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41. Psychedelic Therapy with Angela Amirault
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This week we welcome Angela Amirault to the show. Angela is a therapist at The Center For Medicinal Mindfulness in Boulder, Colorado where she works with clients as a psychedelic guide. She holds advanced credentialing in Mindfulness-Based Psychedelic Therapy, she has a Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology from Saint Mary’s University and a Graduate Diploma in Counseling and Psychotherapy from Dublin City University in Ireland. For a full list of credentials, to take a look at her practitioner’s statement, and to contact Angela, visit the links below.
https://medicinalmindfulness.org/ https://www.instagram.com/alteredhealing/ https://www.instagram.com/medicinalmindfulness/
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Music By Nathan Willis RIP
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Transcript
Introduction and Credentials of Angela Amiro
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pursuit of Infinity. In this week's episode, we welcome Angela Amiro to the show. Angela is a therapist at the Center for Medicinal Mindfulness in Boulder, Colorado, where she works with clients as a psychedelic guide. She holds advanced credentialing in mindfulness-based psychedelic therapy. She has a bachelor's degree in psychology from St. Mary's University and a graduate diploma in counseling and psychotherapy from Dublin City University in Ireland.
00:00:29
Speaker
For a full list of credentials, take a look at her practitioner statement and to contact Angela, visit medicinalmindfulness.org.
00:00:38
Speaker
But before we get to it, for all things Pursuit of Infinity, please visit our website, pursuitofinfinity.com, where we have all of our episodes and links to everywhere you can follow us. So if you like what we do, head on over there and show us some support. We also really appreciate a follow or a sub, as well as a five star rating and maybe even some kind words of encouragement in the form of a review.
00:01:01
Speaker
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00:01:25
Speaker
We're also on Instagram at Pursuit of Infinity Pod, so give us a follow and reach out because we'd love to hear from you. Again, all this can be accessed at pursuitofinfinity.com. And without further delay, thank you so much for listening and please help me welcome to the show, Angela Amiro.
00:02:06
Speaker
Angela, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here.
Legality and Benefits of Psychedelic Therapy
00:02:13
Speaker
So you are a psychedelic therapist working for the Center for Medicinal Mindfulness in Colorado. So my first question is, how does it feel to be working in a field that's on the cutting edge of psychology and quite frankly, legality? Does it feel like a pioneering journey?
00:02:33
Speaker
It does. I feel incredibly grateful to be here now. The journey to getting here, this wasn't a space that I always thought was possible for me. So the fact that I'm here working in it feels very exciting and very cutting edge. And I'm working with only legal medicine. So right now I'm feeling very solid in that, that that's the substances I get to work with.
00:02:59
Speaker
I feel like for all those individuals that are working in the underground space, that definitely has a place. But I feel like for myself, I would be too nervous there. So I'm grateful that I can work in the legal spaces and still be able to support people with this really, really important work.
00:03:18
Speaker
Yeah, and I mean a lot of the methodology that goes into, because you guys work with cannabis and ketamine, a lot of that methodology can be translated directly to a lot of the other psychedelic medicines out there. So our listeners will likely be familiar with psychedelic use in a therapeutic setting, especially if they did listen to
00:03:37
Speaker
my interview with Daniel McQueen, who was the founder of medicinal mindfulness. But for anyone who's not, how do psychedelic states empower the individual to work through important issues? I feel like what's really important about the psychedelic state is that it allows us to kind of get out of the head in a really important way and often into body or into experiences that we can't just think our way out of.
00:04:03
Speaker
We can't think ourselves out of a thinking problem. And oftentimes that's what we end up doing or trying to do time and time again. Um, working as a therapist, I've always loved being there with people and helping them kind of sort things out and supporting them on their journey. But in the psychedelic space, they have all the knowledge it's there and the psychedelic space allows us to unlock it and get in touch with really, I feel like a deeper, truer version of ourselves that these medicines can often really open us up to.
00:04:32
Speaker
So what kind of training did you have in order to get into this field?
Angela's Educational and Personal Journey
00:04:38
Speaker
So I have a background in psychotherapy. Um, I got a degree in psychology that I earned in Canada, which is where I was born and raised. And when I finished that, I decided I really wanted to have an adventure. So I moved to Ireland, which I adored and I just fell in love with the place and the people. Um, and my plan was to go for one year, but.
00:04:57
Speaker
I just was in love with it. So I stayed for like 12 in total. Um, very grateful that I was able to have that opportunity. And there I continued my education and I got a graduate diploma in counseling and psychotherapy. And there I ran like courses and workshops and groups. And really I was helping people just get in touch with themselves and find a little bit of compassion. Um, and decided to have another adventure after living for years in Ireland and moved to sunny Colorado.
00:05:27
Speaker
And when I was here, I was actually working within the judicial system. So I couldn't step in to this psychedelic space, but I've always been so drawn to it and so pulled to do this work. And I was able to start training and I was further really given the example of what these medicines can do. And it allowed, after I did that training, I was able to start working with medicinal mindfulness.
00:05:54
Speaker
Um, but I feel like it's been like all of these small steps that have really helped lead to being able to step fully into this field. Um, and that was just like my education through schooling, but I was also a psychonaut myself and was often helping people on nights out, whether I wanted to or not, I would see someone struggling and I would really just go over and be like,
00:06:16
Speaker
Do you need anything? Can I get you some water? I would always carry around like lollipops and chewing gums for certain, like that'd be at certain activities or different like electro knives. And whether I was imbibing or anything, it didn't matter. I could see someone struggling was like, can I get you anything? And it's just like a part of me that's always wanted to support people in these States. Um, and so I feel like it's like all of these things combined that just made me feel like, uh, you know, I'm really get to, I feel in, you know, very myself in these spaces.
00:06:45
Speaker
So your, your adventures as a Psychonaut sort of, um, inspired you to fit your way into this field. I feel like it every, those types of adventures just made me feel so comfortable in that space and recognizing that not everyone feels like that. Not everyone can do those inner journeys, um, and still be able to feel kind of solid in self. And I would see other people struggle and it's not that I didn't have difficult experiences with them.
00:07:13
Speaker
but I seem to be able to really trust the medicines and feel like, okay, there's something here. And I feel like that kind of led to the belief that I can also support other people there. If I can really believe that these medicines are healing, they'll be able to believe that as well.
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah. And that's the thing about these medicines is that especially when you have the experience, you realize that what makes them so special is that they really, really work. I mean, more so than anything else I've ever seen modality or, um, substance wise. Um, so I read that you, um, you have some training in art therapy. Uh, do you implement that into your sessions at all?
Integration of Art Therapy in Psychedelic Sessions
00:07:54
Speaker
I do sometimes I'll usually, if I do, it's usually in like integration sessions or often because the medicine work can be really abstract. Um, especially like for a lot of people, the ketamine experience can be really, really abstract. Um, and it's often maybe more of a feeling or it's like, it's not always as vivid. So some people are like, I feel like there was something here and I don't know. So I'll just get out some art supplies and be like, well, let's just draw the feeling.
00:08:20
Speaker
And it can be a real struggle. I feel like myself included when it comes to doing anything artistic, I might have it in my head, like it's supposed to look like this when really it's about, no, what does it feel like? And can we connect to that feeling? And that can really help with integration for really on any medicine. It's like, it felt like this. It doesn't, it didn't look like this. It's like, it doesn't have to look like that. If you can just connect to what the feeling was, it can help, um, make those things that are incomprehensible a little easier to understand.
00:08:49
Speaker
Yeah, I like that concept like creating art in like with the essence of the feeling, not necessarily recreating an image that you've seen or some sort of a vision that you experienced. I think that's a good concept. Yeah. And it's, I am not always great at practicing it myself because I'll have in my head, it should look like this. And it, we have to park those should sometimes. And if we can.
00:09:13
Speaker
you know, connect back to the feeling. It can also just in general help with integrating these types of experiences, you know, instead of this is what it meant and this is what it is. It's like, okay, maybe, and that would be wonderful. But sometimes we don't have that type of understanding. So it's like, let's just go back to what really held meaning in the experience. And I feel like that is, you know, that's kind of the meat of it.
00:09:36
Speaker
I want to talk a little bit about Ireland, uh, cause that's a really interesting story. So what were some of the differences between, uh, like what you experienced here and what you experienced in Ireland, both socially, culturally, and also within like the fields of psychology and psychiatry. Hmm. So I adored it. I felt and still do feel it's another home for me. Um, I really, I adored meeting the people and connecting with them and I felt like.
00:10:05
Speaker
You could kind of walk in anywhere and feel very welcome. And at that point in my life, I was also very much looking for community and looking to connect with people. And I felt it was really easy to do there, which was a lot of fun. I mean, I finished university and I was just kind of ready to have an adventure. And I got it. I got it there. And I got to meet just wonderful friends and wonderful people who we've now been through and grown
00:10:30
Speaker
so much together. Um, and I found it really interesting cause I didn't know this was the field I was going to step into when I first, when I first moved there, I was working in retail and just like, Oh, I'm going to spend a year and I'm going to just play and have fun and go out all the time. But I had that itch. I'm like, I want to do more. And the training I did there, I felt was really, really great. There was a huge focus on personal development. So like in my first year of psychotherapy training, I had to be in like
00:10:58
Speaker
50 hours or something of my own personal therapy. And we had to continue that on every year because just the ethos was like, you can't be with someone in their space if you are thinking about your own experience. And so I felt like that was really, really beneficial because even in my undergrad, no one had talked about like, make sure you start therapy yourself so that you can support other people. It was like, okay, continue with your schooling, continue your education. And I felt like the life experience I got
00:11:26
Speaker
through that and the relationship with my own therapist had just been so healing and so helpful. Um, when it comes to comparisons, I mean, I can't, there are so many differences and similarities, but I feel like I got to be there when there was a lot of really big changes. Like they had the marriage referendum. Um, there was the repealing of the eighth amendment, which was about abortion rights. And there was just so much that happened that I was there and it was really interesting with my friends and
00:11:55
Speaker
you know, that they had grown up there, just them reflecting on like, wow, this is a very different place. And to be able to kind of be on the cusp of these really important changes just seemed great. And then to move here like psilocybin, you know, become legalized and things like that. It's like, I love that I'm at these places where really big things are happening and I get to witness things that just feel very historic.
00:12:20
Speaker
So is that what made you choose Colorado, just like the laid back nature of their drug policy? No, it was a bonus, but it was not the main, it was not the main thing. Because I mean, in Canada, like a lot of those are becoming, a lot of those substances are legal as well. It was more wanderlust. Like my husband and I and our little boy, we were like, we wanted an adventure. And we had one of his work colleagues would send us pictures of
00:12:47
Speaker
from being here, we're like, wow, that place looks amazing. And so from the time we mentioned it to the time we arrived, it was like four months. So we just had decided like, we're going to do it, ready for an adventure. And I mean, the laid back drug policies have definitely been a bonus and been able to step in this work in a very meaningful way that I don't think would have been as easy to do most other places.
00:13:10
Speaker
Yeah, for sure, for sure. So going back to psychedelic therapy in general, what types of clients or what types of ailments do you guys generally see come into your, to your clinic?
Understanding Client Needs in Psychedelic Therapy
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, so much, I feel like depression and anxiety are major things that I'm in a huge amount of the population battle with. I mean, often if they're coming to see us, it's because they've
00:13:38
Speaker
You know, people are like, I either don't want to continue on the meds or I've decided I want to stop being on antidepressants and anti-anxiety meds. And they've searched what else can be of benefit, what else can help. And then there's also just so much trauma, like either clinically PTSD or just people who have experienced a lot. And for me, I just believe like trauma, you know, it, it ends up, it can often look like things that
00:14:05
Speaker
become normalized for the individual, but the outside world within diagnosed with diseases or disorders. But it's usually just a response of like, how can I be normal in this space when I feel so dysregulated? Um, and so psychedelics can really help get back to that, you know, to that regulation that maybe the individual, you know, couldn't ever have because things happened when they were so young. So it can be, but like anxiety, depression, I've seen ADHD, yeah, lots of PTSD. Um, I mean,
00:14:34
Speaker
most diagnosis we'll see. And then we also just work with people who are like, I want to see what these places are like. I want to go to these deep spaces and I just don't want to do it alone.
00:14:43
Speaker
That is beautiful. The fact that you can also use these substances like for, as Michael Pollan would say, the betterment of well people, not just if you have some sort of a psychological ailment, but you mentioned like people trying to get away from the general medical prescription model. Are there medications that, or even diagnoses that you recommend people stay away from psychedelics if they're still on?
00:15:14
Speaker
There's still so much research going into that. And in general, we try to work with people that we know this will be of huge benefit for. And unfortunately for a lot of personality disorders, these things just sometimes don't help. So they can't be of benefit. Certain, you know, like sociopathic tendencies. Cause what if someone has a really big realization, like they get in touch with this, you know, this higher creation, they're like, I'm the higher creation. And that kind of just emphasizes those types of patterns.
00:15:43
Speaker
Um, I recently had read something cause originally ketamine, they didn't recommend for, um, bipolar disorder because it can sometimes heighten the manic tendencies. But there's a research recently happening, trying to figure out like, is that true? Does it depend on the dosing? So I feel like because so much of this is cutting edge, there's just going to be certain medicines that aren't going to work. But it's also just to remember, like psychedelics aren't for everyone. They're big can be scary experiences.
00:16:11
Speaker
And I think it's, it's why we, we have a lot of protocols because we want to make sure that, you know, the people that are coming through can also have the inner resourcing to work with whatever comes up. And sometimes not everyone can, and that's okay. Maybe it's just a not now, you know, and down the line, it's something that they could definitely work towards. But I feel like, like we got so many people who turned to us or contacted us after the Michael Pollan documentary came out on Netflix.
00:16:39
Speaker
They're like, I want to work with you. Want to do this. And sometimes it just, they weren't the people that, you know, it wasn't right for them. And as we would go through things like, oof, nevermind. It's like so fine. That's okay. And it's just important to remember, like some of us feel called to do this work and people can find their medicines and other people, you know, it's just, they try to climb Everest and that's their medicine.
00:17:01
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. It reminds me of, I've heard Ram Dass talk about this, where he said his brother was institutionalized. And this was, I guess, before he went to India and became, you know, a spiritual guru and all of this. So he came back to visit his brother and he was dressed in all of his robes and all of this. And he walked into the institution and he asked him, his brother's name was Leonard, I believe, which is my last name, funny enough.
00:17:27
Speaker
He said, you know, how are you doing? Like, what's going on? And, you know, he looked at Ram Dass and he said, look at you. He said, I'm in here and, you know, you're out walking around in the real world and you're wearing a dress and a beard and I have like a nice shirt on. Like, you know, what's the difference here? And Ram Dass says, well, the difference is, is that
00:17:47
Speaker
You think that you're Christ. I think that I'm Christ, but you think you're the only one who's Christ. And I know that we're all Christ. So I definitely see how you could, you could get like that Messiah complex. Some of these experiences really do make you feel like you're connecting with that higher power. And you could definitely misinterpret it as you being the only conduit of that higher power. So how do you guys go about,
00:18:15
Speaker
judging whether or not a person is suited to go through these types of, uh, these types of sessions.
Assessing Suitability for Psychedelic Therapy
00:18:21
Speaker
Well, we have full medical oversight from a doctor and she helps. And then our, you know, our clinic supervisor and sometimes as a team, we have to discuss things as well, just to see, you know, if one of us is feeling like, you know, can we work with this? Does this make sense? It's like sometimes as a community of practitioners, we just need to figure out the best way to support the individual. Cause they come to us cause they,
00:18:44
Speaker
They want to do the work. And sometimes it's really difficult if there's something that we're like, I don't know if this will work for them and really having to reflect and decide, okay, you know, can we do this? Can we do this safely? And will it be of benefit? Because often, you know, we can just get to a point where it's like, we want to try anything to feel better. And when that happens, it's like, you know, as a practitioner, I don't want to be the person who's like, I can't help you. You know, but sometimes it's about setting back, but I know this isn't the best choice for them.
00:19:14
Speaker
And so we have, it's really our clinical director and our medical director that would have the final say on that. But we do, you know, as a practitioner, if I'm someone and I feel like I can work with this individual, it's going to be tough, but I'm willing to like be with them in that space. Then that's also half the battle. And just like in a therapeutic space, you know, I have, we have to trust each other, which is really important as well. That's why having a guide in these spaces can be just healing in itself.
00:19:43
Speaker
Yeah. Can you talk about some of the benefits of having a guide as opposed to just journeying by yourself? Yeah. Um, the benefit and ideally a sober guy, cause sometimes people, like a bunch of friends are like, I'll be your buddy, but they're all doing psilocybin together. And it's like, okay, well the buddy is just wandered off to the woods. So we don't have that same support system, but it's just about, you know, having someone, sometimes it's just about having someone witness you in the darkest spaces, you know, it's just having someone there to share with
00:20:13
Speaker
whatever is coming up because these experiences aren't always positive. Often they're the most difficult, but maybe the most profound experiences someone will have and they can feel very alone or it's only you in the medicine. And so sometimes having someone to take note of that, um, I kind of am like a scribe throughout the session. Like I'm taking notes the whole time. So a client will mention things, we'll mention insights, and then I will also draw them back to intention. So we discuss in advance words.
00:20:41
Speaker
phrases, um, things that they really would like to get out of it. So I get them to envision like, okay, the medicine sessions are done. You feel how, like, what is this? What do you want at the end of this? What are the benefits you want? And then we pick out those words because we don't need to bring in the anxiety depression. It's in their everyday life. That's not what needs to come in. It's more about getting centered on, you know, the possibilities after. And so having that focus can be really helpful.
00:21:10
Speaker
But if someone doesn't have access to a guide, find like a very nice playlist, things like that, like things that can center you back to self or center you back to intention. It's like not everyone has the accessibility and it's okay to take these journeys solo, but it's trying to have something that can center you back. Um, so that you don't get in a state of overwhelm is important.
00:21:36
Speaker
Yeah. Um, so what are the, what's the structure of the session?
Psychedelic Therapy Techniques and Experiences
00:21:41
Speaker
Like, what does it look like from ingestion to, um, when it wears off? Um, so I guess it depends for which medicine, like with the psychedelic cannabis, those can be longer and people can imbibe throughout. Um, for the ketamine, we do, um, IM, which would be needle injection, or there's also lozenges available.
00:22:02
Speaker
Um, the I am ketamine experience is like a rocket ship. We describe it. It's like you start off very intensely and then it will slowly kind of Peter out back to coming back to self and body. But with that experience, it is, it starts very intensely and people go to like, usually space. They often feel like they're in space or floating in water. Um, and the intensity, but like there's that time dilation. So.
00:22:28
Speaker
you know, clients sometimes will just report like, how long was I gone? I was like, that was 20 minutes. Like there was no way that was 20 minutes. Even like having someone to like help make sense of like, okay, well I'm going to go again. It's like, yeah, just go off into where you need to explore. Um, and with the cannabis experience, um, because depending on how much you can imbibe, usually the beginning, same thing, like it can be as intensely as you'd like it to be by just imbibing more.
00:22:54
Speaker
or incorporating breath work. And then that will also just bring you to the, you know, the edges of the universe and beyond. Yeah, it's interesting. I talked about this with Daniel a bit, but obviously, you know, we're talking about psychedelic therapy and we're, you know, we're talking about psilocybin. But when you bring up cannabis, a lot of people get kind of weird about that. Like they don't think that cannabis has the potential to put you in a powerful experience the same way that DMT or psilocybin does. Um, so can you talk a little bit about that?
00:23:23
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, this particular psychedelic cannabis blend has become one of my favorite psychedelics and like it's, it's incredibly powerful. It's incredibly healing. Um, and then, yeah, I'm like mixed with breath work. I became in a breath work session. I became completely one with the universe. I was the universe. It was me. And it was like the most beautiful experience. And I felt like I healed all parts that my soul had ever existed on this planet. All of that.
00:23:50
Speaker
And it's like, then I came back. I was like, that was cannabis and breathwork. Like it's kind of, it is mind blowing. Um, and I, I can understand the, I guess the resistance to it because I think it's partly, there's been a lot of propaganda about cannabis and then it's also the assumption of like, well, it's not a real psychedelic. Like if they were to even come to like one of the conscious cannabis circles that medicinal mindfulness has, they would, again, the set and setting is important, but the blend is as well.
00:24:18
Speaker
Um, and then I always will use the example of like, you've heard the story of someone who had too many edibles and they had to go to the hospital because they thought they were having a heart attack. It's like they weren't, but they weren't in a safe space and they're having a very intense psychedelic experience because the cannabis experience is very, very, very somatic. So you feel it so much in your body, which can be so healing for trauma resolution and things like that. Um,
00:24:44
Speaker
But I can, like, I can understand, I guess some resistance to it. It's very easy to resist something you haven't experienced. And I feel like that we can, a lot of people would kind of be like psilocybin zit, LSD zit. And it's like, maybe that's their medicine. And that's, that's great that they found that. But for other people, the bonus of the cannabis experience is the agency. You can still feel like you have some control of it. It's like you cannabis tries to show you something. You're like, I'm not ready.
00:25:13
Speaker
It's like, okay, let's do this instead. And then it usually comes around to what it wants to show you anyways, but it just feels more gentle, like a more feminine energy or something where those other psychedelics will just push you and be like, good luck. They just push you off the edge. Yep. Into the darkness. Yeah. And it's like, okay, I guess I'm here now. Yeah, right. Um, so do you guys offer edibles or, uh, is it strictly cause I know, uh, Daniel was saying you guys do, um, like vaporizing. Yeah. It's the particular blend is flower. So that's what we use.
00:25:43
Speaker
It's just this, like the onset with timing and things with edibles just isn't as easy. Um, but I mean, soon enough, we'll also be working with, you know, psilocybin will be offered with, you know, for people that are, want to experience it and we can offer support for that. Um, so it's, you know, there are options for people to get to explore these spaces, um, and ask just to be able to help them with it, which is important.
00:26:10
Speaker
So how important is actually having like a quote unquote mystical experience for healing trauma? Because I've heard different schools of thought on this. Some people say that it's all in the spiritual experience, that mystical feeling of
00:26:27
Speaker
merging with the all, but then others say that that's not necessarily needed in it. You can have breakthrough therapeutic experiences with lighter doses or not even having that type of experience at all because sometimes it can be rare. So in your experience, does the mystical experience really, is it needed? I don't think so. I feel like how anyone
00:26:55
Speaker
gets meaning from the experience is what's important. And each individual is going to ascribe their own meaning to the experience no matter what it is. So if it's a very abstract space where all of a sudden, you know, someone's mind is, I don't know, filled with a busy highway and then the highway is empty. It's like, that's not mystical, but they feel better after. It's like, Oh, I don't feel as anxious. I don't feel as overwhelmed. So I think healing can look different for everyone. And if for, for some
00:27:25
Speaker
individuals, maybe they need to heal that spiritual side of themselves. And that mystical experience is what helps give them new meaning and helps really deepen their experience on this plane of existence. And I feel like it's more about that instead of it's, you know, I never would want to judge anyone's experience and say like, ah, that wasn't healing. It's like, if they said it's healing, it's like, then it was healing. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I agree wholeheartedly with that.
00:27:50
Speaker
Um, and as far as dosing, um, do you guys usually use high dose micro dose or a mix of the two? So how, like, how does that work? Um, for the ketamine experience, we'd use like a relatively high dose for the experience so that people don't need to come all the time. You know, it's like our protocol would be two sessions.
00:28:16
Speaker
have a relatively high dose to bring on this psychedelic experience, which allows kind of a disconnect, um, between the body and mind. So sometimes people describe it as a disassociative, but that's not really accurate because you're very associated with the experience, but you're just disassociated from the body, which means you can then work through thinking patterns and emotional patterns and things like that in a different way. Um, but I mean, I know so many people who microdose with psilocybin and have found it life changing.
00:28:44
Speaker
And same thing like having micro doses of THC or CBD. I think all of these things have a place and it just comes down to the individual of what they're looking for and what they really want to work on. I think for really big kind of impactful changes, you need to do big doses of these medicines to have a really big shift quickly.
00:29:08
Speaker
But that's, that can blow out your ego and it can, you can have full ego death and that's overwhelming and can be scary. So I think it really depends again, like I just trust the individual. It's like, I will recommend what I feel like is best for them, but I also trust that what each person needs is like, there's that little intuitive thought. There's something inside that's like, I don't want a big experience. Like I'm starting small. It's like, let's trust that. Like let's go with that. Let's just go with what feels safe.
00:29:36
Speaker
because it's that feeling of unsafe that then often, you know, connects to all the trauma that we've experienced in some way or another. And these spaces, the psychedelic spaces have been misused by a lot of people over the years. And it's, you know, people, clients are in their most vulnerable places. And sometimes it's that just gets taken advantage of. So I'm all for making sure that the client feels as safe as possible. And I'm just there to support them on this wild ride.
Ethical Considerations and Safety in Psychedelic Sessions
00:30:07
Speaker
Yeah, you bring up the concept of psychedelic abuse within therapeutic settings and you're seeing a little more of that as these things start to become more prominent in our society. Have you ever seen anyone or had a client that has maybe some trauma or some PTSD from a prior experience where they've been abused within a therapeutic session?
00:30:34
Speaker
I've definitely heard of it. It happens. And because they're, this is still often on the fringes. So there's like, there's no governing body. There is no, like, you have to just trust that everyone is being ethical. And sometimes they're not getting the training that they were supposed to get. Like I have a, you know, I've been working as a therapist for over 10 years now. Boundaries are something that were, you know, one of the first things we talked about, one of the first things we learned. And I've really made sure that that's something that I.
00:31:04
Speaker
you know, adhere to, and we have these discussions on our prep sessions. Um, like we discussed, like there will never be any type of sexual contact ever, even if the client says they request, it's like, no, that will never happen in session. And I'll explain, it's like, I will hold your hand if you're having a hard time and things like that. And then within the session, I will even explain, like if I'm, if someone asks for a blanket is like, I am now covering you up with the blanket, or if someone's like physically, like somatically letting things out.
00:31:32
Speaker
And it's like, I'm worried they're going to hit themselves. Like I will take their arm and I'll help them like still move with it. But I was like, I'm taking your arm and I'm moving you through, you know, it's like, this has to be. Expressed, but I have heard of experiences where it doesn't even have to be anything intense, but even just someone like a practitioner trying to like make someone feel better in the experience, which isn't what our job is. Our job is to support the client as they're going through difficult experiences.
00:32:01
Speaker
not take it away. The difficult experiences are part of it. So it's not my job to come in and be like, Oh, let's take that out of your, out of your space. It's more like, I'm here with you in this really, really difficult place. You're not alone. And I'm sorry, it's so hard. You know, it's like, and that's sometimes all we could do, but I've heard of like physical boundaries being broken. And yeah, unfortunately these things happen and it's why training and personal inner work
00:32:27
Speaker
as well as always really important to kind of be able to examine like what boundaries that I feel comfortable with and how do I express that.
00:32:35
Speaker
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the somatic aspect of it, because that was going to be my next question. Like, touch during a psychedelic session, it really is no pun intended a touchy issue. Were you in your training, were they did they focus heavily on like what you can and cannot do what ethically you should and shouldn't do in terms of touch? It was definitely a
00:33:02
Speaker
big discussion and basically it's like, you don't need to touch anyone. It's like after there's a harm of them, like hurting themselves. Cause again, like there can be huge somatic releases and people can thrash, they can flail and I have to keep them safe. Like I don't want them to fall off the bed or the mat and I don't want them. It's also just say they get up to go to the bathroom. It's like, we have safety protocols to make sure that we can like escort them without them falling. Like there's just so much that has to happen around that.
00:33:29
Speaker
And all of these discussions, it's about all of this happening before anyone's in the medicine. So it's like, there have to be discussions. Like if you have to go to the bathroom while you're in the medicine, this is what it's going to look like. This is how we're going to do it. This is, you know, it's like, if I'm worried, you're going to hurt yourself. I'm going to help you with movement and I'm not going to stop it, but I'm not going to let you hurt yourself. You know, it's like, I will hold your hand if you ask me to, but all of these have to be agreed upon in a sober state. It can't be anything.
00:33:59
Speaker
you know, that comes up within it and all of a sudden, you know, it's, there can be things that can be discussed of course, but most of this has to be discussed in the sober space because when someone's under the medicine, it's like, we could say lots of things and want lots of things. And then we come out of it and say, Ooh, why did I say that? And why did they do that? Yeah. Okay. Now for a substance like cannabis,
00:34:23
Speaker
There's not much of a protocol in terms of danger. Generally, cannabis is a very safe substance. Ketamine can be a little different, but for drugs like LSD, DMT, psilocybin, some of those tryptamine psychedelics, are there dangers for people in taking them? I mean, 100%. I mean, I feel like there's dangers for, again, like cannabis as a substance.
00:34:51
Speaker
You're not going to overdose, but if you take it on your own, you get up too fast, you faint, you hit your head. All of these things can have their dangers with them. Right now, our team is making sure that we're on top of all of the research with as much research, at least as we can, with psilocybin to really know how can we support clients coming in? What can we tell them about?
00:35:13
Speaker
you know, any medications are on. Like there's already been research with SSRIs and psilocybin and that those don't work well together. And so there's, there's just different aspects of this, but because of the war on drugs and so much of this research was stopped for so long, um, like it's, it's, it really is this kind of, you know, this trailblazing space of really working with what is safe. And I'm so grateful that there is all this research that's happening to really examine
00:35:40
Speaker
What is safe? How much? What is the dosaging? But most psychedelics in general are quite safe. It's just about what happens when we're in the medicine that can be a danger. You take too many mushrooms, it's like you're going to have maybe a bad trip and you're going to be there for a long time, but it's not going to hurt your body. It's more about what's going to happen when you're in the medicine. And so that's why with all of these
00:36:05
Speaker
having just a safe space or safe people around, um, is really just so, so important. And the contraindicators, I'm not, I don't have enough of like a medical background to know exactly what medicines don't work well with other psychedelics, but I'm leaving that up to all the wonderful doctors and researchers who are now able to do this work. Um, which I'm so grateful is able to continue to happen now. Yeah, definitely.
00:36:30
Speaker
I've heard a lot of research with SSRIs and certain substances and usually the contraindications in terms of SSRIs are not dangerous per se in terms of toxicity, but a lot of times I hear that they'll sort of cancel out the trip and I hear of people taking benzodiazepines to cancel out their chips as well if they're having a rough experience. Now what I tell people generally is
00:37:00
Speaker
I don't think that's a great idea because in my view, I think that these psychedelic experiences need to sort of conclude themselves in a way to wrap. They have the power to wrap themselves in a nice little bow. And even if you're in the experience very deep and you think you're having like a really, really terrible experience and it's really difficult for you, I feel like aborting a trip is not necessarily the right move.
00:37:26
Speaker
Um, have you ever had a situation where you've seen someone that you thought needed to or should abort a trip or do you feel the same way? No, I felt the same way. I've like, I, and I've been there with people and they're having a really, really, really scary experience. Um, and I've just been like, I'm here with you. I hear you. I understand. You know, it's, it's like, to even, it's just like, tell me what's scary about it. What are you seeing? What are you noticing? And it's like,
00:37:54
Speaker
Kind of not trying to, again, we don't want to turn away from it. Cause I agree. It's like, it has to be a break glass in case of emergency that it's like, okay, we got to get them, you know, we got to get them out of this space. Um, but often it is, it's just meeting someone in the darkness. Cause usually it's like, and sometimes it's also about remembering like what, like what feels scary about this, you know, and allowing ourselves to try to examine that. But when we're overwhelmed, you know, we're in fight or flight, that stuff kind of goes out the window.
00:38:23
Speaker
But yeah, I'd agree is trying to just be with the difficult situations. And again, it's why psychedelics are for everyone because they're, that's really scary and overwhelming and you have to be willing to be in those dark spaces. Yeah, for sure. Um, would you mind, and I can cut this out if you don't want to talk about this, but would you mind describing some of your, uh, like profound psychedelic experiences, like what substances that you've experienced and, uh, just sort of take me through some of, uh, the more profound ones.
Personal Transformative Experiences with Psychedelics
00:38:53
Speaker
Yeah, I wouldn't mind speaking to that. Um, I feel like in the past I would have been like, Ooh, I don't know if I could talk about that, but it's, I feel like this is the world that I am inhabiting. And I feel so in my purpose working with people in these spaces. Um, and I feel like letting these powerful, profound experiences be shared and talked about is important because it can help other people be like, okay, I'm going to try it. I'm going to go.
00:39:22
Speaker
Um, so I guess it's like there was, I had like a psilocybin experience when I was younger with a very good friend of mine. Um, and it was probably the first time I experienced total clarity of mind. It's like I had been going through grief for years and definitely was in a state of overwhelm, which I was not connected to at all, just trying to like get done my degree and just focused on that. Um, and I had done psilocybin like I've
00:39:52
Speaker
didn't do like the internal eye mask. That was unknown to me, but it was more like we were just very together in the experience. And I remember at one point I did kind of lay down and close my eyes and I could see the inside of my mind. And it was like, do you remember the old windows desktop with like the green Hills and the blue sky? There was like nothing else on it. It's like, that was my brain. And I was just like, oh, that's, I was like, this is like the most clear and the most peaceful. And I could see like this tiny, tiny little, like, I don't know, like, like a dresser.
00:40:22
Speaker
And, or like a file folder, something like that. It was like a, and I just thought it was like every single answer to the universe is right in there. If anyone were to ask me anything, I was like, I would just open this up and I'd be like, there you go. Here it is. And it's like that clarity of mine, I felt like stayed with me for a little while after. It's like, I just felt much more calm and much more at ease and much more relaxed. Um.
00:40:46
Speaker
And that was kind of, even without knowing it, it definitely had settled something to me like these are healing, like something about this experience was very healing and it's illegal and I wasn't supposed to do it. And like, not that I'm like wrong for doing it, but like I knew there was a very few people I could share that experience with, even though I found it quite profound and quite, um, impactful. Um, and for others, it's been like really the last few years I've been working with the psychedelic cannabis blend and I have founded
00:41:17
Speaker
So healing, um, the, one of my first experiences, I had had something where I had never understood like how chakras, the colors, like when I'd see a poster of like a human, like some of meditating and see the chakras and colors, like, I don't understand where that comes from. I don't know why the colors are like that. It's like, I couldn't really connect to that space. And I did one of these psychedelic cannabis ceremonies and I could
00:41:42
Speaker
see my heart chakra. And at one of the meditation prompts, I literally felt like I'd been kicked almost in the heart chakra and grief that I had been holding on to for most of my life was released. And it's like things that even talk therapy had not got to for years and years and years. And I described it. It was things that had been calcified, like to my being, to my spirit, to my soul, to my body. They'd just been stuck there. And I was able like,
00:42:12
Speaker
literally felt like a, like a kick or a punch. And I just cried and cried and cried. And I was able to move this grief that nothing else was able to touch. And it was overwhelming, but not scary. Like it felt very healing. I was like, Oh, this has been here and has been stuck to me for so long. And I didn't know
00:42:34
Speaker
this, like it was, it would be this easy and not that it was easy, but it's just that it was like, I imbibed cannabis and I did this meditation and I was there. I was healing myself very, very quickly. And so I found that just that, that then kind of put me on this path, like very, very determined because I was like, I literally, I think I finished a session. I was like, this changes everything. This is a substance that's very accessible. Um, and in one session I felt incredibly
00:43:04
Speaker
healed and at ease. And so since then I've had equally as profound experiences, um, kind of with cannabis and in that way, which has been remarkable. Have you ever had like, uh, a bad trip, quote unquote, or I like to say challenging. Yeah. I, the first time one of the, like one of the early times I did psilocybin, I was with a college boyfriend and he got bit by a dog, which was
00:43:33
Speaker
very upsetting and his cut looked green and it was just like very, like we had someone else's house and again, not a safe space, not a safe setting. I had to go to someone else's house in the house. We went to luckily the, um, she was a nurse and she was able to like fix it. He didn't need stitches, but it was like then the experience could kind of change. And then there was, um, I was in, um, Amsterdam and I was on a, I was on a trip in Amsterdam and it just was like,
00:44:00
Speaker
I felt like this kind of darkness kind of settled and I couldn't settle myself. And it was like Amsterdam in general can be quite seedy. There's a reason why people often go to Amsterdam. And I've been there a few times and I've really enjoyed it, but this one, it was just like, it just didn't feel great. And I did find that like, I kept trying to come back to self and center itself. And I'd have that fear of like, I'm going to be like this forever. This is how I feel now. It's never going to stop.
00:44:29
Speaker
And like trying to be rational in that space. I didn't have the skills I have now. And I didn't have someone with me who would like the person who was with me was also feeling the same. And so it was like, I think we're also just feeding on each other's energy. And in the end to like break it, we went to the cinema and watched like a really stupid movie. And that was the thing that like, it was just this giant big distraction instead of again, with my training. Now, if I came up, be like, okay, I need to sit with this feeling, this means something.
00:44:55
Speaker
And I had no, I was not prepared and I didn't have the internal dialogue of just like, what does this mean? And what do I need to look at? It was more like, get me out of here. And so I can understand when that happens to clients as well. It's like, this is scary. This is overwhelming. It's like, I hear you. I know it is. And we're going to keep going. It's kind of, it's tricky because in life I feel like something like that happens and we're usually like, I'm out, I'm going the other way, like get me out of here. And these experiences.
00:45:25
Speaker
There's just often not an exit ramp either. It's just, you got to ride it out. Yeah, it's a skill you have to acquire to be able to surrender to essentially your mind convincing you that you're dying in that moment. And that is so difficult, that feeling of you're going to be crazy for the rest of your life. And this is what it's going to be forever. And to me, one of the first times I experienced that
00:45:51
Speaker
It made me think that it made, it pissed me off to be honest, because what it was for me was like my society has let me down in such a way that it told me that these substances were dangerous, toxic. I'm poisoning myself. They're going to drive me insane. And that's like, I had the realization that that part, there was part of me that was, uh, like looking back on, on that to inform what I was going through. And it was just very, very frustrating.
00:46:19
Speaker
But I've had experiences where
00:46:22
Speaker
one time, it was actually the last time I took five grams. It was a long time ago. I haven't touched five grams since because that's a big experience. That was that was like usually that was like my go to at the time I would I would once in a while me and my friend and my fiance would get together and we would do five grams because that was like that benchmark Terrence McKenna, you know, dose. And the last time I did it, we were, you know, we had
00:46:50
Speaker
Very long conversation. It was probably it was about 10 9 or 10 o'clock when we when we measured them out and they were just sitting on the table and we were discussing Some really really deep psychological traumatic issues with all of us and it was about 3 o'clock in the morning and
00:47:09
Speaker
And we felt amazing because we had just gone through this like cathartic experience of like, you know, talking about our traumas and this and that. And what I didn't realize was that that was the psychedelic trip right there. Like we already had it.
00:47:25
Speaker
So at three in the morning we decided that we were going to ingest all of these mushrooms and this was so terrible this was years ago and I fully blame myself and take responsibility cuz like I should have never let this happen but I was a lot less informed than I am now and I was absolutely brutalized all three of us were just brutalized I felt
00:47:51
Speaker
this feeling of all of the sorrow and sadness of the entire universe, just like inside my body. And it was, it was horrible. And I kept telling myself like, this is like, you know what you're doing. Like, you know, that this experience happens. Like you understand that when you have this type of experience, you have to surrender to it. And when I surrendered to it, it just got worse because
00:48:16
Speaker
of the preparation and how late it was. So for everyone out there, I recommend have a good night's sleep. Do not be tired and do not take them at three o'clock in the morning, please. No, especially because then like it went like what time did it end the next day?
00:48:32
Speaker
It was I mean, I don't even know I don't even know I mean we like that's a couple days gone like that's a lot Yeah, it was horrible and then and what made it worse was I came up to my apartment and we had left our dog up here And I came up and there was shit all over the floor and it just it made it worse because we were still in that experience and you're just seeing your life in shambles or what it feels like and she literally shit and
00:48:57
Speaker
everywhere. Exactly. Exactly. Internally, externally, everything's the best.
00:49:03
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, since then I've had quite a few, uh, experiences, usually four grams is the dose I go for now. It's a little less intense. Um, and they, you know, I've had so many beautiful experiences since then. And, uh, you know, honestly, I think I've, I learned the most from that experience and it gave me this sense of respect for the substance that I couldn't have had without it showing me how intense and how dark it can get. Yeah. Well, and is psilocybin your medicine of choice?
00:49:32
Speaker
It is. Yeah. And I, I like DMT a lot as well, but there's just a very special place in my heart for psilocybin. It just, I love it so much. Yeah. And I feel like I'm so grateful that it's, you know, that a lot of these natural medicines are becoming legalized because they can be so healing and they can be so powerful, even when it's like this bad
Intentions and Legalization of Psychedelics
00:49:57
Speaker
trip.
00:49:57
Speaker
Because it is, it's just showing us these parts of ourselves that we usually try to hide from ourselves. And it's like, we kind of know it's there, but we just, it's like, I can't, I don't want to. And then it comes up in the trip. But I always use the example of like, often, even when I was younger and often lots of people, it's like, you know, they have whatever substance it is and they're like, I want to get effed up. And it's like, that's their intention. And then they're shocked when they have like a really effed up time.
00:50:23
Speaker
So it's one of those where it's like, well, that was literally your intention. That was what you had decided you wanted to have happen. And then it happened. And there's, I remember like in university hearing about so many people, it's like, Oh, I can't use that. I have a bad trip. I can't do that. I have a bad trip. And instead of looking at their own experience, it was like, well, it's this substance is the problem. It's not my own experience, my internal experience or things like that. So it's even,
00:50:47
Speaker
Cause I used to then have that fear of like, well, I don't want to use that cause that sounds scary and terrible. And then I'd have a great experience. It's like, Oh, okay. It's obviously person to person. And I feel like that understanding now is also, it's like, I mean, as a like therapist guide, like I can help support people cause they'll, I have a few sessions with them before we're in the medicine, before they're actually taking anything. So they usually come to me with like, this is what I want to work on. This is my past experience. This is what might come up.
00:51:15
Speaker
And so it's just being able to dialogue with them like, okay, and if this comes up, how do you want me to support you or what do you want? You know, it's like things like that that can really help where when we do this solo or like that, if you've been able to work through so much of an experience, like, okay, well, maybe let's integrate that huge conversation we have and then take the medicine. Absolutely. Yes, exactly. And identifying when is the right time to, to put it off because there's no rush. There's no rush.
00:51:45
Speaker
Yeah, these things have been around since before us and they'll be here when we're gone. Yes, they will. Yes, they will. And hopefully they will be here in a higher capacity as the years go by and the years go by. Yeah. So have you seen the legality, at least in Colorado, it seems like they're moving in the right direction. Have you seen other places moving in the right direction, like Oregon? I've noticed Oregon. I've also noticed in Canada, I believe Alberta has just legalized psilocybin as well.
00:52:14
Speaker
I think BC is going that way. Canada in general seems to be slowly moving in that direction. In the States, I would just be hoping more so that insurance companies would start covering this type of treatment. I feel like the legality is one piece, but psychedelics are already legal. We have them that are already legal and it's about making them much more accessible. The problem is that they're just not. I am all for more of these things becoming legal, but no matter what, people are going to use them.
00:52:43
Speaker
I'm gonna like they can it's more I feel like I'm my I would love for these things to become more accessible to everyone so that they have the opportunity to use these things because. It's just not always something that everyone can afford the cost of the cost because it takes a team of people it takes years of training all these other things to kind of make it if you want to work with certain you know centers or guides.
00:53:07
Speaker
And I feel like if, ensure, if we can get insurance to cover even ketamine treatments, it's like, that's something that's been proven to work for anxiety and depression. It's not everyone's substance and that's fine, but for those that want it, I just hear so often it's like, I wish I could, but their ketamine clinics are expensive. And so I'm hoping that I would love to see accessibility become also more at the forefront as well as legality. Like we can have both. Wonderful. Like let's get that going. But I think it's like, why don't we just also make what we have readily available
00:53:36
Speaker
accessible to people who really need it. And something else I'd like to see is funding going into like places that you wouldn't normally expect, but are very, very important. Like to me, if you're going to have like a psilocybin session.
00:53:55
Speaker
I feel like when you come out of that, it's going to be very important to your process of integration if your support system is also trained in a way where they can support you as opposed to look at some of the things that you might be saying or doing and saying, Oh, you've gone crazy and all that. So I feel like there should be some money put into training and integrating the support system of the client as well. Yeah, 100%. I think there needs to be an entire
00:54:24
Speaker
system set up for this and maybe give it a few years and there will be because there is a market for this. There is research going into this, like MAPS has been doing this work for ages and they found they can pretty much cure PTSD and I believe successions with MDMA, which is again, remarkable. Like that's absolutely phenomenal, but it's like, will insurance companies cover that type of treatment? Cause there's so many, I know so many, we've worked with clients who had been turned away from, from being able to be part of that trial. And they felt like they really.
00:54:54
Speaker
needed it. And so it's like, if these things are not made more accessible for people, it's like we had there is a mental health crisis, like we can't deny it. And it's not a new thing. It's just people are talking about it now. Like it's, it's always been an issue. I feel like COVID did bring a lot of it to the forefront for people because, you know, they were locked in their houses and a lot of people turn to whatever they could to cope and realize like, Ooh, maybe I don't have great coping mechanisms. And so now it's like, people that
00:55:21
Speaker
are able to speak about their emotions. And, you know, we're from a generation of people that have been taught, like it's also okay to talk about our emotions and talk about our experiences. So I don't think this mental health crisis is a new thing. I just feel like it's actually becoming much more prevalent because people are talking about it and we need support for it. We need accessibility for whatever works because not everyone can handle antidepressants or anti-anxiety meds. There can be lots of side effects with them. You know, it's like if we could make these,
00:55:50
Speaker
these different substances easier for people to experience, to integrate from, like all of that would be so helpful. And another part of accessibility, I think that may become a problem is like some of these large companies who are trying to patent distribution methods and things like that, the compass pathways. So, I mean, the way I see it going, at least in my like,
00:56:17
Speaker
you know, ideal world is when people start to really see like in a viral way how effective these substances are, then they're not going to need to go and pay maps $3,000 to have an MDMA session or, you know, pay compass however much they're gonna they're gonna charge for this psilocybin sessions, they can just go get it themselves or they can even easier they can grow it the same way that that
00:56:42
Speaker
When cannabis became legal in particular states, you see that they're allowing people to grow. And I think that's what's going to happen, in my opinion. That's what I see the future as. But I could definitely see an issue with a lot of these companies trying to patent certain things. Yeah. And the difficulty is just...
00:57:04
Speaker
making it so that, I mean, they can patent whatever they want, but it's, you know, we even like, look at the cost of insulin, like it's free in Canada and it's, you know, so expensive here. So there's just, people are going to, we live in a consumer driven society, so they're going to be consumers. So it's, it's also about, you know, figuring out how to make these things, how to offer them, like in the, in the next couple months, I'm going to be doing like group ketamine experiences to try to make it more accessible for people.
00:57:32
Speaker
Um, so they don't have to pay like the one on one costs. It would be like, so they also, you also get them a sense of community. Cause like these experiences doing them together. It's like, whoa, we just went to space and back as a group. It's like things like that can be really powerful. So we're trying to do whatever we can to also help with the accessibility because, you know, we want to be part of the solution as much as possible, but it's like having doctors and, you know, insurance and liability, all these other things. It's like, it's.
00:58:02
Speaker
It's a bummer because all of these things end up costing money. Like I would love to just run a retreat center wherever it just comes for free, donates, whatever, you know, donate time money. It's like have a barter system or something. And maybe one day I'll be able to do that. Um, but yeah, it's a real, I just wish these things could be experienced. Like if someone, if, if everyone on the planet could have like one profound psychedelic experience, we'd be living in a very different world. It would just be a completely different space. Um, so it would just be nice if that was an option for anyone and everyone.
00:58:32
Speaker
Yeah, I heard, uh, Graham Hancock, he had a quote where, and he says it all the time. He says a prerequisite for, uh, whether or not you can run for president of the United States should be, should have 12 ayahuasca ceremonies first.
Broader Impacts of Psychedelics on Society and Leadership
00:58:47
Speaker
And that I'm on board with that. Yeah, that's a lot, but I'm on board with that. If you're going to run the world or run the world, get in there, get in there and do that work.
00:58:57
Speaker
I mean, I feel like that would be good for most, it's the same, like, it's really interesting because as a parent, I feel like there's like, that's a psychedelic experience in itself. Like to all of a sudden I have to like raise the most complex being on the planet, you know, and try to do it without being too traumatizing. And it's like that in itself can be a psychedelic experience. But I feel like thanks to my work with psychedelics, like I'm a better parent. I'm more patient. I'm more present.
00:59:22
Speaker
It's like, because all the baggage, it's like that I brought with my, from my own childhood. It's like, I've been able to work through in very interesting and new ways. Um, and I think it's something that before I was a parent, like no one told me, you know, it's like, you'll probably get emotionally triggered by your child because you'll also see yourself at certain ages where it's like, you'll see them be like, I remember that age. It's like, Oof, that's what happened to me at that age. Or that was my experience at that age. Um, and so it's interesting cause I feel like,
00:59:51
Speaker
You know, I really do believe psychedelics can be healing in so many different ways and so many different facets of life. So yeah, it'd be all for, I mean, 12 is a lot, but I think to be president, that's fair enough. I think even just to be a person, we should have to have a couple different, you know, big life changing, profound experiences. Yeah. It seems that rites of passage are like a thing of the past in our culture. They don't really exist anymore.
01:00:14
Speaker
But Angel, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you coming on. I just have one more question as we wrap up. And so how has seeing the healing potential of psychedelics and seeing all these clients that you've seen heal in profound ways, how has that changed you as a person and the way that you look at the world? Oh, I love that question.
01:00:43
Speaker
I mean, I feel like I have always believed in the healing power of the individual. Like if they've come to see me just even as a therapist, there's something in them that wants to change, that wants to be different, that wants to move forward. And I feel like what's always astounded me and like been really powerful for me is watching people who have been through just the most traumatic, overwhelming
01:01:13
Speaker
Horrific life experiences and how at the end of the day they are still kind generous wonderful people who are still trying their best and who are like trying to give themselves to those around them and so I've always I found that I just find that it makes me want to be better because you know, I just see people who have been through so much and
01:01:41
Speaker
They want to be better. And it's like me too. I want to heal. I want to heal for me. I want to heal for them. I want to heal for the planet. Cause I feel like the ripple effects of that earth is always remarkable because someone starts to heal themselves. Then they're in their circle. They're like, what's different? What did you do? Then they'll share. And like the next person's like me too. It's like, that's different. What did you do? And it's like, it just kind of, it's like, I feel like it's the only way like healing each individual person is the only way we'll be able to change the whole world. So I feel like watching.
01:02:11
Speaker
these people and all the people I work with heal just makes me want to heal and makes me want to be the best version of myself so that I can help other people want to be the best version of themselves. It's genuinely an absolute honor to get to do the work that I do, to be with people in their most powerful moments, like in their most sometimes vulnerable spaces. It's an absolute honor to get to be there with them and I feel
01:02:40
Speaker
Just so grateful that that's what I get to do with my everyday life. It's wild. If people want to find you, where can they find you? So I'm on Instagram at altered healing, or you can find me at medicinal mindfulness and I'm a therapist and guide there. Um, yeah, happy to chat. We do intake calls that are free. If anyone wants to chat, even just to see like our psychedelics right for me, are these ones right for me? I also just like to talk.
01:03:08
Speaker
So if you just want to chat to see how we can help or how we can work together, I'm happy to do that. Awesome. Angela, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much, Josh. It was lovely.
01:05:52
Speaker
you