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Trevor Strong on Creativity, Humour, and Tom Lehrer's Poisoning Pigeons in the Park
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In this episode of Re-Creative, Mark and Joe talk to Trevor Strong—writer, educator, and long-standing member of the musical comedy troupe The Arrogant Worms. Trevor introduces the lads to the musical comedy gem “Poisoning Pigeons in the Park” by Tom Lehrer, a huge influence on Trevor’s own work. Trevor points out the song’s “gleeful” subversion of innocence as a template for his own (occasionally dark) repertoire.
Trevor holds a PhD in Education. For his thesis, he explored the concept of “creativity” from a historical perspective, which yielded surprising results. Trevor walks the boys through it; it turns out that creativity is really quite a modern concept.
It happens that Trevor himself is extremely creative, his work with The Arrogant Worms but a fraction of his output. His recent solo album, too many songs about cats, is a perfect example. He recorded it all in his own home, using a table as a drum and performing all the cat parts himselfs because (and we think we have this right) he was too cheap to hire a real cat.
Re-Creative is a co-production of Donovan Street Press Inc. in association with MonkeyJoy Press.
Contact us at: contact@donovanstreetpress.com
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Transcript
Nickname Discussions
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello, Mark. Smokey Joe. Oh, we're going with the nicknames tonight. Well, I don't know. I like to throw that in every once in a while. If I had that nickname, I'd want it used. Yes. Yeah. And you should go with that from now on. But did we settle on a nickname for you? And that's not my question, by the way.
00:00:25
Speaker
um My most recent one is the Squire. The Squire. Squire. Okay, in a future podcast, and I will say, hello, Squire. Hello, Squire.
Guest Participation Humor
00:00:34
Speaker
Hey, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Okay, so I forgot to explain to our guest that we chat for a little bit off the top, so I just don't want him being uncomfortable sitting there going, what? I thought I was supposed to be part of this. But we'll include him very soon. He can speak at any time. Yeah. He's like doing mime right now. But...
00:00:52
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Eventually. Yeah. We'll get to him. We'll get to, yeah. Just
Favorite Stand-Up Comics
00:00:56
Speaker
sit tight. He's freaking me out. Okay. So my question for you, Mark, and I know you normally ask the questions, but today I have a question you. and it about this Who is or has been your favorite standup comic of of all time That's a tough question. that's These are tough questions. um Just getting back at you. I got it i i i gotta to say Steve Martin.
00:01:22
Speaker
i know it's a really old, old you know deep cut, but ah his stand-up comedy really... changed the way that I thought that comedy could work. Yeah. Sorry. He's he's considered an old cut now.
00:01:33
Speaker
Well, I mean, it depends. Like that's like seventies. I was like, excuse me. You could have gone like with Lenny Bruce or somebody. Oh, that's even, yeah. that But I mean, that would have been a lie because, you know, he was dead before I was, you know, aware that there was such a thing as Lenny Bruce. So, yeah.
00:01:51
Speaker
But Steve Martin, I actually listened to when I was a kid. I had i had his albums and I was yeah i was a fan. Oh, yeah. Loved him as well. yeah How about you? Well, my guy was George Carlin.
00:02:02
Speaker
Well, that's a good one. Yeah. yeah But, okay, I'm very curious to hear who ah would be the favorite of our guests. Trevor Strong. Welcome. Okay, so I'm here now. Now we throw it to you, Trevor. Welcome. I mean, I probably would have gone with Steve Martin, but that's taken now. And then we're talking about like a lot of like what who you liked as a kid and the comic I liked as as a child can no longer be liked.
00:02:25
Speaker
ah All of his albums growing up, you know, and then ah Not cool. Yeah. Yeah. I even gave up pudding after that. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah So, ah yeah. like i would have It's strange. Like, stand-up has never been my, like...
00:02:47
Speaker
the the the style I've liked the most. So a lot of times I like the standups like Steve Martin, who are not actually classic standups in that. yeah like But began as a standup and was it amazing as a standup?
00:03:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who else? Who else? Yeah, and I'm actually reading Lenny Bruce's autobiography. Not at this very moment, but because I was... That would be weird. Yeah, it would be very weird, but I'm actually reading that, and I just read George Carlin's autobiography as well. Oh, I'm sure that's good. Yeah, because I'm always fascinated. I'm always fascinated with them talking about how they write.
Introducing Trevor Strong
00:03:25
Speaker
And George Carlin's was good because a lot of times the comics, they put out their autobiography, but they don't talk about but he talks... know if you've read it, but he talks a lot about coming up with ideas and working them and stuff like that, because that's what I'm most interested in. And he was a real writer. He loves wordplay, and that's lot of this comedy comes out. And we should introduce you fully now at this point. Trevor Strong. Trevor is a writer, an educator, musician. He's probably best known as one-third or one-fourth or one-fifth, depending on how you count it. Depending on when it was. When. Of the Arrogant Worms.
00:03:57
Speaker
yeah We've had very good one of your compatriots on the show before, Mike Prumik. We're working our way through the arrogant words. So Trevor writes songs, short stories, novels.
00:04:09
Speaker
I think you've also written a PhD, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, I've also written a PhD. Yeah. So in addition to writing, you're also teaching books. ah comedy and what else are you teaching? Cause I noticed that you'd have a PhD in education, which is kind of interesting. Yeah. so ah the teaching I do on my own is I teach comedy writing and I just do that online on zoom and there's always courses available if you want to check my website. I'm sorry. um yeah So that's, ah but I also used to plug away. Yeah. booms University and I, the the, the gig I get all the time. I'm not like one of those like full professors who has like did the whole thing. Same. Yeah. So i'm I'm adjuncting, but there's one course i they have to give me unless some like a full professor bumps me out. And that's a teaching future teachers how to teach music for kindergarten to grade six.
00:04:57
Speaker
So I always get to do that one. And then I pick up other courses here and there. well That's the one I get to do all the time. I want to ask about your PhD.
Trevor's PhD and Academic Pursuits
00:05:04
Speaker
What? Because you, so presumably you wrote a thesis for that. I did.
00:05:09
Speaker
And I have a feeling that your thesis is very germane to this podcast. What was it? Okay. I was trying to quick, I was wondering if this would come up. So i was trying to remember my entire title because if you write a thesis,
00:05:21
Speaker
The most important thing is the title and it has to have a colon in it. So Conceptions of Creativity on in the Ontario Elementary School Curriculum, a Historically Situated Document Analysis, 1853 to There we go. Wow. And the key word in that for us is creativity. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So it's a historical analysis of creativity. So I also researched creativity, like where the word came from and all the different conceptions. Because my research is all about how different conceptions come in and out and which ones get pushed by the education system.
00:05:58
Speaker
That's very cool. Now you're a very creative person as well. So we haven't touched but on sort of your
Comedy Albums and Musical Projects
00:06:04
Speaker
writing too much. So what else have you written? I know you've written some novels, short story collections. Yeah. So I got one one look yeah yeah got one full novel and I got ah the ah my self-help book, Get Stupid with the Ignorative List program. And that um that took one of the people who who read that book to the presidency. Yeah. So, and then I did my short story of fairy tales.
00:06:29
Speaker
And then I just put out my first kind of solo comedy album um called Too Many Songs About Cats. And it's nine songs. That's not possible. It's nine songs about cats. that's not Okay, that's that's maybe just enough songs about cats. Yeah, I wrote more. I wrote about 20. Okay. You know, I recorded nine.
00:06:47
Speaker
you know i recorded nine yeah So there's a follow up that coming more too many songs so about cats. Yeah. Yeah. More too many. Yeah. Yeah. So that's my latest thing that I think I've been doing. And I got a couple of other books that are just kind of sitting on my computer that i haven't done anything with.
00:07:02
Speaker
Oh my God. i I have so many questions. I thought I was joking about pushing your meeting and tomorrow morning back. Right. But now I realize I'm. I was serious ah because we could be here a while. and And now all the questions have gone out of my brain. Well, that's all right. That's okay. They'll come back. Or maybe they won't. It'll be fine either way. It'll be fine. I'm not feeling like this is a high stakes scenario where we've gotten ourselves into it. It is. No, no. no okay okay but Okay. The first question that I was thinking of was, so you've done a a solo album.
00:07:29
Speaker
So what prompted you to to do that? Is there now bad blood between the other arrogant? Oh, no, no, no we we're just no. We are getting... The less we work, the more we like each other. And we've been part-time now for like 15 years. So, no, i think I think Wormland has never been a happier place than it is right now. But we're very part-time.
00:07:51
Speaker
And I turned 55 this year and started to get my seniors discounts. Okay. well I kind of went, you know what? and i'm doing like And I do a lot of stuff, but I went, I really want money.
00:08:04
Speaker
Because I was really going towards the teaching the last kind of five or six years. And I'm like, I'm going to just gradually kind of go back to more making stuff. So, yeah, that's basically it. So then and the only way I learned to do things is by forcing myself to do them. And I've meant to learn how to do recording of music, like since we started doing it. i but You know what? If I just say I'm putting out an album, then I'm going to have to learn how to record things. So that's what I did.
00:08:28
Speaker
Oh, so you recorded it yourself? Well, I did. Yeah. Oh, there's no money in any of this. So what's the point in paying other people anymore? Right. I mean, like and or I could suck up for favors and then I just feel bad because all these people spend all their time. You know what I mean? So it's kind of how I operate. so i You know, I'll just I'll just have to do it. I'll just have to do it. So it doesn't sound like a professionally produced album, that's for sure. But I was pretty pleased with what I got. And I recorded all of it exactly where I'm sitting. I have this my there' great drum track, which I did hitting this table over here. It sounds awesome though. It sounded awesome. Like every time you go, what?
00:09:07
Speaker
That sounds great. What a good table. Yeah. I have to make stuff else I get really cranky. So I just have to keep on producing stuff. Right. And I've just given up on, I'm trying to, to, to avoid that. So I'm just going to make more stuff now. like Can we play a track from, from your album in, or a portion of it in this podcast?
Influences and Humor in Music
00:09:26
Speaker
Oh yeah. Yeah. You can play whatever you want. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Great.
00:09:29
Speaker
We will. Please tell me you sampled a cat. Oh no, I did all the cat noises myself. oh Okay, even better. All never mind. I'm sold. There's lots of cat noises. I just did them all myself because I would have gone into the house. I would have found the cat. would have had to poke the name cat. would have taken That would have taken longer than recording the rest of the song. Can you give us a preview of what that sounds like?
00:09:50
Speaker
Poking the cat? No, yeah like you doing the cat. Yeah. ah what do Well, I go some rare and I do some um vomiting.
00:10:03
Speaker
a little chewbacca in there at the end yeah that's one of the the stronger songs um is is uh uh hairball hairball it's my it's my western it's my western song okay there that's the that's the one where you're gonna have to send me the file yeah yeah well there's lots of hits there's a pirate cat song of course on there as well of course Of course. Yeah. Pirates. Wow. Okay. Now, so we will have to get back to all this, but Mark and I have also learned to ask our guests about the art that they have chosen earlier in the podcast episode. So, and you have chosen a very cool, somewhat cruel, maybe a piece. What is it?
00:10:39
Speaker
So I know I was supposed to find a a thing, and a work of something that meant or did or is a related or did something for me. Oh, yeah. And you've done perfectly. you've come And so so there was and there was i had a bunch of things like coming in second for me would have been the ah black night scene in Holy Grail. That would probably yeah for in for things that have affected me. which is I love that this countdown. Good. Also horribly violent. But Poisoning Pigeons in the Park by Tom Lehrer is what I chose.
00:11:10
Speaker
ah because when I was young, I was in a house and my parents were there as well. I don't know if that's usual or unusual, but my parents weren't huge music people, but they they liked music, but they didn't have a mass like a whole ton of albums like some people did back in the 70s. But they had they had some. But you know of the 15 albums they had, one was ABBA that I heard over and over again, and Jesus Christ Superstar was in there. But then we had they had two Tom Lair albums. but Murray had? Yeah.
00:11:42
Speaker
Two Tom Lair albums. Oh, okay. I grew up with this as one of the major things I heard, right? And Poisoning Pigeons in the Park is, like, if you're, like, a 12-year-old kid, it is just...
00:11:56
Speaker
Well, even as an adult, but as a kid, it's like, this is the gleeful, happy murder of a a small, annoying, but probably innocent animal for lack. And it just like made me go, wow, is this possible? You can do this and get away with this. And I like i didn't know how it how we got away with it at the time, but now like now I do. But I have written many murdering small animal songs on my own.
00:12:23
Speaker
Since then, Kill the Dog Next Door, which is one of our mid-tier Arrogant Worms songs. Disclaimer, this podcast does not endorse the mutilation harming of animals. I recently wrote a squirrel murdering song, um but I've also written a... This podcast does not endorse the murdering squirrels. This is not biased. I also co-wrote an animal murdering human song, Rippy the Gator. I'm okay with that. We're all right. we're all That's fine. yeah yeah yeah That's his nature. you Balance it out.
00:12:51
Speaker
So that's why I picked that. Yeah. um And like, definitely, I read a lot of songs still like that. Wow. Okay. So everybody should pause this podcast. Yeah. i was going to say, can we pause and listen to the to the song? Yeah. Go go find it. yeah We can't make it a part of this because ah we you know it'll get- It's all public domain. Oh, it is. Before Tom Laird died, go look it up. do Before he died, a couple of years ago, he made all of his works and recordings public de domain. All of them. Okay. Nevermind. Do not pause the podcast. We're going to play it right now.
00:13:28
Speaker
Spring is here, a suppering is here Life is Skittles and life is beer I think the loveliest time of the year is the spring I do, don't you?
00:13:41
Speaker
course you But there's one thing that makes spring complete for me And makes every Sunday treat for me
00:13:52
Speaker
All the world seems in tune on a spring afternoon when we're poisoning pigeons in the park. Every Sunday you'll see my sweetheart and me as we poison the pigeons in the park.
00:14:07
Speaker
When they see us coming, the birdies all try and hide. peanuts when coated cyanide. The sun's shining bright, everything all right when we're pigeons in park.
00:14:29
Speaker
We've gained notoriety and caused much anxiety in the Audubon Society with our games. They call it impiety and lack of propriety and quite a variety unpleasant names.
00:14:44
Speaker
But it's not against any religion to want to dispose of a pigeon. So...
00:14:55
Speaker
If Sunday you're free, why don't you come with me and we'll poison the pigeons in the park. And maybe we'll do in a squirrel or two while we're poisoning pigeons in the park.
00:15:10
Speaker
We'll murder them all amid laughter and merriment, except for the few we take home to experiment. My pulse will be quickening with each drop of strickening.
00:15:23
Speaker
We feed to a pigeon, it just takes a smidgen to poison a pigeon in the park. Wow. Dark. That's amazing. But hilarious. Because, well that's another thing. Tom Lehrer's just such an awesome dude. So he had this career of doing comedy for 10 or 15 years. And then he went, oh, touring is so annoying. And people in the in the in the entertainment business are annoying. I'm done. And he just went back to teaching at a university, ah math and musical theater.
00:15:52
Speaker
Those are the two courses he taught. It's a great story. Isn't that amazing? It really is. like This sucks. I'm out. yeah I'm not like I'm being fun. I did this to have fun. It's not fun. So yeah I'm done with it. He just, he just passed away. Didn't he? Yeah. he just died that last yeah I think it was a pigeon. I think that did. It took a long time. He was like in his nineties. I think like he was super old. because i have't soundm really good at count like i have this here, This is so he oh wow yeah yeah He's been at it. He was like, he was old, right? Old, old. Anyway. Yeah.
00:16:29
Speaker
But people in the comedy song world, which, you know, there's about 20 of us, he's generally considered the number one guy. I think Weird Al calls him the number one comedy songwriter as well. Like, yeah, no one else touched him. It's gotten close. So what makes his stuff so great? Like it's, it's, and it stands up, obviously. He has all the elements, like the elements. Well, that's another song that he did. ah His wordplay is amazing.
00:16:52
Speaker
Like his rhyming is incredible. And his music is top. Like the, he treated like he wrote the songs like songs, like, yeah. The Pigeon song, has it is a complicated... It's not a straightforward song. it is It's got a lot of complex chords and changes in it. So he did... The music is straight up good, and as well as his writing and the concepts he he did, right? So that's that's it. He's got all of that going. And and he his rhyming is...
00:17:23
Speaker
And he wrote that as ah as a waltz, right? As sort of a counterpoint to dark humor. yeah Yeah. And that's where I learned the trick of if you want to do something violent, you make it as sweet and light as possible. That's how that's how you do it, to make a comedy. If you're going to something violent, you make it sweet and joyful and frivolous. Frivolous, that's the word of that song. He does it frivolously, right? Yeah.
00:17:47
Speaker
but it's But he was also making a point too with the song. with the i mean it's ah He was satirizing what was happening to the the actual poisoning of the pigeons. Oh yeah, he was proud was always satirizing something. Yeah, he was always taking somebody on, but in ah in a happy, bright, fun-loving way. yeah And is that important to you and your humor, like on your own and with the arrogant worms to and that satirical element or? We know we don't. I just not. I don't think it's necessary for what we like. We definitely don't do. We've never done timely satire at all. Like when we started out, it was mainly because we made that We actually made a conscious decision not to do that, but it was mainly because we were lazy we want to be able to play the songs forever. Yeah, that was good. Good call. Yeah, evergreen material. I personally never tried to attack any person with very occasional exception. Until recently? Really, really. But I'm much more interested in in attacking all of humanity is my usual target. So history is made by stupid people.
00:18:49
Speaker
you can't go wrong with that idea. Right. And it's, you know, and it's everyone. So, um and I, yeah, I mean, I appreciate that kind of set, like the, the get getting somebody, but it's never been, at least for comedy music has never really been something.
00:19:04
Speaker
I personally do. Yeah. Yeah. It's not my, it's not my deal. I prefer attacking all of humanity at the same time, like very, so broader stuff or just frivolous, fun stuff, doing that stuff too.
00:19:19
Speaker
Now, getting back to what we talked about earlier, your educational um accomplishments and your PhD, your thesis, and
Defining Creativity
00:19:28
Speaker
the the only part of it I remember is creativity. so what Well, there was a goal. That's true. Okay. That's where you take a, and then you get a second hand. Yeah. yeah What did you learn or do you remember about creativity?
00:19:43
Speaker
Okay, so um this is a dangerous question to ask me because I wrote a thesis on this. That's why I'm asking. yeah like I'm just saying if you press play, it might not end. Wow. Okay, so what did i learn about creativity?
00:19:58
Speaker
it's So much. There's so much. Let's start with what's the most important thing you learned about creativity. The most important thing about creativity is it's one like the high the high level takeaway is it's one of these aspirational words like freedom or leadership or stuff like that, that everyone wants. Everyone wants it.
00:20:17
Speaker
And everyone agrees it's great until you actually sit down and talk to the other person and see what the hell they mean by freedom, for example. Like everyone wants freedom, right? What freedom do you want? Well, i i mean I want my freedom just to do what I want. What what freedom do you want? I want my freedom to own you. oh yeah These are two different versions. That's not a freedom we can endorse on the show either. Yeah. You know, both of those have been versions of freedom that people have pushed. Like, I'm not joking. Like that's they both being pushed. So creativity is very similar. there's all these different concepts about what creativity is and what it should be used for. And through the years, it gets pushed by different groups. Whoever has the power and the money kind of pushes it this way or that way or that way. But all of the conceptions stay.
00:21:07
Speaker
So what ends up happening is people have. There are different versions, even in one person, you can have five or six, seven different kind of broad conceptions, depending on what creativity you're talking about. And I don't know if you remember like 10 20 years ago, there was this stupid debates going on all the time, but can you teach creativity or is it innate?
00:21:29
Speaker
And these were just people actually having circular art arguments because yeah they held different conceptions of what creativity was. So they weren't they were just talking over each other. Right. They weren't actually you can't have that argument until you just agree on what creativity is.
00:21:46
Speaker
Right. And but that's what of mean I remember. They went on for a little while. They're so dumb. Anyway, I'm glad they're they're not a thing anymore. But that's what so those that's the big takeaway. this like The specific point that I found very early, which was the most surprising to me, is that the term creativity did not really exist till the 1940s.
00:22:05
Speaker
That's probably the biggest thing I found. Really? That was shocking of an individual thing. Yep. Yep. So previous to that, what did people refer to yeah art in a different way then? if you Oh, you're digging so deep. Oh, here we go. Sorry, but I'm a nerd and that really interests me. Creativity comes from Judeo-Christian idea of capital C creation. right And this was taken from the Roman verb creare, which was just create a new thing. So Romans, when they created, they would just, you know, I'm creating a new company, right? That's it that's you know that's how they used it.
00:22:43
Speaker
And that version of the words, by the way, still exists in English, you know, I create a mess. that You're not being creative, right? I created a problem. Is that creative? So that version, that even definition has never gone away. But then when it entered English, what became English, it came from the Bible where they ripped off the Roman word create to for the creation. And so originally creativity could only be done by God and it was all finished.
00:23:07
Speaker
So God had creativity, used it once, created the world and that was it. But then as things moved on and people couldn't... ah ignore that change was still happening, right? That creation wasn't done. right Then people decided that God was still, that the creation was in motion. So then people could have things like creative power with a capital C. And that was always given by God, right? And then ideas of genius came in and genius was powered by creative power, capital C. But sometimes people also thought it was powered by the power below. It was not If you were genius, it was powered through something else, either demons or God.
00:23:49
Speaker
Right. That's why genius was always this kind of term. And then in slowly in the late 1800s, early nineteen hundreds the concept of creativeness came in, the word creativeness. And this was about, and this idea is still around, about creativity.
00:24:05
Speaker
there's an ongoing creation and you're a part of it. And so if you grow according to your inner nature, according to God or capital N nature, as was often used, then you are part of creativeness. You're showing creativeness. And this was in kindergarten. Kindergarten was about creativeness because it was about having a seed from the universe and then growing in the right way because it's a garden of children, kindergarten.
00:24:31
Speaker
Yeah. That was creativeness. And then when the 30s, well, the 40s rolled around and the psychologists were doing personality tests and making everyone little these little things, abilities, right? And then the... um There was this big push in the United States to catch up with the commies in the 50s. And this is when it really took off. The first real creativity research of in create studying how creative people were and aptitudes was funded by the American military in the nineteen fifty s
00:25:06
Speaker
i feel like I feel like almost everything was funded by the American military in the 1950s 60s. But up until then, humans couldn't be creative because creativity involves – the word creative meant godlike power. So humans were ingenious and clever.
00:25:25
Speaker
They were ingenious and clever. and you and But these words, of course, died down as creativity took over. Yeah. Right. And so the way I understand creativity now or how it's been applied in my life is that you have the ability to generate a lot of ideas.
00:25:40
Speaker
Would that map to what your current conception of it is? or Oh, I have... So I now have all the conceptions. So I no longer view it as a thing. I view it as a bunch of different ways of doing it. I actually have grown to love the idea of creativity being an ongoing process, being part of a group or a system, because that's much more positive to me than the what it is, is taking it away from the big picture, the group.
00:26:07
Speaker
and putting it on the individual. And of course, what's getting pushed more and more now is creativity and innovation. These things were not related before. Creativity as problem solving did not come into the 1970s, that idea that creativity solves problems. Because if you view creativity as growth, it's not solving a problem.
00:26:25
Speaker
A tree growing is not solving a problem. It's just being a tree. Right. And so for me, this idea of digging down and doing innovation and creativity, I don't like it because it's focusing now on you will do creativity to create a product or increase a thing or to do these little and to find problems. And I think seeing the world as as an ongoing series of problems is a very depressing way to it.
00:26:55
Speaker
<unk>s what i It's quite reductive, if nothing else. Yeah. So i i have actually so my ah my create my conceptions were much more like that before I did the research. And now i'm like, nah, man, I'm just I'm way more into the creativeness thing of we're all just vibing and we're part of this thing, man. And we're just like, just let it go. prop Like, just feel it out and be and grow. And then we'll all grow together and we'll be a lovely garden together. Right. Yeah. In my research, you would see, oh, the myths about creativity is that it's a metaphysical construct. And it's like, that's not a myth. It is a metaphysical construct.
00:27:29
Speaker
That's what create it is. yeah It is a myth. You can try to rip pieces and make it analytical, but it ah it is a metaphysical construct. And a little bit of ah a limiting one, too, in a sense, because I think we all know people who, you know, go into the arts and and they're sort of designated as creative people. And then there's people who are good at math, you know, yeah who get this self-perception that they are not creative because, you know, they do math as opposed to the arts, which is ah problematic, I would think. yeah Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah, no, everyone... I see all all these all the versions now, but the one I like is that one. That's the one I like the most. I see all the other ones as well. And none of them are right. None of them are wrong. They just all are.
00:28:10
Speaker
And you just got you got to figure out why you're talking about creativity like what to to figure out what's going on, to figure out what's actually going on when you're talking about it. So we've actually, we've got a pretty expansive definition of
Creative Process and Balancing Acts
00:28:24
Speaker
creativity, I would say. on Okay. podcast Like, i I think we're willing to talk to lots of people that are creative. Um, yeah, yeah know because you know the way we look at it is, um, we, you know this is a podcast who talks to creative people and we're all creative.
00:28:37
Speaker
Yeah. yeah yeah Yeah. Yeah. And we all have our different influences and yeah. Yeah. yoga everyone's dead Yeah. Yeah. But I can go on further, but I'm not going, I'm to myself there. unless you I can go on a lot more detail. ah Can we talk a little bit about your creativity, your, you know, your work? Yeah. What are you excited about right now? Like, what are you working on right now? That's like, got you excited.
00:29:01
Speaker
ah Well, ah well i'm I'm excited about, like I said, I was doing a lot. I was getting to the point where I was doing so much teaching stuff that I wasn't having, I wasn't really doing much. I was still putting out some songs. The Worms put out a song every month, so that leap leaps keeps me busy. But now I'm very excited that I did that album and I recorded it myself. That was really fun. So I'm going to put out one a year. and Oh, wow. Wow.
00:29:25
Speaker
Like I said, i i don't so I don't sweat quality. I'm a quantity person. So my next one is too many songs about love. I got a bunch of terrible love songs that I'm going to put out. So I'm excited about that because I i i find I'm best if I have a an end goal, and an art ah an artificial.
00:29:43
Speaker
Like you you have a deadline that you've given yourself. and It's only artificial, but yeah. yeah How long does it take you to put an album like that together from beginning to end? Uh, well, I think, I think a year is going good amount and, and it won't be a long album. It'll probably be I think they'll average between six and eight songs is my guess.
00:30:03
Speaker
Yeah. And is it like you think about it for 11 months and then scramble in the 12th? Well, or I already have a bunch of, well, sometimes, but I already have like a bunch of songs that exist that haven't gone anywhere. And so so I'm going to re I rewrite some of those and then I've just dig in on the, the idea and see what comes out.
00:30:19
Speaker
And hopefully some stuff will come out and I just, I'll just keep on gnawing on the bone till I got enough. What do you record on? What like what software and stuff? Oh, so I tried for a year, like every five years, somebody would give me a cracked version of something or other. And I put it on my computer and I mean tryde makesx and i would fail every time. But I'm on ah Waveform, which is free. i don't know if you've used that one. It's fine. It looks like all the other ones, that as far as I can tell. It was seemed to be a little simpler than the others, probably because it was free. But that was good for me, right? um Yeah.
00:30:54
Speaker
Because it meant I didn't quit right away. And then, so once I got over that hurdle of not quitting, then I was able to... So then ah so for a few years, i've been using I was using it, but just using it basically as a stop start, stop. I wasn't using any of the features, even like even, the even the simple effects or EQ, I wasn't using any of that. And then when I was doing this, I went, okay, I'm just going to sit down and watch some YouTube videos. and Like I'll just start recording. And when I, when I don't know how to do something, I'm just going to watch a video.
00:31:26
Speaker
ah So that's how I work. Yeah. Yeah, oh I can't wait to you de hear something. It is not pro, but it is finished. So you mentioned sort of what while you were sort of really heavy into teaching, you were having troubles creating stuff.
00:31:42
Speaker
So what's the secret to getting past that? Because I have the same problem when I'm teaching, like especially during a busy term, like if I'm teaching three courses, I do find it really impossible to draft something new. i can work on a work on something I've already drafted. I can do you know the the crafting part of it. But yeah, how do you do something new?
00:32:04
Speaker
The only, um, make more time. Yeah. Okay. It's sad, but true. Cause the less I teach, the less money I make. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I'll make some, the thing is like, I'll make some money doing creative stuff, but it's not the same amount.
00:32:19
Speaker
Right. It's like, I will get something back, but i hear you instead of that, it's going this per hour. Right. was trying to figure out what I made on the album so far. I think it's 20 cents an hour. Which is way, way, I want to point out, ahead of 99% of even professional recordings. i'm I'm ahead of almost everyone because I've made a profit because my budget was $0. So, yeah. Right. But that's, you know, so I am ahead.
00:32:46
Speaker
Music is depressing, isn't it? always has been. But um yeah. yeah yes So the um my ah the solution I found, because i was I've been been like this for about three years now,
00:33:00
Speaker
And i that's why I made the conscious choice this year. is like I was like, I have to start saying no to stuff. and that's the And that's it. That's the only solution I could find. Yep.
00:33:11
Speaker
I'm very lucky that I've had my summers free okay from teaching. So I've been able to draft a novel every summer for the last 10 years. So that that gives me stuff to work on during the year. But yeah, that's the way I've been doing it. Yeah.
00:33:23
Speaker
Yeah, because can pick away on it and that's easier than the big push. Yeah. yeah Yeah. Once you've got the pile of words, then you've got something. You know what it is. yeah Exactly. Yeah. way It is amazing how when you do have the time,
00:33:35
Speaker
how it fills up. Well, yeah. If you do something like start a publishing company, yeah kind of an idiot would do something like that. No brain activity is that. no And those are the things I'm also trying to stop doing. Cause I also do that startup new companies and do. Yeah. And we're like, no, no, no, I can't do that. I have to, we'll see. oh But this is a form of creativity, isn't it? Right? Like you can have these creative impulses and you go, that, that sounds exciting. Yeah.
00:34:03
Speaker
It always seems like a good idea at the time. yeah It always does. i think it is a good idea, Joe. yeah i know They're all great ideas. Yeah, it's going very well. But like, and and like on top of that, I'm, I should have been writing a whole bunch of academic papers, but I haven't bothered because I, like if I, am I going to sit down write an academic paper or I'm, am I going to write an anti-squirrel polemic in a song?
00:34:27
Speaker
Like it's a no brainer. I'm going to write that anti squirrel song any day of the week. Right. Like, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's your music, but now you've also written books.
00:34:38
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Written. I've published three books. So tell us more about that. So ah my first one was my self-help book, Get Stupid with the Ignorance, His Bliss program. And that's just a straight up parody of self-help books. um And that was good because I could do it in small chunks, right? So it was more like it's straight up comedy book. And then my second book that I put out is Very Grim Fairy Tales. And I've always loved... You can tell like I i love...
00:35:06
Speaker
Happy, violent humor. i I don't know why this is, but I love happy, violent humor. And I've always loved fairy tales, the original fairy tales, because they are so...
00:35:17
Speaker
arbitrary and violent and mean spirit. Like they're just, if you read the old ones you're reading along and then yeah the grim fairy tales are horrible. Arm gets ripped off. Like it's just, and it's out of nowhere. And there's cannibalism. There's yeah, it's pretty horrific stuff. and Nothing's justified. They don't say why this witch is here or what brought it about or how, no, no, the witch is here puts on a curse. Yeah.
00:35:40
Speaker
That's like, oh, that's great. that's Isn't it fun? It would be fun to write that way. So I decided to write. because you enough Nothing's justified in a fairy tale. Modern ones justify stuff and it weakens them. It's not that. Anyway, so I wrote. ah So they're like some some are so satiric, but most of them are just.
00:35:59
Speaker
weird and there's almost always an undeserved death in them and then i wrote a novel edgar gets going the rise and fall and rise and fall the fairly decent bass player and that's the first one i got published by someone who wasn't me so that was nice it was basically a for the first i can know a one-man publishing company but i got it out and you know when you're writing you want at least some outside you know, pat on the back. So I think it was really good to get one that was published by someone else. I think I made way more money. i actually made money off my first two books because I put them up myself. So I think I'll probably just go. And I have one right now, yeah which is pretty much done, but I don't know what the hell to do with called.
Publishing Adventures
00:36:41
Speaker
keep on changing the name, but Stacy, the stinky fairy about all the faulty fairies who, uh,
00:36:47
Speaker
who who live in a sewer, basically a sewer underground. And then one day everything stops stinking because the perfect fairies have stolen Stacey. And so now nothing in the world stinks. And then two brave boys go to rescue Stacey so that they can smell their farts again.
00:37:04
Speaker
So that is a very deep and important book. We need to see. That's what I think. I sent it around like five years ago and nothing, not all my other books at least got solid nibbles. Right. And the one that did get published with the other two, they did like have like they were that close that they were both that close to getting published by someone who wasn't named Trevor Strong. But this one, and I thought it was by far the best concept. No one. What, anything? It's like, nope, nope. Who is your work ah pitched to? i don't I don't mean like publishers, but like what's the target audience for
00:37:35
Speaker
for that Basically me. But I already have a copy on my computer. So maybe this is a, may I'm starting to see where my plan falling apart. um Like fancy humor, really. um So all ages, just, yeah. Yeah, it's all ages. Like, i like i i don't do a lot of like swearing. Well, my novel has a lot of swearing because one of the characters swears. And so it's not my fault. There's a character who has to swear. And so there's tons of profanity. But most of the time I keep,
00:38:07
Speaker
the language clean, but the concepts not. Yeah. That's usually what I do. Twisted, twisted. I love um but i like so But I think, you know, ah anyone who like, you know, that kind of humor, um absurd Python-esque Steve Martin type of stuff, it's it's leaning in, all my writing kind of leads in leans in that direction, I would say. Right, yeah.
00:38:33
Speaker
So I think there's some people who would like the same people basically go to arrogant. I feel like this is turning into a pitch session. yeah you know obviously Yeah. I love it. No, you guys are asking the best questions. Arrogant worm fans ah should buy the book. that yeah yeah If you end up self-publishing it, that's fine. How long is the book? And you're a good company. This is a hybrid writer group. I mean, this is. Oh, completely. Yeah. Like I've self-published. I've published with other.
00:38:58
Speaker
It's the thing is so way to do it, I think, actually. yeah and it but is' weird like Coming out of music where everyone does this, it's strange to go, especially back when I started doing writing, to encounter this thing where it's you're not considered a writer. Like some grants you couldn't apply for unless you had been published by an outside source. yeah And in music, it's like, no, people have been doing it themselves forever. Well, I think the world, the publishing world is coming around to that. Like I know I certainly have in the last little while because it's kind of my realization that we've all bought into this idea yeah that you have to be published by Penguin Random House or something. And it's just complete nonsense. Yep. They may do nothing with your book and they may, they' they'll take all the profits, them and Amazon and whatnot. So no, what the hybrid indie, you know, what we're doing, I think is the way of the future. yeah And I've told people that repeatedly, like I thought the music business was meant messed up.
00:39:55
Speaker
And then I went into publishing and they were like, Oh, what? There's something more that makes less sense than the music business. And it does. It's and like, it's not even close. Publishing makes way less sense than the music business. Well, I think there is a way to do it. And Mark and me and my friends are are figuring it out. Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:14
Speaker
yeah Oh, yeah. i I think there is. And it's easier now. But definitely the stigma was much stronger than in music for doing it yourself. When I tried to break in 20 years ago or whatever. to that Yeah, I think so. for but but it's still but that But that negative bias is still out there Yeah, the whole vanity publishing. yeah You just got to not care about it. I was like, really? You're going to?
00:40:39
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway, just a little harsh for It's interesting because you're' you know you're talking about creativity and and if innovation. night like They don't necessarily go together, I don't think. oh they don't go together. Just because you're creative doesn't make you an innovator as well as a – like Joyce, sure, he was an innovator.
00:40:55
Speaker
Yeah. You know, that's an innovative novel. That's a totally different way of writing a novel. Most people who write novels aren't innovating something. They're just is still basically a novel. But I do think that the soft publishers, small publishers, the indie publishing roughly drop broadly speaking, I do think you see more innovative books from that group.
00:41:16
Speaker
Oh, definitely. from the large publishers. Yeah. Well, yeah I mean, take a chance, like, just like, as you said, you know, it's not as expensive. And many people have written about, um, now we're going down this whole other squirrel hole. I'll say, um, the whole grant funding agency, so many small publishers survive by grants, but then, you know, these grants come with conditions, right? And then they send the industry in a certain direction.
00:41:40
Speaker
yeah So, you know, you got to be, that's another part where it's slightly dysfunctional in in my view. Yeah. yeah Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's better to spread the money around to a whole bunch of people and a couple of them are going to come up with something that hits and the rest are just going to have a good time coming up with something.
00:41:57
Speaker
Yeah. So all you agencies, just give me your money. No strings attached. You know, we'll do great things. I'll publish Trevor's book. We'll be so great. It's going to great vibes, man. Great vibes. That's a good one.
00:42:09
Speaker
That's good vibes, man. Yeah. No, I'm into the vibes now, man. That is my. I agree. Yeah. yeah yeah So I have a silly question. I should know the answer to this because I spent weeks researching you, as i'm sure you could tell before the, but I failed to unearth what your instrument was. What is your main instrument?
00:42:27
Speaker
Oh, well, it depends how you want to to define instrument. I'm mainly a singer, I would say, for sure. Like, I call myself a singer who owns a guitar instead of a guitar player. But um for next instrument guitar, which I am good in, I'm good in a limited way on guitar. So if I'm keeping to, like, basic folk rock stuff, I'm solid. If I go anywhere past that, it's not, that I just don't have a past that. There's no past that for me. ah I'm really good at mouth harp like boing boing boing that thing I'm awesome at that like I'm born natural there's no demand for that instrument I've discovered a although i I did one session as the session player on mouth harp and I even got royalties oh wow wow I play some ukulele what else that's about it like most stringy instruments all that are like guitars I can half play desk percussion obviously
00:43:22
Speaker
And desk percussion. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of that kind of stuff. um Yeah, I don't let I've never let my lack of knowledge, ability or skill stop me. I just do it anyway.
00:43:33
Speaker
Yeah. Now the courage to be awkward as it were. Yeah. Oh, I had to learn bass a bit because of the album. that i put out I had to play bass. Oh, I need a bass part. It's just a guitar. How hard it can it be? It was hard. It was way harder than I thought it would be.
00:43:48
Speaker
Two less strings. They're the same strings. They're tuned the same way. And all of a sudden, I go, ah, I don't what but So strange. Yeah. Way harder than I thought. but you listen to it like an excellent bass player. it You admire what's going on, you know, like Paul McCartney or Sting or, you know. And I might i admire it more now, even.
00:44:08
Speaker
you know Because yeah but it's just the big guitar. it's It's bass guitar. It's right there in the name, right? You know, there has to be something to the bass for a guy like Paul McCartney to say, you know what? I'm okay with this.
00:44:21
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great. I mean, and playing bass and singing is way harder than guitar and singing because guitar, you're usually just like strumming a whole thing and bass though, you're doing these lines that are often in a different rhythm than what you're singing. So it's it's actually trickier. So people who can play bass and sing, or that's, yeah, that's tough.
00:44:42
Speaker
I was wondering about people who played the drums and sang, because I would have thought that you would be like out of breath. You know? Yeah, I don't get that either. Yeah. Yeah. that's That's a whole different level. Yeah. That's crazy stuff. Crazy stuff. yeah I feel like we've gone in many, many different directions. Is there anything more to say about Tom Lehrer and Poisoning Pigeons of the Park? Oh, that's a good idea. Well, I mean, I was talking a bit about...
00:45:06
Speaker
Like, so I teach, do a lot of comedy courses, comedy writing courses now. And it's, um and as I do more of them, I discover more and more what I've been doing. It's one of those things where doesn't necessarily make you better at it, but you understand it more. um And it gives like gives you ways in. It's like when people go take a comedy writing course, is it gonna make me funnier? It's like, no, but you're gonna, it's like, um if I take physiology, will it make me a better hockey player? Well,
00:45:31
Speaker
it won't make you a worse hockey player, but if you want to get better hockey, the best thing to do is more hockey. You'll understand why that hurts the way it reads. Yeah, exactly. The best thing to do is more comedy. And most of my class is doing exercises, so we do more comedy.
Comedy Techniques and Stand-Up Challenges
00:45:44
Speaker
But we do talk about how it works. And so for something like Poisoning Pigeons in the Park, it's that contrast, right? Where you want to keep people, because comedy works when you are stuck in this moment when there's something awkward.
00:46:00
Speaker
And or weird or threatening. And you don't know if it's going to harm you or not. And that's where comedy lives. So that's why we laugh. If you slip and fall and then there's people around, often you will laugh. You do that because you're giving and and everyone's going, is this serious or not?
00:46:17
Speaker
And when you laugh, that is because you'll laugh or you'll scream. And the scream is a danger. And the laugh is everything is OK. So having this tension is what makes things funny. And so.
00:46:30
Speaker
That song, because it is so violent, yet so frivolous at the same time, it's that balance. And he works because of the song craft he puts in it. It's not like, I'm going to the park and I'm going to get pigeons going. No, he's done it straight. Like, that wouldn't be as funny. He's done it straight up with all the chord changes, all of the little musical flourishes. He's rhyming accurately and fun. Like,
00:46:59
Speaker
And that's why it works, because it's this contrast between this song, which if you heard if you did not speak English and you heard the song, you would just think it's this happy little dancey song. Right. And that's how that works. So, I mean, and knowing that now and seeing what I've been writing over the years and how much I have used in particular that trick.
00:47:21
Speaker
on so many songs, so many songs, horrible things happening, but in a light upbeat way, but still making it musically correct, like still making the music work, which is what the Worms tried to do. Like we tried, right? I love that and i about you guys. The music is always fabulous. yeah That's what gives the balance is doing the music right means you can go even further with the other direction.
00:47:47
Speaker
The more you do the one thing right and the more out it is that direction, the more you can counterbalance it by pushing the gag on the other side, right? Yeah. Anyway, so that's a trick I learned, right? Rippy the Gator is our best example of that. If people, if you don't know it, it's ah our children's song, but instead of being a fluffy, funny, nice animal, it's an it's an alligator that eats a child limb by limb. song Okay.
00:48:12
Speaker
We have never had a complaint about that song, ever. It's shocking. The first time we did it, it's like, oh my God, they're going to kill us. No. And it was an outdoor festival. Everyone loved it. Kids were singing. And the way we got away with it is this exact same trick. We played it so straight and happy as a children's song, right? It's a happy children, that we could push the violence.
00:48:34
Speaker
To but to the literally the limit, right? Like we're eating, we're not just killing a child. We're doing it limb by limb until we pull up um the severed head at the end, right? You wouldn't think this would be would work. Well, sometimes I suspect that there is a ah dark vein in the soul of humanity that we really responds to that kind But you have to couch it so it's acceptable. And that's what comedy does. And that's why comedy, when it goes wrong, it goes horribly wrong when you get out of that pocket. And and of course, different audiences read different things differently. That's where you get in trouble. Or where you push it and you think you got it right, but actually you're just to the side. And when you get just over the line, it doesn't go like before the line. It's like somewhat funny. And the closer you get to the line, the funny. When you go over, it goes to super funny to you are a monster.
00:49:28
Speaker
That's where it goes. Yeah. Well, I mean, some of the most cringy moments in my life that I remember, you know, or when I attempted to, you know, say something funny or do something funny and it just, fell flat or yeah and it's horrible it's a horrible sensation oh it is because people not like it it's either it's going to hurt you or not going to hurt you and if you go over the line it's all of a sudden you're a threat or something's wrong and then it yeah that's why comedy is so dangerous right back back to stand-ups that's like the thing that would terrify me the most of being a stand-up is getting through bombing because you're going to bomb, right? As you said, yeah every audience is different. They're going to take things different ways. You're going to have nights where you're not on and you're going to bomb. And I just like, Oh, that I just don't know if I could take it.
00:50:14
Speaker
Yeah. Cause even if the audience is the same, everything's the same, but you just tell that joke just that much differently that one night and it yeah just lands on the other side. Yeah. Yeah. I want to ask you about ah something related.
00:50:26
Speaker
So, I mean, you guys do songs, music that is straight up funny, intended to be funny.
Humor in Pop Music and Instrumental Skills
00:50:31
Speaker
Are there any songs or music out there, you know, which is like a pop song, you know, not necessarily intended to be funny, but has a funny moment in it that you've particularly appreciated or liked? oh i bet there are i can't and none of them jumping out at me one thing i'll say is like i'm a big tom petty fan and the reason is all of his songs have an undercurrent they're not in your face foot yeah but yeah it'd be funny he's yeah darkly ironic and it's but it's it's underneath none of his love songs are straight up oh free falling every time i hear free falling i'm like she loves jesus She loves, yeah, and America, too. No, she loves horses. Oh, and her boyfriend, too. Or a tattoo, too. oh no It's never unconditional love. There's ah always a caveat with Tom Petty.
00:51:17
Speaker
It's never free, right? Even the losers get lucky sometimes, right? and so So that's gotten quite, it because I know there are some, and I i just can't, i they're not just not coming to my head. i just I just thought of it because I just have a real special appreciation for when that, because you very rarely hear humor in straight up songs, but when you do, it's like, wow, you know? Yeah, there are some people who do it. And like Tom Petty, ah almost always, I think, i irony or sometimes jokes, but they, he didn't ever, they were just lying there. I i think Leonard Cohen is very good. Oh, but yes. Leonard Cohen does another good example. lot of his lyrics have very yeah pretty dark humor. Dark, dark humor, though. you know Yeah. yeah but Joe Walsh is another one that comes to mind. Yeah. yeah yeah
00:51:58
Speaker
Yeah. But like said, I know there's examples. I just can't think of the ones off my head. But I do appreciate that. and I'm sorry. I put you on the spot there. Yeah. Oh, no. it's just scant like My head is just going... my favorite yeah it's Yeah. Smoke. so this ah Mark, any final thoughts or comments? Yeah. I just realized that Trevor's name backwards is Rovert. vert Yeah, it's Robert Nortz. Robert Nortz. That's pretty awesome. Pretty good. Mine's cramped. You know, it's not bad, but Robert is much better. Robert Nortz is just a full on. Yeah. yeah Yeah.
00:52:27
Speaker
Robert Niro Nortz. It's pretty good. That's pretty good. Yeah. And a great note to finish on, I think. Okay. Yeah. Robert Nortz, thank you very much for being on our podcast of Recreative. Thanks, Robert. but Thank you. Thank you for having me. Kitty loves me more than you.
00:52:43
Speaker
This one thing I know is true. There is nothing you can do. Cause Kitty loves me more than you. You give him treats, you give him pets.
00:52:57
Speaker
Only makes you look desperate. Yet I bring him in a sweet voice But I am the only choice Kitty loves me more than you But you should not be bitter Kitty loves me more than you You can't slip clean his litter
00:53:18
Speaker
loves me more than you. This one thing I know is true. And I know it makes me sad. And that really is too bad for you.
00:53:32
Speaker
But it's pretty great for me. You'll see, cause I'm the one with the gifties.
Closing and Contact Information
00:53:51
Speaker
You've been listening to Recreative, a podcast about creativity and the works that inspire it. Recreative is produced by Mark Rainer and Joe Mahoney for Donovan Street Press Inc.
00:54:02
Speaker
in association with Monkey Joy Press. Technical production of music by Joe Mahoney, web design by Mark Rainer. You can support this podcast by checking out our guests' work, listening to their music, purchasing their books, watching their shows, and so on.
00:54:17
Speaker
You can find out more about each guest in all of our past episodes by visiting re-creative.ca. That's re-creative.ca. You can contact us by emailing joemahoney at donovanstreetpress.com.
00:54:31
Speaker
We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening. Music