Introduction and Breathwork Experience
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to pursuit of infinity. Minutes before we started recording this episode, Joe and I did a short breath work session, which was my first time ever trying one of these exercises. We start this week's episode by discussing how it felt and what exactly is happening when we do breath work of all sorts.
00:00:18
Speaker
The conversation then evolves into the topics of religion, rites of passage, the integration of spirituality into modern culture, and much more. But before we get to it, if you like what we do and you want to support the show, we really appreciate a follow or a sub as well as a five star rating and maybe even some kind words of encouragement in the form of a review.
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Breathwork's Emotional and Physical Impact
00:01:43
Speaker
We just did a breath work exercise and this was the first time you've done this exercise, Josh. So tell me what you think about it for your first time trying this.
00:01:55
Speaker
I like it. So it's like an intense sort of exercise of different breaths at different paces and holding your breath at certain spots within the method. And it's interesting, like my hands are like real tingly right now. And I feel.
00:02:14
Speaker
Like we were saying earlier, you, you called it a reset at any time of the day. You said you can use breath work like this as a reset. And that's what it feels like. It does feel like, I feel like a different person than I was before I did it.
00:02:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's incredible. And I've been doing this for a while now because if you go onto YouTube, you can find like countless different breathwork exercises. And the one we just did, it only takes about 10 minutes. So like the short ones like that, I'll use throughout the day and I'll do it throughout the day. And it's like, it resets everything like from your emotions to the whole way your body feels. Um,
00:02:56
Speaker
So I, I use that a lot. Yeah. All the things that I was thinking about before we did it and all like the kind of emotional baggage that I had attached to me throughout the day. Cause it's evening right now. It's all gone. Like it all just went away. I forgot about it. It's so strange. Yeah. It puts you in the moment. And what I've noticed, and I'm sure you can attest to this after doing it, um,
00:03:22
Speaker
It leads perfectly into meditation. Like after I do the breath work, the natural thing for me to do is meditate, which is great because since I started doing the breath work, I've started meditating more because normally meditation is like very unnatural for me just to like sit and it's hard sometimes, you know?
00:03:44
Speaker
So you have to force yourself to do it. But with the breath work, after doing it quite a bit, I enjoy doing it because I know what it's going to do and it works every time it works great. And then it puts me into a natural state of just clearing my mind and just sitting there. So I found that breath work is not only a great tool just to reset and all that, but it's also made me meditate.
00:04:15
Speaker
at least like three times as much as I used to. Cause like every time I, at the very least I'll meditate for 10 minutes after I do a breath work.
00:04:23
Speaker
But sometimes I'll sit there for a half hour or longer, you know, cause it's just easy. And, and it's, it's interesting cause it shallows your breath. So like you're in the meditation and you're even more still than like, than you would normally be. So I, I love
Influence of Wim Hof and Advanced Breathwork Techniques
00:04:39
Speaker
it. And, uh, yeah, it's just like, kind of like a Wim Hof method, Wim Hof. So you're breathing in, doing stomach breathing and exhaling like just deep and kind of long. And then, uh,
00:04:52
Speaker
then you do some box breathing which is Inhaling for five seconds holding for five seconds exhaling for five seconds holding for five seconds, etc. So that's basically the gist of it. But um Yeah, I I don't know. I just love I love the breath work it I started doing it a couple months ago Maybe like I don't know maybe two months I'm not sure but it's really helped me and changed me a lot and it makes you feel better and
00:05:19
Speaker
And I don't know the science behind all this stuff, but it, you know, supposedly has like many physical benefits to like, to your body, to your brain. People can, they claim to like, have healed themselves through breath work. Like Wim Hof is, he's the guy when it comes to that. He's, he, he swears by it. But, um,
00:05:41
Speaker
Yeah, I'm glad you liked it because I wanted you to try it. Um, cause I knew after you tried it, it would become a part of your life because that's what happened to me. I was like, you know, I'm just gonna give this a try. And it basically instantly became a part of my life. Yeah, it's quite interesting.
00:05:58
Speaker
Because it feels like a cardiovascular workout as well, which I think is an interesting part of how you said it connects into meditation very well. Because I feel both charged and relaxed at the same time, which is the perfect.
00:06:15
Speaker
state to be in for meditation or really for anything for that matter cuz like you said you feel more still and even now just like sitting here i feel. More still than i was i want to ask you what i felt myself while we were doing it i was like grabbing and grasping my knees.
00:06:36
Speaker
Did you do that in the beginning too? Like as I'm breathing in, I like grab my knees. I don't know what it is. Cause my, like I was sitting on my butt and my, my hands were just on my, like my legs. I got like almost on my knees a little bit and I kept like grabbing them. Um, I, that's not something that happens for me, but, um, sometimes what I guess that may have happened to me now I'm thinking about it. Cause you get that tingly feeling in your hands.
00:07:05
Speaker
I do this other breathwork exercise too. We did a short one. We did one that's a little longer. I do one that's a little longer sometimes and it's a little more intense.
00:07:19
Speaker
I, the last time I did it, I had my whole body with that tingly feeling. It was like very intense. And even while, while doing it, I was like, my hands were involuntarily moving. It was just, it was an insane experience. So I want you to try that
Breathwork and Psychedelic Experiences
00:07:37
Speaker
one too. Cause I think, I think you'll be, uh, you'll be pleased with that one.
00:07:41
Speaker
Yeah, I wanted to explore more methods, more intense versions as well to try to, cause they, in the beginning of that video, the guy says you can release DMT through doing this. And if anybody says they can release DMT endogenously, I'm going to be interested. So I'd like to see what that's all about because I mean, who knows if that's possible.
00:08:04
Speaker
Yeah, I've had so far with my breathwork, I've I could see how that would be possible. And there's so many different techniques and it gets very advanced. But I could I've had feelings that make me believe that it's possible. I don't know how intense it could be. Like I doubt it's like smoking DMT, but I've got feelings that I think
00:08:27
Speaker
that make me think that it could happen. Um, I did get some like close eye visuals with the one breath work actually. And, um, I just saw like a human eye, like a big human eye, just one, like right in the center of my vision. And then it's just crazy. And then from that I meditated.
00:08:48
Speaker
and I was getting all sorts of crazy closed eye visuals like just strange stuff nothing like too psychedelic looking but like it was like my mind was just playing random movies it was very strange but I was having like closed eye visuals with it it was pretty interesting so I think a lot is is possible with breath work I want to try the uh
00:09:12
Speaker
holotropic breathing? Yeah, I would love to try that too. That's probably pretty intense and harder to do. Like what we just did is pretty laid back and you can do it at any point in the day for 10 minutes. If you just YouTube DMT breath work, there's like a ton of videos from beginner stuff to advance. And yeah, some of them are nice and short. And those are the ones I like to do just throughout the day.
00:09:42
Speaker
If you can think of like the most intense version of breath work that you can do, and then do that for like, at some points, a half hour or two, an hour long, that's sort of like the holotropic method. And the holotropic method is not just a method of breathing itself, but it's like a method of, um, your environment, like your set and setting you, you have somebody who's with you, like you don't do holotropic breath work by yourself. You do it with someone who's like a.
00:10:11
Speaker
Not it's like a guide or a sitter, you know, they're there to make sure you're cool and you're all right. Um, and you do it for a long period of time and people sometimes report that they have experiences on par with psilocybin ayahuasca, things like that. I always found that unbelievable, but.
00:10:29
Speaker
It's like, I've heard it from so many people, you know, from, you know, if you, uh, listen to the podcast psychedelics today, or you, you know, take any of their courses or talk to them. Like they are proponents of breath work and they've worked with people who are within, uh, the Stan Groff lineage, who was the guy who created it essentially, or not created it, but because breath works ancient, he essentially put breath work into a container for therapeutic gain.
00:10:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I've heard that that is I've also heard that that type of breath work is like akin to tripping on a psychedelic and I was I didn't know much about it. I just heard that, you know, it can be psychedelic.
00:11:14
Speaker
And I was just going to do it, uh, do it one day. I was going to try it. And then the more I looked into it, they're like, no, don't just do it by yourself. Have a sitter there. And from my experiences taking psychedelics, I know to at least take that warning seriously. You know, I know what is possible and why you need a sitter for these types of things. And, uh, people are like,
00:11:39
Speaker
I've heard reports of people having crazy like emotional breaks during this, like, like crying and, you know, full blown visuals and, you know, body sensations, all that. So I do want to try that sometimes. But from what, what I know about it is, which isn't much, is I think you sometimes have to sit there and do this like intense breathing. And I would, from what I know, you lay down.
00:12:05
Speaker
you lay down while doing it. And sometimes you have to do this intense breathing for like an hour, two hours, three hours, like just some crazy amount of time and then it'll just happen.
00:12:16
Speaker
So it's not like an easy thing if to work for it. And that's the thing about breath work. And I've noticed this, like the more I've been trying to do more advanced stuff, it does, it is work. And after you get into it, I've noticed, I know that the, I know, I'm aware of the benefits from doing it so much. So it doesn't feel as much like work now, but, um, certain exercises it, like you were saying, it's kind of like a cardio cardiovascular exercise and it's pretty intense. So.
00:12:45
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I, I love breath work. And ever since I just tried it one day, it became a part of my life. I love that aspect of it though, because I'd love working out and to think that I could kind of have like a good cardiovascular workout without having to go somewhere and go to the gym or something is pretty cool. And I can kind of trip out at the same time. Best of both worlds. Yep. And also it, like I just said before, it leads into meditation perfectly.
00:13:14
Speaker
So I bet now you will probably increase your meditation by just doing this because that's what happened for me. Yeah, because usually I just meditate at night before I go to bed like while I'm in bed, which isn't really a good way to meditate because it's like you're doing it when.
00:13:32
Speaker
It's like, you're not setting time aside to like intentionally meditate. It's like, Oh, I'm in bed. So now I'm going to like close my eyes and meditate before I go to sleep. It's not really advisable. I don't think it's a good way to do it because it hasn't really worked very well for me, unless I'm really like, uh, including a lot of cannabis with it. Then it's great. Depending on, you know, where I'm at and what I'm doing, but.
00:13:54
Speaker
Yeah, I know what you mean. Um, I, I do the same thing kind of, but honestly, since doing this, doing like different breath works, it's kind of like rejuvenated my desire. And it's cool because you do like, you'll try a new, uh, breath work routine.
00:14:14
Speaker
And then you want to meditate after because you're like, Oh, I want to see how this feels because like you get different feelings and different like releases like, you know, you could have like, like an emotional release. It's just, it's very interesting. And to me, I found it just insane that we have this ability at all times. It's something that
00:14:35
Speaker
every person has, and I would say 99% of people don't do. I think this is the type of thing that could change people, like really change them. But nobody tells you that it's possible. I kind of even found it laughable. Like, I would say years ago, I probably would be like, Oh, you're just a hippie doing breath work when now I'm realizing it seems like a fundamental part of being human almost the whole
00:15:03
Speaker
breathwork, meditation, all this stuff that kind of has a weird connotation linked to it. I think it should be, for me, definitely, and I could think for others, it's something that is so human. It's something I think
00:15:21
Speaker
that would help a lot of people with their mental health issues and things like that. Um, cause there's so much, you know, mental health stuff going on in our society and there's nobody really putting certain things forward that I think could really help like meditation and breath work. Nobody's doing it. I think if a lot of people tried it, they would realize that it kind of
00:15:49
Speaker
Like I was saying, it's a reset. It'll take you, if you're in a bad spot, it takes you out of that spot. Just like the motivation to start doing it. Yeah. It seems like the hippies were right about a lot more than anybody gives them credit for.
Evolution and Critique of Christianity
00:16:05
Speaker
But that's the thing. It's like, for some reason, all this stuff is attached to hippies.
00:16:11
Speaker
from probably the 60s and all that, when the truth of the matter is this is linked to the ancient people that we are so infatuated with. As a culture, we love ancient Egypt and all these mysterious cultures. This is stuff that they would do. This has been around for thousands of years.
00:16:36
Speaker
But they leave this stuff out when they talk to you about it because it almost seems like a concerted effort to not get you to explore these things for yourself. Maybe because we're so Christianized as a nation that everything that we do sort of drives us and directs us toward being involved in like a monotheistic cultish type of, I mean, I don't mean to offend anyone who's
00:16:59
Speaker
you know catholic or christian but it just seems structurally that that's sort of what it is and what it's become. I do think that what christianity was is beautiful and what and jesus what he has to say is amazing the bible is the greatest work of art probably in the history of humanity. But the structure of religion has become something very different and i guess in order to push that narrative.
00:17:23
Speaker
You can't really teach people about breathwork and ancient religions. And when you learn about Hinduism and Buddhism and Eastern religions in school, you don't really learn much. And what you do learn essentially is that they're crazy. And that, again, seems like a very Christian idea.
00:17:44
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. And but even it's strange because even Christianity has been completely like changed and fit into our culture in a certain way. Like after the like the 1600s, the religion was completely changed, you know, by people in power, and, you know, just the church, all that. Um, like, for instance,
00:18:10
Speaker
Nowadays, if you're a Christian, you get baptized and you just put your head in water for a second and then pop out and you're baptized. What they used to do back in the day, being baptized was a drowning.
00:18:27
Speaker
They would drown you so you have a near-death experience. So you have a psychedelic experience. They dunk you in there until you start dying. That's why that's an actual rite of passage. So now we do some weird version of it that doesn't give you the experience that's intended. And same with a vision quest. That was another big one that they did in Christianity.
00:18:52
Speaker
That's going out into the desert with no food or water for like long periods of time. And these type of things bring on altered states of consciousness 1000%.
00:19:03
Speaker
And it's interesting that, you know, we're like, it's a Christian nation and there's a lot of Christians, but, um, these traditions that I think were actually very important never, you know, came along for the ride the modern day. Um, now it feels kind of a little more culty and kind of just like, uh, to me, it seems like.
00:19:28
Speaker
It's more about a tribe and being a part of the group. I'm talking just modern day religion in general and less about the
00:19:38
Speaker
the consciousness aspect of it that I think was very important. And they stress faith so much. And faith is great. I'm not knocking religious people. It just seems that now we've turned religion into purely faith-based when they had methods to prove the existence of the spiritual realm to yourself and experience God and all this other stuff.
00:20:08
Speaker
I don't know if you can go into this a little bit, but the link between mushrooms and Christianity. I don't know if you can go into that. I don't know much about it. I've heard a bit about it. If you listen to people talk about John Marco Allegro's book, I think it's called The Mushroom and the Cross.
00:20:30
Speaker
Um, so apparently there were the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were found, um, which are ancient, ancient texts that were supposedly part of like the original teachings of Christianity. And there were a bunch of people like PhDs who were set in a group to decipher the Dead Sea Scrolls. And one of them was John Marco Allegro. And then he continued on and wrote a book.
00:20:57
Speaker
Basically saying that Jesus was a mushroom and that there was some strange connotation referring to like the mushroom and sperm or something like that. I forget exactly what it was. It was something like, uh, the,
00:21:23
Speaker
something about God's semen. It was like the rain would come down as God's semen and then that's it. Something like that. And that's super interesting to think that a potential lost portion of the Bible or the original teachings of Jesus basically revolve around a psychedelic mushroom.
Interpretation of Religious Texts
00:21:44
Speaker
And again, to go back to your point of like religion being, uh,
00:21:50
Speaker
like changed over time. If you go to any store ever that has a Bible, every single one of those Bibles are usually going to say KJV, which stands for King James Version.
00:22:06
Speaker
So this dude, King James has a version, which means he took out stuff that he didn't want in there and he revised things that he wanted to revise and added. So again, this is a very, very big structural change to the quote unquote word of God, because I mean, if you just, and also the.
00:22:31
Speaker
the Old Testament and the New Testament, these things, they're constantly being revised.
00:22:38
Speaker
To me, the only quote unquote religion that survives revision is Buddhism and Hinduism. The ones that we call crazy. Those are the ones that actually can survive criticisms and revisions because the lessons themselves are timeless and you can't recreate them or restructure them in any way because they are so fundamental to the human psyche.
00:23:07
Speaker
And I would still say that Christianity, Islam, those are also timeless. But the thing is, culturally, we don't know how to read those books because you got to, in my opinion, I think when you put yourself, if you could put yourself in the time that it was written.
00:23:26
Speaker
You know, that they had a different way of communicating. We are just completely different than the people that wrote it and the people that were reading it. You know, if it was written today, it would probably have the universe rather than God. And it would use examples of more scientific things. I mean, it's just written. It's all symbols, you know, and people are reading it like it's a textbook or a nonfiction.
00:23:51
Speaker
that the archangels, those are symbols for attributes of God. And people are reading it like, am I supposed to believe that there were literally people with wings or this and that? It's just we forgot how to read the book, I think. And the lessons are definitely timeless. And also, you were talking about how they
00:24:20
Speaker
Remove stuff like it in the King James Version like they they removed the book of Enoch which the book of Enoch has a Basically a UFO story, which is crazy. I mean it's interesting. What was What was kept and what was taken out and it's evidenced by a
00:24:40
Speaker
the way that we have grown as a Christian nation and a Christian culture, you see what was taken out. All of the stuff that gives the religion its base was taken out because it empowers the individual, in my view, as opposed to empowering the person who's telling you what they want you to do or what you should do, what you should believe and whatever. I think ultimately empowering the individual is against
00:25:07
Speaker
uh, the goals of most institutionalized groups. And that includes, you know, religion, corporations, politics, news, all that stuff.
00:25:18
Speaker
and like the Old Testament, see that was more of like basically, you know, God was clearly a big part of it, but a lot of people read it and like, oh this is, you know, nonsense because it has weird rules in it and different things that just seem like that don't make sense. But you have to realize that at the time those things made tons of sense. It was
00:25:42
Speaker
who's basically a manuscript to keep you alive in the desert when you know before technology and all the stuff we have today which is why like I've heard that a lot of it is God is kind of symbolized as the Sun which is why in Christianity it's a punishing God because if you don't abide by the rules you will be punished by God aka the Sun so and that's why other religions that like for instance the
00:26:10
Speaker
peoples of the Amazon, their version of God, also symbolized by the Son, is not punishing. The Son brings everything they need so they have an all-loving God. God couldn't do anything wrong. Why would God punish me? But you're not putting yourself in the shoes of the people at the time.
00:26:34
Speaker
You have to understand that all those rules that seem like nonsense to us now were crucial parts of staying alive in those times. And the New Testament, I love. I think that people, I think that we're misinterpreting the New Testament a lot because like you were saying about empowering the individual.
00:26:59
Speaker
You know, we worship Jesus, you know, he's like the guy, he's just above us. But in the New Testament, he says, he's like, I'm no better than you. Like Jesus is the ideal. He is what you are. You know, he is the exact thing that you are. And he says that too. It's not like Jesus was some man with superpowers that was the Son of God. And he was this perfect man that we could never be.
00:27:27
Speaker
He was just a normal man who is God realized he is God and he realized he was God. And that's when, you know, giving sight to the blind, he was showing people, you know, that they are God as well. And instead, we think that it's just nonsense because the guy supposedly could walk on water or do this. So it's all fake and none of it matters.
00:27:50
Speaker
But I think Jesus is awesome because he's showing us what we actually are. And sacrificing himself to show us is a beautiful notion.
00:28:05
Speaker
And it's funny that you, you bring up that people care about him walking on water, him turning water to wine and him parting the red sea and like, ah, that now that's bullshit. But it's like, again, you're not reading it for the symbolism. And that's why I think the Bible is like the most beautiful work of all time, because it is so symbolic and it is such a good.
00:28:28
Speaker
analysis of the human condition. It is from top to bottom. I think that's what it is, an analysis of the human condition. And if you can understand it for its mythology, you can extract so many lessons and you can read one verse for an hour, 15 times.
00:28:49
Speaker
You know, however many times you want, and you can get a different interpretation of it and learn new lessons from it. Uh, some of the stories like Cain and Abel are timeless and it's a timeless interpretation of what the human condition entails, how we are internally inside and how we can differ from one another.
00:29:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's incredible. I wish I, I want to study, study it more, be at a better understanding because I'm aware at least of the significance and how incredible the stories are.
00:29:25
Speaker
Yeah. So you said the story of Cain and Abel, which is like a, the story of like duality in my opinion, and kind of like the good versus bad with Cain murdering Abel because Abel was kind of.
00:29:43
Speaker
adored by he was doing all the right things and Abel wasn't. It's just an interesting story. And I want to I just want to learn more about this stuff because it's so much deeper than we realize like on the surface level. Like even the etymology of a lot of the words, like we just read the words. But if each word has a crazy translation and meaning behind it, like I mentioned before, the the archangels,
00:30:13
Speaker
Like each name, I don't know I'm off the top of my head, but like Michael and so and so like Michael, those like Latin translations are attributes of God. So ones like power, I don't know I'm off the top of my head, but you know, we read it without knowing that and you just think of a personified something. You think of like a person or, but it's just a symbol for an attribute of God.
00:30:43
Speaker
And that's something that we all have inside of us. But the etymology behind the words is like, I'd never realized how important it is to know that stuff, which is why I'm pretty interested in it. But it's tough, dude. There's a lot, you know, a lot goes into it. I get how people who like are like professors of religious studies in this, like,
00:31:08
Speaker
Those are the people that truly understand this stuff.
Psychedelics in Ancient Rituals
00:31:11
Speaker
It's so much deeper than we realized, just like the average person. But it's kind of fun because it's something you can dive into so deeply and it just keeps going. And there's different sects and different interpretations, different groups within.
00:31:29
Speaker
larger religions and there are subtle, but important differences between each of them, especially when you move into like Eastern religions. I mean, there are just so many different cosmologies. Um, and I mean, you can even look at Christianity versus Catholicism, like all the monotheistic religions are like similar, but they have little different interpretations of things. And when you, like you said, get into religious studies and you really see how huge of a topic this is, it can be overwhelming.
00:32:01
Speaker
And we talked about in one of our episodes the Lucinian mysteries, which was like a festival that used to happen. I don't remember the time frame, but it was ancient Greece. And there was a festival where people from all over the world would show up at this place.
00:32:21
Speaker
and take a sacrament for a religious experience and it's supposedly they were taking a psychedelic and it was something that you know everybody would go to from like kings to slaves basically so anybody was allowed to go you could only do it once and
00:32:42
Speaker
They would take this sacrament and have an experience with God. So it's I don't know if they proved it yet that it was a psychedelic. I don't know if they proved that in the immortality key or is that something else? He basically proved it. Primer rescue. I mean, he.
00:33:02
Speaker
They found remains using chemical archaeology, essentially. They found remains in the bottom of these ceremonial bowls of ergot. And ergot is the fungus that essentially is LSD. So they're saying that because beer and wine were very different back then, they weren't made the same way. So they, they are essentially speculating with a pretty healthy amount of evidence that
00:33:31
Speaker
Uh, what was drunk in these mysteries in the festival was ergot infused wine. So essentially LSD infused wine, which would definitely cause a life changing experience where you meet God.
00:33:45
Speaker
Yeah. And so, well, during this, this is the timeframe where, um, this was a huge deal. It's not just like some taboo thing or some fringe thing. This was the, you know, this was the bees knees of the time. And during this time it was, you know, democracy was created. Um, you know, all the arts, all the crazy, incredible things that you find from Greece, like the enlightenment period. And it makes you realize, and we even mentioned before,
00:34:15
Speaker
about the possibility of psilocybin being involved with Christianity, that I believe that drinking the blood of Christ is, you know, drinking, like you mentioned, one of these wines that isn't the wine we have today, something completely different. So I think that was another rite of passage to give you an experience. I mean, it's no coincidence
00:34:41
Speaker
that we were talking about this earlier, it's no coincidence that you were an atheist and in a single moment that changed for you during a psilocybin experience, your first psilocybin experience. I don't think that's just a coincidence that all these sacraments are related to religion.
00:35:00
Speaker
You can't convince somebody who's an atheist just like by speaking words because words don't do it. It's not able to be articulated. These experiences are beyond language, beyond any communication. The only way to do it is have the communication with the source itself and you can get that undoubtedly
00:35:26
Speaker
from psilocybin, DMT, all these psychedelics. So we're talking about things that have been pushed out of
Institutional vs Personal Spiritual Experiences
00:35:34
Speaker
religion. I think the
00:35:36
Speaker
actual thing the main thing is pushed out and what it's replaced by the priest or it's replaced by a person that you need to go to get your fix of God and that's the amazing thing like about Jesus in my opinion though what he actually stood for was that you are God and you can realize that and be just like Jesus.
00:35:57
Speaker
And these experiences just so happened to be the most profound of the person's life usually. And in my case, for sure. And imagine if you can, if you can promise an atheist that you can give them an experience that will prove spirituality to them through what they experience. Or I think I've heard Rogan say it like this. If you could envision a UFO.
00:36:28
Speaker
That drops down in your backyard. And what comes out is an ultra intelligent, you know, million year advanced evolutionary species that says here gives you a fruit and says, eat this and you'll know all of the knowledge of the universe. You would take that shit and eat it and you would understand.
00:36:53
Speaker
But if I come up to somebody, a normal lay person, and I say, here's a bag of mushrooms, eat these, and you will understand the secrets of the cosmos. They look you like you're a lunatic.
00:37:09
Speaker
And it does prove to you through firsthand experience, something that you cannot impart on someone with words. And I think again, that is the big difference. Like you said, they, they took out the most important part, which is the thing that provides you with the faith.
00:37:28
Speaker
You can't just say, like, that's the definition of faith in my opinion. And nowadays the definition of faith is, again, you, you look at your fix for God, which is a human being. They tell you something, have faith in that, have faith in me, have faith in the God that I just told you about. But what faith is, is having an experience that is
00:37:52
Speaker
So groundbreaking, so boundary dissolving, and so extraordinary that there's no choice but to have faith in it. And you don't have empirical evidence that says this, this is ancient knowledge from the universe and from God.
00:38:12
Speaker
But you feel that, and that's what the faith part is. It's beyond evidence. It's beyond, and that sounds so bad to say, and I hate even saying beyond evidence, but it's a more important conclusion than something that, than something evidence can provide for you. And I like that you said that because I think that we have to, as a culture, as a people, something that happened for me, that was very important.
00:38:41
Speaker
is we have to come to the understanding of what evidence is, and the limitations of evidence really, the way we take it. I think basically what you can do is prove God with the scientific method. I think if we presented it in that way to people, you could do it.
00:39:03
Speaker
But the thing is you can't have evidence. You can prove it to only the person. But the way we are indoctrinated in this culture is through our knowledge comes from appealing to authority. So it's not true if it's not peer reviewed or it's not true if it can't be written down and mathematically broken down.
00:39:26
Speaker
Um, but the reality of the matter is if you set it up, like here's, here's my method. Um, I have this DMT here and for 30 days straight, you're going to smoke this breakthrough dose of DMT, five MEO DMT. You're going to do that for 30 days straight. This is my method. And then what they're going to do is question your method. They're going to say, Oh, that's ridiculous.
00:39:51
Speaker
And that's the same thing that they did to Galileo with his telescope. They pointed out his telescope and they're like, I'm not even going to look through that because that's not, it's not legitimate. It's not a legitimate process. They wouldn't even do it. It's the same thing. But if you present it as a scientific method, like here, you got to do this for 30 days and then you can tell me if God exists when you're done. You're going to smoke it 30 times, 30 days, high doses. Bad idea, by the way.
00:40:18
Speaker
And any psychedelic trip you take every day for 30 days, I think is a pretty bad idea. Well, I'm saying to prove it. A lot of people, well, they won't have to do it that many times. That's the thing. I guarantee that plenty of scientists would do it and say that's not God. That's nothing to do with God. My point is, if you do it enough, you will get to God eventually or something that you can't explain. And maybe you're going to have
00:40:48
Speaker
problems with the word God, but you're not going to have another word. But you present it that way. And the thing is, they're going to question the method and they're not going to take it seriously. But if you just do the method, you will prove to yourself. And that's the only way to have any spirituality. You can't get it from someone else, which is why this whole system that's set up with Christianity and priests and other, getting your spirituality from another person,
Buddhism and Religion's Adaptability
00:41:20
Speaker
It just doesn't work that way. And I'm not trying to rip on Christianity because I know there's plenty of Christians that have a real relationship with God and they don't just listen to their priests, but some people do. But some people get it. I mean, you can have that intuition without psychedelics also, but psychedelics will put it right in front of your face and make you deal with it. You know what's interesting? It's a little bit of a change in subject, but
00:41:48
Speaker
I've been reading this book called Rebirth, and I'm going to be interviewing the author, Roger Jackson. And the farther I get into Buddhism, because this is essentially a book that discusses reincarnation theories throughout different sects of Buddhism. And it's funny, you know, what I'm realizing about Buddhism is that aside from its lessons, which I think are timeless and probably a
00:42:14
Speaker
pointing in a more accurate direction than other religions. It's very similar in the way that there is like a dogmatic figure that is the basis of the knowledge of all of everything. And you have to look to them for their teachings. And it's very patriarchal, especially like a very ancient Buddhist cultures, like the very first
00:42:40
Speaker
Um, like oldest sects of Buddhism are very, uh, very patriarchal in the way that they say women cannot ascend to be Buddhas. Like you just can't do it in a female body. Um, so much so as to say, I think in some situations that any female.
00:42:57
Speaker
that ascends to Buddhahood instantly transforms into a male. So it's like very interesting. And you see the same types of patriarchal and like, um, like monotheistic, uh, approaches to all religions. And I think it's super interesting that they all have this like central one anthropomorphized figure that we have to look to for all the answers and the teachings.
00:43:27
Speaker
Yeah, it is interesting, and it makes you think, why is it that way? I think it partially – I mean it's not partially. I think majorly it's just the times that they were written as far as the patriarchal aspect of it.
00:43:47
Speaker
It's interesting. It's hard to put yourself in the shoes of a human being that lived so long ago. Like it was just totally different. So to them, that just was just the way it had to be, probably, you know. And those are parts of the religion that you can see were like implemented and put in by man. So they're not.
00:44:12
Speaker
Those types of details to me are not the ultimate word of the Buddha or the ultimate word of God. And this is why I said earlier that I think Buddhism stands up to revisions. I think it fits perfectly with revisions because it's things like that that you can revise. And when you do revise things like that, you still don't fundamentally alter the lessons behind what being a Buddha is and what Buddha nature is and all that stuff.
00:44:39
Speaker
And yeah, I think revisions are necessary for religion. I mean, you clearly, you have to because as time moves forward, understanding moves with it, you know, which is why like a lot of people have beef with Islam because they never had the revision. And if you look to the Old Testament before our revision in Christianity, it was also pretty brutal.
00:45:04
Speaker
but they did the necessary thing which was create a revision in Christianity with the New Testament.
00:45:10
Speaker
And there's not, you don't really see all the dark stuff in the New Testament. It's basically just check out Jesus. Look at how amazing this person is. This is you. And, uh, so the revisions are necessary. And I think that, you know, with Buddhism, I agree also, it's very open to it. Even though you said it like kinds of dogmatic aspects of it.
00:45:38
Speaker
as a whole to me it doesn't feel as dogmatic and but the thing is like there's so many different sects which just the
00:45:47
Speaker
just the idea that there are sects is going to cause some dogmatic thinking. But it does seem like the religion that is most fitting with the modern mind because it goes less into symbolism of stories because we just don't know how to read the stories of the Bible or the Quran and all this. With Buddhism, it's a little less
00:46:15
Speaker
heavy on like the stories, you know what I mean? It's more just about the teachings, correct? Yeah, I mean, I they definitely have like their fair share of like gods and stories and, you know, mythological imagery and stuff like that. But, you know, I think really what it comes down to is like humans are very flawed and the way that we interpret the divine is also flawed.
00:46:37
Speaker
So we're just running around this planet trying to figure it
Spirituality's Role in Modern Society
00:46:41
Speaker
out. And I, that's why I don't really, I try not to bash on religions too much because I really do feel like they're on the same path. I am like, we're all trying to find the same thing. We're trying to fill the, the, the same void that we're missing. Yeah. And I think that they do a pretty damn good job of it too, actually. Um, you know, most of the problems with religion aren't actually, you know,
00:47:05
Speaker
the key points of the religion, like the teachings, it's what the people do with it. And, you know, you can turn anything into a weapon or, you know, to a mind control technique or something like that. But I think, and like I keep saying it, but especially when you look at the time it was written, how else would you convey to some guy who couldn't read, like, that's the one reason they need priests too. But like, if you put yourself back
00:47:35
Speaker
So long ago, these people couldn't just talking to them would be very hard. Like you can't talk to them the way we're talking right now. They have whole different frame of reference and symbols. And it's just I think about the way if I was trying to convey the divine into words to people that long ago, I would have to do it with stories also.
00:47:58
Speaker
There's no other way, even now it's hard to do without stories or symbols. Now we can use, you know, symbols that are up to date and maybe more scientific that would work better and resonate more with people. But then you'd have to, you know, put God into a body or, you know, symbolize the attributes by the archangels, that type of thing. And what's so intriguing is that after having psychedelic mystical experiences,
00:48:27
Speaker
I'm sure you can say the same thing, but I feel like I can interpret and understand what's in the Bible way better than I ever could before. And I can understand some of the teachings of Buddhism and some of the symbolism of the gods and things like that way, way better. I mean, to an insane degree, before I just looked at that stuff.
00:48:48
Speaker
as like fiction or as a story or like a crutch. That's the thing. People like to look at like mystical spirituality as like a crutch. Like, oh, you're just telling yourself that because it feels better, man. But I mean, honestly, it doesn't feel better sometimes because you're you're faced with more.
00:49:08
Speaker
hardships and you're faced with more difficult concepts for your mind to grasp and you have to come to terms with those concepts. Whereas if you're an atheist, you can just be like, fuck it, I'm just going to ignore this entire section of being a human, you know, it's work, you know, it's a it's a path. And
00:49:27
Speaker
even like a bigger part for me with, you know, using psychedelics and now my relationship with religion is, it gave me an enormous respect for religion. Whereas same as you, like you just said, I used to think of religion as something for dull people that aren't smart enough to use their logic and reason to see that that's clearly impossible what it says in that book. Now I respect
00:49:56
Speaker
the book or all the religions. I respect them so much more because I know that it's just an attempt to point at something that is literally that we're incapable of articulating. And I think at least attempting it is admirable and it's important. And I get why religion dominated humanity for so long.
00:50:25
Speaker
It's so interesting to me that human beings, that spirituality is a part of us. It's like a key aspect of a human being and it's something you look at other animals and they obviously were so different. But one of the craziest things about a human being is
00:50:46
Speaker
Our spirit, our spirituality is like deep within us, all cultures. Even like if you look back to the oldest evidence we have of people, there was always some trail of like a spiritual belief that they had. It's something that is undeniably important when it comes to the human story and the human experience.
00:51:05
Speaker
And it's sad that it seems in like the last century, half a century or so, that we've started to try to diminish that. And as a, as a Western culture, I'll say still plenty of people that are spiritual. And, um, but it just seems that now we're moving in a direction of like a technological age that kind of wants to diminish.
00:51:32
Speaker
our spirit, the spirituality part of life, which in my opinion is the most important part. It's the whole thing once you have like the realization of it.
00:51:43
Speaker
a good interpretation or representation of how huge spirituality is, is the whole death and rebirth concept in general. I mean, look at people like Ram Dass or anybody who studies under a guru or has a spiritual awakening through Christianity.
00:52:05
Speaker
Uh, it, they, they change their names. They say that they're a born again Christian, you know, it's a, this death and rebirth aspect of spirituality, in my opinion is a measurement of how huge of a part of being a human it is. And the bigger that void between us and that part of ourselves gets the, the worse off we are as a collective.
00:52:31
Speaker
Oh yeah, I totally agree. And yeah, the rebirth, it's... I mean, I've had one. I mean, I think you can have countless, like, rebirths, but...
00:52:44
Speaker
the further we get away from it, it's just you start to see aspects of society start to like fall apart, more violence. I mean, because the main teaching, in my opinion, from, you know, having my opinion, my like rebirth was the realization of myself, of what I am, and that everybody else is also this. So basically,
00:53:13
Speaker
And it's just like in the Bible how it says to treat your neighbor as you wish to be treated, basically. If you look at another human being and you know that they aren't separate from you, that they are you, there's no separation.
00:53:31
Speaker
It makes it very difficult and even irrational to harm them because you're really harming yourself. I've noticed now I get in way less confrontation in my life because I've noticed that if I'm arguing with somebody, I'm really just arguing with myself.
00:53:55
Speaker
it's pointless I found to instead of arguing with somebody I'll still debate because it's fun but I don't put my emotion into it and argue because I found it more interesting and better for my mind to gain their perspective to understand their perspective is just as valid as mine and then kind of absorb it I don't have to live by it but
00:54:24
Speaker
It's just it's a lot more interesting to live life in a way that you realize that your perspective is only that a perspective and everyone else has their own and that's what's true for them on the relativity of reality is you know you can't be undermined.
00:54:45
Speaker
To me, it's a lot more interesting now talking with people and giving them the respect that you would like to be given.
Oneness and Personal Identity
00:54:58
Speaker
I think that's the most important part of spirituality on a society is basically the oneness of reality. Sometimes it's hard to live every day in that oneness because you do have to
00:55:15
Speaker
Work your job and pay for your car and, you know, eat food and do all this stuff. So there's like this balance between identifying with your separateness in a way where you can carry yourself through life in a positive manner.
00:55:31
Speaker
But also understanding that you are the same as everyone else. And you can also reside within that oneness as well. The oneness should be the foundation for, you know, when you jump back on to that autopilot separateness of your life. And I think, again, that's like one of the main teachings of religion is like, it's like, always keep me in mind, you know, whenever I, I do mushrooms.
00:55:55
Speaker
Um, it always tells me like, don't forget about this. Like come, come back every once in a while. Cause I, it's been a long time since I've done a psychedelic, but it, it'll tell you, you know, come back, you know, don't come back all the time, but don't forget about this. This is so important, you know, and I.
00:56:15
Speaker
I always think about that. There was one particular time where I had it really drilled in me. It was, it was just like showing me, I think I was, it was a YouTube video and I was looking at like a sensor, a sunset or something. And it was just beautiful. And it was just, you know, give me this baseline like message of like, don't forget about this. Just.
00:56:34
Speaker
Let this permeate through your consciousness and through, you know, your incarnation and allow yourself to, you know, glide through life in this way, because it's going to help you. And that's the faith part of it. You have the faith that that experience is real because you have no other choice. I can't close the door now that it's been open. That's what faith is. Faith is not listening to someone and believing them wholeheartedly with no evidence.
00:57:02
Speaker
Faith is experiencing something so profound that, again, you can't close the door. It's been open. And I think psychedelics are the way to start that faith. I mean, not for everybody, but for me, definitely. It's so interesting, the messages that you get through a psychedelic
00:57:33
Speaker
And I wish it's possible to explain it to somebody. But some of the messages I would get through psychedelics, it's interesting because it's not like you're getting, it's not always just like words or like a voice. Sometimes like this is what made me think of it because you're saying you're looking at like the sunset on the TV or whatever, some video while you're going through this experience. You can look at an object.
00:58:03
Speaker
and get the feeling like the message comes from within you. For me, a lot of times the message is a feeling and then it's instant. And then I know, and you could just be looking at, you know, a glass of water and get the feeling of oneness and understanding everything. Everything that matters, at least anything about yourself and the very core of reality and
00:58:31
Speaker
thinking about it just makes me, you know, kind of reminisce to the experiences I've had. And you just get a feeling that emanates knowledge. It's crazy. And it feels like infinite love. And then even when you realize the love is infinite, it keeps going, you know, because infinity is you can't comprehend it. So it's just love forever. And through that love, I think that's where
00:59:02
Speaker
the knowledge comes and the faith. And you have the faith because you felt it. And people are going to struggle with this in our society because we want proof so much. If I could just write it down and show you or prove it to you somehow, then it would be accepted. But independent verification is the only way to truly know anything at all. So you have to do it yourself.
Psychedelics in Media and Therapy
00:59:31
Speaker
experience it and then you don't need, well, then you will have your faith. It's happening though. It's, it's coming and you can see it in our mainstream culture. As we were talking about before we started recording, there's this show that I started watching called Nine Perfect Strangers. And it's, I'm not going to give away too much. I don't want to spoil it, but essentially it's a, it's a show where there's nine people
00:59:59
Speaker
who sign up to go to a retreat, uh, you know, because they're struggling in life and they're trying to, you know, heal from traumas and things like that. So they sign up and, uh, the leader of the retreat, uh, is supposedly like this guru woman who, um, like saves everyone that goes to a retreat and has like these, you know, the greatest reviews in the world. Everyone rants and raves about her and.
01:00:27
Speaker
She selects each individual based off of how they can interact with each other, how they will help one another, uh, achieve whatever goal they're trying to get. And, you know, it's interesting because the show brings up a lot of the issues that we're seeing within the psychedelic space, because, uh, eventually what you find out after a few episodes, spoiler alert is that, uh, so they get shakes every morning.
01:00:56
Speaker
All of the, all of the people that are at the retreat and they start to micro dose these, uh,
01:01:04
Speaker
these shakes with psilocybin, and then they end up increasing the dosage and things like that. Um, and you start to really see an example of what can go right and what can go wrong in like the new era of psychedelic healing. You see, you know, so much about gurus and potential abuse. Um, you know, the glorification of cult like behavior.
01:01:32
Speaker
And I think all these things are very poignant right now. And there's, there's a lot that we need to investigate and get right before we, um, we really dive into this because, you know, I was, I'm going to talk to, um, a woman eventually, uh, who worked in the psilocybin trials for Johns Hopkins. And I mean,
01:01:56
Speaker
Her and I both have a very similar view of the medical model. And there's a lot of abuse that goes on, um, between, uh, therapist and patient, a lot of guru cult-like behavior again. Um, and there's a story about two therapists that were a husband and a wife who continuously over years and years and years abused people.
01:02:22
Speaker
And it's really, really unfortunate. These people were, were given credentials and given power within the psychedelic space. They were part of the maps trials. I mean, they're, they were everywhere. They're teaching people how to practitioner psychedelic experiences for people therapeutically. And it's scary to know that there's people out there like that. And even, um,
01:02:44
Speaker
Michael Pollan wrote about this guy supposedly in his book, How to Change Your Mind. In a certain portion of it, he talks about his journey in the underground when he was seeking out these experiences as research for the book.
01:02:58
Speaker
And he found a psychedelic guide that, um, he referred to with a nickname as not to reveal his identity. But if you look into this nickname, it's, uh, like you can see that it's meant to be descriptive, uh, describing a particular person who was one of these, these therapists that was in the maps trial and, uh, that was abusing people.
01:03:23
Speaker
And he says about that person, like he was alarmed by their nonchalant attitude and the way that they were, uh, toward the substance and toward, uh, people who like Michael Pollan had concerns for his health and about his mental stability. You know, this person was just like, Oh, just take the drug. It's fine. You know, if you have a mental break, we'll throw you with the rest of dead bodies or something like that. That was like a quote, some weird quote like that.
01:03:50
Speaker
Um, so that I think is a huge issue within this space that I think we're going to have to address for a, this takes off where we could experience like a prohibition again.
Human Nature and Misuse of Spiritual Practices
01:04:01
Speaker
Well, I think it's like, that's unavoidable with human nature. What this is going to do is it creates a new avenue for a predator to explore same way.
01:04:12
Speaker
Like I'm not of the belief that the Catholic church breeds pedophiles. I think people see that there's a position to be filled where you have power over children and then the pedophile goes to the church. And the same thing can happen here. I mean, it's a position of power in a sense, like over somebody's soul, if you're, you know, some evil person. So it creates an avenue.
01:04:35
Speaker
that now predators can infiltrate and do their bidding, which is scary. And that's why I feel very lucky, like you and I, because we don't have, we have each other to do, to have experiences with and discuss with each other. Because being alone through,
01:04:59
Speaker
All these experiences would be difficult not having somebody that understood and somebody you could talk about it with so we're lucky in that sense and I've talked to people that. Will say that having a guru is necessary like you need one.
01:05:16
Speaker
and then others say you don't and I'm of the belief that you don't need one. All you need is yourself and the only knowledge, only true knowledge that you'll ever get comes from within yourself. The guru can point you in those directions and then you still have to do it yourself. But we're lucky because we have each other and I don't have somebody, a guru,
01:05:40
Speaker
you know, that I have to worry maybe misguiding me because that happens a lot. There's a lot of diluted gurus. I mean, in today's day and age, there's probably more, there has to be more gurus than there's ever been. And we know for a fact that a lot of them claim to be enlightened and they're, they're definitely aren't. But if they know more than you, you might think they're enlightened, you know, and
01:06:08
Speaker
And so in my opinion, I don't think you need a guru and especially in today's day and age, it's so beautiful. I think we're just, I just have so much gratitude for the time that we live in the situation that I'm in because we have.
01:06:23
Speaker
the internet and you can watch gurus online and you could talk to people and there's so much that's right at your fingertips, so much is accessible in this space, the psychedelic spiritual space where you can learn and you could find a guru online if you really want one.
01:06:48
Speaker
But then you have to be very careful not to fall into someone's grimy little grips and try to mislead you, abuse you, or control your mind. MKUltra, they use this shit for mind control. It's not all beautiful, but in my experience,
01:07:11
Speaker
keeping it close to myself and having my own relationship with it and the people that I'm already close to to, you know, share with them and have the experiences together. I think it's the most beautiful thing. I, you know, I have to be just so thankful for that. Um, I really feel for people that don't have that. And I'm like a part of a lot of like online groups. And, you know, I hear people sometimes writing about like,
Community and Spiritual Growth
01:07:42
Speaker
All this stuff they're going through and they're like, they're going through it alone. And they talk about, you know, having the group online actually helps them and having people talk to them and, you know, help them out, which is amazing. And I think it's important something that is in every religion, which is like having a group of people, you know,
01:08:03
Speaker
I think when it comes to spirituality, it's tough to do it all by yourself just because of our human nature. And the ironic part about it is you have to do it by yourself though. But having a tight group of people to worship with or the community aspect is huge of being a human being. We have to be
01:08:27
Speaker
In a tribe, you know, if you're if you seclude yourself on an island for years, you'll literally go crazy you need people and That's one thing that I think some people can get steered in the wrong direction I felt myself doing it ever so slightly where you think that you don't need You don't need people
01:08:51
Speaker
You know, you kind of get in the zone because you like think about the oneness of reality and realize yourself as everything and you can become a little isolated, you know, from the public. But I've realized that having relationships with human beings is, you know, it's the whole point, really. It's the most important thing. We were primed for this, I feel like, because, you know, as you were talking about that, it reminds me so much of wrestling when we were in school.
01:09:21
Speaker
You know, it's an individual sport and you have to go out and you have to wrestle by yourself. It's only you out there and you determine. Whether or not you win or lose, but then you go back to your team and you experienced the practice and the pain and the drilling and all this stuff and the losses, you know, you experience that together and you experienced the wins.
01:09:43
Speaker
And I think it's a, it's a perfect example of like you, you have to go out and do things by yourself. You have to perform the task by yourself, but then you come back to the team and the team supports you and the team loves you. Yeah. That's a, that's a really good analogy. It's like, I feel I might be speaking out of turn, but I feel like this is probably especially true for men that we need not just like a group of people or friends, but brotherhood.
01:10:11
Speaker
Like a real, and I'm lucky to have actual brothers, but beyond that, a bonding, for the wrestling team, it's a very tight bonding experience. You have to physically combat these people day in and day out and elevate each other. I think that's why you see a lot of,
01:10:34
Speaker
so much love in the military like people that were in the marines in their squadron like they'll be brothers for life this type of thing unfortunately we lack that for adult men it's beautiful if you are involved in sports growing up and you have that but then most people don't become professional athletes they you know grow up into their everyday life and the only group they have is
01:11:01
Speaker
the people they work with who they don't even like. I think it's important for men to form some type of brotherhood and have a close-knit tribe. And I think combat sports is one of the best things for that.
01:11:18
Speaker
I believe that most people need that to advance spiritually. If you're having a lot of mental health problems and you're depressed and just generally mixed up in your head, you're not going to be able to really work on your spirituality.
Basic Needs and Spiritual Exploration
01:11:42
Speaker
In order to do like spiritual work You must take care of your like basic needs first. So eat healthy exercise Have a close group of people that you can be happy with Satisfy all those like tribal human things that we need and then you can move to the spirit go beyond
01:12:09
Speaker
Um, like if you're, if you're fighting to eat every day, you're not going to be able to really explore the depths of your soul, you know? Um, so I noticed a lot of times with people online that I talk to and they're struggling with this stuff with, you know, grasping some of these spiritual concepts and, uh, really understanding their true self.
01:12:37
Speaker
I found that when you talk to them, most of them aren't happy in the most basic areas of life.
01:12:45
Speaker
Um, and a good way I realized to start talking with people like that and get them to realize it is the first thing to say, well, what's your diet? How are you eating? How are you sleeping? Are you happy at work? You know, just the basic things. And I don't think that you're going to have much luck until you fulfilled those, you know, sections of your life with joy and, you know, get everything where it needs to be. I've noticed that's.
01:13:13
Speaker
probably the main problem with people in general right now.
01:13:17
Speaker
And why, when you talk to somebody, they might think spirituality is, you know, something to just brush off because they have, quote unquote, real problems to deal with. Well, it is tough when you do have real problems to deal with, you know, and it's very unfortunate that our culture and our society does not support happiness and joy. It values work. Um, and that's why it's interesting when you ask somebody, how are you doing? You know, a lot of times they say, you know, they say, Oh, you know,
01:13:47
Speaker
Fucking another day, you know live in the dream. Yeah live in the dream that that's a big one You ask them how they like their job and they say I fucking hate my job, you know, every day sucks Can't wait to go home, you know, we work for the weekends. Oh TGI TGI if it's finally Friday, you know, like I
01:14:06
Speaker
We have this weird mentality that is surrounded. Like we surround ourselves with our job. You know, you ask somebody the first time you meet them, what do you do for a living? You know, what are you up to? It's, it's always, it's always about your job and it's always about working. What are you doing for work? What are you doing here? What are you doing there? And it's like, we don't actually have a society that supports.
01:14:29
Speaker
Any other mode of thought or any other modality of growth, it's always like your growth is dependent upon your promotions, how much money you're making, how many things you have. You did just buy a new car. Is your cell phone the top of the line, you know, is a.
01:14:46
Speaker
Is your house huge? There's no structure that assists people in developing their individuality or their spirituality. And the institutions that we do have for that are tainted as well most of the time, whether it's the church or what you learn in school. A lot of people are starting from
01:15:10
Speaker
And including us, you know, we started from a position where, you know, we were not informed of the nature of
Gratitude and Personal Spiritual Path
01:15:17
Speaker
reality. We had no idea what any of this stuff meant. And we had to figure it out for ourselves. And again, I feel so grateful for, you know,
01:15:26
Speaker
getting lucky enough to start to figure out which gate to open to go down the path that I'm going down. Like I don't even consider myself, you know, it's like, uh, it's still morning in my, you know, in, in my, my calendar day of spirituality, I just woke up. Right. So I still have a long way to go, but I'm at least thankful that I'm on some sort of a path. Yeah.
01:15:52
Speaker
I totally agree. And I like how you said how you were talking about the fact that we weren't like informed on the nature of reality. And something I've realized is, first off, nobody, as far as culture as a whole, is accurately informed on the nature of reality, as far as what's being taught and most of the average person's understanding. And what I found is, interestingly enough,
01:16:23
Speaker
The most important thing to do in the beginning of my spiritual path was a whole deprogramming part of where I had to do a lot of thinking about what I've been taught. And then you got to break it down and ask yourself, is it true or not?
01:16:49
Speaker
Basically I think the most important part of starting spirituality isn't jamming a bunch of new concepts into your head, but erasing the old ones and starting from a clean slate. So getting rid of all the things you've been taught
01:17:04
Speaker
as concepts that you never verified for yourself and just get rid of it completely. Even though the culture everybody you talk to is going to still be thinking in those terms, you have to kill that and not think in those terms and then start over like you're a baby.
01:17:21
Speaker
learning about reality for the first time with a clean slate and knowing, not just conceptually thinking it, but knowing that the things that you were told as truth aren't truth until you can verify it yourself in the flesh. I've mentioned this one before, which is probably triggering is like the earth being round or flat.
01:17:47
Speaker
you have to admit to yourself truly that you actually don't know and actually not just conceptually but really know it until you go out into space and look at the earth and see it in its full shape you don't know it actually there could be plenty of evidence that you don't even understand anyway but you have to accept the fact that something as
01:18:15
Speaker
as fundamental as that, that you believe in your heart as truth, it's not your true knowledge yet. You can probably do it, you can make a guess that that's probably the case, but it's not something that you know. So I think that the deprogramming is
01:18:33
Speaker
key and I don't think you can, not that you can't, but most likely you're not going to be able to start your journey until you can know the things that you actually don't know. It seems to me like you're saying the only way to truly know something is to experience it.
Knowledge Through Experience
01:18:52
Speaker
Well, yeah, the only way to know it is to know it. So like, can you admit to yourself that you don't know if the earth is round?
01:19:01
Speaker
But if you experience a sensory intake of the earth through your eyes, where you can see that it's round, that is like an experience of it being round. So it's like, you, you can't understand the nature of reality without some sort of experience that takes you there. You can describe it with, uh, you know, the periodic table and with atoms and with science, you can describe it, but you can't know it. And I think that's, that's.
01:19:30
Speaker
where experience and where, I mean, unfortunately, faith comes in. Unfortunately, I say with the caveat that the definition of faith is sort of bastardized. But in my definition of faith, I mean, not that it's like, you know, holy or anything, it's based more on experience. So I think it goes hand in hand with knowing something.
01:19:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think that it's all about independent verification. You have to learn it and know it for yourself. Otherwise, it's just a concept and it's a faith-based belief and not your definition of faith, but just
01:20:16
Speaker
blindly believe in something because an authority figure told you it's true. People have deemed the earth to be round. You, never a day in your life, have verified that.
01:20:30
Speaker
So you don't actually know it. And the same thing goes when you start doing this, it can feel very unsettling. And if you don't have a very stable mind, it can be way overwhelming because you start to realize like, wow, if I don't know that you don't really know anything aside from what's happening right now. And the things that you have touched and been a part of everything else has been
01:21:01
Speaker
just an appeal to authority the authority tells you it's true and since everybody believes it of course it's true and then you can think to you know times in the past how how is it possible that people believe such an ignorant thing or
01:21:16
Speaker
How do certain groups of people get turned into monsters? It's because they are being fed a narrative. The same way we are fed a narrative. The easiest example for me is the view of the materialist because I've lived it my whole life up until recent years. I was told what reality is and what it was made of.
01:21:42
Speaker
and the nature of reality in time and space.
01:21:47
Speaker
And I was told all that and it made the entire framework for my whole human experience. It's the way that it's at such a deep level, you walk around and view and experience reality in this way that you have never verified for yourself or it's never happened to you. I've never, I never have proven the nature of reality to myself.
01:22:16
Speaker
And now I've realized that the materialist paradigm is not even true. And it even kind of disproves itself in a lot of ways. It's an overwhelming experience, but it opens up so much in your life. Because I remember not even that long ago, before I was really on this path, I
Embracing Mystery and Personal Growth
01:22:42
Speaker
I thought to myself like, ignorantly, just so ignorantly, I was like, thinking as like humanity as a whole, like, oh, we know everything already. Like, I felt like the maps have gotten smaller, you know, we've already traveled everywhere. We, you know, we know it all. It's like there's no more mystery left.
01:23:02
Speaker
You know, I would think back to the past and like think of Columbus traveling across the earth and finding a whole new piece of land with different animals and weird new people and all this stuff. And it's like, Oh, that doesn't exist anymore. We already understand it. We we've traveled the whole earth. And then after having this realization of me actually not knowing anything at all, it changed.
01:23:28
Speaker
my life completely. It's like everything is magic now. Everything is new. It's like being a child again.
01:23:36
Speaker
You know, you look at everything with new eyes and you experience everything differently in a more curious way rather than just looking at something and thinking you know about it. You just ask yourself, well, what do I actually know about it? And the truth is you don't know until you figure it out for yourself. And that's a fulfilling thing because
01:24:00
Speaker
Reviving the mystery is our means to evolve physically and mentally in my opinion. And it's a, it's a beautiful experience. It's been a lot of fun and, uh, it's given my, my life a new context for meaning and meaning making.
01:24:23
Speaker
Dude yeah a hundred percent and the thing is. The key word there is meaning and it's the same for me I think a lot of people. Are you know having trouble with their mental health and.
01:24:39
Speaker
their spirit in general because they're looking for meaning and they feel lost because our culture has placed all of our meaning in an occupation. And most, in a lot of cases, the occupation isn't something that the people doing it really enjoy. And that's where they're supposed to get their meeting. According to our current culture, like you mentioned before, first thing you ask someone is like, what do you do? And then you give them your job.
01:25:07
Speaker
I mean that's where we're supposed to draw meaning from in a capitalist society because you have a good job, you get the good things. But this for me has also completely changed that idea for me and gave me meaning in not just like the big picture but every little moment.
01:25:28
Speaker
And now I feel gratitude for everything in my life and I feel a real deep meaning, not just something surface level like wanting to get more money or have a new thing. It's like a deep meaning that's in my soul. It's like a whole different experience in living.
01:25:52
Speaker
It's beautiful because that meaning is attached to a mystery and you realize that reality itself is a mystery and people love mysteries. It's just a part of who we are.
01:26:08
Speaker
Unfortunately, we have forgot that that's all we're actually doing right now. We get in this routine of living life in a way that is void of all mystery, when in reality, the whole damn thing is a mystery.