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Alex Nemeth: From Running Trails to the Seven Summits
1 Plays3 seconds ago
In this inspiring episode of the UK RunChat Podcast, Michelle chats with adventurer, mountain leader, polar expedition guide, photographer, and author Alex Nemeth, the first Hungarian to complete the legendary Seven Summits challenge—climbing the highest mountain on every continent, including Mount Everest.
Alex shares the remarkable journey that took her from a marketing career in Wimbledon to summiting the world's highest peaks. Discover how a passion for photography unexpectedly led her into mountaineering, the lessons she learned from facing fear and uncertainty, and why running, cycling, and endurance training became essential tools in preparing for some of the most demanding environments on Earth.
From navigating Everest's infamous Khumbu Icefall and training in an altitude tent above 6,500 metres, to overcoming self-doubt as the only woman on several expeditions, Alex offers an honest and refreshing perspective on adventure, resilience, and personal growth.
Whether you're training for your next race, dreaming of a big challenge, or simply looking for motivation to step outside your comfort zone, this conversation is packed with insights on goal-setting, endurance, mindset, and the power of pursuing seemingly impossible dreams.
Alex also discusses her book, Beyond the Seven Summits, and shares why you don't need a mountaineering background—or even complete confidence—to achieve extraordinary things.
Topics covered:
• Climbing the Seven Summits and summiting Mount Everest
• Training for extreme endurance challenges
• The role of running and cycling in expedition preparation
• Fear of heights and overcoming limiting beliefs
• Women in adventure and endurance sports
• Altitude training and acclimatisation
• Lessons learned from success, setbacks, and the mountains
Find Alex online at Alex7Summits.com and on Instagram @alex7summits.
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Transcript
Introduction to Alex and Her Achievements
00:00:01
UKRunChat
Welcome to the UK Run Chat Podcast. I'm Michelle and today's episode is something a little bit different. Now, we often speak to runners who love the sport, people chasing PBs, doing huge running challenges, racing marathons, building their lives around running. Today's guest is Alex.
00:00:19
UKRunChat
who is an international mountain leader, polar expedition guide and photographer based in the Swiss Alps. And she moved from leafy Wimbledon to St Moritz six years ago. Now, Alex climbed the seven summits, including Mount Everest. Now, they're the highest summit on each continent. And she's she's in fact, the first Hungarian person to ever do so. What an achievement.
00:00:40
UKRunChat
um and she's written a book called Beyond the Seven Summits, which brings together these stories and lessons. So Alex joining need me today to share a more honest side of adventure and how running has actually played a huge part in her preparation for training for dangerous mountainous environments. So really excited
Alex's Early Fascination with Mountains
00:01:00
UKRunChat
to get into it. Thanks so much for coming on to the podcast today, Alex. It's really nice to meet you.
00:01:05
Alex
Michelle, thank you very much. That was an amazing introduction. Thank you Thanks. Happy to be here.
00:01:10
UKRunChat
Yeah, but so so you I am right in saying you're the first Hungarian to climb all the seven summits. Is that right? That's an amazing achievement.
00:01:19
Alex
I am, yes. um And i didn't find I didn't know about that until about halfway through the Summit Summit. So I really didn't start the challenge to, you know, chase titles or badges. or But once I found out, I think it was just, it's giving me an extra motivation ah to do finish the Summit Summit and put my tiny little country on the mountaineering map.
00:01:43
UKRunChat
so So just give us an overview of what the Seven Summits involves. And were you a a mountaineer before you took on this challenge? What kind of experience did you have?
From Marketing to Mountaineering
00:01:53
Alex
so i grew up um So I grew up in Hungary and unfortunately the ops don't quite reach into Hungary, but i i had a chance to you know go skiing when I was at school. i spent some time in the mountains and all I remember, I was always just fascinated by the mountains, like sitting on these you know buses and coaches traveling across Europe. And I just remember you every time we were in near mountains, was just absolutely fascinated, even as a young girl. Where I live is quite hilly. So I'm kind of used to, you know, living in ah in a beautiful kind of green leafy area with with lakes and we have summer houses. I kind of grew up, you know, being sporty. um And then from Hungary, I moved to the UK. And I must admit, I wasn't
00:02:42
Alex
that really into outdoor sports for, you know, for quite a few years in my 20s. I was, you know, focusing on my career and, you know, university first in my career in marketing. And it wasn't until I realized that You know, just the Monday to Friday was a little bit too much and I needed to switch off at the weekend and the switch off shouldn't be, you know, going and partying. And I wanted I was craving something more so slowly and gradually i got into kind of hiking, you know, in the Lake District, Brecon Beacons, Snowden National Park. And then.
00:03:20
Alex
um I picked up photography again. love photography. And it wasn't really until 2014 when I came up with the idea to to do a challenge. So the challenge actually was as a photographer, I wanted a project to push me as a photographer. So mountaineering wasn't really the main goal. I wanted to take some beautiful pictures. And I knew I had zero patience, you know, like with landscape photography. So this whole project started from me wanting to push myself and see if I could take nice landscape pictures.
00:03:58
Alex
So my very, very first ever thing that I did in the wintery mountains was to do a oneon one on one hill like winter mountaineering course up in Scotland for like a weekend.
00:04:10
Alex
And then I figured now I'm a mountaineer, you know, after a weekend course, I might as well do something, something big.
00:04:14
UKRunChat
Mm-hmm.
00:04:18
Alex
And that was it. So the Seven Summits was born from kind of an idea from yeah a photography angle, really.
Conquering the Seven Summits
00:04:26
Alex
And then, yeah, the rest is history, as they say.
00:04:29
Alex
Yeah.
00:04:31
UKRunChat
That's quite a leap though, Alex, if you don't mind me saying from photographing mountains to thinking I'm going to climb the the highest summit on every continent like that's that's huge. are you like I'm guessing you're that sort of adventurous person anyway, you don't mind kind of diving straight into something.
00:04:48
Alex
Yeah, absolutely. And now, you know, being an actual guide, a mountain and polar guide, I often have to think about that. That was my journey. But when I'm with my guests or when I'm arranging, you know, future expedition for my guests, I have to realize that there should be, there can be a more gradual sort of build up to the big goal.
00:05:09
Alex
Yeah.
00:05:11
UKRunChat
So where where did you start then with with the challenge? like did did you think Because I'm the sort of person who would want to, I'd need to get kind of all the experience first. And and I'm kind of a a bit of a planner, less of a less of a doer, really. I'm kind of a, I like to know I can do everything first, you know. So what where did you start?
00:05:29
Alex
and ah So I started, so that the idea was born in April 2014, and two months later, i was in the summit of the first one. And and that was Elbrus, that was Europe's highest mountain, Elbrus in the Caucasus mountains.
00:05:47
Alex
and I don't know about you, but I grew up thinking Mont Blanc was Europe's highest mountain.
00:05:51
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:05:52
Alex
and i remember coming back from Albrecht and imagine a complete whiteout in the summit, imagine storm. and As a photographer, mean I couldn't even see my teammates on the summit.
00:06:02
Alex
I'm like, what did I sign up for? since This wasn't in the contract. so It was great because the first mountain of the Seven Summits project was really, really hard.
00:06:13
Alex
you know We were there pre-season. and what Now looking back, I realized that mountain taught me so much and it taught me that, look, you know, I may not have been high altitude prepared. I may have, you know, ah the highest I had been at that point was probably the Chola Pass or Kalapatar doing a solo Everest Base Camp Gokio Lake track. in winter, as you do. and i' add that you know you learn a lot from from these first expeditions. And i never I would never underestimate a mountain or an expir expedition, but that one was really eye opener. And the way I built up climbing the Southern Summits was
00:06:58
Alex
you know require that organization they require that planning of okay let's start with the one closest to me let's figure things out and then we're going to go higher further colder and this is how i set up the this project to climb the seven summits
00:07:05
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:07:15
UKRunChat
Yeah. So to talk to us a little bit about your training for it then, Alex, in terms of your like physical and mental training.
00:07:22
Alex
Yeah, so physical was the part that I knew I was in a decent shape, you know, i knew I could run a half marathon, not very fast, but, you know, I i had that physical sort of ah training already just by living in Wilmerdon, you know, running a little bit, doing some weekend hikes. But I knew that when it comes to altitude as well and when it comes to longer expeditions, What you have to think about is not just perform on that day when the race is, but you have to be able to each and every day wake up in the morning, even sleep deprived, or you haven't eaten well, or you maybe have a, you know, a tummy bark just like feeling a little lethargic or altitude, you know, and each and every day you have to get up and and keep going. So I knew that I had to really um figure out out how to how to train in a smart and clever way working Monday to Friday and being able to do kind of long days and back to back. And I found doing ah longer runs at the weekend, I found doing double spin classes during the week really helped. I remember I was so sheepishly went into this spin class and after 45 minutes, they like, yeah, the class ended. I'm like, no, I need more. I want more. So I ended up chatting with the instructor. I said, would it be possible if I just stayed for another class? And from that moment, they knew whenever I come in, i would say for a double. um ah So yeah, it's it's all about kind of building that up. And every single mountain is so different. And the way you have to train for them is very different. But with the first one, I just didn't know.
Challenges for Women in Mountaineering
00:09:07
Alex
So I just figured, okay, I'm going to do the long back-to-back days.
00:09:11
Alex
I'm going to try to train every day, doing different things, things that I enjoy. So running and biking. So this time um and i was doing the spin classes and training for Albers back in 2014. I didn't even have a proper bike. I was just going from spin classes to spin classes and yeah and just doing short runs during the week and longer runs during the weekend. And the mental preparation, the mental side is...
00:09:40
Alex
was probably the part when I was looking into the history of Albreu's, when I tried to familiarize myself with the area, you know, how we're going to get there, what's going happen when we are where we are on expedition. And of course, each of the seven summits had a completely different team. And again, you know, these things that um somehow unfolded during the expeditions and me realizing that the biggest challenge for me personally is always going to be that feeling accepted, that being part of a team, because I've always been a low level. So I think for me, the mental challenge was to accept the fact that I'm going to meet all these new people. You know, I'm going to share it and and just kind of figure out that dynamic and and and how that would work. So that that was always something I was a little bit worried about. You know, who am I going to be with on the team? Are they going to be nice people? Are they going to accept me?
00:10:34
Alex
the person I am and a teammate I am. so that was my biggest mental challenge always.
00:10:39
UKRunChat
Yeah, and there were there were quite a few expeditions where you were the only woman, weren't there? with yeah how How was that?
00:10:47
Alex
Yeah, um that was really interesting. And i I think I'm a little bit perhaps tomboy. You know, I when my mom was pregnant with me, I shared this story on a Swarovski expedition with ah one of my teammates last week.
00:11:00
Alex
I said to her, you know, when my mom was pregnant with me and I found the letters with my dad, my dad was in the army. and And I remember reading these letters and they were talking about me as as little Tom, you know, thinking that I was going to be a boy.
00:11:15
Alex
And I didn don't know if ah it had anything to do with the bar.
00:11:17
UKRunChat
Thank you.
00:11:18
Alex
Honestly, Michelle, in all my life, everything I do, you know, um is is not thinking, hey, I'm a woman. I can't do this or that, but I'm a person and I'm just going to try it. So when I picked up photography many years ago, I worked at, you know, Formula One races. I was going to brands hatch and classic car meetings as a photographer. And again, that's not exactly a a female you know um world. but But to me, just whatever fascinates me and excites me, I'm just going to try. And to be um you know to be the only woman on this team, there were occasions when I really felt it or my team members made me feel that
00:12:06
Alex
from the beginning that, hey, you're a girl, you're probably going to be the weakest link. um So as a woman, I felt like I had to work extra hard to show them how strong I am and to show them that I deserve a spot on the team, which is crazy to think about. But in reality, we still have to do that, especially now. i Imagine I'm a mountain and polar guide.
00:12:28
Alex
Again, a very male dominated world. um so I just do it every day. But, you know, i turn up and I do my preparation, trying to be like physically and mentally strong and and and show them that, yeah, I deserve a spot on a team or or in this industry.
00:12:44
UKRunChat
Yeah, and it's important for people to see that as well. it's important for the other women to see that we we can as well, I think, that we can just go and do it and be as competitive.
00:12:55
Alex
i I completely agree with you and I follow so many female ultra runners as well. And i love love to see how competitive we are and how in ultra distances and in endurance it no longer matters that we are male or
Endurance Sports and Competitive Spirit
00:13:12
Alex
female. In fact, you might find this really interesting. So i work as ah as an expedition guide in the polar regions in Antarctica and the Arctic. And turns out that they've done research on female scientists who stay at these very, very remote um polar centers or or or camps. And it turns out that women can actually deal with the cold and dark months and kind of longer days much better than men. So it's just really interesting. And I think it's really important to talk about these things that
00:13:49
Alex
you know share that we can we absolutely can and what i found myself doing in some of the mountain bike races or the run races that i do i don't actually compete with you know i don't even look at the you know the the women women's category i look at the overall because i want to compete with with everybody who enter their race um and yeah i think that's just me and i think throughout I think now there's there's more and more female participation in you know in expeditions. um
00:14:24
Alex
you know I see more and more women climbing at high altitude. We see more and more women entering even park run to you know ultra distance racing.
00:14:35
Alex
so I think it's slowly, slowly changing yeah for the better.
00:14:38
UKRunChat
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
00:14:39
Alex
What do you think?
00:14:40
UKRunChat
And we're recording this today on the day that they've just announced the London Marathon kind of ballot entries. And there is an even split, actually, of men and women entering. So that's brilliant, isn't it
00:14:50
Alex
Yeah. yeah
00:14:52
UKRunChat
Yeah. So women women do want to be out there. You mentioned cycling there, Alex. You did a lot of cycling as well, kind of road cycling and like Tour de France stages, didn't you, as part of your training? That sounds really tough.
00:15:05
Alex
ah I did. I realized after coming back from Albrecht, I realized that the spin classes just weren't doing for me anymore. And I walked into my local bike shop in Wimbledon and I said, i'm i'm I'm ready to buy a bike. And I bought a bike and I remember I took it out for a ride and it was just something didn't quite click. I sold the bike pretty much straight away and went back to the shop and I said, okay, I want the best bike for, you know, in my budget. And I remember they I'm quite a tall person and, you know, with tall torso and they gave me like 54 and I just struggled so much. I had back pain, like back issues. um I did one of the six style races. I think it was a Brent's hatch and endurance race. And I remember winning it and I think coming like top five, like overall something else. But I had so much pain because it wasn't the right bike. It wasn't right size bike. And, you know, I went in so naive, thinking, you know, whatever, just like they recommend me. And then from that moment, you know, learning on my own skin has has been, you know, quite a quite a theme. across the seven summits, but also in my life as well. So, yeah, that bike, know, once I had a proper bike, um once I had all the like good settings, the setup, I did, you know, again, just threw myself into doing these like bigger days on the bike and joining ah cycling clubs and triathlon clubs and you know, trying out triathlon as well, the shorter distances and and riding longer distances and multi-stages.
00:16:46
Alex
And, it you know, now looking back, um it everything was helping me to the end goal. Everything was helping me to to get fit and sharp for all these expeditions and ultimately for Everest as well that I climbed in 20 years.
00:17:02
UKRunChat
Yes, it's like putting a jigsaw puzzle together, i imagine, isn't it?
00:17:05
Alex
piga Exactly.
00:17:06
Alex
And I don't know about you, but you know, when you enjoy the training, you put more of you in it. And then, you know, when you have to wake up like four or five in the morning or do an evening session after a long day at work.
00:17:06
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:17:18
Alex
But, you know, when you're putting on your favorite running shoes or you're hopping on your bike like that you love, love and enjoy doing, I think training goes so much easier and so much better as well.
00:17:30
Alex
And you are in a yeah little bit better mental state as well. That's that's what I found.
00:17:35
UKRunChat
Yeah. And so with with your running e-cycling training, were you were you focused on endurance then or were you looking at kind of climbing or sprints or what what were you looking to train there?
00:17:36
Alex
Thank you.
00:17:46
Alex
Absolutely everything. So I implemented the whole idea of what you do on an expedition. Some days you have to maybe go through some really technical sections. Some days you might be putting really long days in the mountains. So I kind of translated that into my training and into cycling and running as well.
00:18:08
Alex
So for running, I would be doing training. you know, anything from break interval sessions, like a long back to back. What I didn't realize is how it actually held my actual running and how it really started building me towards some really interesting, i fun local races that some of them I won, some of them just, you know, plays well, but I've never been fast. um So it actually proved that, you know, when you put that time into training and really focus on training, you you know, you are,
00:18:43
Alex
evolving and but developing and your muscles are getting stronger. um And then, you know, if that's your goal, then it it is a process. But but you should really look at kind of various training types and not just do one one training. I think that, again, just also comes back to the point that like that mixes things up a little bit. You know, you're not always just out there running you know, just running at the same pace and same tempo. But but, you know, a couple of days later, you could have like a, you know, sprint run or being on track. And these are I think they all contribute to to great training and great preparation. so yeah, I did. So I didn't have a coach. I didn't have a training plan, um but I looked at what I'm not good at. I looked at my strengths and weaknesses. And I figured out, okay, I'm going to continue working on my strengths, but I really have to deep dive into why am i you know, not as good in certain areas of running, cycling or doing high altitude mountaineering. And that's a very personal, you know, journey, a very personal thing to do. And I figured the only way I can do that is really like be honest with myself and really work on the things that, um,
00:20:04
Alex
i was just really not not not that good at yeah
Overcoming Personal Fears
00:20:08
UKRunChat
Yeah. So what what what were your priorities then when you started training? Because I'm guessing you were already pretty good at climbing, were you?
00:20:15
Alex
I really wasn't, especially given I have fear of heights. This project was, you know, it was on a very different level.
00:20:20
UKRunChat
do you?
00:20:24
Alex
it was It was quite challenging. And one of the mountains of the seven summits is it's a rock climb. And I was just thinking, holy walk, goka more like how am I? It's part of it. So I can't just bypass. I can't just climb something else. And I think that that's why the Seven Summits was so appealing to me is because it's not just, you know, similar height, similar looking mountains in one mountain range like in the Himalayas is like all so very different um looking mountains and shaped mountains. So this particular one that was a rock climb, I started going to
00:21:05
Alex
um an indoor climbing gym uh in kingston near wilberton and again just what i said earlier you know each mountain required a completely different um sort of approach and style and that kind of probably made me a more overall uh mountaineer i am today rather than just always being on snow or always doing the things that i love and enjoy so for example, one of the one of those mountains of Seven Summits, Carson Spearmade, I had to train differently. And again, it's just again, you know, your training looks different. Your the hours that you put in look look a little bit different because then now you're focusing on
00:21:45
Alex
okay, I'm going to have to spend more time in a climbing gym. Next weekend, I'm not going to do those long back-to-back runs. Instead, I'm going to go to do climbing outdoors and I'm going to have a a climbing instructor and I'm going to learn more from him, more from them. I'm going expose myself to the elements. Or what else I can do? I could climb the Matterhorn as a training climb and have that exposure. So um I very strategically, um like I knew what really my weaknesses were, but I was prepared and ready to you know face my fear and and and work on my weaknesses.
00:22:21
UKRunChat
Yes. Are you still scared of heights now, having done all these seven summits?
00:22:25
Alex
Oh, gosh, I'm much, much, much better. i'm i'm definitely much, much better at at heist. And I think that just shows that when you do face your fears, like one by one, it's not going to it's not going to change overnight. Right. Well, whatever it is. um But, you know, if we take that step towards trying to face our fears and. um you know, accepting that that that this is what, you know, the accepting that we have it, we can work on it, but it's just not going to stop us from doing cool things.
00:22:58
UKRunChat
Yeah, and most importantly, I think we can be scared and still do them, can't we? Yeah.
00:23:03
Alex
Yeah, what's your, what you to do to honey do you have any, Michelle?
00:23:04
UKRunChat
That's what I took out of your book, I think.
00:23:08
UKRunChat
Say again, sorry.
00:23:08
Alex
do you have Do you have any fears?
00:23:11
UKRunChat
i I'm not great with heights either, I must confess. i'm I'm okay kind of climbing up things, but as soon as I try to come down again, that's when I freeze.
00:23:20
Alex
Yeah, interesting.
00:23:20
UKRunChat
and So that's probably something I could work on if you've got any tips. Yeah.
00:23:24
Alex
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, come to the C-Subs and we can work on that for sure.
00:23:33
UKRunChat
So just just talk us through what the seven summits are then, Alex, because we've mentioned a couple of them and our Everest is obviously one of them. what Which are the others?
00:23:41
Alex
Okay, so the seven summits are the highest mountain on every continent. So let's start from, i can go in, you know, in um in the, in Northern that I climb them.
00:23:51
Alex
So Europe's yeah europero's highest mountain is Abrus.
00:23:51
UKRunChat
Yeah, sure.
00:23:55
Alex
We mentioned in Russia, in the Caucasus mountains. Next I climbed Kilimanjaro, Africa's highest mountain in Tanzania. um Then we have Vinson, Mount Vinson in Antarctica.
00:24:10
Alex
Then a Denali, Denali is North America's highest mountain in the Denali National Park. Aconcagua is South America's highest point in Argentina. And Aconcagua is actually the tallest mountain outside the Himalayas.
00:24:27
Alex
So if you if you put the Himalayas aside, ah Aconcagua, almost 7000 meters is the tallest mountain. And then we have Cautious Pyramid. Now, Cautious Pyramid is in Indonesia. And it's Oceania's highest mountain. So you have Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, and all the other islands kind of collectively forming Oceania. And it is Carson's pyramid as the highest mountain. That was the rock climb.
00:24:55
Alex
And of course, and Mount Everest in Nepal, in Asia. And I did climb it from the south side from Nepal, but you can climb it from the north side from
Climbing Everest: Trials and Triumphs
00:25:05
Alex
Tibet. So these are the seven summits.
00:25:07
UKRunChat
Yeah, wow. And you you specifically chose the south side of Everest, didn't you? Because you wanted to do, I was i was reading that chapter last night in your book and about how you wanted to to go through icefall.
00:25:19
Alex
Oh,
00:25:20
UKRunChat
And that sounds terrifying. Can you paint us a picture of the icefall as you begin to climb up Everest? Yeah.
00:25:28
Alex
Absolutely, I can. So a lot of people heard and know about maybe some of the listeners even been to Everest Base Camp. You've got very adventurous listeners. I'm pretty sure some of them would have. So when you're at Everest Base Camp, that's pretty much our home for the next kind of four to six weeks. And we do acclimatization hikes, acclimatization climbs through the Kumu Icefall. And unfortunately, historically, it's been a very, very dangerous spot on Everest. But because you're doing the acclimatization rounds each time, you have to get through. So imagine you are at the bottom of the mountain, bottom of Everest and Lhotse.
00:26:11
Alex
From base camp, when you look up, you can't even see Everest, ah the summit at at that that that spot. So you approach the icefall and the Kumbu Icefall is basically this huge glacier. And we know that glaciers are ah practically like a frozen rivers. So frozen river is something that constantly moves. and constantly changes. And so you're walking amongst giant
00:26:42
Alex
building house-sized blocks of ice. And all that ah move move or they move around you. But not only that, you've got the glacier river underneath that you can't even see, but you can hear. So it's it's like nowhere else. And I've been on so many glaciers. But but the icefall has all this broken up ice blocks. blocks and you have to navigate and find your way across. Now there are eyes for doctors who come at the beginning of the season.
00:27:15
Alex
and These are very, very highly skilled and knowledgeable and Nepali ah mountain guides or mountain people. who whose job is to come at the beginning beginning of the season and they ah make the way. So from Everest Base Camp up to the top of the ice fall, they create the route. And the way to do that is they use letters. So when you have these big cracks that formed in the ice, and that's because as the glacier moves, it starts losing its elasticity. And once it's done that, these cracks called crevasses form and and they bottomless. When I say bottomless, you look down and you can't see anything. So what they do is they, to bridge the gap, they put leathers across or, you know, whatever way the crack would be, they put leathers kind of against that crack. They secured the letters on both ends and you have to climb across these letters. It can be anything you know between 10, 15, 20, between base camp and camp one. And of course you go up to camp one, that's your acclimatization.
00:28:24
Alex
You might spend the night there and then you down climb, you come back to base camp. And then the next rotation would be going through that again, and go to Camp 1, proceed to Camp 2, maybe sleep there as well, then maybe tag Camp 3, come back, and then wait for the good weather to do this. all over again. And when you back at Camp 3, you will be sleeping there. Perhaps you would put oxygen on already. And from that moment, it's Camp 4 and the summit, Summit of Everest. So you have to go through the icefall minimum. You know, if you do these rotations, which are really, really important for our human body to be able to adapt to the high altitude. So you have to go through that a number of times. And luckily, there are other other mountains nearby that you can do the in between acclimatization rounds and hikes to keep the legs sticking over. But the more you've gone through the icefall, of course, is very dangerous and very risky. But I found myself, I don't know about you, but I found myself if something looks very intimidating the first time,
00:29:33
Alex
it's not as bad the second time and the third time. And yes, i I really, really wanted to do kumbwa. So I really wanted to feel that, you know, I wanted to feel that I'm very, very small in the mountains. And I think that feeling is is so important. You know, it's um what's the right word when suddenly you it's not it's not overwhelming. It's more like you know when you realize how small we are and and you know where where where we actually are so yeah the kumbu ice fall absolutely incredible experience except that during one of our acclimatization round there was an earthquake that damaged everything that these amazing icefall doctors built and of course imagine if it's risky for us how risky it is for for that team to you know to establish the route so they had to come back we had to wait above the icefall until we got the radio message that the route has been fixed and then we can continue descending.
00:30:03
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:30:37
Alex
So, you know, you're in the mountains, you are on your own ice and then anything can happen anytime. So um but yeah, that was that was an incredible part of the the whole journey, an incredible experience.
00:30:50
UKRunChat
Yeah. And Everest, of course, is incredibly dangerous, you know, not only because of that, but because of the death zone. And, you know, our human bodies are not designed to be that high, really, are they?
00:30:59
Alex
Thank you.
00:31:01
UKRunChat
we were you Was there ever any point where you were kind of fearful for your life in terms of like worrying about going up there? Or ah do you just have to be confident and
00:31:13
Alex
Yeah, you know, um I've never I've when I was writing the book, I was really waiting for from all my notes, you know, and and and and all the diary entries.
00:31:24
Alex
I was almost like half expecting as reading somebody else's diary entry. I'm like, what like were you nervous? Were you nervous? but And I really wasn't.
00:31:31
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:31:32
Alex
um for some reason, that wasn't one of the things that I was concerned about. um I was concerned about other other things, but but the height wasn't really that I just figured that um I've done a very, very solid training and I built up the seven summits. You know, I got to the point that, yes, I had never been to 8000 meters at that point, but i but I trusted myself. I trusted my training. And I trusted the people who were around me and who were supporting me back at base camp as well.
00:32:08
Alex
And, you know, when we even when we talk about running as well, let's say maybe like a like a longer ultra, it's not just that person running it. It's is the whole team around. It's the people around you as well on the mountain during the race. It's so very similar, actually, you know, an an ultra distance running race or run to, you to mountaineering. um And there were a couple of things that went wrong, ah completely out of my control um in the dev zone. ah So unfortunately, my Sherpa climbing partner got altitude sickness.
00:32:45
Alex
And I that's when you really learn how to. OK, it's maybe a little bit late how to learn how to problem solve, but I'm a problem solver solver. And I was like, OK, this is not going to be an issue. This is not going to be a problem. What can we do? We are right here right now. We're not going to panic. We're not going to turn around. What can we do to keep continuing? What can we do to solve solve this thing?
00:33:10
Alex
So no, the height was never really am my concern. I was actually just kidding way to be higher and higher. You know, I'm just going to say the higher you go, that the views get better. But I know it's not always the case, but but it was something I was really, really looking forward to to to progress on on that mountain and and. You know, it was what the only mountain I never Googled or researched how the summit looks, Michelle. I just wanted to be in the summit of Everest and I wanted to see that for myself. And it is ah it's a gorgeous view from there.
00:33:44
UKRunChat
How was it? Like, how do you feel at the summit of Everest?
00:33:48
Alex
Oh my God, relieved.
00:33:50
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:33:54
Alex
Honestly, relieved. um But of course, job the job is not done at the summit. A lot of people, you probably heard this, that a lot of people get into tricky situations on the way down because...
00:34:06
UKRunChat
yeah
00:34:06
Alex
You you know, people spend a lot of time. There's actually maybe something a little bit different to an ultra. When you get to finish line in an ultra, you can kind of call out, you know, have a pint of beer and then, OK, done.
00:34:19
Alex
Unfortunately, Everest, it is not until you're back at base camp where you're like, OK, you know, we we we've done it. sos it's really just kind of job half done when you're at the top because, you know, there's a long way down. There are still climbers coming up. There's one rope. Luckily, that was the last year in 2018 when there was just one rope for up and down climbing. But I think since then, there are now like kind of two rope systems in in in tricky areas. So, you know, the climb the climbing can flow better. But but it's uh i remember getting kind of very very close to the summit and i ended up climbing with my climbing partner's uncle who was on the team purely to carry oxygen for my teammates but because my climbing partner was too sick to come to the summit with me to go to go to the summit together, um the uncle kind of crawls out of the Sherpotent and then just bolts it to, ah you know, to the to the to the fixed line.
00:35:20
Alex
Like, oh, wow. I just spent the last, you know, how many weeks with Tashi training, getting to know him. And now I'm with someone who doesn't even speak, you know, we don't speak the same language.
00:35:32
Alex
And and it's really, really interesting what unfolded on that during that night, during my summit night and how you know putting my faith into him and he putting his faith into me, we managed it and we were very, very close to the summit.
00:35:46
Alex
I don't know. It's in the book. Maybe I should know. I'm going to share.
00:35:49
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:35:50
Alex
Very near the summit and we had four or five climbers in front of us and you know they were moving. they They were really, really slow. You're on one rope. They're not moving.
00:36:00
Alex
And Then they turn around and he looked into my eyes for our goggles and I knew exactly what he was gonna he was going to ask from me. And I bowed and he unclicked us from the from the fixed line.
00:36:13
Alex
And we just we have we climbed to the top of Everest, um kind of bypassing, overtaking these climbers who were moving. So that was an incredible feeling.
00:36:25
Alex
And um there were other things that went wrong that the summit night, for example, my oxygen was breaking. So at that by the point, I was quite used to not having an oxygen um as as as an aid.
00:36:42
Alex
So I took my oxygen off on the summit and were up there for about 40, 45 minutes with Dandy before before we we we went back down. But it was Yeah, I so jokingly said relief, Michelle, it really, really was a relief.
00:36:56
UKRunChat
again.
00:36:56
Alex
It was, you know, for almost four years of of journey. And it wasn't just that expedition. It was everything from the beginning, you know, from coming up with the idea, you know, talking about it to potential partners and sponsors and, you know, people supporting me at home.
00:37:18
Alex
It really was that, OK, I made it. I know I still have to get that, but I made it. and And this is how this is how it feels. And we had a beautiful Bluebird Sky Day. Just a slight breeze, just exactly enough for you to, you know, have a bit of a fresh air.
00:37:33
Alex
Who doesn't like a fresh air unit at 8,000 meters? But it was it was incredible. And then, you know, you're sitting on a summit and you can see um climbers making their way up from the pole. And you turn around, climbers coming up from the north side. um And there's nothing else is higher than you, just around.
The Role of Altitude in Training
00:37:54
Alex
And, you know, that vista, that landscape of all the six, seven, other 8,000 meter peaks around you, just absolutely breathtaking.
00:38:03
UKRunChat
Yeah, it must have been a very emotional moment indeed.
00:38:07
Alex
yes
00:38:07
UKRunChat
Now, you you had done a lot of altitude training. I think it's important to say, isn't it? yet You slept in an altitude tent for a whole month. is like that That's incredible commitment.
00:38:17
Alex
I did.
00:38:19
UKRunChat
That must have been very tough.
00:38:23
Alex
I did and I, you know, for Everest, I put all my eggs into basket. I thought this is my, you know, I submitted all mountains up until that point on my first attempt. And that was again another pressure that I put on myself. thinking, you know, I've done them on the first first attempt. And some of these mountains, you know, people go back two, three, four times like Denali. It's a very long expedition. It's it's it's tough, tough climb um ah due to weather conditions and exhaustion all that. And I, of course, if something happened, I would have returned to Everest, but I really wanted to finish the project. And I really wanted to arrive there and give the mountain the right respect and the right correct preparation. And I figured if um altitude training tent would give me that extra 5% or 10%, then I'm going to put up with that one month sleeping in ah in ah in a greenhouse. um and And I did that. and And again, just kind of looking into these things, what can help me for certain mountains and certain projects. And I realized that as much as I wanted to spend more time, you know, in the Alps, I had a job.
00:39:39
Alex
I had a full time job and I was working part time as well to pay for the expedition fee. And I figured if I just invest a little bit into this altitude tent, it might be a really good addition to my training.
00:39:52
Alex
And I had been to the altitude center in central London and doing a couple of sessions, but I wanted something a little bit more, more long, long, not long term, but something a little bit more consistent.
00:40:04
Alex
And I figured sleeping in a tent would probably give me exactly what I need.
00:40:05
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:40:09
Alex
So yeah, I had this generator and a tube that goes into, you know, so you set up a tent ah around your bed. So a tube goes in and it sucks the oxygen out of the tent, but it also repressurizes it.
00:40:25
Alex
It's, you know, trying to simulate the conditions that that you have at high altitude. And this generator itself, um it's got a chart. So you know exactly resetting what altitude you are at.
00:40:38
Alex
So I started day one was at 2200, just above 2200 meters. And every evening would set it higher and higher and higher.
00:40:48
Alex
And as you said, I slept in there for a month. And the last week of that month, I slept in my own bed Wimbledon above six and a half thousand meters.
00:41:01
UKRunChat
Wow. Yeah.
00:41:02
Alex
and And that allowed me to fly the next day from London to Kathmandu and the next day to fly from Kathmandu to Lukla, which is most of the trekking start.
00:41:02
UKRunChat
again
00:41:15
Alex
Lukla mountain town, around 2800 meters, if I remember well. And from Lukla, I took a helicopter and I met the rest of my team at a small village about 4000 meters. So I've literally we gone from you know sea level London in 72 hours. i was at 4000 meters. And the reason I did that, I had I had a very good reason behind that.
00:41:38
Alex
i skipped the first week of trekking.
00:41:42
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:41:42
Alex
I had been, um you know, as I as I mentioned before, I had been to Everest Base Camp, Gaukeo Lake. So I knew the route. I was there again a second time when I attempted to climb Amodablam.
00:41:57
Alex
And I realized that that trekking and climbing season is very, very busy. And how many people have the kubukov and carry all sorts of things that I wanted to protect myself from.
00:42:08
Alex
And I figured kind of skipping that first week of tracking that I already had done previously a number of times. Let's see if it works. And I was kind of a guinea pig figuring out if this system works.
00:42:24
Alex
Actually, believe it or not, since that company started offering Everest with pre-acclimatizing at home. I didn't realize it at the time, but I was probably doing some interesting testing.
00:42:39
Alex
But yeah, it worked out really
00:42:39
UKRunChat
Yeah, you were doing the market research for them, Alex, by the sounds of
00:42:43
Alex
well. I know.
00:42:46
Alex
I'm going
00:42:47
UKRunChat
Yeah, Trendsetter. Yeah, it obviously paid off for you, though. It obviously no, I haven't.
00:42:51
Alex
to my hospital, yeah. Have you ever done any any altitude training with a mask or in a chamber?
00:42:58
UKRunChat
I was interested reading because you you also went to the Rift Valley to do some training as well. What was that like?
00:43:04
Alex
the work
00:43:05
UKRunChat
The Rift Valley to Itten, I saying that correctly?
00:43:10
Alex
Oh, yes, the Refile E10. Yes, I did.
00:43:12
UKRunChat
yet
00:43:12
Alex
Yes, I did. um So I was at the at this Kenyan running center and it was incredible. And oh, my gosh, it it it was it was absolutely, absolutely incredible to see the Kenyans running.
00:43:26
Alex
I remember on the first day i went there with my ex-partner at the time who was training for sub-free marathon. And it was his idea to go and he asked me sheepishly if I would be maybe interested in it. was like, absolutely. This is the sort of things that I really, really, really enjoy doing. So we went there. He was obviously very much focused on ah on his marathon training and He had a couple of um ah Kenyans to to train with. And in the meantime, I was off on my own little adventure and sometimes we would run together. um But running at altitude, have you ever run at altitude?
00:44:05
UKRunChat
I've never tried it. No.
00:44:08
Alex
Michelle, it's, again, it's very, very personal because I think some people adopt much better than others. and And I need, my body needs a lot of time to adopt, I think. Either that or give my body like that shock. You know, I climbed Mont Blanc solo in 24 hours of flying out from London, you know, no acclimatization, climbed the Matterhorn without acclimatization. So I knew I could do these things, but but i I really also wanted to um test.
00:44:38
Alex
what it does to your body when you spend time at altitude and training at the very, very high level. But of course, when you, you know, when you take a look around you and you've got these canyon groups passing you and like gazelles, you know, their feet hardly touching the ground.
00:44:55
Alex
And then you can hear you're all kind of thumping around. I'm like, we are and definitely very, very different levels. but But, you know, just to take a little bit off from their ah training, etiquettes and protocols and and routines definitely enriched my own training and and and my own life. And yeah, incredible, incredible experience. yeah
00:45:18
UKRunChat
do Do you feel that, because I know we talked about how the running has helped your training for mountains, do you feel the altitude has helped your running? Is that something you've been able to test out?
00:45:29
Alex
Yes, absolutely. And now, you know, I live in St. Moritz in the Swiss Alps and I definitely feel that I'm slowly, you know, when I get back to St. Moritz from being away for a couple of weeks or months, usually when I'm, you know, my season ends, I go away and I do feel it when I go back there. i do struggle a little bit at the beginning, but I also feel when I um come down a little bit to lower altitudes that, you know, I feel a little bit better.
00:45:58
Alex
But again, we are all very different. And I know that for some people that that is an even bigger impact um and that's an even bigger change or or bonus to to train at altitude. um I haven't I personally haven't noticed a huge change. um of of that.
00:46:21
Alex
But i I did do ah something again, just, you know, a testing on on myself when I finished the seven summits project came back from Everest in May 2018. I signed up to do an ultra in the lakes.
00:46:34
Alex
And Michelle, I was just banking on my, you know, my having spent, you know, six weeks at altitude and I just banged on, hey, I'm just going to be absolutely fine.
00:46:48
Alex
And oh my gosh, I wasn't. um
00:46:51
UKRunChat
Wow. Yeah.
00:46:52
Alex
You know, you still need. And that was like months and months, months and months and months later. um But I was quite neat thinking just because in May, you know, I spent six weeks in Nepal that's going to have a positive effect a few months later. and it probably did endurance wise. the um The altitude doesn't, you know, it was worn out like it it doesn't work, you know, that that that late or for that long.
Lessons from Ultrarunning and Pursuing Dreams
00:47:19
Alex
But um But it's I think it's something that I would encourage people to maybe try out and and and test themselves because I think it could be it could be quite beneficial.
00:47:31
Alex
For sure, very strategically, um that sleeping in an altitude tent for a month absolutely worked for me. So I could start my expedition at 4,000 meters and feeling absolutely fine.
00:47:40
UKRunChat
Yes.
00:47:44
Alex
so So that kind of gap, that worked really, really well. Whether altitude training... itself would work on you know preparing for a race i personally haven't really tested but i i love the idea that it's it's there it's possible and i yeah i think i would just encourage people to um to to do all these tests and then figure out what what works for them yeah
00:48:10
UKRunChat
Yeah, everyone's an individual, aren't they? Which ultra was it that you did in the lakes, Alex?
00:48:15
Alex
It was, I think it was called the Lakes Ultra. And um I bonked like there's no tomorrow.
00:48:18
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:48:24
Alex
So I had zero nutrition plan, Michelle. I had no idea. I didn't even carry anything with me. And it was one of, it was 2018.
00:48:34
Alex
And I remember it was so incredibly hot. I really do struggle um at heat. So that that's something I know.
00:48:41
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:48:42
Alex
Again, that's one of my weaknesses. I know I really, really struggle in the heat. I just just prefer colder climates. And I really, really struggled that day.
00:48:50
UKRunChat
in
00:48:52
Alex
i hardly had any water with me. i hardly had any nutrition with me. And at the beginning when you, you know, you probably don't need that for for the first couple of deals.
00:49:03
Alex
I was up there, you know, in the top three with I think there was a professional. I think she ended up winning and I was the first female for a long time. And as my breakfast, you know, started wearing off and my breakfast bar, I just started, you know, um slowly, you know, realizing that something was really, really wrong here.
00:49:26
Alex
But again, I don't know about you, but I think we learn so much from things that went wrong.
00:49:33
UKRunChat
Yeah, we do. Yeah.
00:49:33
Alex
and And that was a very, very good eye opener for me to realize that, okay, you've gone through the seven summits and you respected all the mountains and the training. And ultra, you have to do the same. And I'm actually almost glad that that happened to me because from that moment, I realized just how much preparation It takes, you know, to to not just run because I had been doing the back to back runs, you know, Richmond Park and here and there training for the seven summits. But when it comes to racing and you you're going all out and you're running up these hills and and and mountains, that requires a very different plan planning. And I'm really glad that I kind of had had that experience because because I learned so much from it.
00:50:21
UKRunChat
Yeah, no, I'm pleased you said that because I think in this day and age with social media, it feels like everybody's doing ultras and that there's nothing to it and it's they're easy and and they're not, are they?
00:50:26
Alex
Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:32
UKRunChat
we Like you say, we do have to respect the distance.
00:50:35
Alex
Yeah.
00:50:36
UKRunChat
I'm pleased you've talked about that. Have you been back to ultra distance since that experience?
00:50:38
Alex
yeah are
00:50:41
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:50:42
Alex
Oh, gosh, no, I haven't. um But I would love to. i really, really would love to. i started so i have my ah prize for um climbing the Seven Summits and having met someone else who was into mountain biking.
00:50:58
Alex
I picked up a cross-country bike and just just like with everything else, Michelle, I threw myself into cross-country mountain biking.
00:51:05
UKRunChat
Thank you.
00:51:07
Alex
um And it was it was a you back in 2018, 2019, I had this beautiful, lightweight cross-country bike, carbon built. And I remember was thinking, OK, could just go on adventures, right?
00:51:21
Alex
I mean, I could just cross the Alps. I could just go to Patagonia and cross Patagonia on my mountain bike with my tent and all that. And I remember taking the bike into um into the the actual brand's shop.
00:51:35
Alex
And I told him that something something went wrong and I just got back from this trip. And and the mechanic looked at my bike and he goes, please don't tell me that you've done this kind of mountain, you know, two week mountain adventure on this kind of cross country racing bike. I'm like,
00:51:53
Alex
um yeah i did um so i just wanted to use that bike for for racing for training for having fun for you know going on big adventures and um um yeah so I really you know i focused on mountain biking. I became a mountain bike guide. and This is the time that I'm still working as a marketing manager in an office. and a year later A year after climbed Everest, um I quit my job. and Because I had the qualification as a mountain bike guide, i figured, okay, what else do I want to do? so I qualified as um British athletics running instructor or running leader as well. um
00:52:36
Alex
And then then I began my journey on the on the International Mantle Leader and polar guiding. But yeah, so i'm a I'm a qualified, qualified running coach. And, you know, I never i always think especially still still today in my training and and how I train others as well to always implement anything running and biking related. I realized how much these sports helped me with with the seven summits and, um you know, ha how far you can get on bikes and on your own, you know, two feet. It doesn't even have to be a race, you know, but just adventuring and and and being out there in nature. yeah.
00:53:20
Alex
Yeah, that's um that's that. I have not answered your question about picking a race or not. I think I will do one. um I'm following um i'm following ah races in the UK, I'm following races you know in in the Ops, of course, and and and over in the States as well.
00:53:42
Alex
I listen to your podcasts, I listen to ultra distance running podcasts and and trail podcasts as well. um And I'm definitely every time I listen to a podcast and listen to somebody who talks about, you know, trail running, ultra running, I'm just like, yeah, that's this still have to be on on the horizon and on on my to do list, my bucket list.
00:54:03
UKRunChat
Yeah. So what watch this space.
00:54:04
Alex
What would you recommend? You would recommend, OK, if you would have to pick an ultra race for me, what would you go for?
00:54:13
UKRunChat
Ooh, what would we go for? i think, and I know, because i'm I'm a running coach and I've got a lot of clients who are working towards the Latelyn 50 at the moment. i don't know if that's the same one that you did, and but that is quite a popular one.
00:54:25
Alex
Yeah, I think it was
00:54:29
UKRunChat
um um'm I'm personally working towards the LAP. in September, which is around Lake Windermere,
00:54:36
Alex
o Oh, wow.
00:54:38
UKRunChat
which love the sound of just circumnavigating a body of water.
00:54:41
Alex
Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:43
UKRunChat
But there's there's so many there's so many races around the UK and around you know Europe. European trail running is huge, isn't it
00:54:51
Alex
It's massive. It's booming right now. And I think it's really amazing to see this incredible sport um developing so fast. and And yeah, just going back to what you mentioned about you know men, women, just to see the participation. it may not ever be cool, you know the UTMB, for example, or or other long-distance races, but but it's definitely getting there. And i I think what what you do is incredible because you
00:55:25
Alex
you you share all these stories that you know there are people who who listen to your podcast, listen to these episodes and just that that light bulb moment, right? That, hey, that sounds amazing. Let's just try to do that. And when I listen to your podcasts and, you know, just incredible people that you um that you invite, I get inspired every single day just listening to their stories and where they have taken their running and even their background as well, where they came from and arrived and...
00:55:59
Alex
you know, what direction they they they they have taken. and I think, again, it's just mentioning that everyone's path is different. And, you know, if you start with a 5K park run just to get you off the of the couch, but you have dreams of running the UTMB one day, I, you know, you can, you people can get there.
00:56:20
Alex
And, um, it's just like, you know, climbing, uh, Ben Nevis and then one day have the dream to summit an 8,000 meter peak.
00:56:20
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:56:28
Alex
It doesn't have to be Everest, you know, not everybody has to climb Everest, but to have like a goal, a big, crazy wild dream ahead of you and, and, and work towards that and, uh, and run bike, be outdoors, you know, um,
00:56:44
Alex
eat as healthy as you can, you know, it's just, you you you just create this this life, you just create this journey for yourself. um And I think you, a lot of people probably, a lot of your listeners and and and people come on your podcast to talk, they probably mentioned this, that how many times they surprised themselves of being able to do something that they probably didn't think they they they could have achieved. And yeah, um just something I mentioned to also to my teammates on Svalbard last week that I just want to get to the end of this journey, you know, this life journey and feeling exhausted and dirty and to have as many memories and incredible experiences as we can. And that's just, as you said, there's so many races out there, so many adventures, that that that we can do. And I hope with my story, I managed to not inspire, but that's a huge word, but maybe motivate people to, you know, you don't have to have that mountaineering background. You don't have to have that endurance background. You can learn, you can practice, you can do the training and just just just get out there.
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:57:58
UKRunChat
Yeah, ah you say not inspire, but you've certainly inspired me. i' ah As I said before we started recording, I've just finished Alex's book, which is Beyond the Seven Summits. And yeah, it it put a huge smile on my face about what's actually possible, you know, when you you can have a dream and think that's impossible, but you actually set out and you've achieved it. And I think it's it's wonderful. So while while you're inspired by our guests, I'm sure our guests will be equally inspired. or our listeners, is sorry, will be equally inspired by your story today, Alex. So thank you so much for sharing it with us.
00:58:32
UKRunChat
and Where can people find you on social media if they want to know more?
00:58:36
Alex
Sure. So I'm on Instagram. i I'm active on Instagram. It's Alex7summits. Seven is with a number. So Alex7summits. My website is Alex7summits.com. And if anybody has any questions about um you know the training, the preparation, the running I've done or the training, or anything. I'm very, very approachable. All the seven summits, I'm very approachable. Drop me a message, drop me a note. And yeah, I'm very, very happy to be connecting with with your listeners. And yeah, that's it. The book is also my website. i have all the books with me. I'm here in the UK for a couple of months this summer. um coming in and going on expeditions but i have a number of books with me and every single book is hand signed by me with a personal message and i post every single book one by one myself so i just wanted to make it a very like personal experience um it's easy to kind of purchase it on my website but everything will be sent um from from where i am right now it's everymore in the cangoms in scotland
00:59:50
UKRunChat
ah Well, thank you so much, Alex. We'll put all those links in our show notes for listeners.
00:59:54
Alex
This.
00:59:55
UKRunChat
And if you enjoyed this episode, please do take a moment to share it with a friend or somebody that you run with, especially they're struggling with motivation right now. I'm sure this will give them a boost. um As always, you can join in the conversation on socials with and the UK Run Chat hashtag.
01:00:12
UKRunChat
Thank you for listening and we will see you on the next episode.