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Judy Cormier on Acting and Dames Judi Dench and Maggie Smith
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In this episode of Re-Creative, it’s all about acting. Mark and Joe talk to Judy Cormier, an actor based in London, Ontario where she can often be found onstage at the Palace Theatre acting with the London Community Players. She’s also dabbled in directing, having recently co-directed The Wicked Witches of Oz for the Kettle Creek Players. She’s also known for her film work, notably in Black Donnellys, an indie film from 2017 that explores the brutal, vigilante-led end of an infamous Irish immigrant family, and in which Judy portrayed family matriarch Johannah Donnelly.
Judy talks about the work of three heavyweights of the craft who have inspired her —Judi Dench, Ian McKellen, and Maggie Smith. Judy shares specific lessons she unearthed in Dench’s memoir Shakespeare: The Man Who Pays the Rent, including the fundamental difference between rote line memorization and the necessity of truly understanding the text you’re performing.
Joe, Mark and Judy discuss everything from the tragedies of Euripides to the structured chaos of “Pantos,” those unique traditional musical comedies often performed around Christmas. Judy walks the lads through the unique challenge of training polite Canadian audiences to abandon their reserve and scream at the villain, something they learn Mark excels at.
It’s a fun conversation with someone truly passionate about her craft.
Re-Creative is a co-production of Donovan Street Press Inc. in association with MonkeyJoy Press.
Contact us at: contact@donovanstreetpress.com
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Transcript
Cultural Appreciation in Media
00:00:09
Speaker
Mark, konnichiwa. Joe, how are you? i finished watching that Shogun that I mentioned a few episodes back. Oh, okay. I love that show. That was really good. It was, yes, it was excellent. And my Japanese is that much better as a result. Yeah, I love the, ah well, it connects to our first episode, the haiku.
00:00:26
Speaker
Like the haiku actually featured in that because it kind of had these lovely moments where they actually emoted through their haiku, which seems very Japanese to me. Like that's the only allowable way to actually show emotion. Yeah. Yeah. And now I don't think that this episode that we're about to do has any connection, anything
Joe's Acting Aspirations
00:00:44
Speaker
Japanese. It just came to me as I was listening to the show theme. can redirect. So the acting in that was very good.
00:00:51
Speaker
And nicely now I've got a question for you that may be triggering. I'm worried this is going another one of those questions where like, oh my God, I didn't. So have you ever been on stage?
00:01:02
Speaker
Yes. And if you have, do you remember the first time you were on stage? Because I have a good one. I'm guessing our guest has a good one. But what about you? Because I'm still learning about you, Joe.
00:01:15
Speaker
ah and Well, it's funny. I was just say telling my daughter over supper that for most of my youth, I wanted to be an actor. And I think it is still something that I'm quite interested in. And I do remember the first time that I was on stage. I've been on stage several times.
00:01:35
Speaker
And it's interesting. I was just watching the the movie. What's it called? Jay Kelly. yeah i got Yeah. Yeah. I had to give up on that one, but that's okay. Oh, really? Okay. I stuck with it to the end. Yeah. But there's a, without spoiler alert, I guess.
Landing the Lead Role
00:01:50
Speaker
There's a scene in that where sort of the legend of the main character is that he goes for an audition with a friend and the friend is the guy who is supposed to get the part. Yeah, it's as far as they got. Yeah.
00:02:01
Speaker
And then instead, Jay, played by George Clooney, gets the part and then becomes the movie star. Right. And except for the movie star part, that happened to me.
00:02:13
Speaker
I went to an audition. It was in Milton for the Milton players. And My friend had encouraged me to go and he he actually said to me, he said, I'm probably going to get the lead, um but it's okay. You'll get some kind of a part or something.
00:02:30
Speaker
And then we did the the auditions and long story short, I got the lead in the part. And well, it wasn't, it wasn't a big deal for my friend because my friend did lots of plays with them.
00:02:43
Speaker
yeah And he was like really good about it. He's like, oh, this is great. You know? And then he got a supporting part and then we, we just had a great time and it was an amazing experience. But to answer your question more directly, the first time I was in a play, it was called the Sexton and the Bells. I was in grade two and the teacher picked me for the lead.
00:02:59
Speaker
Nice. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. whatever we you My first time was kindergarten. Okay. Okay. you make me out front Yeah. with Little red rotting hood. I played the wolf. Of course. And Angela Ivanovic, who played Little Red Riding Hood, kept feeding me my lines.
00:03:15
Speaker
And I'm like, Angela, I know the lines. I was literally like, I know the line. Stop saying my line. But she was flashing ahead to your your later experience. Maybe she just was had ah nervous about remembering her lines. So she was trying to be. Anyway, yeah I was very annoyed.
Judy Cormier's Acting Journey
00:03:30
Speaker
So anyway, our guest, Judy Cormier. Hello, Judy. Actual actor. But I'm hoping this. brings you back to maybe where you started. Yeah, yeah. those Those are great stories, by the way. My goodness. i I don't actually recall back that far being like in kindergarten or or elementary school for sure. i was more of a dancer back then, not into theater so much. I did do 10 years of dance, ballet and jazz in London with a couple of really, really well-respected dance studios.
00:04:04
Speaker
Back in the day, auditioned for the National Ballet School, which didn't get in. My life would have taken a completely different trajectory if it had. so I'm kind of glad that it didn't. but But really, I got into acting more as an adult as a way to kind of, you know, be creative. and And sort of I had three little kids at the time. I wanted to get out of the house, be with adults and be creative is really what I wanted to do. And I've always loved performing more so dance than than theater. I was in children's theater summer camps and things like that, certainly grew all the way growing up. But my first full play as an as an adult was at the Palace Theater in London. I don't even know if I want to say the play now because I had no business being on stage. I had no business being in a play. it was a bit of a disaster, I'd say, but it was okay. And it was a learning experience for me. And I can say that over the past 25 years that I've been doing this, I continually learn things from not just the plays that I'm in, but the people that I'm acting with, certainly the directors. And maybe we'll get into more of that in a little bit. But, you know, I, like I remember thinking after that was done, I thought, wow, that was, that was a lot of fun. i'm going to do that again. so of course I went out for another and I got the lead in that one too, by the way. ah nice Nice. So we have something in common. We're all lead actors. Yeah. Well, I look back at it now and think, oh my goodness.
00:05:39
Speaker
Part of me, I mean, I don't know if it was a really great script either, but part of me would would like to actually go back and redo that again and just do it how I think it probably, give it the love and attention it needs to have that I wasn't prepared to give back then. But anyway, I did learn a lot. Like I said, I learned a lot, formed some excellent friendships back then even too, and that have continued through to today. So, Yeah. And it's funny you mentioned Konnichiwa because i don't know any Japanese whatsoever. I've never been, never been to Japan. It's high on my list of places to go someday, but one of my favorite plays actually has that word in it. So I knew exactly what you were saying. It's a play called Love Letters and, and it is such a, it's a two-hander. It's meant to be, well, at least when we did it, um we read it. So we, we actually had the book in front of us with the two actors sat on either stage of the, either side of the stage. There's no movement between us. You're stationary at a little podium or a desk or whatnot, and you read through it. And so it's these letters that go back and forth between this this man and this woman over the years. And and they're both traveling. And one of the words was konnichiwa. So it's like, yeah. Yeah.
00:06:52
Speaker
Well, we've done enough of these that we know we need to introduce you soon, sooner rather than later. So I'd like to do that if that's okay. Yeah. So Judy Cormier is an actor who lives in London, Ontario, where, as we've already learned, she performs in local theater on a regular basis. She can be found on stage at the Palace Theater, which is on Dundas Street in London, Ontario, for people who are from London, where she acts with the London and community players in shows such as Scooped.
00:07:20
Speaker
I think that was your last play. Yeah. She recently co-directed The Wicked Witches of Oz for the Kettle Creek Players, which is a panto, and I think we're going to talk about that. She's also known for film work in the region, notably film production about the Black Donnellys, which if you're from southwestern Ontario, you would know what that is. But otherwise, unless you've studied Canadian theatre, you probably don't know about that story, but it's it's an amazing story. And Judy played the character of Johanna Donnelly.
00:07:51
Speaker
And that portrayal won you several Best Acting Awards. So want to learn all about that. Wow. And the panto and all the whole thing. Yeah. Now, before we get into that, I just have to say my old friend, Greg DeCloot from CBC Radio Drama, always wanted to do an adaptation of the Donnelly story. it's It's an amazing story.
00:08:12
Speaker
Yeah, really. Truly it is. and yeah Maybe we should explain that quickly if we could, what that's all about. and then we could talk about yeah your your participation in in that project. Yeah,
Portraying Historical Figures
00:08:22
Speaker
sure. So the Black Donnellys, my goodness, um you're right. If you've grown up in this area at all or studied any Canadian history, it's ah it's an infamous story. Back in the mid-1800s, a family, the Donnellys, at that point, there were only four of them. So there was a husband and the wife and two boys.
00:08:42
Speaker
Came over from Ireland and settled in Biddlef Township, which is Lucan area. They were kind of a rough and tumble bunch of of Irish immigrants. Absolutely. um And as it turned out, i mean, one why I won't get into too much detail, but when one thing leads to another. And ah the poor matriarch of the family gets kicked off to to prison and actually spent some time in the Kingston Penitentiary. Meanwhile, Joanna is at home with a brood of children now, several. So she's got her two oldest sons and then several other boys after that. And and she's actually pregnant with their final child, who happens to be a girl, finally.
00:09:23
Speaker
And she she actually gives birth to the to this daughter, and raises her as as her husband's off in jail in Kingston. They're quite an infamous family, certainly for this region. There's a lot of folklore about the family. i mean, we'll probably never know exactly what they did and didn't do. They were blamed for a lot. And i I personally think that they were probably easy to blame for a lot of things. And they probably didn't do all the things that they did back then. but They certainly weren't little angels either, for sure. And then what happened was February of 1880, vigilante group of concerned Bidolth-Hombship folks banded together, met secretly. There was an awful lot of high profile folks apparently in that vigilante group. Again, we don't know, you know, we we, I mean, I suppose the experts have ideas of who those people were. And ah ah basically went to their home in the middle of the night and and bludgeoned them to death. so Oh, my God.
00:10:27
Speaker
Yeah. There were ah five of them in the in the home at the time, including one cousin or a niece, rather, from Ireland. And they, yeah, they were all bludgeoned to death.
00:10:39
Speaker
Quite a story. And and I think probably the the crucial part of it at the end is that no one was ah convicted or tried for the for the murders. So, because nobody would speak, like no nobody would, which is why we don't really know today exactly. i mean, we have theories about who did that, but. We don't exactly know. No one was tried. and No one was. Holy cow. Yeah. And ah so London writer James Rainey wrote a play about that in the early 70s. And i think it's fair to say it's one of the foundational plays of Canadian theater as it emerged in the 70s. And I don't think it's it's an exaggeration to underplay the importance of that play.
00:11:18
Speaker
but And it was a fabulous experience to be part of the film as well, the making of it. We actually got to film on location at the Lucan Museum, which is where they have a replica ah because they they also, but the vigilante group burned down their house as well. Yeah, that's if you you missed that part. They killed everybody and then they burned the house down. Exactly. So you couldn't exactly go back. I mean, there's ah there's a plaque on that site. Someone else has rebuilt a house there, but. There's a plaque on that site today. But yeah, I mean, I grew up, like we studied that.
00:11:50
Speaker
ah We studied the the books, the Black Donnellys. Of course, they weren't called the Black Donnellys back then. They were only called the Black Donnellys because of one of the books that came out. And that was
Diverse Roles in Film and TV
00:12:00
Speaker
one of the ones I studied in elementary school. I remember taking the Shunpiker tour. at London Free Press used to do a Shunpiker tour. I remember going out there multiple times to their gravesite where they had this huge gravestone floor. for them. And yeah, it was, it was, it was just a fascinating story to to learn about and then, and then to be in it and to be Joanna too was. Yeah. That's, that's, that must've been an amazing experience. i was So how big of a part was that then in the a lead female part, isn't it? The lead female part for sure. okay Yeah. She's the matriarch of the family. So yeah, I was blessed to be part of that for sure.
00:12:37
Speaker
And what are the awards that you won? Because I read that and was that's interesting. what Yeah, they were and yeah independent film awards. There were several of them that as independent filmmakers, very often they'll submit to ah lots of different ah indie film places. And then I actually went to l LA to get to on behalf of the team and and oh wow got a certificate and got to go off and take hands. And it yeah, it was a lot of fun. Wow. And and when was that film made? Oh, gosh. um I want to say 2017. I think 2017 was in my notes. but Okay, see i so pre and for yeah so yeah, pandemic. Yeah, yeah yeah but definitely before the pandemic. yeah And how did you get the part?
00:13:21
Speaker
I mean, I know you were probably you know quite experienced as an actor at that point, but was there an audition process? and Yes, there was an audition process. I ah sent in an audition tape. I had actually worked on something else, another small indie film just prior to that. And somebody knew somebody and, you know, got through my name around and they contacted me to say, would you like to audition for this? And I'm like, are you kidding me?
00:13:48
Speaker
The Donnellys, I grew up learning about them. Absolutely. i will take anything, you know, i'll for sure. so um yeah, so I sent in my audition tape and and got the role.
00:13:59
Speaker
That's so exciting. And have you done other films? I think you have done, you you've done some TV too, right? Yeah, I did an episode of Fear Thy Neighbor. That one was, I did that ah just shortly after that. So I'm going say 2017, maybe Fear Thy Neighbor. um That was filmed in Dundas, Ontario. So that was a really, really neat experience as well to to get paid to do this, which was exciting. It's always exciting to be paid for things. Yeah, it is. quite doing late So I did that. And then I've done a commercial recently as well in the last ah year and a half or so for Parkinson's Society of Southwestern Ontario. I've done some other independent films as well for various folks in and around the London area. so
00:14:41
Speaker
That is so great. so And I want to get back to your your acting experience and and maybe even talk about your interest in ah dancing as well. But I know that you came to us ah also interested in talking about a couple of fairly well-known actors.
00:14:55
Speaker
h Yes. A couple of inspirational folks of mine, I guess, ah Judy Dench and Ian McClellan. So, yeah you know, they're just, and and I guess Maggie Smith, I could probably smoke throw Maggie Smith in there too. Why the hell not? why not? That completes the threesome. Truly it does. really Could Ode to be in a room with those three. I mean, obviously we can't be with Maggie Smith anymore, but wow. like you know You can't get a powerhouse trio better than that, I don't think. so I think just for, for especially for Judi Dench, I mean, she's female. So I just, I look up to her. She's done so much. she's And she's done it all. and and And she's still going. Now she is suffering from macular degeneration. I know i have read recently that, um you know, she's, it's difficult for her to see and recognize people, see television, that kind of thing. But I do know that she's still doing what she can and, you know, um gets people obviously to help her. a lot, but but, you know, you just think about their career and what they've done. And I mean, I just, I look up to them because I also read last year, I read Judi Dench's book, Shakespeare, The Man Who Pays the Rent. That's awesome.
00:16:13
Speaker
Really, really good book. but In fact, I started listening to the audiobook first, and I think probably about quarter of the way through, i went out and bought it. It's an actor's guide, almost. She not only talks about you know her experience and the roles she's played, and breaks down that character and maybe the play as well, which...
00:16:34
Speaker
Shakespeare's not for everybody. and And certainly I've never been anything in in any Shakespeare. it's probably That's maybe a goal of mine someday is to be in a Shakespearean play. But, you know, she she also talks about her experience in it.
Admiration for Acting Legends
00:16:50
Speaker
So she talks about, you know, critics and the audition process and different actors she's worked with and the different theatre companies she's worked with and travelling around the world doing things. doing, doing these shows that she's done. So, you know, I just loved hearing her tell her story in that, in that way. It was, it was very much an interview and it actually didn't start out being a a book from my understanding. does a little intro. I can't remember who actually wrote it or, or asked all the questions. He's also an actor and was on stage with her at times, but it was an interview and they just set it up as a bunch of interviews that were just going to be published in a, in a newspaper or magazine. And he actually put them all together and made a book. I would recommend it to anyone who just enjoys Judi Dench, but also enjoys acting too. Okay. So what's your, I i i think we're going to have to rely on film here because obviously there's no way you would have seen every Judi Dench performance on stage. So what would be your favorite performance of hers on film?
00:17:48
Speaker
Probably that unfair. Yeah. I mean, I probably haven't seen everything she's done either, but certainly M in James Bond. I mean, that's probably the top one for me. Ian McClellan I mean obviously for me again Lord lord of the Rings at which I have a funny story about that and the panto because I actually have seen Ian McClellan on stage in England which was phenomenal I can talk about that and then for for Maggie Smith oh my gosh I mean Harry Potter for sure but Downton Abbey as well she had some killer lines in Downton Abbey oh yeah
00:18:20
Speaker
And the way, the thing is too, is to, the way she, her comedic timing and her talent and how she bangs out those comedic lines. Like that's a skill that, you know, she, she just does beautifully as, ah as the Dowager. I loved her i loved her so much in a Room with the View.
00:18:40
Speaker
Oh, yes, yes. She's so wonderful, Amit. Yes, that's true. just so dry. and Yeah. i also really liked her in Gosford Park. Is that right? The name of... oh i dont That's a Robert Altman film.
00:18:54
Speaker
Oh, okay. It's set. So it's like, it's like pre Downton Abbey. It's before they did that. So it's the same concept, but it's just, of course, it's a, it's a film by that guy. So it's like, it's, it's more satirical. It's more, you know, cutting and she plays. Oh, she's just, she's, she's a piece of work in that movie.
00:19:14
Speaker
I think another one that I enjoyed was ah The Prime of Miss Jean Brody. Oh, yeah. She's good in that. Right? She's phenomenal. She was much younger back.
00:19:25
Speaker
yeah She wasn't always an old lady. i Everyone needs to remember that. She was, yeah, very young once. Yeah. I agree. Quite a beauty, actually. Yeah. Beautiful. So yeah, i studied that to get sort of a, to help with my Scottish accent, I guess, for a role that I played later on. So yeah, I mean, those three are just incredible. So yeah, definitely inspirations for me.
00:19:49
Speaker
I agree with you on M, by the way. Yeah. I think Judi Dench's M is really quite... ah right yeah. Because what I love about it is that it it it hinges over two different bonds, but there's still a character arc.
00:20:05
Speaker
that she manages to create because it's I think it's all her. I don't think it's actually in the scripts. Well, it it is in the script from, you know, the first Daniel Craig Bond on. But like there's actually an arc to her character, which is kind of interesting. Yeah.
00:20:21
Speaker
And that's all acting, I think. Yeah, I agree. well But I mean, but it has to be informed a little bit by the I mean, she's got what was she off script or something? no I don't think she was off script. I don't think she was off script, but my interpretation from her in the, like, she's kind of a, I think she was kind of written to be kind of like a Herodon the, was it great Irish actor? Pierce Brosnan. Yeah. Great Irish actor. And I loved his bond, by the way, don't get me wrong. But like he was, I think that's how she was cast. Yeah.
00:20:53
Speaker
And written, but she gave it some nuance that was wonderful. Oh, yeah. And then and then when the the next Bond film writers took over, she just took off. Like, it was such an amazing character.
00:21:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. She really did. It really taught. Yeah. And I think the, I mean that the Daniel kt Craig Bond franchise was, you know, head and shoulders, I think above anything since, uh, for Marsha with love anyway.
00:21:20
Speaker
So I can't believe we haven't talked about bond really on this podcast, Actually, that's amazing to me that we have never talked about this one. but I have a question for for you, Judy, which is like, how does, i mean, it's an unfair question because you're like trying to imagine how just Judy Gents do her job. But how did, like, what are the some of the things that you would use to get into creating a character like that?
00:21:44
Speaker
Yeah, ah that is a good question. So, I mean, not obviously, as you said, not knowing her exact process. However, she does talk about a little bit of that in her book. So really just a couple of things. So listening, being still and and listening. So I think that that's something. And again, if I go back 25 years ago, there is more line memorization than really settling into a role and into a character. And And, you know, understanding what's motivating that character, what's why they're saying every single word that they say. again, was lost on me 25 years ago, but I've come to learn that over the years. So that's definitely something that I would take away from from her, um is really understanding the text and and being vulnerable and listening to your to your fellow actors, being a ah giving actor as well. She's talked about that too. Being open to
00:22:42
Speaker
to experimenting with with your fellow actors on stage during the rehearsal process. So those are a couple of things that she's talked about in in her book that I would definitely take away.
Theatre vs. Film Acting
00:22:53
Speaker
Is there something that you know now? Well, and I'm sure that there is, but is any one thing in particular that you would identify that you know now that you didn't know? Yeah. If you could go back in time and tell your earlier self. ah Yeah. I mean, it is really about just understanding the text, understanding, again, every word. And i and I've said this, ah I've actually said this to the the actors that I've recently directed as well.
00:23:18
Speaker
If you don't understand a word that you're saying or you don't understand, you know, a phrase that is said, we've got Google now, too. I mean, 25 years ago, we didn't necessarily have that. So you would be relying on your director's interpretation of the of the text and of the script as well. But really diving in and understanding, and you'd be surprised how many people don't do that and just say, just remember the lines, just memorize the lines, go over them and over them and just say them without, you know, it gives you a deeper understanding of who you are and as the character, obviously, and and, and informs and provides that meaning that you need in order to convey what you're trying to convey. i think another thing that Judy Dench does really well is um shows how do i put this so she she she shows in her face in her and her actions before she speaks yeah so you know she will let don't you know not giving too much dramatic dramatic pauses because you don't necessarily want that it slows down the pace of your of your script but but really sometimes letting things settle for a second and then reacting to them with the words. So I think that that's her. I don't, maybe it's a little bit of direction too, I'm sure, but the script isn't likely telling her that. It's that's her informing herself ah according to what she's getting from her fellow actor.
00:24:47
Speaker
Yeah. That's gotta be so different ah theater to screen, right? Like the difference between the two, because I i often think that that that reaction's happening too fast, but that's what I'm watching TV or watching a movie. And it's just like, yeah, that but that's just the cut. like that They've just cut early and they've cut too quickly and they haven't let the actor absorb the information. That must be so annoying for the actor. Actually, I mean, I'm not an actor, but like i'm like I did do acting classes so i and I was an actor for a while. But i yeah, like i was like, oh, come on, man. You can't cut that fast. That's too fast. Yeah.
00:25:26
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. I think there's something to be said. And i ah like I mean, I haven't done a lot of film work, but the film work I have done has was a wonderful experience. But I think for me, the stakes are higher in theater, you don't get a second take, pause and rewind and say, just a second, i want to do that again. Like,
00:25:48
Speaker
You're laying it out all on the on the line. and and and And you have a different, this is the other thing too, you have a different audience every night and a different show every night.
00:25:58
Speaker
so So you do have another chance in that way. You can do it again tomorrow or next Friday or whatever. But it still won't be the same because it won't be the same audience. So things that you did last night that did go well, you'd be like, oh, that worked. That got a reaction, that got a laugh. And then tomorrow night you try it and you get nothing. Yeah. That was, yeah.
00:26:18
Speaker
It's just thinking about it all over again. So weird that's what I love about it. And I think it's the immediacy of it too. And it's the, you know, you when sometimes, and I've been on on the the acting side of it, maybe a couple of times, because it's generally, if it's a really deep subject matter, I did, I was in a cast of Trojan women a few years ago. that's a great play.
00:26:39
Speaker
Oh my goodness. I was so lucky and blessed to be in that show. I was in the chorus and, Talk about heavy subject matter. Yeah, it's heavy. It's really, really. And, and I mean, we started it, the production was at the Arts Project, downtown London.
00:26:58
Speaker
We started it in the, in the actual art gallery. So, the ah one of the guards came out and did a speech outside of the theater proper. And then as the audience is coming in, those of us are in the chorus, there were nine of us Trojan women who were obviously very upset because our husbands were off at war. And so we we spent pretty I think it was a 90-minute show. There was no intermission. 90-minute show. We probably spent 80 minutes of it crying and wailing and keeming and sobbing and all of it.
00:27:33
Speaker
And so the audience comes in, course, they're taking off their coats and putting down their bags and turning off their phones as we're wailing in the corners. It was, I mean, it was a good one. Oh, I'm sorry. I missed that. I would have loved to see that. my God. It was incredible, though, because the audience was immersed in it the minute they got into the theater. So they were, you know, like I said, taking off their coats and going, what's going Why are these women crying so much? Exactly. I'm here for a nice night at theater. Yeah.
00:28:07
Speaker
Well, hopefully they weren't thinking that knowing they were going to see Trojan. Screw that. You're seeing Trojan women, buddy. here Yeah. That's right. Rippities takes no prisoners. Right. it was but But there were times that though part of that, you could hear a pin drop. And at the end, there were some nights when the audience literally was a pause between the end of the show and when we were starting to do our bows before the audience kind of went, oh, it's It's done. no It's over.
00:28:37
Speaker
yeah We did it guys. We survived. yeah a hundred percent We said, we felt like we broke the audience. Like they were, they didn't know what to do. it was ah incredible to be part of it.
00:28:50
Speaker
Oh, it was like, I get shivers still thinking about it. It was really a great experience. And I learned a lot from that group. So who directed that? Cause that sounds like that was amazing direction.
00:29:00
Speaker
Yeah, Eva Blayhut. She's absolutely incredible. I don't know she does much right now, but I, and so speaking of a time when I was an audience member and felt the same way, was her performance of Medea. She was outstanding. I mean, when she, she came out with her hand red with blood and, and put it in the middle of the floor. And I think the audible gasp around us just went, when you realize that she's, she's murdered her children. And, And the I mean, just the the you could hear a pin drop.
00:29:33
Speaker
I mean, that's, you know, and when you're in a room with a a whole bunch of other people, strangers, most of them
The Joy of Acting and Directing
00:29:40
Speaker
you don't know, all witnessing the same thing live in your It's like you're breathing together and you're consuming this, salt you're in it together.
00:29:50
Speaker
It's just a beautiful thing. And that's what I love about theater, no matter whether you're doing something as deep as those or a lighthearted comedy and you're all laughing together. You're ah' kind of it's the connection with humans, not just on the stage and the audience, but amongst you. So you've directed as well, right? And and do direct, right? Yeah.
00:30:10
Speaker
Yeah. Do you have a preference, acting versus directing or or dancing? Well, not dancing so much anymore. I love what i love dancing for sure, but um I wish I could still dance. um I think probably acting is much less work than directing. That's a good answer. that's ah That's the right answer. It's less work. Just tell me what to do and I'll do it. Exactly. i'm All I'm responsible for is me. I mean, i I'm an actor. My job is to learn my lines, understand why I'm saying them, you know, create the character, all of that stuff. I love putting that work into it. I love the research of, of characters and, and the scripts. I love that part. And the part, the times when I think back to the shows that I've done, the times that we've dug into that are the times that I've,
00:31:01
Speaker
loved the show even more than I could possibly love it oh that's very cool yeah I absolutely love it I I missed my calling and you know being a dramaturge or something because i'm I I've I've not I'm not academic about it at all but I love learning that you know about the time periods and and you know what happened and who these people were and ah ah you know just everything about uh about whatever time period that I'm working on yeah um yeah I love it Dramaturgy is, okay, so that's an interesting thing because like I'm in i'm in the the playwright's lab at at the Grand and I'm learning about dramaturgy because when I was at theater school, I mean, there was dramaturgy, but it wasn't a big thing. like It was just like this yeah extra thing that sometimes happens. But now it's like a mainstream part of Canadian theater is dramaturgy. So how would you describe dramaturgy exactly? My description would be it's a specialized kind of editing.
00:31:59
Speaker
so it's i So I met with a really interesting dramaturge this week, actually, as it happens, to work on my play. And he liked the play. and we had a great conversation to see if we're going to work together. And i we're definitely going to work together. and What was interesting for me was that he was talking about things that I know, but in a totally different way. So he's like, let's do, I want you to do another rewrite and think about the beats.
00:32:27
Speaker
I'm like, okay, I know what you mean by that. yeah i Think about the beats first and then think about the engines that are running the characters. I'm like, okay, that's a great metaphor for thinking about a character. So it was, that's good dramaturgy. I think it's just like giving the writer a bit more,
00:32:44
Speaker
Right. Fuel for the fire. And because I'm now charged up to do another draft of this because I I know it's not quite ready. He described it as a good middle draft. So I know it's not ready, but I now think I have the, you know, fuel to do that. And I think that's what a good dramaturge does at the start. And then as we go on, I think what we're going to do is more like a line edit. So if you've done, know, you do line edits, Joe, like that's your job now. it's one of One of my jobs. One your many jobs. One of your many hats. So then it gets into line by line, sort of like connecting the line specifically with the rhythm of what the character is saying and does it make sense with the character and what the character wants to achieve. So it's it's it's like and editing. It really is editing, but it's a very specialized form of editing that's thinking about how
00:33:39
Speaker
how is this going to work on a stage and how is an actor going to work with
The Tradition of Pantomime
00:33:43
Speaker
this? And how is a director going to work with this? So Judy, did did you say that you do some playwriting as well or?
00:33:50
Speaker
No, I haven't done any playwriting. I've done creative writing just, just as a fun, just for fun, but yeah, no playwriting yet. However, well, I'm co-directing again. so I just finished co-directing, as you mentioned, the wicked witches of Oz's pantomime in St. Thomas and, And, um, we are ah my co-director, Jessica Fedor and I are going to co-direct again next year. It was such a wonderful experience that we're going to do it again. we had such a blast doing it this time. And, uh, so we're going to try our hand at writing something for this year. So, well, ah oh for the next, is it going be panto as well?
00:34:30
Speaker
and to be another panto yes okay she's already got it started so we are going to meet over the christmas break and get together and noodle some things around so yeah we're really looking forward to next year we've we've got a fun troop of people that are waiting and eager to hear what we're going to do so so some of our listeners will need to know what a pantomime is yes yes yeah so can you do that I'd love to tell you because you know what? Canadian audiences have no idea what Panto Yeah, it's so English.
00:34:59
Speaker
Well, unless you're from Toronto. Ross Betty. yes there's lots been lots of great Pantos there. Yeah. 100%. I've seen a couple of them for sure. There's also a good one in, they do them in um Bob Cajun as well. Globus Theater in Bob Cajun. Oh, cool. They do a panto as well. there she's The lady who runs that is a British lady too. So I just saw her. I'd to do one down here in New Brunswick.
00:35:23
Speaker
Oh, you should. I bet I'd go over really well. Oh, I think. Yeah. So, okay. So tell us about your experience doing panto. So what first of all, what is a pantomime? A panto. So what is pantomime? So a pantomime, panto for short, is a traditional form of a genre of theater that is done in England, of course, as she said.
00:35:43
Speaker
It has a couple of things that are key that you absolutely have to have. So one of them is you take a fairy tale or folk tale and basically turn it on its head. So you'll take, you know, Cinderella, for example. We did that last year. so you, of course, have Cinderella. You, of course, have, you know, the evil stepsisters and the evil stepmother. But you'll also have other additional characters that aren't in the traditional Cinderella story. Buttons.
00:36:13
Speaker
buttons exactly 100% buttons you'll have you know you won't maybe have the mic I saw Cinderella this summer at Hero Country Playhouse so yeah oh I love it yes so you so that we always throw in these countuchist layers characters another thing that we always do is it's it's not it's definitely not your disney version for sure but it's always heartwarming it's got a lovely little story at their little little um lovely ending a good feel good ending it's for families definitely for children if you've got children that like to bounce around in their seats they're totally welcome at panto in fact we love them so a couple of other things there's always a dame So the Dame is generally played by a man. It's bads best played as a man, from right by a man. And generally speaking, the lead, say male, so your prince would generally then be played by a female.
00:37:14
Speaker
So there's is gender crossing rules. You can pretty much do that throughout, really. I mean, you can do whatever you like. Pantos kind of open that way, which is why we enjoy doing it as well. But you generally have the male is a dame and the lead, traditionally male role, would be a female. there's You also break the fourth wall.
00:37:34
Speaker
So it's very much participating with the audience. We encourage, and this is where Canadian audiences really, so... probably suck hard hate to say it but we're such good quiet respectful theater guys yeah until the rest of the time it was so noticeable cinderella yeah you guys so what we learned was jessica and i were we're new at we're new at directing we aren't new to panto we've done lots of them but
00:38:08
Speaker
Sometimes the pantomime lends itself to that in the script. So for example, buttons will come on and say, hey, boys and girls, and then kind of encourage the audience to chat back and say hi. And and and then they'll say, now, when the evil witch comes out, I need you to say boo or whatever. sos Okay, wait, wait, wait. Yeah. Yeah. Who the heck is Buttons? no buttons So Buttons was the the best friend of Cinderella yeah in the in the version I saw. And ok she was the panto enabler, basically. So she came out and explained. So the the first scene happened, and then they you know it was just like nobody responded because that's that's not what we do in a theater, right? We don't...
00:38:53
Speaker
We don't yell back at things. And then Buttons came out and said, no, you've got you don't know to understand. When she comes on, you've got to boo her because she's really bad. And here's the reasons why she's bad. And then when this guy comes on, you've got to yay him or whatever. And ours was fabulous. And she was also...
00:39:12
Speaker
so necessary because she was the person who was giving everybody time to change costumes and change the sets. Like the the curtain would come down and she would and she would come up. So she's breaking the fourth wall. So she's breaking the fourth wall and that's Panto. like And so you have to get the audience involved. And she was all about getting the audience involved. She was amazing, actually. Yes.
00:39:34
Speaker
Oh, fantastic. Sounds, I wished I'd seen that. AJ Bridle or bridle. I don't know how to pronounce her last name. She was really, really amazing. And there was a long break, uh, near the end of the show where there's a big set change. And she brought up a bunch of kids.
00:39:52
Speaker
Uh, as part of the whole thing, like I need three brave, brave volunteers and all the kids. She's the eyes want kids. And then like we got four because like she got three girls to come up and then this little kid, this guy came up and joined them and she was amazing. She's just like vamped really well.
00:40:11
Speaker
She was at their level. She was really charming. Wow. ok Yeah. It's like that, me that part of it is amazing. Yeah. And that's a little bit of improv too there. Oh, yeah.
00:40:22
Speaker
know what these kids are going to say. Plus, you don't know what the audience is going to yell back. Very often, we ask the audience questions, like in the panto we just did. you know we We had a section where we needed to open a door, and we said, you know what what magic words do you know you know? Of course, through the rehearsal process, we're trying to give them all the things that we think kids might say these days. you know But not instead of not just like... seven. ah Well, I was just going to say that. Six, seven, if you know, I wasn't sure if you guys knew about it. I don't. My children are not am out of the loop. I don't know what that, what is that? On Tumblr. So I'm up on this stuff. Oh, good for you. Okay. So, you know, so you would have loved the reference because we use that in the play. That's the kind of thing you do in Panto. is you but I mean, years ago when Baby Shark Song was out, I know we, you know, that was a reference to that. So there's always. I'm so out of touch.
00:41:16
Speaker
all yeah It makes you feel like you are really because you've got all these children that are around that are telling you all these new fangled words or whatever that they've come up with and you have no idea so a couple of other things in the professional versions. We don't do this so much in community theater because it can get a little bit messy, but there's generally a pie in the face. We did do a pie in the face gag one year. And then we had the kids come out and sing It's Hard Knock Life. Well, as they're cleaning it up. So that was a lot of fun. But the the thing is, you've got to really also do pie in the face, not with the dame who's got a ton of makeup and a wig and all that. Pie in the face, maybe the, you know, the buttons something. The henchman or something. The henchman, exactly. Somebody who doesn't have a ton of makeup that they have to reapply after after the pie in the face gag. But
00:42:03
Speaker
ahs So there's something like that. we We wanted to use water guns. There's also water gunn guns that sometimes, you know, and as they spray each other and then they spray the audience. Of course, the audience is all going, ah. We didn't do that last year. Instead of water guns, we actually fashioned leaf blowers. And on the end of the leaf blower, we put a paint, a paint roller. And on the paint roller, we put a toilet paper roll. So when we turned on the leaf blowers, the toilet paper went everywhere into the audience. And of course, you know, the kids love it. They love those types of gags. There's all kinds of silliness slapstick. There's lots of jokes in it. We try and also... you know, we'll make fun of Elmer down the street or London. Nobody wants to go to London. Who wants to go to London? You know, that kind of thing. Lots of those regional type jokes as well, which will work anywhere in New Brunswick. You just say, oh. Yeah, you just replace the name. Fredericton, who wants to go to Fredericton? Yeah. Exactly. um So the lady that actually brought Panto to St. Thomas, Leslie, she actually lives in Nova Scotia now. And so she started them here in 2012 with Cinderella.
00:43:12
Speaker
She did them right up until COVID. The last one we did was Puss in Boots and I was Puss in that one. It was a oh nice just a riot of a time. Then she moved out to Nova Scotia and she's actually brought them there. So she did Cinderella last year. So if you if you're ever in that neck of the woods, I think she's going to do one next year as well. They didn't do it this year, but next next year they will, I think. yeah so Yeah, they're just so there's a few other things. I mean, there's, there's lots of like you said, booing for the bad guy, we always want them to boo and and there's lots of banter with the audience. When you're the bad guy, you got to banter back and forth with them and cheering for the good guy. There's a it's behind you scene where the ghoulies or the monsters are behind. And you and you i know remember one year we we sang Itsy Bitsy Spider. And of course, the three of you are sitting there. And generally, the dame is on there, too. So the premise is that two of them get scared off by the ghoulie or the monster behind them. And the dame who's left...
00:44:08
Speaker
scares off the monster so that's kind of the joke there because of course de spends most of their time saying how beautiful they are and how wonderful they are and how lovely they are with and they always look awful false so so or at least you know i guess like a dame would with their with their high eyebrows and crazy wigs and they're so colorful uh high energy just a lot of fun i mean it's for families and the kids love it so And the funny thing is in England, i
Upcoming Hansel and Gretel Pantomime
00:44:37
Speaker
say the kids love it. The kids love it here and I think the adults too. There's lots of adult cute type humor in it as well, which it which is a lot of Yeah, there's lots of double entendres. Because it works out, yeah, multiple levels. can Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's a good cartoon kind of thing. Absolutely. I know that my friend Dave and I enjoyed screaming at the bad guy Cinderella, screaming things like, we hate you or yeah like, people we find you very unattractive. Yeah.
00:45:04
Speaker
Your children don't care for you at all. Things like that. You know, it was fun. And people around us were looking like, what are you saying? Because we're screaming this at the top of our lungs. That's a good point because we did. So Jess and I did, again, these these four performances. We directed the cast through the four performances just in November. And we did hear on the third night that there were some disgruntled sort of audience members not realizing what it was and saying, how rude these people around us are booing these men. Not in on the joke. Completely upset about it. So we thought, oh my goodness, we don't want people to be upset. This is supposed to happen. So the next night we had a preamble before the show and I announced what Panto is and what we expect and had the audience
00:45:53
Speaker
Like give them a, ah you know, a trial run, I guess, you know, run buttons moment. Yeah, like yeah exactly. Because because in this panto, we didn't have that buttons moment. And I and so I said to Jessica, next year, either we or the next year's whenever we do it again, over the years, we'll either do that preamble or bake that into the script. Yeah, which right into the script. Yeah. Yeah. yeah So you steve you've got another Panto coming up and and what else is on the horizon for you of all this kind of work?
00:46:22
Speaker
we've got ah next year, maybe I can announce what we're thinking of doing. Yes. We're thinking of doing Hansel and Gretel next year. So that's a new one for both of us. actually We've been in lots of them over the years. Aladdin, Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty. As a Panto. Yes. Yeah, all of these as panto. puss Wow. Okay, that's going to be more challenging. know So I have to ask. dark story. yeah It is. However, we'll, of course, have all, it'll be all happy in the end. It'll all, you know, the the bad guy won't be as bad as ah as it's as it can be. I mean, the Brothers Scrimm were pretty...
00:47:02
Speaker
Yeah. And the bad guy isn't going to be burned to death at the end of the show. yeah yeah She won't be thrown into the oven. Well, maybe she will be, but she'll come back. Yeah. She's not going to die. Yeah. So, so I have to ask. So, I mean, so pantos now have been done for, for years and years and years all over the place, but it seems like when they're done, they're typically done with fresh scripts. Like you talked about inserting modern references and whatnot. Are they ever done?
00:47:27
Speaker
like, you know, oh, there was a great panto done in 76. We're going to redo that one. Is that, does that ever happen? Sure. It does, but you would just insert those new references. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:38
Speaker
Unless, unless those old references worked, but the, all of those references in there, you would use whatever you need for that area. And the actual scripts say that you can do that. So you're given some leeway when you, when you actually purchase the rights for the script. Yeah. Oh, I see. So yeah, so you are purchasing the rights for previous scripts. Absolutely. I was thinking that Mark should just write you a panto. yeah and then yes Yes. Mark. 100%. Yeah. Russian women, the panto.
00:48:03
Speaker
yeah Yeah. I like a challenge. I'd like to see that. and I feel like all the Ross Petty pantos were new. They were fresh and original. and Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the one last year was Wizard of Oz. They did. Yeah. You know, they had Plumbum in that one. So there's another example. and buts Yeah, Yeah. They had, of course, Lion, Tin Man, Scarecrow, but they had Plumbum, who was played by a man, Dan Chamoroy, who was in, if you've seen ah Something Rotten in chicks in Stratford last year, he was the seer in that. i don't know you saw that. I didn't see that. i didn't I'm too far away from Stratford these days, unfortunately. didn't see that one, so but I do like Stratford a lot. Yeah. I'm amazed we haven't talked to a Stratford, but anyway.
00:48:54
Speaker
Highly recommend seeing something run. It is outstanding. It's coming back next year. It did so well. Not everybody in the world has seen it yet, so they're bringing it back. Okay, that's good. Maybe next year can see it. Really good. Yeah, Mark, any final, as we wind up, any final thoughts on that? this has been a delight. I love meeting you and talking to you, and I'm really looking forward to your next Panto.
00:49:18
Speaker
Well, thank you. I'm going have to make a special trip up to Ontario too. Visit Southwesto, you know?
00:49:28
Speaker
Southwesto Panto. Now I want to ask you too, before we part ways, Cormier, that's a name that you hear a lot back here in in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island. ah Do you have roots in the Atlantic? No, I don't. I don't personally know. I don't have any, but there are, I know that there's a lot of them out there for sure. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, it's not that common around here though.
00:49:51
Speaker
Definitely in New Brunswick. No, it's why I checked. i man Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cormier. Cormier. I assumed it was Cormier, but you know, canadian yeah sometimes you use the French pronunciation and people get very upset. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I know i don't get upset. It's always Cormier down here. Yeah. Yes, it is. So Judy Cormier, thank you very much for being on our podcast. Recreative.
00:50:13
Speaker
Thank you Thank you for having me today. It was fun.
00:50:40
Speaker
You've been listening to Recreative, a podcast about creativity and the works that inspire it. Recreative is produced by Mark Rainer and Joe Mahoney for Donovan Street Press Inc. in association with Monkey Joy Press.
00:50:54
Speaker
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00:51:07
Speaker
You can find out more about each guest in all of our past episodes by visiting re-creative.ca. That's re-creative.ca. You can contact us by emailing joemahoney at donovonstreetpress.com.
00:51:21
Speaker
We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening.