept?
00:38:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, I should add the the GOAT days. I actually got to represent GOAT in the Hong Kong Beer Festival and all these faraway places, beer varnish a few times in New Zealand, but even standing in a bottle shop in Los Angeles and Long Beach and San Diego pouring double hightail and RIPA, labeled Australian Parlor, back then, which was like such a wacky, you know, concept. But because there was an export deal done, we got to do that. But I'm
00:39:11
Speaker
But yeah, fast forward to the start of Fixie. I was lucky to be working with, you know, whom I considered as some of the smarter guys in the business that have been around beer for minimum 15 up to 30 years each.
00:39:25
Speaker
and worked in the big boys, but also had a great business already ticking along. And then for us to create a little niche brand from scratch, I remember waking up the first day after going, yep, let's start this, I'm on board for sure. I went, okay, here's the first 10 pups and all 10 I got on board.
00:39:46
Speaker
So we had a tow hold straight away, you know. Did you tell them what you were pouring or you just said, I'm doing a thing by my beer? I wasn't even able to tell them the name of the beer. I think I was able to say I was going to be an IPA of some sort. I didn't know the exact ABV yet. I didn't know the price. I wasn't able to tap went on the Great Northern with just IPA and no branding around it. Yeah. But I didn't know any details, but I just said I need you to just
00:40:14
Speaker
give us a crack with this new thing we're starting. And I got all 10 of those said yes, which was awesome. You know, the guy that rainbow and the old bar, great people and friends that, you know, these are the relationships that you rely on when you, you know, you build them over time with the previous role and then, you know, you try and continually add value and give them something different. And I guess with that, the IPA, the product is still the main thing, right? You know, you can do the branding and distribution and
00:40:43
Speaker
you know, try and look after people in the bottle shops and this and that, but if the product's shit, no one's really gonna care, but because we made sure we were using, you know, the best malts, the best, you know, Yakima Chief hops for that style of beer.
00:40:58
Speaker
It's all American hops. We're using fresh yeast every time and just trying to dial in, only making 70 or 80 kegs each time. No bottles, no cans, just kegs. Straight in a cold truck, straight to the pub. So it was a great way to start. And I think the right way to start, really. I think people that start with pack and keg and you're trying to do everything and trying to build a presence in trade and
00:41:25
Speaker
do both channels and all of this sort of stuff. That's when you're just trying to do too much at once.
00:41:32
Speaker
Well, I guess for an IPA brand, even, you know, you weren't putting out many, like the limited releases that hit PAC, there was kind of, you know, there'd be a fair bit of trial in market first, like Squish, that went out on tap a few times before Squish cans came out. And I guess maybe seeing that with some more breweries now, as the market has sort of flattened, sort of going, you know what, maybe we don't need to put as many singles out, was that always part of the plan? Did you get caught up in the, let's put a ton of limited releases out during COVID, for example, or was there a bit more of a,
00:42:00
Speaker
this is not how you do it kind of approach. Well generally speaking no we didn't do any more than sort of you know three to four seasonals per year but in COVID crazy times we did use the incubator as a packaging hall and logistics center and I was delivering beer along with our team and we kept our team busy but also it kept the brewery operational as well because otherwise that was set up to just
00:42:26
Speaker
sell beer through the tasting room. So that was a way to actually keep that ticking along and packaging beer. So yeah, there was probably 40 or so limited done in that, you know, six lockdowns. But often it was beer in tank and we're like, there's half a tank here. We don't want to just sit here twiddling our thumbs. Hoping someone walks past with their pram on Smith Street and we give them a growl. So, you know, which we were doing a lot of that, but it was a way to also keep
00:42:54
Speaker
you know, keep being moving through the brewery. So I mean, what are your sort of views on this scheme again that we've been talking about for years? It definitely has dialed back on the current market, but as someone who was involved with GOAT and really, I think building up a core range and then went so hard on a flagship like Fixation IPA, I mean, was he sort of read on it?
00:43:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think we talk, I first heard a scheme again probably 10 years ago, I think in the States or something. And I guess Australia then had its own breweries that sort of, you know, that was their strategy to build a name and you still see some of them going really well, which is cool.
00:43:33
Speaker
Some of them are now bringing in core range beers later in the piece after a few years of doing nothing but, you know, limiteds. I think it's my thoughts have always been to build a core following for your core beers because there's an element to beer drinkers and
00:43:54
Speaker
and beer and what it provides is hopefully a really consistently good refreshing experience regularly and often that becomes people's favourite drink, right, their favourite choice of beer. And if you keep going, well, now we've got this blueberry one and next week we've got, you know, wacky pineapple agave, whatever. That's hard to build
00:44:16
Speaker
following an attraction. And we live in this amazing beer world where everyone's drinking those. But really, if you look at the most drinkers, they're not picking up a $15 or $20 can at all, even during COVID. So I think that's where you can easily fall into the trap of thinking that, well, everyone wants every limited. Why wouldn't you buy the 12% pineapple pancake sour?
00:44:41
Speaker
because, you know, people want a six pack of really good beer when they go home on Friday and they want it to deliver each time. And if it's a delicious, hoppy, balanced IPA, or if it's a really nice, you know, balanced summer ale, or, you know, whatever, even a good craft lago, like Ratman, awesome.
00:45:00
Speaker
that's still a really big element to view. And I think that's the sessionability and the social ability a bit. So I think that's where I think, yeah, the scheme again and going up our own ass a bit, whatever you want to call it, it just got a bit out of hand. And I think it's certainly, it's simmered down a lot now and probably to a more sustainable, but even we'd only ever do three or four a year in terms of normal trading.
00:45:24
Speaker
Yeah in terms of I guess one of the big sort of discussion points ongoing you know is the challenges facing I guess the whole industry struggling there's been a lot of cutbacks you know line on the last couple of years changes at Asahi as well but you know I guess with I guess even more closure of VA's at the in the side of the industry now as someone who I mean
00:45:45
Speaker
when goat sold to a certain side that was a pretty emotional time for you like you know you'd suddenly you know you could want to work with them anymore because they weren't independent.
The Importance of Independence in Beer
00:45:55
Speaker
You had been brainstorming the idea for a brew pub called independent I believe at the time and then you know obviously when stone and wood went for momentum sold you know decided to stay on with fixation for a while longer. Where do you see the sort of the importance or the relevance of independence within the beer industry these days?
00:46:12
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's a lot in that question and preamble, I guess. Certainly in that time, I did see the little guys as part of the story to the brands that we were building. And I think that was, that was fundamentally what it was born out of, right? Like I saw Bootsy said it was about offering diversity of choice, but I think it was also, yeah, just putting something better in people's hands that tasted better. And then that mission I think was accomplished
00:46:42
Speaker
whatever time, whatever date it was, but I think that was accomplished. So now it's certainly independent independence. It's certainly a valuable thing to hang your hat on. And my heart bleeds for the guys that are really struggling at the moment and going through really tough times or a VA process or some of them not coming out of it at all, especially to put everything on the line to build these amazing breweries and tasting rooms and given a lot to the experiences that they've provided for people.
00:47:12
Speaker
I think that the hard thing will be whether the consumer that as they and the markets matured sees independence as something that they're only going to shop on. And I think it's now just it has to be on good local fresh beer and brands that mean something that give that
00:47:33
Speaker
consumer something, whether it be part of the brand story. Some of them are just more lifestyle brands that are perfect six pack at the beach beers. But there can still be a craft brand or a good brand, but there's
00:47:45
Speaker
The independence now is harder to hang your hat on as a selling point because the big guys have a lot of good beer in the portfolios and their pubs. And so a lot of those beers that people pick up, they see them as craft beer, even though they're not independent. And I don't think they care. And that's the hard thing that I had to learn as well after 17 years is a lot of the consumers
00:48:13
Speaker
they just didn't care. And we live in this awesome world. Don't forget, we live in this awesome world where everyone cares and everyone knows about who owns what. But the 99% of people that go into the bottle shop do not care. And that's the hard thing is trying to work out, okay, do we focus on local? Do we focus on freshness? Do we focus on, you know, the family behind the bar that's running the venue, those kinds of stories.
00:48:36
Speaker
I guess another industry where there's often discussion about the role of independence or the independence, whether it's venues or bands or labels, struggling is the world of music. I know that's been a very big part of your life as well. I was keen to sort of pick your brains about sort of the relationship between beer and music. I mean, you've had musicians from bands work for you at Fixation. One of the guys from the Bennies was there. You've done collabs with punk musicians. We've talked in the past about, you know,
00:49:05
Speaker
getting the right music sort of in a venue. I mean, what's your sort of take on that as someone who is, you know, goes as many gigs as they can and sort of just tried to involve that in beer as well? Yeah, I think it's those relationships have to come from an authentic base.
00:49:20
Speaker
often it would be with the melancholy examples reaching out to Nicola because we knew he was then a qualified brewer and he was coming to town to play some shows and there was a couple of other people in the craft beer world that reached out as well and he's made a beer with you know with us and Matthias and a couple of other someone else as well I think but um it was awesome that um yeah he spent the whole day with us made a really good beer informed the recipe we changed you know
00:49:47
Speaker
changed quite a lot around his feedback and what he wanted to do on the day and then the Smithies, the Smith Street Band, that was also some buddies and they were headlining, asked to headline a beer fest and as the headline band at Beer Insider and they said well there's only one brewery we'll make a beer with and it was us at Fixie so it was
00:50:08
Speaker
Those kind of things were part of, I guess, my DNA of being in around pubs. But then Mountain Gun had taught me a bit about, you know, always being connected to the good music venues. So Cam had always been, he was a music band manager beforehand, and we'd always been pretty close with the Corner Hotel and those kind of venues and the Alba. So there was always an element of live music, you know, cans and bands, you know, on the farm, those kind of things.
00:50:32
Speaker
It makes sense for you personally, but I guess is it a way of reaching a new audience or, you know, finding that sort of relevance with other people as well? Yeah, and adding on to that, I mean, you know, talking earlier about Gen Z and I'm sure there's every single brewery owner in the country wanting to know how do you reach younger beer drinkers, adult age, younger beer drinkers. Like, I mean, do you think there's a better play there or how do you sort of see it?
00:50:55
Speaker
I guess that's why some of the brands are starting with these famous people as a keeper, whether they're an ownership stake or they're the front of the brand or whatever it is.
00:51:06
Speaker
That's another way to go outside of traditional beer circles. But I think that's, for me, it was just, it was coming from a place of, you know, loving the music or loving that band and then working with them because we had a relationship or we reached out and we liked what they were doing. And they knew a bit about us. But I think for the next generation, awesome. If you can, and hopefully they have their own connections to
00:51:30
Speaker
music and artists that they like well it doesn't have to be music it could be you know some other creative arts if they've got that connection they should definitely leverage it because it does it helps you go outside that beer bubble and that's what a lot of brands struggle to do is to cross over to you know i guess more mainstream you know drink it
00:51:48
Speaker
This is one way we like to finish our interviews.
Advice for Aspiring Brewers
00:51:51
Speaker
I did remember to give you the heads up this time, which I haven't done with everyone, is the past present and future. The one thing you wish you'd known when you were starting out in beer.
00:52:05
Speaker
the one piece of advice you would give to anyone, you know, in a similar role to you now and your hope for the future of beer in Australia. Okay. Wow. I really haven't had a good think of things. One thing I wish I'd known was
00:52:24
Speaker
Just how long it was going to take to, I guess, sort out quality, consistent quality within small breweries. I think we had this rose-coloured glasses on thinking, whoa, that's pretty good. He made a good homebrew once.
00:52:38
Speaker
And then you're picking up exploding bottles off the shelves. There was definitely an element of that in the day and understanding draft quality and having issues with kegs that are sitting next to hot fans that are pumping out onto these half full kegs.
00:52:56
Speaker
Yeah, below average beer being poured so there's a lot of it learnings around the quality and handling of beer and even the distributors back then didn't have cold storage that's had a bit of a role on impact in in this sort of attitude i mean there's an article that,
00:53:13
Speaker
We contributed to in the good weekend recently and someone worked with. So if you've seen the comments online, it's just what you expect. It's this, oh, if they didn't make overpriced, terrible ad B&G, maybe there's a bit of a legacy that there was sort of inconsistent quality early on. And some people have formed opinions on that's what craft beer is.
00:53:31
Speaker
Yeah, and I think there's an element that was introducing people to craft beer and they were giving them something that was just way too different to whatever they were used to drinking. Whereas if you had gone from a measuring lager to a steamer, not straight to a 7% IPA, it's a different kettle fish. But yeah, I think that's part of those, well, if you didn't make beer that tasted like this and that, yeah, there is an element to that.
00:53:58
Speaker
So you're one sort of Tom Delmont now, you're one piece of advice for anyone sort of in the beer industry or in a similar role to what you've been doing. I would suggest that realize that this cannot just be all around beer, that you will need adjacent products or it could be some other beverages, like you look at some of the really successful ones.
00:54:21
Speaker
in the States and some of the local guys that are diversifying a bit outside of beer and just having it play with different categories. I think that's a smart move. Just, you know, no eggs all in one basket, but sort of that message to make sure you've got some other adjacent products.
00:54:41
Speaker
The other success from sight I see for the guys at the moment are opening big venues, you know, and they look at the Moondog guys, they're doing a great job with bigger venues and visitor spaces, and those punters have a great time there. They feel great about the brand going away from those venues. So there's a couple of elements to that, but I think thinking a little bit outside of just, you know, hoppy beer or wacky sour beer. Yeah, diversification. And then for the future. Yeah, what's your hope or wish?
00:55:10
Speaker
Hope for the future is that there's always, you know, there's going to be a great local brewery in every decent sized town in Australia that's making good, consistent beer. That is an alternative to a lot of the pubs. Because if you go to some of these country towns, the pubs are going to be pretty, you know, boring in the beer list. Let's just say we haven't changed some of those pubs yet. But if there's a local brewery, you know, like thinking of, you know,
00:55:36
Speaker
I keep going back to beer garden or some of those places in regional, bright brewery or somewhere awesome like that, where you can drink great fresh local beer, whether you're visiting or whether you're local, then that's a massive win for the broader Australian society and beer drinkers for sure. And you can take your families there, your friends there and
00:55:59
Speaker
It's normally a pretty wholesome experience. It's better than sitting next to some shitty pokies, right? What a note to end on. All right, Tommy, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks, guys. Cheers. Cheers. The Crafty Pint Podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, craftypint.com.
00:56:25
Speaker
and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our socials.
00:56:30
Speaker
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