Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
27. Jay and Lindy Nelson
63 Plays2 years ago
In this week's episode, we sit down with Jay and Lindy Nelson, authors of the book Consciousness In A Nutshell, to be released in September 2022. Jay and Lindy are super knowledgeable in the realm of consciousness and well read on the topic, and the studies done in the field. Follow them in the links below:
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/jayunderscorenelson
Website: www.ConsciousnessInaNutshell.com
https://www.instagram.com/consciousnessinanutshell/
https://www.instagram.com/jayunderscorenelson/
_________________
Music By Nathan Willis RIP
Follow Pursuit Of Infinity:
www.PursuitOfInfinity.com
Discord: https://discord.io/pursuitofinfinity
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPpwtLPMH5bjBTPMHSlYnwQ
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/58he621hhQ7RkajcmFNffb
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/pursuit-of-infinity/id1605998093
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pursuitofinfinitypod/
Patreon: Patreon.com/PursuitOfInfinity
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Episode
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pursuit of Infinity. In this week's episode, I sit down with Jay and Lindy Nelson, the authors of the book Consciousness in a Nutshell. The book will be available in September, and you can find out about it at consciousnessinanutshell.com.
Fun Moments and Guest Appearance
00:00:16
Speaker
We had a fun and wide ranging conversation with a special guest appearance from my cat Camacho. And if you watch the YouTube conversation, uh, you can see him in all his glory trying to take over the podcast. I really enjoyed this one. And it was the first time we had featured two guests at the same time, which was a fun change in format. Jay and Lindy are super knowledgeable in the topic of consciousness and are quite well read in the literature and studies conducted within the field.
Supporting the Podcast: Follows, Subscriptions, and Patreon
00:00:42
Speaker
But before we get to it, if you like what we do and you want to support the show, we'd really appreciate a follow or a sub as well as a five star rating and maybe even some kind words of encouragement in the form of a review. These things really help us to expand our reach and credibility, which is so much appreciated.
00:00:59
Speaker
If you want to show us some next level love, you can become a patron at patreon.com slash pursuit of infinity, where you can donate as little as $2 a month to support what we do. Check us out on YouTube.
Podcast Availability and Social Media
00:01:10
Speaker
The channel is up and all of our episodes are there. So if you prefer some visuals and some faces to the names, subscribe and keep up with us there. We're also on Instagram at pursuit of infinity pods. So give us a follow and reach out because we would love to hear from you.
00:01:25
Speaker
And without further delay, thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoy this week's episode.
Discussing 'Consciousness in a Nutshell'
00:01:55
Speaker
So we're here today with Jay and Lindy. Thank you guys so much for joining me. Thank you for having us, Josh. Thanks for being here. Yeah. And as I understand, you guys have a book coming out very soon called Consciousness in a Nutshell and consciousness being such a wide ranging subject. I think I'd like to clarify what or who are your target audience for that book.
00:02:23
Speaker
So this is ultimately a science and a philosophy book. It's a synthesis of everything we know so far and then taking that a little bit further. So the last portion of the book is interpretations where we
00:02:35
Speaker
you know, just make an interpretation about all the evidence that we've presented. And, uh, you know, consciousness is a mysterious subject, but there is something that can be said, um, after we, you know, prime the brain for what it is and what it isn't and, uh, where it is and where it isn't. And what might that mean? Um, so ultimately we're looking to capture people that, um, like science, like philosophy, David Eagleman, um,
00:02:59
Speaker
people who like Alan Watts, people like Terrence McKenna, Jill Rogan experience, subscribers, that sort of thing. So it's more, I wouldn't say it's more tailored towards those who are already on the journey because the vehicle in which all this information is presented is a narrative. So it's a category called creative nonfiction, where we take all of these different concepts and theories and research throughout the millennia and put them in the vehicle of
00:03:28
Speaker
a narrator and who is sort of telling his story and his experience, his personal experiences and his research experiences. Yeah. So the book kind of opens up with, you know, two neuropsychopharmacologists and they're kind of up and coming and they're about to publish something about consciousness. And then one of them winds up missing and the other one winds up trapped in a room without doors or windows.
Exploring the Book's Narrative and Sources
00:03:51
Speaker
And, um, you know, he has about eight hours left to live. And so his, his like dying wish is to share the last 10 years of his research. And so he condenses everything into one letter that he writes to a stranger. And, um, so, you know, you're the stranger in this. And this, so yeah, as the reader, you're, um,
00:04:11
Speaker
kind of reading this kind of semi-autobiographical tale. And we wanted to make it accessible. So, because consciousness can be a real heady subject. And so without those frequent dips in the story, kind of like a documentary does, it can be
00:04:25
Speaker
you can get cognitive fatigue and you're just like, okay, well, I'm too tired to read this. So, um, we dip in the story and then, you know, dip out and dip back in and just present different textures of information throughout. But, um, it's a powerhouse of information and you will understand what consciousness is at the end. So.
00:04:44
Speaker
this is a book for everybody, not just the super intellectual or the academic, right? Definitely not. Having said that, there are over 490 unique, citable sources inside the book. To synthesize all that inside of a 420 page book took a while. So it is not for anyone particular demographic, but anyone demographic would get something out
00:05:10
Speaker
Oh yeah, for sure. Cause like the first half of the book is kind of teaching you how the brain is set up and how the structure of your brain gives rise, you know, how your body organizes all your perceptions for
Sensory Perception and Consciousness Beyond the Brain
00:05:20
Speaker
you. And, um, so once you lay that foundation, then we can talk about, you know, what if consciousness doesn't exist in the brain? You know, what if it isn't this emergent phenomenon? What w what would that mean? And, uh,
00:05:32
Speaker
You know, the most exciting portion for me is the last portion of the book, but I mean, that's not to discount the first three portions because it really will change the way you relate to the world because most people don't understand that, you know, we don't live in reality. We live 500 milliseconds behind the moment. You know, so did you know about that yet? I'm not familiar now, actually.
00:05:55
Speaker
So I picked this up from Dr. David Eagleman, who's done a lot of work on time and he's just one of the most famous neuroscientists.
00:06:05
Speaker
Anyway, um, you know, you have all these senses, but they don't get processed at the same time. So, you know, your visual signals come into your brain, but they're not processed at the same time as your, um, or they're not processed at the same speed as your, uh, hearing. Um, your touch is actually a little bit slower. So the slowest thing he makes this a point, the slowest thing is like, you know, touching your toe.
00:06:26
Speaker
but if i touch your nose and i touch your toe at the same time they're gonna feel synchronous it feel like it's happening right now but actually what's happening is you know for that sensation of the toe for you to be to feel that sensation your body has to wait up like almost a half second.
00:06:41
Speaker
to, to wait if there's anything else that you can feel these things simultaneously. So it has to sync all these data streams and it does a lot of trouble to do this. Um, so yeah, I mean, and then obviously, you know, speed of light and the speed of sound are different. Um, so that plays an account. Um, just adding that the signals that your body received, they don't come in labeled. There, there isn't, it's just electricity. So your brain receives electricity and it has to take a little bit of time to determine, Oh, that's that's touch. Oh, that smell.
00:07:11
Speaker
and translate that data into a perceivable outcome. Yeah. Um, and that takes about a half a second. Yeah. With the exception of, uh, the old factory. So smelling, um, all of your senses, basically they get converted almost at the sense organ and then get converted into the common currency of, you know, neurons, bikes plus and minus. So.
00:07:34
Speaker
So basically your eye, right? You're seeing something. So it converts the retinal images at the eye and then sends those, you know, plus and minus back to the optic nerve, which goes into your brain and then goes through the thalamus. And that's where the brain's like, Oh, this is vision.
00:07:51
Speaker
You know, but it, yeah. So like your taste is converted at the tongue. So, you know, David Eagleman makes this point. It's like your brain is trapped in darkness and silence. It's trying to understand what's out there, but it fundamentally never does. So you've never seen reality. You've only seen your brain's best guess or interpretation of what reality is. Um, that's why Eagleman is very well known for, um, hijacking the senses in that way, because since all of that data just comes through an electrical signals,
00:08:20
Speaker
You can actually reprogram those signals to interpret the data differently. And that's one of the many ways it can bend consciousness. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess that would make sense because there's only so fast in which electrical signals can travel through the nervous system. And that brings us to what consciousness is because a lot of us tend to define consciousness, uh, based off of our perceptions, our touch.
00:08:47
Speaker
taste our vision and if it takes this much time for the signals to get to us then what lies beneath it you know that would mean that there's something extra something below the surface that might be considered consciousness is that sort of in the right direction. Something below the surface well. I mean.
00:09:12
Speaker
Our experience of consciousness is, is a thing, but you know, your subconscious is taking care of most of what you're doing and you're, you know, like you're starting to react. If a, if a car crash is happening, your foot is going to come to the break before you might even realize that it's happening. So like you're reacting, you, you pull, if you're, you put your hand on a hot stove, your hand will retract before you even, you don't have to think about it. It's an automatic thing. So is that what you're saying? Like, there's like this.
00:09:41
Speaker
You know, there is consciousness, which is happening a half second behind the moment, which is not trying to overwhelm the operator, but it's, it's more about.
00:09:50
Speaker
giving the operator the need to know information that they need to survive. So it isn't everything. It isn't every sensation that you're having. It's just, you know, a small, tiny story about what just happened a half second ago. And do I need to, does this conscious agent that can adjudicate between conflicting instincts get involved and get you out of this jam? So that's, that's the way I kind of view it. Did that, did that kind of answer your question or was that off?
00:10:17
Speaker
No, yeah, yeah, definitely answered my question. Because the way I see consciousness, it's more of like a fundamental property of the universe as opposed to space time being fundamental. Dr. Donald Hoffman goes into this in great detail and
00:10:34
Speaker
It's super interesting to think about because, again, most of us, we consider consciousness to be located within our heads, and we consider it to be our sensual perceptions. So to you, how fundamental and how broad is consciousness?
00:10:54
Speaker
So it's a great question. Consciousness is fundamental.
Challenging the Standard Scientific Model of Consciousness
00:10:58
Speaker
There's only two claims you could ever make about consciousness. A, it's fundamental, or B, it's emergent. Now, the standard model of science is basically to say that it's emergent, that the universe is made up of blind unintelligible force. And so that is what we spend the last two portions of the book destroying. We're trying to destroy the scientific model that everybody's been
00:11:24
Speaker
entranced by, you know, this idea that, you know, matter, that somehow consciousness will come in later. That I don't agree with that. Um, because, I mean, if you think about it, like being existence is perception. Like how could you ever have any sort of like perception without some sort of being and it works the other way too. Um, you want to pop in? I was loving that thread. Okay. But like, I mean, if you're having any kind of like,
00:11:54
Speaker
being or thought, like there has to be some sort of perception. So there has to be, you know, like time and perception are kind of intertwined, like without perception, how is there time without time? How is there perception? Um, so yeah, it does get tricky because you have to, for people to understand that consciousness is fundamental and maybe might not exist in the brain solely. You know, I, it's an interaction between the brain and the environment and that produces our,
00:12:22
Speaker
what we colloquial call consciousness. But in the end of the book, we kind of like relabel. It's kind of like everybody's made a categorical error and has mislabeled what is life. And so it does take a lot to get to that point where you can accept it. But, um, that is, I mean, you're on the right path. If you've already, if you've already intimated that consciousness is something fundamental and it's not something that emerges.
00:12:48
Speaker
Yeah. So consciousness being fundamental, would that essentially mean that even inanimate objects in some way, shape or form are interacting with consciousness? Okay. They are being perceived. So that's a good, that's a good question. Yeah. Um, okay. So the way I kind of put it is like, um, if you can imagine a circle.
00:13:10
Speaker
And this is not eloquent, but you know, blooming onions. Oh, fantastic. Right. So good. Right. So anyway, they have that blooming onion maker that takes the onion that's kind of circular and that are kind of spherical and then, you know, turns it into that. So if you can imagine every point of that onion was conscious, that's the kind of idea we're trying to, trying to get you to. So if you collapse it all, then it's this, this entire circle is consciousness.
00:13:38
Speaker
but the way that we're experiencing life, like you seem to have a consciousness out there and I have a plant in my room and it has some semblance of awareness over there. It's not able to have a generative model in its head about the environment like we do, because it doesn't have brains, but 80% of the earth's biomass doesn't have brains. So that's not even needed. It's just levels. It still responds to its environment. It still responds to stimulus. Yeah. So it's levels of awareness.
00:14:05
Speaker
is what it all comes down to. And so humans, we believe we have the highest levels of awareness and maybe we do. Um, but we definitely seem to have the most self-reflexive consciousness out there. And so thinking about thinking and all that jazz that comes along with that.
00:14:24
Speaker
Yeah, I think you brought up a very good point there because even without a brain or without any brains at all, consciousness would still be here and it would still be fundamental because you can't escape that. It's like the analogy where they say it's like a fish doesn't know it's when it's like swimming in water. You know, we are.
00:14:44
Speaker
We are in consciousness you know and if you try to define consciousness from the perspective of something that is swimming in it. It makes it difficult especially when you try to break it down into language. Because language being something that is static it's like we're taking a fluid.
00:15:01
Speaker
energy signal and we're trying to describe it by making it static. So it seems to me that language and any human perspective that tries to touch consciousness is very difficult to accurately describe it. It's more or less like pointing to it, you know? Yeah. No, I really liked what you said in that email because, you know, yeah. And also, you know,
00:15:24
Speaker
So we're all of the belief that consciousness is fundamental, right? So, but it is fundamental to anyone, no matter you believe if it arose or whatever. Like my point being, like you only have your own consciousness to, to you've only ever seen your own consciousness. So there is no such thing as like a consciousness, a and a consciousness to be that you can compare it to. You only have your own. So it is fundamental to your experience.
00:15:48
Speaker
And so, you know, the reason we chose to make the subtitle a psychonautical odyssey is because, you know, uh, psychonautical explorations are the way to understand consciousness, you know, as like, first off, life is oscillation, you know, like you don't exist in one steady state of being called awake. You waiver between, you know, levels of awareness all throughout the day. You know, you're probably peak awake right now.
00:16:14
Speaker
Um, but you know, in a couple hours, you might be tired. And so, you know, you start to slip into an altered state of consciousness we call sleeping. And so there's all these transformations in consciousness. And so the book is laid out to, um, take people through many different common transformations in consciousness or non ordinary states of consciousness.
00:16:32
Speaker
and compare them against one another and as you do that you start to understand what baseline means. And and then when we circle back towards the end about revisiting where is consciousness then it starts become more appetizing that okay what can't solely exist in the brain and we haven't found it solely existing in the brain so what about this thing we call the environment and what about this you know nature nurture argument that people are still doing and then.
Psychedelics and Consciousness Exploration
00:16:59
Speaker
it kind of ends up with, oh, this is what it is.
00:17:05
Speaker
And I love that you said, uh, psychonautical adventures, um, yeah, they kind of give you a door, a doorway into understanding consciousness. And if it wasn't for psychonautic adventures, uh, for me, I don't think I would ever come close to understanding consciousness, uh, in the way that I currently do. So, uh, for you guys, um, were psychedelic experiences essential for your understanding of consciousness?
00:17:35
Speaker
I would have to say, yeah, I would say that for, so we've had different experiences with this. I was very lucky that my first foray into psychedelics and every foray since has been with this fellow who has had quite a bit more, let's say, experience in that regard. So I came in to psychedelic experimentation and medicine work with a
00:18:01
Speaker
It was never about losing yourself or there's, there's always an element of finding your edge. You do want to, the point of medicine work is to take that journey, to challenge yourself, to see what you can discover. But it was always in a controlled container. And it was always with someone that I knew who I trusted. And it was almost always a one-on-one experience. Like we have gone out.
00:18:24
Speaker
into public and have these experiences, but I've always had that anchor. So for me, I've always been sort of in tune with the concepts of consciousness and the concepts of unity. And I've always been a very empathetic person and trying to figure out
00:18:46
Speaker
where that was in my spiritual work, but it was sort of the beginning of psychedelic experimentation that gave me new vocabulary for explaining it. And I guess, yes. So in that regard, it was fundamental to understanding because it gave me new terms and new tools for approaching the work I was already doing.
00:19:13
Speaker
It's great. You guys, uh, you remind me so much of my fiance and I, uh, it's almost the same, uh, the same dynamic. Yeah. That's cool. Does she come on with you and Josh over now? I'm sorry, with you and your brother. Um, no, she hasn't yet. Um, but eventually we are going to have an episode. I'm going to either record with like just her and I, or maybe we'll bring her in in some way, shape or form. But when she's ready, we're going to do that for sure. Cool. Nice. Well, congratulations on, um, engagement. When are y'all getting married?
00:19:42
Speaker
I'm not really sure yet. We're not really in so much of a rush. We've been together since we were like, I'm 33 now. And we met when I was 17. So we don't take anything like we don't rush anything we take our time. It's been like the common theme of our relationship. So and yes, like Adelix,
00:20:01
Speaker
They actually quote-unquote saved our relationship. We were going through some tough times at one point. But yeah, the experiences that we've had with psychedelics have changed everything for us. And I can see it in your eyes too, in both of your eyes, that you guys have connected on a whole different level as a result of these substances.
00:20:25
Speaker
We have, I was actually gonna ask you, have you ever done this with your fiance where, you know, you'll maybe take a substance or just take a puff of cannabis or something and then do eye gazing where you stare at her directly in the eyes and she stares at you directly in the eyes for like five or 10 minutes?
00:20:40
Speaker
We've done this on mushrooms, yes. What happened for you? Oh my god, it felt like we merged or something. It was amazing. And then as this was happening, we put our heads against each other's head. It made us merge even more, it felt like. It was such a strange experience. Exactly, yes, yes. And it's like our brains,
00:21:07
Speaker
uh, intertwined with one another and weaved some like new joint consciousness with one another. It was, it was beautiful. Dude. So that alone, that experience alone would probably, you know, make you guys way more in sync, you know, get you on the same page. You're like, okay, well at one point we were one person last night. How the hell did that happen? And now you're over there and I'm over here. So then it's like, yeah.
00:21:32
Speaker
But these things, I mean, they are, I, um, I have a tiny piece. Uh, we have an experience that, you know, we love to do that exercise or eye gazing or whatever. And, um, it basically produced that exact same experience that you're talking about. And I wrote a tiny little something that I could share and she could set up the story, um, with what happened. Yeah. Cause I mean, this is one of those experiences that really gave me.
00:21:57
Speaker
more confidence about how to write this thing. Um, and, and that, you know, when this experience happens, if it happens once, it's like, okay, well, maybe that was just a weird trip, but if it happens multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple times, like every time you do it, like then, okay, well, maybe there's something true here. And if you keep pulling that thread, then eventually you probably write a book like we did. And, uh, yeah, I mean, cause you'll have no other choice. That's, that's what happened for me. Yeah. Yeah. Please, uh, please share if, uh, if you don't mind.
00:22:27
Speaker
Okay, cool. Joshua tree. Joshua tree. Shut us up. Joshua tree. So when we were living in California, obviously the best way to kind of get out of the city is you go to Joshua tree. It's about two and a half hours out of the city. It's this beautiful natural boulder park with forest and a whole bunch of different terrains. You can walk over and explore.
00:22:49
Speaker
And especially when you're altered for us, it's like, it's like when you're climbing up a boulder, it feels like you're climbing up your own face. So we love it. So on this particular night, we'll also add the caveat that we were not a couple at this point. We actually didn't start dating until the night he proposed, which is a whole other story. We were just sort of best friends. Well, not sort of, we were best friends and soulmates and just hadn't had that.
00:23:20
Speaker
that moment of mutual recognition yet. But there was extreme mental connection, always. Right from the beginning. And love, just it wasn't, you know, it was platonic, I guess. And like I said, a lot of, all of my experiences really have been with him. So it was this one-on-one experience. We were just camping, we were best friends. It was, it was Elle, yes. That night we actually started with San Pedro. No, we had Pedro. Mescaline.
00:23:49
Speaker
which is also the active ingredient peyote for those who don't know. So we started with that and these things can vary in potency from each cutting from cutting to cutting. And so we ended up layering with about 100 to 150 micrograms of LSD on top of that. And that's when things got to get really interesting. Yes, because the mescaline is very grounding.
00:24:16
Speaker
It's a beautiful substance for nature work because you feel kind of like the pulse of everything. So we're already very grounded, but it was one of those times where we're like, okay, the container is controlled. We have each other. Let's test it this time. Let's take a little booster and see what we can find.
00:24:36
Speaker
And then I don't know which part you're going to rid off at. But basically, at this point, we get to a point where we're tossing glow sticks and there's bats flying overhead.
Intense Psychedelic Experience and Shared Consciousness
00:24:45
Speaker
And we're having we're starting to feel the moment of unity and nature is responding. Yeah.
00:24:54
Speaker
So if you remember, like Batman begins like he stands up when he's in the Batcave and there's like all these bats swirling around him. That's how it was. We were standing out. Feel them. The bat was like just like, yeah, making their little high pitched sounds all around us. So that's the trippiest thing. And then we got in the backseat of my car and and then we locked eyes and then this happened. OK. So we're sitting in the backseat of my car, Lindy, with her back against the middle console, me in the rear passenger seat.
00:25:24
Speaker
And we catch each other's glance, our eyes lock onto one another, and so begins the game, the challenge. The look that means a download is imminent. Normally when we stare at each other in the eyes long enough, a kind of telepathy ensues, but this time we transcended even telepathy. Lindy transcended even genders. Staring at her, I'm almost always aware that we're in the back of my car, but not too long after the download starts, this thing starts to get heavy and deep. The fractal that we are starts unfolding itself.
00:25:51
Speaker
unpacking its complexity only in reverse, like it's becoming more simple. Two humans start to become one and concepts of unity, love, and all events being one event start to become more familiar. I remember her face starting to morph and change as she started to look like my old college roommate, Mike. The deeper we went, the closer to the mental singularity, the scarier it got. Descending from all things normal,
00:26:16
Speaker
Lindy's face started to become more mannish, somehow less familiar and at the same time, too familiar. I remember getting really scared, staring at the singularity for too long can't be good for anybody. And here I was.
00:26:29
Speaker
looking at quote unquote super Jay. So this is the hybridized face. Somehow we merged and I'm looking at myself, a face that is half female and half male. And it's just all too familiar. Although it never quite happened just like this before. I feel as if I'm back here again somehow. And because it's so far from whatever version of Jay that's speaking to you now, all I want to do is go back, go back where time feels normal.
00:26:57
Speaker
and where there's some kind of separation between what I call myself and what I call other.
00:27:03
Speaker
But Lindy, all she wants to do is see more, to reset, to find our edge. In this moment, the entire universe looks just like a human, only with no background whatsoever. It's just this human-shaped object, the transcendental object at the end of time, projecting itself out of nowhere. In some ways, it looks three-dimensional, but way more defined and with way more dimensionality than any object I've ever seen or could possibly see in the future. As she starts to become more mannish, I can no longer see her long, strawberry blonde hair.
00:27:32
Speaker
She now has become the highest version of me. This guy that created himself exists alone and plays games with his lower self to help pass an eternity. I tried to break free to go back, but Lindy insisted we keep going. Next thing I know looking at Lindy was like looking at a four dimensional human extending out of nowhere.
00:27:53
Speaker
In some ways, it felt like there was this mirror curtain between her and I, like this Alec Mack or Terminator 2 metallic mirror-like substance that divided the barrier between her world and mine, very similar to the giant mirrored object they find in the movie Sphere. From an outside perspective, like a fly on the wall, let's say, the scene must have looked like this. And basically, I've just drawn a photo of a guy staring at another guy in a mirror, but the mirror isn't fixed.
00:28:19
Speaker
It's liquid. So a human is looking at itself in this mirror type substance. However, each glance from either side of the mirror, her or me, causes a ripple in the other person's reality. It's almost done. I noticed this, and that's when we say the phrase we always say. It's like looking in a mirror that's always changing.
00:28:40
Speaker
In the same way that a familiar situation can have a déjà vu feeling attached to it, this moment had a déjà vu scariness written all over it. It's as close to the singularity as you could possibly get. And I'm sure we only said, it's like looking in a mirror that's always changing, always reacting, always evolving, only once. But for some reason, this line formed an echo in my head that never seemed to fade.
00:29:03
Speaker
I remember following my eye line to the edge of her projection in the mirror and then watching this metallic fractal mirror move and change and heal wherever I looked at it. Wherever I moved my eyes, the substance moved as if it knew or perhaps was just reacting to my observation of it in real time. Then I saw Lindy slash super me ascend to an even higher place.
00:29:25
Speaker
Nothingness. I watched as she looked like she was nodding off, like she was falling asleep, but really she was either creating a new universe or maybe drifting even further away from this one. Her head, which looked like a guy during this time, was now falling backwards, the same way someone's head looked when they'd just fallen asleep on a plane.
00:29:43
Speaker
The way her eyes darted back and forth underneath her eyelids, it looked as if she was downloading information, or perhaps she was just ascending to the place of highest transcendence, where all there is is just the great self we combine to form, where the self just contemplates ideas of infinity and nothingness. Feeling the edge of my limit, I called her back from this rabbit hole of thought loops and said through telepathy, let's go back, only for Lindy to say, go back? All sad-like. You mean I have to be a human again?
00:30:13
Speaker
I have to be a girl again. The only form you'll accept me as. Yes. Yes. I say with my eyes, let's go back because this place is too scary. And in that moment, Lindy started coding. She closes her eyes and it looks like she's coding our future. And this was the moment when she looked most like my old college roommate, Mike through her eyes and through the movements of her eyes, I could tell that she was coding. She has stops and says, Hey, quite abruptly.
00:30:39
Speaker
After that, she sticks her hand back out like we did during the mirror time. And when we touched hands, she was, she was doing this as if to remind me, dude, we're the same person. Don't forget that. And then the coding continued. Seconds later, things like my backseat and the dome light of my car start to become more prevalent. Gravity ego notions of Jay being a separate entity suddenly come flooding back. And I thought to myself, this is all getting way too sinister, way too real. And all I want to do is go back to being silly.
00:31:06
Speaker
10 minutes before the mirror stare down, we were outside throwing glow sticks. And all I want to do is spend time doing something like that. Lindy begrudgingly obliged and we finally broke eye contact. We both have to look at something other than ourselves for a second, if that's even possible. And then I say something to the effect of let's both let's back, let's go back outside and off we went back to reality. Whatever that means. Wow. That is, that's amazing. Such a beautifully written story too. So awesome.
00:31:36
Speaker
Little trip report. Writing sample. Yeah, that's not in the book. I've had that same experience. Yeah. What's interesting to me, and you say that during that experience, you were trying to come back to reality, come back to a baseline, whereas Lindy, you were trying to go deeper and trying to go farther in. It tends to be that way. This might be a generalization, but
00:32:05
Speaker
I feel like women more so go toward like, they have more courage in psychedelic states. Whereas men, I feel like we're more addicted to grounding ourselves and coming back and being safe. You know what I mean? Because I feel that with my fiance as well. Sometimes she just goes off to some,
00:32:24
Speaker
some crazy places and just, and just goes, you know, launches and blasts off. And it's a, it's amazing. Whereas, uh, during those times when I see that happening, I'm trying to get everyone to like calm down and to come back. So, uh, I can definitely relate to that story for sure. Yeah. Uh, she, we had a, we've had some differing experiences and I've, I've gotten trapped in some of these places where it's like, I felt like I was trapped for 10,000 years.
00:32:51
Speaker
And I get trapped, but it's always scary for him. It's always play for me. That's the difference is we were having similar experiences, but.
00:33:02
Speaker
And whenever we've discussed it in the past, it's that he's, he's already been there and doesn't want to go back there. And I just, I've, I've been to those places you can consider scary, but for me, they're still always learning experiences and they're unique and you sought them out. Remember you, you took this medicine, you were looking for something, or at least for me, that's what it's always been. And so I, no matter what, no matter what the experience is, I try and just take it and
00:33:30
Speaker
And take what it gives me and know that I'm there For a limited time to learn something really precious So did that experience for you guys Going back to the consciousness aspect of it did that experience Teach you or sort of show you in a way that Consciousness is shared. It doesn't just come from each individual brain Yes, I mean
00:34:01
Speaker
I like to say that, yes, consciousness is everywhere because it is all that there is, and every conscious being is just an agent of experience. Jay likes using this analogy with the five fingers, the five fingers of consciousness, and each of us is a finger, just reaching out and having different
00:34:24
Speaker
you get a different viewpoint from every agent of consciousness, looking at the same thing. And the more you recognize that, the more viewpoints you gather and realize that you are all one thing, receiving the same thing, then you get a much clearer view as to what the thing is, because you're looking at it from all angles.
00:34:44
Speaker
Yeah. Are there, are there any current philosophies that are prevalent, whether they be religious or philosophical that you see are close to grasping this concept? A hundred percent. So, um, interestingly, are you probably, do you know Alan Watts? Well, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Um, have you ever heard him do his, uh, there's basically three great models of the world that have ever been produced.
00:35:11
Speaker
So for any listeners that haven't, he does this bit where he's like, basically there's only three great models of the universe that have ever been put forward. And the first is that the universe is something made like an object or it's crafted like a potter's clay or something.
00:35:30
Speaker
So what goes along with this first view is that, you know, there are conscious entities that are in this world, but the world itself is blind, unintelligible force. So God or whatever, or some kind of, or maybe it's just the conditions of the universe, like the physics created a universe. And the important point is, you know,
00:35:55
Speaker
This table is not alive, is completely stupid, has no awareness, is not part of consciousness, but this thing is. And it isolates us as the conscious entities. And it doesn't even, you know, anyway, so that's the first model. The second model is kind of like a, uh, Eastern or Chinese model and looks at the universe as if it were an organism. So something that grew.
00:36:17
Speaker
And the third model comes from Hindu mythology, which looks at the universe as something that plays that there'll be universe is fundamentally a drama. And so, you know, this great self, they call it, there is only one thing. And that thing is the self gets lost in games and likes to play hide and seek basically. And so, um, when you combine the last two models, um, so the Chinese model and the Hindu model, you approach something that is.
00:36:47
Speaker
telling you what consciousness is because the first model sounds very scientific. It's like, yeah, um, there were initial conditions and, uh, you know, later consciousness emerges, but it's basically the first model shoots itself in the foot because it's, it's pausing that we know what life is and we know what life isn't when we don't.
00:37:05
Speaker
We don't have a good definition for what life is. And so if you think that the universe is blind unintelligible force, you've made an assumption, a fundamental assumption about the nature of reality that has no scientific basis. It simplifies it to animated matter.
00:37:20
Speaker
So I think the most satisfying one is the Hindu mythology myth. Um, so that there is this thing, there is only one thing and they call it the self or the great self. And this self likes to get lost in these certain games. And the game is consciousness and the game of consciousness works like this, you know, the, so, all right, this'll get, this'll bring it back to us.
00:37:42
Speaker
So the reason why I get scared and want to come back is because I've gotten trapped in a place that is called limbo, or I would call it limbo. Um, it would be described as limbo. It felt like a time dialed thought loop. And I felt like I was there for 10,000 years. And I don't take, I don't say that lightly. Um, now I hesitate going back there again, because you know, when you enter into this timeless dimension and many people describe it as internal or infinite or timeless.
00:38:08
Speaker
you know, time doesn't make sense. So when you're there, you're there forever. And when you decide to come back, it's you always decide to come back. So the state of Nirvana is something that is not separate from here and now like, this is Nirvana, if you have the right perspective. But when you take a psychedelic or something like that, and it
00:38:27
Speaker
You know, blows out your default mode network and, you know, your sense of self completely goes away and your ability to process and analyze time and extract yourself from the present moment and think about anything other than this moment right here. That all melts away. And you're sunk in this moment that is the eternal now.
00:38:45
Speaker
So I always choose to come back to here to this moment because there's something my soul wants to do. It wants to do something in the place called Nirvana. That's ultimate stillness, ultimate centeredness. It's a, it's a state of non choosing. You're not, you're not choosing anything and you're not wanting anything. You're untouched by fear and desire. But when you choose to do something, you come back into this moment, which is the field of time that we're interacting and playing with.
00:39:14
Speaker
And, uh, I always choose to come back because what else are you going to do? If you can stay in Nirvana forever, never, never. And I have like, I've, I've been there, you know, but I come back because I want to share it with other people. I want to take this knowledge and then somehow repackage it in a way that other people can understand that our narratives are what locks us out of infinity. We, we don't want to be there. You actually like problems.
00:39:44
Speaker
I'll tell you, you're speaking my language. Um, I've had experiences very similar where, you know, it's, it is in, you're in that timeless realm, that timeless dimension and the.
00:39:58
Speaker
The desire, at least for me, the desire to come back to this realm and to ground myself again, usually puts me into a loop of insanity. And if you have ever been insane for 10,000 years, it's a rough experience and it will definitely, oh yes.
00:40:17
Speaker
It felt as if I've had experiences where it asked me like telepathically if I want to understand what schizophrenia is and then it just like dipped my face into schizophrenia for what felt like forever. And man, those experiences, like you said, can be so scary. But I find that I've learned quite a bit from those experiences and they've solidified my respect for these substances.
00:40:42
Speaker
Um, but I want to touch on, uh, you mentioned the default mode network. And as I understand that is, uh, one of the essential functions of psychedelics is they sort of switch that network off according to, um, popular science. So can you talk a little bit about the effects that that has on a human's consciousness? Sure. Um, so just to prime the audience with what the default my network is, um,
00:41:07
Speaker
When it was first discovered in I think 2001 by Dr. Marcus Rakel, he had people in an FMRI machine and was just having them look at certain things like look at these crosshairs, look at this, focus on this ball. And he noticed that whenever he didn't give people a task to do that this network in the brain started lighting up. And so, um, you know, because this is what the brain was seemingly defaulting to whenever it wasn't engaged in some sort of goal oriented task.
00:41:32
Speaker
Uh, he called it the default mode network. Now it's kind of a misnomer, I think, because, um, you know, our brains aren't supposed to default to thinking about themselves. That is, I believe a condition of our upbringing. Um,
00:41:50
Speaker
You know, if, if you meditate, meditation is something that dampens and turns off the default my network. So the default my network is something that turns on and gets more blood flow. It's this network in your brain that gets more blood flow whenever you're thinking about the past or thinking about the future. So mental time travel, extracting yourself in the present moment and.
00:42:08
Speaker
you know, thinking about next week's meeting or, you know, last week's horrible fight you had or whatever it happens to be. And so people that are depressed tend to have hyperactive default mode networks because they're, and, and so they get trapped in what is called repetitive, ruminative thinking.
Default Mode Network and Mental Health
00:42:26
Speaker
So repetitious thoughts about themselves, the ruminating about something that happened in the past.
00:42:31
Speaker
And so anxiety is basically the same thing as depression, but it's in reverse. So instead of worrying about the past, people are focused on the future and they're worried about what's going to happen. And so, you know, either, either way, anxiety or depression, you're disengaging with the present and you're activating your default network and it's hyperactive. So, um, you'll find anxiety and depression, both underpinned by a hyperactive default network.
00:42:56
Speaker
And so there are practices like flows or chopping into flow states will turn, turn off or subdue the default network. And, uh, meditation will turn off or subdue the default mode network. And also psychedelics will do that for you. Um, and, but the way they do it is chemically induced and it literally disintegrates. It's like this hurricane that comes in and disintegrates, you know, this network, all these nodes in your brain from connecting and forming.
00:43:24
Speaker
And, um, you know, when that happens, it's like you get this. Well, without the proper functioning, the default my network, you're not able to regulate sensory information in the way that normally is. So you've lost inhibition. You've lost control of how, like the dials of hearing or the dials of sound or the dials of touch. Like, have you ever had chaotic experiences where, you know, it's, it's like, you know, this is hard to explain.
00:43:52
Speaker
Have you ever had chaotic experiences where like your senses are super chaotic, completely different than how it is right now? Yeah. Sort of like a synesthesia experience. Yes. Yeah, exactly. So, um, yeah. So when that defaultment network comes out or sorry, it is disintegrated, uh, synesthetic experiences will definitely happen. And I've had plenty of those, um, because you only have so much brain power to take in all of the different sensory data. So.
00:44:22
Speaker
You know, we like to use the experience, the 200, 200 bits of information. So imagine you have 200 bits of information every second, every second that you're, that you can process, but you're only, you're taking in like tens of thousands of bits of information. 11, we'll get this clean. So 11, so the.
00:44:41
Speaker
The estimate is about 11 million bits of information are streaming in through your, um, all your sense organs every single second, but your conscious self is only capable of handling about 200 bits at, you know, every single second. So divide that up by your five senses. And then you have a dial for each of those senses that you can, if someone says your name, you know, you, you go from 200 or 20 bits to 80 bits for auditory. If you're trying to write out your social security number, you, your,
00:45:11
Speaker
Sensation of touch goes from 10 to 30 because you need to get that right But then when you are having a flow state or an all any any altered state of consciousness really those dials get there They get minds of their own and don't necessarily respond to the stimulus that is being presented. They just kind of Start floating around and that's how you get synesthetic experiences. Yeah, like you have
00:45:35
Speaker
You lose it's called thalamic gating. So all these senses with the exception of olfactory prop go through the thalamus in the brain, which is like the relay station of the brain. And so this relay station then sends out, um, these signals. So it interprets them in a way that's like, okay, well, this is hearing, this is, this is, uh, this is touch and then sends it to the appropriate spots in the brain. But if that doesn't happen correctly.
00:45:57
Speaker
You know, if you lose the thalamic gating, then that's when chaotic synesthetic, synesthetic experiences will start to happen. And that could be really scary because you always, people always run into the same thought as like, you're going to be like this forever. Am I going to be crazy or schizophrenic or whatever it happens to be? Am I going to feel like this forever? So you have these governors and modulators and you lose that inhibition and you think it's never going to come back, but it does.
00:46:24
Speaker
Is there a particular reason that you know of that the old factory system is kind of left out of this, as you said? Um, I think it's because it's one of the oldest senses. Um, I, I wouldn't want to quote myself on that, but, um, I do know that is the exception that doesn't pass, pass through the thalamus. It goes straight to the brain. Um, yeah. So it's why it's one of the reasons why it's one of the strongest senses of smell. And, you know, there was a movie made, um,
00:46:53
Speaker
Uh, with Jim Carrey, where it was like eternal sunshine. That's spotless mind. Right. Wait, wasn't it? Someone was, they wanted to remove their sense of smell. Well, you, I'm not sure. It is a great movie. I love that movie, but I don't remember that particular part.
00:47:10
Speaker
Okay. Well, they wanted to like stamp out the memory of the old person, but I think maybe I'm confusing with someone else, like that wanted to like remove their sense of smell, but you just don't understand how these senses are all intertwined. Like, you know, you think taste is, for those who can't see, there was a cat walking in front of you. Hey buddy, what you doing? He wants to be part of it.
00:47:32
Speaker
Let's move him out of the way real quick. I'm so sorry. No, see the thing about, we love animals is because they are sunk in the present moment, right? They're completely sense present contrast that to us, which, you know, can extract ourselves from this moment right here. And, uh, I think about other things rabbit who comes in and hops around her ankles. Yeah. Nice.
00:47:58
Speaker
Yeah, they are, uh, they are wise beyond what we can say, I think. Yeah. Um, yeah, I definitely consider my animals like a guru to me almost. You know, they, they teach me a lot about life. I agree. Yeah. How to just be man. Yeah. But we, oh, we make it so hard being humans. No. Warren has definitely taught me that I am a bunny. I am a bunny through and through. He just wants to play and be comfy and just ease.
00:48:23
Speaker
always in the moment even he during our setup this morning he chewed on one of our cables and But it's just like it's just what bunnies do. He's just
Consciousness in Animals and Humans
00:48:32
Speaker
in the moment. He's just do something shiny was dangling in front of his face and it's interesting about animals too is like I feel like
00:48:40
Speaker
Like all animals feel like they are human because human is just a description. It's not a biological description. It's a, it's a self description. You know, it's like, I am me. My species is central and then everything else sort of lies outside of that.
00:48:57
Speaker
And to me that's a very interesting part of consciousness is animal consciousness. So do you think that animal consciousness relates in some way to human consciousness? Like are we sharing that with just our species or do we share consciousness with all animals?
00:49:16
Speaker
I think all animals, there have been way too many moments where, and it's kind of always, I've always had many different pets in my life as I grew up, but especially since being out on my own and having my own companion animals, it's a whole other level. Like he, he, the bunny is definitely my emotional support animal. He, he, he's in tune with me all the time. I'm in tune with him. And there's more than just.
00:49:43
Speaker
a lump of fur that's eating something right there. He knows more than I do about some stuff. Okay, yeah. It's crazy that some people don't think that animals are conscious.
00:49:58
Speaker
I just, I'm, but then that's probably because they don't want to, you know, maybe it has something to do with the way that they're treat their animals or something like that. You know, I mean, I don't know. I'm just speculating, but, um, like, how do you not see like this animal? Like our, our bunny rabbit will come over from the other side of the room, bump me on my leg because he wants to be pet. That's fourth. That's foresight. Like he wanted, he wanted that. It's just random.
00:50:25
Speaker
Yeah. Like you weren't a line of sight. He had to think about you and think, Hey, I want a section right now. Let me go find the person that's going to give me a section and let's have that bonding moment. Yeah. And possibly food too.
00:50:39
Speaker
And they also have extensive ability to predict the future as well. Like for instance, like my dog, every like 4th of July around when the fireworks go off, it takes him time to acclimate then to being okay with being out at night because he associates nighttime with fireworks and he's deathly afraid of fireworks. So super interesting that animals are able to predict the future based off of like current stimulus as well.
00:51:08
Speaker
That is, oh, man. I feel like that's a sense. Yeah. And that's a sense that we share. They're just way more in tune with it. What is the study with how your body can sense things before your brain does? Is it the Iowa gambling task? Iowa gambling task. That's what I was thinking of. Have you heard of the Iowa gambling task? I have not.
00:51:29
Speaker
A quick history for the listener. You want to do it? Yeah, you go ahead. I'll chime in. All right. You're better at it. So this is one of my favorite studies out there. It's called the Iowa Gambling Task. And basically the way it works is there is a researcher and a participant, and the researcher sets out four decks of cards. Sometimes this is done on a computer, but oh well, we'll just imagine it's real. So a researcher sets out four decks of cards and invites a participant to come participate.
00:51:54
Speaker
So the participant just starts drawing from the decks and they're told they need to win as much money as possible. They don't know anything about the decks. They just know, okay, I pulled this ACE and I get money. Take it away. All right. Great. I pulled this too. And I get money. Okay. I pull this, you know, like, and each one of the decks, the participant.
00:52:12
Speaker
What they don't know is that the decks aren't random. They're rigged. And so, um, the idea is to figure out, you know, like what kind of game is being played. And so what's interesting about this is, um, they'll hook up the participant with a GSR, so a galvanic skin response. So it measures the tiny sweat fluctuations in their skin. Um, so it's kind of like a lie detector test. And so, um,
00:52:35
Speaker
What they notice is that people will start drawing from the decks and at about 20 or 30 cards, they consciously work out. Okay. Deck A is the best deck. You know, it takes about 20 or 30 cards for them to consciously work it out. But the kicker is after only 10 cards.
00:52:51
Speaker
the body starts sweating. So you start to see this, the researchers start to see a spike in the galvanic skin response, indicating that the unconscious mind, the body has already figured out and worked out which decks are the most profitable decks. And so it's sending you a message saying, don't pick from this deck, don't pick from this deck, you're sweating as you pick from deck B, you sweating as you pick from deck C, and then 10 or 20 cards later, the conscious self works out. Oh, deck a deck is the good deck. These are the bad decks.
00:53:22
Speaker
So we think, I was going, yeah. Is that like a similar thing to when you touch, like you just saying earlier, when you touch the stove, your conscious body will like take your hand away before your mind thinks of it.
00:53:35
Speaker
Right. So yeah, you're, you're, it's an unconscious reaction, um, a bodily reaction. And so it's kind of like an instinctual, uh, thing, just pull it away. Um, and so I, I would say that they're in the same family, but, um, the beauty of the Iowa gambling test for me is that what it, what it tells us is that, you know, even when we think this, this simple game is all top down logic. You're actually playing with, you know, your physiology is, is giving you hints. It's actually driving your.
00:54:05
Speaker
your ability to understand which decks are bad and which decks are good. So even when you think it's all top down logic, your physiology is playing a part in your decision making. Wow. Very interesting. Yeah. That's something that, that you're taught in school. It's not something that like a type of, uh, like frame of reference point that you would normally think of. Um, that's super interesting.
00:54:28
Speaker
I would say a sense like that is something that, for example, animals are just more in tune with. They don't have as much ego driven into their prefrontal cortex and clouding their judgment and coloring their world so they can respond more immediately to bodily sense.
00:54:47
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, they, they literally do not have the self-reflexive consciousness that we do. So they can't think about thinking. Um, they don't have that default by network. You know, that's not even something that children are born with. It's something that unpacks and develops over our lifetime. So, you know, right as you're kind of getting into puberty, that's when the default my network really starts to solidify and your brain isn't even done completely growing until you're 25 years old.
00:55:09
Speaker
And that's when the prefrontal cortex really comes online and you're able to think about what you do before you do it. But when you're 16, 15, you're way more impulsive because you're kind of more animalistic. And that's pretty much technically true. You're operating more of your amygdala and less out of your prefrontal cortex. So would you say that it's safe to say that the default mode network is sort of the home of the ego?
00:55:34
Speaker
Yes, it is, uh, the most likely candidate for the ego we've ever seen. It is positive as the neural substrates of the ego, because, um, if this is hyperactive, then you get disorders of consciousness and dysfunction. You get, um, OCD, depression, anxiety. Um, these sorts of things would be indicative of a hyperactive default network. And when it is, you know, suppressed, that's when you get bliss from a flow state or something like that. I don't, did we talk about flow states yet? I don't think so.
00:56:04
Speaker
But you're aware of them. I am. Yes. In what, in what way, or can you share experience of a flow state that you've had?
00:56:11
Speaker
Well, I mean, for instance, right now I consider myself in a flow state. Whenever I have conversations on this podcast, I, I go into sort of a flow. Um, I also saw, I went to school for graphic design and whenever I'm doing a project, whether it be for the podcast, which I produce the art for or anything other than that, even, um, I find myself in a flow state. It's a state almost where, um, time doesn't exist in like the same linear way in which we, uh, we describe it.
00:56:41
Speaker
And I think it does, it simulates, um, a psychedelic experience or it's similar in the way that I think it lowers the function of the default mode network in a way where you're, you're sort of in an ego, this state.
00:56:56
Speaker
Exactly. Did you hit the nail on the head, man? That's perfect. Um, yeah. So the only thing I'll attack on is that flow states can happen in almost any profession or thing that you're doing that you're skating, dancing, writing poetry. You said graphic design coding. Um, like I get them in writing or snowboarding.
00:57:14
Speaker
I'm but yeah so when they happen on the technical term is transient hyper frontality i'm by this neuroscientist arnie d trick and you know he he i love his term he calls it a mental singularity basically that's what happens.
00:57:29
Speaker
So, so transient meaning, uh, temporary hypo, meaning slow. And then, uh, frontality being your prefrontal cortex. So your prefrontal cortex starts to wink out of existence during these flow state moments. And I would, I would say that flow states are just a miniature transcendent experience or psychedelic experience. They're just tastes of what it's like. And so, but people report being most happy when they're in these states. And what do these states, what, like, what, um,
00:57:57
Speaker
What defines these states? Loss of ego. So loss of that inner critic and that narrator that's telling you, Oh, you shouldn't do this. Or what are you like, you know, that's always like judging you and stuff. The ego is always the judge. So you lose that you lose your sense of time and then you have access to more information and you're actually performing at your peak. You know, flow states are.
00:58:18
Speaker
behind every, you know, this would be Steven Kotler that has said this, that you'll find a flow state behind every Olympic medal, almost every Olympic medal. And I would agree with that. You know, it's when you've maxed yourself out with challenges, but your skills are also there. So it's like a 60 40 ratio. So challenge that if it's too much, if it's too much challenge, you know, you're not going to be in a flow state, you're going to give up and have anxiety. But if it's just the right 60 40, then
00:58:46
Speaker
You know, narration and time disappears. That's the transient hyperfrontality. And then you're just sunk doing the pattern, the, whatever it is, the coding or graphic design. And, you know, 20 minutes go by or sorry, two hours go by and it felt like 20 minutes.
00:59:01
Speaker
And it seems like those flow states happen more frequently after, say, you learn the skill, like say you're drawing or something like that. When you're still learning the technical skill of drawing, it seems like a flow state may not happen quite as often. But when you have gotten the technique down and your mind is able to sort of bypass the focusing of the technique itself, you can lose yourself in the action of art or the action of whatever you're doing, whether it be
00:59:30
Speaker
you know, a sport like you mentioned as well. Yeah. I liken it to in computer language, it's the difference between coding and hitting execute. Once you've learned the technique, you've done all of the coding and then it's just, all right, I have the procedure written out. Now it's just hitting execute. And if I coded everything correctly, if I learned it all correctly, it should flow smoothly. Yeah. If I didn't, then we will find out soon where those bugs are.
00:59:58
Speaker
Oh my God, I was going down the mountain on my birthday this last year. And I got injured that day because I'm going down. I'm like, I'm dropped in a flow state. I'm listening to a music mix that I made. I'm going fast. It is one of the faster times I've ever been. And I'm like, Oh my God, I'm in a flow state. I look at my shadow that's on the ground. And I think how cool am I? And then bam, head over head. Like I wipe out worse than I have in three years.
01:00:24
Speaker
Was that snowboarding skiing snowboarding? Okay. Okay. Yeah, it was. Uh, but I mean, just goes to show you like I was perfectly fine until my conscious self got involved and was like, Oh, look how cool I am. It was like, Oh yeah. Easy, easy to cut that off, right? To cut off the flow state with the conscious mind.
01:00:44
Speaker
Yeah, but it's interesting that people report like that's, that's where they, you know, the, the lead researcher on this Mihai chicks in Mihai. Um, he has a Ted talk about, you know, um, happiness. And it's interesting cause he did this research for like 20 or 30 years and people report being most happy when they're in flow. So when their ego isn't there. Interesting.
01:01:11
Speaker
And I think that also happens after, right? The experience as well, like, uh, the fulfillment that comes from completing a task. Does that have something to do with the flow state as well? Yeah. I mean, um, so the flow states, they're underpinned by, um, about six neurotransmitters that get released in the brain. So there's, um, help me on this one. So there's dopamine, serotonin, anandamide, endorphins, noradrenaline, and sometimes oxytocin.
01:01:40
Speaker
So it's a very rewarding state to be in. The technical term is autotelic because researchers don't like to say addictive, but it is kind of an addictive state. But you do it for the reason that it's a peak performance. And so people find out how amazing their attention is and how scattered it is outside of a flow state.
01:01:59
Speaker
So I think the benefits of flow states, one of them is like, okay, I just performed, I just went down that mountain faster than I ever have and did more tricks than I ever have. So like, you know, if that's what's possible, like what's possible next time. And so you're, you're kind of wanting to get back there and, and push yourself to that next level. And then before you know it, you do this enough times and then you are an Olympian or you're a top performer in whatever field.
Self-love and True Self Alignment for Happiness
01:02:25
Speaker
So, but here's a question for you. Mm-hmm.
01:02:29
Speaker
What's the opposite of a flow state? That is a good question. I'm not sure I've ever thought about that. Hmm. Probably some sort of, uh, hubris or ego state, I would think where you're, uh, you're thinking too much about the future. Thinking too much about the past and probably, uh,
01:02:57
Speaker
However, you can find yourself outside the here and now I would think would be the opposite. Yeah. Can I label that for you? Absolutely. Please. Depression. Anxiety. Hyperactive default mode network is depression and anxiety. Hypoactive default mode network or just completely gone. That's flow states. Which expect, which side of that spectrum do you want to be on more often?
01:03:24
Speaker
Where you're feeling, yeah, where you're feeling aligned, supremely aligned, never felt more aligned in your life or where you're like, nothing feels good. I hate life. I don't want to be here. Man. So that basically trashes the idea of a chemical imbalance causing depression.
01:03:42
Speaker
Yes, the chemical imbalance theory is wrong. I released a video about this. I want to help popularize that we're responsible for our own brains. And this isn't to say that, you know,
01:03:57
Speaker
First off, let me just say there is no test that you could get. That's like, Oh, I have low amounts of serotonin in my brain. We can't test for that. So, you know, it's, it's someone's self-diagnosis that saying I have a bad brain. That's literally what I've heard people say before. I just have low amounts of serotonin. How do you know that? Did you just take MDMA? Maybe that's, that's true. If you just took it last night. Yeah. You've, you know, you've, you've borrowed the happiness of.
01:04:23
Speaker
tomorrow and you've experienced it today. That seemed to be made for me. And you feel it for the next week or a month or however much you take. It costs you something. It costs you that happiness from the next week. I don't know where I was going with that.
01:04:38
Speaker
Chemical imbalances. Oh, chemical imbalances. Yeah. But I would say that, you know, we were just discussing about how when you are in flow, it increases those six neurotransmitters. Right. Is something chemically happening? Yeah. So it's something you have more control over than maybe you think.
01:04:56
Speaker
Oh yeah. Okay. So this will bookend it for us. So the idea that I try to lay out in this video I released called the, uh, universal reason why people get depressed is that, um, so you're, if you're in the right situation at the right time, performing in the right way, interacting with the field of time in a way that your body wants and your highest self wants, your body tells you it rewards you and it rewards you with these six neurotransmitters and you can't always stay in flow. It's unsustainable, but you know, we can drop into flow states.
01:05:23
Speaker
and many flow states and they're on a spectrum so um but the idea is to try to be more in line with what your entire psyche wants but when you're out of alignment your body tells you to when you're not performing at your best when you're betraying the wants and needs of what your body your bodily self needs so part of your psyche wants and needs if you're denying that and you're you know this happens to me my depression comes from when i
01:05:50
Speaker
smoke too much weed, when I eat too much, so I'm like not treating my future self with the respect that it should. I'm not treating the future, just the future as well as I should and as I know I should. And because I know that I shouldn't do this thing, it is now a lie that I am doing this thing. Mine comes from unintentional self-neglect. I like to put everyone else before myself and then it gets to a point where I have
01:06:19
Speaker
It creeps up on me and I'm like, why am I, why can't I do anything right now? Oh, it's because I've been doing everything for everybody else. Yeah. So she, yeah. So she's not taking, she's not prioritizing her own self. And if you can't love yourself, how are you supposed to love other people? And if you actually believe that we're all one thing, which I do, then you have to love yourself because yourself is the only thing that there is. So self-love is the most important thing. So absolutely. Oh, sorry.
01:06:47
Speaker
Oh, I was just gonna, I was just gonna say, you know, we're at about an hour here, and I want to be respectful of your time. Okay. And I'd like to just sort of ask you one more question. And it goes along the lines of, you know, the, the title of your book. If you could just leave us and our listeners with an idea, a nutshell idea of what consciousness is, what would you say? That you could face.
01:07:16
Speaker
I would reiterate my earlier thesis. The consciousness always is because it is all that there is. And it's through community. It's through medicine work. It's through flow states. It's through anything you can do to break down that ego, break down that default mode network that you can gain a greater understanding of it. Because once you realize that we are all conscious
01:07:45
Speaker
entities that we are all agents of experience and experiencing whatever it is that consciousness is. Once you understand that we are all that and that you can learn more from those around you, then you get a fuller view of what consciousness is.
01:08:10
Speaker
And the nutshell, that's great, by the way, I totally blanked out.
Monk's Wisdom: Life Paths and Avoiding Suffering
01:08:15
Speaker
The nutshell idea I have came from a monk that I worked with and he told me that there's basically two paths in this life. There's the path of pain and there's the path of listening.
01:08:26
Speaker
And, um, so if you don't listen to what your body is saying, what other parts of your psyche are saying, you're going to pay for it. And if you, uh, you're going to pay for it in something we call extended pain or you might label suffering, right? So, um, depression is mental suffering. Um, and I've been there so many times that I do try to listen to what, you know, that's the point of meditation for me is, is block out the self, block out what it's trying to tell me and
01:08:56
Speaker
and get it to pause and be quiet for a second so that other parts of my psyche are allowed to speak and what, what thoughts come into my head. What am I pretending not to know? And if you do that enough times, you're going to find yourself more happy and more aligned with what you really should be doing. And, um, that's, that's it for me. Well, Jay, Lindy, thank you guys so much for the wisdom. It's been a fantastic conversation. Um, uh, where can people find you?
01:09:27
Speaker
Well, you can find the book at www.consciousness.inanutshell.com.
Where to Find the Book and Authors Online
01:09:32
Speaker
So the all one word consciousness, inanutshell.com. That's also the same tag on Instagram, at consciousness in a nutshell. Or YouTube backslash J underscore Nelson and you spell out underscore. So it's J-A-Y-U-N-D-E-R-S-C-O-R-E-N-E-L-S-O-N, J underscore Nelson. And yeah, we're going to be releasing more videos soon and
01:09:55
Speaker
This book should drop September 1st, so yeah. Again, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you guys so much for joining me today. Thank you so much, Josh. Been fun.
01:12:37
Speaker
you