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Robert Runte and Yellowface
60 Plays2 months ago
Editor and writer Robert Runte joins Mark and Joe on the podcast to encourage everyone to read R. F. Kuang’s satire of the publishing industry, Yellowface.
Before they get into Yellowface, the lads discuss the nature of editing. “Most publishing houses work off the Chicago Manual of Style,” Robert says, “mainly because it was the first style guide for books.”
Robert outlines how he approaches the art of editing with different writers.
He loves R. F. Kuang’s Yellowface, and recommends that everyone listen to the audiobook version of the novel because the actor, Helen Glazer, picks up all the subtleties of the story. Robert says the Glazer does such a good job of showing you the narrator’s point of view that she gets the reader through the most cringe-inducing and tough bits of satire. He says, “If you’re a writer or you want to be a writer, you HAVE to read this book!”
A fun read and a fun conversation!
For more information, check out the show notes for this episode.
Re-Creative is produced by Donovan Street Press Inc. in association with MonkeyJoy Press.
Contact us at joemahoney@donovanstreetpress.com
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Transcript
Pleasantries and Breakfast Routines
00:00:09
Speaker
Good evening, Mark. Good evening, Joe. You are looking well. Well, thank you. Is that unusual? ah No, I think you're normally looking pretty well, but you got like this ruddy glow right now. how You must have been outside or something today. Well, lots of walking in the dog. You look ah very well yourself. Yeah, I spent the night sweats out in the garden today, so that's my happy place. Nice. So what about ah for breakfast? what's what's What makes you happy?
00:00:35
Speaker
My breakfast has become more and more elaborate over the years. Yeah. It's a kind of a problem, but I, cause it takes time, but, uh, but I enjoy it. It's, um, one day my parents came to visit and, uh, and they asked to have English muffins on hand, which I never ever had.
00:00:58
Speaker
Cause I was always, I never ate breakfast for like 30 years. And then when I did, I, you know, and would eat like raisin bran. And so I had this, this English muffin and I put some peanut butter and jam on it and I'm like, this is awesome. And so then I just started having like an English muffin with peanut butter and jam and I would add a banana.
00:01:17
Speaker
And then I'd add like an apple and then grapes and then a bit of yogurt. And it became this huge production that I basically have every morning and I eat it while I'm doing my little social media for writing and, uh, and reading the Toronto star, the electronic version. And I love it. It's one of my favorite times of the day.
00:01:36
Speaker
Well, actually, we're not that different. I mean, I was like you, I didn't have breakfast for many, many years. And that's a mistake. ah Because yeah, you you need some food in you when you start the day. um No, I'm not as interesting as you. I just have the same breakfast every morning. I call it colon blow. It's smart brand. What colon colon blow. It's got like Oh, Colin, the colon blow. Remember that, that sketch for Saturday Night Live? You'd have to, you'd have to eat 12,000 bowls of cornflakes to get the same amount of fiber. So yeah, it's like heavy in fiber and I add, cause that's not enough fiber. I add chia seeds and I wash it down with oat milk and that's my breakfast. And I do the same thing. I eat it while I'm doing my social media. Yeah. That and coffee.
00:02:20
Speaker
like Oh yeah, like so all your little funny memes of weird looking dogs and and the thing that you do. That's while I'm having my coffee. Yep, that's exactly. While you're eating your colon blow. My colon blow. I'll never be able to see your social media the same again. I'll be like, oh, he did this while he was doing his colon blow.
00:02:39
Speaker
No, I wasn't blowing up my colon. I was having colon blow. Different thing entirely. Okay. Shall we post this? ah You said this is going to be a stupid question, but I think it's one of your finest questions to do. How about you, Robert? What's your morning routine? White bread with peanut butter. That's it. Yeah, occasionally my wife cooks breakfast. She likes cooking breakfast. so I indulge that. ah ah You know, for some reason, I expected more. But for 30 years I went without breakfast and then when I married my wife, she introduced me to the concept. So but we go on for breakfast quite a bit. So we're all late adopters to having breakfast. Yeah. Yeah. What is it with us guys not eating breakfast for decades? Well, I had this mistaken notion that it was just the done thing. You don't have breakfast. You just start your day.
00:03:35
Speaker
And probably because my father was like that. But yeah, it's not very pleasant really when you think about it. It's nice to have something in your belly when you begin your day. i write like Well, I just enjoy eating it. Yeah. robert I went without because I was always late for class.
00:03:52
Speaker
There's a good reason. The one I was taken or the one I was given, right? Yeah. Well, you're never late if you're teaching.
00:04:00
Speaker
That's the rule. That's the only benefit of the job. So, okay.
Robert's Journey in Sci-Fi Fandom
00:04:06
Speaker
Speaking of like, you know, learning things late, we have learned to introduce our guest a little bit earlier. Nice. Nice segue. In the podcast. Yeah. So Robert Rente, why don't you, I don't know if you know, that's our shtick in this podcast is to get the the guests to introduce themselves, frame their own reality. My history is that back in the 70s I discovered the science fiction fandom. I started out eating fanzines and then at that point I was trying to read through all the award-winning science fiction there was, so Nebula and Hugo award winners. When I discovered there was such a thing as Canadian science fiction,
00:04:47
Speaker
So I decided to forget the award winners. I'm going to read everything that's Canadian. and slowly discovered there's quite a bit of that. ah Started writing about that in my fanzines and ah discovered I had become a reviewer and critic of Canadian science fiction. So I did that for a number of years and produced the NCF Guide to Canadian Science Fiction Fandom, for example, in the 80s. And then as a reviewer, I reviewed one self-published book. I gave it quite a rave you view to and the,
00:05:19
Speaker
author contacted me and turned out to have a small press and after discussing with her for a while I ended up as the editor for Five Rivers Publishing. Lorena Stevens I'm guessing. Absolutely right and as ah she hired a second editor I became senior editor as far as for about a decade senior editor with Five Rivers Publishing which was very enjoyable and ah Got me quite a long way in terms of learning the business lorino always took care of the business business part of things but understanding about editing i
00:05:57
Speaker
like to think I got to be a decent editor. As part of that, Dave Duncan brought a book to the press because he he had one. He thought he didn't want to go to his regular people. He liked me, so he gave it to me as kind of a gift. And I ended up doing nine books with five rivers with Dave Duncan.
00:06:18
Speaker
and a 10th that he did for another publisher where he he needed editing, but they weren't gonna do it. Dave Duncan, I'll just point out a ah very prominent ah ah fantasy author. Also science fiction. That's true, yes. But he was one of my favorite authors. And then, you know, the chance to actually edit his books. I'd been a beta reader for his books for about 10 years before that. So that then when he had this extra book and needed the publisher came to us because I'd been his debater reader.
00:06:47
Speaker
And then on that basis I became known within the community as an editor and now I opened my own freelance editing business in 2016. So I've been doing that pretty much ever since as well as editing books for Lorena until ah basically she closed down the business for personal reasons.
00:07:08
Speaker
And now, um having retired from being a professor, which was my day job for many years, I think I've had over 100 short stories published. And I'm working on my novel, but I just...
00:07:21
Speaker
We have to talk about your novel, but I should just ah point out as well, a full disclosure that you edited my first book, A Time and a Place, and you also graciously edited and wrote the foreword for my little short story collection, Other Times and Places. yeah Thank you for that. Yeah, it was fun.
00:07:40
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it was so to me, it was um I always say that working with ah Matt Watts, who we've had in this podcast and who I work with that CBC Radio was one of the greatest creative collaborations in my life. You were the second. Yeah, because it was terrific. It was so much that I'll take second on the call sheet. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. And of course, the third is that is ongoing with Mark Rayner.
00:08:08
Speaker
doing the Well, maybe I can get some more status and get up to second at some point. yeah Well, you you can try. yeah the The greatest honor for me was ah in the middle of a convention when words collide. Dave Duncan stood up and said, well, I just have to say something. He said, Robert's the best editor I've ever worked with, um which did not do my career any harm.
00:08:31
Speaker
um what which, you know, he's had 65 books published. I only did 10 of them with him. So um that was a great honor to say compared to these really big name editors that he had worked to up to then. When he passed away, he left his remaining manuscripts to me to finish editing and or writing, because I was so familiar with his work, he thought I could channel him. So there's no greater honor. He was my favorite author, right?
00:09:02
Speaker
And then ah now two of those books have come out. The Traitor's Son came out in May and the corridor to Nightmare just shipped yesterday. So it'll be launched officially at When Words Collide, but it's I think it's on pre-order now. And so those were the two I was working with him. I was editing for him when he passed away.
00:09:22
Speaker
But there are, you know, a bunch of others. The question is, you know, am I up to finishing them? No, I do have his other beta readers, so they won't let me put out anything that wouldn't be up to his standard. But, you know, I always wanted to grow up to be Dave Duncan, but I didn't mean it quite so literally, right, that I'd end up channeling his his ghost.
00:09:44
Speaker
But it's been exciting in editing those two books and and shepherding them through to publication.
The Role and Necessity of Editors
00:09:50
Speaker
and And before we leave the subject of editors, I i have to name check Arlene Welf, who also did the first passive edit on on A Time in a Place and who I also loved working with.
00:10:00
Speaker
And I can't actually choose between the two of you. So yeah, that's good. No, having an editor, you know, like I think, Oh, if my book, I don't need an editor because I'm an editor. Yeah, no, i need yeah everybody needs an editor. You can't see your own problems. Everything was going to say with the da Duncan books.
00:10:19
Speaker
There's another story I really like. He was my hero and became you know ah my client and and a person I worked with. ah When he brought his books to Five Rivers, we had a cover artist and ah he said, okay, do you think Dave would like me to do it this way or that way? I said, well, just ask Dave. He said, I can't talk to Dave Duncan.
00:10:40
Speaker
It turned out that that was his hero, that he had decided to become a cover artist because he wanted to grow up and do covers like the ones he was seeing on the Dave Duncan books he was reading. So he was completely blown away that he got to do 9 or 10 Dave Duncan covers. And then um when we got the two more recent, the two posthumous volumes out, we also had him do the covers for that.
00:11:07
Speaker
So he's now done say 12 Dave Duncan covers, which is the realization of his dream as well. Well, you know what the, I mean, these people are i' great writers and whatnot, but at the end of the day, they do put their pants on one leg at a time. So just like the rest of us Mark, have you ever done editing? Not an affection. Well, I did for at university though. So I don't really count it. It was a long time ago. I was the editor, co-editor, one of the art, the arts paper at Queens.
00:11:37
Speaker
But um yeah, i I haven't really done it at the level you guys are doing it at. But I've worked with a lot of editors. I've i've worked with at least six different editors in terms of the novels I've written, and then probably even more with the short stories. And um yeah, for me, I agree i would say,
00:11:55
Speaker
I'm with David on this. I mean, sorry, Robert on this, that you have to have an editor. and Did you just call him Dave? I did. Yeah. He's actually, he's actually absorbing Dave Duncan's essence as we speak. Yeah. It's, it's very convincing. Um, yeah. So I think that you do need to have an editor as part of your process. It's, it's critical. And I know that there's, we've got a different approach to it here in North America than they do in the UK. Like I know in the UK, there's, there's less.
00:12:26
Speaker
collaboration between author and editor. Oh, really? ah That's my understanding is it's a little bit more hands-off. Now, maybe that's changed over the years, but because- Because what? They just don't have the patience? They're just, I'm just gonna- Well, no, i think I think that more of the idea that the author is you know authorial, you know it's like it's their work. So we're just here to mind the P's and Q's.
00:12:48
Speaker
I want to talk about editing for a little bit, if we can, before we get into Robertson Pickett. So Mark sent me, because i'm I'm currently editing Mark's book of short stories, which is going to be the the first official book published by my fledgling little publishing company. As I'm editing, I'm thinking, I know Robert Runte, I know Arlene Ralph, you know, and and every now and then I'll point something out to Mark and he'll go,
00:13:15
Speaker
Well, Joe, that's not how the Chicago manual the style does it. So he, Mark actually sent me the, and do I even have the name right? The Chicago manual. Yeah, that's right. yeah manles out that's right yeah Yeah. And that was, and i I asked you before I said it to you, is it okay if I sent you, cause I didn't want to be some sort of passive aggressive asshole saying, Hey, you might find this helpful. I was trying to be helpful.
00:13:42
Speaker
Yeah and it completely is it's like sitting beside my laptop all the time and but the the only unhelpful thing about it is that you know i see some like eccentric comma placement and then well okay there goes the next forty five minutes cuz i'm into the chicago manual have that is a problem reading that twelve pages on cars.
00:14:01
Speaker
yeah So I wanted to ask Robert, yeah sorry, did you have something else to say? No, I did because I did actually have a chance to work as an editor professionally, but in ah in a communications job where I was editing. So I was the guy who's producing the um the brochures for the the the the Continuing Studies program at Western. And so everyone would provide me their course outlines and it was a disaster. I mean,
00:14:26
Speaker
trying to get it to some form of consistency and getting the language right. And it was really helpful. I did it for four years and I and i did improve as a writer because of it. That's when I went, I need a style manual. And then I looked around and said, oh, I guess this is the style manual that most people use in the publishing industry, which is what I'm interested in. So I chose that one. So I sort of said to my journalism roots, sorry guys, CP, sorry, I'm done with you. Canadian Press? No.
00:14:56
Speaker
Is that what you use, Robert? ah Yeah, most publishing houses work off of the Chicago Manual of Style, though they'll have so idiosyncratic things that will override the manual, right? So the publisher, so Lorena had definite ideas about what ellipses should look like and where commas and and quotation marks should go.
00:15:20
Speaker
And that's fine every house has its own and as long as you're consistent that's perfectly reasonable but most publishers will do the Chicago manual of style for books.
00:15:35
Speaker
Mainly because it was the first style guide for books because Chicago University was the first university to have multiple graduate students and multiple faculties and say, well, we have to have some consistency here because everybody's doing it in a different format. So they put together a committee. They went to the trouble of publishing a manual, you know, and because these are thick books,
00:15:58
Speaker
Other universities would go, yeah, we're not doing that. We're just used there. And so the entire publishing industry went that way with the exception of journal articles. So academic journal articles use APA, the American Association of Psychology,
00:16:17
Speaker
because um they were the first ah academic group with more than one journal. So because they had two journals, they had to put together a committee to say what ah format would be used in their journal, and all the other journals adopted their format. So if it's an article, it's ABA, if it's a book, it's Chicago, except for ah some of the humanities that use the Modern Language Association and a lot of undergraduate courses often use some verity into that, like Turban. But then that's all North America and of course England, completely different set of books. That's always the first question my my
Editing Techniques and Challenges
00:16:55
Speaker
my my students in my LIS, my Library and Information Science courses ask and say, what style guide are you using? It's like, it's out of the gate. it's It makes sense, of course, because they're that's what they're all about is like, right what what's the right style for this?
00:17:09
Speaker
And so that's one of the things you're learning. Like, Oh, first thing authors should know is there is a author ah style guide, right? That's the first thing to know. So most academic journals use APA. Everybody else pretty much uses some version of Chicago. And for publishing, it's such a useful handbook. Now, what the other thing you should know is the new edition comes out in September. So you have to throw out your edition. He sent you. The one that Marcus gave me. Yeah, and and get the new one out. And it's worth it because, you know, we live in changing times. And so
00:17:46
Speaker
their committee tries to, you know, not just say how you do ULRs, but understanding that the whole process and that people now are self-publishing. And they've also just brought out a book for copy editors, like specifically, and for fiction. So um there's there are more resources because they realize its it's been bread and butter for them for years to put up this manual, right? Oh, yeah. And APA was not great because they're ah sixth edition was filled with errors. They didn't copy at it or follow their own format. like god That is like, oh my God. It's always a huge scandal, right? So now we're using the seventh edition and there might be an eighth one coming as things change, right? But i'm emrasing but that was that was bad. So we haven't even touched on journalism. I mean, no. I mean, here in Canada, we use Canadian press.
00:18:45
Speaker
the CP style guide. We don't like the impress anymore. It's politically incorrect today is it because it was advanced when it was made. When it was made, they adopted American style yeah because they wanted to assert Canadian independence from the British Empire.
00:19:03
Speaker
but so Sure, I believe that. yeah Eliminated a lot of Canadianisms, right? So Canadian ed editors now prefer not to use CP because there's two American spelling, right? So Canadian copy editors ah go to the, oh, my brain's gone blank, but there's a ah dictionary of Canadian, right?
00:19:24
Speaker
It hasn't been updated for a long time, so the Canadian Editors Association has undertaken the next revision. so Yeah, because CP updates caps and spelling every year. I don i personally never really enjoyed a CP. I disagree with how they want us to modeto spell percent, for example. It just yeah it doesn't look it's just doesn't look right to me. I'm pretty atheistic in terms of what spelling things should be.
00:19:50
Speaker
I've chosen in all my work American spellings because I sell more books. I'm sorry, but I sell way more books. I sell 10 times the number of books in America than I do here in Canada. so yeah and That's certainly true for most self publishers. They'll choose American spelling because they're trying to sell to the American market. Why wouldn't you? Let me ask this. did they Did the Americans care? Are they actually put off? if they They actually care. I mean, I don't meet a lot of Canadian readers who really care.
00:20:19
Speaker
person. But yeah, no, a lot of American readers will put on their Amazon, this book should needed editing, the spelling was all wrong, because they're stupid, right? So they don't know that they're different. I wouldn't say that, but okay. Because they know what they know, that's all. They should at least know that British spelling is different, right? And understand they're looking at British if it's not American. But no, they should be thankful. Russian words.
00:20:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's all it's all air filled. Just wait a few years till we use it rush in there, Joe. oh boy Okay, so yeah we're just going to continue nerding out on editing for a little bit. Robert, can I ask you what are the biggest challenges for you as an editor? um Oh, there's so many.
00:21:08
Speaker
it It depends. When you're dealing with senior writers, like people who've been doing it a lot versus ones who've never been edited before, they're a whole different set of issues, right? um When you first meet somebody, sometimes, oh, can you sign a non-disclosure agreement? Because I'm afraid you're going to steal my idea.
00:21:29
Speaker
Right. that You get that level of naivety. Right. Yeah. No, editors don't steal your ideas. that It never happens. Right. Or that they're very defensive about any changes. Whereas people who've gone through the process a couple of times are not threatened by it. Right. Then they while you're being a little too gentle there, Robert, you know, can you be a little more at all? So it it's quite wait they've accused you of being gentle.
00:21:58
Speaker
Yeah. they But again, you know like it's true. I was quite brutal in my comments to you because I knew you could take it. And and you could also tell when I was joking because we have very yeah similar senses of humor. But there are writers who I would not make the kind of comments I made to you because I knew their fragility. And you know I don't want to say there's a gender component, but I'll be particularly careful with some women because they've been taught you know it's part of the socialization.
00:22:27
Speaker
that you know you're not very good. And they suffer from imposter syndrome. And when I say, oh, this sentence should be changed. they Oh, well, why don't I just stop writing the book? I know I wasn't any good. No, no, it's a great book. It's just this one sentence wasn't clear.
00:22:44
Speaker
You know, I had some grad students like that, right? So anything I said, you know, i you know might want to use Canadian spelling here. Oh my God, I should just quit. I don't even know how to spell. And guys like you and me, we wouldn't even think of that, right? I had the opposite problem. I had you beta read one in my book and there was one scene, you say, oh, this elevator scene needs to be a little more tightened.
00:23:08
Speaker
And I thought, okay, I took out 200 words. And then the next beta reader said, this elevator scene goes on a little too long. Okay, so I took out another 300 words, right? And then I sent it to another author who has the same sort of issues writing with I do. So I thought, oh, she'll recognize it. And her exact quote was, the elevator scene went on so long I wanted to kill myself.
00:23:31
Speaker
ah Now, that was the level liners. Oh, you didn't mean I had to tighten it up. I had to take it out. That's what you were trying to. If people are too polite, too gentle, this could use some work. That's not specific. That's not clear enough for some clients, right? So I'm often quite sharp with people that I know and I've worked with before, I can say, oh my God, what were you thinking in this scene, right? Like in my case, you had a 14 page scene that takes place in an elevator, an an elevator is a 14 second ride, what were you thinking, right? And that would make a point to me, I'd be fine with that, but there are other authors
00:24:14
Speaker
who aren't used to working with editors or have that imposter syndrome or who just are fragile, right? And you cannot say something like that to them. And you just you destroy the project, right? So getting that tone right, it's one of the reasons I always ask for a sample edit before I take on a contract. Because if it's too harsh, I want you to tell me that at the app. I said, if it's too wishy washy, I need to know that so I can adjust my tone.
00:24:43
Speaker
And then, you know, you get people who think they're writing as God's gift to the planet earth and don't want you to touch anything. Well, if you don't want to work with an editor, don't don't work with an editor, go self-publish, right? yeah If you want to have that absolute control, then I can't work with you because at some point you have to, I mean, not necessarily take my input, but hear it, right?
00:25:08
Speaker
I'm perfectly okay when people, so i I saw what you said there, but that's not going to work for this scene. And sometimes it's things I don't know because in the sequel, I need the guy to have said that. Oh, sure. Okay. Right. Or I don't understand why you're having this character here. Well, that's my friend Frank and he needs to be in the book. Okay. That's it. But other times people just, they don't want you to touch any single word. What they really want is praise.
00:25:35
Speaker
And I draw the line saying, you know, I, you know, I charge a fair amount per hour, but, uh, I draw the line and just say, Oh, another one. Don't, cause you know, I'm not going to lie for you. Right. That's this. Could you not just like open up like another avenue of your business? Where do you, let's be clear. Do you want an editor or appraiser? Yeah. No, but some people are prepared to pay a lot of money to have somebody validate, but I can't do that if it actually sucks. Right.
00:26:04
Speaker
I think that's the problem with self-publishing. I believe that most self-publishers don't take the process seriously enough because yeah even if you're self-publishing, you should be getting some editorial help. Okay, but their counter-argument is a convincing one, right?
00:26:21
Speaker
so take ah then valeron who's one of the best writers i know yeah he said look if i pay out thirty thousand five hundred dollars for robert's edit and he didn't name me but if if he pays out thirty five hundred dollars is he going to have enough extra sales prepared and the answer is no right like unless you're at a certain level It's, there's no money to be had by having that editing, right? So there's, that's one argument is some authors are good enough. Like he doesn't need me. Dan's brilliant, right? So at a certain level, it's paying that money is not going to make for a ah better return.
00:27:00
Speaker
So that's one argument they make. The other one is there is a whole community that says editors and English teachers are writing a scam about having this correct English, right? It's all bullshit. There's no such thing as rules. And that well their insistence on it is just a way for them to make money. And this is how we know. We're going to put out a beta issue of my book.
00:27:23
Speaker
and the readers complain in the comments that page 36 was too confusing, they couldn't understand it, then there was a problem with page 36 and I'll go back and look at it, right?
00:27:35
Speaker
If nobody complained about page 36, then there's nothing wrong with page 36 and you're complaining about the split infinitive in the third paragraph, go fuck yourself.
Economics of Self-Publishing and Editing
00:27:44
Speaker
but watch So I kind of understand that because a lot of the rules we were taught in school in our generation are in fact not rules at all, right? I mean, yeah and there's nothing wrong with split infinitives used correctly. And it actually sounds weirder in lots of contexts, especially in dialogue, right?
00:28:03
Speaker
So for yeah sure, there's no one talks like that. Nobody talks like that, right? So they're they're not wrong to some extent. And then within the editing community, there's a big divide between prescriptivists and descriptivists. Now I'm a descriptivist, which means I edit how people actually talk. If the language is being used singular, they is in, then we're we're okay with that, right? There are prescriptivists who say, no, this is correct and what you're doing is wrong.
00:28:30
Speaker
So depending which editor you get, right, prescriptivists are in fact wrong when they tell, you know, self publishers, you can't do it that way. On the other hand, I think editors do a lot more than copy editing, and I think that's another confusion that's out there. They don't understand the difference. That's i was that's what I want to jump in on. It's like, that's just copy editing you're talking about. You're not talking about a line edit. You're not talking about a structural edit. And that's that's where I think, in terms of what I sometimes read in self-publishing,
00:29:02
Speaker
Is that they don't really understand how story works or they don't really understand how to write a decent character and they have no business publishing this book, but they can so they do and like that's so I understand the economic argument and dens totally right. Yeah, like it's going to be hard to make back the money.
00:29:20
Speaker
But at the end of the day, frankly, you're not really doing it for the money and in self-publishing. Yeah, that's not a popular argument. but but you're Okay, but if you think you're going to make a lot of money self-publishing, I'm sorry, you're probably not going to. You might get lucky. Yes, that happens.
00:29:39
Speaker
but I don't think that's the case. So let's not pollute our culture anymore with stuff that's kind of half baked. Let's make something good. That's my argument for why we need editors. Right. I mean, part of the problem is they do their first draft. They're proud of the fact that they finished the whole book because that is a major achievement. None of us should deny.
00:30:00
Speaker
that that isn't a miracle that you got through. I haven't got through the first issue of my book yet. Well, I got the first rep, but they haven't done the second. So I understand that getting it done, that is already a huge step. It is. I agree. 100%. So then they look at it and they think, I'm pretty proud of this. And they show it to their mom and their cousin and they say, this is brilliant. This is just like a real book. And with that,
00:30:26
Speaker
you know, friends and family feedback, they think, well, it's good enough, I'll send it out. Now, as Lorena would always say to me, good enough never is, right? There's always, it could be better. So what happens is one of two things. These people publish five books a year and it's all, you know, one series and it's awful, right? But they still get three, 400 readers and they're perfectly happy, right?
00:30:53
Speaker
There are others that, you know, they put out the first book, they read the reviews and comments on Amazon and say, oh crap, I should i could have done this better. And so they try in their next book to do a little better and they learn, you know, from the feedback they're getting, whether it's an editor or just readers, and they get better. And then I see those people book three or four and they say, I think maybe I could use some professional editing because I'm still getting some negative comments here. I don't understand what they're talking about.
00:31:24
Speaker
Yeah, well, I could come in and fix this book. And how I sell it to them in terms of the economics is, okay, think of it as taking a course in writing from a professional, right right? And by editing this book, I'll teach you how to improve your writing focused on your problems and your strengths. And we're going to use your book as the textbook for this writing class. And then the cost of that is amortized over everything that you write from now on. And if they they see it that way, they're much more willing to invest the money, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. But it's not until they've done, you know, three or four books and have that sort of negative feedback and from readers and think, I should be doing better.
00:32:08
Speaker
And then after they've had ready, oh my God, why didn't I get this on book one? And they'll say to me, oh, I wish I hadn't published book one, it wasn't ready. Yeah, no, I can see it the potential there. If you bring me your book that's first draft, I can show you how to make it, take it to the next level, maybe you up a couple of levels, right?
00:32:31
Speaker
And in fact, if you're struggling with book one, I can help you get over writer's block. I can help you get through, uh, you know, basic structural. and Like the very last book I was editing for Dave Duncan, he said, look, I'm going to send you a book. I've never done this before. I always send it to the editors after I finished and I love it. Right. Is this one's not gelling. It's the sequel to Corda Yours Tonightmare, which is coming out in this week. Right.
00:32:54
Speaker
He said, I can't figure out what's wrong. Well, I read it and within you know an hour, I'd identified to him why it wasn't working. He went, oh, of course, I see it now, right? And so we were starting to work on you know how to fix it. Unfortunately, the last thing he said to me that when I saw him in person was, oh, it means he'll have to change the ending. And I didn't ask him what the ending was, which is, I wish to God I'd done that.
00:33:20
Speaker
too late to find out. It would be much easier to write now. It's whatever I come up with. The number of self-published authors who come to me later say, I wish to God I had never put out that first book or two because it's ruined my brand. They end up having to use a pseudonym because, on the other hand, I had another writer.
00:33:42
Speaker
who was just this just missing the big time, right? Like she was writing stuff that was some of the best stuff across my desk. And I thought, you know, if you just tweak this, you can sell this to the big time. I i almost, I mean, I can't guarantee it, but it it really, it's just, and see, I don't want to do that. I said, no, no, you don't understand. You're you're this close. You just, oh god no, that would be a lot of work.
00:34:13
Speaker
and i and And for a long time, I was kind of shocked by that. right Then I get to my book and you know my beta reader's looking at it, well, you're just, if you could just, I'm going, ah, it sounds like a lot of work. And I realized actually she's right. Like if for her, it wasn't about the money. It wasn't about making a big time. It was about having the fun of writing these books.
00:34:37
Speaker
And they were pretty good books. I mean, they stood on their own. Certainly ah good enough with a lot of stuff we see published, right? Yeah. But you have to be better than good to get in these days, right? I disagree. Based on what I'm reading, I disagree. yeah We all see some stuff out there that that we go, how did that get published? When Snooki was on the best sellers list, I'm like, all right, I don't feel bad anymore.
00:35:05
Speaker
Well, I just wanted to point out that, to you know, regarding what you're saying, Larry McMurtry would talk about like he did not believe that he was the most talented or gifted writer in his generation or in the class of people that he studied writing with, but he was just the most dedicated and willing to put in the work. Yeah. I don't want to portray her as lazy. That's not the issue. It's that she knew exactly what she wanted to get out of the exercise, which was write books for friends and family. And they're great books. I really enjoy them. I certainly enjoyed editing them, right? But the work I was asking her to do would kill that enjoyment. She was right to say no. And you know, when I'm still sitting here, do I really want to go to the trouble of writing this?
Developing and Perfecting a Novel
00:35:46
Speaker
Maybe I should spend some time with my wife, you know, like,
00:35:49
Speaker
You have to make those choices, right? Okay, now before we get to ah your creative pick, let's talk about your book. so So I read it, I don't know how many years ago, and I really want to see it in in print. I'm like super looking forward to it.
00:36:07
Speaker
where Where are we at? What are we looking at? Thank you for saying that. The feedback I got from my beta readers was somewhat confusing because half of them said, take out the romance romance element and just stick with the SF. And the other half said, ah take out the SF and beef up the romance because there's potential here, right? So trying to negotiate what that feedback actually meant and what I had to do. It took me a while to kind of figure out how I i could do that, ah satisfy both sets. um you know When you get completely contradictory thing from exactly half the sample, that that's confusing. But then I got a brilliant editor who is herself a brilliant writer.
00:36:52
Speaker
And I thought, okay. And she did the first three or four chapters and I thought, well, this is exactly what I need. I mean, she's making it so easy for me to to find that middle ground and to like everything she touches just got better in front of me, you know? So I said, okay, finally I have an editor who I totally trust and rate. And then she got COVID and she got along COVID. So she was knocked out of the business for two years.
00:37:21
Speaker
so i know who you're talking right So I put the book aside and then she got better and I thought, oh, now I can actually get to this. But then she has her own projects. She had to put the TV series she was going to do aside ah because of COVID that fell through, right? So now as she's known she's doing author versus AI. Have you heard of this?
00:37:43
Speaker
Oh, i have yes, yes. Yeah. So you guys should interview her. So she's doing a novel a week to show that she can be as productive as A.I. and beat the crap out of any A.I. book. Right. So okay we have what what is her name? Alison McBain.
00:38:03
Speaker
Alison McBain and she's in week 13 and book 13 last time I looked. How close is she to having a nervous breakdown? Not at all. Really? She's still being a ah wonderful parent and spouse and she's doing interviews, she's got all these side projects happening.
00:38:21
Speaker
How long are the novels? That's my next question. 40,000 words. Okay. All right. Okay. That's that's a novel. that's But even so, that's impressive. You know, people have done ah a novel a month, but nobody's tried a novel a week before. And and if anybody could pull it off, she can. Now, her actual, like, if you read The New Empire, which is the last book of hers I reviewed, it's brilliant. It's one of those books that you say, well,
00:38:46
Speaker
why Why hasn't somebody done this before? Like this is, like the concept's brilliant. The execution's brilliant. It's can lit, but also SF, you know. Have you ever done that three day novel writing contest?
00:38:58
Speaker
So the idea is you write, you write 30,000 words in three days. Robert's doing the 30 year. And it is, I'll tell you what, it's, there was one point when I was under my desk, hugging my knees to my chest and crying. Cause it's like, why am I doing this? What is the point of this? So do it. But so doing a novel a week for that many weeks in a row, how how long is she going to go? The whole year. Oh my God.
00:39:26
Speaker
So she's lined up contracts for half these books already, right? These are books she's contracted for. um Now the reason- Okay, wait, wait. We got to get back to your book. that's Yeah, sorry. Yeah, this was a good- Okay, my book. So I'm still kind of waiting around to see if maybe she can become available and I can get her to edit my book because that's a lot easier than me doing it on my own.
00:39:53
Speaker
But I do from time to time. I have been tampering with it a bit as I go. But I have to cut it by 60,000 words, which means not just you know cutting out a few that's. It means taking out characters, taking out subplots, taking out the talky bits, the elevator scene's gotta go. So I'm trying to do that. My wife arranged for me to have a little writer's retreat on my own, where she put me out in the hotel for a few days to actually work on this with no distractions.
00:40:25
Speaker
And I was surprised to see I actually have done most of it already. There are a few loose ends I have to have to replace this scene. That means some other scene has to come in and you know, I have to smooth out some wrinkles, but I can.
00:40:39
Speaker
basically do that if I have to on my own. So I am making progress. But in the meantime, like I said, it's easier doing 100 short stories and getting those published than finishing the book. But I do want to finish the book before I die and we are getting up there. So um yeah, it is my my hope to make some progress and that the lesson we learned from having john skulls in the podcast was the importance of deadlines. Yeah. you you just have a second headline Give yourself a deadline. I just got to jump in here for a second because I i was so amused by the fact that you were used the word tampering when you're describing your process of working on the book. I've been tampering my book.
00:41:24
Speaker
No, because like, I'll tell you, I set out with a particular idea for this book, which was to be a satire of the standard American science fiction novel. And specifically, a Canadian author who wrote for analog magazine. And so I did the opposite of everything that he did.
00:41:44
Speaker
and the trouble of course is he followed the formula that works and so my deliberately sabotaging that formula those are the thing the beta readers I don't understand so you know typical American SF they land on the planet ah they recognize a problem and they solve it right my guys keep getting it wrong. like he The whole point of my hero was he would come up with a theory, it would be the wrong theory, and he would discover it was wrong, but his next theory would be wrong too, right? so
00:42:18
Speaker
What my readers were kind of telling me is that that gets boring pretty fast, right? that's all pretty fast And actually making him less of an idiot. Now he's still going to be kind of an idiot because he's me, but hopefully I also build up his credibility throughout this. And some of the other themes have had to been brought more to the front and to his being a complete guessing wrong all the time that had to go a bit into the background.
00:42:45
Speaker
Well, I enjoyed the version that I read, so you just need to finish the damn thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's good enough when you saw it. It's just good enough is never good enough, right? Perfect is the enemy of the good.
Cultural Appropriation in Writing
00:42:58
Speaker
if You took the words right out of my mouth, Mark. Yeah. Okay. Now let's get to your your creative pick. So we had a very intriguing creative pick for us today. Tell us about it. Uh, yellow face, but you have to pick up the right one. Let me just, I tear with names now. Um, R F Quang K U A N G. There's another yellow face by somebody else is completely different. So you want to make sure you get the right yellow face.
00:43:24
Speaker
Right. And not Yellow Fang, because there's a... book god not yeah Yellow Fang's also wrong. And you also need to get the audiobook, not the print book, because the audiobook has the best person reading it that they could possibly have found. That actress got every nuance in that book. And so by doing basically a one-woman show of this book,
00:43:54
Speaker
has underlined for the readers all the subtleties that otherwise, I'm so afraid a lot of readers will read right past stuff and not get, but just the way she inflects, you'd have to be more stupid not to pick up on what's happening. And and she's completely convincing. now The point of view character ah is one of the best examples of an unreliable narrator I've ever come across and it's one of the few examples where it's maintained through the whole book. She's a horrible person but the actress does such a good job of showing you that person's point of view
00:44:33
Speaker
did you know And again, that's the writer as well, of course, but you sympathize entirely. you know Even though she's making these terrible, terrible choices, there's a kind of inevitability to it. You say, well, of course you'd have to do that. right and No, you didn't have to do any of that, right? And it it it keeps getting worse and worse. So- And so this actress is, her name is Helen Lazer, by the way. Yes, thank you. I'm not good with names anymore. But yeah, and she, i' I'll read any, I'll pick up any audio books she does, because it is a nuanced, brilliant performance of a brilliant book. So I think, had I been reading it, there are pieces that are wincingly funny.
00:45:19
Speaker
But I think they might have been overwhelming if I'd been reading. I might have closed the book and put it back on the shelf because it's just too painful, even though you're laughing. It's just, it's just scaring you too much. So she manages to get you through those bits because she's still talking. And you know, you're already on to the next thing.
00:45:40
Speaker
And um there's so many scenes that are brilliant in the book that that she just brings to life that I think I worry that I would have missed or that other readers will miss if it was not listening to this brilliant, absolutely brilliant performance. Now, what what is the book about? Like give us the well ah elevator picture. Elevator pitch, not very successful, sort of semi-successful author gets her hands on the next big bestseller.
00:46:11
Speaker
I won't spoil it by saying how that happens. And then claims it as your own book, right? And so the rest of the book is about her plagiarism, right? and gentleman bronco's situation um and And the other part of that is its cultural representation and cultural appropriation.
00:46:31
Speaker
because the book that she steals is by a Chinese author. So she starts to pass herself off as Chinese, though she never says that, right? And she also like it is shepherding this incomplete manuscript through to publication.
00:46:52
Speaker
and and Like they're a brilliant scene where she talks to her editor and the editor says, oh can you can you up this character a bit? Because I think readers would like that character. And so this white savior character becomes the focus of the book instead of the authentic voice only. So there's all these, the whole conversation of the book is about cultural appropriation and plagiarism, except it's not about those things. because ah Every time you get through a chapter and you think, well, the author has completely nailed the issue of cultural appropriation, the next chapter will introduce a character who has a completely different take on that issue, and shoots down all those arguments, and you're all, wait, there's more nuance to this than I, and then, you know, the next chapter after that, there'll be a third character. So the only consistent thing in the book is that everybody is awful.
00:47:48
Speaker
As sometimes happens in a satire, yeah everyone's terrible. They're just terrible people. So the author skewers the plagiarist, right? and and At the same time, it's a sympathetic character. You see how wrong the rationalization for plagiarism, how wrong the cultural appropriation is, and you know and what what that really means, and how it works, and how subtle and evil it really is. So that's one thing. But they also skewer agents.
00:48:21
Speaker
right? They also secure publishers and editors and fans and social media. like So she really just goes to run the gamut of the whole publishing. So I'm on something called Canada Rights on Facebook, which is the CBC writers blog kind of thing. And you know, every week we get somebody, well, I've just finished my novel. Now what? Well, go read this book and you'll find out. Now what?
00:48:47
Speaker
And it might be a bit discouraging, but it'll give you a better idea how things actually work than any other book I've read. But it's all awful. Like, so, well, we have this publisher, so here's how they're going to screw you over. Here's this people come to option the movie for you. Well, here's how they're screwing you over.
00:49:07
Speaker
And it's all completely realistic. It certainly reflects my experiences over the last 40 years. It ref reflects, you know, I know hundreds and hundreds of writers. They've all told me their personal anecdotes and all of them are. There isn't a story that doesn't show up in this book. And, you know, I even felt some of the book came a little close to home. You know, she's stolen this manuscript.
00:49:33
Speaker
Here I am trying to finish Dave Duncan manuscripts. like so so I mean, I came by the legitimate way. Different situation. He left it to you legally. That's a wholly different situation. right yeah His mistake was picking somebody almost as old as him. He should have got a young guy. But anyway.
00:49:50
Speaker
well yeah i mean you can bequeath it to joe if that's required and so so I've written stories that have indigenous characters in it, right? So I've done a little. Do I have the right? I don't have an authentic right to use those voices. So that, you know, am I portraying them in a.
00:50:11
Speaker
fair way is that even something I should try or you know but the flip side of that is should our my stories never have any indigenous characters so they erased you know you you can't win on that one and then I had a a story that had a trans character right so I barely met anybody who's trans, so I shouldn't be writing that except I really needed that for the story to work. So, you know, how I deal with that is having it go through sensitivity readers to make sure, you know, and and one sensitivity to reader did flag one line in one of my stories and say, yeah don't go there.
00:50:49
Speaker
Thank you, right? Their job is to flag things that could get me in trouble or make me look like an asshole. It's not about censorship, but it's about helping me. So I had to throw away a line for a laugh and she said, you know, that could be triggering to people. You should take it out. I took it out. Yeah, I don't want to trigger people. You know, even if it's only a small percentage, why would I do that? Right. So they're there to help us. How funny was it?
00:51:18
Speaker
Apparently not that funny. I was the humorist. Sorry. I'm just being an asshole. but But that's it. I'd rather sacrifice one throwaway line than cost somebody to to question their life. right So I hear so many people say, oh, those damn sensitivity readers are trying to keep me from writing my story. No, they're not. They're trying to make it a better story. like Yeah, because you don't have to make fun of people to get a laugh. You don't have to do that. No. And there's a difference between punching up and punching down. but Like in my story with my indigenous characters, I also have a Canadian, I have an American. The American comes off the worst, the Canadian the second, the indigenous teachers ah characters do quite well, right?
00:52:01
Speaker
so i I think it's your intent and it's you know I went to some trouble to make sure I wasn't putting garbage in their mouths. It had some basis and leaves a little superficial research. and ah you know I didn't say anything I think anybody would object to and the sensitivity of a reader was fine. but That's helpful. That's not censorship. And it bugs me when I hear old white guys, well, can't get published anymore because I'm white. Well, they won't let me have any characters here because I don't know. No, like my my novel has a gay character in it. It turns out to be the spy because he was my best friend in the 70s when I started the damn book, right?
00:52:41
Speaker
ah And he's also in like four other people's, we knew a lot of writers, he's in four other people's book as the spy, because whatever we think of spy, we think of him, right? Because of course he lived a secret life, because it was a while before he came out as another. Oh, that's how you do it, right?
00:52:58
Speaker
so i I, you know, in 1970, it was a brave and apparently thing to do to include a major gay character in ah in in the book, right? No, nobody thinks about it. But I don't want to not have that character because I'm not gay. On the other hand, I can portray him the way he actually was because I know that guy. does Does that make sense? Which is authentic. Absolutely. Which is different than me watching something on TV and say, well, that's what gays look like. It's it's like the guys from
00:53:29
Speaker
Well, and surely we can't be restricted to just writing books about, you know, Joe Mahoney. yeah and All the characters are Joe Mahoney. You'd be surprised how many books come across my desk by old white guys that are about old white guy authors, right? At some point at all.
00:53:45
Speaker
God save us. you yeah can A lot of can lit is a guy in his 40s going through midlife crisis looking out at the lake, right? No. Go away. Okay, we are approaching our agreed upon time limit for this episode. So anything further you want to say about Yellow Face? I do. I mean, you've already completely sold it to me. yeah Yeah, me too. It was actually already on my list, to be honest. it was something else If you are a writer or you want to be a writer, you have to read this book. Because any aspect of the business that you haven't been involved in, it's shown in this book. So if you haven't taught writing yet, and we're thinking, oh, maybe I should go teach writing. Reading as the hero in this book goes to teach writing. It's one of the funniest but also most painful things I've ever read, right?
00:54:36
Speaker
So there's no aspect of the field. And it it also reads like a mystery novel. Like you keep thinking, oh, what could happen next? Is she gonna be found out? And it keeps getting worse. Like she keeps trying to plug the holes and it keeps getting worse and worse and worse. And then the penultimate scene is one you'd never guess, right? And it's awful. You think, oh my God, she learned absolutely nothing. But then at the end end,
00:55:04
Speaker
The other people are even worse. sluckest i so it's It's a brilliant adventure novel. It's a page-turner. What's going to happen next? But in terms of the writing life, I've never seen it so thoroughly covered and so thoroughly critiqued.
00:55:26
Speaker
but that I can't wait to hear this. Yeah, but yeah it's it's now much higher on my list. You did a good job, Robert. You sold me. Mark, any any any other final thoughts? Oh, I just want to have, I just quickly, I want to shout out to Olga, who is my first publisher and my first editor. I learned so much from her and this conversation made me doubly, triply thankful for her. Even though she made me alright once.
00:55:53
Speaker
Made you what? She made me cry. I had a few little manly tears running down my face. ah Well, I said, that's that another podcast. Okay. Something for me to aspire to as I edit it. Robert. runte Thank you very much for being on our podcast. Recreative. it's up pleasure Thank
00:56:35
Speaker
You've been listening to Recreative, a podcast about creativity and the works that inspire it. Recreative is produced by Mark Rainer and Joe Mahoney for Donovan Street Press, Inc., in association with Monkey Joy Press. Technical production of music by Joe Mahoney, web design by Mark Rainer. You can support this podcast by checking out our guest work, listening to their music, purchasing their books, watching their shows, and so on. You can find out more about each guest in all of our past episodes by visiting recreative.ca. That's re-creative.ca. You can contact us by emailing joe mohoney at donovanstreetpress dot.com. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening.