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Aaron Young: Cocodona 250 & The Power of Showing Up When It’s Hard
250 Plays1 day ago
On this Trail Running Podcast, James sits down with Aaron Young to unpack a remarkable personal transformation - from heavy drinking and mental health struggles to one of Australia’s best backyard ultra runners and 200-mile-plus competitors.
We delve into his Cocodona 250 effort, balancing 3:00 a.m. training with a carpentry apprenticeship, and why going the distance is about more than just distance - it's about discipline, growth, and staying true to your word.
***Don’t forget, use code PPP at Bix’s website for 20% off Bix products, exclusive to PPP listeners!***
Thanks for tuning in to Peak Pursuits! Connect with us on Instagram @peakpursuits.pod to share your thoughts, questions, and trail stories. Until next time, keep hitting the trails and chasing those peak pursuits!
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Peak Pursuits Podcast. My name is James Sieber and today we welcome Aaron Young to chat.
Achievements in Ultra-Distance Races
00:00:22
Speaker
Aaron is known originally for his Backyard Ultra performances, moving then into the 200 milers over here, winning three of them in 2024, and has just gone across to the States and raced a 300 miler.
00:00:35
Speaker
Four weeks later, Cocodona 250. two fifty This conversation with Aaron is really interesting and it's one that really exposes why we might pursue these ultra endurance activities. He's very open about his challenges with mental health after an injury, ending his AFL career and then moving through and then how this transitioned into riding, going further, getting curious about running.
00:01:00
Speaker
And now having completed 75 yards in a backyard ultra, and like I said, multiple 200 plus milers. We also talk about his next chapter in the long trail FKT world and what else is still piquing his curiosity.
00:01:14
Speaker
With that, I reckon it's time to get to the podcast with Aaron Young.
Career and Personal Challenges
00:01:18
Speaker
Aaron, welcome to the podcast. How are you going today? i' Going really well. Thanks for having me on, James. I'm excited to so to get you on. I kind of feel a little bit ashamed to say that you hadn't crossed my radar that much until Coca-Dona this year. And then going back through your results and seeing all the backyard stuff, i was like, I really should have known this name before. But Glad we have got to here. I'm really intrigued to learn more about your past and your current events you've been doing. But before we get too much into the current, since you will most likely be a new name or a newer name to everyone listening, can you just give us a bit of a background to yourself, building us up to when running came into your life?
00:01:55
Speaker
Okay, so I started running around about 2021. Until then, I'd... So throughout my life, I, from a career perspective, I've done a whole lot of different things.
00:02:09
Speaker
I worked as an architect, a school teacher. I've kind of had a lot of different, like... little jobs in there. ah I had my own little social enterprise.
00:02:20
Speaker
I had always played um so AFL throughout my ah younger years and then in 2016 I tore my ACL in my left knee and that kind of started a bit of a downhill spiral.
00:02:37
Speaker
ah the time I was studying full-time and working full-time and I stopped making time for exercise, which is one of the things that really kind of was the glue that that particularly with my mental health that held everything together.
00:02:51
Speaker
So in that period, I was drinking a lot more than I had in the past, like five or six nights a week. I was eating poorly. I think I put on like 25 kilos in the space of like nine months or something.
00:03:03
Speaker
So that was a time where life wasn't going so good for me. And then probably around the beginning of 2018, late 2017, early 18, I kind of got to a point where I was, I'd probably hit the lowest point that I that i ever got to And that was a point where I decided enough was enough and started to get back into fitness through the gym, first of all, and then ah bit of cycling. And then that was when the running started.
00:03:35
Speaker
Okay, interesting. So 2016, how old were you being then? i would have been like 29 or something like that.
Professional Journey and Teaching
00:03:43
Speaker
So late, late twenty s I have to always think about my current age now. Often I just have to like work out what year we're in and count back to 1987 when I was born. I'll be like, hopefully my math is right. I think I'm 38 at the moment. Yeah, I'm in the same boat now as well. I feel like it's gone past that point.
00:04:01
Speaker
um Okay, there's quite a few interesting things you said in there. First one, obviously, so AFL, you were playing that consistently into your late 20s by sounds of it. Yeah, pretty much. ah ah Look, when I was younger, I was – sure Like I was trying to be competitive. I tried to get into ah like West Perth, like the waffle sides over here.
00:04:22
Speaker
The main problem I had in terms of breaking into the c Colts team, et cetera, was just that I wasn't that quick. So often in my teams when I was younger, I was often a vice captain or a captain in in leadership kind of roles, but never the you know, the quickest or the most talented player on the team was just someone who kind of always was rocked up to training and was always giving their best. And ah that was kind of something that I think probably got installed in me pretty early, yeah like pretty early on, particularly for my dad. Like whenever he was, ah you know, at training, he'd often be one of the coaches or part of the the team coaching. And so everything he did when he was around when I was younger was like,
00:05:11
Speaker
like full intensity and I guess I learned that kind of from him and sorry I actually just forgot what the question was no they you've i all the question was was just AFL was your main thing and into your late late 20s but it's it's it's it's interesting like at the hearing you talk about leading by example and that work ethic which is often traits that the coaches look for in in that captain it's obviously translated into what you do now in the longer stuff because you can't just you you can't not want to work hard and do the stuff yeah and i would say probably the reason why i was not as strong as i should be and probably why i hurt my knees that
00:05:55
Speaker
as i got into my mid to late 20s and i was playing it was probably more of a social thing so it was probably more about going down after training on thursday nights and spending time at the club on saturday nights and there was a lot of like drinking was a big part of the culture around football like it haven't been around football clubs in the like last few years but since It was always a big part of the culture when I was playing, so I was probably a little overweight even before I tore my ACL in my knee, and so that was probably a big part of why I kept going back to footies because I liked that part of it.
00:06:36
Speaker
I spoke to Millie Young just last week and her story has some similarities about that sort of lifestyle change in your 20s that is potentially not the most conducive to our healthiest, happiest self. And around sort of COVID time, finding that and that new direction, the path, is just yeah hearing you talk about that really brought that one back up, which I'm sure a lot of people can couldn't really share.
00:07:00
Speaker
From a professional side, said to architecture, teacher, studying, you're carpenter now. When you finished school, was it you went straight straight to uni or to college to do architecture?
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, when I went in and studied architecture. i i worked for maybe four years as an architect and over that. And then I decided to go and travel. And while was traveling, I kind of, i lived in the UK for a little bit and around London and and started to kind of look at different things and So i met a few people who were running programs in schools. they were They were teaching, like they were using acting training to help, ah like they were using it actually not just in schools but in like prisons in Russia to to help with like people ah to like I guess
Mental Health and Fitness Journey
00:07:54
Speaker
deconstruct their character, their own personal character and then kind of like actually
00:08:01
Speaker
help them form, I guess, healthier habits and and kind of stop some of the destructive patterns that they have their kind of everyday life.
00:08:11
Speaker
And so when I saw the work they were doing, I started to think, you know, that would be really great in Australia. so I tried to bring it back here, but I didn't have a lot of financial backing at the time. So I kind of found it really difficult because, know,
00:08:29
Speaker
You know, I needed the expertise that was over in the UK and so we had a lot of people that were interested in the programs that we wanted to run but I just couldn't quite piece it all together. And out of, though, trying to engage with schools and and also had some...
00:08:46
Speaker
I was working with a couple of hip hop artists that were using like freestyle rap and poetry to try and engage young people with literature. And so out of being around schools, that was kind of what led me to want to have a go at being a high school teacher. So it's kind of like organically shifted.
00:09:05
Speaker
And, you know, when I was, the last couple of years I was teaching, I was doing a lot of industry industry engagement programs. And so, As a result of doing some things that were related to the building industry, kind of felt compelled to go back into the building industry. And, and you know, so hence I'm doing a ah carpentry apprenticeship and I'm two and a half years into that at the moment. So I've got about another 18 months left and of my apprenticeship.
00:09:35
Speaker
That's a really interesting story. What resonated with you initially with that sort of social community engagement piece with the rehabilitation for prisoners? I guess for me, the biggest thing with a lot of the kind of social ah initiatives that I've done, the biggest thing that's is probably just looking at problems that I see there and wanting to see if there was a way that, you know, and we could actually just tackle those kind of things.
00:10:07
Speaker
And for me, like, I don't know exactly what drew me to them, but when I saw, yeah know, there's there's ah there's a problem that I thought was here in Australia and I could see people doing really great work over there, I kind of started to look at,
00:10:24
Speaker
well, is this something that might be, that I might be able to actually have some kind of positive impact? And at the time I was doing a ah number of different personal development courses and a lot of that was looking at, you know, who do you want to be in the world and,
00:10:40
Speaker
So that was where I was kind of looking at, well, do I want to be someone who goes to work and at the end of the day feels like they've made a big contribution to other people in society or so i am I purely motivated by going to work to make money so that I can, you have things exactly the way I want them? Yeah. and a lot of the time...
00:11:03
Speaker
when I've looked at those kind of things that I've, I always get drawn into what is it that I can do to have a larger impact, not just on my life, but on other people in the community in general. I really love that.
00:11:18
Speaker
That's a very refreshing perspective to listen to. Thank you for sharing. It's something that I feel like we don't necessarily always expect people to take the path that's not not always, yeah not the financially driven direction, but the one that serves the people around us more, which I could be wrong, like the people listening to this, I find people in trails more generally are that sort of person.
00:11:45
Speaker
um But it's just, it's nice to nice to hear that journey coming from yourself and to actually take the initiatives to not just see something that you resonated with, but to see if you could make it happen. That's yeah, that that in itself is ah is a huge achievement.
00:11:58
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. And look, I definitely agree that people in the trail running community are pretty generous with their time. And like, for example, going over to the US, I had like a couple of different people help me throughout Cocodona, like come and spend, you know, come and pace for like 70 miles whatever.
00:12:19
Speaker
come and crew for like a extended periods and when i went over to the us i didn't know any of those people and so i was pretty blown away by the fact that people were willing to in the middle of their work week, they were willing to, you know, i finish work on at lunchtime on Monday and then come and meet me and crew from like midnight on Monday night through to Wednesday morning. And then they went back to work on Wednesday afternoon. And that is like wow yeah but and and it didn't seem like too much effort. They just were willing to,
00:12:55
Speaker
do whatever they could to help. So that was that was pretty special. that That's incredible. That's very, very cool. i Especially with everything going on over there at the moment. It's nice to hear that that that happened.
00:13:08
Speaker
The other thing you mentioned when you were talking then was obviously the mental health challenge that becoming injured... um My guess that not so much to the injury itself, but what it also took away. Like you lose all that social side, that community element, sport, like you said. Having had a similar journey in that respect, i know what that can do to us. And so from your side,
00:13:36
Speaker
ah How did you manage those emotions? so It sounds like a couple of years that it went on for in terms of getting on the other side of it. Well, initially, you got to a point where...
00:13:49
Speaker
I was having trouble getting out of bed, so i ended up after like a couple of weeks of, you know, not getting, not being able to get out of bed in the morning, so it became ah ah like a real trouble just to get to work in the first place. i ended up taking...
00:14:08
Speaker
Seeing a psychologist, I took a whole week off work ah just didn't leading into a school holiday. So I had like three weeks off just to try reset. I was also taking some medication. I can't even remember what it what it was called, but I ended up taking medication for depression for about 18 months, and which helped just to so I didn't have like those issues with getting out of bed.
00:14:34
Speaker
but it also meant that i I wasn't experiencing the lows, but I never felt happy at all. So it was kind of like this, just this in-between kind of like purgatory kind of state.
00:14:48
Speaker
And then ah guess i after I'd seen ah psychologist, for a while it was like maybe 10 sessions or something and just talking about some of the stuff that i was she she just said like you've just spoken about this issue and that issue pretty much ongoingly so i'd say they're the two things in your life that are causing a lot of the problems so ah think you need to just work out what you want to do about One of them was the fact i was working at a, like a ah kind of a tough school to work out. And the other one was, I was in a relationship that wasn't working very well.
00:15:27
Speaker
And so then I just then went about trying to, work out how I was going to make those two things work for me. And it was kind of at that point that I started taking some positive, like some proactive steps to try and either make that relationship what what was going to work for for both of us. or And it ended up that after like couple of months of that, we ended up ending the relationship. But
00:15:59
Speaker
ah which which did help a lot for me personally. And then at work, I just... had to, know, work out what are the, what were the classes that I was having the most trouble with. And I worked out how to kind of manage my, my but own wellbeing and manage my workload. And, and um i also, cause I was studying full time at the same time. So ah dropped a couple of units and pushed them back to the following year, just to take a little bit of workload off myself for, for six months. And,
00:16:33
Speaker
you just Just being proactive in my life really changed that. And it was about that time that then I was like, well, I've ah been doing all of this other stuff.
00:16:43
Speaker
I need to... It was probably as I was starting that kind of process with the with work and the relationship that I also realized that I had to stop the drinking and I had to start getting back onto the fitness train and actually like going back to what ah that used to be the release that I had was going to footy. But given that I was only like four or five months post knee surgery,
00:17:09
Speaker
that wasn't something i could really do but uh the my physio gave me clearance to kind of start in the doing some modified stuff and within a couple of weeks of just doing some stuff in my like in the home i have then started doing it at 45 and did like a weight loss challenge and that was that kind of for me because it had been a long time since i'd done anything competitive having a challenge and and competing and trying to like first other people, even though it was like weight loss and maybe that, you know, that attitude towards weight loss isn't the most healthy, but I, there was three grand on the line and oh wow I was like, I'm winning that.
00:17:51
Speaker
And so I lost like 18 and a half kilos in like eight weeks. So I kind of got back to nearly where I was at. And it's funny, the the guy that one of John has become pretty much my best mate now, one of my best mates, and he was also in doing that weight loss challenge. And we didn't, I guess, at the time we didn't, like we weren't going at the same sessions, but out of that whole thing, ah he ah knew he was cycling. And so when I started riding my bike, I...
00:18:23
Speaker
um I just messaged him and I'm like, I know you ride, you cycle a bit, like, do you want to go for a ride? And that was kind of the start of us becoming mates. It's incredible.
00:18:34
Speaker
Once you're on the other side of it and you're looking back, it's easy, or hopefully it's easy to see those silver linings. Like you go through this really dark stage of your life, it's really challenging, but when you're out of it, you see all the growth and the progress, the relationships that you build for it, yeah the better way strikes your life.
00:18:49
Speaker
um When you said you were studying at that time, Were you studying to be a teacher still or is it something else? Yes.
Teaching Impact and Growth
00:18:57
Speaker
So I did a program called Teach for Australia. So you essentially – um So their kind of ethos is that because teachers have such a big impact on the outcomes for students, so they take high achievers out of other professions and try and get them into the the teaching profession. So you're studying full-time, you're Masters of Education.
00:19:24
Speaker
at the same time that you're also teaching at like 0.8 of a normal teacher's load so it's quite an intense two years doing that whole program so taught my acl like maybe like less than six months into it so it was kind of like while i was doing that program that all of this was kind of going on so i was kind of dealing with that at the same time that all all of my kind of mental health was not going so well And you said as well you were in a challenging school.
00:19:57
Speaker
Was that just your class or the the school as a whole was? So so that's that's I guess that's another part of what Teach for Australia does is like they they look at schools in regional or remote areas or areas like low socioeconomic areas that um don't necessarily always get the – I mean – They don't necessarily always um have the best outcomes for students. So their ethos is to try and match the the teachers that they're bringing into the education system with students and schools in those kind of low socioeconomic remote areas. and And yeah, so that's kind of what the goal of the organisation is, is to try and improve outcomes in in those schools and in those areas.
00:20:48
Speaker
I can't imagine that if you were going through a period of life where you're struggling with your mental health and you're working in a school like that, which ah i worked in a school like that for for a year and it changed my perspective on what people become quite massively because you see where they came from.
00:21:04
Speaker
But it's also not an environment that's conducive to an easy day. Do you feel like the school sort of exasperated any of the issues? I think it did. But then teaching at a school like that he where not and like ah not all the students are engaged, when you you do come across a lot of students as well, that you get to help them in know in quite a big way, not just like with their their education, their learning, but also...
00:21:35
Speaker
on more of a social or emotional level and kind of help them with their development as becoming into an adult. So there's a lot of moments in teaching at school that were quite frustrating, but there's also a lot of moments where you go,
00:21:54
Speaker
yeah I think I've had a pretty big impact on that young person's life. So that in that respect, it's also quite rewarding. Yeah, yeah definitely.
00:22:05
Speaker
And how long did you stay being a teacher for? i think it was about seven years, six or seven years. Oh, wow. Okay. So I guess you only a recent change to carpentry.
00:22:16
Speaker
yeah so it's Yeah, I think it might have been six. but We'll just go. It's it somewhere in that ballpark. That's fine. No, okay. that I feel like going through, especially the education element whilst you're yeah going through that mental health journey to then stick in the so stick around for that long, but i I feel like it would have been easy to have gone, ah associate the school or being a teacher with that that version of you and therefore need to move on. Did that cross your mind at all?
00:22:43
Speaker
No, because i ah when I was teaching the school, I had a lot of good, you know, there were quite a lot of teachers that like the did offer help and support and mentorship. And so I was lucky to have people around me that also I could see what like what kind of impact that they were having in kind of I guess the the next tier ah up of like, court that you know, there were coordinators or head of departments, et cetera.
00:23:16
Speaker
And so when i was in that school, i could see the impact that i was having, but also – you know, what I might be able to achieve if I did stay there. And, know, and I had, like, there were there are lots of people at the school that, you know, they're just great people. And so it was kind of like you're a part of ah team working together. So it was good from that respect to to work with a good group of people. So...
00:23:46
Speaker
And looking back at the you from that period when when you tore your ACL, drinking too much, working your mental health, how do you how do you view that version of you now?
00:24:02
Speaker
it kind of changes a little bit through – Because i guess one of the things, particularly when I get into my like mode of training that I do now preparing for ultras is that there's an element of that where you just have to, doesn't it doesn't really matter how you feel. you If you say you've got a training, if I say I've got a training session,
00:24:26
Speaker
the in the morning I got to do intervals, I get up and I do it. And so and some so some points I kind of view that past person myself as a little bit pathetic. But then there's other times when I realize that actually I'm kind of grateful to myself in the past a little bit because if I hadn't have actually gone through that and then taken some positive steps towards becoming ah stronger like person physically and mentally, i probably wouldn't be doing the stuff that I'm doing today. So there's kind of that...
00:25:06
Speaker
so I don't think without that low point, I would have made such big changes in my life and I definitely wouldn't be doing the things that I'm doing at the moment and I wouldn't have all the the people in my life that i have in my life right at this point. So I'm quite grateful that I had that experience and that that person that I was back then actually took the time to make those changes and take the steps forward. Yeah. It's nice to nice to hear you say that i was curious because I was listening, can't remember listening or watching, ah but you said in the part in the past about not wanting to become that weak version of yourself again. And I wanted to see if that was still the way that you viewed past just past you or if it has evolved a bit. And it sounds like it has evolved a bit.
00:25:51
Speaker
um the I guess all of that sets the scene because you your transition into sport post-injury through cycling and into running, it's not the traditional started a park run, do your 10k, spend a bit of time and maybe work towards a marathon, you kind of, you went long
Transition to Ultra Running
00:26:11
Speaker
quite quickly. What was the attraction to that ultra distance multi-day stuff?
00:26:16
Speaker
I think because I started with cycling, it was, it it wasn't so hard to build up quite quickly because it's quite forgiving on your body. You can just, if you're, if you're not going out there and trying to crush yourself and ride really fast, I just kind of started with there was a like so i came back from i was traveling during covid i came back i we were only allowed out to exercise for like a day an hour a day or something like that so it was supposed to be so i would go out and ride like started off as like it was 18 kilometers around that lake so then i'd the first time first day i went did 18 and then i was like that wasn't too bad and the next day i went did two laps and then
00:27:03
Speaker
It just kind of ah grew from there quite quickly. So every second or third day would go and ride along the – so – mum lives in up in ah northern – the northern areas of Perth in Joonelup. So i just then ride to the coast and then I'd ride down and then – it would maybe be a 50k ride and the next time i'd try and make it 60 and within like six weeks i think i'd done my first 100 kilometer ride and doing that kind of stuff and within six months i was going out riding 600ks in a weekend oh and i just kind of found that i really just enjoyed that i was
00:27:45
Speaker
I didn't necessarily need to be in a group or have company, but just going out there and just seeing how far I could go was really it was challenging because I had no idea what I was doing relation to coaching.
00:28:02
Speaker
nutrition or hydration you know i i think the second time i i second or third like times where i've ridden like 100 k's i think i took like one muesli bar or something like that for a three and a half hour ride and by the end of it i was like why do i have no energy in my legs at this point yeah so that was something that i've learned a lot about in the past four or five years since since that and you know i can see all the things that i did wrong but i just went out there and just had a go and yeah uh it just it just the eventually turned into doing stuff that i wouldn't have even thought to do yeah when i first started riding my bike i was just going out to try and get out of the house um
00:28:50
Speaker
because everyone was in lockdown and because I'd come back from traveling, i couldn't get work at the time. So and just kind of had to wait until things open up so I could then go and start applying for jobs and and get back into ah normal everyday life.
00:29:06
Speaker
And during this, how was your knee? but Did the ACL still give you any trouble? ah Look, no, it really hasn't given me too much trouble. It does get it, when I'm doing cycling, when I'm cycling long distances or when I'm running long distances, there's a little bit of extra swelling in it.
00:29:22
Speaker
So it does get a little more sore than the than my right knee. But overall, I really haven't had any issues with it throughout this whole process. That's great.
00:29:33
Speaker
We were talking before about the difference between being drawn towards adventure or being drawn towards competition. And obviously there can be a lot of overlap within those two things, but I feel like to a degree, maybe potentially we're we're drawn towards one more strongly than then the other. And it sounds like for yourself, it was just that that curiosity of how far can you go, what will happen, and where can I go in that process? Does that sound ah fair reflection?
00:29:59
Speaker
Yeah, and I use adventure a lot. I know I went in a lot of my posts on Instagram and that kind of stuff. And adventure is probably the thing that when I think about what an adventure is, i think about – like someone who's just going into the unknown and often when you go into the unknown, the the journey is not always smooth and you can often have these big challenges that come up that you don't know about when you start on whatever journey you're going on.
00:30:31
Speaker
And so there's this process of constantly having to overcome these kind of challenges. And i think I'm really drawn to that aspect of ultra endurance is that,
00:30:43
Speaker
as the distances have got longer and longer, all of these factors come into it, like nutrition, sleep, like mental and physical preparation.
00:30:54
Speaker
And it always kind of changes as you do these different types of events and things do get a bit longer. Yeah. Interesting. It's so that, that kind of,
00:31:09
Speaker
draw to it not just being about the running but having to work out everything that that kind of excites you yeah it does and the other thing that i would say really excites me i mean i mentioned my my mental health a bit but it's that process of having to continually kind of be disciplined and you know regardless of what like the challenges that you set, there's always these kind of like there's always this process of getting prepared for it, training for it, and it's trying to make sure that you give yourself the like you give a full effort while you're doing the preparation for an event. So because I almost feel like when you get to the race,
00:31:56
Speaker
your result is almost predetermined when you're at the start line and it's pretty much a an extension of what you've done for the last couple of months or six months or a couple of years as you've kind of prepared and led up to that thing.
00:32:10
Speaker
And it's all good to to say, yeah I'm going to do this amazing thing, but it's kind of all going to be become clear as to what you've been doing in the last 12 months and how you've been um working and and the kind of challenges that you've been having to overcome to get to where you are that that's all going to show up when you actually get to the start line and you start the race and so that's kind of that that process of i guess becoming a ah stronger or tougher or a faster runner it kind of shows up as a result of whatever you've done in the lead up to the moment that you're in
00:32:49
Speaker
I like that. It's almost like the start, we always talk about the start of the race actually being at kilometre X into it, but actually in a way it's two years ago when you started this or six months ago when you started planning for this specific event.
00:33:05
Speaker
it's ah it It does speak to something that I personally love about running is it's this test of delayed gratification. If you seek the quick and easy and early wins, it only holds yourself back for the future, but also you've got absolutely no idea about what that's going to look like. There's just ah a complete step into the unknown, which I find exciting because it keeps you you grow so much in that in that process.
00:33:29
Speaker
And that sounds like it would be a similar thing for yourself. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so moving kind of into your running history, which I find fascinating because it's definitely something that Having followed the sport, Backyard Ultra has announced 200 milers in particular. Cocodona has just captured the attention of specifically like they feels like the American ah audience, but it is coming across.
00:33:55
Speaker
The Backyard format, before you got into there, had you done much like who done any other running events up to that point?
Exploration of Ultra Racing Formats
00:34:04
Speaker
So my first, like 2021 was a year where I i did triathlon.
00:34:09
Speaker
So I'd started all of the cycling through that kind of 2020 COVID year and I got to maybe like September 2021 So i wanted to – my friend John was actually signed up to do the Ironman at the time. So I kind of – like it was like three weeks before the Ironman.
00:34:29
Speaker
So I went down to swimming with my coach my now coach, Pete, and I said, what do you reckon about me signing up for the Ironman in three weeks? And he just chuckled at me and said, no, Aaron. And then – ah no, I don't think you should do that and it's sold out so you can't. And he just like kind of laughed at me and then I was like, ah fair enough. What do you think about me doing it next year?
00:34:50
Speaker
So then I'd kind of been working up to that over the course of like 12 months. um And that was that was probably good because – You know, that first 12 months of running, because I was also cycling and swimming, i was probably only running two or three times a week. So my mileage wasn't super big straight away. Like i think even my biggest weeks in the lead up to the Ironman might have been like 50 or 60 kilometers throughout the whole week in the in the three sessions.
00:35:21
Speaker
And so think that paired with the the cycling and the swimming allowed me to to start to build a bit of a base but not leave myself with too much risk of becoming injured.
00:35:34
Speaker
So I guess that was my that was my, like, you know, when a lot of people start with their 5Ks or their park runs and that that was kind of what, that was my first year into running and I built up over the course of, I guess, 12 months.
00:35:49
Speaker
to so i to would you do any sessions uh running during that period yeah so i did like yeah i in the let's say the peak of my running before the ironman i'd probably do a long run that was about 30 k's i'd do an interval session and i'd probably do like a 10 K run or something off the bike. So when I did my long ride in on a, if I did my long ride on a Saturday morning, which might've been like 150 K's or something, I'd jump off the bike at the end of it and then go and run for, for, for 10 K's or something like that. Okay.
00:36:25
Speaker
But it built up quite slowly. Earlier on in the year, it might have been like an interval session that was like 45 minutes and then a 10 or 12 kilometre run and then maybe like ah another one that was like 5Ks or something like that.
00:36:39
Speaker
yeah And, you know, you slowly built up throughout the year. And you only did the one full Ironman? Yeah, only did the one full Ironman. I'd already done my first Backyard Ultra at that point.
00:36:51
Speaker
ah So I kind of knew straight away when I did the Ironman that it was probably not something I was going to want to do like 10 or 15 of them. um But as soon as I did a back out ultra, I was pretty intrigued by the format.
00:37:08
Speaker
So I went out and I, ah because it was like in my training block for ah the Ironman, ah ah ah agreed that I was just going to do the 10 yards and then stop. And so it went pretty smoothly ah for that first one. So I kind of wanted to then see how far I could push that.
00:37:26
Speaker
ah Before we get there, I did, again, think was doing a podcast where you said that you were contemplating doing a Decker Ironman. Is that still a ah thought? And for everyone listening, what is that?
00:37:39
Speaker
ah So, yes, that is a thought. The thing that has probably stopped me from – so what a Decker Ironman is, it's like an – an Ironman triathlon except times 10.
00:37:50
Speaker
So it's like a 38K swim and then ah an 1800-kilometre ride and then 422Ks is the run. And it is something that's still on the radar.
00:38:02
Speaker
the The thing that has probably put me off committing to one in the short term is just the swimming side of things. Like i Don't, um I love the running side of things, although, you know, sometimes training, it can be hard to want to get up at three o'clock in the morning and go for a for an interval session or something like that. But I do like the running training and I love getting on the bike when I can.
00:38:31
Speaker
I find the swimming so mind-numbingly boring. Maybe it's something that at some point I'll go, look, okay, I just got to get myself back into this. ah but But doing three swimming sessions and I imagine for that kind of distance they would start to build up in like in terms of volume. So let's say I was swimming 20Ks a week, like um that would be you know that would be a fairly hefty amount of time in the pool. And I don't know if I could...
00:39:02
Speaker
do that and fit that all my other training in, ah particularly working full time. And, you know, so it's one of those things that I think it will happen at some point, um but it's probably going a little bit down the list um because of all the races that I've Every time I go and do something, I speak to people and, you know, hearing about their experiences doing these different races, I'm like, oh, really? That sounds pretty good. And I'm kind of fit for trail running at the moment. So maybe I'll just keep doing the trail running for a little bit longer. Yeah, make the most of the the current shape.
00:39:36
Speaker
ah it's it's yeah It's definitely, it's a crazy format. And I don't think it's the same thing, but I remember reading Rich Roll's book like ages ago and his journey through, I think it was like five on five different islands. And he did, can't remember which one it was, but anyway.
00:39:52
Speaker
It just, that sounded like a lot. And then I heard you talk about deck ride and went, wow, that's big. and And just a lot of time to train because it's not just running and it's not just a normal Ironman.
00:40:04
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, when you when you look at the amount of mileage that some, like, endurance swimmers do, like, i don't know if you know who Ross Edgley is. No. um So he's in he's probably his biggest feat is he swum around Great Britain in a continuous stage swim. Oh, wow. So it took him like 156 days or something and he was like six hours on, six hours off for like the whole 156 days. I think he might have taken one day off just because of a storm. Wow. oh
00:40:35
Speaker
And i like you look at his his training and, it's the The sessions that I've seen and I've read a couple of his books as well, it's like upwards of 100 kilometres a week and in terms of training in the pool. So, you know, it's some pretty big mileage, like 20, 30 k's a day.
00:40:54
Speaker
And, the you know, so I guess that's that's what it would take. And it would also take probably like I think for me at least 18 months or two years to build up to being able to do that kind of thing with shoulders and strength and strength.
00:41:09
Speaker
uh all the potential problems that could go wrong with ligaments and shoulder joints and yeah so Yeah, so what what you're saying is if there's anyone out there that wants to sponsor a a two-year project where they pay you a full-time wage to train, hit you up.
00:41:24
Speaker
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'll do whatever. I'll do whatever for anyone if anyone wants to do that. That's that's that's live on a podcast. you You're trapped into it now. yeah ah Okay, so the Backyard Ultra format then, you've done your first one, did 10 yards.
00:41:42
Speaker
That's 10 hours. ten hours That kind of sounds like it hooked you. And now to the point where your best is 75, which is over three days and over 300 miles, which is incredibly impressive.
00:41:55
Speaker
um Before we kind of talk about the specifics of that, just in case people listening aren't familiar with it, can you just describe kind of the format and how that all works? So Backyard Ultra is race where each hour you have to complete a loop that's 6.71 kilometres, and then you have to be ready to go in the starting the main starting corral at the beginning of the next hour.
00:42:21
Speaker
There's not really many rules other than that. You just have to complete the course and you're not allowed to receive aid on the course. So anything that you take out on the lap with you is what you have to complete the loop within that hour time. like and And I guess the only other thing to add is that if you do the loop in 50 minutes, you get 10 minutes at the end of it as a bit of a break, which you can use to eat, sleep.
00:42:47
Speaker
go to the toilet, do any other things that you might need to do during that time. The draw for you for these sort of events, was it very much that balance of fitness and the logistics side of it?
00:43:00
Speaker
I think the draw for it was just to see how far I could go. That first one, aye because i'm not I'm not an overly fast runner. So doing these longer events, ah it's but's it just the way things have kind of gone because I realized I'm relatively good at them, predominantly just out of purely being stubborn and just persistent.
Building Discipline and Mental Toughness
00:43:31
Speaker
And so ah by the time I got to my third one, so i I think I did 28 loops at my second one and then my third one was like 53, I think.
00:43:43
Speaker
So over 200 miles and ah at that point it was just it was just cool to, for me, it was like nice see something that I was good at but it was also working on some of the things that I thought were missing from me as a person when I was having all those issues with my mental health.
00:44:09
Speaker
Okay. Can you expand on on that? Well, ah look, when i was when I was like drinking and and things weren't going that well for me, some of the the discipline was something that was really missing and often consistency was missing in like having control of like willpower.
00:44:28
Speaker
So i ah don't know if it's like this for other people who have been drinking like heavily on a regular basis, but – I would wake up the next day and go like, why did I do that?
00:44:42
Speaker
that was That was stupid. And then, you know, by six o'clock that night after I'd finished work and I didn't have any exercise to do, I'd be like having another beer again and one beer would turn into six.
00:44:55
Speaker
And so something that I liked seeing in myself was when I did have thoughts about, not completing a lap when I didn't feel that great, I was still able to exercise some level of willpower and go out and push myself and have another go.
00:45:17
Speaker
And so that was something that I thought was missing before in my life and it' was something that then after doing these kind of races that I was like quite drawn to, the fact that I was having to exercise this muscle and then leading on from that,
00:45:34
Speaker
It was like a podcast that I saw with David Goggins and Andrew Huberman, and they were talking about the anterior mid-cingulate cortex. and And Andrew Huberman was explaining that this is the part of the brain that controls willpower, and the way to improve willpower is by doing something that is hard that you don't feel like doing at the time.
00:45:57
Speaker
And if you do that, it's like, you know the same as... If you want a big bicep, you do bicep kills or whatever bicep exercise that you're going to do And that then led me to ah kind of go, well, that's that's what I want. I want to have control over myself when things aren't going the way that I want or I'm feeling a bit tired or I don't want to do something.
00:46:22
Speaker
I want to have control to say, no, I said I'd do it, so I'm doing it. That concept of doing the hard thing that you don't want to do to build willpower, have you found that to be true now doing those things?
00:46:35
Speaker
Absolutely. ah It's a big part of what my training has. like It's not something you kind of have to specifically put a lot time for, but it does require some level of mindfulness, I would say, to actually think about things that maybe you're you're sitting in the lead up to going out for a hard interval session and you're like, I don't really feel like doing this right now. It's 3.15 in the morning. It's cold. It's raining.
00:47:11
Speaker
ah just prefer to yeah and just roll back over and go back to sleep. ah or, you know, it might have been a long day at work where it's been really hot and you feel a bit dehydrated and no matter how much water you drink, you still don't feel amazing.
00:47:27
Speaker
But it's... actually identifying that as a ah's an opportunity for growth and then actually looking at that moment as something that I feel like I'm going to get some real growth out of even if I'm not feeling the best and maybe this interval session isn't the best one I've ever run and my times are a little bit slow but I'm going to go out and I'm going to give the effort that i saw that I say that I'm going to give and then I'm going to improve from a mental perspective which is going to help me
00:48:00
Speaker
you know, in my race when things are not going well, but it's also ah helps a lot in life. There's plenty of times where, are you you don't feel like writing that last email or you don't feel like whatever you're doing at work. So you can kind of then turn to yourself and, you know, you might say it out loud, but most people probably just say in the head, just like you said you'd do it, just go and do it. Yeah.
00:48:24
Speaker
I was going to ask about how you see, what the side, like what you've learned about yourself through running, how that has crossed over into just day-to-day life for you and how you see that showing up.
00:48:37
Speaker
um do do Do you have like times when you do see that show up in in everyday life? Yeah, i I think it definitely shows up in everyday life just by the fact that I, so I spoke about when I was having all those troubles in my mental health and i was having to take days off work you know in the last four, like, let even just look from the beginning of my apprenticeship, I think I've had one day that I've taken a sick day and, you know, I've come, ah you know, I came back from the US and I got in Tuesday afternoon, evening sometime. And then I was back at work at six o'clock on Wednesday morning. It's,
00:49:17
Speaker
You know, the and it's been like that after every race, even times where I've had like a ah broken rib or something, like I'm still back at work the next day, you know, carrying timber around and, you know hammering stuff or whatever it is that I'm doing as a carpenter.
00:49:31
Speaker
And it's the same thing. I guess the way that i I can actually count the number of sessions that I've missed in the last five scheduled sessions that Pete's put down for me.
00:49:44
Speaker
i've had So at the beginning of the week, I'll put all my sessions in and I'll know exactly when I'm doing them. And ah in the past four years, I've missed two sessions because something came up and I couldn't get them in that day. And I've had to reschedule a session two times. And that's like the total of the sessions that I've rescheduled or missed in nearly five years.
00:50:07
Speaker
So it's from that perspective, it's something that has really helped. And when you get into the middle of a a 200 plus mile race and your brain's screaming at you to stop.
00:50:19
Speaker
It's that kind of stuff that really ah will help you at the time that you're struggling the most. Do you find that that mindset ever backfires for you where you are pushing through ah something minor, but it becomes a major injury or or an issue?
00:50:36
Speaker
Nothing's turned into a major and ah injury, but one of the things that I've probably identified for myself at the moment is that when I, like I'm definitely my harshest critic and I can be kind of a little bit like I um would probably say like if I don't have a lot of, I guess, sympathy or empathy. If something's not going right for myself, I'm like, you know, just get it done. Yeah. ah But I can be that a little bit like that with other people. So I guess one of the biggest things that I see that I've definitely been trying to work on is to not try and, like, to recognise that not everyone's on the same journey as me to kind of be this kind of person. So...
00:51:20
Speaker
It's also important to take the time to ah like not just be that way with everyone and like give people the time and space and they're on their own journey and whatever that is.
00:51:35
Speaker
And they may or may not have that kind of standard. And there's probably also things that they might might have a much higher standard for than I do it set for myself around, don't know, whatever it is, like being clean and tidy because, ah you know, with all the training and work and everything, sometimes I don't make enough time to, you know, do the dishes and all the other bits and pieces that, you I know that I need to do. you I also need to recognise that there's other things that people definitely bring to the table that I don't, I'm not necessarily always the best at.
00:52:13
Speaker
It's a ah good self-reflection there. I think it's seeing, I would expect a lot of people would say that they are their own harshest critic and sometimes treating ourselves a bit like we we treat others would go ah long way and in certain circumstances.
00:52:30
Speaker
You've also mentioned a couple times there training at 3am or
Training Regimen and Community Support
00:52:33
Speaker
3.15. Is that the time you need to train to get this all in with work? So I've got to usually leave for work or about 6.
00:52:41
Speaker
So if I've got to get up, if I've got a ah session in the morning, yeah, I probably need to wake up at 3 or something like that. um because I can't just can't just wake up and put my shoes on and go out. Like i need to kind of um have a coffee and like particularly just give myself a moment and make sure that I've gone to the loo before I go out running. Like, ah you know, you don't want to get in that situation where you're kind of like 2Ks until you run and then all of a sudden you've got to run back to the house because, you know,
00:53:13
Speaker
you know you need to go to the loo um that's kind of part of the morning routine and then you know having a bit of time also to get prepared for work when i get back in for my run is and have a shower and make sure everything that i've had us i a good breakfast and yeah so i'd normally eat before i run and then i'll eat a decent breakfast when i get home from my run and and make sure that i've uh that i'm set up well for the day ah guess Given that such an early start time, how and and the amount of training that you do, and by means, say, what your training looks like, how do you manage the recovery side of things, actually make sure that this all works and you don't just break down?
00:53:54
Speaker
So last year I was doing that like four mornings a week where I'd get up at 3 or 3.30 to run before work. And I found that I was i was getting nowhere near enough sleep to to recover properly and it was probably counterproductive.
00:54:08
Speaker
So I did do a bit of work on my schedule with my coach and try to work out the best way to recover. um get the volume that I wanted in my training without actually getting up too many mornings. so at the moment, usually I'd get up at least two mornings a week. So usually maybe Tuesday and Friday, I'd get up and do the early morning run before work. And then the other weekdays I'll try, I'll make sure that I that i sleep as for as long as I can until I actually need to go to work.
00:54:40
Speaker
Okay. um Just to make sure that I'm getting a decent amount of sleep. I think there was weeks last year in the lead up to delirious where the total amount of sleep that I got for the entire week was like 28 hours or something like that. Oh, wow. And so I was kind of getting to a point where like I knew that was a thing that I needed to work on. Yeah.
00:55:02
Speaker
after the After that, I had a couple of weeks where my watch said it was about that. and So ah pretty much at that point, I just decided to have a chat with my coach and we agreed that I need to make sure that the nights before I get up like early that I need to make sure I'm in bed relatively early, like before nine o'clock so I get at least six hours and then yeah other nights I need to be aiming for more like eight or something like that. How have you found your capacity to train and also sort of your response to the training change with that change of routine?
00:55:37
Speaker
i don't think my capacity to train has changed that much. But my my mental... I would say i just, when I wasn't getting enough sleep, I was just angry all the time.
00:55:49
Speaker
That was probably the biggest thing. So, like, I was fine. My body physically, everything was fine. I just got, when I was at work and, you know, like, I'd just get frustrated a lot more easily was probably the biggest thing. And ah it's probably not nice for other people to have to be around someone who's, like, um you constantly.
00:56:08
Speaker
Like, ah i was I'm never someone that takes out, uh my anger on other people like yelling at other people or talking down to other people but if you you can see someone who's like angry and um muttering under their breath at themselves because they're not doing the right thing or um it's probably not the most comfortable thing to be around all the time so yeah that was that was probably the biggest thing okay that's that's really interesting it's what i would perceive to be the biggest changes
00:56:41
Speaker
Yeah, interesting to know that that's not always <unk> the case. Obviously your body's just got efficient at working off off that. Bringing you back to the running running itself, I feel like at some point I do need to actually ask you about bit more about your running, although I'm finding this incredibly interesting.
00:56:56
Speaker
The jump that you made, not so much from the first backyard, but from the second where you said 28, up to the point where you set your PB at 75, what were the biggest changes that you made in your training and your approach to backyards that allowed for that increase?
00:57:11
Speaker
So that happened over the course of maybe 18 months. And but i think there was a couple of things. So ah like over the course of 18 months, i think my body just from the training got stronger and much more resilient, I would say, just of um slowly...
00:57:32
Speaker
like building up and like maintaining like a, I wouldn't say, I don't run a massive amount of Ks like for someone who runs these kind of distances in races. So through that time, it might've been somewhere between a hundred and 130 kilometers a week when I'm in my kind of main training block. So,
00:57:52
Speaker
um ah The other thing that, you know, just going through and troubleshooting all of the the different elements, like learning how to sleep during a race, ah learning more about the kit than I needed to bring to race and learning what food worked really well for me and what didn't work well for me.
00:58:12
Speaker
And like a big factor as well – so I've run nine backyard ultras overall and eight of them Phil Gore has run in them. So getting to run against Phil continually, someone who's, you know, even when the Australian record was like 50 or 51 or something like that, Phil obviously had a lot more in the tank at the end of all the races that he'd finished. Yeah.
00:58:45
Speaker
And so – getting to continually get to a point in these races where I got to go to the my absolute limit and then knowing that, like, because Phil's always there, i got to then get to that point and stay at that point for as long as I could.
00:59:05
Speaker
And i think that's... And not to mention that Phil and Gemma over that kind of time did give me a lot of help with different things like teaching me foot care and so being able to learn from him a lot did make a big difference to, i think, my performances.
00:59:24
Speaker
ah So it's something that I think, you know, if you're the the big fish in a little pond, you probably don't like some of the runners in other countries where, you know, maybe the, the,
00:59:38
Speaker
the their Their PB is 36, but they just are maybe capable of a lot more but haven't had the opportunity to really go to their limit continually. They don't get to to experience the the sleep deprivation side of things. They don't get to experience what happens when part of their body breaks down and how do they actually recover from that during the race? Can they can they turn it around?
01:00:02
Speaker
These are all skills that... You learn just by practicing and and getting in a position where like you want to give up and and then your crew works out how to kind of talk to you in a way that's going to help you get through that moment in time.
01:00:18
Speaker
and So you would often be Phil's assist then? on No, I think i've I've been his assist once. Okay. ah like But there's you know there's a lot of um really great runners here in Western Australia.
01:00:34
Speaker
And, you know, are getting to go to the Dead Cow Gully where – and And the Satellite Champs ah kind of run like I was, think that would have been 20, 22 that I was in the Satellite Champs team. So just getting to run against not only Phil but like all the other great runners in um Australia like Ryan Crawford and um Tim Kaprzak and, you know,
01:01:03
Speaker
ah all of these guys that ah you know ah are amazing runners. And so like you learn a lot from from all of them. It also strikes me, doing the research for this and watching some of the films out there, that there's a really strong community but between the guys and I'm sure the women at the top of the sport, the people that are always competing against each other, because you do need each other.
01:01:26
Speaker
like You need to beat each other, but you to get, like you said, to get the best out of yourself, you need somebody to be able to go just one lap less. is that yeah Is that how it feels when you're when you're doing these events?
01:01:37
Speaker
It just depends. all All the runners are a little bit different. Some people will come and run with you and and you'll work together. And other times, ah particularly because I would say i'm one of the slower runners, like often particularly in the back half of race, my lap time might be somewhere between 52 and 55 minutes for most of my loops. So if someone's in a rhythm and they're running 40 minutes five minutes per lap um you know it might not work for them to slow down that much to run with me but there have been times where yeah people have like stayed back and and run with me people phil's done it a couple of times i know at the the recent satellite champs uh johan um ran with me for like
01:02:23
Speaker
probably like five or six laps, which kept me going because I was like, I was probably struggling for, for was at least that amount of time. And I think my second last loop, I got in with like six seconds or so to to spare. And then, yeah so there wasn't much of a turnaround, but it was good. I made it i made it back for one more for one more yard.
01:02:47
Speaker
And one of the runners was like, Rob was quick enough. He thought, oh, my crew had all my gear in a bag. So he just grabbed the bag off them as he saw i was coming, running into the corral. And then he gave it to me as we left. And, you know, that was, as I jumped in there, he just shoved it my hand and said, take this.
01:03:08
Speaker
um So that was good. And then at least I had some food and a little bit of water and um electrolytes and stuff to take out with me on the next loop. And that one you're talking about there, was that the one you did last year?
01:03:20
Speaker
Yeah, that was the one here in Perth in October. Yeah, but how did that one go? Look, it didn't go how I wanted it to go. So I think I ran 55 yards in that one.
01:03:31
Speaker
I was hoping for little bit more, but I'd run the three 200-milers that year and didn't – that year and i didn't I thought the training that I'd been doing, which was really focused on getting better on hills and and in the trails, ah would translate to running on the flat course. I didn't think there'd be – I'd never had problems going from fire frat flat running to ah to running something that was a little more hilly, like it it seemed to go okay. So i was hoping that it might just ah lend itself to –
01:04:11
Speaker
running on that flat hard surface but it just didn't quite go the way that i'd hoped and i just got really sore pretty early on and so just became about managing the soreness and you know running on trails your your gait and your um cadence and everything kind of changes off as the terrain changes but running on something that's flat it's kind of this same those same step and this uh this same cadence throughout the whole race and my body just didn't quite go the way I'd hoped it would. Are there any any other kind of differences that you you did and we'll talk about it last year from the 200 mile perspective shortly but any and any other changes that you made for the 200s that you you removed that you would normally do for the backyards?
01:05:00
Speaker
Any changes that I removed from the 200s? There wasn't anything that I removed. My training changed a lot to become a lot more terrain focused. So at Delirious, I found that my quads in particular in this back half of the race became really sore. And it was because I hadn't done a lot of running on hills at that point and still So my focus became knowing that the other two races, i was going to do them.
01:05:30
Speaker
My focus became on kind of preparing my body for the for running up and down hills a little more.
Strategy and Race Focus
01:05:36
Speaker
And so that was the big focus of my training. Okay. And the whole shift last year, because seemingly you look at your results and your progression in the backyards and hitting 75, okay, didn't have like the day you wanted it.
01:05:51
Speaker
It was at Biggs. Is that, that was where the, you did 55 last year. Is that correct? So at Big Dog's Backyard, that was the one where i did the 75. And then last year, i did the 55 at the Satellite Champs. Okay, thank you. So aside from that Satellite Champs, which obviously is a training thing for the 200s, it seems like your race progression and your potential in the backyard format was really big.
01:06:16
Speaker
And so sort of struck me, i not necessarily as surprise, but just the the fact that you de-emphasized that for to look more at the point-to-point races, particularly these 200 mile races, well What drew you away from the backyards? And ah guess also, do you feel like you're done with them for now?
01:06:35
Speaker
and don't think I'm done with the backyards, but I did. When we were talking about adventure before and just going into the unknown, it it felt like ah when I put my...
01:06:47
Speaker
um ah I signed up for Delirious just to see how it'd go doing a point-to-point race. And then because that one went, well, it didn't go well. I would i would say it actually, you didn't really go how I wanted it to go at all. Like i i was just really lucky that because on that first day, like it was like 42.7, think, degrees at the the third aid station. So we had a really hot day. And because I work on roofs and we'd just been through a heat wave,
01:07:17
Speaker
I seemed to cope pretty well with the heat. So by the time we got to like 200Ks in, I had like a 30K lead because everyone kind of cooked a little bit on the first day. And if I hadn't had that lead, i don't know that I would have hung on and won the race because I was in pretty bad shape at that point.
01:07:34
Speaker
i was, you know, struggling with dehydration and i was... not probably well trained on on the heels, my quads and and my legs weren't feeling the best for that last 100K. So I kind of just...
01:07:50
Speaker
kept going um the best i could but it it wasn't what i imagined in my mind when i thought of how i might be finishing that race with the backyard ultras my my goal almost from the start was to i wanted to see if i get to 72 hours uh when i when i first started with all this in with all my in like training for the iron man i'd applied to do i i'd applied for um the Australian Special Forces to be in the Army commandos. And so part of their kind of selection process, like the last, there's like a week selection process and and and um the back, like the last three days of that week, they kind of keep you awake and just work you as hard as they can for for the three days. And so a little bit of it was just,
01:08:42
Speaker
myself like because of my acl reconstruction and i'd had some shoulder issues issues from football they kind of immediately said when i filled out the medical questionnaire that uh you're not appropriate you're not really appropriate uh sure like for for doing this um but my curiosity was there like could i actually do something like running or something physical and just maintain it for 72 hours and that was kind of from the first i'd say from the the second one where i was trying to go as far as i could that that was really the question that was kind of running the show so that would that was probably a little bit why i felt that i could
01:09:31
Speaker
um step away from the backyards once I got to 75 hours and past that 72 hour mark like that kind of answered a little bit of a question for me that was kind of burning in in the background and so one of the things that I think is really important with but backyard ultras is having a really clear why why would you want to go and run loops of the same course over and over and again yeah and So with that kind of out of the, like, kind of ticked off, I don't know that I have, like, a really strong, like, why? Like, why would I want to continue running the Backyard Ultras? and that that might also been something. With the Satellite Champs, you know, it's such a big honour to be able to represent Australia.
01:10:16
Speaker
And so being on that stage, like, Everyone in the team wants to do their best because it's such a great honor to be a part of that team.
01:10:28
Speaker
But like as a personal why, I don't know what the next thing would be for me in a backyard ultra. And I like, and i as soon as I got 75, I was like, is a hundred possible for me?
01:10:42
Speaker
But I think from, I would need to find a real clear link between what, ah between running a hundred yards and having that mean something significant to me and, and being being something quite simple and and clear, not too convoluted that would probably help me push myself and want to go back and, and really see if I can, can get to that kind of milestone.
01:11:09
Speaker
That's, Really interesting and something that I will speak to people I coach about when they want to do their first hundred or 100 miles, specifically the the longer stuff about you have to have this really strong drive. Why? Because when it gets really hard and when you don't want to go a step further, it's not like a 20k where you're only a few K from the finish. You might have half the distance left, which is still a very long way. In your case, that could be a day or a day and a half so still to go.
01:11:33
Speaker
How then are you viewing your why towards the point-to-point 200 plus mile events? I guess one of the things for me with these longer point-to-point races is that because it is not the same course, it's this you know big...
01:11:52
Speaker
long run, but you don't, like with, except for Coca-Dona, I got a bit of a chance to do some reconnaissance of the course. Like even the course is a bit of an unknown. And so trying to,
01:12:05
Speaker
When you don't know how far away you are from an aid station, well I guess you do on your watch, it says however far you are away, but you don't know what's to come in the, let's say it's 10 Ks away. You don't know exactly what's to come in that 10 kilometers. And ah I guess the, the, it's, it's,
01:12:25
Speaker
it's it's hard to like pin it down but I know when I'm when I've signed up for these and and when I've been in those moments it's kind of become more of about just trying to stay in that moment and I so i guess I I i'd sign up for race because I see the challenge that's ahead and knowing the kind of work that I've got to put in between now and that race is is kind of, I can see the path that doing that work is going to set me on. And and I like going through that process of having to prepare myself to be physically and mentally healthy
01:13:04
Speaker
strong When I get to the race itself, often the things that I'll think about is I just need to – I said that I would keep going, so I just need to keep taking that one more step and I just need to keep moving forward. Yeah.
01:13:18
Speaker
And, you know, there was a couple of times when I was running at Cocodona where – there was someone that would run past and there was, there was, uh, it was a young fellow that ran past me maybe on the last night.
01:13:30
Speaker
And he's like, he said to me, he's like, I don't care if you beat me. I'm just trying to run under 80 hours. And I was like, yeah, look, I don't really care if you beat me either. I just try to take one more step at the moment, just make sure I get to the finish line. Yeah.
01:13:45
Speaker
And it, And so that that was pretty much it. Like once we got to that point, neither of us actually cared about like beating the other person. It was just we had some kind of goal that was in front of us that we were just trying to fill on what we said we'd do at the beginning of the race. And in some ways it might sound more simple, but like the simplicity is kind of I think one of the nice things about taking these on is that it really just becomes a battle of willpower and you just put yourself in that position and your only goal is just to to keep moving forward and just –
01:14:24
Speaker
make sure that you get to the end. Yeah, and you've made that commitment to yourself, as you said, like you've you signed up to it you've done the training. It's a one foot after the other until until you get there. the Since you brought up Kokodono, like I said at the start, Kokodono is where I came across you really for the first time and then followed very closely for the the the whole 80, just over 80 hours that it ended up being.
01:14:54
Speaker
Why Cocodona and what like the experience you had in the three 200 miles you did last year, how how did that sort of transfer into your training and your approach towards Cocodona?
01:15:06
Speaker
So the main reason ah for Cocodona is so after Delirious, I'd already signed up for the Arizona Monster. So that was already on my radar.
01:15:17
Speaker
And then because I was going to Arizona, um ah my friend Johan was pacing me at Irrational South. and So that was the 200 miler in South Australia.
01:15:30
Speaker
And he was talking about Cocodona I'd heard of it before, but I had never watched the live feed. And he was telling me about the race and and that it was like one of his big bucket list races to do. And by the end of it, I was like, that sounds ah like a pretty cool race.
01:15:47
Speaker
And we'd kind of like, while we're out on course, maybe the the second or third time he was out with me pacing, agreed, okay, we're going to do this together. And I don't care about competing. I just want to, we'll just go over and we'll run it together and you know, we can stop on the peaks and if we want to, we'll, we'll stop and we'll take photos and we'll, we'll just like have it as like a, a kind of a cool, cool thing that we've done together.
01:16:10
Speaker
And then after the race, he was kind of a little bit uncertain about like signing up for next year. and i And my mind started ticking over. and I was like, the more I thought about it, I'm like, I really want to do this.
01:16:24
Speaker
And then I called him up and I was like, ah don't really, even if you don't want to do it, I think I'm going to put my name down. I don't think, I think there's still a couple of spots available. ah This is, and then he was like, oh yeah, I can't commit right at the moment. So i went to sign off and I realized like,
01:16:42
Speaker
ah I'd looked at it maybe like two hours before and and there were still spots available, but now it just sold out. oh wow so So I just thought, you know what, I've won two 200-milers this year. So I email ah emailed them and I was like, this is the situation.
01:16:59
Speaker
you reckon you guys could fit me in? i know you probably can't do anything. And I got an email back from – um Steve and Jamil, like maybe like six weeks later, they're like, ah looking at where you are on the wait list, we think you might get in anyway, but we we'll make an exception for you if that doesn't work out that way. But you've got to wait till March. So I kind of knew from about july June, July last year that I was going to be going over and doing it. I just didn't have
01:17:30
Speaker
I just hadn't like officially signed up. yeah so i was i So I knew I was kind of preparing to to go over and and race both races.
01:17:42
Speaker
Okay. that's That's fascinating. For some reason, I had it in my head. It was the other way around that you had Cocodona and added an Arizona. So what was the initial appeal to do the Arizona Monster being 300 miles? Yeah.
01:17:55
Speaker
<unk> I don't know, maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment. So i' I've had delirious, like the particularly the second half of it, didn't go great. And then I was watching this, like all the stuff about a 300-mile race and I was like, you know what, I think I can have a go at that.
01:18:12
Speaker
so And look, it sold out like five or six hours or something. So I'd i'd set my alarm to get up at whatever time it went on sale, which worked out to be like,
01:18:25
Speaker
three o'clock in the morning or something Australian time. So i got on there like I don't know, it was about two hours in or something and signed up for it. And yeah, so, and then I look, I knew from talking with Sean who runs ultra series, like the reason, the reason he kind of started ultra series is because he went over and did, I'm pretty sure it was like Tahoe 200 and that was like back maybe like 10 years ago or something like that.
01:18:51
Speaker
And ah so ah kind of knew that it'd probably be a similar kind of vibe about it because I'm i'm sure that that I kind of had the feeling that he might have based it off that. And there is kind of a lot of similarities between – um how the destination trails races, will that well that race in particular felt, and some of the ultra series races that I've been to, particularly the point-to-point races. Okay.
01:19:17
Speaker
Do you find that having done over 300 miles in a backyard format, the distance doesn't intimidate you?
Coping with Race Challenges
01:19:25
Speaker
Yeah, I wish it had it intimidated me a little bit more. Okay. i I kind of thought maybe it'll be all right. but So, you know,
01:19:33
Speaker
There was probably some boxes I could have ticked and I probably could have got some. Look, I was trying to get good sleep in the lead up to it, but that was something I really stuffed up before the Arizona Monster is that I'd got poor sleep the week before I flew over there.
01:19:47
Speaker
And then I was over in Arizona for like five five days before the race. And I reckon I got a combined like, yeah, look, I don't sleep well at all in that week leading up to it. So that led to some problems.
01:20:01
Speaker
uh, you know, just, it didn't work out well for me in terms of like my, uh, kind of alertness, particularly on that last night bit running in that race. So,
01:20:12
Speaker
That extra, because I've got time here, it took you just over 98 hours to do Arizona Monster. That extra, essentially, day, did that really change things? Or is it pretty similar to doing a 75-hour?
01:20:27
Speaker
It did change it a lot. yeah And so... In all of the 200 milers that I did last year, i slept for, I think the longest I slept in any race overall was like 35 minutes.
01:20:41
Speaker
And going through two nights, it's, I didn't, you know, obviously you're tired at the end of it, but I i didn't feel like, That was too big of a deal.
01:20:52
Speaker
So I went into the Arizona Monster thinking I could kind of go with that similar kind of sleep strategy with like eight to ten minute naps. And by the time I got to the third night, I was absolutely wrecked. And by the time I got to the fourth night, I was just – completely in another world I was just like I didn't clearly know where I was i thought i was in the Philippines at one point and I thought I was running and I thought know like I was telling um John was calling me every kind of little like 20 minutes or so just and and my girlfriend Emma was calling every 20 minutes and then they'd um I'd tell them what I what I was seeing and what I thought was going on and yeah there was all these scenarios that I was telling them about which I'm glad I didn't record yeah that's that's in intense like how do you
01:21:44
Speaker
Like we've spoken about, you just got to get it done. Like when you think you can't, you can. But when you're kind of in that state of delirium, how do you keep yourself going? Well, I found that like once it was really in that period, early morning period that was the worst.
01:22:02
Speaker
So, like, between probably, like, 2 a.m. and and sunrise. Yeah. And on that last night, I just had to sleep. Like, I had to stop and I slept for, like, 45 minutes or something. And at this it was probably the second last aid station. But I also, I was only, like, 5Ks out from the aid station. I also had to lay down and sleep on the road for, like, 20 minutes just to Because I couldn't – I kept falling asleep on my feet and then I'd kind of wake up as I'm kind of starting to fall over. yeah And so, it I just – yeah, i don't I don't know exactly how or why I kept running, but I knew that I –
01:22:44
Speaker
I had to just get to the next aid station and just kind of break it down. I knew it was only 5km away, so when I had that little nap on the road, I got up and I just had to make that 5km to get to the aid station. And I guess one of the things that I would normally think about in this situation is just try and stop well i'd try and stop my mind from going too far into the future and just kind of break it down to, okay, I am currently running whatever it is, even if it's super slow. Like it might have been like 14 minutes per kilometer. I'm like, okay, so we're 5Ks away. So if I can keep doing this,
01:23:28
Speaker
it's It's an hour. yeah I've just got to stay awake for just over an hour wow and keep moving forward at this pace. So when you think about an hour run, it's it' not that big of a deal.
01:23:40
Speaker
and No. as a go Even though at the time I'm really tired, but it's just an hour of going pretty slow. And so and just break it down to something like that.
01:23:52
Speaker
Guys, it's incredible. it's You're right. Just an hour it sounds fine. But when you're 97 hours into it, I can imagine it feels anything but fine. the Yeah.
01:24:03
Speaker
Like, obviously, the logical step then thinking about kakadonia is how do you possibly recover? and refresh enough, even just from the lack of sleep, to be able to do another 250-mile race, what, four weeks later, I think it was?
01:24:17
Speaker
what What was the process there? I was probably pretty lucky because when I was over in the US, I didn't have any commitments. It wasn't like I had to get up for work or anything like that. So I just slept when I felt tired.
01:24:29
Speaker
ah The first week or so, I was probably sleeping about nine, nine and a half hours a night. And then it probably took about – 10 days, I think, until I was starting to feel pretty close to normal again. And I just got out and did something every day. Like for the first little bit, it was just going out for a hike.
01:24:50
Speaker
um And then probably around two weeks in, I started doing like – an interval session or two and I put out some messages onto the Cocodona like runner's page and said, look, I'm hanging around Arizona for the next three weeks.
01:25:08
Speaker
If anyone wants to come for a run, let me know. And I had lots of people that messaged me and so that was cool. I got to meet lots of local people that lived around Flagstaff and ah and a couple of ah of the people. I kind of went down to Phoenix for the week before the race. So,
01:25:27
Speaker
Some of the runners that were flying in from interstate were kind of staying in places around ah Phoenix. And so I got to go for hikes and runs with people. So that was kind of like a really nice way to kind of get introduced to the event was just to meet some of the people that are doing them. Okay. Hear their experiences and stories because, you know, a couple of people I went and ran with uh you know aaron is one of the guys that's finished at five times so like getting to run with him and uh and there was one run we we went well more of a hike we went up with jeff browning up um mount eldon so just getting to run with someone who you know jeff was the year before was leading the race up until the very last kind of minute yeah
01:26:17
Speaker
Getting to, you know, chat to those guys about it was was really, really helpful. And, you know, the they're both awesome guys too. So it was just cool to make some, like, friends over there as well.
01:26:32
Speaker
it It doesn't strike me then that you actually found the recovery element and getting recharged for Cocodona that hard? No, look, I wouldn't say it was that hard.
01:26:43
Speaker
I'd spoken with my coach, Pete, about it before the race. And one of the big things he said ah was, you know, there's there's not really any fitness to be gained by going out and training hard between these two races. so the best thing we can do is just make sure you feel fresh when you get to the start line. so just do what you think you need to do to get everything up and firing. He gave me some like um kind of like strength workouts to kind of just, just get everything activated in my body again. And I did a couple of interval sessions just to get fired up and, you know, just get all the muscles and things working again. But yeah, um yeah there was, wasn't too much structure around And yeah,
01:27:26
Speaker
and one of the things he also said to me was you're probably going to get a lot more value out of knowing some parts of the course. So, you know, you know the parts of the course that want to, that you think might be difficult or that might pose some challenges, go and run on those or, and see if you can learn as much about the course as possible.
01:27:48
Speaker
And that's probably going to help you a lot more than than doing any kind of hard runs or long runs in the time you're here. Yeah. Sounds like some very good ah advice.
01:27:59
Speaker
And so Cocodona, I find it fascinating because it's not the first race of this distance. I said there's... but Tahoe has been around for ages and I'm sure there's plenty others that have been around for just as long if not longer in that 200 plus mile category but it does seem to be that Cocodona itself has really captured the attention and the competitive side of the sport as well the people that we're seeing come into it like Arlen Glick who's in this like heyday of his 100 having great performances. and It's not just a ah swan song. It's not just a retirement distance anymore.
01:28:34
Speaker
what What do you think it is about Cocodona that has really got people so interested? i think a big part of it is the way that they've promoted it as a race. So a lot of 200 milers that you see to this point are more marketed as like and this is an adventure run as opposed to this is people rocking up to race.
01:28:59
Speaker
So i think that is going to draw a lot of those people that would normally go for a distance like 100 kilometres or 100 miles, and which over the last 10 or 15 years have been becoming more and more focused on performance and racing than just completing them, um particularly amongst elite runners. um so it's now giving...
01:29:28
Speaker
those runners that are focused on competition, ah an avenue to to enter into this distance and see how they stack up against some of the other really elite runners. And the I guess the the interesting thing about the field that you see at Cocodona is there is people from so many different kind of backgrounds that are there doing the racing, people that have done like through hiking FKTs and people that have really specialised in much shorter distances and and been really great at
Race Dynamics and Environment
01:30:03
Speaker
it.
01:30:03
Speaker
um You know, it's there's, i guess... Seeing also like a distance where there's there's like men and women seem to be a lot closer, particularly at the top end of the field, like seeing, know, I know Courtney didn't finish the race this year, but seeing her kind of like out in front at up the top of Mingus and, you know, what's that, about 115 miles flying. Yeah.
01:30:31
Speaker
but ah she was flying um Yeah, and then look, maybe that's – I don't have to know exactly why she pulled out, but that could have been part of it that though maybe she pushed a little bit too hard too early. um But, yeah, there's there's all these kind of dynamics that come into play and then there's been just been really good broadcasting of it.
01:30:52
Speaker
Yeah. The fact that you've got that live stream the whole time, you've got some really cool films like – you know I don't know if you've had a chance to watch the chase. Yeah, the the one from last year. Yeah, so that that right that was like an awesome film and it did highlight the race aspect of it really, really well.
01:31:13
Speaker
oh And I guess also – You know, no one was looking at Harry prior to the race. He kind of just emerged out of nowhere and won the race and probably because of a sensible pacing strategy, whereas ah think this year he went in see how fast he could go.
01:31:34
Speaker
And he was like half an hour ahead at the time he got to Crown King. So 35 miles in, he's like half a – well, that's what they were saying at the aid station. yeah He came through um there about half an hour before the next person.
01:31:49
Speaker
ah And then he had a bit of a stack somewhere in the Bradshaws. And that was like kind of pushed him back. But – you know, seeing someone attack a 200 mile race that hard is something that, you know, I don't know that anyone would have even attempted that before. Yep.
01:32:09
Speaker
um So I guess that's the big big part of it. Look, I almost felt like I was in tears running down the – I almost had a tear running like out of the entry area just how loud it was. Like the other races that I've done, there's yeah, there's people cheering, but it was like a 200-metre lineup of people just yelling and there was but you know people with like – bells and whistles and horns and all sorts of stuff as you're running down that main race and it was like i was so cool i was like all these people are here and i'm running this race this is amazing that's brilliant it yeah i saw it on the live stream and
01:32:48
Speaker
it's like what air viper do to have the event and to have that that good of a broadcast and that continued continuality of of broadcasting throughout definitely helps tell the story and and you're right the the chase was an incredible film like if anyone listening hasn't seen that it just kept I think it's about an hour and 45 long, but I was just captivated the entire time in the storytelling.
01:33:12
Speaker
um And then this year, seeing like I was following Rachel Entrican's dot as she just kind of made her way through the whole field. It was yeah was fascinating and very, very but so like exhilarating because it didn't take so long, but it was it was very was great to watch. the The two things that really stood out and aside from the pacing side of things, was the mud and the cold. And I think Courtney has essentially said that she had a complete system shut down and the speculation is because of the cold and that she wasn't wearing that many of that layers early on.
01:33:47
Speaker
Were they kind of the two condition takeaways ah that you had from Cocodona? i So I didn't find the mud too bad i because I had such a Bad experience with the cold ah running up Mount Lemmon at the Arizona Monster. I had pretty much a bit of a body shut down up the top there, and it took like an hour to get me back up and going, like a bit of hot chocolate you know They brought all the heaters into the kitchen and they wrapped me up in blankets and tried to warm me up.
01:34:17
Speaker
And it took like probably an hour ah to get me out of that aid station from when I was initially trying to put on my pack and I was like, ah, no, this is not happening. Wow. So I'd probably laid up my gear and I got some better gloves and a few different things that that helped me deal with the cold a little bit more.
01:34:39
Speaker
oh The mud, I guess the areas where it was muddy, you could kind of see, particularly there's a section where you go through the aid stations called Fane Ranch. So after you go through Prescott and Whiskey Row, you run through the like Watson Lake, which is these granite dells. And then you're on this paddock for like, don't know, maybe 10 miles or so. And there's an aid station in the middle of it.
01:35:03
Speaker
And yeah, The area where it was really muddy, you could kind of see everything happening about a mile in front of you and you could see everything happening about a mile behind you.
01:35:13
Speaker
to So we could kind of see that no one was running. Yeah. And it was kind of once we could see that, actually, there was like a 80 mile Mingus Traverse race. the front runners of that did run past us.
01:35:27
Speaker
ah And they were they were going pretty hard. And even they were struggling. They were had fresh legs and they were struggling to run through it. So we kind of knew who the people that were doing the 250 training And it was just kind of we just decided to have some fun like stomping in the mud.
01:35:46
Speaker
and You know, just enjoy that little moment where we didn't have to feel bad that we weren't pushing hard. We were just having some fun. yeah And I had a pacer at that time, so it was good, ah you know,
01:35:59
Speaker
uh remote who was pacing me was like good uh to chat to so we would just have a bit of a chat and just enjoyed our time out there playing in the mud that's yeah pretty much yeah that's great that's great and like looking back at cocodona now yeah ah how how do you feel it went especially given the fact that you had a 300 mile in your legs from only four weeks ago i think it went pretty well i think so that When I do these kind of races, like initially I would, when I started running, i would focus on the result of the race and that would be the outcome that would determine whether I thought it was a good race or not.
01:36:39
Speaker
But when i when I went into Cocodona, I had some specific things that I wanted to focus on, things that I thought that I could control, and I thought if I did them well, I'd be happy with the result.
01:36:51
Speaker
So one was just trying to continually move when I'm on course and not like not let myself stop regardless of how slow I'm going. I just need to make sure that I'm working forward at the pace that I feel is the fastest I can go at that time. One was getting through aid stations quickly because I didn't do that very well at the Arizona Monster. I did faff a lot because there was a lot of aid stations where I didn't have crew. So I had a lot of aid stations where I wasn't sleeping and they took –
01:37:23
Speaker
between 45 minutes and I think there was one where I didn't sleep at all. I just faffed about it. It took almost an hour and 10 minutes or something. yeah So it was just time that I wasted. So that was a big focus at Cocodona just to get in and out as quickly as possible. And i i I look back at it, the longest I stayed at any aid station that I didn't have a sleep planned was like 15 minutes or 15 minutes 42 or something like that. and I think I got through the first two aid stations and two water stops in a combined time of like 14 minutes or something like that. So wow that was the something that I'd really focused on yeah getting much better at getting things in and out of my pack quite quickly, knowing exactly what I needed to put in what pockets and what stuff would need to come out. and
01:38:10
Speaker
And I spent a little bit of time rehearsing Coming into an aid station, i like in a hotel room, I'd fill up my water bottles and I'd put them back in my pack and I'd time it. And I'd do that as I was creating my drop bags for the you know the day or two before I actually went out to towards the start of the course and I just practiced those kind of things. So i was pretty happy with that. And I tried a bit of a different sleep strategy before.
01:38:37
Speaker
ah which was like trying to sleep 20 on the first night. Then I had a longer sleep on the second night, which was 45 minutes. And then see how, and then that led, and then then just a few little dirt naps, like five minutes here and there.
01:38:54
Speaker
And by the time I got to the third night, I was feeling much, much better than I was at the Arizona Monster. So just by having a little more sleep, that made a big difference to my ah ability to keep moving forward and and my ability to...
01:39:12
Speaker
I guess, keep the main goal, which is to to get to the end as quickly as possible in focus. Yeah, just keep executing the steps along the way as such.
01:39:25
Speaker
I realise as we've been talking, I've kind of been lumping and anything over 200 miles into the same boat. know I've asked if if Arizona was was different, but in the same way we would see 100-mile event as different to a 200-mile event, would you see that same difference 200 to 300 even to cocadoa It was definitely different for me having – so those two courses, the – given that they're getting – like you're going through a full third night, that's a very big difference between the 200 milers where it was only two nights. So all three of the 200 milers last year were around that kind of 57 to 60-hour range given they started in the morning.
01:40:10
Speaker
ah didn't go through a third night. I didn't go through a full third night in any of them. So having to deal with a third and a fourth night here was quite different and it did have a pretty big impact on me. And
Future Plans and Philosophies
01:40:25
Speaker
it's something that I, after doing them, that I really want do more of that because i sleep then becomes such an important ingredient in your ability to do everything else. So finding that right thing
01:40:42
Speaker
amount of sleep that's going to allow you run quicker ah versus the time that it takes to actually have the sleep. I think there's a lot that can be kind of dug into and and looked at in that kind of space.
01:40:57
Speaker
Okay, that's interesting. So it sounds like looking forward, there's going to be more of these in your future. Absolutely. i I ah think the next things that I want to do are kind of, I'm i'm enjoying, i really enjoyed going that little bit longer and and having all those extra variables that came into it. so the next couple of things that I've got planned are FKTs. So they're going to be kind of looking at that, you know, eight to 11 day range is kind of the next thing that that next kind of unknown area for me that I'm going to have a go at. Yeah.
01:41:34
Speaker
Are you able to say what you're looking at yet? have you got anything locked in? Oh, yeah. So I am going to be running the Bivelman track. I'm going to have a go and attempt at the FKT in September this year.
01:41:48
Speaker
Okay. so ah So there's another runner who's looking to run – well, he's going to run it at similar times. So we we're actually – we have had a good chat, and so I'm going to take off 48 hours before him. And, yeah, so that's – it's it's not ah It's not a race per se, but just given um that what we're both kind of aiming for the same thing, ah I imagine like our there will be a bit of dynamic where we will at points in our run be looking at each other and seeing how we are both going. So it kind of, it might, it changes it from just going and doing the FKT it's by ourselves and there's no one there.
01:42:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's fascinating. I think a while back i was listening to a single track podcast and they were saying about the concept of the tracks that go north to south or south to north, someone starting at the same time, two people starting at the same time on opposite ends and seeing who can get there first, that kind of thing. And I kind of...
01:42:44
Speaker
The idea of having a race, like not a race, but a kind of race within this whole concept, I think is is is fascinating. What's the existing FKT? So it's like 10 days and about 17 hours. It's kind of in that ballpark. What do you think you'll need to do to hold it after this other guy as well?
01:43:03
Speaker
i Look, I have no idea because it is pretty much for me, it's an unknown. I'm working on a bit of a strategy at the moment that similar to what I was planning at Cocodona, I know that I'm – I did get to talk to Jeff Browning about his Colorado trail FKT while i was over in um the States and – One of the things that he said to me, so he'd kind of worked on a 90 minutes of sleep per night kind of strategy.
01:43:36
Speaker
But the first night he was feeling really like good. And he he said that he didn't he kind of only stopped for like 20 minutes that first night. And he said that really started to catch up with him like later in the the run. So I guess for me, I'm just going to, I'm kind of going to work on maybe something like that, like 90 minutes of sleep in the nighttime and,
01:43:59
Speaker
you know, there'll probably be a stop during the day where I'll probably have like a shorter sleep, maybe 20 minutes or something like that. Wow. And yeah, it's unknown. So doing like a lot of the attempts that I've seen on similar length kind of FKTs, people have kind of run for more like 16 hours a day and and had a bit of a longer sleep at night, like five or six hours or something in in that kind of ballpark.
01:44:25
Speaker
um I guess given, like I know that I'm not the the quickest person either and I guess that's not the main decision driving my sleep strategy, but in all the races that I've done, because I'm not quick, um I think I'm better off focusing on just continually moving forward at the best pace that I can manage and just see how it goes. And doing something like this, because I'm aiming to, well, because I'm not planning to sleep an awful lot, it could all fall apart really quickly and maybe not work the way that I want it to's
01:45:00
Speaker
It's all a little bit of an unknown at the moment. So I'm just like happy just to kind of have a strategy. I've got some good people that are going to come down and crew for me at the moment.
01:45:15
Speaker
um And so i know they know me really well. They've like been with me at a few different races and I think they'll probably recognize pretty quickly if I'm getting to a point where I'm talking nonsense and things aren't working. So maybe then we'd have to adjust the strategy and, and change it. And maybe I have to sleep a little bit more or whatever that might be, but we'll probably talk scenarios more than anything in the lead up to it. Like if this is happening, this is probably the first thing. And this is the second thing that I need to do.
01:45:48
Speaker
um But I know that with Jeff's FKT, that was one of the things that he was getting to a point where he's pretty close to pulling the pin on the whole thing. And then his crew just put him to sleep and just said, look, we're not setting the alarm. You just sleep. And when you get up, you go again.
01:46:06
Speaker
and when you do these kind of things, your legs just get really sore. So it's not like you, i don't imagine even if I did have to do something like that, that I'm going to sleep for like 10 hours or something. It's probably only going to be three or four hours and I'll probably wake up and it'll be time to go again. Yeah, that's it is really fascinating.
01:46:25
Speaker
the The whole long trail FKT and a bit like yourself, I've always liked the concept of the, the logistical side matched with the fitness side and that it's not just who can be the fittest and the fastest or who can endure the most, it's all the planning as well and and finding out what works best for you specifically, which it sounds like Arizona and Cocodona has really shown you things that you can take forward.
01:46:50
Speaker
With that in mind, if you ah had somebody approaching you who was looking to step up from that 100 mile to do their first 200, it doesn't have to be necessarily course specific, though if there was one in Australia that you would recommend, please do recommend.
01:47:04
Speaker
What advice would you give to that person? I've never actually run a 100 mile up. okay Okay. I've never had to take the step up. like i just I did the backyard and then I jumped straight into 200 milers. Yeah.
01:47:16
Speaker
so But when I've like stepped up through the backyards, the the biggest thing that I would say is try not to think too far ahead.
01:47:27
Speaker
Like if so I'm assuming that theyre they've already signed up and that's what they're planning on doing. ah One of the things that i I've probably read like well ah the the majority of, I have ah like a ah habit or practice that I read for half an hour before I go to bed every night and ah The majority of the books that I've been reading over the last kind of 12 months relate to Stoic philosophy.
01:47:55
Speaker
And the basic the basic overriding principle is that you can't control – you pretty much can't control anything – that happens around you.
01:48:08
Speaker
The only thing that you can really control ah is your thoughts. And then your thoughts pretty much dictate what actions you take in life. So focus on the things that you can control is what I would say.
01:48:24
Speaker
And try to, so like if I was to try and give you a concrete example, like you can't control how fast someone else is running the race. All you can do at that point is focus on whatever it is that you said you'd be doing at that time during the race. If it's in an aid station, focus on, okay, the the things that I need to do and the order that I need to do them and get them done in the most efficient manner.
01:48:50
Speaker
ah If you said that you were going to run at a certain pace through a section, Don't try and run twice that pace because someone else is running quicker. Do what you said that you would do And that's a big part of, i think, what helped me a lot during Cocodona.
01:49:09
Speaker
I think when I left Crown King Aid Station, which was like... 35 miles in, i was in something like 60th place or 63rd place or something I was told.
01:49:21
Speaker
So i was thinking, value you you know, like um um I thought I went pretty well in that first section, so I'm probably not going to end up going too much higher than that. But as the race went on, I just focused on just doing my own thing.
01:49:33
Speaker
didn't overtake an awful lot of people on the course. But there was eight stations where i came in and I was ah talking with Emma on the phone after I left.
01:49:45
Speaker
think it might have been Jerome aid station, which is probably about 120 miles in. And I came into the aid station and I was like, I saw about four or five people come into the aid station and they they left, but I didn't know they'd gone down to their cars to like get some new clothes and whatever because it been wet.
01:50:04
Speaker
So I came into the aid station and Emma said, you were in 25th or 24th or position when you came into the aid station. And like I was talking to her on the phone while i was kind of running out of the aid station and she's looking and she's like, oh, you're currently in –
01:50:24
Speaker
19th or 20th spot. And I was like, oh, but everyone came in and left and like, how is that possible? She's like, nah. Because at that point I rushed my crew. I'm like, all right, I don't need to do this. i don't need to do that. Everyone's leaving. Let's just go And so I probably got in and out of the aid station in under 10 minutes.
01:50:42
Speaker
and And then, you know, got on to the next section pretty quickly and I took five positions just by getting in and out of the aid station quickly.
01:50:53
Speaker
ah And that that was probably the story throughout most of the race is that just by focusing on those kind of things that I said I was going to do well at the beginning of the race, the rest of the stuff kind of took took care of itself and, you know, I went then from like – whatever i was 63rd or something ended up in 14th place just because i stuck to my strategy i was consistent throughout the race and i did the things that i said i was going to do at the beginning of the race the things that i could control well and that was probably
01:51:28
Speaker
what worked in my favor in the long run. It's some very good advice there, not just for the 200 mile. I think that that's very applicable, whichever direction you wish you wish to go from there, shorter or longer.
01:51:41
Speaker
Aaron, I'm very conscious of the fact that we are two hours in. Officially, this is my my longest one and I honestly feel like I could just keep peppering you with questions there are so many things in my head that I haven't known to get a chance to but I think we should save that for a second one potentially after this FK FKT attempt is there anything that you do feel like we've we could have touched on a bit more or that you would like to you'd like to say before we sign off ah there's nothing that's like on the tip of my tongue sorry no that's all good yeah I'd just like to give that opportunity just in case it's something that I've I've kind of glossed over her that you would have liked to uh spoken about bit more but thank you so much for your time and for being so open I think you're the fact that you're willing to share so much about your journey with mental health and as we spoke up before starting this it's
01:52:30
Speaker
you're so far down the track now that you're able to look back at with that sort of compassion and a bit of almost potentially disconnected that you can talk about it bit more freely so I do really appreciate that and learning everything about your your story I'm very excited to see what kind of comes next for you it's the only question I've got left is you think you'll be going back to Coca Donut Absolutely.
01:52:51
Speaker
If I can get in, that is. Jameel was really adamant when I spoke to him after the race that he doesn't want to see a lottery, But given that it sold out in like 15 minutes or something and they managed to crash the UltraSignUp website this year, i it may my be may have to go back on that.
01:53:11
Speaker
So I don't know will happen, but I imagine next year when tickets go on sale for it, I'll be trying to log in, maybe get some friends to try and log in and I'll give them my details and see if I can get into it maybe 27 or 28, but we'll just keep trying until, until, uh, get back in, I reckon. Okay. Well, that'd be, be good to follow. And in the meantime, sure there'll be a lot of, uh, very interesting adventures. And, um, yeah, if you do, I decided to go back to the to the backyard format, see if you can get 100 jars. I'll definitely be following along with that story. So thanks so much for time. It's been great to get to know you and speak to you and have a great rest of your evening.
01:53:51
Speaker
Thanks. You too, James. Thank you for listening to that conversation with Aaron. I hope that you got as much out of it as I did. As you can tell by the fact that we went for just over two hours, this is a conversation that I found really interesting and I kept wanting to dive more into what Aaron's story is and how he has seen that portray in his running now.
01:54:11
Speaker
It was incredibly open and incredibly forthcoming talking about some pretty hard hitting subjects. So I do really thank Aaron again for this conversation.
Closing and Social Media Engagement
01:54:19
Speaker
If you want to follow Aaron, please do check out his Instagram AaronDoesUltra.
01:54:24
Speaker
He's got some incredible stuff coming up this year and I'm sure down the pipeline it too. If you enjoyed the conversation, do give us five stars if you listened to your podcast and consider giving us a quick written review too. That goes a long way. Follow us on Instagram. Thank you so much for listening and we'll catch on the next one.