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Jen Prince and Veronica Mars
61 Plays3 days ago
Independent filmmaker Jen Prince joins Mark and Joe to discuss one of her favorite shows, Veronica Mars.
As an indie filmmaker, Jen has had to wear a lot of different hats, including producer and director. She did acting in her undergrad, but soon discovered a talent for producing theatre. She then went to USC for film school, where she did a graduate degree. She’s worked in television, including reality TV shows such as The Amazing Race. Eventually, she landed on producing indie movies and teaching when she’s not making films.
Jen picked Veronica Mars because of the strong female character. It’s also a coming of age story, which Jen loves. She loved the cinematography. She loved the fact that it was a noir set in a high school and that it was coming of age story. She loved the acting, particularly Kristen Bell’s, who came of age as an actor during the show.
If you haven’t watched Veronica Mars before hearing Jen, you’ll want to after!
For more information, check out the show notes for this episode.
Re-Creative is produced by Donovan Street Press Inc. in association with MonkeyJoy Press.
Contact us at [email protected]
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Transcript
Middle Initial Confusion
00:00:09
Speaker
Mark S. Rainer, how are you today? Mark S. Did I get the initial, right? No, it's A. Oh, yeah, that's right. A. But is it really A, or are you like, you know, Michael J. Fox, where you had to like, see, I'm starting with the question. No, that's good. that's That's great. great yeah yeah are you is it really mark a or do is there someone else in the podcasters guild that's like no it's real it's mark andrew named after my great grandfather i believe andrew is where that comes from yeah and i'm one of many mark a rainers at one point there was a Facebook group of us because I don't know why, but every Mark Rainer seems to have A as their middle initial. Weird. Okay. So what's
Middle Names and Heritage
00:00:53
Speaker
your middle name? Because I don't know this and now I need to know. It's Thomas, but I wish it was something. See, my father, his middle name is Aquinas, which I think is like a really cool. That's a good middle name. Yeah. And then, so why did, you know, like it should have been, look, my middle name is Aquinas. Yeah. I have to at least equal that for my son, but no, I just get his name. I almost got, on the other hand, I almost got Anthony. I like Anthony. But Mark Anthony Rayner. Yeah. I mean, I actually would have been really happy if they'd called me Aurelius, Mark Aurelius Rainer. Mark Aurelius. Yeah, Marcus. Yeah, Marcus Aurelius. We should ask our guest. We should. Jen Prince.
Names and Identity
00:01:33
Speaker
Do you have a middle name? I do have a middle name. It's Anne. And I also kept my maiden name and included it as a middle name, Kelleher. So it's Jennifer Ann Kelleher Prince. But as a Jennifer, I was always wishing I had a different name than what I had. It was the number one name in America for 14 years in a row. So there was no situation I was ever in where there wasn't another Jennifer, but usually like three or four Jennifers, leading all the way to graduate school. And my producing partner is also a Jennifer. We're often called the Jens because we're kind of interchangeable with it. I mean, it works out in our favor, but for many, many, many years, I was sad I was a Jennifer. And then Anne is my mother's name and she's lovely, but it felt like the most plain name, you know, in the world. So I come from Prince Edward Island, the land of Anne Green Gables. So Anne is a very special name there. I know. And that was definitely as a girl growing up in San Antonio, Anne of Green Gables, I definitely thought that was like one of the most exotic stories with snow and these beautiful locations and watching the miniseries, the Canadian miniseries. So no, I definitely thought about that when I decided I was coming on this podcast because I thought, oh, you are probably very tired of hearing or talking about Anne of Green Gables. But as a redhead girl, that story is important to so many of us and was actually something I thought about talking about. And then I ended up talking about it because you let in.
Cultural Connections and Influences
00:03:18
Speaker
I was always sad that I wasn't Anne with an E. I completely related to that. And I love, love, love that miniseries. So. Wow. Well, I actually just read the book for the first time about three years ago and was blown away by how good it was. It's really excellent. I love the book as well. I had read the book before the miniseries and then fell in love with it. It's amazing that miniseries, how many people I come in contact with years and years and years later that were moved by it. And by Prince Edward Island being now this like magical place to all of us, thinking we'd want to travel there. And of course, that's where everyone falls in love. And it's just wonderful. I have not been there, but yeah, I was immediately like smitten by like, Oh, these are Canadians that know all about Prince Edward Island. So I grew up in, in Prince Edward Island, obviously. And you said where people fall in love. It actually is where I met my wife in Summerside and yeah. And she's upstairs now, 33 years later. I'm just still giggling at the thought of it being, quote, exotic. Oh, yeah. I mean, I have only- Come to exotic GI. Well, I mean, I grew up in South Texas and I've seen snow only a handful of times in my life. It just seemed completely otherworldly to me. And the, you know, the foliage is totally different. There's seasons. It's just magic. Whereas Texas is, I don't know about you, Mark, but it's kind of exotic to me, you know, and I read James Mishner's Texas and loved it and, you know, grew up watching Westerns and the idea of Texas is very cool to me. Yeah, I, it's it's definitely definitely my, now my second home. I've been in Los Angeles since 1999 now. So it's become home, but I always have one foot in Texas for sure.
Jen's Filmmaking Journey
00:05:16
Speaker
So yeah, so tell us more about yourself, where you come from, what it is that you do. Well, I'm an independent filmmaker. And by that, you know, typically that means I wear a ton of hats creatively. I'm mostly a producer, meaning that I collect different stories and people and try to bring them all together to make a project. But I also direct and I edit. And originally, I came to that sort of creative life from the theater. When you're growing up in Texas, especially when I did, I did high school in the 90s and it predated DVD menus and commentaries and things that the internet that help you really understand what are the jobs that are in film. I knew that I loved film and most of us who had an interest in it found our way to, you know, our high school theater program and you got on stage or you were in stage management and did theater. And then started to slowly understand through reading or exposure, okay, what are the jobs that you can do in this creative life? So I knew I got the bug. I knew I wanted to do something that had to do with theater and film. And I went to college and did an undergrad in acting. That was the natural next step. But I quickly started to put up theater in this little lab theater we had at University of Texas at Austin. All you had to do was make a proposal and they would let you put up a show. And so I would gather people and we would do different evenings of playwrights we were excited about or we wrote our own stuff sometimes. And I started to really enjoy doing that. Like I would see an actor and think, oh, they need a bigger role. Like this would be really fun. Let's find something for them. And we started to just take advantage of the theater space and do these things. And I had a friend who went ahead of me to Los Angeles and went to film school and said, no, I think you really should try, try making you know some movies and maybe you want to apply to grad school for film. So that's how I found my way into it and didn't really know a lot about filmmaking other than I loved films until I went to grad school and really made a study of it and tried to learn every possible thing I could. And eventually also found my way into teaching, which is how I met Tony Schwartz, a previous guest of yours, and came to be at this moment crossing paths with you. So yeah, that's kind of a meandering way at how I made it to here. And I've worked in television, mostly in post-production and reality. When I got out of film school, all the jobs were in reality television. Yeah, of course. I was very fortunate to get on some really cool shows that I learned a ton from. I was on Amazing Race for a number of years in post-production, which was a really fantastic experience. And then I worked on the Sylvester Stallone boxing show, The Contender. Again, something I never would have thought I would work on. I had no knowledge of boxing, but now I have come to realize I love boxers through that show. So, I mean, lots of little different directions I've been in, but eventually landed on producing independent movies and teaching when I'm not doing that. That's my story in a nutshell. It's a nice combination. Yes. I think it sounds like my combination, basically. Just different worlds. Well, you have a lot in common with my sister, actually, Susan Rogers, who's an indie filmmaker and also worked on The Amazing Race. Oh, wow. In production. I don't know what she, she was doing some kind of support role, you know, out there. Did you get to travel with that? I did all, I feel like I did. Yeah. I was in post-production. And so I watched every last frame of every season I worked on trying to find what stories do we have? What's, you know, what are the gems of footage that are coming back? And it was amazing seeing, amazing, seeing those places in a very different tempo than the actual show, which is fever pitch and a race. But watching it in that post-production way and finding the story, I really feel like I got a completely different exposure to those places. And it felt a little like I traveled with them, even though, no, I was in the comfort of my own chair here in Los Angeles. Now, were any of those places you were like, I got to go there, actually? Oh, for sure. I haven't. But Okay. no, Sorry. no, it's okay. But I did, Iceland was a place that I, they went that I just, I really got an impression of that being a place I would love to visit. And you'd really get a sense of the people because they run into so many strangers that they're encountering along the way. And you get a real sense of how generous so many people are around the world to be helpful. But Iceland stood out for sure. Wow. So it kind of helped you with your view of human nature. It did. Yeah. And it was a benefit that I think you get that from the show. I think the show is very well done, but it's not the purpose of the show. And so I feel like I'm one of only a handful of people that got those lessons from the show because they're not really part of the story. And did it help you with the Understand Narrative Arcs because you're there shaping the show out of all that footage? It really did. And I say this to my students all a, as a life lesson about the shows that come to you or the projects that come to you that you don't know why you might be working on them because they don't originally strike you as, you know, your brand or your type of, of project, but there's always something to be learned about about your your type type of of project project from from nearly nearly every, every, you you know, know, creative creative experience. experience.
Lessons from Reality TV
00:11:25
Speaker
And And I I did did feel feel that that I, I I definitely definitely learned learned about finding arcs in documentary because essentially that's what it is, but narrative as well. And perhaps more importantly, where to put the camera, you know, and how to adapt as something's unfolding to maybe capture something that wasn't what you originally thought the scene was about. And to not be so locked into the drama you thought was going to unfold or the moment that you thought was going to be the climax and to be open and thoughtful and adapting and move to the moments that are happening. And I watched the camera people do that so well. And then, of course, the sound also had to adapt and kind of find what the camera was doing. And I've definitely taken that lesson into being on set and being flexible and kind of really finding what the actors are doing, that might not have been planned, you know. That's awesome. That's something I actually say to my journalism students as well. Don't always go into a story thinking you know what the story is. You've got to sometimes let the story reveal itself to you. And that's how often did you go? Oh, geez. I really just wish they'd move the camera over like five feet or just so I had a slightly different shot or. Yeah, I did, but not very much. I mean, Oh my goodness. Cheers to the production crews on those shows. They are, they. They are incredible and just wonderful storytellers themselves. And they're physically working so hard to also be invisible. They really aren't orchestrating anything other than the timing of certain things. Occasionally it might be, oh, we need you to exit again or go through these doors or something for a transition, but really just technical. Otherwise, they are just so wonderfully capturing what's happening. That's very cool. Now you have produced your own indie features as well. Yes. So, and was your role primarily producer on those? Did you direct any of them or did you? Yes. The first feature I produced that kind of turned me into a producer happened sort of accidentally. And what's wonderful is, you know, some, I don't know, 25 years later, I just produced a short for the same filmmaker. So we came back together and that actually was, we just shot that in Canada, in Bayfield, Ontario. What? Yeah. It's just up the road from me. It's gorgeous. It's a beautiful town. Yeah, it is. It's beautiful. So that filmmaker was Alison Shelton. She was writing a lot of features, but kind of for the drawer. She was working as an assistant on The Simpsons, actually. So I went the reality route and she went the assistant route, which was kind of the two big options as we came out of film school and didn't know what to do with her scripts. And I was, I was able to be a beta reader kind of for her. And as I was reading them one day, I said to her, Oh, these are really producible. You should find a, you know, just an indie producer and put together a tiny budget. And as the words were coming out of my mouth, I was like, Oh, I think I just gave myself that job. I think I'm, I'm seeing my future in front of me that I'm, this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to produce one of these films. And, and that sort of, I drove home and told my husband, I think I'm going to be a producer. And one foot in front of the other, we managed to make that road movie. And that led to me saying, yeah, okay, I want to try to keep making these films. So being a producer then, and you said to her, you know, you should try to find some money. Yeah. So then you became the person finding the money. Yeah. Tell us about that. Was that, how hard was that? It was very hard. The first thing we did actually was try to find talent and money for a script she'd already written, which we budgeted at a million dollars. And we thought that's a really low budget movie. And it is, we did not have a a million million dollars dollars and we, which we knew, but we thought we're just going to keep the momentum. We're going to do what we can do to try to see if we can get support for this. And we were making inroads. I mean, we were getting pieces kind of put together, but it seemed so slow and so almost impossible that we said, well, we need talent. We need cast. We need, you know, we need somebody attached that might be able to open a different network of people. And, and so we went to Sundance that year just to watch a bunch of films and, and say, you know, maybe there's an actor or two that we see at the festival that we can meet and they're like about to take off and we can ride with them together and champion them. And instead, we came away inspired to write a different script. And we came away inspired to make something even smaller and to write something around the resources that we already had. Locations we had, people we had, and to just kind of go dock-sized crew and make a road movie. And so Allison quickly wrote a script that was based around those resources. And so we had to raise far less money. And then I said, okay, so now we can go to our smaller network with smaller amounts of money. And I opened an LLC and learned that entire process to have investors and start to understand, you know, on our level, how we could make it happen really quickly. And we did. I think we wrote, you know, she wrote the movie in March and we were filming by May and the production value is great because we just thought about what do we have that will look wow. It's a little Robert Rodriguez style. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a little bit like that. And so then I kind of learned on the job.
Transition to Directing
00:17:59
Speaker
I mean, I already knew a decent amount about producing from my coursework and my thesis, but I really learned doing that. And she obviously was producing along with me as it was a joint project, but that got the ball rolling and that kind of made me fall in love with producing beyond just directing. So yes, and to answer your question, I have directed one as well that, that got a little bit on the way side from COVID. So it's not finished yet that the one I directed and I've edited several with also my producing partner, Jen, we kind of wear hybrid positions on a lot of those films. What was the name of that road movie? Eve of Understanding. Eve of Understanding. Another one for our list, Mark. Yeah. Yeah. And it's the one in Bayfield? It's set in Bayfield? No. So Allison, then, she's a prolific writer. She's an essayist and kind of stepped away from filmmaking for a little while and then wrote a great comic called Reburn. And she partnered with this woman, Jess, actually, who she had met. They were assistants together way back when on The Simpsons. So Allison wrote a feature which we submitted for the Sundance Lab and we were trying to get going and attach Jess to it, the director. And similarly, she said, okay, I don't want to wait for this momentum. Let's make, I want to make something with this film. And so during the strike last year, Alison put together a short inspired by the feature and it's a proof of concept. And we went up to Jess, it lives in Bayfield and we went with a Canadian crew up there and filmed. And now that short is on the Fest circuit. And Jess is actively trying to raise money for the feature version of it, which she also hopes to shoot in Canada. I fell in love with shooting up there in Bayfield. The town completely came together for us. And we got the greatest sunsets on the lake and the talent there was incredible. That's very cool. Okay, now you got to come and shoot something in the Maritimes. I'm so excited to do that. No, and I fell in love with all these filmmakers up there that I want to work with again. So I definitely have to. Yeah. Now I want to ask you, so Mark and I are indie writers, you know, fiction and nonfiction. And, you know, the big question with indie writers is, are we content being indie writers or do we need to break into the big time? Is it the same with filmmaking? Are you content being an indie filmmaker or is there a desire to move into the next level, the Hollywood level?
Challenges in Indie Filmmaking
00:20:44
Speaker
Yeah. Being independent offers a lot that being in a higher budget level, while it expands your resources, it also offers less control. You can't collaborate necessarily with the same people that you would like to. And for me, you know, it's been a little bit of necessity. I'm sure you've heard the stats of women in these positions. They're real. And so, you know, like I tell my students, a lot of us, I work with a lot of women and we try to a lot of our DPs are women, which is more dismal stats than directors and producers. But we just don't want to wait for permission to make things. So definitely it's partially by design that we're in independent film, but it's also partially just, you know, the bigger projects take, there's more doors to open to get them going. And there's a longer life cycle then of the project as well. So the thing I would say that we would all appreciate is, you know, a sustainable career where we don't have to hunt so hard for the resource and money to both make the project and pay ourselves a wage that makes us feel like we don't have to do a thousand things in order to make one film. I think having a sustainable indie career is really challenging and requires a lot of creative scheduling and support and thinking about, well, what else can I use my skills for to make sure that I can keep making my art? But on the other side of it, you know, most of us, including myself, find our ways to bigger projects when we need to, to coincide with, you know, supporting ourselves. I just recently went into the immersive space and produced a feature length project for Cirque du Soleil and O, their Vegas Bellagio show. We did an immersive feature length project for these new venues for a company called Cosm that are doing these 360 viewing experiences. So I really enjoyed having the resources that we did on that project, but I also was really excited to come back and make something small. That's awesome. Yeah. And I think that's very similar to what we experienced. It's nice. I love what you said. It's nice not having to ask for permission. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's something very empowering and creative about it. It just feels more creative. Absolutely. I don't have to ask for permission on who I'm going to hire. I also don't have to ask for permission to start. I don't have to ask for permission about the content that I want to make. I can decide it's worthy as a story that is important to tell. I don't have to hear about, you know, the audience isn't big enough or, you know, someone else's assessment of it in that way. As long as I can find the investors that are excited about it, then I'm greenlit by my own process. And I, you know, I've come to feel like I have a really solid green lighting process to where the project will be successful. It'll finish. And the people who work on it will feel really good about their own experience. And that's important to me that, that the artists get to do something that they feel like was not a waste of their time, but, but in fact, you know, made their lives better in some way. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And you've been doing it for 25 years. So obviously it's working. Yeah. Sorry. I'm not supposed to say that in Hollywood. Sorry. They can't tell how old I am. They can't see me. She looks like a very young Meryl Streep is what she looks like. Do go on. Do go on. I want to ask you more about the role of women in filmmaking and diversity hiring.
Diversity in Filmmaking
00:24:48
Speaker
Can you talk a bit more
00:24:52
Speaker
yeah ah when i when i went to usc for grad school i was part of i think the first class or one of the first classes that was truly equal men and women meaning you know we were the the same number of men and women were admitted into our class. And it gave me, I think, a little bit of a false sense of the industry and that, you know, that there was more of a meritocracy and that I was at the number one film school in the world. And I had been anointed as somebody that I'd been vetted, you know, somebody that that could do this job and that was making films that were worthy of being seen. And to some degree, I think, you know, that was absolutely true in my experience. And but I I was definitely naive to, you know, the reality of of how challenging it would be to find a path to making films and finding my way into the industry. And that's me with, like I said, having the privilege of being at that institution. So I came to realize, oh, okay, well, if it's that way for me, um there are so many people that are wonderful storytellers that have no access to the resources you need in order to break into the industry. And over time, I've seen changes made. At first, I took it a little bit personally, because I just couldn't understand. And I thought, well, maybe I'm not, you know, maybe I'm not worthy of telling my stories. You know, maybe I need to do some more work ah and and grow. And pretty soon, I realized, okay, there's, there's something to be said here for the the statistics where it is really, really challenging. There's a lot of barriers, like any industry, but particularly, I think, Hollywood and the and the arts, there's a lot of barriers to to entry. And over time, I have seen changes. There's a lot of programs
00:26:58
Speaker
there's a lot of people talking about that and a lot of concern about trying to grow the type of of films and art we see and reading it with that lens and and and i think there's more discourse about it programs don't lead to job you know, are an asterisk on your resume, or maybe might help you meet a person that you could get your work in front of. But in terms of jobs, more discourse about it. I think it's still a really, really big challenge to change how people hire and how a woman who directs a feature gets a shot at a second one. I mean, the numbers are so grim about how long it takes for someone to get a next, even if they have a breakout. So my solution to that, to not be too disheartened, is just to try in my own way to hire an interview as I would like to see the world change and to talk with my students about it and help them realize that they are gatekeepers even on their student films and need to be thoughtful about the opportunities they give people to start to build a portfolio and start to build a career. You know, I think we have to be vocal about it. And I think I used to feel like maybe it came off as whiny to complain about it. You don't want to complain about it. But no, I think it's just acknowledging the reality and that there are so many stories that we want to hear and that our world is better for hearing different stories. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, When you miss out on all those perspectives, it's a problem. Yeah. Yeah. And I think people in charge of hiring, they need to do the extra work and not just go with who shows up the first time. Or who they've heard of. That's the feedback I hear a lot is someone who wants to, who hears this and says, absolutely, I want to hire more women. I want to hire more Asian Americans. I don't know any. And it's helping them say, yeah, you got to take that extra step to make that change. Get to know some. Yeah, yeah, exactly. They're out there. Okay, so halfway point, more or less, in the podcast. And I know you've done your homework that we asked you to do. Who is your creative pick that you wanted to talk
Veronica Mars: Influence and Casting
00:29:32
Speaker
about? I just got to say, Joe, very elegant segue. I have decided to talk about the show Veronica Mars, which is the Kristen Bell vehicle created by Rob Thomas. Excellent choice. I watched all three seasons and the movie of that. Mark, have you seen it? No. You got some good viewing ahead of you. This is one that I haven't seen. Yeah. This doesn't normally happen, so that's good. I love Kristen Bell. So, yeah. Yeah. Why is that your pick? Well, it's interesting, you know, thinking about back to our original talking about a, you know, strong female character of Anne with an E from Prince Edward Island. I think, you know, it immediately Veronica Mars shares with that story an incredible female character. And it's a bit of a coming of age again and again in the show, which I love coming of age stories, especially with women who come of age multiple times. And personally, the show to me, I did not watch it when it originally aired, I think 2004. I started it after I had my first baby and I was tied to the nursing chair and had no way to leave my seat and had a crying baby or a nursing baby. And I binged the first season on a recommendation and it was the greatest gift because the character was wonderful. It made me laugh. I thought from a filmmaking perspective, I did really feel like it was artful. I loved the cinematography. It's a noir. It's like a new noir set in a high school with this wonderful dynamic character who's sassy and also dealt with so many real things. It's an emotional show as well. So I was in the perfect spot in my own life to take the show in. And then the nature of the show from, you know, I see myself as a creative producer. And so I love all of those juicy storytelling things. But I also love the show as an example of someone not waiting for permission and to keep reinventing and finding a way to exist because the show had such an interesting production life. And Kristen Bell kind of comes of age as an artist through the different timelines of the production of the show. Because if you don't know, there's three seasons, which didn't all land at the same home. Then they crowdfunded a movie. Warner Brothers wasn't ready to make the movie, but they were willing to distribute the movie if it was done independently. And Rob Thomas and Veronica, sorry, Kristen. That's some good acting right there. They put together an amazing crowdfunding campaign, which was just, you know, mind blowing that they decided we can do this, even though, you know, the property already existed. And, and it was not a typical path of fundraising for a project that size. And then even after that, they put together another series, another show that on Hulu, not even anywhere near the CW where they began. And it's like nine, 10 years after. And so Kristen is now, she's a completely different performer. The show kind of launched her and now she's established. And so watching that as well. So it kind of affected me tremendously from the content, but also the producing story of it was so inspiring. Yeah. Now, I haven't seen that last season set so far. So far away. Yeah. And does it hold up? Yes. It's shorter. I think it's only eight to 10 episodes, but it ties up all the characters. You know, it makes the show complete. And it's very interesting. I mean, if you're a fan of the show, you're a fan of the characters and you just want to see them. And it follows a similar format in that, you know, each season has a major mystery. If you don't know, Veronica is a private eye. She's a detective working with her father in their private investigating company. And she's just in high school in the beginning. And she's in high school in the beginning. Yeah. So the first two seasons are high school. Then the third season is college. Then the movie when she's moved to New York and she's about to take a job as a lawyer. She's gotten out of the PI business. I can't wait for the nursing home. I know. No, there's a little bit of that like Richard Linklater thing, you know, of like seeing, you know, another. Boyhood. Yeah. Yeah. Or before the before trilogy, which was another candidate for talking to you. See, I'm going to sneak in all my candidates for talking to you about. Anyway, but you see those characters over several decades in different shows. And this was by accident that that happened. But the fans, you know, sort of. And I think the talent, the actors were really in love with these characters. And so those two things working together grew this fourth season after the crowdfunded movie. And I think it's wonderful. I think it's good that we'd move beyond the network model of 22 episodes. It's more like a limited series and it works. Yeah. Well, it's an interesting time period too, right? Because it's like, so it was on the CW and like, when was the fourth season? When was that? I think it was like 2016 maybe. Yeah. So that's quite a bit later. So yeah. Television has changed quite a bit in those 15 years or 14 years. Yeah. No, I have to give a shout out to a Canadian actor, Enrico Colantoni, who's he's, he's just so great. He's so wonderful. I had known him from Just Shoot Me, which I also, I loved that, you know, sitcom. And he's wonderful. And his relationship with Veronica is another major reason to enjoy the show, this father-daughter relationship that's so special. And even in the pilot, you know, it's set up that Veronica has sacrificed a lot of her social status because she believes in the integrity of her father and she believes in her father who had been the sheriff and was disgraced through his own. He had a mistake where he thought that someone really prominent in the community was responsible for a crime or was involved in a crime. And so he was shunned. But she, you know, she loses everything in a way for being with her father and standing with him. And that just starts this beautiful relationship that continues all the way through the series. And I think he really brings something to it where all good shows involving high school, I think, treat the high schoolers as full people with agency and who are learning about the world and have a lot to offer. And he had such respect, I think, for those characters that it gives another level to the show because then all the teenagers, it's not a patronizing view of what they're going through. And there's some heavy stuff that's addressed, even though it was on the network. Oh, yeah. You know, there's trauma. There's very real things that are part of why I was immediately taken with it, because it was speaking about rape culture, speaking about assault in really honest ways, and yet still making an entertaining show with a lot of variety in terms of storyline. And it wasn't just, and this is nothing against euphoria, but it wasn't on that sort of dark track. It was that's a fact of high school and of as and certainly a female life. And it was addressing it. And Enrico, I felt like, you know, gave all of that legitimacy in the way he performed with Kristen. I loved him so much in Galaxy Quest. Oh, yeah. Inspired. An inspired performance. Actually, that was one of the best moments of acting when he realizes these people lie for a living. That moment is just devastating. Yeah, yeah. He's so funny and so good at swinging between comedy and earnest, vulnerable, real connections. So vulnerable, yeah. Yeah. moments and also it will make you laugh because life is ridiculous. Now, as a professional in the film industry, I want to ask you, how wide do you think the target is when it comes to casting? If you had cast Veronica Myers with different actors, could it have still worked or how important was it that you had Enrico Colantoni and Kristen Bell? It would have been different. I feel like shows have a way of growing with the artists that make you feel like it couldn't have been any other way. But we feel that way about almost everything we love. So I think you have to feel when you go into a project that you're going to find the right person, but it's just like marriage or anything. I'm sure there are people who feel like there's only one right person, but I believe there's a lot of right people and it's a matter of timing and then collaboration. So it wouldn't have been the same. And it's hard for me to imagine who would have been the other person because they become one thing, Kristen and Enrico made it their own. It's very hard, especially with Kristen to think like, who else would have been Veronica? And maybe they wouldn't have found the person that was as wonderful as Kristen, you know, to bring it, to make it something that I want to now talk about however many years later. But I think there are so many, that's the wonderful thing about actors. You know, when I work with one that I love, I just want, I just am hungry to work with them on, on the, whatever that project is that will make them sing the best, you know? So I think, you know, I know with Veronica Mars, they, they saw like over 500 people and Kristen was just the one that spoke to Rob. And I know he felt that way about a lot of the roles. But when a story is good and a character is good, you have to believe there are so many wonderful actors finding their way to the project. There would have been somebody, but it wouldn't have been the same. It would have been totally different. Could you, could you bring your husband in? I want to ask him about the marriage casting. And with that, Joe brings the podcast to a dead hole. Well, I've just, I was okay. I'll jump in and try to save the day. So thinking about casting, I remember well, well before Peter Jackson made the Lord of the Rings movies, one of the favorite conversations my brother and I used to have on our long canoe trips together was how do we cast the Lord of the Rings? And we would get into shouting arguments in the middle of a lake about, no, they could never do it. And yeah, I don't think anybody that we thought of was cast in that movie, but it was such great casting. It was great casting. And now it's like, you know, I mean, Vigo is, come on. It's impossible to think of anyone else's air. And yet he was cast. He was cast at the last minute. I know. So it's the magic happened. But you have to believe that we still would have adored that movie. But I don't know how. Yeah. It would have been a different experience, though, right? Yes. Yeah. The actors are very important to the process. And Gandalf. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me ask you then. Have you ever thought or would you like to work on a series like Veronica Myers? Well, it's funny because I that that I did. It did strike me that I'm not really involved in television as much as as features and short form. But yeah, I do think that particularly as a director, I would love to work in episodic television, even though film is more of a director's medium and television, you're a little bit work for hire because the showrunner is setting the tone and what the show is. But I think the speed, I like that production life and working with the actors. I think I would, I would love that, you know, as a creator, nothing's come to me yet where, you know, definitely things have happened where I thought, Oh, that could be a limited series and idea I have, but generally the ideas that come to me are more in the feature space, but I would love, I definitely have aspirations to, to be in the director's chair in television. I think that would be great fun. Do you have, for people looking to be a producer, because I've always thought of the role of producer as very intimidating, you know, being the one to have to primarily generate the funds and frequently a lot of funds for some of these movies, because even indie film can be, I know professional filmmakers don't think, you know, $250,000 is a lot of money, but for someone just starting out, that would be a fair amount of money. What advice would you have for people looking to get into that game? How do you go about that? Well, the biggest thing I could say about becoming an indie producer is to just start producing work. And that means going back to making a list of what resources do you have? Whose stories do you want to champion? And how can you make those two things align? And you start small that way. But there's no reason that a small story that's captured with tools that are inexpensive can't make a splash and start to build for you on to the next project that now that you have a wider network and aren't afraid to ask for things and to excite people about it, you start to grow both the resources you have to shoot with, but also the people you have to draw on and bring in to collaborate. And you never know what door is going to open once you start talking passionately about the project and the biggest thing you can do is invite people to make an impact with you versus just give you money to make something. You know, you have to start to think of the people that invest in you, both in their time and as an audience and eventually with money as patrons of the art. For example, one of the features we made was called Quality Problems. And it's a comedy about breast cancer. And in raising money, those things don't always go together, right? I'm already sold. In raising money and trying to get people on board for the project, we came across this feedback as we were building our campaign that said, you know, you've got to try to bring people on board by asking them to help you give cancer the middle finger. You know, when you support this movie, when you collaborate on this movie, you're doing something bigger than just telling this one story. You're saying to survivors that you see them. You're speaking directly to caretakers and saying it's okay to laugh. We can have power over cancer by laughing at it and laughing at something gives you power over it. And that sort of approach is the kind of approach I think you have to have with every project. And it's what empowers you to feel bigger than just that little ask, you know, or that one person. You're able, just like, you know, a lot of times we don't like talking about ourselves. Talking about your project can feel very intimidating. But when you can find your way with the project to what's the impact I want this to have on the world or my audience, even if my audience is only three people, you know, what impact am I trying to have? That's what I'm selling. That's what I'm trying to get people on board with. And suddenly your voice gets louder and you seem bigger in the room and people want to get on that train and that's producing, you know, I think, and giving yourself permission to do that and be who you are, no matter what stage you are in the journey, you know, also tell producers, young producers or people who are starting to produce mid-career, you know, you shouldn't pretend to know things you don't, just be where you are and be honest about what your skill sets are and what you know and what you don't know. And just that energy means so many more people want to help you and meet you where you are. You'll be surprised at how much support you can get. Sometimes you're asking about the wrong project. If there's not momentum, you got to shift and be ready to try a different project. The timing might not be right. You're learning, you're getting feedback. This isn't, or I don't have the right pitch. Great advice. Yeah. I love that. I love that so much. Yeah. And if I had any sense, I would stop there because that's a great, but I don't. So, but no, I just want to ask, is there anything else you would like to say about Veronica Myers or the subject of producing an indie filmmaking? Yeah, I do hope that people will revisit Veronica Mars. I think that Kristen Bell is a really special performer. And I think there aren't enough characters that I certainly didn't
00:48:05
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you know when she was in high school i do think that the fan base for veronica who are called marshmallows by the way um and didn't know that yeah there's a line why it's a line in the pilot or an early episode where her friend Wallace calls her a marshmallow and everyone like kind of just hooked onto that line and then they became marshmallows. In any case, there's know that. a great love story in the show, but it's secondary to Veronica just trying to find justice. And part of the justice is the crime she's investigating, but part of the justice i think, is something that, you know, is kind of a theme in all of these things of women being seen for their agency and for what they can bring to the table. And I think Veronica is fighting for that and trying to, like, trust the world and trust then in her love story, you know, trust that she can be who she wants to be and that the world is going to receive her and that that she can be vulnerable. And i I'm amazed that Rob Thomas found that ah the character was originally a male in in this book he wrote, and then he he converted it. He thought, no, female in this noir setting is more interesting, but it's beyond more interesting. I feel like he found you know something that um that works on so many levels. So anyway, it speaks to me. It continues to speak to me at each stage of my life. And and I hope that there's it it could get written off as just a CW show about high school. And I think the fact that there's this much interest in it from the fans and continue to be over the years, I think it speaks to something, you know, more layered. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You made me think actually of the comparisons to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. is Yeah, that's what I was thinking about. But you sold me. I'm going to watch it. All right. Okay, but the question for you, Mark, is as ah Jen's ah friend and colleague, Tony Schwartz, came on and was you know trying to sell us on The Wire, which one are you going to watch first? Well, I've already but i've already bought the DVDs for The Wire, so I have to watch The Wire first, and then i watch then I'll watch Veronica Mars. I think Veronica is a good palate cleanser to the wire. I think I'm going to need something like that. The wires is intense. Every time I get the DVDs out, I'm like, I don't know if I'm ready for this right yet. And you're not. It's a little bit like exercising. If you put the clothes on once you start moving, you're like, I'm glad I did that. But with the wire, it's a little bit like seeing this tennis shoes and the weights in the corner. like oh ah I do work out and I keep working out. And that's exactly it my relationship with it. It's good for your soul. It's good for everything. Your soul, your mind. Yes. Similar to the wire. yeah What I'm going to do is I'm going to watch that fourth season of Veronica Mars that I haven't seen yet. And then I'll think about going to The Wire. Okay. All right. I think that's great. Jen Prince, thank you very much for being on our podcast, Recreative. It was my great pleasure. I loved it. Thank you. Lovely to meet
00:51:46
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You've been listening to Recreative, a podcast about creativity you. Likewise. and the works that inspire it. Recreative is produced by Mark Rayner and Joe Mahoney for Donovan Street Press Inc. in association with Monkey Joy Press. Technical production of music by Joe Mahoney, web design by Mark Rayner. You can support this podcast by checking out our guests work listening to their music purchasing their books watching their shows and so on you can find out more about each guest in all of our past episodes by visiting recreative.ca that's re-creative.ca you can contact us by emailing joemahoney at donovanstreetpress.com. we'd love to hear from you
00:52:29
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thanks for