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Andrew Gaskell: WMTRC Pre-Race Interview
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Tasmanian trail runner Andrew Gaskell has one of the most remarkable backstories in the sport. In this episode, he shares how football and a bucket-list marathon led him to ultras, why the trails of kunanyi/Mt Wellington feel like home, and his rise onto the Australian World Championships team.
We also revisit his extraordinary 2016 survival ordeal in the jungles of Borneo, the lessons it taught him, and how he continues to thrive on some of the toughest terrain in the country. Tune in to hear the full story.
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Thanks for tuning in to Peak Pursuits! Connect with us on Instagram @peakpursuits.pod to share your thoughts, questions, and trail stories. Until next time, keep hitting the trails and chasing those peak pursuits!
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Transcript
Introduction & Guest Background
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Peepershoots podcast. My name is James Sieber and today we're continuing the World Championships conversations with Andrew Gaskell, who's representing in the long trail team for his second time at a World Championships, previously representing in the long trail also in Austria back in 2023. Today's conversation is quite an unexpected one with a significant story in Andrew's past back in 2016 that led to him stranded for 13 days alone in the jungle.
00:00:44
Speaker
From there, his love for the outdoors was never constricted and after a brief spell on the roads, he found himself on the trails of Tasmania, constantly racking up podiums and increasingly impressive performances that have led to this stage that he's now finding himself on.
00:00:59
Speaker
Andrew Andrew, welcome to the and so i hope that you find the same with that let's get to the conversation with andrew gaskell andrew welcome to the peepscs podcast how are you going thanks james yeah i'm well i'm well thank you I appreciate you
Andrew's Unique Story & Early Interest in Running
00:01:21
Speaker
jumping on to do this. I was saying just offline, normally when do a podcast, I get a chance to research people.
00:01:27
Speaker
Obviously, with social media, everything's everywhere now and people are very open often on it. But for yourself, this is a bit more unique because Nostrava, Instagram, Facebook. So I'm really, really curious to hear more about you because for once, I genuinely know nearly nothing apart from your race results. So it's going to be a ah very interesting conversation.
00:01:48
Speaker
On that, and I'm assuming most people listening, unless they know you personally, will be in the same boat for this. Can you give me a little bit background about yourself and what you've been up to and what's led to you finding trail running?
00:02:00
Speaker
Yeah, sure. um So guess if we go well, right back um to the start. ah i I was okay at running I suppose in primary school. I made a few cross-country teams and and the like.
00:02:18
Speaker
um always Always sort of tended towards the longer the longer distance running. um Yeah, ah I was a bit slow for the 100m, 200m dash sort of thing. But um yeah, I made a few cross country teams through ah primary school and through high school.
00:02:38
Speaker
um Yeah, which was a bit of fun. But ah ah sort of my main main focus growing up was playing football, um the round ball game. um So i played that all three all through school and then all through most of my 20s actually.
Marathon Spark & Trail Running Passion
00:02:58
Speaker
And I didn't really take up running until, well there was there was a couple of moments like when one day i think I was about 25 and I thought, I might just run a marathon for something, sort of one of those bucket list things you do.
00:03:17
Speaker
say This was kind of like our off-season, jump in, run a marathon, um which, yeah, was quite challenging at the time, particularly probably didn't plan my nutrition very well, if at all. yeah um So sort of hit a wall in that, but I didn't do too badly in the end. I think I finished fourth. and It was kind of a rural thing.
00:03:45
Speaker
marathon It wasn't like a big city marathon. yeah um ah So yeah, that was like 2015. couple of years later, was still playing football and decided to do, there's a race down here in Tasmania called Point to Pinnacle.
00:04:00
Speaker
um which is, it's a road race but it runs from ah the casino here in town all the way up our local mountain which is 1200 meters above sea level.
00:04:11
Speaker
And that's a half marathon. So that was just, that's just something cool to do down here. So again, sort of did that in the off season as something fun to do. Two years later, I did the same race and then I sort of kicked on up this time. I sort of, think I got to a point with football where I just needed a bit of a change up.
00:04:31
Speaker
I think I was probably 29 or so. So, um, signed up for a couple of, uh, road events really. There was like a couple of road marathons in the coming year. Uh, then I found myself, yeah, kind of a year after starting, uh, doing an ultra marathon, um, down on a,
00:04:51
Speaker
island down here called Bruni Island, which is an island of an island. um And essentially you run from the northernmost point to the southernmost point, which is pretty cool. That's about 64 k's, I think.
00:05:04
Speaker
yeah And I did okay in that as well. so um And then shortly after that, so I think we're getting to about 2021, discovered running through a local i discovered trail running through a local trail running series down here called the Kunani Trail Series.
00:05:25
Speaker
So yeah, the backdrop to Hobart is Kunani Mount Wellington. um And yeah, someone had set up this um series of four relatively short runs on the mountain where there's four runs in the year.
00:05:44
Speaker
And so yeah, I signed up to one of those and yeah, just loved it from the first race and kind of that's when I really got into trail running and since then i've kind of ramped it up over time but sort of tended towards the 50 to 100k sort of distance seems to suit me pretty well for whatever for reason.
00:06:10
Speaker
um Yeah, so I've done it right in a few races around the place.
Life in Tasmania & Balancing Work and Running
00:06:14
Speaker
I'd definitely say more than, more than all right, but play, playing it down is absolutely fine. You grew up in Tasmania. Yeah, that's right.
00:06:23
Speaker
Yep. Um, I was actually born on the mainland, but my family relocated when I was two years old. So okay pretty much spent almost my whole life here. i did move back, um, lived in Queensland, in North Queensland for about three and a half years. Um, I got my first job out of uni, but then,
00:06:45
Speaker
Ended up back here and very happy. What is it about ah that's brought you back? ah Well, ah obviously there's like family here. It's the first um first thing that brought me back.
00:07:00
Speaker
um This was all prior to me taking up trail my running, so I can't really claim that it was the trails or the mountains down here that took me back. But I was a pretty keen hiker as well at the time.
00:07:11
Speaker
um And yeah, there's lots to love about Tassie, I think. It's, uh, I've never really been like a ah big city person. i guess growing up here, sort of probably wouldn't tend towards that, but, um,
00:07:28
Speaker
Yeah, it's just a looking like through my current lens, I suppose I would say that we probably have, I'm obviously biased, but some of the the best trails in Australia.
00:07:40
Speaker
um And yeah, Kunani on our doorstep here in Hobart is just magnificent for me. um So yeah, spent a lot of time running on those trails. But yeah, I think more than anything, it's kind of family probably brought me back in the first instance.
00:07:57
Speaker
And you said you went up there after uni. What what do you do for work? I'm an a structural engineer. Okay. So, ah mostly work in the sort of bridges space,
Mindset & Transition to Individual Sports
00:08:10
Speaker
maintenance maintenance and strengthening and things like that, fun things like that.
00:08:14
Speaker
I think that there's quite a few runners that have an engineering background and i think it's the the mindset the or the kind of the type of mind that suits engineering, I think, can really suit, especially ultras with planning and the meticulous nature.
00:08:28
Speaker
do do you feel like being an engineer, having having that mindset does translate over to your running? Perhaps. um I'm probably someone who is treats running differently to how I would treat engineering. Like ah I don't overanalyze. I like ah sort of like to sort of do things more by feel. i don't really look at the numbers or the stats. I just kind of do what feels right for me really. I've never been one as part of my running to actually sort of
00:09:01
Speaker
yeah, look into too much. I mean, probably the the thing that I do find tricky is race nutrition. um And that's that process is almost just like trial and error, really, more than anything. And, you know, a bit of...
00:09:19
Speaker
looking at what everyone else does and trying to figure out works what works best for yourself. But, yeah, really in terms of like training or I don't really look at the science behind it, to be honest.
00:09:30
Speaker
Okay. yeah, it's as' funny. It's kind of a contrast to, I guess, my professional experience life, I guess maybe I just need a break.
00:09:42
Speaker
It's fascinating how how the two can sometimes interact so cohesively and sometimes be completely opposite avenues for you. Go back to when you were playing soccer and then chose to jump in the marathon.
00:09:54
Speaker
What was it about running and a marathon that particularly intrigued you? Because you could have gone and tried anything. Yeah, that's true. um It's a good question, actually. i think I just felt like I was not too bad at it, really. ah ah think when I was playing soccer, I was probably one of the people on the team who would just run out to the end of the game and and still be moving pretty well compared to other people. And I guess I just felt like I could do it.
00:10:28
Speaker
Like, I guess if you're praying to do something that you feel like you would be good at, I think. Like I could have tried volleyball, but I probably would have been awful at it. Yeah. yeah And I guess the other part is like I'd been in a team sport for a long time, but it's quite convenient to do an individual sport. It means you can sort of do everything on your own time and um that's probably the other part of it, like ah the lifestyle part, whereas...
00:10:55
Speaker
With the football, you kind of almost you have to be at a certain place at a certain time versus a lot more freedom to this kind of this kind of sport, I think.
00:11:07
Speaker
Do you find yourself missing the team atmosphere at all? ah I haven't thought too much about it, but the team atmosphere is definitely nice. It's definitely a nice thing to have and it is – something that you obviously don't get as much um with running. But I mean, I still ah think you still can get the social aspect with running.
00:11:30
Speaker
um without it being a team without it being a team sport as such. So, you know, you can still turn up to local events and and catch up with people and, and you know.
00:11:43
Speaker
yeah and Yeah. It's not entirely, although a lot of it is, I guess, solo, like a lot of training and everything, but I do kind of enjoy that. um bit of solitary time, um but yeah, maybe ah I miss it somewhat.
00:12:01
Speaker
but I think it's one of the interesting through lines with the world champs and any time you get to represent a national team or if it even if it was a state team or you enter a relay together is that for some people that unlocks this extra 5-10% of performance and and for some people it it makes no difference because they're able to get everything out.
00:12:20
Speaker
And
World Championships & Jungle Survival Story
00:12:21
Speaker
just where that, put where each person falls on that scale. Do you feel like you've, cause you've been in the world team back in 2023, you're a top finishing in the long course. you feel like you are able to get anything more out of yourself knowing that there is a team supporting you and also relying on you?
00:12:36
Speaker
I do love the um team atmosphere. Definitely. It is definitely another layer, which, which yeah, just makes it extra special. I think, um, Yeah, I don't know if it helps my performance or not really. ah But um I do enjoy like the support um and yeah, just having teammates both running and on the sidelines is, yeah, it's great.
00:13:01
Speaker
It's great thing to have, I think. um Yeah, it just makes makes it that extra to bit special. You mentioned before getting into running, you were more of a hiker. And when I did search your name, one of the things that came up was the experience you had in Malaysia, i think back in 2016, where from what I can tell, you were for about two weeks, essentially lost, stranded in ah jungle there and had to get rescued.
00:13:26
Speaker
Can you talk to what that experience was like? Yeah, sure. um So, yeah, so I, for a bit of context, so as I have mentioned, I'd sort of grew up in Hobart and then I went to North Queensland for my first job out of uni, ah where I lived for about three and a half years.
00:13:50
Speaker
And then after finishing up there, I decided I would do a bit of travel. um So came back down to Tassie for a a month or so to catch up with people and family and then flew across to Malaysia and I had some family friends in Borneo in Sarawak at the time. So it was kind of a good place to sort of set up a bit of a base as ah as a starting point, I guess.
00:14:18
Speaker
And yeah, they sort of like helped me plan a bit of a um ah itinerary through Borneo and i ended up sort of north-eastern part of Borneo at a national park called Moorloo National Park um which featured think it was about a 2,400 high mountain which I decided I would hike up which I think it was recommended or close to mandatory. to hire a guide to reach this summit.
00:14:53
Speaker
um but I decided that I would sort of bypass that and do my own quick ascent, descent.
00:15:05
Speaker
say ah So thought I could probably, ah think i think they had um suggested that this wall could take maybe four or five days and I thought I could do it in one to two.
00:15:16
Speaker
So yeah, I set off. um The trail wasn't too bad, to be honest. There was a couple of places where it bit overgrown. and, um you know, like a tree had fallen over in a storm and then um hadn't been maintained and, you know, you see these kind of trails fairly frequently, I guess. um So I wasn't too concerned.
00:15:40
Speaker
um Yeah, in the most part, the trail wasn't too difficult to follow. I should add that I wasn't, Probably carrying the gear I should have been carrying. Like I was i was packing pretty light.
00:15:53
Speaker
I didn't have a good topographic map. This was kind of 2016. twenty sixteen ah I didn't have like a Maps app. I don't know if they had them back then, but I didn't have them. So I was just kind of...
00:16:05
Speaker
um A little bit blase about the whole thing really. um Anyway, I sort of on the first day I made my way up towards the summit and got to, i think there's three or four huts on the way up and I got to the, so there is kind of place you can camp undercover. So i didn't, because I was going so light and I figured it'd be one to two days, I figured I'd, maybe I'd stay one night if at all.
00:16:33
Speaker
And so didn't bother taking um sleeping gear really. I just figured I'd have a rough night if I needed to and I knew there were these huts I could crash in. So by the time I got to the highest hut, a big storm had rolled in. So I was quite soaked, but I made it to this hut and crashed overnight.
00:16:58
Speaker
um then that was fine. I didn't get much sleep. I was pretty uncomfortable. But the next morning i ah continued on, made it up to the summit and was probably there mid-morning and leaving the summit by 11 a.m.
00:17:17
Speaker
And then I thought I'd probably better hustle back down and get out. um So off I went and sat down, made it most of the way back. I was in the foothills really. And then i was getting to these river crossings, which was of course where all the overgrown sort of scrub sort of stuff was and and the fallen trees and things and I must have on one of those missed the trail coming off the other side shot overshot or something and ended up following something which wasn't the main trail and yeah somehow got
00:17:59
Speaker
really, really badly lost after that. I should probably add it was kind of twilight when I was getting to this point and I was and i was hustling because I thought, oh, I don't want to spend another night here. I might as well just like hustle and get home.
00:18:14
Speaker
um So, yeah, I was really hustling. It was getting dark pretty quickly and it was at that sort of critical point where where these issues were with the trail.
00:18:25
Speaker
um And, yeah, I got myself very badly lost. i ah ah I made the mistake of wandering on and and when I should have really, once I got lost the first time, just stopped and not um made it any worse. But I think, yeah, I just basically wandered the whole night and by the end I was, because I was tired and I was hungry and it was dark, I just completely muffed it and I had no idea where I was after that.
00:18:54
Speaker
Gosh. And it was, You know, it was the kind of terrain where it was just almost impossible to... You couldn't tell if there was a trail like 20 metres away. It was kind of... um It was hilly, it was scrubby, it was... Yeah, it was just tricky.
00:19:14
Speaker
So then, yeah, 13 days later. that's So that moment when you realize, especially in the morning after you've been wandering all night, like i I feel as though that is probably as trail runners and people that go outdoors, it's your worst nightmare that you take ah take the wrong trail and whether it's, yeah, fatigue,
00:19:33
Speaker
hunger or just simply a bad decision, you end up lost and in the middle of nowhere, because quite often we are in the middle of nowhere. What's going through your head during that morning when you realise the situation you're in? Yeah, it's funny. I think I was probably in denial. um I figured that, ah well, that was a bit silly. oh I'll just...
00:19:53
Speaker
wander out today kind of thing. that That was kind of my attitude for probably the first four days or something. Every day I would kind of wake up and be like, oh, can't be that hard.
00:20:04
Speaker
I don't know if I'm overly optimistic. Clearly I was in that case. But yeah, it was funny. It didn't really, I don't think it really hit home.
00:20:15
Speaker
Like didn't have any food, but I thought I'll be right. I'll just, I'll find my way out of here. oh' I'll be home today. Yeah. And what were you doing for food and water through that period?
00:20:29
Speaker
Water wasn't a problem. So it's a very tropical place and there's huge rivers which flow through there. So you can always hear the river. um So I would wander around, come across or a river.
00:20:43
Speaker
You know, i had I had a water flask. That was one thing I did have. So I could ah could fill that up. um Food was a bit more of an issue. i was didn't eat much really. was probably five or six days in before I sort of really started, you know, I was starting to get a little bit more desperate.
00:21:02
Speaker
And I noticed these ferns which grow in the area. And I had... um I had stayed in some local villages around the place and they serve up these ferns. They normally me fry them off with a bit of garlic and and serve them as like a side dish.
00:21:20
Speaker
So i started collecting a few of those and munching on those, but I always describe it as like eating celery like this, not much calories in them. yeah Did the act of eating make the hunger better or worse?
00:21:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny because after like a day of not eating, I wasn't really hungry. um ah it was more my energy levels which I could very clearly feel were diminishing.
00:21:49
Speaker
With each day, i was just getting more and more fatigued. But I didn't ah didn't have like a this like overwhelming desire for like like a hungry feeling you get. Like I get more of a hunger now when I'm sitting in the office and I have it for two hours. Like it's, yeah yeah, it's completely different. It's, yeah, it seems like the hunger just goes away. um But yeah, the energy levels is definitely, um definitely a big thing.
00:22:19
Speaker
And at any point did you go, like, I think this is going to be it? I thought it was a possibility, but I was, I must be an optimistic person, I suppose, because I always held on to some kind of hope that I would get through.
00:22:37
Speaker
I did start to think, well, you know, haven't eaten anything much in many days. I'm clearly getting weaker and weaker.
00:22:49
Speaker
I had a few, like, infected wounds on my feet, but I was probably... Also been in denial about those as well. Didn't pay too much attention except for except they were quite painful.
00:23:01
Speaker
um
00:23:04
Speaker
But yeah, I thought there was a chance I wouldn't make it, but I was kind of, yeah, pretty focused really on just doing what I could to survive and and get out of there.
00:23:15
Speaker
And how did you end up getting out? Well, fortunately for me, I wasn't relying on just myself. So i my, my, um well, I was out there.
00:23:30
Speaker
I spent the whole time trying to get myself out, trying to wander out. But fortunately for me, the alarm had been raised after a handful of days.
00:23:41
Speaker
um I think it was about five or six or seven days before alarm really got raised. And then it kind of hit the media and um my family friends found out about it. And then my family found out about it back home and then um sort of blew up a lot, I think, hit the media here as well.
00:23:59
Speaker
um But some of my family members flew over, like my dad and my brother flew over. um And my family friends came over to the National Park and they all sort of coordinated this big search and rescue operation with, there's a local police and sort of the local, I guess, specialist search and rescue kind of,
00:24:25
Speaker
people there, there was kind of, i think crews from emergency services like, and then there was a few friends of mine I'd made while I was traveling over there. So it was a huge coordinated effort.
00:24:39
Speaker
um And so yeah, these teams came in after probably, was probably eight days missing by the time they sort of coordinated this big effort.
00:24:50
Speaker
All the local park guides as well were key members of that operation. And they basically split off into four or five different search parties and just searched different regions around the area and just basically scaled the jungle and as well as having like a helicopter flying overhead. But I think the canopy was just so dense you couldn't really see much from the air so they needed those teams on ground. but yeah eventually after 13 days one of the teams um found me uh by a river so i was very fortunate and then yeah i was in a great condition so they made the decision to um to lift me out in a helicopter so do you know how far off a main trail you had ended up um
00:25:41
Speaker
I'm sure ah wandered around in circles a lot. they like There are media reports that say I was sort of 20 metres off a track at the end, but I think that's a bit dubious. I don't i don't know where they got that from.
00:25:54
Speaker
ah I'd like to think was little bit further beyond than that. um But yeah, I'm sure at different points I got closer to a track and at different points I moved further away.
00:26:06
Speaker
say Yeah, I really have no idea. I'm sure i was quite lost, um very disorientated. So, yeah. yeah ah And the recovery process of that, I can't imagine it was a ah quick, ah that both physical and also the the psychological side of this.
00:26:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I sort of, so that the immediate part of that was, They flew me, so they picked me up in this, they basically winched me up into this chopper.
00:26:36
Speaker
We flew to the like headquarters of the National Park. um I was assessed by people who turned up, I don't know who they were, if they were medically trained or not, but they sort of took a bit of a look at me and said, on he goes. And they put me in another helicopter and flew me over to the mainland, um over to...
00:26:57
Speaker
sort of the nearest city which is Mary and threw me in the back of an ambulance and drove me to the Mary hospital. Um, and I ended up spending a week in hospital.
00:27:10
Speaker
I didn't have any really severe wounds I would say. had these sort of sores on my feet which were quite infected from rubbing against my boots because it was so wet. um Yeah, I developed these sores and a couple of them were maggot infested which wasn't ideal so they had to remove those and they sort of said so long as they haven't burrowed down to the bone you should be okay.
00:27:43
Speaker
And I think they got pretty close, but they um didn't quite get down to the bones. So that was all quite recoverable. So yeah, they removed the maggots. um I had a very minor operation on my finger where I'd done some damage in a fall where it had kind of wasn't functioning properly. It wouldn't.
00:28:04
Speaker
sort of straighten so that got fixed up and then I was just on a lot of drip feeds really for different salts and nutrients that um I needed to get in um and you know I had fever throughout the stay but largely I was I would say it was in pretty poor condition like I was very malnourished but yeah um you know I was stable so Yeah, so I spent a week in hospital um and then after that I got out and yeah, I was still very obviously um fatigued very easily and um was obviously quite malnourished.
00:28:45
Speaker
um So, but there was no real kind of ah obvious thing to do except just gradually build up my strength really and it was just you know heat normally and um start to move normally and like when i first got into hospital i was kind of um really struggling to walk so think when i was when i was out in the jungle By the end I was kind of just staggering and taking a few steps and then resting, taking a few more steps and resting.
00:29:19
Speaker
But then by the time I got to hospital and and I no longer needed to be able to walk, I think i was just too exhausted to sort of get up for a while until ah yeah I started eating again and getting bit more energy. so Yeah, I kind of had to build up from nothing really.
00:29:35
Speaker
But yeah, it's it's just that, I guess, gradual process of rest and food and you gradually build your strength back and go from there. Looking back at that experience now, essentially 10 years ago, and I'm sure you've had to speak about this quite a bit, so I do appreciate you entertaining my questions now.
00:29:52
Speaker
Is there anything that you learn about yourself in that experience that still has a ah but like a positive impact about you your life now? uh yeah it's I guess it's one of those questions I've thought about like was I did that experience make me into a different person or was i always that person and I think I think I think of myself as the latter like I just kind of got in the jungle and I just kind of
00:30:24
Speaker
did what I needed to do, like i just didn't really doubt too much. I just sort of had this confident confidence, or you could probably say it was arrogance really, that I would, I'd be able to do what I needed to do, that I'd be able to survive.
00:30:40
Speaker
And you know, I guess that's, yeah, i just I just felt like I never kind of, I don't I didn't get into a moment of despair when I was lost. Like maybe people tell me that's what they would do in that situation, but just never really crossed my thinking.
00:30:59
Speaker
Like it's just kind of, what's the point? yeah You know, you got to you got to do. yeah. I don't think it has really changed me.
00:31:10
Speaker
um i don't know, maybe you can ask someone else. um But yeah, I think i think ah like the way I behaved there is probably consistent with how I would expect myself to behave in that situation and consistent with how I would approach other situations. So I don't think it has, but maybe it has.
00:31:33
Speaker
and I think it's it's fascinating that until you're put in a situation on a ah small scale of this is like a ah longer time injury that keeps you away from running whatever your sport is or a financial stress or in a much larger risk and scale is what you've been through. that Until you go through those things, you never truly know how you're going to act. You you can hope you'll deal with things a certain way.
00:31:53
Speaker
But is that what happens or do you just purely panic or or shut down whatever it is? So it's interesting that you feel you feel like you responded in a way that you would have expected yourself to respond back then and also now is just interesting.
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I would say um that I was going to say something, but it just slipped my mind. was going to say, yeah, like in hindsight,
00:32:21
Speaker
The way, like obviously it's good not to panic and everything like that, but um I guess it could have been managed better from my perspective. Like I should have, once I was lost, I should have i should have stopped. And, you know, if I'd kept wondering and kept wondering and got more lost, it's better to stay still and stay.
00:32:42
Speaker
Well, if you know someone's looking for you, I think it's it's sort of better to stay in one spot at because otherwise there's the risk of, you know, they search somewhere and then you're at that point when they're looking somewhere else. um So, you know, there's always that risk.
00:32:56
Speaker
But I guess, you know, there's no guarantee that people were looking for me either. So I didn't know that. so um So, yeah yeah, you know, I guess it's done now but...
00:33:09
Speaker
Definitely there's some decision-making there that wasn't ideal. But, yeah, as you mentioned, like you're tired, you're hungry, you just want to get home. yeah. Yeah.
Return to Trail Running & Personal Achievements
00:33:20
Speaker
When I was reading up about it, the first thing that hit me was the fact that you've chosen to pursue trail running and get back out there, back into nature. Because i feel like for so many people that could have completely turned them off being in nature and they they become a city person or they're just like that environment just scares them because it brings back that whole experience. But clearly that is not the case for you. Was there any sort of barrier to getting back into nature?
00:33:44
Speaker
No, there wasn't. Um, Yeah, I don't know. I think I recognized that I made some errors, but I didn't sort of let that affect my, like, you know, affect my attitude towards nature, I guess. um Like I'd done a fair bit of solo walking before, but um sort of, when when I'm back in Tassie, I normally have other people to go hiking with. So, you know, I got back into hiking pretty quickly after. Like I could do a lot of hiking with my dad and
00:34:16
Speaker
We went on a hike basically not long after I got back, probably once I was strong enough. um But yeah, obviously trail running is more individual and I do a lot of that by myself.
00:34:28
Speaker
um But yeah, really I think I probably, I'm a little bit more sensible these days. Like I actually carry a, emergency locator beacon and I've always got a charged phone and got maps as backup but most of the time I'm running in areas I'm familiar with too these days.
00:34:48
Speaker
So and when I'm when i'm not I've yeah make sure I've at least downloaded a map and got plenty of charge and got a few extra safety items. So yeah, I was never really nervous about getting back into it. It's yeah something I've always enjoyed and um yeah, just didn't put me off it.
00:35:08
Speaker
It sounds like what you've learned from this is that you need to take the the kind of the basic safety requirements that most trail runners should take when they go on in their long run and never do because we never think anything's going to really happen to us that's that bad because you're in a safe environment.
00:35:23
Speaker
Yeah, I would strongly recommend that You know, you take those extra few hundred grams, um particularly if it's and not an organized event and particularly if you're by yourself as well. But yeah you never know what can happen if it's you know it's not getting lost. you know You can't control whether you step on a snake and snake lashes out. So yeah, it's always sensible to take take these precautions and there's not much cost involved um just just a little bit of extra weight or whatever it is it's yeah really not much stopping you no no analysis you could easily roll an ankle and it can go a bit further and break or be a significant spray and then you' you're stuck on the trail and can't get out so yeah yes
00:36:08
Speaker
Moving on to your running now, she like you you kind of went through roads, then did part of that Kanani trail series. When I looked up your results, the kind of the main stuff pops up from 2022 with the first time you ran the Kanani Mountain Runs Ultra.
00:36:26
Speaker
where you came you came third pursuing a more competitive side of trails do you think you've always been competitive or was there something about a trail running environment that you just happened to be good at and so that's why you're you ended up here um yeah probably probably a bit of both really I wouldn't describe myself as a crazily competitive person, but that being said, I'm pretty driven.
00:36:56
Speaker
um I'm always sort of looking to improve where I can. So yeah, um I guess you run, you know, you run and you get third and you think, oh, well, I ah could do better than that. And you come back the next year and you try and improve your time more than anything. Like, I guess, yeah, it's more.
00:37:19
Speaker
battling against yourself, although it is always nice to, you know, finish first or even top three, top five, whatever it is. yeah, buts it's, you know, always a nice feeling to do well. So and measure yourself against your peers, I guess.
00:37:34
Speaker
So driving to get that that faster time or that higher place, that was an instigator for you to keep training and pursue the competitive side of the sport. Yeah, it's hard, like,
00:37:48
Speaker
There's some kind of balance point, I think, between just enjoying trail running for what it is, but also tipping into the competitive side. um And I always try not to focus too much on on results or being competitive, I think.
00:38:06
Speaker
But at the same time, it's kind of always in the back of your mind, like, oh, if you do well, it's it's just nice to do well, I guess. But at the same time, I think it's...
00:38:17
Speaker
good to appreciate just the act of trail running itself and and just enjoy you know being out in nature and and and just running really and and yeah how that how that makes you feel and and how it feels to be out on your local mountain. So I try not to overly focused on the competitive side but I do enjoy and do I do enjoy racing at the same time so I try to have that balance of enjoying both sides of the coin I guess I was reading your write-up for Ultra where essentially you say the same thing and hence hence the question that it's about actually enjoying the long runs taking in where you are being present having fun and looking more inward than what's happening around you in the races and I'm
00:39:07
Speaker
I completely, i personally am on the same level, but that's when I have my best performances because I'm focused on myself and I'm enjoying it. But I just find it interesting of where that where that line of of how your performance is driven by your competitiveness or or your level of just sheer fun that you're having and where everyone falls in that. Because my experience talking to people is that Everyone has both because you can't yeah can't just just be competitive and not love what you're doing because you've got to train so hard to do it. But at the same time, if you're not competitive, you wouldn't race. so it's just where people fall that spectrum. Yeah, yeah, it's true.
00:39:42
Speaker
I think definitely when I'm – like on race day, I suppose, like in an actual event, I probably do become a bit more competitive than – um and, you know, focus on the race. And I'm not always fully inward focus like I do. um There is, again, some kind of balance where I am aware of what other people are doing and it does sort of inspire me to run differently, I think, than if I was just running by myself. um
00:40:14
Speaker
So, yeah, there's definitely some kind of, I couldn't say exactly where I was in that range, but I definitely try and um make sure that I'm doing it to enjoy it rather than doing it to be competitive because don't know if you, if you're too focused on the competitive side, then,
00:40:34
Speaker
you know, you're going to get disappointed if something doesn't go as well as you think. Whereas, yeah, I tend to have a more pessimistic view of where I'm going to finish and like to exceed expectations rather than aim too high and disappoint myself. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, if I don't do as well as I expect, I think I can still be happy um and just, you know, remind myself that...
00:41:03
Speaker
I'm lucky to be doing it. I'm lucky that I'm in the position where I can go out and do this sort of thing for fun. And so many people aren't as lucky as I am and and can't do this kind of thing because they're in, you know, different circumstances, whether it's people around the world who are in all sorts of, you know, strife like wars or whatever, or ah whether it's, you know, closer to home and it's and they've got like other um Things they have to worry about that they don't get this same kind of freedom that I have. So, you know I'm lucky to be doing it, I think, at the end of the day. And that's what I have to remind myself if I don't do as well as I think I should have.
00:41:46
Speaker
But yeah, I've been quite fortunate that I've mostly done, well, probably exceeded any expectation I had when I started. so Yeah. I really appreciate that perspective. And think it's probably testament to the fact that when you look at your results, there's a lot of consistency, a lot of top threes. And yes, you've only been doing it for, say, four or five years in more of a competitive sense, but to still have that consistency of performances. And like we said earlier, you're on your second world's team now. So you don't just pop onto those, especially not this year.
00:42:17
Speaker
i think it's a testament to the way you look at it. Speaking of that first experience you had Innsbruck in 2023, what was it like when you got the news of you're going to represent your country for the first time?
00:42:30
Speaker
Yeah, so that that was a bit of a funny circumstance for me because in 2023, they had um hey ah qualifying, ah what's like ah what's it called?
Race Selection & Training Approach
00:42:42
Speaker
auto qualifier?
00:42:44
Speaker
Yeah. um And that happened to be Kunani Mountain Runs. So The first male finisher and the first female finisher from that run got auto-selected.
00:42:55
Speaker
So, sort of in the lead up to the championships, I became aware of that, like I hadn't heard of it before then. So in the lead up to this run, I became aware of it and sort of my attitude to that was, oh, cool, so there'll be some, like, some actual good runners coming over from the mainland then. That'll be fun to sort of test myself against them.
00:43:17
Speaker
um Yeah, so figured, oh, it'll give me, like, a good gauge of where I'm actually at. And then, yeah, I did happen to win it, which I think was a surprise to everyone, including myself. Yeah.
00:43:28
Speaker
And then, yeah, um, Aaron, who was the team captain who had flown down, just kind of came over to me at the end of the race and said, do you want to go to Austria? And i was like, sure, let's go. Yeah. So it was a bit of a surprise and yeah, it was good fun.
00:43:45
Speaker
Um, Yeah. Yeah. And you beat Nigel Hill by 26 minutes back then. And Nigel also made the team that year. And I was just looking at the female winner was Sarah Ludovici, who also obviously made made the team. And um it's, yeah, it's an impressive, impressive run. And was the course pretty much the same 2023 as it was 2022?
00:44:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that hasn't changed much. There's been a few little tweaks to the course, but yeah, I did improve a fair bit over that time. Yeah, I'd say so. It was a good 50 minutes that you chopped off in in one year.
00:44:20
Speaker
What do you put that down to? i think I was just new to the sport. just Prior to that, I hadn't really done much running on the mountain um prior to that first one.
00:44:32
Speaker
And at the time, I think it was the longest distance I'd run for the first one. So for the second one, I was a little bit more ready. um I'd done a little bit more, yeah, preparation on that on the mountain.
00:44:44
Speaker
but Yeah, I just built up really because I think in 2022, I was probably only one year into trail running. So I was still kind of learning the craft, I guess. But yeah, a year later, I was a little more...
00:44:58
Speaker
prepared yeah and the experience that you had at austria is there anything that you can take away from that towards performing and being able to cope with the pressure and and and the environment this year in can frank yeah i think just having had that experience i guess sets me up to sort of know what to expect um Yeah, more more I think the terrain and the altitude than anything. just Just being aware going in now that it's pretty steep. It's pretty steep and it's pretty high.
00:45:33
Speaker
um You know, was I found it yeah very challenging last time. And I think that being at 2,500 at the highest point, I think that just takes that little bit more out of you than it does here in Australia with...
00:45:50
Speaker
with nothing really that high or down here like I'm at 1200 and that doesn't really have any effects. So i think that makes a difference. So I guess it's just being aware of that going in and maybe trying not to go out too hard and just to save yourself that little bit more um and just being aware of of how steep it was last time um probably just this makes me feel more ready, I guess.
00:46:19
Speaker
um not going in as blind as I was last time because I don't know if you're aware, but that was my first ever trail run outside of Tasmania. So last time.
00:46:30
Speaker
Yeah. ah I've done a couple more around Australia this time. So a little bit more wider experience. Talking about essentially since last year's World Champs up to this year's, what's kind of been the the driver for you in in your race selection um and over those two years?
00:46:50
Speaker
Yeah, just kind of wanted to try a few different things. um Like obviously hear a lot about UTA, so I thought, oh, why not have a go with that? um And then otherwise it's really just sort of hearing a few things from people and doing a bit of my own research. And generally like if I'm traveling, i think I might as well target like doing a 100 kilometer run because you know, what's the point in traveling and then only running for an hour?
00:47:20
Speaker
So I'll make a full day out of it. So um yeah, like I did one in Queensland And I have lots of family in Queensland, so I thought, oh, well, I'll try and find one in Queensland. And it was probably mistake to do it in October because I think I was running in 36 degrees.
00:47:39
Speaker
But yeah, that was a little bit unpleasant. um But yeah, that was probably why i did the one in Queensland. um But yeah, otherwise it's just kind of hearing a bit about the races or just seeing them online really. Yeah.
00:47:53
Speaker
yeah How much has your approach to training changed over those last few years? ah Do you work with a coach? No, I just, I don't work with a coach.
00:48:05
Speaker
I just sort of do what feels good really. um And yeah, I don't have any real structure. just I just go running really.
00:48:17
Speaker
ah And again, I think it comes back to ah enjoy doing it. Why would I change it? I've done okay as I am. so um But I think over over time I've probably just increased what I do really do, especially like leading into this particular run coming up.
00:48:38
Speaker
As I said, knowing how steep it was last time, I've been doing – A lot of vert over the last yeah month or two. say just sort of trying to be as ready as I can.
00:48:52
Speaker
And like you said, in that orchard post as well, you are probably in the best place to train in terms of the terrain that we've got in Australia, at least I know of Australia, because it is quite rocky. It is quite technical. You can get some very steep climbs. Like you've got one of the few VKs that we could possibly have over there.
00:49:10
Speaker
What, since again, I can't stalk you on Strava, what has your training been looking like? Well, I've generally sort of run every other day and I always, pretty much always run on the mountain.
00:49:24
Speaker
Fortunately for me, I can sort of leave work and run for 15 minutes along a rivulet and then suddenly I'm in the foothills and up I go. and say um yeah I often spend two or three hours on a week run just um running up and down the trails on the mountain and then on a weekend I've been doing sort of up to six six and a half hours of just running up and down really and um and there's so many trails on on the mountain that like you don't really get bored of it there's just it just so many different routes you can do so yeah i think that's it really just doing a lot of up and down aside from doing probably more vert than you would normally do is there anything else you've changed in how you would normally train to for this championships
00:50:13
Speaker
No, not really. um Yeah, I think just trusting that I can, that that's what I need to do really. i haven't changed too much else. um Yeah, that's about it. Just maybe, yeah, doing making sure I'm doing some longer runs really on the weekend is probably the key thing. Just making can sure I'm doing the hours um rather than just, you know, quick quick up and down.
00:50:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's just spending time and I asked Blake Turner, who I've just interviewed, just gone out, what success at the championships looks like for him. Because in the most respectful way, Australia is not in a podium potential perspective. Like somebody can always surprise us, but we kind of we know that that we're ah top 20 would be amazing.
00:51:06
Speaker
A podium would be c incredible, but we can't just say, I want to come this position. At least that's probably probably not productive for for our best results. so So what what does a successful championships look like for you?
00:51:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think I would aim to do better than I did last time in terms of positioning. I think I finished 98th, so I'd probably be aiming to do fairly significantly better than that. um But yeah, at the end of the day, I think I just want be able to feel like I've done my best and feel like I've had a good day and you know, I've left nothing.
00:51:44
Speaker
out there I've just given it my best shot I feel like I've trained as well as I can leading up that I've prepared as well as like finishing up the conversation I'm curious if I ask you what question if you were interviewing yourself what question would you have asked you that I have not have asked yet um if anything comes to mind good question I feel like it's a bit of a cop-out question but I'm also I'm also curious what do people normally say for this?
00:52:13
Speaker
Well, I'll be honest, i've got the reason I'm asking this question is because I can't do the research on you. And so there's, ah ah yes, there was the big story about but you in Malaysia. That one's kind of the obvious thing to pick up on. But because of that, and it's been fascinating getting to to know your story and I really like your mindset towards the training, but If there was something about your character, and it can be completely out of running, but is there anything that feels interesting or relevant?
00:52:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. All right. So there's another run um down here, which is pretty prestigious, i would say. It's called the Cradle Mountain Run. And it follows the overland track course, which is kind of advertised as a seven to eight day or six to eight day multi-day walk here in Tasmania.
00:53:04
Speaker
um attracts a lot of visitors. It goes from Cradle Mountain in the north down to Lake St. Clair in the south. And it's around 80 k's and so yeah we try and cover it in a day so it's kind of a difficult one to get into because they only accept 60 entrants and it's very popular and it's just basically whoever clicks the button first um gets in say ah
00:53:36
Speaker
I've done it a couple of times. The first time I did it, i um I'll give you a spoiler. I finished the race with hypothermia. And um so going back to the start, it was kind of a, um I would say relatively mild by Tasmanian standards. Like it was cool, but not freezing day.
00:53:59
Speaker
I guess it was a little windy, but The key thing, I think, was it was ah was wet, but again, not like torrential rain. It was kind of, when we were starting, it was kind of like drizzly, misty kind of kind of rain. So it was one of those days where you're unsure to start with when you wear, like, should I be wearing a thermal? Should I be wearing a short-sleeved top?
00:54:24
Speaker
should be out in my rain jacket? Like, how should I start the race? something I ended up settling for my Merino wool thermal. And in the back of my mind, I sort of figured that you start in this kind of, you basically start with a bit of a climb up Marion's lookout, um which gets pretty exposed. And so I thought like this is like the potential where I, I might be the coldest. yeah So just be prepared for that.
00:54:53
Speaker
Um, And then as you progress, it's sort of you're often running in relatively sheltered um areas through valleys, really. Like that sort of area, there's a lot of side trips which go up fairly high mountains, but yeah the main track sort of runs through the valley through the middle.
00:55:12
Speaker
So most of it is relatively sheltered and particularly the last sort of 20Ks, which you run beside Lake St. Clair. So in my mind, I figured that, you know, the most risky place to be exposed to weather conditions would be nearest the start where it's where you're up on the plateau and it can be quite...
00:55:35
Speaker
cold and and windy so anyway I got through that bit fine and I felt okay and I was moving okay and yeah moved through all the middle section and and got to the last 20k beside the lake um and I was still wearing my thermal and I was okay but then um so in the last 20k it's this rainforest and you know you figure oh that'll be sheltered but sort of as soon as you go in, it feels like the temperature's sort of dropped within the rainforest, I guess, because it is sheltered and it doesn't get any sun.
00:56:16
Speaker
And then secondary to that was because it had been wet enough that all the, um you know, shrubbery was all saturated. Yeah.
00:56:27
Speaker
And that was sort of all overhanging the track as well. And so suddenly running beside that, all that sort of rubs against, you know, my skin and my and my thermal and suddenly I'm just completely saturated, completely soaked through.
00:56:45
Speaker
And I sort of, I do remember feeling like my, temperature like just shivering just feeling my temperature drop but i kind of felt like i was in the back end of the race so i didn't need to stop like i just needed to get to the finish i'm almost there while would like you know there's no point in stopping or putting on another another layer or changing the layer over um But, yeah, as ah as I progressed, I was getting more and more fatigued and suddenly I was slowing down an awful lot.
00:57:14
Speaker
um Like I hadn't eaten for a while. was just freezing and, um yeah, stumbled my way to the finish. And then when I found myself at the end, i was pretty pretty um pretty ecstatic actually. I was like, great, and just finish. This is great.
00:57:32
Speaker
Like what a run. But I had – Luckily for me, I had um some family who had just done the walk and they coincidentally but sort of timed a little bit to finish with my run and my partner was also there to support at the end and, you know, I was kind of pretty ecstatic and just talking but from my perspective, I was fine but from their perspective, they later told me I was like,
00:57:59
Speaker
It sounded like I was talking in slow motion um and they realized I was really cold. yeah um And then they started kind of trying to kind of huddle and warm me up and sort of changing some warmer clothes.
00:58:13
Speaker
but um But it just took a long time and then... We went into the shower um and then there were the the showers were on timers so it like turned off after four minutes and then just started convulsing.
00:58:27
Speaker
gosh. And eventually we went into the visitor's center where it was really warm and I drank a hot chocolate, which is, in hindsight, like the first thing you should do is try and get a hot drink and warm from the inside out.
00:58:41
Speaker
And secondary to that, it would have been better to go inside straight away and get changed rather than stay outside in the cold and try and, you know, get changed. would have been better to go into the nice warm air-conditioned, visit the centre, get a hot drink straight away and and get changed in there.
00:58:59
Speaker
um But, yeah, like it was more severe than at the time I i thought I was fine. um But in hindsight, like I've got a few... memory blanks from the end there. Oh, wow. Where people tell me things that have happened or where I put things. I was like, oh, I don't remember that.
00:59:18
Speaker
Wow. So it was severe enough. And I'd sort of, I think, gone beyond the shivering stage. um And then once I got, like, warmed up a little in the shower, I started shivering again. So actually, i think there was a sign that I was actually...
00:59:33
Speaker
warming up a little bit rather than the other way around yeah um but yeah i guess the lesson out of all that is it's always better to you know stop and react to the circumstances at the time rather than you know keep on moving with the end you know i had the end goal was in mind i thought i was close enough that i would just finish the race and and sort it out and i didn't think I was – like I felt cold, but I didn't know I was hypothermic. Yeah.
01:00:02
Speaker
But, you know, by the end I had – I felt like all my energy was zapped and I was just sort of stumbling. Gosh. go Yeah. it's It's fascinating because I think there'd be so many people that have been in that exact same situation where you feel yourself getting a bit cold. i thought ah One of the guys locally like would finish mid-pack, but the same experience in an ultra.
01:00:24
Speaker
Just noticed starting to get cold, but was like, I'll just get to the top of the climb. now I'm going uphill. I'll be staying warm enough. And then body just started to shut down. And need you kind of you recognize the signs, but you sort of you ignore them or you put them off and you're But it's not until you hear experiences like that that you go, okay, no, you need it doesn't matter first place or last place, you need to recognize them because if you shut down, you shut down.
01:00:48
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And i I guess I was lucky that I made it to the finish without sort of, yeah, completely stopping. But yeah, I was really, yeah, really pushing it. So yeah, definitely I should have got the wet shirt off, put a dry one on and put the raincoat over the top of that and probably would have been okay. But yeah, even like, even if you wait just, you know, a little bit longer than suddenly your hands don't function, they're just so,
01:01:17
Speaker
too cold to sort of be able to even maneuver like by the time i got to the finish i couldn't open zippers like us yes i was pretty cold which as you said when you then go to open a gel or do anything you're you're just stuffed yeah yeah there's just a cascading effects from it Wow. Well, I'm glad I asked the question. i think that's ah an experience that I don't want anyone else to go through, but it's it's a good lesson that it is.
01:01:39
Speaker
You need to prioritize your your body, even if you think that you're close. I guess it's even from a nutrition perspective, we talk about it doesn't matter if you're 10 minutes from the end. If you think you need the gel, take the gel. Yeah. And it'll always end up like I was so much slower because I didn't stop. Like I would have been so much faster if I'd stopped for like three minutes, taking a shirt off, put another shirt on. Yeah.
01:02:03
Speaker
My time completely blew out after that. yeah Yeah. Which year was this? ah twenty twenty 2023, I think. okay Okay. I was just looking at the results because you but what place did you finish this year?
01:02:17
Speaker
i finished third at Cradle this year, I think. yeah Yeah. and I was just just just looking at the results. and I was going to say if you ran eight hours and went through that experience, I would be bud have been very, very impressed. No, it was nine hours that time. Yeah.
01:02:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's still still impressive. Well, I'm glad glad I asked the question. It's very interesting. Andrew, I think that's probably a good place to finish us up for this. It's been lovely to get to know you and hear a bit about your story. It's a bit of an an enigma, especially for someone that likes to dive into people's backgrounds and understand a bit more about it.
01:02:49
Speaker
um When do you head over? ah 15th or fourteenth or something of September. Yeah. yeahp So still got a little bit. Still got bit time. Okay. Well, yeah good luck the rest of the training. It sounds like the training is – fun for you, which I think is is so much of turning up to these events when you've got to train specifically is having them that mental freshness to to still give on the day. So it's been, I'm i'm glad to hear that it sounds like you're in you're in the right the right place and the right training mindset at the moment. And I can't wait to see how you go.
01:03:23
Speaker
Perfect. Thanks, James. Yeah, it was fun to chat. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this conversation with Andrew. That one is not what I expected when I first asked Andrew to jump on a conversation. The little bit of research that I could find and his story in Borneo was incredible and I cannot imagine what that must have been like to live.
01:03:42
Speaker
For him though, it seems like it has just been one step on his journey to where he is now and just further cementing his love and passion for being in the outdoors and balancing his structured work as an engineer with this playful exuberance of finding the trails of Mount Wellington Kananya. If you enjoyed the show, please give us five-star rating wherever you've listened and consider sharing it around. We really, really appreciate that. We'll catch you soon for the next Trail 2, World Championship Series.