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Kellie Angel & Ben Burgess: UTA Podium, West Mac Course Record, and WMTRC Course Previe
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On this Trail Running Podcast, we sit down with Ben Burgess and Kellie Angel for another catch up on the show.
Kellie reflects on her third place at UTA 100 mile before diving into an incredible two-week experience at the HOKA Pro Trail Camp in Europe. Ben shares his course record run at West Macs Monster and a second place finish at a Sky Race in Andorra.
Together, they take us inside their recent 80km recce of the World Mountain & Trail Running Championships long course, breaking down the terrain, challenges, and mindset required to represent Australia on the world stage.
We cover racing, training, and the unique experience of being part of the global trail community while chasing big goals in Europe.
***Don’t forget, use code PPP at Bix’s website for 20% off Bix products, exclusive to PPP listeners!***
Thanks for tuning in to Peak Pursuits! Connect with us on Instagram @peakpursuits.pod to share your thoughts, questions, and trail stories. Until next time, keep hitting the trails and chasing those peak pursuits!
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Transcript
Introduction of Athletes
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the People's Shoots podcast. My name is James Sieber and today I'm joined by two of our World Mountain Trail Running Championships long trail athletes. Kelly Angel, who is team captain alongside Matt Crean and Ben Burgess, who is in the team for his first time.
00:00:30
Speaker
Guys, thanks for jumping on today. How are you both going? Good. Thank you. Thanks for having us on.
Unique Training Opportunities
00:00:35
Speaker
Yeah, really good. I decided when Ben sent the message that you guys are going to be Camp Frank where the race is having done the recce of the full long course, I was like, this is, this is cool. This is a, a pretty unique opportunity, especially the fact that we've got four weeks to go and not just one week out from it.
00:00:50
Speaker
Um, before we do dive in though, we've, well, I've had chance to speak to both of you pretty recently, um, Ben back in April, mid-April was it?
00:01:01
Speaker
Yeah, it would have been roughly that time. I'd just come back from Tassie. Yeah, and then Kelly, yourself, just before you hit UTA early May. So ben I'll start with yourself since you're a bit further since.
00:01:13
Speaker
What have you been
Road Trip Adventures and Historic Runs
00:01:14
Speaker
up to? I think you've you've had a pretty historic run over on the West Max. Yeah, um last time we spoke I was in Melbourne and I think promptly after that I was road tripping through Central Oz.
00:01:27
Speaker
um I guess taking the long journey up to Darwin to see my partner, but throwing a bunch of races in the mix. So I hopped in to the Flinders Ranges and ran a fifty k at the Icora Ultra.
00:01:41
Speaker
ah It's kind of having a new life, that race and super fun, super low key, really amazing place for people in Oz to go and visit.
00:01:52
Speaker
I know a lot of people speak highly of the Flinders Ranges, but not a lot of people go and actually get feet on the ground. Just to interrupt you really quickly, when you say it's having a new life, what do you mean by that? So race has been taken on by a bunch of RDs over the years.
00:02:07
Speaker
It was once part of these kind of delirious West, um irrational Souths, kind of these 200 mile races that were taking part in Oz. ah It's since been taken on by Morgan Cool. He's a South Australian guy just trying to get...
00:02:24
Speaker
heaps of um local South Australians involved in the trails. And so now they're running no longer a 200 miler, but they have a hundred miler at that event and a few other distances. So that kind of formed the perfect tune up for Westmax, similar terrain, kind of hot exposed conditions.
00:02:44
Speaker
And yeah, about I think I was about two weeks out. So and nice little taste tester for what I was in
Challenges and Triumphs in the West Macdonald Ranges
00:02:52
Speaker
for. And then Yeah, my partner and I met in Alice Springs. We promptly headed out to the very Western um area of the West Macdonald Ranges.
00:03:03
Speaker
And for four days, we hiked our sorry asses through that incredibly technical barren terrain. ah Beautiful. But yeah, I think both of us were kind of looking at each other on day one with 20 kilo packs and just going, oh, this is this is a lot.
00:03:22
Speaker
And it was a lot to do in the lead up to then running 128 Ks about a day after I finished the hike. Oh, wow.
00:03:33
Speaker
the Was the body really feeling that at the start of West Max? Because West Max, was it wasn't just a something you're just going to jump into. You were going there with the intention of pushing it.
00:03:44
Speaker
Totally. Yeah. But I also, you know, I feel like I've dragged my beautiful partner to these races so many times and we haven't really kind of given her the opportunity to to make the most of these events.
00:03:56
Speaker
um And so I thought, you know, it's it's important to to do that and give her that experience. um She's from Darwin, but hadn't spent any time in central Australia before.
00:04:08
Speaker
ah So that was awesome. But yeah, I think by about day three, I was feeling a few niggles and mostly because we were having to do pretty hefty water carries. And by that, I mean six liters of water in an already heavy pack.
00:04:23
Speaker
And my knees were just starting to buckle. um And I was going, you know, I've done these hikes in the lead up to races um in part in past um iterations. But yeah, this this was bigger than what I'd done before. And I was starting to feel a bit concerned about how that would manifest on race day.
00:04:47
Speaker
So I think when before KMR, you went on at least a two day hike to kind of clear clear the mind, refresh the body, but that's a very different experience to technical, hot, heavy packs, multiple days. Yeah.
00:05:03
Speaker
yeah i wasn't I wasn't feeling like I was filling my cup on this hike. Mind you, ah don't think there is anything more that you can do for that race than just getting feet on the ground, experiencing the terrain, knowing what the days feel like and what that heat looks like.
00:05:21
Speaker
and I think that could equally be said for world mountain running champs. like I think Kelly and I both agree that there's nothing really... better that you can do in preparation for this race than just seeing what you're up against because it is really different to what we're used to in Oz and even different to what um a lot of European runners will have experienced in Europe before. Okay. All right. Well, um I'm intrigued to dive into what what that actually means in a bit, but your Westmax run, i want to make sure that since we are chatting, we do give it the credit that it needs because you went and broke the course record by nearly three hours.
00:06:00
Speaker
you um'm I'm curious to see what what you and Matt Gore had as a kind of race, whether you ever saw each other, because the ah was having a look at the results just now, and but the top four all broke the old course record, is that correct?
00:06:17
Speaker
Yeah, london but and all under 19. So what was the dynamic at at that race and sort of and how did it yeah did it go? Yeah, I mean, I was really excited to race Matt and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't nervous to go up against him because I know he's had great success in these events.
00:06:33
Speaker
um I think the one thing that I really took confidence from was i just I've spent this whole year racing on really technical terrain in quite remote places as well. Yeah.
00:06:46
Speaker
So my build was really specific for this kind of event. I had a good chat to Matt the night before the race at the briefing, and he hinted at the fact that he wasn't kind of fully recovered from some ankle stuff that he'd been dealing with.
00:07:02
Speaker
which on this terrain is just, it's not really the way you want to go into a race. um It's, you could roll an ankle on the runnable stuff a hundred times over.
00:07:15
Speaker
And so we let out the race together from the get-go. ah ran together on what is probably the most runnable section of the course, that first 20 kilometers, and kind of doing a bit of battle, um kind of leapfrogging one another, I guess, sussing each other out and showing that we were both there to compete.
00:07:37
Speaker
But at about the 15 K mark, i i made a move feeling strong and knowing that psychologically, if I could run the runnable stuff faster than the runner, ah then once we get the technical stuff, then I was just in my element. And i think at about 60 K, ah had an hour gap.
00:07:57
Speaker
ah back to Matt and that just gave me all the confidence in the world and then it was just about surviving the back half this course is so technical and relentless and my guts went at 80k and that was a whole other thing that I hadn't experienced in racing for a long time so it was a real battle and heading into The dark without pacing was another thing, but I think this this kind of battle and resilience training is going to bode really well kind of heading into the future.
00:08:30
Speaker
Definitely.
Training Strategies for Endurance Races
00:08:31
Speaker
And I know that training, the gut, we're in heat at intensity, even if you are talking about 16-hour intensity, it's a whole different ballgame. And it's one that I'm sure both of you are going to have to confront head on whilst you're over there. So it's yeah, we'll kind of dig into a bit more about that do want to hear about how how now you've seen the course, you're going to think about your nutrition strategies. But Yeah, when I saw the results come up for West Max and I saw the time, looked at the old course record and i was like, wow, OK, that's a pretty big statement.
00:08:56
Speaker
um Reflecting on on that now because we're couple months or so removed from it. How do you feel like you performed on that day? ah had a great day. I think, I mean, that race is so much about just troubleshooting and being flexible when things arise, being accepting of the fact that you are moving incredibly slow in sections.
00:09:17
Speaker
And that there is a lot of hiking to be done. A lot of the flat stuff, when you look on the profile, actually is just really soft sand and riverbeds are full of kind of rocks.
00:09:29
Speaker
there is no real opportunity to let the legs loose. um It was really hard to kind of predict times for this race, but I, ah knew we were on course record watch with enough people to kind of go for it.
00:09:41
Speaker
Uh, I just didn't know how but like how deep we could go and dig into that course record. I do think, and I i hope, you know, people go out and and try to take this down. Like there's meat on the bone as well.
00:09:56
Speaker
I didn't have my best day out there. i think if I had company through the night, like I could have at least gone half an hour faster. um And, you know, I'm also saying that to myself for future years. I'd love to come back and and be a part of this race, whether it's 120K or the other distances. I just think this is such a spectacular event.
00:10:17
Speaker
And yeah, it needs the respect that it deserves. It's just such a shame that it clashes with UTA so often. Yes, yes, but a very different type of experience. I think especially when people like yourself and Matt head to that, I know that there's been like Holly Ransom's been there for the women's side and set some pretty, pretty stout times. It's definitely going to help, even if maybe you're not going to get the depth of field, you've still got the ghosts of years past to, to race and see where you stack up against. And like you said, like in terms of technicality, I'm sure there's not much that can sort of rival that over here.
00:10:50
Speaker
Um, so yeah, yeah. No, well, well done. That was a very, very impressive race. Kelly, yourself, you we've we finished up a conversation, you letting me know that you were going to hit UTA 100 mile. I nearly fell off my seat because we were talking about how after Buffalo, the kind of letting the legs recover, you were feeling like there was sort of a bit of a break required and your response was, yeah, I'm going to run 100 miles because can't.
00:11:14
Speaker
Yeah. you went on to have, at least from the outside, a really strong day. I know of some, I don't know exactly how far through you were, but you ran past me and said that you were actually able to kind of eat and you were moving up through the field. I think you were fourth at that point behind Jazz. You ended up finishing in third.
00:11:31
Speaker
How, ah in in ah as as detailed as you'd like to go into it, how how did UTA go, especially considering we had Buffalo in the legs from, what, seven weeks prior or so?
UTA Experience and Strategy Adjustments
00:11:43
Speaker
Yeah, look, I think it was ah it was a really positive race for me. it had been quite a while since I'd had a good long race, i' just struggling with the guts a little bit. So I'd started working with Precision um and one of their sports scientist guys and and we changed a few things.
00:12:02
Speaker
um including significantly upping the electrolytes. um And I've also been playing with the Dansetron, the anti-nauture medication.
00:12:13
Speaker
um And so, yeah i went into this one feeling hopeful, but also not knowing how it was going to go. um You know, I was pretty nervous because, um yeah, all of the long races that I've done, including CCC in 2023, Western States last year, and then Hong Kong. um just My guts hadn't let me demonstrate my fitness, I guess. um And so this one, the day before, but the whole lead-in wasn't ideal. Teague's had a ah stall for T8 at the UTA Expo.
00:12:50
Speaker
And we'd driven up from Melbourne. And um so the day before, I had the kids and T's had the expo and it was just very hectic. I kind of felt like I'd run a marathon before I even got to bed.
00:13:02
Speaker
um And so I was getting a bit stressed about that. But um we got there and the conditions were interesting. um it wasn't really raining, but it was, I think it was like 98% humidity or something stupid. Like it was clouds. It was it was not not not a nice morning.
00:13:20
Speaker
Yeah, it was was just interesting. um But yeah, I had a really good start and I think ah I led probably to 70k maybe.
00:13:31
Speaker
um My crew missed me at the first aid station. The first main one. um I'd been really hanging out to see them and apparently the trackers weren't working. So they were inside having coffee when I ran through.
00:13:46
Speaker
no. But, you know, I've been there before. um I just did what it had to be done. I knew the next aid station down on Naranek was only seven ks away. But that also stressed me out bit because it was only 7km away and I didn't know why they weren't there. So my feeling was that they were probably stuck in traffic.
00:14:05
Speaker
And then I was like, shit, how are they going to get all my stuff back to Naranek if they're stuck in traffic? um But anyway, I got there and everyone felt very bad and it was a full Formula One pit stop.
00:14:19
Speaker
um Someone working on every arm and leg and giving me food and yeah, that was quite the experience. Has that ever happened to you before in a race where you've had crew mis miss you? Yeah, it happened at Buffalo as So I was just a little bit too fast for my splits and missed Teague's at Buckland Valley.
00:14:38
Speaker
Yeah, so it's happened plenty of times. Having it already had happened at Buffalo, coming around to this time, did you find that you sort of dealt with it better or any differently? Yeah, I think each time it happened, it to be you know, it actually happened my first ever 100K at UTA as well.
00:14:55
Speaker
My parents came to crew me and they missed me the first one. at that And at that point, it was like 55Ks into the race. So I've had to do it a lot. And I think every time you do it, you know, you panic for a second and then you go, hold on, I've been here before. I know what to do.
00:15:09
Speaker
I'm an ultra runner. This is what we do. We deal with in the variables. So you're just... and Okay, I've got a spare gel. That's fine. It'll get me to the next day station. Grab a banana, whatever.
00:15:20
Speaker
Do you find that you always carry spare nutrition? I guess it goes for both of you guys. Is that something that you you have a backup? Yeah, i would always have at least at least one extra gel. I would say. Yeah. I mean, I would hope to. Yeah.
00:15:34
Speaker
Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I eat it all and then ah it's all gone. But yeah, I think having backup is so important. Yeah. And Kelly, coming into this, said you sort of had a bit more time to to fine tune with Precision. because I think for Buffalo, you'd have been with them for a matter of weeks. So it's yeah very, very new.
00:15:54
Speaker
Aside from the sodium, or essentially that is the only thing, but has anything else changed in your plan for UTA? Um... um Not significantly, except for the adensitron thing. So um at Buffalo, i think I took it too late.
00:16:13
Speaker
So, um you know, I waited until I was really feeling sick. I think probably until after I vomited up Tingo Ridge and then I was like, hey, I've got these, I should probably try one. um Whereas at UTA, the minute that I felt like I didn't want to have another gel, that was the moment where I went, okay, now I need to have one.
00:16:33
Speaker
Um, and I knew that, um, the six foot aid station was coming up and I was, so I was 10 hours into the race and I knew that I really wanted to eat some noodles and like have some proper food at that aid station.
00:16:46
Speaker
And so i was like, no, I just have to do it now. Don't be lazy. Um, and that seemed to do the trick and I, yeah, I was able to eat some good noodles at six foot track and pick up my pace of there.
00:16:58
Speaker
um but But interestingly, I think you're meant to take it like before you even start racing. But that's one thing I'm struggling with because I don't get sick until 10 hours in. So it's like you can't test it out. Yeah.
00:17:10
Speaker
Yeah. So then I picked up my pacer, Sarah Tapp at six foot and um that was just really fun. And I forgot that I was racing for a while. and That's when Jazz passed us and, um,
00:17:24
Speaker
I was like, oh, we probably should be moving a little bit quicker. But, um you know, you've got to find a balance. And I think that was probably what I really needed, um you know, to actually have fun out there with someone. so So that was all good. And, yeah, I had a few low points probably through that section where I wasn't eating as much as I wanted to, but I never vomited, which was like hooray finally. yeah And I was able to eat, you know, get some sandwiches and potatoes and stuff in and – picked up James Barnett as my second pacer and we had a really strong finish and I passed Jazz.
00:18:00
Speaker
Yeah, going down. What is it? That last big, really long percent. Is it Kadamba? Kadamba, yeah. Is that the right? Yeah. yeah And yeah, so earlier in the day, like Meg and I had leapfrogged for a while and she was just so strong. She was amazing to watch. And um think Cecilia passed me somewhere around Tara's ladders area.
00:18:23
Speaker
um And she's we always have a really good battle. She's really good on the technical stuff as well. and So yeah, it was it it was overall it was a really, really positive outcome. were a good step in the right direction. Has it given you more confidence now to approach these longer races going, okay, I feel like I've got a less more, the gut is not going to be the the biggest question mark about whether I can show my fitness.
00:18:46
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think it still needs work, but I think we're we're going in the right direction and yeah, definitely feel less nervous about it. Yeah, well, well on getting a podium at UTA, especially these days when the field's just getting stronger and stronger and stronger. And I said you had Meg Coffey and Cecilia Mattis ahead of you. Cecilia wasn't wasn't too far either and Cecilia's on the team the team with you. it's ah It was great to see that depth of field and yeah another another podium on um the resume as such.
00:19:17
Speaker
Okay, so you guys have both been over in Europe for a while
Training at Hoka Trail Camp
00:19:22
Speaker
now. Ben, as part of his year of fun employment and just exploring, challenging yourself.
00:19:28
Speaker
Kelly, you have been a part of the Hoka trail camp for the last couple of weeks. yeah I am very, very excited to hear about this because that's like my ah kind of trail boy's dream to be on one of those things. So what was it what was it like? have Have you been on one of those camps before?
00:19:47
Speaker
No. And so this was the first time that I got invited ah many years into my career. And apart from all of the races, this was like my main priority for this year. Like I had to, you know, we had to make it happen um yeah because it was just such an amazing opportunity to be able to train with the best athletes in the world.
00:20:05
Speaker
um And I literally was staying and surrounded by the best athletes in the world. So it was a really cool opportunity to, to run with these people and eat with these people and just share stories and yeah it was it was amazing is there anything that you've particularly taken away from the interactions with because you are in with hockey you are sharing the stage with some of the best athletes in the whole world that they do differently or think differently or anything that you're going to sort of change or include into your your training or your or your approach going forward
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not sure. Like it was really interesting having different conversations and just realise, well, not realising, but I guess validating that we are small fish in Australia and it' they just have such different lifestyles. Like when you can make a living out of running, there's not too many people in Australia that have managed to do that.
00:21:00
Speaker
um But, you know, they don't have to work. So their days involve getting up at whatever time they want. going and doing their training and then being able to do all of the recovery things and their strength and you know it's just such a different world to what I live at home and you know maybe you know I'm pretty risk averse so I've never potentially you know wanted to give up my job and you know just go all in on it I think you know for me that I just could never probably do that but eighty it is such a
00:21:36
Speaker
you know, it's so much harder to compete against these people when you have a job and you have children and a mortgage and, you know, all of those other things to worry about. So I also think there's pros to that.
00:21:48
Speaker
um You know, I think it's given me some really good balance over the years and, You know, I've been really lucky with injuries and things because I just ah don't have the capacity to overtrain. um it was It was really nice talking to people like Ludo who has had a full-time job up until last year. Like, ah yeah, it's insane. did realise that. Yeah, yeah he was where I think he might have he had a full-time job most of his career. He might have dropped to part-time last year and then he's just sort of, yeah, it's crazy.
00:22:19
Speaker
Yeah, so it's nice. It's really nice talking to some of those people who've made it work and yeah. yeah Yeah. Aside from the sleep-ins, is there anything that you feel like by, and obviously the extra recovery, but by having to work and
Balancing Work, Family, and Running
00:22:36
Speaker
having a job? And because there's a lot of professional athletes that also have families, but they, yeah, they're workers, they're running.
00:22:44
Speaker
Is there anything that you feel like they are they're able to do with their day to put in that you just physically can't fit the time Yeah. um For some of them, it's more running. For some of them, it's, I guess, you know, when you're playing in big mountains, everything takes so much longer. so you know, the actual time on feet is is generally a lot longer as well.
00:23:03
Speaker
um You know, I guess it's just all the extra one percenters. You know, when we were there, we pretty much got in the sauna every single day. got in the pool every single day because we had access to it and because we had the time.
00:23:15
Speaker
um yeah But it's amazing how much when you do all those things, your time just slips away. Like the day is over like that. um Yeah, it's probably just all of those extra little, all of those extra little things.
00:23:28
Speaker
and And being able to put your feet up in the second half of the day and just, you know, actually relax and yeah. he sounds Sounds like a pretty good good life. But I can see also, I i was just watching a documentary on Andy Buchanan and him saying that life with work is the structure and the routine that he thrives off. And I can see if running was your own your only thing, you didn't especially if you didn't have kids, like for example, if I put myself in that position or Ben, if you put yourself in that position,
00:23:57
Speaker
it's it's it's it's all encompassing which yeah may suit may not yeah yeah I think for me it's you know it's important to have that balance for sure and the the structure Ben like if this we've we've proposed this the last time but if that opportunity did come to you do you think that you would thrive in that sort of environment or do you think you would need something else in your day-to-day Yeah, it's it's a good question because I guess now that I'm not working, I'm trying to simulate the life of a professional because like you know I'm over here and my days are kind of consumed by the training and then what happens after is just leisure.
00:24:36
Speaker
um I think the reason that a lot of these pros can do the mileage that they can is because the rest of their day is just putting the feet up and having the the support and um the situation to, yeah, just not do a lot um and take time off feet. When I was working as a carpenter, I was, you know, doing big laborious days on the tools and then trying to get out for two hours and like my recovery just wasn't there. So I was always fatigued.
00:25:05
Speaker
um Now that I'm over here, you know, I'm able to put in 15 plus hours of running. um I'll tell you what, in these mountains, it doesn't get you very far. exactly um But I can i can do 15 hours of like good, solid time on feet.
00:25:23
Speaker
And then I've got, you know, 15 hours in that week of recovery um to, you know, jump on the foam roller, like all these kind of little things that I've neglected in the past because of life.
00:25:36
Speaker
um I'm finally kind of giving myself the space to do. And yeah, it just means that I'm waking up every day with energy and excitement to kind of go out and and clock more mileage and like do some more serious training again.
00:25:51
Speaker
So yeah, if the opportunity arose, I think I'm in a position right now. um No mortgage, no kids where it would be great, but I'm also on the cusp of going down that avenue and, you know, my relationship is becoming more serious and,
00:26:06
Speaker
So, you know, all of these things have to be considered. um But i I like the idle time now. i am It is wearing a bit thin, like just just sitting around back half of the day and and doing a whole lot of nothing. don't know if it's conducive long term.
00:26:24
Speaker
Yeah. and And you're getting to do that in some beautiful places. The scenery is constantly changing for you because you you are moving around whilst you're over there. You put yourself back in Melbourne yeah and give yourself that time. It's yeah it's it's just an interesting thought process. I figured since you are kind of living that life at the moment, it would be, yeah.
00:26:42
Speaker
Yeah, but I'm not staying at chalets with professional athletes. I'm like sleeping in a tent and then if I'm not in the tent, I'm staying in a hostel in a 10-person dorm with a whole bunch of drunk Australians.
00:26:55
Speaker
You know, it's a different thing. Yeah. yeah No, that's – I think Kelly kind of wins that yeah whole scenario.
00:27:06
Speaker
Totally. Like it really was ridiculous. They looked after us so well. were in these ridiculous chalets. had, you know, a room and an en suite to myself. We had a chef for the first week that was making us breakfast, lunch and dinner.
00:27:20
Speaker
um Yeah, it just, yeah, it was natural. So very, very grateful. Yeah, like the perfect holiday. Everything's cooked for you. You've got the accommodation and all you have to do is go run and then relax.
00:27:32
Speaker
And there's some really awesome people. Yeah. pretty the you know um How many people were on the camp with you? ah There were 40 to start, 40 athletes. Oh, okay. And they they basically tried to get all of the UTMB media stuff out of the way at the camp so that the athletes didn't have to do it race week because I don't know if anyone's been to UTMB, but it's really, really intense. And, ah you know, for some of those pro athletes, it's next level. Like that their diaries just booked up back to back the day before, you know, the days before they're be racing the biggest race in the world. So um i think that was really smart thing for Hoka to do as well.
00:28:13
Speaker
When you guys are going over there, when I think about Europe, a few things, obviously there's the altitude, there's the significance of the climbs and the descents.
European Mountain Training Experience
00:28:23
Speaker
like you I'm sure mean you guys are looking out your window and you've got ah thousand meters just straight up pretty much any direction that you go. And then if the other side of it is like there's different food, different cultures, all of that stuff plays into it.
00:28:36
Speaker
Kelly, know that on the camp you weren't just kind of... cruising around you were doing some pretty pretty big k's how do you feel like you've sort of acclimatized to the mountains over there yeah i feel like it's you know it probably takes a good week to get used to it but the especially coming from as australia you sort of go all in and it's like we've said you can't you can't get anywhere within 10 Ks. So, you know, you're, oh, sorry, that said, said that wrong. You can't get get anywhere within an hour, should I say?
00:29:05
Speaker
Um, yeah you know, you end up spending double, triple the time that you would in Australia, um, just to actually get, <unk> get anywhere exciting. Um, so, you know, you do have really big days. There's so much more hiking, you know, you can't think about your pace as much because it's just, you know, there's so much that you can't run.
00:29:25
Speaker
Um, The altitude is like you feel it for the first little bit, but it becomes, you know, you don't really think about it once you acclimatise after the first week or two. no i don't think it's that that big a deal for where we're like been hanging anyway.
00:29:41
Speaker
Um, most of the time we're staying at around 12 to 1500, I'd say, um, which hopefully we'll notice that when we go back home, but, um, yeah, so now feeling pretty comfortable now. Um, I did go in with a bit of ah a hamstring niggle, um, which was a bit frustrating.
00:29:59
Speaker
Um, I just pinged it at the track a few weeks before I left. um And so had to really manage that. And um the we had physio every day if we wanted it at the camp, which was amazing. But I think...
00:30:14
Speaker
He went a bit overboard the first day and and probably set me back a little bit, stretched it a little bit too far. So that was a little bit frustrating. um But, yeah, I think I've managed it really well and since then and um I've been able to put some significant load in my legs over the last three weeks, um which I'm really happy about. Yeah.
00:30:36
Speaker
Yeah, we'll we'll see what happens in the next few. Yeah. And Ben, likewise for you, you've you've had a slightly different approach. You've taken on some sky running to to get yourself used to the mountains here.
00:30:48
Speaker
how how How was that experience? And like I think that race got over 3,000 meters the top. So you're getting close to it. So yeah how have you found that? Yeah, I think it has been the perfect build inadvertently.
00:31:02
Speaker
Andorra was an interesting spot to visit. ah It was more of a visa grab than anything initially. didn't know much about this tiny country that was kind of wedged between France and Spain.
00:31:14
Speaker
But now that we've kind of seen the whole world's course, I don't think there's a better training ground that I could have put myself in. And, um you know, I spent three weeks of this trip in the beginning in the Dolomites,
00:31:28
Speaker
it's It's not the same, but you know it was a good kind of stepping stone to this, a bit more runnable. um bit more fast moving, not as technical. And I was just kind of, you know, acclimatizing to Europe, trying to wrap my head around where I could get nutrition and kind of get my gear sorted.
00:31:45
Speaker
So by the time I got boots on the ground in Andorra, I felt like I was kind of ready to roll and got pretty humbled by the those mountains. Andorra is a really small country and it basically just consists of really deep valleys.
00:32:02
Speaker
with 1000 meter climbs in every direction. Like there's very little runnable terrain you can do without gaining a lot of vert, which was, ah you know, it was a steep learning curve, but it was probably the perfect learning curve I needed in the build for this and yeah, every day I was just out there trying get my body accustomed to this kind of thing. Uh, there were a lot of growing pains. Like my sacrum was just my sacrum and my lower back were just in absolute agony, um, for the first week, just getting used to how steep and along these climbs are. Cause it's just, it's a far cry from anything I've experienced kind of in the world.
00:32:44
Speaker
Um, And yeah, you know, the body felt it. I freaked out. I thought I had a stress fracture because it was like completely unknown pain. But, you know, i think it was just my body getting used to it. um Even my my shoulders getting used to the amount of poles that, you know, just having to use poles on every single run.
00:33:07
Speaker
But by the time I towed the line at that Skyrace, I was in pretty good shape and I'd fully wrecked the course. um and had an awesome run against some pretty decent athletes. They were predominantly ultra athletes as opposed to sky running athletes, just because in that event, there was kind of a classic sky run, which was up to summit and down. And then I did the 36 K what they called marathon, which was more of a kind of ultra timeframe.
00:33:36
Speaker
ah We all finished over five hours.
Race Course Preferences and Scenic Value
00:33:40
Speaker
But yeah, having seen what we're up against in the world's course, it generally it genuinely feels like we're going to do my sky race and then we're going to have to run 40 k's after it. So yeah.
00:33:53
Speaker
Super cool experience. And just like, there was my first international race, uh, first sky race of that kind. And it was a proper sky race, a lot of ridgeline running, super technical up to about 3000 meters of elevation.
00:34:08
Speaker
ah sorry, ah altitudes three thousand metres altitude yeah about three thousand three hundred meterss of gain. So yeah I mean, it's all boded really well. And it was just nice to know that I can hang here at the top end with some of these runners.
00:34:22
Speaker
Yeah, and you very much did hang there because you came second. So it's, it's ah yeah, that's a very impressive range that you're sort of developing for yourself on a variety of terrain and and really cementing your capacity as this marathon 50k up to towards 100 miles. Now it's kind of really...
00:34:39
Speaker
really coming into range you you've done a lot of different distances now there something that you do find that you enjoy more from a time or training perspective i mean if we're talking terrain i love the technical dance i love going out there and playing on that stuff and i like moving on it and seeing people struggle with it because it just you know it gives me this kind of confidence um thanks ben yeah i don't know i just like ah i like a course that makes sense um it doesn't it doesn't really matter the distance uh you know i've i've been kind of plotting distances tactically throughout the year so i'm not burning too many matches in the build to a race you know like that was 36k it felt like a pretty good kind of stepping stone towards the 80k race at worlds um
00:35:30
Speaker
But more than anything, yeah, I'm just looking for a course that makes sense as a loop or, you know, takes in the most scenic part of a region.
00:35:40
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not out there to just clock Ks for the sake of it. I want it to to be valuable and I want to be out there enjoying the highlight package of wherever I am.
00:35:51
Speaker
Does that ring similar for you, Kelly? Or you find you're you're drawn to races for other other reasons? No, I've always been drawn to races generally because there's somewhere fun that I want to go or somewhere beautiful that I want to go. um Yeah, we've spoken about this a little bit.
00:36:09
Speaker
um I've never been strategic about my race selection, really ever. um But interestingly, as the sport is growing in Australia and getting more competitive, it's something that we do actually need to start thinking about. So, yeah, it's it's been an interesting topic of conversation, I guess.
00:36:26
Speaker
But I prefer to just go and go, yeah, that place looks really cool. Let's go race it there. So moving ourselves, but one of the main reasons I've been catching up with you guys, which has been very interesting and you've had some very fun last couple of months since we since we spoke.
Challenges of the World's Course
00:36:40
Speaker
The course itself, you've just finished a four-day recce of. Kelly, this is your seventh time, you were saying offline before, in some iteration of being on a world's team.
00:36:53
Speaker
Having now seen this course, how how does it stack up against those other ones? This is next level. And um just like Ben was talking about courses that make sense, half of this race does not make sense.
00:37:07
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. So well i guess we're going to talk about it section by section, but there's a fair chunk of course that is completely off trail when there are nice trails.
00:37:20
Speaker
um And, you know, following the map, it just doesn't go in places you would, predict that it would go um it's completely bonkers okay um so that's interesting because looking at i've got i've got the map and then your guys runs up and the whole thing that it doesn't look like it's got really random stuff so it's going to be really interesting to hear um before we dive into to day one i'm also ben this is your first time on the world's team what and I just spoke to um Hannah McRae back when she got the news and she was just like at Christmas time essentially for her for her first team.
00:37:59
Speaker
what What was it like for you to get that call or email, however it was, and said, yep, you're on you've got a spot? ah Honestly, it was the most the timing was awful.
00:38:10
Speaker
And thinkk i can speak um yeah i think can speak on behalf of yeah a lot of the people who were running UTA. Obviously, i was out in Alice at Westmax.
00:38:21
Speaker
um I'd been offline for four days and I had an email kind of sitting in my... In my message box, and I was shaking like mad going, do i look at this now? Because the next day I was going to race 128 Ks.
00:38:37
Speaker
um i was just going, do I look at it now? If it's bad news, I'm going to spend my entire day tomorrow just... in my own head about, you know, why I didn't make the team. And if it goes well, then all of a sudden there's this pressure to perform because now, you know, I've been selected and I've got to be a world-class athlete.
00:38:58
Speaker
um I decided not to. and then three hours later, I decided to to look at the email. And honestly, thank God it was good news because that could have really, yeah, I think it if it was bad, it could have really ruined my day.
00:39:14
Speaker
yeah And I bawled my eyes out. I hugged my partner. It was amazing. I was just like, you know, it it just kind of confirmed the whole year that I'd had and where I'd gone and kind of what I was doing. And it was really nice to see that recognized.
00:39:30
Speaker
um Yeah. Especially given I was coming over to Europe regardless, you know, I kind of... it gave me ah a purpose and a structure while i was over here to kind of work towards something so yeah it was it was really cool and i'm so happy to be a part of this team and uh yeah i'm just trying to put my best foot forward so we can kind of build the blocks moving forward for future teams to come here and hopefully have some support and just show the value of what this this country can do and what this team can do. Very well very well said. I think that's the, yeah from from from my side, definitely it's seeing you guys put Australia best foot forward, not necessarily from performance, I obviously we want you to do as well as possible, but
00:40:14
Speaker
seeing what the world is becoming and it kind of feels like it is starting to actually become the world championships in people's eyes not so much UTMB and it's yeah being able to go yeahp Australia is is is here good people working hard and hopefully putting in the performances as as well but yeah as long as it's kind of going out there and and showing ourselves off in a positive light i think that's that's great it Yes, when the news came, we were all in and UTA.
00:40:42
Speaker
You have to always assume there's a reason why they do something at a certain time, and you hope so. But I know that there's a lot of people with good news and bad news and some fires lit up other people's backsides um to show off why why they should be where they weren't. But I am glad that it was good news for you, Ben. Obviously, having just interviewed you, very much rooting for you.
00:41:03
Speaker
i think we can all see why that was a good decision. Yeah. Okay. let's Let's just hope next time they bring their room a little bit better. yeah Yeah. yeah yeah there's always room for improvements always mistakes made that you can learn lessons from um so yes all righty let's move on to day one um who would like to kick us off with the first 14k then we should start this one off we have we have very different kind of takes on on this course and i think it'll be good dynamic to kind of hear from both of us because maybe
00:41:39
Speaker
somewhere in the middle there is some sense. And hopefully I won't scare people too much. Ben wanted me to really think long and hard before I opened my mouth. Um, yeah. So, um, so I'd gotten a few good tips from, particularly from Francesco Puppy, um, with a complete rundown on the course and how they tackled a recce of it.
00:42:05
Speaker
Um, they broke it up into three sections. Um, It was very remote, so there was only two road crossings, I think, so they're based it around that. um and Ben and I have a car, but we don't really have anyone to shuffle that car.
00:42:19
Speaker
um And so we tried to figure out a way that we could do it, um getting around and using whatever other transport was available. um So going into day one, I'd just come off the back of two weeks of probably the biggest training of my life. So I didn't really feel like jumping into a really, really big day. So we figured out a way to make the first day little bit shorter.
00:42:41
Speaker
So we did from the start um to the 15K mark and then we dropped down um what is essentially the short course up. So we dropped down this big back trail to get back to the start. So it ended up being about 20Ks.
00:42:56
Speaker
So you start um at Canfrank Station, which is this ridiculous fancy schmick building in the middle of no like in the middle of the town that doesn't match with anything else. It's like it's wild.
00:43:15
Speaker
um And it's a really fast start down the main road. um so I think people are going to have to be a bit cautious there because the first like K and a half maybe is all on the road and and quite fast. And then you jump across the river and jump onto this nice sort of forest trail um before you start climbing.
00:43:34
Speaker
um And that the... I'm trying think. like quite steep for a while, just switchbacky. With the switchbacks, it's kind of runnable. It's not too bad. But then when you get up the top of that, it starts getting a bit more technical and sort of douche grade, but just kind of awkward.
00:43:53
Speaker
um But fine. And you turn off before this big lake onto ah an old road um and there's quite significant rockfall on that road. Some of it looks like it's been there a long time. Some of it looks a bit more fresh.
00:44:08
Speaker
um Some of it you have to literally climb over these massive boulders. so um So the it's a nice gradient. It's runnable. It's just a little bit awkward underfoot because there's lots of loose rocks.
00:44:19
Speaker
um And then, yeah, from there, then then we descended on the on the what's not our course. But that was like it gave us a good intro. We realised it was quite barren. there's not you know It was hot and dry. There's no water out there.
00:44:35
Speaker
it gave us a really good lead in for what was to come. Yeah, and I think you get up above the tree line probably by about seven or eight kilometres, probably eight k's into the course.
00:44:46
Speaker
And once you're up there, you are heavily exposed and ah it's probably not until at least the 50k mark that you get any form of tree tree cover again. yeah.
00:45:00
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Yeah. And, you know, there is there's water on course. There's not a lot now because it is so so dry at the moment. Hopefully that'll pick up. But unfortunately, with a lot of these water sources, um there's just livestock everywhere. So it's not necessarily the kind of thing you can trust.
00:45:18
Speaker
But in that on that first day, there was no water at all. so Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I guess you pop up above the tree line about eight kilometres and and don't really return to any sort of coverage until probably the 50k
Planning for Exposed and Technical Course
00:45:34
Speaker
mark. So a lot of this course is quite exposed ah and not a lot of it takes place beneath the tree line. once you're up in that kind of alpine region,
00:45:45
Speaker
But yeah, you just you're at the mercy of the sun if it's there. And and we definitely have been as well. The descent that you guys took on that first day, which is the climb for the short course, just considering that that we're here.
00:45:58
Speaker
If you were to flip the direction and have to go up, it is there anything that you would say aside from the fact that it's a VK to note on that on that descent or that climb for them? So we did it the next day. That was how we got back up to the fifteen k mark of our course. Okay. All right.
00:46:11
Speaker
Well, let's just jump onto that then. So it's just really long switchbacky. So switchbacks, it goes up alongside this pipeline track. um It's kind of runnable at the start and then gets a a little bit more techy, but it's it's not too bad.
00:46:28
Speaker
Yeah, I can imagine if if you're accustomed to running in these things, like there will probably be people in that short course who run the whole length of that. Once you um ah you get up about 800 meters in elevation, then it starts to get a little bit more technical.
00:46:45
Speaker
And as you climb to the peak of La Moleta, which is the high point of both our courses, I believe, it's about 2,570 meters, then...
00:46:56
Speaker
then then it gets more scrambly and a little bit ah more disjointed. And yeah, I mean, Kelly can speak about how she was feeling on that section. Yeah, so so once we got back onto our course and we start the climb up, it starts on a nice trail and then it gets rockier and rockier and then the trail just sort of disappears.
00:47:15
Speaker
And so we were trying to just follow the route on our on our watches. um but there's no visible sign of a clear trail. or Ben sort of found one, but it was going nowhere near the map was indicating. So yeah end up just going whichever way up you can. And it got to the point where I was literally just on all fours, crawling up the side of this mountain, feeling very unsafe. um Yeah, I was completely out of my comfort zone, to be honest. And Tegan has put me into some...
00:47:46
Speaker
Pretty interesting situations over the years, but, um yeah, this was a bit next level for me. So I don't want to scare people, but want people to be prepared but to be a little bit uncomfortable. And it's going to be interesting to see how it's marked and where they exactly take us. But otherwise, it's just this scramble to the top of this rock face.
00:48:08
Speaker
Yeah, it really is the kind of thing that you need to be free for. When I was out there, it wouldn't hurt to actually do some bouldering and stuff like just to get comfortable like holding things. It's interesting because we're not talking about the Skyrunning World Cup here the World Championships. We are talking about trail running. Like do do you feel like this course is pushing the boundaries of what a trail running championship should be where we're sort of maybe preferencing other skill sets over your trail running capacity?
00:48:40
Speaker
Yes, 100%. Like after doing that day, i was like, how is this a world champs race in trail running? to To be honest, I was like, this makes no sense.
00:48:51
Speaker
After the 40K mark, it made a lot more sense. But this particular day yeah. Yeah, I mean, this it's funny because it it was shocking to me that there was so much off-trail and scrambling stuff, especially considering this is a world champs. And I just expected, I guess,
00:49:09
Speaker
to experience more graded trail, um probably have a little bit more ah road access, like just just thinking about going get aid in here or if things go wrong for some people.
00:49:20
Speaker
ah Mind you you know this this course really suits me as someone who isn't um who doesn't come from a running background um and who has been kind of like spending the last couple of months just hiking and getting used to this terrain. Like I was out on course going, okay, this is good. You know, this isn't, this isn't going to suit a lot of those elite level runners.
00:49:44
Speaker
In fact, I think it'll kind of spook a lot of them. And I think if, if you haven't seen this course and you're just basing your perception purely off the metrics, then,
00:49:57
Speaker
It's going to shock you to kind of be out there and be on what looks like decent runnable grade and be completely stuck in the mud in terms of just, you know, kind of having a high stuff that is 5%, 10% because what's beneath your feet is is really technical and tough to run.
00:50:17
Speaker
Listening to Francesco sort of summarise the course, he was like, yeah, you run for a few k's at the start and then you don't run till 40 And coming from him, that was like, oh, okay, what are we actually in for here?
00:50:30
Speaker
Okay. Advice to everyone who's over here still in Australia, kind of preparing themselves for this. It doesn't sound like from a getting out and running perspective, there's much for you can really do because you can't mimic that kind of thing. But is there anything that you you think someone could be doing, whether it is going bouldering or like just something from a mindset perspective to prepare themselves what they're going to be doing? Yeah, I think um looking for just technical stuff in your area. um Obviously, it's it's hard to tell people in Australia to go and do 1000 meter long climbs.
00:51:05
Speaker
ah There are a lot of long, steep climbs in this. I think it's hard to mimic that off hill reps. It's just using one muscle group for so long. And So if you can find climb that takes you more than 500 meters up ah plus and just kind of keep simulating that, then great.
00:51:27
Speaker
I would do some off trail-y stuff, especially for this section. Like, look, we did this day two section and basically went, okay, this isn't a running race. um Go and spend you know your days just doing long hikes on feet. Yeah.
00:51:43
Speaker
But I will say that later in the course, there is opportunities to be a runner and let your legs fly. i think it's just being able to survive the the hiking stuff and the steep stuff and then arrive at that kind of 40K mark, feeling fresh and energized enough to then, you know, let your legs loose.
00:52:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's going to be getting just getting through that bit and and accepting like not getting frustrated it's going to be really easy for people to get frustrated and for their mood to get low in that section and it's knowing that once you get to 40k it gets better yeah so guess yeah we've only really spoken up until the letter which was at the very start so it's like the first and maybe we're at about twenty k mark right now yeah yeah so then you just say you go just end off that yeah so you you and we're into our second day of wrecking now so just so everyone kind of knows where we're at but at about
00:52:38
Speaker
the 20k mark at lamoleta peak um you descend on some very technical stuff incredibly beautiful past um alpine lakes but what's happening beneath your feet is nothing but kind of loose uh rock some roots And that descent lasts for probably half an hour. You get the bottom and you're in a valley.
00:53:01
Speaker
shouldn't We think there's an aid station at the bottom. it Yeah. And you start ascending up a valley ah that follows ah river. Now, by this point, you'd really you'd probably really want to dip into the water and maybe have a drink from it. It's just what's really painful about these a lot of these river sources is... um They're just full of livestock and there's crap everywhere and it's not the kind of thing that you can drink.
00:53:28
Speaker
um And this area is really exposed and if you're hot, um you're probably just going to want to make sure that you take a lot of water out of these aid stations.
00:53:40
Speaker
So just to indicate, we took two and a half litres each for this day um and used everything. every drop of it yeah um the trail from there like it looks like it should follow the river but it just doesn't and there's no trail and it keeps it's just it was really hard to navigate um and it's just really awkward underfoot it was just the yeah it was a really interesting valley that just didn't didn't make much sense of where they took us yeah Yeah, for comparison to something that exists in Australia, if if you've been up in the high country and experienced those kind of rutted out trails that have just been absolutely trodden in for years and years, it's like that. It's kind of person width at points and just like really ankle rolly.
00:54:27
Speaker
It's the kind of stuff that you just you want to run next to it. but you're running through kind of grass that's divoted and so... And then it loses that trail and goes to the next one and then, like, it just joins all these other ones and just... It's hard to describe without being there.
00:54:43
Speaker
um But then you get to the top of the valley and then you sort of traverse up this mountain um to a... um like a ski lift and you think that that's going to be the top and then it takes you onto this ridge line and traversing the side even higher and you're like where is the trail there's no trail you have no idea where they're taking you and then it just goes up through this pass and um That one was probably worse than Maletta for me. i did freak out a little bit.
00:55:18
Speaker
I just got stung by some sort of plant as I'm freaking out, holding onto this the side of this mountain. um It was very loose. There's not a lot of good handholds. um strongly suggest putting your poles away for that.
00:55:32
Speaker
um And it does concern me a bit with rock fall and things because if there's people above you, you like there's gonna be rocks falling on your head. um Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see how they manage that section. I was going through Strava and just looking at the kind of 600 meter turn back along yourself and then obviously realize you are on the right track and keep going forward. yeah yes And just comparing like comparing your line to what Strava is indicating is where the path should be. like
00:56:04
Speaker
the yeah you're nowhere near it and assuming that's because that just does not exist which is so often the case unfortunately with these things it's when when i think of european trails i do not think a single thing of what you have just described and i'm sure that that you've sort of been giving it giving everybody a heads up on on the team already about this but in my mind i'm picturing the stuff you find around right around utmb which is pretty buffed out might get a bit brooky a bit rocky places but it's it's pretty it's pretty good it's is definitely an interesting take it can be is a full road race yeah okay so that kind takes us to like you finished day two by the looks for at the top of a ski resort and took the lift down no we're nowhere two we're nowhere near finish day two
00:56:50
Speaker
Oh, okay. Okay. Oh, I've got ahead of myself. There's still a bit, there's still a bit here. Yeah. But the story is kind of similar throughout. Like you're basically, um, going over passes, very technical and then running down. Then you go up another valley, um,
00:57:08
Speaker
Quite technical too. The next valley was really nice though. It was like a river and it was actually, yeah, was pretty. Yeah. But I think on this day, we we kind of looked at it and we went of the 30-ish k's that we did, not all of which were on course, but we probably ran 4k were able to let the legs loose for 4k's of what you would call running.
00:57:30
Speaker
You're basically in hiking mode the whole time. ah The poles were out for the majority of the day. And yeah. the The last bit is is pretty spectacular. Like you're on these insane ridgelines with like sheer cliff face next to you There was a couple, there was one time when I called Ben back because I lost the trail and I was like, surely we're not going up over this peak.
00:57:55
Speaker
Cause I'd followed the trail around and then realized I was completely off track on my map. So Ben, Ben came back for me and it was over the peak that it was ridiculous. Um,
00:58:07
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm going to try and get a bit more comfortable with that stuff. But um we eventually found our our cable car and got the cable car back down to where we're staying. Yeah, I think if you've watched some of these spectacular sky running highlight package videos in the past of ridgeline running, like there was there was kind of a lot of that um stuff on hands and feet, rocky, shaley, loose, super steep and like epic ridgeline running. So it is visually it's a spectacular course. Like at every high point, you have phenomenal views of jagged peaks in the distance looking over into France and
00:58:44
Speaker
we We do wonder what their backup plan will be if the weather is bad um because there were storms in the afternoon on both days that we were up there.
00:58:55
Speaker
um we also ran into Katie Scheid who said she was getting very close to the lightning, like her arms were buzzing from her poles. because she did get stuck in that storm up there. So it doesn't seem to be any way around these pigs. So yeah, hopefully the weather is good. i don't know what they're going to do if it's not. At what point or how much more extreme does this, does a course have to be for you, for for one of you guys and probably more so Kelly, because Ben, you've said that like technical is your thing.
00:59:24
Speaker
Do you go, ah it's just not like, i'm i'm I'm not happy with being out there. This is just not going to be conducive to me having a day that's, that's going to be anything about performance. It's going to be about survival. Yeah, I was, look, I was definitely feeling a bit low after that day.
00:59:37
Speaker
Like, you know, it took us seven and a half hours to cover 31 K, which sounds ridiculous. And like, yeah I had notoriously take my recce is pretty slow. I like to take everything in and get a good understanding of where everything is. And I like to take photos. And so, you know, we weren't, we weren't particularly trying to push.
00:59:56
Speaker
or anything and i definitely made ben really slow um but yeah putting that into like this is ridiculous you know so i was yeah i was and there were just times was like should we be wearing a helmet like this is just for me this is so extreme and i've you know i've done a lot of different races around the world but this is yeah so i was i was kind of shocked and and my mood was a bit low because of that exact thing um Which is why when we went into day three, like it was actually, it was so nice, the start of it. And, um and I actually had a smile on my face the whole day. And it was like, I really needed that.
01:00:34
Speaker
Yeah, because looking at your stats, Ben, day three, 25K, three, like elapsed time, 350, moving time, three hours. So that's a much nicer, more typical average pace for a day and day day in the mountains.
01:00:48
Speaker
Exactly. That's that's when it felt a lot more like a trail run. Yeah. As soon as we, and this day kind of started by heading straight over the border into France,
01:00:59
Speaker
ah I don't know why it was such a stark contrast. Maybe they've just got more money going into their trail. um Every time we swapped into the different country, we're like, oh, France has money. It's much nicer.
01:01:12
Speaker
There's more people here. Every time I went to the side, it was like dull and like, what's here? Yeah. And the just the trail grading was a lot nicer. it was a lot more predictable underfoot. Yeah.
01:01:25
Speaker
A lot more people hiking on that side of town and a lot more refugios. So, yeah it just it just made for a much more comfortable day knowing that we were closer to civilization, that the trails were in good shape, ah the passes were quite straightforward.
01:01:40
Speaker
And, yeah, I think, I mean, I noticed it on Kel's face. She was like right back in her element, just kind of loving, letting the legs loose again and feeling comfortable and confident. It was like just a completely different trail. It was such a stark contrast. When you guys look back to day three, is there anything about that that day, that part of the trail that you think is worth like giving specific attention to, or it's just kind of, it's a normal mountain day?
01:02:06
Speaker
It was a normal mountain day, i think. Yeah. And i I don't think there were any climbs or descents kind of longer than maybe 300 metres um of elevation gain or loss. So it is stuff that Aussies will be kind of familiar with doing.
01:02:21
Speaker
ah It was, you know. It was a really long descent and that was just really nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Lovely. And in terms of coming back into the tree line, it looks like you do drop back in during this section of the course.
01:02:36
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Yeah. Okay. And that was that was really nice and a bit of a relief. this I mean, you know, we're we're talking about kind of those kind of pine plantation. I don't know if it was necessarily pine plantation, but like picture kind of pine plantation with just that kind of the needles on the ground. Yeah, it's really, really nice.
01:02:56
Speaker
So, yeah, that will be a relief ah come race day because I imagine a lot of people will be hitting that kind of in the middle heat of the day. it'll be, yeah, it'll be nice.
01:03:08
Speaker
And then final section, which I think this also shares the same the exact same route with the short course. This would be a good bit for for people doing the short and and the long. everyone Yeah, we were wondering that. Yeah, was just kind of comparing the two before the call pretty sure it's the same. um how How was this day? Yeah. It was a bit of a mix, I think.
01:03:25
Speaker
I think it was a mix. and And we entered this day feeling pretty fatigued after three pretty big days on feet, which is probably good to simulate how we'll be feeling at the end of the race. Um, I thought this, this section was spectacular in terms of views. yeah It was so stunning. You're getting eyes on like the big peaks of the kind of Spanish side Can Frank region.
01:03:48
Speaker
Um, Pico Aspi is just this wicked spire that you're kind of always circling around through this section. And yeah, it's kind of made up of two relatively big ascents and two relatively big descents, some technical and some more runnable.
01:04:10
Speaker
But yeah, what did you think? oh Yeah, like some of it, like ah like I was pretty tired by then. um It was still pretty, it was quite technical, I'd say. and There were a few chains up and things up some of the rock faces.
01:04:23
Speaker
um And then, yeah, some of the one at the middle descent is a bit annoying. It's kind of like there's kind of a trail in places and they take you like straight down instead of following the trail.
01:04:35
Speaker
um But it wasn't too bad. It was just, you know, keep hiking and run when you can. and um But, yeah, like the views that were amazing. And then you get to the the final peak and then it's 7Ks of switchbacks. We think Francesco tells me it was there's like 120-something switchbacks.
01:04:55
Speaker
So just a really long descent. um It starts off quite technical and on this sort of old wall um and it would be very frustrating if that was the whole thing, but it actually turned into a nice pine forest again and there was some really nice running towards the end of it.
01:05:10
Speaker
Yeah, I can imagine ah lot of people getting to this section and there actually being some some changing of positioning through this last kind of final climb. The climb is really steep out of ah out of ah ah the second last valley, I guess. The final climb is tough and you're really going to want to dig your poles in. So for those who have energy to move at this point and stay consistent, like you could start leapfrogging if you have the gas, ah because I imagine on tired legs descending on that final section is going to be really tough.
01:05:46
Speaker
ah yeah You think you're moving faster than you look down at your watch and you're like, oh, that's disappointing. For the short course, I feel like there probably are some people are umming and ahhing, poles, no poles.
01:06:01
Speaker
Obviously, you guys haven't seen that much of the course, but just knowing the region now, if you were doing it, do you reckon you would be at poles 100%? I personally would. Yeah, I think that's me. Yeah. I think probably.
01:06:13
Speaker
But you sort of, it helps to know when to put them away as well, because if it gets too scrambly, they're just getting away. um But it, you know, it's hard to know that if they don't see the course. So, but yeah, I think that would be helpful.
01:06:25
Speaker
Yeah. There's so much hiking that, yeah, I think it's... But also, you know, we're ultra runners and we're kind of used to whipping out the poles and being more comfortable with them. I i wouldn't suggest like picking up a pair of poles if you're not accustomed to them now.
01:06:40
Speaker
if youre If you like to be lighter, if you if you like just having your hands free, that's a huge benefit. I wouldn't i wouldn't change that. The one thing is, um I guess, for all of us, just fueling this race is going to be so important.
01:06:57
Speaker
and ah Learning to get comfortable eating while you have your hands full is is quite important to to learn because i think a lot of um lot of people will try and be light and not take enough.
01:07:12
Speaker
And if you don't have energy and happiness through this race, ah you could find yourself really low. Yeah. There's only two manned aid stations in the whole long course, which is we think is kind of crap um because it's going to be a long day out there.
01:07:28
Speaker
You just need to plan around that if you're using your own tool. Definitely. Definitely. as it so as as in that there are other aid stations, just those are the only two where you can have physical aid, some of that crew there. And you kind of already answered this this bit. Yeah.
01:07:41
Speaker
And taking away from having seen this whole course, Kelly, is there anything that you you go okay, this is this is going to be the crux for me. Like I need to execute this to be able to have the best day possible. Yeah, I think for me, it's just getting past that 40K mark. As long as I can hang in there till then, then it'll be great.
01:08:00
Speaker
um But it's just, yeah, trying to stay positive and not get frustrated through those bits. um One of the things that we've been talking about is um the cutoff times. um And I think this is ah an important discussion point.
01:08:13
Speaker
um In Innsbruck, only 50% of the women's field finished in the long course.
Concerns Over Cutoff Times for Women
01:08:20
Speaker
Now, not all of that is attributable to cutoffs, but I believe a significant amount was um and compared to like 25% for the men.
01:08:29
Speaker
So it's ah it was a 15-hour cutoff. Looking at this, this is also a 15-hour cutoff. But this is a completely different race. This is going to be so much more challenging.
01:08:41
Speaker
So I've actually brought this up with the pro trail runners, with the particularly with the women's equality group, and they're going to be looking into it because, you know, we want to make this a positive experience for the sport as a whole. And I think if, you know, if...
01:08:57
Speaker
50% of the women's field of the best in their country are not able to finish. That's just so disappointing and and not good for the sport. So I'm really hoping that they reconsider those cutoff times because I think 15 hours is going to be really, really challenging for some people.
01:09:13
Speaker
Gosh, when you're talking about an ATK that you're like, I think 15 hours is going to be a push, it really puts it into perspective what the challenge of this course is going to be. oh it sounds It sounds ridiculous. It really it really does. um But, you know, I know we had some Aussies that didn't finish and, you know, there's plenty of other nations that are not going to be comfortable in this terrain. And I just, you know, apparently there were whole teams that didn't finish in Innsbruck and that's not what want what we want.
01:09:40
Speaker
No, there's nothing there's nothing beneficial about that for the sport at all. Okay. um Kelly, you you are not done for the season before before this race.
01:09:52
Speaker
We're kind of moving on from Canfrank. Obviously, we've got about six weeks, I think, until the race now. You're heading across to OCC. How are you feeling for the roads of UTMB trails?
01:10:05
Speaker
It's going to feel like a breeze. um Yeah, um I guess it's important to say, just to point out that, you know, the world's team were advised that we weren't or allowed to run anything at UTMB.
01:10:20
Speaker
And um this opportunity came up to to be at the camp um and and be in Europe for a significant amount of time before OCC. And so...
01:10:31
Speaker
I um ah managed to get an exemption with the support of my coach and Athletics Australia. I just want to highlight that you know everything is above board and I've gone about it the right way. And um I think that being here and you know being at altitude, having the training with Hoka and then being able to recce the course like everything is just going to contribute to a better outcome for Worlds. So I'm really lucky that I've had that opportunity and i really thankful to my husband and family back home for for holding the fort. um
01:11:03
Speaker
You know, this is the longest I've ever been away from them and it's, you know, it's pretty hard. Yeah, so going into OCC, um this is going to be a nice little tune-up race, really.
01:11:14
Speaker
um You know, I would always do a shorter race leading into a longer one, and the the timing for me was was perfect. um So I'm not sure how competitive I'm going to be. i don't see it, you know, i don't see myself as competitive in this distance in Europe, you know, at home I can be competitive at this distance, but um there's a lot of fast people over here. So I really have no idea how I was stuck up, but I'm just using it as a, you know, a nice chance to to have a good hit out in in the Alps. And um OCC was my first ever European race, um maybe.
01:11:51
Speaker
maybe 10 years ago. um And, you know, it was such an amazing experience back then. And I remember looking down at my watch and i was going so slow that there was no pace even registered.
01:12:04
Speaker
And I was just like, what is this? This isn't running. This is a whole new world. And, you know, i haven't looked back since then. So it's nice to sort of go back to my roots and and see where I'm at now. Very excited to see how how you go. I know we should we just watched um Katie Scheid come third at Sierra Zanelle so apparently you can translate 100 mile fitness into basically marathon style fitness. It works right?
01:12:25
Speaker
ah We're all like Katie Scheid. We've been out on the course and the last two days. I shared a few meters and Ben got to share a few more K's in that. She's incredible. Yeah, it's amazing. she ah She must have been like two days removed or three days removed from Sierra Zanale and had seemingly already seen the entire Can Frank course.
01:12:46
Speaker
And was going to do it more of it again. Wow. wow So, I mean, logistically, it doesn't really make sense. But even just like covering that amount of mileage after you know putting on a performance like that is pretty amazing. So it was it's cool to be here on the ground.
01:13:02
Speaker
um There's a bunch of pro athletes out here now. i know the... ah french The French team's here, the British team's here. yeah There's a bunch of people getting eyes on the course. So it's a really cool time to be here soaking it in. I mean, especially from my perspective as someone who kind of hasn't had this level of exposure to to the pro scene, I'm really lapping it up.
01:13:25
Speaker
And also like highlighting that it feels like um there's a lot of people ah really going all in at Worlds this year. And i don't feel like people have been that dedicated to the cause in the past. So it's really nice to see some really high-level athletes actually um taking this really seriously and um and being here at this event.
01:13:51
Speaker
um You know, at the Hoka camp, probably 80%, 90% of athletes running um at UTMB are also going to be doing Worlds and taking it pretty seriously. So...
01:14:01
Speaker
um Yeah, it's exciting. It's really exciting for the sport. I feel like it's it's a good step in the right direction. Following a lot of the US commentary on Worlds and how they're viewing it the team, it does seem to be a marked difference, even from just Thailand through Austria and now into Spain, at how people are prioritising it as part of the season and they actually care about getting onto it. An application isn't a guarantee anymore. it's ah You have to really prove yourself. um it's yeah from ah From a spectator's perspective that also understands the fact that these are the best of the sport, it's great because you want the World Championships to be the World Championships.
01:14:36
Speaker
So it's, ah yes, not now they just have to kind of keep the terrain fair and skewed. That would be nice. But Ben, for yourself, what's the next six weeks look like?
01:14:48
Speaker
ah So next week I'm running Grand Raid to Pyrenees 40k. um It's a so world major event and the they have two 40k distances.
01:14:59
Speaker
um The one with less vert is... what would they call that part of the the world series? ah Anyway, I'm not doing that. I'm doing the one with the Morvert just to kind of simulate and and get, I guess, one final kind of race environment in before worlds ah to test all my gear out, to kind of, you know, just make sure that everything feels comfortable, and not treating it so much as a race, just looking for an opportunity to kind of be in that environment again.
01:15:31
Speaker
And then, Yeah, I'm traveling around. I'm spending some time in Switzerland, ah and then coming down to Font-Rameau in the two weeks before Worlds, uh, to spend some time with the team and get some good training in. So I guess the idea of being on the ground now in Canfranc is just to know what I'm in for and now get a little bit more specific with the training.
01:15:54
Speaker
Uh, feel like a bit more of a runner again and and get that fitness up because I feel like after being in Andorra and being here, i I've felt a bit stuck in the mud, which is great exposure.
01:16:06
Speaker
um But yeah, I think my pointy end's a bit blunt and it'd be nice to sharpen it. Well, you've definitely put in the ah put in the training to give yourselves the best possible chance. Before we sign off, is there any other messages to the team or just general thoughts you guys guys have at the moment?
01:16:23
Speaker
we're just really both excited to be part of the kind of a really strong team and um you know for most people it's yeah the chance to represent your country is is, you know, a massive honor, but to do it with ah with a really strong team of people as well as is going to be really special. So we're looking forward to everyone getting over here and saying seeing the course and having a good crack at it.
01:16:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think from my end, um you know, I just want to see everyone here and healthy and happy and ready to go. So just please, ever everyone, take care of yourself. um Don't do anything crazy.
01:16:59
Speaker
Just make sure you're here so we can, you know, put our best foot forward and yeah let's go to go to war perfect all right i reckon that's that's where where we leave it let's go to war kelly ben thank you so much for the time it's been great to hear about the course and catch up up to now have a fun next six weeks good luck at both your races and we'll uh we'll catch you either before probably just after the race thanks james thank you