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Timothy S. Johnston on David Cronenberg's The Fly
2 Playsin 17 hours
Mark and Joe welcome back Timothy S. Johnston, who’s quickly becoming Re-Creative's resident monster movie expert. But not just any monster movie — only the best. Having previously dissected John Carpenter’s The Thing for Re-Creative, Timothy returns to remind the boys of the brilliance of Canadian director David Cronenberg’s 1986 masterpiece The Fly on the occasion of its 40th-anniversary.
Timothy clearly knows his stuff; he’s come well prepared with a bevy of facts and trivia about the making of The Fly along with a thoughtful analysis of what makes the movie special.
Re-Creative is a co-production of Donovan Street Press Inc. in association with MonkeyJoy Press.
Contact us at: contact@donovanstreetpress.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Tease
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello, Mark. Hello, Joe. what do you know? Ah, boy. What do I know? and It's not about what I know tonight. It's about what our guest knows. ah That is true. yes Yes. I have actually a question about that that I think tangentially relates to to what we're going to be talking about.
Pest Discussion: Millipedes & Mosquitoes
00:00:27
Speaker
Do you have a least favorite pest?
00:00:30
Speaker
A least favorite? That's an interesting way to put it. You mean a pest that I hate most? What do you hate the most? Yeah, in terms of pests. and there's these bugs that show up in the house occasionally that I don't think they're dangerous or anything, but I just kind of, it's very superficial of me, but I hate the look of them.
00:00:53
Speaker
Oh, are they millipedes? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, millipedes. I call them gribblies. Well, that's my cats call them gribblies. Does your cat actually call them gribblies? Yeah. He says, I will eat the gribbly for you, master. Okay. We're gonna have to talk about that later. Yeah. But okay. So, and what are your feelings? in Oh, this mosquito with a bullet. I mean, there's no question.
00:01:14
Speaker
Okay. yeah Yeah. That's, that's the worst. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, probably I like mosquitoes even less than millipedes because millipedes ever suck my blood. yeah Yeah, exactly. And millipedes don't, as far as I know, spread malaria.
00:01:29
Speaker
No. Shall we turn to our Our guest might have an answer for this question.
Welcome Back Timothy S. Johnson: Favorite Movies
00:01:33
Speaker
Timothy S. Johnson, welcome to the podcast. Welcome back. Welcome back. Thank you. Thank you for having me back. And I was suspecting that you were going to segue into a discussion with flies being ah a pest that you dislike the most.
00:01:46
Speaker
Gee, why did he bring up flies? Or the Brundlefly, perhaps. Yeah, that's right. Thank you so much for having me back. ah Last time I was here, we discussed one of my favorite movies and one of the greatest sci-fi horror films of all time. And that was The Thing. Yes. 1982, John Carpenter.
00:02:03
Speaker
And since that time, um Carpenter has not only received a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, but the movie has been inducted into the National Film Registry at the Library of Congress in the United States. So great happenings for the thing. Rumors continue to circulate about a sequel to that movie.
John Carpenter's 'The Thing': Cultural Impact & Sequel Rumors
00:02:22
Speaker
Oh, really? Blumhouse Pictures, is is ah they keep dropping hints about it. I'm not sure how would work or what they would do, but um the film still resonates um all these years later, 45 years later. That's a great movie. The ending's open-ended, right? like It sort of makes you think that maybe it's possible the thing has escaped Antarctica.
00:02:44
Speaker
So that would be a good sequel. That's a very apocalyptic sequel. Well, as soon as that um podcast ended, I got to thinking ah i had such a great time at the Recreative podcast with Joe and Mark. I would love to come back. And I immediately started thinking, what movie would i most like to talk about in the same vein as the thing? So I would be thinking about movie.
00:03:06
Speaker
ah film that was based on a well-regarded sci-fi text or speculative fiction text. Can I guess? Is it the millipede?
Pitching 'The Fly': Personal Sci-Fi Memories
00:03:14
Speaker
No. a remake that that occurred in the 80s that was even better than than the original. And so obviously I settled on the fly. And so I pitched the fly to you and you for having me back.
00:03:27
Speaker
So is the is a fly like your least favorite pest? Or your most hated past? No, not at all something else not at all. Not at all. i would For that, I would say so Spider.
00:03:38
Speaker
And there was a movie that traumatized me from back in the 70s that you may be familiar with. It's not arachnophobia. That was a eighty s film, I believe. It would have been... was William Shatner in William Shatner. I think it was Kingdom of the Spiders, if I'm not mistaken. that And it had one of the most incredible endings in film.
00:03:58
Speaker
I don't know if you remember it, Joe. I remember watching that movie with my best friend at the time, Kevin Brown, when I was, I think, 13 years old at his place in Sydney, Cape Breton, at two in the morning, eating a burnt almond chocolate bar. That's... that's how so Are you terrified by burnt almond chocolate bars now? No, I still love burnt almond chocolate bars. And earlier that day, we played ping pong together with the Farkinsons. Well, you know what? You share that fear with my brother. He's an arachnophobe as well. Yeah, yeah that that movie that movie just absolutely terrified me. because I was you know under 10 years old watching my one of my probably my first hero, superhero, which was Captain Kirk.
00:04:43
Speaker
yeah Watching him battle battle these spiders and the end scene is just this long camera as it pulls back from the house. And it's just a terrifying image. Wow. But that is not the movie you want to talk about tonight. No, not not at all. So I pitched The Fly to you to yeah because it fits in the same vein as The Thing. And i have done my due diligence and prepared for this. And I just want to mention some of the movies that came out the year that The Fly came
1986 Film Nostalgia: 'The Fly' Highlight
00:05:10
Speaker
out.
00:05:10
Speaker
And you could see. Oh, this is going to out. What year was that? So 1986, we're at the 40th anniversary right now. Okay. Oh my God. How old are we? Believe it or not. Listen to the movies that were out this year. Okay.
00:05:23
Speaker
In no particular order. Aliens, Big Trouble Little China, Stand By Me, Ferris Bueller's Day Off, Highlander, Hoosiers, Karate Kid Part 2, Platoon, Heartbreak Ridge, Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home, Top Gun, The Hitcher,
00:05:40
Speaker
The Name of the Rose, The Delta Force, Cobra, Raw Deal, The Golden Child, Pretty in Pink, and I won't mention Howard the Duck and Maximum Overdrive. yeah But those were some of the movies that came out that year. It it was a stellar year film. Yeah, that's pretty good. I currently have an article up on my blog, Life After Gateway, about the 40th anniversary fortieth anniversary of those films. And it seems like I'm not sure if as many movies are being made nowadays or um the the quality of films are just different. But back then there was one, two, three movies every single week that came out. And every Friday or Saturday night we would go to see a movie. There was never a week where there wasn't a good choice.
00:06:25
Speaker
Do you remember those days? The 70s and 80s and in the films? Well, and I'm so glad it was then actually when I had the time, and the inclination to go to movies. because Yeah, I think I saw i was in you all of the movies that you listed yes in the theater.
00:06:39
Speaker
But it was a different world then, man. It was a different ecosystem too. like the The way that movies get produced now is very different from from what what happened then. So yeah like it's really not fair to compare. And I would suspect that probably more movies get made now.
00:06:55
Speaker
but we just don't have the same sort of common water cooler kind of approach to watching them, right? We don't all go see movies. But are they as good now? good Yeah. When you said that list, actually, it reminded me of another great year in in movies that that William Goldman ah mentioned in his book, Adventures in the Screen Trade, which was 1939, the year that The Wizard of Oz came out. Gone with the Wind, right? Yeah. Gone with the Wind. Yeah. Like the most popular movie. Apparently it still is the most successful movie in open in theaters. Adjusted for inflation. Adjusted for inflation. And looking at just ticket sales. But but but back in the eighty s it it was a special time for films because it was probably the birth of the action film and the action hero. the Dr. Diehard. Yeah. yeah
00:07:44
Speaker
ah ah And also the the decade of of body horror, of which the fly is ah is a part, and also the decade of slasher films like Friday the 13th and Nightmare. Never get into those. Yeah, they weren't my jam either. but yeah We share that aesthetic. It's not my thing. Yeah. yeah But it was it was the decade of the slasher film, without much question. So um I'm happy to be here to talk about The Fly and the 40th anniversary of it. And I just wanted to mention those those films.
00:08:14
Speaker
I wanted to talk, too, about the, just going back a little bit to the original source material of The Fly.
Background of 'The Fly': George Langeland's Influence
00:08:19
Speaker
So it was written by a guy named George Langelan. French writer who had an amazing history, actually a spy during World War II, who had plastic surgery on his face to to change his features. Really? The guy who wrote The Fly? The guy who wrote The Fly, yeah. So many of these writers that wrote these seminal works in science fiction or what have you had just these incredible...
00:08:44
Speaker
backstories, which are almost too unbelievable to comprehend. He was eventually captured by the Nazis, ah interred in a POW camp, and he was scheduled to be executed and he escaped. He escaped, he made it to England, trained and landed in Normandy and fought.
00:09:03
Speaker
and help liberate his own country from the Nazis during World War II. And he ended up as a writer and he wrote the the short story, The Fly in 1957, and it became a movie in 1958. And James Clavel, who wrote Shogun, yeah ah that that famous novel Shogun, and he wrote the screenplay for The Great Escape, ended up writing the screenplay for The Fly. So it became a movie in 1958. Oh, really? I did not know that. Starring Vincent Price. ah Not black and white, it was color movie. in 1958 and in the theater in Toronto was, I guess he was a 15 year old teenager was watching this movie, the fly. And who was it? It was David Cronenberg in the theater watching the fly and David Cronenberg, obviously he's, he grew up and became one of Canada's most storied,
00:09:54
Speaker
directors probably up there. If you're talking about the greatest directors in Canada, you'd be talking about James Cameron. you'd You'd be talking about um David Cronenberg name escapes me who directed ah Dune and Prisoners, Denny Denis Villeneuve. Denis Villeneuve, right. right so So those three. So so David Cronenberg was in the theater watching um
Cronenberg's Adaptation: Technology and Disease Themes
00:10:17
Speaker
The Fly. And it's a commonality that i that I see in all the great directors in that they they are obviously movie files. And they watched all of these amazing science fiction films from the 40s. They also read the pulp magazines like Analog and Amazing Stories. They read all those. They were educated, yeah. Yes. and educated In the right way. Yeah. In the genres that I happen to love. So, but at the time David Cronenberg was watching the movie and he wasn't struck by how great this film was. And in fact, I recently watched the film to, to prepare for this. And I was struck by, you know, it's, it's a good movie. It's more, ah it's more a great idea searching for,
00:10:57
Speaker
a great movie it is a great It is a great idea, but there there are some things that are lacking. There's a lack of characterization. You don't know why. because you're talking about the original now? I'm talking about the original fly, 1958. You don't know why the scientist is is is working in this field. you You don't know much about them at all. You don't know much about Vincent Price at all. He's the brother of the scientist.
00:11:19
Speaker
ah But it's told as a murder mystery when the wife murders the inventor. And you're wondering why did the wife murder the inventor? But David Cronenberg watched this. And in that movie, the the head of the fly is transposed with the head of the inventor.
00:11:36
Speaker
And the the left arm of the fly is transposed with the left arm of the inventor. But it's a full-size fly head. I don't know if you've seen this movie, 1958. The inventor has a full-size flyer. Help me! Help me! That famous line. Right, that famous line, I think, is why this movie is as iconic as it is. Because the movie is not, I mean, it's good, but it's not really that special. It's that ending that people remember.
00:12:02
Speaker
The help me, help me! And the the fly the the part human fly caught in the spider web at the very end. Help me, help me! It traumatized people who who saw the movie.
00:12:12
Speaker
And Cronenberg was watching it and he thought, why is it a full-size fly head? That doesn't make any sense at all. If the fly's head got transposed with the humans and it's a human the human head on the fly is this tiny little thing, why is the fly's head on the human?
00:12:28
Speaker
so huge and the flyer it doesn't make any sense
Casting Risks and Awards Success
00:12:31
Speaker
so he was a very discerning audience member which many many people but yeah many many people just did did not um think about that or or it didn't bother them and Cronenberg had bothered immensely so Cut forward to the eighties and k Cronenberg has has done scanners. He's done shivers. He's he's pretty well regarded as a filmmaker of horror. And Mel Brooks, of all people, the the comedian, um Blazing Saddles and History of the World has a production company and they're looking for a director of The Fly. And the screenwriter says, hold my beer. the screen The screenwriter. Oh, there's no one better to do that than. Yeah, exactly. so So Cronenberg looks at the script and it's written by Charles Pogue.
00:13:16
Speaker
And Charles Pogue had cleverly looked at what it was that made the fly so great back then. It's it's a story about about a fear of technology. and how technology can sometimes go sideways. In fact, in the in the book written by George Langeland, the very first page, couple the first couple of paragraphs, in fact, are talking about how the phone is such a, ah like the rotary phone, right? Back then, um the wired telephone is such a nuisance. We put them in their house and then we become beholden to them. We become beholden to technology. We're now at its mercy. If it rings, you have to get it within just a few calls. You have to drop everything you're doing to go answer the phone.
00:13:54
Speaker
And it's a theme that runs through that first movie. And so um Charles Pogue ah took it and he and he moved the story, transformed it into the 80s. Whereas it wasn't a fear so much of technology of atoms disintegrating and reintegrating atoms. It's a fear of disease, a fear of of um of technology of the 80s, understanding of DNA, understanding of genes, gene therapy, our genome. gene sequencing.
00:14:24
Speaker
um And he cleverly incorporated all that into the script. So it became not a transposition of a head and an arm, which Cronenberg didn't like, but it was a fusion of the DNA into the subject.
00:14:37
Speaker
yeah And Cronenberg read that script and loved it because it bypassed that whole issue that he had with it, with that original story, which was the head and the arm. but and yeah It was silly. so And little known fact, if you read George Langland's book, there's a cat involved as well.
00:14:52
Speaker
the The scientist at the end of the story isn't just part fly. He's part cat good because he he also transmitted his cat Dandolo, which is a white cat. And his face became a cat's face. Well, that can't be so bad becoming part cat. but Becoming part cat. Right. yeah But once again, it was a full size, a human size cat, cat face.
00:15:15
Speaker
Yeah. Obviously, Koinenberg had an instinctive understanding of the conservation of mass, right? Yeah, absolutely. yeah He was a discerning audience member. He knew exactly where he wanted to go with it. That wasn't possible. So, put in their explanation. Absolutely. yeah And remember, it was a decade of body horror and gore and makeup effects like the thing. And so he took Chuck Pogue's script and he liked all that as all that material in it. But what he didn't like were the relationships.
00:15:42
Speaker
so So he rewrote it. And so it's technically a collaboration between Pogue and Cronenberg. And Cronenberg did all the relationships. He did the characters. He came up with the name Brundlefly. He created this relationship between Veronica or Ronnie and Brundle.
00:16:00
Speaker
And so it became a tragic romance with a tragic ending, which is one of the similarities between this and the thing. is the ending of the actual movie. Uh, and so he, he did an incredible bit of writing and the fly 1986, the movie is a brilliant work of art now because of k Cronenberg's, um, and Charles Pogue's script that that they created together. Yeah. Those performances, uh, the performances of Jeff Goldblum and, um, Gina Davis are just, mah they're just perfect. absolutely incredible the li is so great yeah yeah and she is too she's she's got i mean not enough not as much to do as he does but i i don't know really remembered her as much as i remembered him from that movie she was more known for um comedies at the time yeah so so they took her on and they took a chance on her and they also took a chance on jeff goldblum he wasn't a well-known
00:16:56
Speaker
actor he'd been Was that his breakout movie? Yes, it was. He'd been around for a while. been around in bit parts. He was in Invasion of the Body Snatchers in 1978. And um they they brought him in on this and Mel Brooks took ah actually took a chance on Jeff Goldblum, but he bo he hit it out of the park. And in fact, it um the movie was so well regarded, it won an Oscar for Best Makeup.
00:17:21
Speaker
Chris Wallace won won yeah um the Oscar for Best Makeup. And at the Saturn Awards, it won Best Horror. And Jeff Goldblum won Best Actor in a horror film that year. I'm just trying to imagine how upset the guy that did the makeup for name of the rose was at not winning. or Maximum overdrive. How did the duck have you seen him with the rose? I recently watched name of the rose and it's like, Oh my God, the makeup guy went nuts.
00:17:47
Speaker
I remember, I remember Christian Slater in I remember Sean
Teenage Impact of 'The Fly'
00:17:51
Speaker
Connery, of course. And I remember, um, Ron Perlman, I believe. ron Yeah. The makeup on Ron Perlman was just, I mean, all of them though, like, or the, whoever was doing the hair, uh, was incredible.
00:18:01
Speaker
Just as, just as we were saying, it's stellar year for film. Yeah. Um, the, the, the movie, the fly, um, filmed in, in Toronto, David Cronenberg films, most movies in Toronto. Uh, and you can see the CN tower in the background of films in the film. And, um,
00:18:16
Speaker
He likes to film in Toronto and many of this of the places you can actually still go to today. You can go to the bar where, where um do you remember? I don't know if you remember the the scene at all where where he had the arm wrestling contest and he broke. Oh, it breaks the guy's arm. It breaks the guy's wrist. More on that soon. ah You can go see where the lab was in Liberty Village. You can you can see see the... um ah Well, they filmed the hospital scenes at Toronto General Hospital and they were in Kensington Market during the romance sequence as well.
00:18:47
Speaker
So I was in grade 11 at the time when the movie came out. And at the time we heard about The Fly and we we knew the movie from from three decades earlier, but we thought it was just going to be a schlocky horror film. And I was in grade 11. I was only 16. I actually couldn't see the movie.
00:19:05
Speaker
I wasn't 18 years old. I was born in 1970. So I was 16 years old when the film came out. but I remember vividly, I was in a grade 12 computer class. We were doing Fortran, which you may now know is a dead, is it a dead language? I think it's dead language. I did that class too at some point. And people, people were coming into the classroom on a Monday talking about this movie. And even the girls were talking about how incredible this movie was and how sad it was and how, what a great romance it was and tragic it was. And that really made me,
00:19:39
Speaker
sit up and take notice because people were talking about this horror film and I was a big fan of horror at the time, body horror and slasher films of of that nature, of course. And I sat up and took notice and I made it a point to see this mil this film and boy, I was not disappointed. um Do you guys have a recollection of when you first, when it came on your radar, when you first saw it?
00:20:01
Speaker
what would your What your thoughts were? I saw it that year. um' I would have been at Queens. So i'm proud i mean I can't remember the name of the theater, but I can see it in my mind on Princess. I know I saw it in the theater as well. Yeah. yeah And it was, i mean, i don't know that I loved it the way that you loved it, but I certainly appreciated it. I like the, like like I said, I really liked the performances. i liked the concept of of taking DNA and mixing it and creating something new. a Chimera. And like, I don't know that I'd really read much about that.
00:20:37
Speaker
So that idea to me was quite interesting. Right. So, so we also have to remember the time period that we're talking 1986 for this and for the thing, it was 1982. And at the time HIV was, um, Oh yeah yeah h and nine was yeah. It was, it was more than in the news, man. was yeah yeah I mean, I don't know about you, Joe, but like, I was very aware of that and I was quite aware of what was going on with HIV.
00:21:02
Speaker
I don't think we'd actually anyone had identified the virus at that point. was still, it was, it was a, it was a massive story. And even Carpenter when he filmed yeah um the thing was aware of it and was was, it was part of the subtext of the film and in the um community scenes, where the guys were playing ping pong or playing video games, there were signs on the back saying, you know, watch it like vintage VD signs. At the time it was called venereal disease. ah aht Like they're not labeled chum is was on the poster. And and it's kind of a reference to the sub subtext. Reviewers have also pointed this out about the fly, that that it could be an allegory toward disease and a fear of of who who had certain
Themes of Mortality and Societal Fears
00:21:48
Speaker
diseases. But k Cronenberg has has actually said it's it's less about HIV and disease than it is about our mortality and fear of of dying. and And the movie should be seen from the disease's point of view. And as a disease...
00:22:03
Speaker
takes its course and what it does to people. And, and so it's about mortality and it's been compared to, it's been called Kafkaesque. So Kafka, who was, interesting it was, it was, when I, when I, I think when I, mortality when I saw it, I had read for the first time I'd read Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.
00:22:23
Speaker
So I'd read it like I'd read that probably in my first year and this came out in my second year. But that was pretty fresh in my mind when I saw this movie. And the connections to Frankenstein were really obvious to me, like the hubris of of the Jeff Goldblum character. Right.
00:22:40
Speaker
Is the reason he turns into the fly. And it's the hubris of Frankenstein who turns, who creates the monster. And I kind of went, yeah, but I like, I like that turn, right? like in this, in this story, Frankenstein becomes the monster.
00:22:57
Speaker
it It was nice. it was really nice turn. Yeah. it's it's tempting fate it's playing god it's it's um messing with science messing with things that you shouldn't and cronenberg played with um these gothic horror slash romances in this movie uh elements of frankenstein and the scientist becomes the monster but the monster also wants a bride and and that's part of it it's also part of beauty and the beast and it's also part hunchback of notre dame And all three of these elements can be can be seen in in the fly. So one of the one of the things that intrigues me about both the thing and the fly as remakes and as the best remakes ever made, ah possibly, in my humble opinion
Purpose and Depth of Film Remakes
00:23:41
Speaker
anyways. Yeah. is that many people feel that remakes are made simply to make make money. They're gratuitous. They're just make money. It's just to get that audience who enjoyed that first film to come back and watch it. So I'm not about sequels right now. I'm talking about remakes. um But this is not a gratuitous remake in any way. It's reflective of the times in in ways that the first movie,
00:24:02
Speaker
was reflective of that time and an understanding of the atom and disintegrating and reintegrating atoms and technology and how these technologies have affected our lives. In fact, the the character, ah ah helein Helena, in the original Fly is talking about rockets and satellites and how their lives have been changed by those things. But in this movie, it's more reflective of society in the 80s in terms of of disease, viruses,
00:24:29
Speaker
genes, gene sequencing, gene um therapies and mess and dna DNA. Now DNA was discovered in 1953. So, so slightly before the first movie came out, but it was not in the popular yeah yeah understanding. And also, i mean, we hadn't, we hadn't sequenced the human genome yet. I mean, that was still like another 14 or 15 years away. Right. Right. It was, it was the, um yeah, it was the double helix that was discovered in 53. I should just clarify that. Yeah. so We don't want angry email around that. Yeah. um I just imagine the angry nerds yelling at their their screens. or really yeah yeah so Something that i've that I noted about this film when I was watching it, and just full disclosure here I watched ah The Fly 1958 a couple of
Exploring 'The Fly's' Structure and Characters
00:25:19
Speaker
days ago. I watched The Fly today just to prepare for this. And I read George Langolans. I read it a few times, but I read it again to prepare for this.
00:25:27
Speaker
But um I just wanted to to talk about the structure of this. It's absolutely absolutely a work of art. It's it's structured like a play. You may have noticed Act 1, Act 2, Act 3. It's actually a four character play and it could be put on very easily. The four characters being Seth Brundle, Ronnie,
00:25:45
Speaker
the the sleazy boss but publisher boss um status borans who's the the publisher of of particle magazine and he's comes across uh if you recall the film he comes across as this horrible person at the start who's just once Ronnie for himself, just for physical purposes. But then as the movie plays on, his character becomes more, um is brought more to the forefront. And he actually becomes a heroic figure who's who's ah who who goes and sacrifices himself
00:26:18
Speaker
body and limbs, literally, so i say to save Ronnie. That's the one scene that I hate the most. One of the greatest scenes in horror history. It's so gross. yeah The vomit drop and the ah the hand and the and the leg. andre These sequences in the film make it iconic because people remember it and they talk about it.
00:26:39
Speaker
Here we are four decades later, we're still talking about that scene. I know. Act one, would end with Seth's first teleportation.
00:26:51
Speaker
Act two would focus on his mental decline and ends with um the computer telling him that you've been fused with a fly. And then act three. So if act two is a mental decline, act three is absolutely his physical decline, his rotting body just disintegrating. And Cronenberg, in fact, makes a point of saying, um you know how he had to, you know how Seth had a museum in his in his bathroom? He opened the the medicine cabinet. Yeah, of like all the pieces that have always here. Here's my fingernails. Yeah. there's There's other pieces in there too, if you look closely. ah But he makes a point of saying, we're that's not just Seth. That's all of us. We're all going to have a museum like that, whether it's metaphorical or or or real, a physical museum. it's our
00:27:38
Speaker
This movie is about our our own mortality, and that we're all kind of rushing toward this this ultimate ultimate ending. Yeah, I think it was the cheerfulness of the movie that really grabbed me, i think. It was the positive message, yeah. Because earlier you asked, you know do you remember you know when it it first made an impression on you? And and I don't remember anything be before actually seeing it in the theater.
00:28:06
Speaker
But I do know that I left the theater appreciating the movie, like Mark, but being disturbed by it. um disturbed by the visuals or by the concept of this decaying human being? Yes.
00:28:22
Speaker
That's right. Yeah, yeah absolutely. i'm ah um I'm now having a visceral memory of of who I saw it with, which is my hostmates at the time. Lisa and Jackie and they were really disgusted by that movie um but it is such a such a at the same time it's such a great romance that ends in in absolute tragedy I think both of I think that kind of went over there or not maybe not over their heads but just like that was lost in the body horror because I don't know that like if you're watching body horror movies Probably this movie, you could like not see that as the dominant thing and actually pick out the other stuff. But I think if you hadn't seen a lot of body horror, I think the body horror in Cronenberg is so extreme that that's really all you can see on the first viewing.
00:29:11
Speaker
And now that might be me, but I think that was certainly Jackie and that was my reaction too. yeah It is an element that does kind of overshadow some of the other, because I appreciated your bringing up the the reverse character arc. yeah You mentioned you know the the the character appears to be the villain at the beginning evolves into the hero, whereas the person who we relate to become you know Because ah Jeff Goldblum is so relatable. And I think that's a little bit of the the jarring um nature of the movie is that, wait a minute, it's ah you' somebody that you relate to and then they turn out to be a kind of a jerk, which is something actually have noticed in the on the show, The Pit recently. i don't know if you guys are watching that, where the You know, the main doctor, Robbie, ah is so relatable and empathic, and then he becomes a little bit of an asshole. And I'm like, I always find it interesting when they do that. Take this charming, charismatic actor like Jeff Goldblum, like the actor who plays Robbie, and turns them into a bit of a jerk or or ah a villain in the case of The Fly. Right. ah In this case, it's a reversal that Cronenberg wrote deliberately. Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course. It's intentional. Yeah, of course. But all the body horror that that people remember is only from Act 3. There's no body horror in Act 1 or 2 at all. It's just that third act. um But but his his focus on character is so deliberate that it that it it it caught me...
00:30:40
Speaker
And appreciating the movie, there's this there's a sequence, um very the the movie starts there's no filler in this movie. It starts immediately with Jeff taking a run to the lab, to the door. But on the way, they're driving and Seth is carsick.
00:30:54
Speaker
And it's a 10 second sequence. And she says to him, are yeah are you okay? He says, I'm motion sick. i've I've always been motion sick, planes, whatever, even on my tricycle I threw up. But this is a tiny bit of character. It took 10 seconds to insert, but it gives us reason to why Jeff Goldblum is actually working on teleportation. It's part of his character. And then the reversal later with with status, Borens and with um Seth Brundle and his his decay in the third act is all delivered by Cronenberg. And this is why would be started the show? I said, this is a brilliant work of art and people sometimes see it and are repulsed by the body horror and they they neglect the fact um all these other elements that make this so brilliant. This story, it's definitely. Yeah, I mean, it's
00:31:40
Speaker
It's there, but I'll be honest. i didn't I didn't see it the first viewing, right? Like it was it was it was probably when I rewatched it on video at one point that I went, oh, wow, this is actually a really finely made movie. yeah um Because, yeah, like I wasn't used to it either. Like at that point in my life, I hadn't seen that kind of stuff.
00:32:00
Speaker
And I was just like, wow, that is just amazing. Really gross. So so you'll you'll be shocked to know they actually cut a lot out that was even worse. That's smart. There's scenes where his kidneys are expelled from his body yeah through the sides of his torso.
00:32:18
Speaker
And those scenes are on the DVD. You can see them as deleted scenes. But but theres there's one scene sequence about character and about story here that I want to mention to you, which is just...
00:32:30
Speaker
It's a phenomenal scene. And it's where Seth, his mental decline. So we're in act two, his mental decline is accelerating. And he starts talking about the plasma pool and how he's become this great person, a better human because he's gone through the television. He doesn't realize yeah he doesn't know he's't yeah that he has fly ah genes within his own DNA.
00:32:50
Speaker
And Ronnie is looking at him saying, oh my God, something something has happened to you you you. You are not well. And and Seth Brundle storms out of the lab and he's any sort storming down Yonge Street.
00:33:06
Speaker
And the music in that scene is just incredible. It's Howard Shore's music. And it's just this incredible operatic bomb, bomb, bomb. but You may remember it. It it it definitely ah will will stay with you after you see it. But when they were when they were in the editing room afterwards, Mel Brooks is sitting next to David Cronenberg. And Mel says to to David, i don't, I don't.
00:33:29
Speaker
are you sure about this music? This is, it doesn't really fit the scene. It's just a guy walking down the street at David, who is obviously he's intimately involved in this. He's written the script with, with Charles Pope. He turns to him out and says, no, no, he's not just walking down the street.
00:33:47
Speaker
He's a man going to meet his destiny because here we are, we're just about at act three. He walks into the bar, the music subsides right and who's in that bar. George Chavalo, the famous Canadian heavyweight boxer.
00:34:01
Speaker
Now, obviously, he doesn't play George Chavalo in the movie. He plays just some barfly. He was in there. And um i don't know if you know George Chavalo. know much about him, but he he actually fought Muhammad Ali twice. yeah He was never knocked down in his career. Muhammad Ali never knocked him down or knocked him out. And and ah George Chavalo was always chewing gum when he saw him. he He would have these huge wads of gum in his mouth. ink Chewing away. And his theory was that if he could exercise his jaw and his jaw muscles as much as possible, it would make him less likely to become dazed by getting hit in the jaw or getting knocked out. And his theory might might hold true because he was never knocked down and Muhammad Ali couldnt couldn't even knock him down.
00:34:40
Speaker
But that sequence when they have the arm wrestle, they actually built a ah or created a prosthetic arm of George Shavala. And David k Cronenberg said that arm was as big as his thigh. And that's the scene out of that whole movie.
00:34:59
Speaker
With the vomit drop, the decaying body, the the ears that followed, the teeth that followed. It's that scene of the wrist snapping and the bone the compound fracture and the bones sticking out of the skin. That stuck with me the most after that film.
00:35:13
Speaker
Yeah. yeah I remember that scene. Yeah. yeah Not me. it was the It was the making the guy's hands disappear. Yeah. The vomit drop. The vomit drop, yeah. The melting. That for me was like, i was like, what?
00:35:26
Speaker
so So this is one of those things of Cronenberg, you know, watching a movie in the 50s and being adept enough to say, hey, this isn't like, we're talking about a fly getting transposed.
Creative Project Inspired by 'The Fly'
00:35:37
Speaker
It's not very realistic. Let me make it realistic. Yeah, exactly. yeah That's what I love about the movie, though, is like he yes he takes this really impossible idea and finds a way to give it a reality.
00:35:49
Speaker
That right works and it works really well. It's impressive. Yeah. And he focused on characters and it's relevant to society and technology at the time and the fears that we were experiencing at the time.
00:36:00
Speaker
Now it's a sign of the times. Can I play something for you guys? I just want to, it'll take about a minute. I'll play it for you and see if you recognize anything about it.
00:36:12
Speaker
So, what next? Build an artificial intelligence? Nein. Complete the unified field theory? Child's play. No, I think I'll attempt some bold experiment that will inevitably go horribly wrong.
00:36:28
Speaker
That's always fun. But what? Hmm, let's see.
00:36:40
Speaker
Initializing.
00:36:45
Speaker
cross this red wire this this blue my and attempt to teleport myself into yeah ah a kitchen by a little schnack initializing warnings anomaly to detective Anomaly? What? hate when this happens! Oh, great. I'm a bee.
00:37:05
Speaker
species african honeybe note engaging high schooler
00:37:26
Speaker
Well, at least made it to the kitchen. Now, if only could open the fridge.
00:37:37
Speaker
So that was the impact that the fly had on me. I made that for a CBC radio back about, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago. The mad scientist there was played by a Canadian actor, ah Tony Daniels, a voice actor. I'm sure I've heard his voice before. Yeah. Yeah.
00:37:55
Speaker
But anyway, so yeah, turned him into ah a bee, not a fly. bee, not a fly, yeah. Yeah. Same thing. Same thing, yeah. So as as i did last time, guys, I brought some reviews of The Fi to read to you. The last time you may recall, I brought some reviews of The Thing to read. The Thing, which was reviled at the time. Absolutely hated by critics. What do you think critics will say about The Flux? Critics from the 80s would say
Mixed Critical Reviews
00:38:21
Speaker
about The Flux? I'm guessing they hated it.
00:38:23
Speaker
No, no. I think they probably would have appreciated it because it certainly didn't damage Cronenberg's career. It was a breakup movie for Goldblum. So yeah it must have been favorably received. It's probably, ah in ah in hindsight, it's probably considered Cronenberg's best and most commercial film. Although he' he has had such an incredible career from Dead Ringers to Madame Butterfly to History of violence. Yes. History of promises. I mean, come on. Yeah, absolutely. so soul is in
00:38:54
Speaker
but But largely considered his most successful, um I would consider it is his greatest movie. um However, at the time, let's let's hear these let's hear these reviews right now. The New Yorker.
00:39:07
Speaker
So back in 1986, probably is a fair to middling review from the New Yorker. Probably the picture is having its huge box office success because it's so single minded. It's like a B horror movie given new weight by Cronenberg. And for what it is, it's very well done. He narrows the film down to one man's decaying body and concentrates your attention on one stage after another of poor Brundle's becoming bent over double and deformed. And although the the successive jobs of makeup don't really make Goldblum look any more like a fly, the spectacle of ever-worsening rot has its own effectiveness. The movie can be taken as a metaphor for AIDS or cancer or simply as a metaphor for what happens in the normal aging process. Yet on its own, it has no real vision.
00:39:49
Speaker
Nothing that lifts it out of the horror shock category. So my god i just I just want to point it here. That is exactly exactly what I thought people were going to say. No real vision. Didn't understand the themes of man versus nature, of playing God, of mortality or disease, and didn't get the gothic references like Frankenstein. Yeah, like that was – I was maybe lucky because I just like literally like within a year I'd read Frankenstein. So I immediately clicked to that connection. And for me, that kind of rose, made the movie rise in my estimation afterwards. And I do remember now arguing with Jackie and Lisa about the merits of the movie afterwards, even though I was as equally grossed out and freaked out by the horror body horror as they were.
00:40:33
Speaker
But I imagine that's what all, I imagine that kind of like really influenced the the reviewers at the time, right? ah Yeah, yeah. um I mean, they didn't even get that this was a modern day retelling of ah of Frankenstein or of, you know, the story of Icarus who the scientist who played God and then and then flew too close to the sun and ended up dying. So that was a fair to middling review. they They did recognize that it was a B-horror movie. um And it was very well done for that. and We're not going to embarrass the critic by saying who it was. Yeah, I think we should shame them at this point. That would be Pauline Kow. Okay. Yeah. The Guardian, though, just ah the one line description of this is 96 minutes of grotesque, vomit-soaked bedlam.
00:41:14
Speaker
ah But David Cronenberg's best film. This is The Guardian. now Now, the Los Angeles Times, though, this one is very positive. So the LA Times, Patrick Goldstein. Cronenberg's new film, The Fly, plunges deeper into the forbidding realm of genetic dysfunction with genuinely unsettling results. Artfully constructed by Cronenberg and co-screenwriter Charles Edward Pogue, The Fly is as much a romantic tragedy as a black-humored horror film, but it unfolds with such eerie grandeur that it will leave you stoked with a creepy high for hours after you've left the theater.
00:41:45
Speaker
what makes the fly such a stunning piece of obsessive filmmaking is the way cronenberg definitely allows us to identify with his monstrous creation unlike so many modern horror film creations brundle is neither a brutal demon nor a hideous apparition from another sphere he's more reminiscent of the hulking marvels of our child of our movie childhood he has a dreamy transfixing innocence of a king kong or a frankenstein monster
Cronenberg's Influence on Future Filmmakers
00:42:09
Speaker
In fact, the more striking his physical metamorphosis, the more touchingly human he seems in spirit. It's hard not to hear the echo of Kafka in Brundle's most sorrowful lament, quote, I'm an insect who dreamed he was a man and the dream is over, which was one of Brundle's quotes. Yeah, that's pretty great. right That's pretty great. and When he talks about insect politics and that basically we have no politics and you have to get out of here because you're in danger.
00:42:34
Speaker
I can't control what I'm about to do. one of but he But that was a lie because remember, at the spoiler, at the very end, he takes the end of the shotgun and puts it against his forehead. Yeah. he had no yeah So one one of the things that bothered Cronenberg with that original movie was that they made the scientist, Andre, unable to speak. yeah So after the transportation and the transformation, he couldn't speak. And that cuts off a huge...
00:42:58
Speaker
narrative ah We have no access to his thoughts. Yes. But he maintained that in this movie until the very until that last until his experiment, which was all, Act 3 was all about his final plan. And when it failed because of Stathis-Borrens, he then could no longer speak. And he begged for He begged for death, but, release um, but he did Cronenberg does point out that the eyes you may have noticed in, the in Brundle fly, the final iteration of Brundle fly, those eyes are not insect eyes. yeah eyes are Those eyes are very much based on, um, Jeff Goldblum. They're very expressive. They added a green tinge to them. I'm not sure if you could see it unless you're watching it in HD, but there's a green tinge on them to represent, uh, an insect, uh, and they kept them.
00:43:44
Speaker
They kept them as human because they're more expressive than a fly. But Cronenberg also notes that maybe there's some kid in a theater somewhere who watched his movie and said, Hey, those, those aren't fly eyes. And maybe 40 years from now, he'll go on to make a, make a remake with the monster having actual fly eyes.
00:44:04
Speaker
Well, I was going to ask you and because, okay, so what, maybe 30 years passed between the first iteration of the movie and the second? And now we're the 40th anniversary. yeah Is it time for, what do we call it if it's the a remake the third time? The three-make. The three-make, but we did get a sequel to The Fly starring Eric Stoltz. You may remember it. It was pure gore. That was body horror with less character. um ge In that movie, Geena Davis had the child.
00:44:33
Speaker
and the child grew up to be Eric Stoltz whose transformation didn't begin until he hit um think it was either puberty or or adulthood eight 16 or 18 something something that but um I think I would love to see a remake I'm I'm all about the remakes just to see different people's visions of the story and what they add to it in this case Cronenberg added humanity character relationships uh Pogue added the the tech and the DNA Haven't they just revealed that um if you clone something too many times, eventually get to a point where it's stillborn?
00:45:09
Speaker
So how many times can you me error soon yeah how many times can you remake a movie before it's too many times Well, it's it's funny you mentioned that because I'm going to hit you with a proposal right now. Okay.
Future Discussion Proposal: 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers'
00:45:22
Speaker
A proposition. Okay. i So we've we've done the thing.
00:45:26
Speaker
We've talked about the thing here at the Recreative Podcast, and I love the discussion. We've talked about the fly, and I love the discussion. Two two films that fit a pattern. Great source material, a text from a sci-fi writer or speculative fiction writer.
00:45:43
Speaker
A movie in the 50s that was good, but you know by today's standards, maybe not maybe doesn't hold up. The remake in the 80s, which is absolutely fantastic. And in my opinion, the two best remakes of all time and among the best sci-fi horror films of all time. But I would like to come back, guys. I'm i'm inviting myself to come back to your Recreative podcast. We're in season three now, I understand. So I'm talking season four or season five. Season four. We're in four. we're We're in season four. We're in season four now. We're in season four. So I would like to come back in season five or six. And I would like to discuss my third film in this three film series of remakes of a 1950s film that was based on ah ah on a great text by a speculative fiction author. And that is Invasion of the Body Snatchers, written by Jack Finney in 1955, filmed in 1956. And then the the remake would have been Philip Kaufman's version in 1978. Oh, with Donald Sutherland.
00:46:43
Speaker
Donald Sutherland, Leonard Nimoy, who's a Star Trek Spock, and Jeff Goldblum once again. i got So many names there that I love. You sold me yeah You had me at remake. Jack Finney, one of my favorite books yeah time and time again. Oh, and by the way, we haven't mentioned Dune yet as a remake.
00:47:03
Speaker
Oh, based on the 1980s version. I mean, i don't get me wrong. Yeah, but I love i love the David Lynch version of Dune, yeah but it only makes sense if you've read all the books.
00:47:14
Speaker
But I think Denis Villeneuve's version of Dune, the first movie anyway, does make sense without having read the books. Danny Villeneuve is he's a hell of a filmmaker. He's one of the greatest filmmakers right now, period. I'm proud that he's Canadian, along with the the others that I mentioned. And he he did a film which is one of the his best film, I feel, is Prisoners, starring Hugh Jackman and Jake Gyllenhaal. And it's it's in the same genre as Silence of the Lambs.
00:47:43
Speaker
if you haven't seen Prisoners. I have not seen Prisoners, no. But but if if you're a fan of Silence Lambs, that Prisoners is is a movie that that you should definitely see. But guys, I'm i'm pitching this to you. 100%. Welcome back anytime. i was going to say you don't have to answer now, but I didn't want to put you on the spot, but I did. But I'm i'm giving you some...
00:48:02
Speaker
some homework. I'm giving you a task. Okay. And here it is. I will. Okay. All right. Here it is. Here it is. Okay. Mark loves homework. Wait a minute. I give the homework. but When I've done a lot of homework for this, for this podcast and don't, don't get me wrong. I loved it. I absolutely loved the preparation for this, but what I'd like to know from you is, can you pick a film?
00:48:25
Speaker
From the 50s or say 60s, we could stretch into the 70s, but pick a film from that period that is based on ah on a story or a novel by a science fiction science fiction writer that's very well regarded. Pick a film that has not been made yet, not been remade.
00:48:40
Speaker
What would that film be? Oh, that's good. you could remake a film from back then and fit in the same realm or vein as- And it's got to fill all those criteria. The Fly, The Thing, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, which we're going to talk about next episode. has to be horror. so it has to be horror. film no no it doesn't have to be but it but it just has to fit into this this realm yeah so like ah a previous text a movie based on a previous text yeah yes yeah that but this one has not been remade do we need to answer that now or we answer it next time you're going to think about it this is your homework and we're going to okay okay we'll do we'll do our discussion of invasion of body snatchers next time and then we'll have our our three-way discussion of which movie we would remake if we had the power to do it These are my genres and I love them
Healing Power of Stories
00:49:24
Speaker
dearly. And I talk with them on my on my blog, Life After Gateway. Every single day I post an article about my genres, which are science fiction, thriller, mystery, horror, suspense. But Joe, to get to your question, which movie has been remade the most? By my estimation, I think it's actually Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Because we've got the original in the 50s.
00:49:45
Speaker
We've got the 1970 version, which we're going to discuss. We've got the 1983 version. called the body snatchers who is in and that be and then we i there's a there's a tilly in it um i think it's um a meg tilly is is the star okay and then ah good old in the in the recent years within 10 years we have the invasion starring nicole kidman and daniel craig We also have a whole host of movies, and that's a play on words there, which play in that imposter theme genre, like The Host and The Fifth Wave and The Puppet Masters and all these other movies that are in the same, and The Thing, by the way, which is all in the same realm of the imposter theme. So, guys, I want to thank you sincerely from the bottom of my heart for having me on your podcast again to talk about this amazing film. Well, we paid you enough to be here. So no let me just say quite sincerely, you are the last time and this time one of our most informed and prepared guests. So it is deeply appreciated. Sometimes the conceit of the podcast is is kind of ah just touched upon very tangentially, but you take it seriously and and it works ah it works brilliantly. So thank you. And well done too.
00:51:03
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for having me. Sincerely, from the bottom of my heart, I love coming here to talk about this. I love talking about my genres. I love my genres. I feel a good story can heal the world. I say that when I meet people at signings. I write that on my blog, on my website. I feel that escapism is needed now more than ever. I got through my teenage years by reading books, watching movies, playing video games, reading short stories, reading comics and grabbing novels. I feel that a good story can take us away from all the, the stress and hardship and pain of this world. And a good story can heal the world and it can get us through the hard times. Forget well alcohol, forget drugs, forget. i need a good, I, I go to my comfort place, which is the thing invasion of the body snatchers, the fly reading Asimov, reading Heinlein, reading Michael Crayton. You've actually now set a new record on the podcast as um the latest that we've gotten around to introducing our guests.
Introduction of Timothy S. Johnston and Literary Works
00:51:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:58
Speaker
Because we've never actually, okay, sure you were on before, but people may not remember that. So at this late point, as we close out the podcast, tell everyone who you are what you do, and- And and give us some books to buy.
00:52:11
Speaker
Yeah. Hello, hello yeah I'm Timothy S. Johnston, and this is my podcast, The Recreation. And joining me today- Joining me today are Joe Mahoney and Mark Green, both great writers. Great writers in their own right. And I'm the writer of The Furnace, The Freezer, and The Void, which is the Tanner Sequence published by Karina Press. And I'm the writer of The Rise of Oceania, which is from Fitzhenry and Whiteside. And it is the The War Beneath the Savage Deep's Fatal Depth. An Island of Light, The Shadow of War, and my most recent book, which won the 2024 Global Thriller a Award Grand Prize, A Blanket of Steel, which is available in Indigo currently.
00:52:50
Speaker
so Thank you so much for having me on your podcast, guys. I love coming. I mean, I don't know. yeah Maybe we should just jump in a transporter together and one form one super host. Yeah, I think I'll ah skip that one. Yeah. Yeah. Timothy S. Johnson, thank you very much for being on our podcast, Recreative.
00:53:10
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. It was an absolute pleasure. I love Great to see you again, man. Thank you. Thank you.
00:53:51
Speaker
You've been listening to Recreative, a podcast about creativity and the works that inspire it Recreative is produced by Mark Rainer and Joe Mahoney for Donovan Street Press, Inc., in association with Monkey Joy Press.
00:54:04
Speaker
Technical production of music by Joe Mahoney. Web design by Mark Rainer. You can support this podcast by checking out our guests' work, listening to their music, purchasing their books, watching their shows, and so on.
00:54:17
Speaker
You can find out more about each guest in all of our past episodes by visiting recreative.ca. That's re-creative.ca. You can contact us by emailing joemahoney at donovonstreetpress.com.
00:54:31
Speaker
We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening. Music