Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Meals on Wheels Charity Edition: Ruth Abernethy
45 Plays1 month ago
This is a special re-broadcast of an episode of Re-Creative as a part of Podcasthon: "The world’s largest podcast charity initiative, bringing together podcasters globally to raise awareness for charitable causes."
The charity we wish to support is Meals on Wheels.
Ruth Abernethy, sculptor of some of the most iconic public art in Canada, joins the podcast to discuss her work.
Ruth has been a sculptor for more than thirty years, documenting in bronze many quintessential Canadian figures, such as Glenn Gould, Oscar Peterson, and Margaret Atwood.
Her connection to the theatre world goes quite deep. She began her career at Stratford, creating the sets and decorations that helps the festival bring Shakespeare to life.
Her commissions can be found across Canada, including at Queen's Park, Ontario's legislature, where visitors can see her rendition of Queen Elisabeth II, near Queen Victoria.
Mark, Joe and Ruth have a fascinating conversation about Ruth's work, her passion for creation, and her recent book.
For fans of art, this is an episode not to be missed!
For more information, check out the show notes for this episode.
Re-Creative is produced by Donovan Street Press Inc. in association with MonkeyJoy Press.
Contact us at joemahoney@donovanstreetpress.com
Recommended
Transcript
Recreative's Special Charity Episode
00:00:00
Speaker
Mark, welcome back to Recreative. Wow, it seems like ages. Okay, here's the thing. We're on hiatus, but we committed to doing a special episode on behalf of charity.
00:00:10
Speaker
Okay, so Joe, Podcast Thon, what is this? Podcast Thon, it's sort of an umbrella organization where they're encouraging podcasts from all over the world. I think it started in France to devote one episode of the podcast to a charity of their choice.
00:00:25
Speaker
So even though we're on hiatus, we're coming back briefly to do this special episode for podcast on and a charity. Awesome. And what's our charity? Well, we kind of went back and forth on it a bit. We landed on one of my mother's favorite charities, which is called Meals on Wheels.
00:00:43
Speaker
Because she ran Meals on Wheels, the Summerside chapter in Prince Edward Island for years and years and years. I think it's a really good charity. Yeah, I'm in favor of charities that feed people. I'm a big supporter of food banks ah in london London's food bank, Food Banks Canada. But this feeds people and this is a really useful social program as well.
00:01:02
Speaker
So I agree with
Spotlight on Ruth Abernethy
00:01:04
Speaker
this one. And so rather than than recording a new episode, we went back and we picked a particular favorite. The one with Ruth Abernethy, because I just think it's a it's one that I'd like more people to listen to because she's such a fascinating artist.
00:01:18
Speaker
And ah if you if you live in Canada, I guarantee you at some point you've encountered her art. And it'd just be nice for you to know a little bit more about it. And those of you who might come to visit Canada, and this is a great time to do it, would be interested in seeing some of her artwork as well. She makes bronze sculptures.
00:01:36
Speaker
And so I think the podcast is does a great job of explaining what her career has been like. Exactly. it was a cool podcast that that kind of came out of the blue for us. We didn't expect it. She was a ah really special guest. And we could explain it now or we could let the podcast itself do the explaining. I think that's let people enjoy it. All right. Yeah. So here we go. A special edition of Recreative devoted to a charity of of our choice, Meals on Wheels.
00:02:02
Speaker
And away we go.
00:02:13
Speaker
Mark, I saw you about to touch that microphone. No touching the microphone during the podcast. Well, I had a little problem before we started. The whole thing fell off my desk. so what the What? The whole microphone and the whole setup? Yeah, the whole arm, the whole thing. Yeah, it just came right off.
00:02:28
Speaker
ah That's why I was not early. You know, that would that would have been a lot more entertaining if it had happened during the podcast. i Yeah, for you. Yes. And our guest. Yes, absolutely.
00:02:40
Speaker
Yes. ah Yeah. Now, did you put it together correctly? Is it going to fall apart? That's actually it. Now we have a moment of tension in the podcast because the listener is thinking, oh, maybe Mark's arm is going to fall. Not his actual arm.
00:02:53
Speaker
His podcast arm is going to fall down because it's possible. I know that that's not the right word for this. but it's looking It's looking stable. You're sounding good. Okay, good. That's the main thing. Yeah.
00:03:04
Speaker
Excellent. Now, do you have, ah you are famous, of course, for your questions. I actually have a question, but maybe it's too deep. What's your relationship with time like? My relationship with time?
00:03:16
Speaker
Now, I have a question that might get us into that. Do you wear a watch? I used to, and then COVID happened and my watch battery died. And I had a guy that I always went to, to fix my watches and replace my batteries.
00:03:31
Speaker
And sadly, tragically his shop closed up for COVID and then never reopened. So then, ah you know, and I, I got the phone, you know, the, the cell phone and I have two watches here somewhere that I've just never got around to wearing again.
00:03:47
Speaker
There you go. So you don't need the watch. No. I've never had a watch. I mean, I did when I was kid. I had a Mickey Mouse watch. And then I briefly coveted, remember the Swatch watch?
00:03:59
Speaker
Yeah. yeah I coveted that and never got one. And then I said, screw it. I don't need a watch. And so I've never actually worn a watch in my adult years. Well, i actually, I don't know. I was like curious about this and I looked this up and it's like, like 80% people wear watches.
00:04:15
Speaker
No, I can't see our guest's arms or hands. Well, that's why, I mean, this is just an open question. because so Ruth has a watch on. So Ruth, have a nephew. She just showed watch. Welcome. And yeah, so how long have you always worn a watch or is it? Well, that's kind of a joke on my part because – I'm a watch killer. I'm one of those people that find and nice watch and I wear it for maybe six weeks and then it just stops.
00:04:39
Speaker
Oh, wow. My husband has bought me several as gifts. One came from Germany. I mean, not like they were lifetime investments, but they were really they were real watches. and And inevitably, they stopped. I managed to stop my sister's nurse's watch when she was no longer nursing. I had that.
00:04:53
Speaker
So I have to laugh. Occasionally, you know I go through a period. And of course, the phone has the time. But this is This is a recent gift, so it's more of a test to see how long I can keep it running. For years, I didn't. But then, in fairness, I get sick of is scrambling for my phone every time I want to know what time it is.
00:05:08
Speaker
So this is an experiment. I'm about three weeks in with this one. We'll talk again. Ruth Abernethy, Slayer of Time Pieces, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Good to be with you. Yeah.
00:05:20
Speaker
Now, I think ah Ruth is one of our guests that we really do need to have properly introduced off the top of the podcast. Because there's a kind of a ah fascinating connection between her and me that I didn't you know realize until I was you know researching her and and figuring out just exactly who she was.
00:05:36
Speaker
But Ruth, um so what we do in this podcast typically is we have the guests introduce themselves so they can frame their own reality and and you know and tell us who they think they are rather than who the world thinks they are.
00:05:47
Speaker
Could you do that for us? Sure. That's not so difficult. Ruth Abernethy, sculptor and artist, ah sculptor with a background in theatre. And before that, it was ah a farming and a musical family that that played. we We played as a family for whatever was going down. So from onstage to backstage was an easy shift.
00:06:12
Speaker
And from backstage was 20 years in props. And from that directly introduced to the foundry. ah which is now 25 years ago. And yeah because I could carve, ah one thing led to another. and i And what was the phrase? I feel like I walk around and wait to be hit by lightning. But in fact, I think I make myself available to people who think stuff up.
00:06:33
Speaker
And I, of course, do that also. So at this point, I have bronzes across Canada, several in the US and a few other artworks overseas in private
The Art of Public Portraiture
00:06:43
Speaker
collections. And For various reasons, but yeah, sculpture. At one point I would have said sculpture and stop there.
00:06:50
Speaker
i might be an artist, but at some point I'm not interested in debating that term because so much of my output is commissioned work. But how is that even a debate? It's just a debate I don't want.
00:07:03
Speaker
I've had people tell me that what I do is not art. Oh, come on. it's that's true i'm not making it up it's public art a lot of but your commissions especially are public art but it's it's art and i think portraitures always ah inhabits that curious threshold because it it it is easily ignored and if it's badly done long sigh it's it's really makes me sad because i know too much about how much it costs but when it's well rendered It stands there with the presence of someone with whom you must contend.
00:07:36
Speaker
So it never quite goes out of fashion. But I think, ah you know, I think in that respect, it's both endlessly alive and continuously frustrating for some. Well, if your works are not art, then I shudder to think what what my like me your accomplishments are. yeah I just put that out because I think it is interesting. you know i'm not Why shy away from the debate?
00:07:57
Speaker
That's really the underpinning of of why we're on tonight. you know And a debate isn't necessarily antagonistic. It's just different points of view. and And because I know I'm a sculptor, I can get behind that at any point.
00:08:08
Speaker
But a sculptor doesn't necessarily mean ah individual thought. You know, you could be a technician and be a sculptor. So I think after 25 years, I've maybe proven my point. I guess what you're saying is that there's this feeling that that sort of public portraiture is more documentary in nature, you think? Is that what the argument is?
00:08:28
Speaker
Well, I think maybe, you know, I... i'm Because I'm not really willing or very terribly interested in the debate, to each their own. and And the person who said that to me, they have no way of knowing how much of what you're looking at is actually mine.
00:08:43
Speaker
right There are a lot of artists, I'm told, because you have to understand that having a if you've commissioned an artist, it's a bit like having a brain surgeon. If you've got a good one, you're not supposed to need a second one. right So the people that I know and work with are at the foundry.
00:08:58
Speaker
You know, they are my clients. They are in my community. They're not other artists as a general sense. And because my background is in theater, I have met a few artists through the foundry, but it it's not like I have a peer group of of of classmates from ah from arts training. So i mean in that respect, a bit unusual, I think.
00:09:19
Speaker
And you have to remember the collaboration that goes into working together on the farm And certainly for our family, the collaboration of being a family band for, you know, most of a decade, I suppose, turns into the collaboration of putting a live stage show together.
00:09:34
Speaker
And then I collaborate with my clients. It wouldn't occur to me to do it any other way. yeah I'm not interested in being a celebrity. Well, you will be after this podcast. That's right. Dozens of people will know who you are. But I mean, who wants your reputation to enter the room before you do? You know, i mean, the the exchange we're having tonight is much more interesting to me if we're sort of unfolding the paper together and having a look.
00:09:59
Speaker
So we should be clear for our listeners about some of the work that you've done. And I was ah gobsmacked, actually, when when I looked and saw, because, you know, as I was saying to you before the recording, I worked at the Toronto Broadcast Centre for 30-some years.
00:10:14
Speaker
And at a certain point there, a a sculpture of ah Glenn Gould showed up. And many of us would sit on that bench beside Glenn Gould, and you see people getting their Pictures taken beside Glenn Gould all the time. It is iconic.
00:10:27
Speaker
And you're the one that created that. It's a great honor, actually, to be talking to you. Well, thanks. Yeah, it was a good piece. I have had amazing subjects and amazing people to work with. Like, full stop. Just humbling.
00:10:40
Speaker
Both the subjects and and those who commissioned them. But the work goes across. If you're going to have Gould in Toronto, then then the question when Oscar Peterson died was, I think was Martin Nelman who said, well, you know, we just have to have Oscar the way we have Gould. And of course we do. I was commissioned. So Oscar Peterson sits downtown Ottawa and is much beloved there. you Very hardworking diplomats on my behalf.
00:11:05
Speaker
But there are now, i think, maybe 60 portraits across the country. Various. Some large, and not all. Some are just busts. but And you've done Margaret Atwood, I saw. and Yes, for the Canadian Geographic Society.
00:11:19
Speaker
And the Queen. Yes, if ever there was a large piece with a lot of silence around it, that'd be her.
00:11:25
Speaker
Did you actually have to sit with the Queen at any point, or is that all done from... No. To be honest, i I wouldn't want anyone to sit for a portrait that's sculpted. The pace would kill you. It's too slow.
00:11:38
Speaker
And... What is interesting, I mean, the Queen is perhaps my most traditional portrait. At some level, it's granny in a chair, right? Really? Where yeah it's not like I start with some idea that has to be animated.
00:11:50
Speaker
But my background is theatre. I've sent things on stage in service of a playwright for 20 years. I didn't have to sign my props. That's a joke at the foundry. But playwrights have a refined sense of offering his characters on stage warts and all.
00:12:06
Speaker
And it never occurred to me that portraiture should be anything but that. You know, ah you don't portray someone because it's reverential. And the characters on stage or in film that so intrigue us are definitely warts and all. And so in trying to think up the the the configuration for any of them that would be memorable,
00:12:27
Speaker
then you sure don't reach for boring. And it was funny that you were talking about time, because I continue to come back to that in my work. I'm not content with just a set of familiar features.
00:12:39
Speaker
I want you to have a moment with Glenn Gould, or a moment with Oscar Peterson. Of course, we know it's contrived. But if it feels real for you, it's quickly about you and him.
00:12:50
Speaker
And I fall out of the picture, which is why the discussion of a who is she, like, I don't mind that people don't know, but I've been asked why I don't sign them. Well, of course, I sign them. But if if the portrait is effective, I'm not supposed to be in the middle there translating.
00:13:05
Speaker
And that to me, so it's just interesting when when you started out talking about time, because I feel like I've been banging on about time forever, because it is a moment, it's a gesture, you know, in in whatever configuration we are sitting here right now is because of what we had for supper or how rushed we were to get here, or whether we're in suspense over your microphone arm.
00:13:25
Speaker
know, it's the nuances of how people people position themselves in the interaction. Yeah. is what I'm after. And that is rooted in time. And there's something about sculpture that is about time in its nature because it captures a moment in time, but there's a timelessness to sculpture because it lasts longer, most of it, than other forms of art does.
00:13:49
Speaker
Well, and I consider that the people that I put in public space are the permanent performance and we are the audience that changes. and And I'm fascinated by that. You know, the people who remember going to see X, you know, you will remember seeing Gould appear at a point where you were in a specific point in your career.
00:14:09
Speaker
And then Gould appears. And it's you that changes every time you go in and out of CBC with this moment of ah recollection or reminiscence or possibly regret or a sense of moving on. Like, that's all your stuff that will shift with every encounter.
00:14:22
Speaker
And... i I also think that when I'm doing a portrait, I'm doing it for my clients. you know On one hand, I think I'm sculpting Oscar Peterson for his wife. Because if it's true for Kelly, it will be true enough for anybody else. yeah But in all fairness, there will be a point where Kelly and I are not part of the picture.
00:14:43
Speaker
So you're doing the portraits for the people now, but you're ultimately doing them for people who would never, ever have had a chance. To meet with Oscar. yeah you know Oscar has this perfect litmus test called a wife.
00:14:56
Speaker
and And if the portrait rings true for her, okay, I can tell you a very sweet little Oscar story. Okay. Any of the portraits start with the head study, in part because that's who they are.
00:15:08
Speaker
I figure out what they should look like, what the composition is beforehand as a holistic exercise. So I want the whole gesture, the stance, the center of balance, the gesture, the whole thing. But I start with the with the head study.
00:15:22
Speaker
and And I sculpt that in a modeling clay that gives me the detail that I want or the surface that I want. The other part of that is that I have to do it to size and I have to put it on a core so it's not so heavy so that it doesn't wobble because of it's weighing 70 pounds.
00:15:40
Speaker
So I do that. And once once i'm but then there's the process of approvals, right? Well, of course, this included Kelly for Oscar's Portrait. So I had to trundle this heavy head study ah to her house for her to see it. yeah And of course, i I enlisted my younger son because there's there's not really a good way to hold a head study in a moving vehicle.
00:16:00
Speaker
And it's a right panic to do the 401 with a spare head. So Alex came with me, you know, holding on And we got to Kelly's home. And I took it in and I set it on the coffee table, middle of the living room.
00:16:13
Speaker
And just, you know, I had already talked to her and she said she'd be right there. And in the interim, someone had come home. They'd taken the dogs out for a walk. There were three dogs. And they came in the room and they saw Oscar's head on the coffee table. Oh, no.
00:16:29
Speaker
And they just lit up. I have never seen anything like it. They barked. They were terrified. Papa wasn't looking at them. And they they barked and barked. And then Kelly came down. She'd been up in the office and we watched them. And it was fantastic.
00:16:43
Speaker
Fascinating. And they carried on and carried on. We kept thinking they'd settle, you know, they circle and they'd come up. They were going to, they wanted a sniff, but it was creepy because he didn't respond to them. he was a bad color and he smelled wrong.
00:16:57
Speaker
smelled super they yeah They were completely thrown. Kelly had time to go back and get the video camera and come back to the living room and still catch a couple of minutes of them kicking up before she ushered them away.
00:17:09
Speaker
And the best compliment i could ever ask for, frankly. Absolutely. Yeah, they still recognized him, even though he smelled totally wrong. And I'm going to suggest it it would have been creepier had he responded.
00:17:21
Speaker
Yes. Yes. The boxer was Oscar's dog. The other two, of course, you know, he'd always had. But the but the boxer was absolutely Oscar's buddy. And it really, best compliment ever.
00:17:33
Speaker
Well, I also enjoy, i I think we should send all our listeners to your website so that they can look at all these things. And I really enjoyed your collection of ah of studio work too. I really, really like it. It's so interesting.
00:17:49
Speaker
Well, that's life affirming. I just was like, how can people not think that's art? i don't know oh yeah i've never I've never been told that about my personal work.
From Theatre to Bronze Sculptures
00:18:00
Speaker
It's just that because I'm one of those people, okay, my work in theater puts me in a position where I'm the one given the sketch and could we have this eight feet tall in two weeks? I'm the one who does do the full size version.
00:18:13
Speaker
And so that was my skill set. That was how I transitioned from the prop shop to doing my very first bronze, which is in front of the Stratford Festival, right? A very public learning curve and a very public thing I do at home in private.
00:18:27
Speaker
But that was the transition. I knew I could carve. That was why I had been asked to do the original workman pulling up the giant tent. i like Symbolic of the festival's first performances. right And I'd been asked to do that because I already knew the designer and he had a minuscule budget and what ah was asked to do a fundraising indicator. So I threw them together and then fundraising went well and and people did love it.
00:18:52
Speaker
I always go there during the intermission. I always go there and that's where I have my glass of wine. I just love being by that statue. And I have to say, like going back, that's still one of the trickiest installations I've ever done.
00:19:04
Speaker
You know, you have to remember that when I did those figures, I was working in a space in my unfinished house that was about 10 feet square. There was no chance of having all three of them ever assembled together until the day of installation.
00:19:17
Speaker
And like there was no space and there was no time again because I had to get one done and taken to the foundry so that they could get going because their timeline was incredibly short. and And everything about that, like the length of the steel cables had to be sorted out in advance and capped at the ends.
00:19:33
Speaker
Nobody knew where the pole was going. Like everything about it was were variables with no real fixed point. I was given a piece of paper with three dots on it. I knew the designer and he trusted me. And and really, that' that's great.
00:19:47
Speaker
you know That's very good, though, because that's pretty much how, I guess, the original season at Stratford was, too. It was in a tent. but Absolutely. you know, it's curious that in going back, I look at them and I know now that I could have done a few things differently in wax because wax was a new material for me.
00:20:05
Speaker
But I don't cringe. I look at them and they are absolutely oh no the energy of the place. and the energy you know It's a permanent prop in front of a theater. The movement is wonderful. It's so beautiful. like The dynamics of the whole thing yeah are accurate. That that low guy, is actually his own weight is holding that cable because he's so offset.
00:20:26
Speaker
now Is that where you did props in part at Stratford? I did. I was there for most of 15 seasons. But of course, full time in Stratford is you know January to early July at best, and then I would be somewhere else.
00:20:39
Speaker
And I did work at most of Canada's regional theatres. actually got to Stratford from Winnipeg. I had gone to MTC, now Royal Manitoba Theatre Centre, and I was hired as head of props there.
00:20:51
Speaker
yeah for i was 20. It was the 80-81 season, and we had a very ambitious Alice Through the Looking Glass concert. ah was the was the kids Christmas show.
00:21:02
Speaker
And I just had a wallow building stuff. I mean, I worked every waking second, it was obscene. But you know, it was a blast. I was, I was useful. You know, that's the thing. And I said once to the carpenter, a very seasoned carpenter, you know, in the end, I get a sketch, it looks like this, my props looked like the sketches.
00:21:20
Speaker
I couldn't quite understand all the excitement, because that's the goal. That's my job. And he said, Oh, just yuck it up. He said, the minute they know what you can really do, they're going to want to be wowed every time.
00:21:31
Speaker
And he was right. you know i just got i mean it Yeah, it was a very ambitious build. And so I came from Winnipeg to Stratford in 81, first year of John Hirsch's. Isn't there a Canadian who can run this theater?
00:21:44
Speaker
A very short and chaotic season. But I arrived in April. I never knew anybody else who ever started working at the festival in April. But we threw the season together and ah Yeah, did most of the other regionals, ah Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, New Brunswick, Ferdicton.
00:22:02
Speaker
jeez you've had I was just going to say. yeah You're not an artist in this country if you can't embrace the TransCanada. yeah Yeah, I guess. yeah Now, I wanted to ask you, yeah and you you talked about this a little bit already, describing making the head of Oscar Peterson.
00:22:17
Speaker
But I was in Newfoundland recently. I was in St. John's. And there's a bunch of ah sculptures there by, i like I don't know his name, offhand. oh that's some Yeah, I know i know him. um it'll come he did the rower.
00:22:29
Speaker
Yeah, and i yeah I figured you guys probably a it would actually know one another. But looking at his work, I was marveling with my wife. i'm like, how did they actually do this? And now we're in a position to ask someone who does it.
00:22:40
Speaker
So you've described it a little bit. can you walk us Would you mind walking us through a little bit more the process? I would preface this by saying that I don't actually know how anyone else does it. Oh.
00:22:52
Speaker
Because it's because. You know, which is, it's not about trade secrets. It's just that my method in Stratford or in theater period, we use styrene, that white packing material, right? You can send it on stage, you can shape it into anything.
00:23:06
Speaker
I think they use it a little less now than they did when I was in the industry because they've come up with other methods and it, of course it will burn. So fireproofing is a real thing, but it's easy to carve, you know, it's like carving butter and you, in the end, you just want the volume, right?
00:23:20
Speaker
So that's the basis of mine. I'll shorten a longer story because there's a lot of material and I've been around forever. But the um Prime of Miss Jean Brody, a play at Stratford, the the Maggie Smith was in the movie, a teacher in Britain takes her students to the National Gallery and there's all this tittering about whether the male figures are wearing their fig leaves or what's under them, right?
00:23:41
Speaker
And in the end, the designer had come down and asked for a knockoff of one of Rodin's very well-known sculptures so that it it you know was it was rolled on stage and immediately the audience is supposed to be in the National Gallery.
00:23:55
Speaker
Well, fundamentally... It's not supposed to wobble on and and create a a comic moment, right? this sister You are transported to the National Gallery.
00:24:06
Speaker
So not only do we need a pretty close copy of Rodin's Dock Worker, but but we'd like it by next Friday. You know, there's hardly any time to do it once, let alone do it again. We used to buy giant blocks, two by four by eight, and go at them with a chainsaw.
00:24:20
Speaker
And I just remember thinking it was a what are the chances you're going to stumble onto the elbow of somebody? You know what i mean? You need a more controlled process. And I worked out a woodworker's technique of putting a front view on one face of a column and an aligned side view on the other face, and then cutting out those two profiles, keeping off cuts you could turn and keep it square to go through the saw. I essentially did that large with composite. So I had like four or five columns together.
00:24:48
Speaker
and And I would do maps of front view and then honestly used a framing square to figure out yeah the side view so that, you know, my hand looks very, you know, you get the point that that the outline of Bugs Bunny through the wall is the best explanation of that perfect profile. But is he wearing a dress?
00:25:07
Speaker
If he is, then you've got it, right? Everything from this point out, you don't need. Everything from this point in, you do need. So I would map it. And then there's essentially by doing a composite with columns,
00:25:18
Speaker
I have this internal grid in the material, right? And every point is so many inches front or back of a center line, left or right of a center line and up from the floor.
00:25:29
Speaker
And I can actually map a gesture accurately. Ultimately, what I'm doing is guiding my imagination to a refined finish. So that's where that came from. It's absolutely taken from a stage necessity in my view.
00:25:41
Speaker
But it just meant that I could just catch what I wanted. Like, i don't know how else you go about it. ah Morgan MacDonald is the guy in Nova Scotia, in Newfoundland rather. And he came and had work cast at the Foundry when he was just a kid, and I was not quite a kid. But I think one the rower was one of his first.
00:25:59
Speaker
So my question is, so that is actually kind of like 3D printing before there was 3D printing, what you were doing for the stage work. suppose. Really? Yeah. I didn't ask your question about bronze. I was going to say, what happens with bronze? Yeah. Because I'm interested, like, so you used clay. Did you mostly use clay and then create a mold from that? Or did you use the? No.
00:26:21
Speaker
Don't forget my background's theater. Clay, heavy, expensive. It dries out and it can only be used once. So we never used clay, ceramic clay in in theater. We had big garbage pails full of plasticine, right, that you could could work again and again.
00:26:37
Speaker
And I get a ah very pale colored plasticine because I can't show clients heads made in green and blue and yellow. For props, it doesn't matter. But, you know, most of my approval sessions now are digital photographs. So I really do need to be able to get decent photos of the work.
00:26:53
Speaker
So I do the head. let's Let's say for the moment I've taken an arm that is carved in styrene and surfaced in waxed The skin is wax and it's it's maybe a sixteenth of an inch, right?
00:27:06
Speaker
I've taken a figure that is essentially a pattern for what I want replicated in bronze. So the foundry will cut it into pieces that are small enough to be dunked in layers of ceramic, slurry and sand. They'll build a wall on the outside.
00:27:20
Speaker
In that process, they'll put wax dowels, little wax rods on the tips of the fingertips, right? Where you would pour plaster in a recess, you have to account for the for molten metal.
00:27:32
Speaker
So you can't trap air in the tips of the fingers. You'd never get the fingertips, right? So you stick these little wax rods on the fingertips. So in the process of coating then burning out the original arm, those little rods become tunnels.
00:27:48
Speaker
And then you get to go back and put wax inside that mold after it's fired So you're putting wax on the surface where the where the bronze will be. And then you're doing the whole darn thing again because you need the outside contour and you also need an impression of the inside cavity.
00:28:05
Speaker
Wow. Okay. So any bronze of any size bigger than you know your fist will probably be made hollow. The bronze is 90% copper, so it holds an incredible amount of heat.
00:28:16
Speaker
And that amount of metal will shrink and crack and tear as it cools. So all of the big bronzes are made hollow. And then, of course, we are lucky to live in the age of welding.
00:28:27
Speaker
So the pieces are reassembled and welded. And then, of course, all the All the seams are made invisible. but Like there is nothing spontaneous about working in bronze. And it's very much like theater. That's a group effort. That is not one person's skill doing that.
00:28:43
Speaker
Now was going to ask, how long would it take to have made something like the Glen Gould? You know, the nicest thing about Glenn Gould is that nobody knew what I was doing, right?
Creating Iconic Canadian Sculptures
00:28:51
Speaker
Everybody thought I was still at my table at the festival.
00:28:53
Speaker
So I use him as kind of a benchmark because the phone didn't ring. I had to get my toddlers to daycare. That was an no small challenge. But then I had the rest of the day to myself, which had never happened before. You can put Gould's music on. It's heavenly. You only need one clean finger to hit play.
00:29:11
Speaker
And of course, you're going listen to the same track again because you can't couldn't possibly handle a CD with Waxy Hands. But I'm going to say four months. As a general statement, I would say a month to do a head study.
00:29:23
Speaker
And that's time working on it, and then time away and coming back to it going, oh, what was I thinking and fixing things ah yeah as a general statement. And then it's as long.
00:29:33
Speaker
for the foundry to make it in metal as it is for me to make the original. Right. But that's pretty quick. Like, yeah, that is know what the whole thing. Like really to work in a conventional method with actual clay. And then you've got maquettes that no one can lift by hand.
00:29:50
Speaker
Dear God, like i think I'm sure that i've a great many of the commissions in my book are made possible because I price it according to the time and materials it takes me to do it, which makes it about as reasonable as as could possibly be made.
00:30:04
Speaker
Don't forget that once I get the head study done, the head study is molded and then I have a copy of it like a chocolate Easter bunny, right? Only it's Oscar Peterson's head.
00:30:15
Speaker
I'm carving the body together. and garments and I'm surfacing that with wax and tooling it by hand and then I'm putting the head on It has to be a visual match, right? Because the hands have to have a similar texture to the face.
00:30:29
Speaker
You know, the whole thing has to be cohesive, but the whole thing will melt. So what I take to the foundry is cut into pieces, but they don't have to mold whole thing, right? They can do a, it's in Canada, I have not found a place that will do this in the States.
00:30:46
Speaker
but But they can go directly to bronze, sort of ah called a make hollow process, and they which means that the only mold for any of the figure portraits is the head. And that in itself is a saving of thousands of dollars. Wow. But, you know, for one of us.
00:31:02
Speaker
and And, of course, you end up with these molds. Like if you had molded the entire body, and the heck, the molds are as big as a Volkswagen. No one wants to store them, but no one wants to throw them away either. Yeah. And they're just not value added. Yeah.
00:31:15
Speaker
And it gives me the chance to do the most the the freshest rendition. you know It isn't twice mold, reproduce, refine mold. You know what I mean? There isn't all this back and forth stuff.
00:31:27
Speaker
What you're looking at with any of mine is the point at which I figured we were done. Like it's doing this, tools down. that You get the freshest possible rendering of this individual as I imagined them.
00:31:40
Speaker
Now, you mentioned the book, which is in part the reason that we're talking today. So you've written a book. You've actually written two books, haven't you? Because you wrote another one a few years ago. and Boy, you've done props, ah sculptures, and and written books. What what can't you do?
00:31:56
Speaker
Oh, I can't work my phone. I think those things are all related. You know, i think I think they are. I think it's all part of the storytelling. And ah what can I say? You know, ah my mother was was pregnant playing for dances and she was a spectacular accordion player.
00:32:11
Speaker
You know, ah music is in my cell structure. And my my siblings are are, they are musicians. They did farm, but really they were musicians who knew how to farm. and And they are amazing. truly musical. you know i've I've seen Ham Fisted. It ain't them.
00:32:25
Speaker
I can play, but I'm not that. you know my My siblings could get music out of a toaster, as could my parents. So I think there's a rhythm there that is all part and parcel. I would not try and articulate that, but I don't think it's insubstantial.
00:32:40
Speaker
Yeah, no, the first book was commissioned Okay, I'm going to back up the story a little bit because there's always there's always real life in the background. And then there's always this scramble for work in the foreground. you know Never read the last celebrity chapter and figure that's the whole story. you know But my husband had been approached by approach with an engineering job in Vancouver.
00:33:03
Speaker
and This was March. We looked at it. you know, because we'd always been back and forth, his family were out there, I went to school at there, I lived out there, as had he and, you know, it was appealing. And it was the perfect job where engineering intersected with biology.
00:33:18
Speaker
And we looked at it and thought, oh, that you know, but it's Vancouver, you know you're nuts. So for for several months, we toyed with this and dismissed it. And then we met the company, the the head team came out for a conference in June in Toronto. And of course, because they wanted full Mark full time, they knew they had to woo me, a very clever people. And we met the owner.
00:33:39
Speaker
And we were just impressed beyond words. In the first couple of sentences, i was included in in Mark's job interview. And in the first couple of sentences, Alan Eves said, oh, you know, we'd handshakes and cards. And he said, I've been looking for a sculptor.
00:33:54
Speaker
I've got a project I want done in Nova Scotia. And I said, oh, well, you know, I have family down there. My uncle was the station master in Wolfville until it closed. And he said, oh, well, that's where I want the sculpture. At which point we both took a breath and figured we had to continue the conversation.
00:34:08
Speaker
In the end, Mark was hired full time and it was a spectacular position for him, however hard that back and forth was. But I thought, well, he got Mark, I'm not going to press, you know, and I had enough going on. But he wrote in October and said, OK, Ruth, I got these five things I want you to do.
00:34:22
Speaker
His mandate specifically. was engineers and scientists in Canada who had made a significant contribution and were virtually unknown. And the infrastructure in this country is staggering.
00:34:34
Speaker
I mean, when you mentioned that Trans-Canada Highway, i mean, what section of it have you driven where you didn't just kind of have to give a nod to them who made it easier? It's a phenomenal accomplishment. And it's bridges and it's, name it, it's accomplishments in medicine, accomplishments in education.
00:34:51
Speaker
in hard science and food handling and engineering. Remarkable. And Alan had a list of five. So, and then of course, as he got more familiar with my work, he said, well, Ruth, you just have to do a book. And I, it's not that I thought he was wrong, but books, if you've noticed are very, very flat.
00:35:08
Speaker
And but that to me, like, oh my goodness, not, not a skill set that I command, but I knew he wasn't wrong either. You know, the archives at that point were sort of knee deep. and half organized. And so we did book one, but there was always the idea that we would have a second book because but there was more work. And i am, as we speak, and our last fellow is cast in bronze, and I think on a truck on his way to Science World in Vancouver for a dedication and installation on on the 1st of December.
00:35:38
Speaker
This is Michael Smith, who got a Nobel Prize in 93 for figuring out how to ah manipulate DNA. Came from Manchester, England, came to came to BC and just fell in love with the place.
00:35:51
Speaker
And of course, he was brilliant, but he wanted to be in BC. So he wooed others to come to BC so he could have the career he wanted there. And what it has done ultimately is put biotech front and center in the lower mainland in British Columbia in a way that it was simply not present before.
00:36:09
Speaker
And he was amazingly committed to the collegial atmosphere. He had no patience with people who were going to be protective of their turf or walking around ah with elbows out in an academic or a research sense.
00:36:22
Speaker
As he said, like in research, you're more likely to fail than succeed. And he was absolutely of a mind that if if we are collaborative in our approach to the work, everybody's work, is elevated and enhanced. and the And the pleasure in sharing it and doing it is also. And he was profoundly committed to that. and And everyone who mentions him just, you know, starts to smile.
00:36:43
Speaker
And that's huge. So, yes, he's the last of Alan's. And we will wrap up this fall in Vancouver in a couple of weeks and flog the book out there and introduce it. We'll gift it to people, frankly.
00:36:55
Speaker
You know, Alan's got a lot of people on his Christmas list and they will all have copies. What a wonderful experience. I just love that. yeah Yeah. That's wonderful. Oh, yeah. I mean, I just work with the most remarkable people.
00:37:09
Speaker
You know, it's it's both the legacies of the people. And and that's that's the thing. You know, when you start to learn about these people whose portraits you're working on. really much more fun to look at their stories than my own. Most people don't really want to hear from the second daughter you know or the ninth prop maker. you know The question really is, could you have that done by next Friday? do ah well that's when i'm talking You but it's But it's interesting. you know It's not that my story isn't interesting, but my life is filled with interesting stories.
00:37:43
Speaker
And I don't mind switching tracks from one to the other. you know i i And I would hold, too, I think it's an interesting aspect right now. In the land of the selfie, I think it's actually a much stronger position to not be in the center of every frame.
00:37:59
Speaker
From there, you're blinded by the stage lights. You can't really tell who you're talking to. You don't know who's listening. It's not a conversation. It's a presentation. And each of those have merit, but they aren't the same thing.
00:38:11
Speaker
And I am quite contented setting the stage up. for good conversations. And it's not like I'm lessening my role in that. I think that's a pivotal role. You know, why am I talking to you guys? Because it might be interesting.
00:38:25
Speaker
And this is where it's actually unfolding right here under under our watch. That's the best bit. I have a little story that I will share because it offers a bit of insight, perhaps.
00:38:37
Speaker
You know, I'd been asked, are are you in love with your subjects? Well, no, it it that really isn't the emotional truth of it. You know, you're certainly connected to them. And it wasn't a it wasn't a dumb question. It's kind of a an honest question, isn't it? Because there is obviously a connection there.
00:38:54
Speaker
And i had a phone call from a client in Chicago and his first opening, okay, he never quite figured out that he was west of me. So he used to call it the most ungodly hours. And, it you know, in his opener, I'd been looking for a sculptor. i've Six of my family members were murdered in the Holocaust. And I want a a remembrance. I want to commemorate something for my parents, who are now quite senior.
00:39:19
Speaker
And, you know, in that phone call, I said to him, oh, well, you know, if if three people hold hands, you have a star, you have a triangle. And if you do that twice,
00:39:30
Speaker
we can intertwine their arms and have the Star of David. Well, the minute you have that idea, right, it it then comes the famous question, well, how hard can that be? I mean, it is such a lovely idea as a concept. So, of course, we were smitten. Then it's really just a discussion of how big or how small.
00:39:46
Speaker
And then, of course, in as we proceeded with the conversation, it it was revealed that, in fact, these six people would be his grandparents on both sides, and one each of their offspring. So what would have been an aunt and would have been an uncle.
00:40:01
Speaker
Now, the uncle was this child named David, who actually, i think I worked from the picture of him when he started school. He was about six and an absolutely gorgeous child. so and of the you know So discussion of photos, right? You don't have a lot of photos of these people.
00:40:16
Speaker
and But the client said, you know, this this child, David, looks so much like my youngest son, Colton. at Just in passing, you know, it was just something that of interest. And we proceeded with the commission and I finished it. We shipped it down and I went to Chicago for the dedication.
00:40:32
Speaker
And I was standing in the synagogue and this child bootled into the room. And it was all I could do to keep from scooping him up. I was a astonished because I'm not really ah a baby snatcher. You know, I'm just like, I admire other people's children, but you know, I'm just, that's not instinctive for me at all.
00:40:51
Speaker
And I was shocked at my own, like, it was like my own son had suddenly come into the room as a four year old. I could hardly keep from grabbing him. And of course he didn't know me from anybody. I, I kept it together, but I realized what the connection was. I become devoted.
00:41:07
Speaker
It is the same thing as bonding with your infant. Yeah. You're staring at that face and they are staring at yours. And it is you are devoted to this person. It's like looking at an old class photo.
Emotional Connections in Sculpture
00:41:20
Speaker
And, you know, it's this big, right? And the faces are about the size of a thumbprint. And you can spot your dad in heartbeat and you know it's him. And all you're getting is four little shadows yeah on a head. you know and You know, absolutely who it is. Like that the the connection that those features, however subtle.
00:41:36
Speaker
makes with each of us is just shocking to me. And I think that's why portraiture can never quite be dismissed because that's how we engage with one another. And it holds us and we maybe hate it or maybe we love it, but it's hard to understand the power of it. But I think the power of it is real.
00:41:53
Speaker
And that was, that was a little bit of a Pinocchio moment for you. Kind of. Oh, it was shocking, but I, but I did at last answer that question, you know, and understand what the emotional truth of that connection yes and And that was just a clarifying moment. I mean, I guess Oscar's dogs didn't describe it well enough.
00:42:13
Speaker
Well, they require more smell than vision. So that's probably what the problem is. Well, I guess so. But it's that same thing, though. What the heck? We're very keyed into our our brains are evolved for recognizing faces. Yes.
00:42:28
Speaker
So I can imagine how staring at a face for probably hundreds of hours for when you're doing a study. Well, for some, certainly. Maybe dozens for some. I mean, that was what was curious about the queen's face.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah. honestly with with a portrait very often you don't have anything until you have everything you know you don't want to show clients photos too early because until you feel it's well resolved it looks alien you know it's goofy and you don't want them worried and you don't want them anxious and you don't want them second guessing or you know can we look again tomorrow i mean i've never had that but there is this moment where you kind of have to have everything to have anything and yet when i started the queen so this is actual size, so life and a half. I guess she's about 17 inches high, maybe chest to top of head.
00:43:16
Speaker
And yet she was instantly there. She was present. She was familiar. And there's nothing remarkable about what I was working on particularly. What was remarkable is being reminded of how indelibly she is she is in our imaginations.
00:43:33
Speaker
And when you go to look for pictures of the queen, you start to understand how beautifully curated she is in her own life. right we we know ah you know the best angles of the queen and those angles, those shots, those you know where those are the pictures that show up in People magazine or in the big coffee table books about the queen.
00:43:53
Speaker
She is well edited, but at some point I'm quite willing to work with that because I am sculpting. The queen. So therefore, I am sculpting what you already have in your imagination.
00:44:07
Speaker
There's no point in me adding something in there. might be true, but if it's not familiar to you, it's in the way of the the power of the portrait. So it is kind of chicken and egg. You do what you need because you need what you do. And and but and but she was instantly recognizable, like right from the get go.
00:44:24
Speaker
Because other artists have have bucked that with ah varying responses. For instance, some the recent portrait of King Charles, which um caused a little bit of a controversy. The one. Yes, exactly. one. Yeah. But he still looks like King Charles.
00:44:39
Speaker
It's a beautiful rendering yeah of King Charles. Absolutely. i would like to know more about all the red. I find it just a bit bloody for my taste, but I've never heard any artist comment that You know, i I would offer this when I was going to sculpt ah Margaret Atwood.
00:44:54
Speaker
Right. Oh, right the hair. You know, that this is an element. This is very much a part of who Atwood is. And mean, I've sculpted lots of hair successfully. I wasn't worried about it in a number of interviews. So she talks about wearing all these different hats because she has no day job. She can comment on anything she wants or or feel strongly about because she's not in fear of losing a day job.
00:45:17
Speaker
Fine. I could have done that. She would have been really great in ah in a just honking Canadian toque. But then the joke doesn't convey, you see. That's the thing.
00:45:29
Speaker
Without knowing that, it just looks like the sculptor couldn't be bothered. And I would never yeah be content with that. So I finally just had to backtrack. The secondary part of hair is that it's sort of people's energy, I think. you know I schlomped Gould's hair on in about 20 minutes and never touched it again.
00:45:47
Speaker
You know, it's often the last thing you do because you want a light touch on it. And and you you really do. Or I like to just grace it in so it doesn't look overworked.
00:45:58
Speaker
And honestly, there was no way of wading into Atwood's hair without it looking more sculpted. And I really i really had to decide. You know, what was what was going on with the hair? And was that the approach?
00:46:12
Speaker
It wasn't hard to do. You know, it was quite a pleasure. I don't mind. It's visual rhythm. Right. Doesn't doesn't matter to me. But it was a completely different approach than I'd done on anybody else's hair.
00:46:23
Speaker
Mackenzie King had hair like a mouse and it was so shiny. Right. ah In every photograph of the man. None of this frowzy stuff, you know? Flat and smooth as silk.
00:46:34
Speaker
ah Quite amazing. And did you get Margaret Atwood's response to your sculpture? or Oh, I think she quite liked it. I mean, it's larger than her. It's younger than her. ah Yeah, no, i'm I'm pleased with this as a portrait. But in fairness, it's a it's a bit of a cautionary.
00:46:48
Speaker
But i am I'm working for my client, right? right And in this case, my client is not Atwood. My client is the Geographic Society. you know i was thinking of Al Waxman's portrait because it was commissioned by the retailers the in the in the Kensington market.
00:47:08
Speaker
They commissioned the portrait, but they wanted Al's wife to be part of it. And she was fabulous, but she was walking a really fine line because she wanted to have input and they wanted her to have input.
00:47:21
Speaker
But she knew that I was actually obliged to work to their satisfaction. And no, she was she was, Sarah was fabulous to work with, but she was very aware of that delineation. And and it's not usually quite so personal or quite so in your face.
00:47:38
Speaker
I mean, I did meet Margaret Atwood and and I do think she liked the portrait. We had ah quite a lot of fun actually unveiling it and over over a beautiful lunch in Ottawa, but she hadn't been part of the process. She didn't have to approve it. She, yeah you know, that was never the obligation in the terms of the work.
00:47:54
Speaker
Now you did pick ah an influence that you were interested in possibly talking about. Who, who was that? Well, I, I chose Aubrey Beardsley. Yes. Who was an, an English illustrator.
00:48:07
Speaker
Because I think it would be fair to say that that's just, I remember meeting his work my first summer in working in summer stock. my My first stage manager was from Saskatchewan and he and his wife, his wife is an history major.
00:48:22
Speaker
And they too were very familiar with the TransCanada and they'd come to Lindsay and Jen at that point had decided that she really had to part with some of her art books. and And she had these big Dover paperback of the early and the later works of Beardsley.
00:48:37
Speaker
And I was just smitten. I'd never seen anything like it. My background was farming and music, not art, let's be honest. And I was 17. But everything about his work, I thought was just spectacular.
00:48:51
Speaker
And it was it was profound for me, the the silhouette, the sense of space and line, this wonderful economy where you sort of feel that it's lavish, and it is.
00:49:03
Speaker
But there isn't anything there that you don't need. you know I think it was the silhouette, and I think yeah in in hindsight, you know after 40 years, there are a lot of similarities. you know I come at my bronzes as a silhouette.
00:49:18
Speaker
you know they It's like you see them down the street and think, what the heck is... like what Who is that? you know and And I love the democracy of of so sculpture, period, but... all which includes portraits. you know You can stand on your head to look at them if you want.
00:49:34
Speaker
You can see them in any light of day. You can approach them in any direction. And if you've done it well, then there's a sense that they really have to walk around it. you know That somehow the contours draw you in to explore. And in that respect,
00:49:51
Speaker
it feels akin to Beardsley. And then they just that may just be for me. I have no way of commenting. but But the fact that he always leaves you with some sense that that you've taken a snippet out of a much bigger picture somehow.
Artistic Challenges and Collaborations
00:50:04
Speaker
And that really works for me also as a metaphor for the portraits because honest none of us live in a vacuum. You know, you can't You can't read the last celebrity chapter of Oscar Peterson's life and go, oh, well, you know, the man was so talented.
00:50:20
Speaker
No wonder he had an amazing career, you know? yeah It's never that simple. It is never that simple. And he was on tour at a point when the monkeys, you know, yeah Oscar could hardly pay the rent.
00:50:32
Speaker
And the monkeys we're were tearing up the streets in London. And at some point, yeah I don't know that I need to embellish that one, you know? difficult moment for...
00:50:43
Speaker
a person with his kind of talent, and the fact that he kept his composure and his dignity throughout a career of six decades is just astonishing to me. But it is that, say you know, at one point, the there was discussion in putting Oscar in position, you know, shouldn't he be on a dais, some sort of elevated thing? And I said, absolutely not.
00:51:07
Speaker
We Canadians want to believe that these people have come out life with the same five senses we have. We like it. We really want to believe that we offer equal opportunity.
00:51:18
Speaker
You know, there's lots of room for improvement, but we believe in it as a component of our society. And ah to say nothing of safety hazard, you know, grandma's backing up with the camera, you know, she's off the step. That's just absolutely true.
00:51:33
Speaker
To say nothing of of street cleaners and garbage collection and, ah you know, and kids jumping on and on and skateboards and dear me, but It doesn't enhance the portrait.
00:51:44
Speaker
And if it did, I would consider it. I would try and do it another way. But I don't like it. The Queen is, as I mentioned, like she really is the most traditional. The plinth was specified in the call. It was a call to artists.
00:51:55
Speaker
Five were asked, four participated, you know, by putting submissions in and two were finalists. And the plinth was very much a part of that. specification. It was to be a bookend for the Queen Victoria that's there.
00:52:06
Speaker
Is that at Queen's Park? I don't, where is that? Yes, they both are now. It's Queen's, we could lose the apostrophe and just have plural Queen's Park now. park yeah and Queen's Victoria's portrait was commissioned in the 1860s. Curiously enough, I think I'm telling you right that it was made in England. There's a copy in Hong Kong, there's a copy in South Africa of that same one. It was sent to Toronto and sent back to England because nobody wanted to pay for it.
00:52:31
Speaker
It did not go in the ground in Toronto until about 40 years after the death. Toronto the good. Wow. Strikes again. 1910. Well, you know, I think by comparison, mine went on long enough, but I think I got off lucky ah compared to that. And and ah in a curious way, how perfect.
00:52:49
Speaker
You know, we're not the first generation to debate whether a monarchy has value to us. yeah And every time you have regime change, every time, you know, those are good conversations. And I think even the portraits, even discussion of the portraits are of value because they move our thoughts in ways that we would not otherwise move them.
00:53:08
Speaker
You know, they are a catalyst to move us all forward. And in that respect, honestly, i would take I would take a controversial portrait over a truly commemorative work. You know, we will all pass away.
00:53:20
Speaker
And the burden of grief, you know, sculpting the ah Jewish family and sculpting John Hirsch the same winter, that's That's a dark cloud. you know just yeah This is a hard go. And there's i it took me it took me and Al Waxman, too. you know His was a different story. but But the first year, we did it right after his death. And there's ah an element of grief. you know You're meeting with the family, and they're all grieving. you know They're doing the first year without dad, first birthday without dad, first anniversary.
00:53:49
Speaker
The burden of grief is real. And and in that respect, i would I would do legacy work, even controversial legacy work. Because I do think those conversations move us forward. That's the fascinating thing of how we, the public audience, changes over time.
00:54:04
Speaker
And it's curious that they are different, but truly commemorative work is burdened. Have you ever been intimidated by a commission or a piece of work?
00:54:15
Speaker
Oh, well, yeah all of them, you know. Oscar P. Like, yes and no. Like, you... you you um
00:54:26
Speaker
ah Yes and no. Like in the end, I think I'm the most likely person to do a decent job of the Queen. So I don't give it a lot of thought. You know, i i I like what I can do. And and and the Queen in particular, ah kind of went for to bat for that project because I figured that I could catch exactly what I wanted and what would be fitting for the Queen.
00:54:49
Speaker
And I knew the work of the other finalists. She's done some handsome work and she has since passed. So that would have been a car crash in the making that no one could know at the time. right But um what what is interesting about the other bronzes at in Queen's Park in Toronto,
00:55:03
Speaker
is that three or four of them were made by Walter Allward. So Allward was the Canadian sculptor born in Toronto, the local boy, and he did the Vimy Memorial in France for the First World War. And it is a staggering piece work. That's an amazing piece work. So the short answer is you've got this local guy who can do such a nice job, for heaven's sakes, get him to do several.
00:55:26
Speaker
you know I don't know that, like all of the discussion when the southern states was taking down public statuary. Yeah. You know, it it begs further scrutiny of why these bronzes at Queen's Park and who did them and who asked for them.
00:55:39
Speaker
And I have to say, people have to be forgiven. Allward lived downtown. Let's get him. He's really, he does nice work. And I never had the sense that there was an agenda.
00:55:50
Speaker
And in doing the math for my own stuff, 90%, like counting Alan's collection of of five commissions, Even counting that in, more than 90% of my commissions are community and committee driven.
00:56:05
Speaker
You know, this is people wanting to do something for their community. I mean, there's of course, there are bigger donations from people with a bit more disposable income. But this is not the well-heeled having their way in public space, not in this country.
00:56:18
Speaker
And Oscar Peterson in particular, you know, had a national portrait committee that fundraised, you know, but it but it was it was small donations. Checks, 25 bucks, 100 bucks. You know, when and when when funding trickled off, Rosemary Thompson was head of communications at the National Arts Centre.
00:56:34
Speaker
And she'd book another interview and and I would do some other radio stint. And then money would just, but it didn't, it trickled in. But it trickled in consistently. And that's a good thing.
00:56:46
Speaker
Well, think so. Yeah, people are putting their money where their mouth is and where their hearts are. Yeah, yeah Canadian culture is crowdsourced. Yes. Yeah. yeah So I want to ask then, how much is it going to cost to get a bust out of Mark?
00:56:59
Speaker
Oh, we can come up with something very reasonable. If it's only a few inches tall, then it'd be fine. we I'm not sculpting that mic scan, though. yeah The mic stand's fine. I haven't touched it.
00:57:14
Speaker
It's all good. You know what was curious is that the cost of bronze as a raw material doubled yeah before COVID and after. And I set all my prices with my foundry. you know I basically send them a sketch and say, if I was doing this, this you know this high, this these are the specs, how much?
00:57:31
Speaker
And then you know if it's just a bust, maybe it has to be molded. if it's If it's a figure, then then it's a different process. i pick you know There are a couple of spectacular foundries in this country.
00:57:42
Speaker
And I choose according to what I need for each project, what is the most financially feasible. And then, of course, they have other work that's theirs to to boss or discuss. But all my prices are just are established. and And honestly, for a bust, I'm not as good at that because mostly I do bigger stuff. So your head might have to take a few weeks to sort.
00:58:02
Speaker
ah Now, Ruth, we could talk to you all night long. This has been a ah fantastic and terrific ah conversation. Before I let you go, I got to check with Mark. Mark, is there anything else I have so many more questions. I just so desperately ah want to ask a perverse question. When you're looking at a piece of public art, that's especially in bronze, it's part of your brain thinking, how much did this cost to make?
00:58:26
Speaker
It's like Georgia O'Keeffe saying, you know, I don't like to go to galleries and look at paintings. I know too much about them. Yeah, exactly. yeah my My concern, to be perfectly frank, is that I had a 20-year apprenticeship to be able to do what I can do.
00:58:40
Speaker
And I don't know where yeah else you would go in this country to get anything akin to that. And sadly, I think there's a very real chance that in trying to offer and That was my comment to my husband a couple of years ago, looking at a piece, and both of us were a bit dumbfounded at the rendering.
00:58:55
Speaker
And I said to him, you know, that's what opportunity looks like. Because you want to offer people the opportunity. One day, I will be dead, and somebody else will have to do this. You know, we'll be asked to do this. yeah and the And the truth is that in this country, I don't think there's very solid preparation for the doing of it.
00:59:14
Speaker
And I would forgive people. committees for feeling that things are overpriced when people aren't in love with the work. You know, words there was discussion about the cost of Oscar, and in the end, I have absolutely no hesitation going to bat for what for what that cost.
00:59:30
Speaker
You know, I don't. but and And oddly enough, the minute they see it and love it, they don't either. You know, that's the thing, for it to be that loved you know I mean, it needs to be fairly priced. i don't think of i don't ever see my clients as walking wallets.
00:59:45
Speaker
like This is not a hostage taking, but my concern in this country is that there isn't enough place to learn to do it well. And then you're offered an opportunity for which you're unprepared. And that leads to work that is both expensive, it should be an investment, but it should be a moving piece of artwork. Right.
01:00:02
Speaker
And people could be forgiven for a sense of hostility for public art because it isn't an inexpensive hobby. But I think that's my concern. how How do you learn to do this before you have to do that very public thing in private?
01:00:18
Speaker
What great question. And I don't really have the answer to that, you know, because my story is unique enough and and i I have taught. But at some point, as much as I love the process of helping other people problems,
01:00:31
Speaker
their problems and ask questions. I'm very aware of the fact that I could spend a lot of time with them and they would never become me. They would just never have what these hens can do. But, you know, that's, I've been doing this for nearly 50 years for heaven. But you know what? Sometimes people step up.
01:00:48
Speaker
You I remember, yeah for yeah I'm not sure this is a great example, but in my ah high school jazz band, When we were in grade 11, we looked at the grade 12s and we're like, oh my God, those guys are so awesome. How are ever going to do that? How are we ever going to be that?
01:01:02
Speaker
And then the next year we were that. Absolutely. And it's not, you know, it's not that the opportunity shouldn't be offered. I don't, you know, I can't be a stick in the mud. I just think that it's real as, as arts training shifts, it's endlessly adapted. It's, and but you know, it's digital. It's, it's a lot of things.
01:01:21
Speaker
but And I think you can't get lost in the jargon. A large version of something mediocre is still just a large piece that's mediocre. And yeah the enlargement technology has kind of gotten into a hold of people's imagination and it has its place and I've used it, but it won't necessarily give you that spark that makes a piece breathtaking.
01:01:41
Speaker
Ruth, I'd love to talk to you all night long. and that You probably have things to do. But Ruth Abernethy, thank you very much for being on our podcast, Recreative. You are welcome. Lovely to meet you. My pleasure. Thanks, guys.
01:02:17
Speaker
You've been listening to Recreative, a podcast about creativity and the works that inspire it. Recreative is produced by Mark Rainer and Joe Mahoney for Donovan Street Press Inc. in association with Monkey Joy Press.
01:02:31
Speaker
Technical production of music by Joe Mahoney, web design by Mark Rainer. You can support this podcast by checking out our guests' work, listening to their music, purchasing their books, watching their shows, and so on.
01:02:44
Speaker
You can find out more about each guest in all of our past episodes by visiting re-creative.ca. That's re-creative.ca. You can contact us by emailing joemahoney at donovanstreetpress.com. We'd love to hear from you.
01:02:59
Speaker
Thanks for listening.